Need Border Collie Info

Hello everyone,

Once again, I'm looking for some expertise from the fine members of pets.ca.

I'm finding myself in a situation I don't want to be in. I have two friends (a young couple) who have decided they want a Border Collie - mostly it's the guy who is pushing for this breed. Now, I love Border Collies, but I know they are definitely NOT for everyone...and I'm worried that this couple shouldn't own one.

They currently live in downtown Toronto in an apartment, and when they do decide to move, they want to stay in the downtown core and get a condo. This, of course, is my first problem. I've already mentioned to them that Border Collies need a LOT of exercise - and they told me that, well, they live across the street from a dog park (not enclosed, I might add) and they can take the dog every day for an hour or so. This worries me. They aren't the most active of people (which has led the guy to be quite overweight), and I get the feeling that the dog won't really be walked aside from crossing the street to get to the dog park.

I haven't yet brought up that Border Collies need a lot of mental stimulation in addition to exercise. They didn't even know what agility was until I told them I was thinking of enrolling Milo in an agility class (yes I know that sounds silly, but I swear he is the most athletic little Pug I've ever met!).

How do I either talk them out of getting a Border Collie (which I'm a little uncomfortable doing...ultimately, it's not my choice), or make it 100% clear to them what the needs of this dog are going to be without offending them. I would really like to get feedback from some BC owners, which I could possibly pass on to my friends. It would probably mean more coming from someone who has first-hand experience.

I should add that they are not at all interested in getting an older, possibly calmer dog from a shelter. They want to get a puppy from a breeder they've already chosen. I've checked out the breeder's site, and I'm a little concerned because they have a lot of breeding females (8) and they breed during every heat cycle. They've already had 4 litters since January.

This is a quote from their site:

"We breed the family pet type of border collie, which means our dogs are lower drive, very friendly, love children, and have an off switch.

Our dogs are very people oriented and have a strong need for human companionship and affection.

Although our pups do fine in recreational sports or herding, they are not appropriate for competitive sports or serious stock dog or sheep dog work as they simply do not have enough drive."

If the dogs don't compete in any sports or shows, why are they being bred, aside from the fact that they are cute and friendly? That sounds a little like a BYB'er to me.

Am I reading too much into this? On a good note, they do register their dogs with the Canadian Border Collie Association, and they test for eye and hip problems.

*sigh* another long, 2-part question from EOF. :sorry: Do your best, guys!

I don't have a BC but I do know they need TONS of excerise and lots of mental stimulation, I know a lady that owns one and she is always going with him. If she is late by a hour getting him out he is climbing the walls. you are right to try and discorage them if they are not active. BC do excellent in agilty and tracking if the owner gets them involved which IMO is important to keep this breed happy and healthy.

I am not a big fan of mass breeding breeders. IMO the dogs are not getting the attention required as the breeder is too busy. Almost sounds like puppy mill to me. Are these dogs CKC regesitered?? Good Luck and keep us posted

I don't understand why someone would be breeding a low-energy, low-drive BC, period. That makes no sense, it's totally contrary to the breed description. HUGE red flag for me. It's either bad breeding or really blatant lying in an attempt to sell more dogs. I'd steer very clear.

BCs, although lovely working dogs, are not a breed I could ever manage, personally. They require SO much activity and stimulation as you say, even with an acre of land and access to kms of woodlot for walks/running, I'd never be able to adequately provide for one. A dog like that living in a condo is a nightmare waiting to happen.

M&M - I agree that they sound like a puppy mill. In Canada, Border Collies can't be registered with the CKC due to the Animal Pedigree Act, so the Canadian Border Collie Association is the only registry with which they can be registered. But the CBCA is supposed to be based more on herding lineage than pet qualities like appearance...? I checked the CBCA site and the breeder IS listed there, but who knows how hard/easy it is to become a member?

Bendyfoot - Exactly. Either these dogs are NOT low-drive, low-energy dogs, or these people are breeding some inferior BCs. It frustrates me because my friend is someone who believes that Pit Bulls are inherently bad dogs. Um - if you believe that viciousness is inherent in Pit Bulls and can't be bred out of them, then how can you believe that these people have managed to breed low-energy BCs? He simply isn't very educated about dogs.

Anyway, thanks guys. This is exactly the kind of info I'm looking for. I wanted to make sure I wasn't overreacting, but there are enough BCs and BC mixes in shelters because people can't handle their needs. How do I get this across to my friends (because in spite of their naivete, they ARE my friends) without offending them?

Hopefully GailP or Spatx will see this and respond as they both have BC'S... The sad part is these people will get the puppy. Start coming home to a totally trashed apt and not understand why. Then the poor dog will be dumped at a shelter. All of which could be avoided if the people would just listen to someone who knows what the outcome is going to be. An hour a day isn't going to cut it.

Mybe look into other breeds that are not high energy. Hard with a puppy in condoe, my suggest hard time house breaking problems with living in a building, Mybe take them to a shelter!! Nothing opens eyes like walking into a shelter and seeing all "pets" given up by lack of education. I know when I got my boys I had my hands on everything I could to educated myself on EM's and I still look for any new info to help my boys lead a happy healthy life. I was months researching.

Aslan - I know! That's what's so frustrating. I think they really believe they know better than they actually do (did that make sense?). I don't know why they won't listen to me, but maybe I'm not being forceful enough...

M&M - I was thinking the same thing. I know what they want, so I was hoping to suggest a different breed with some of the characteristics they are looking for (intelligence, trainability, medium size) minus the energy level. Unfortunately they're large breed snobs (they seem to think toy breeds are a waste of space and "stupid" compared to breeds like German Shepherds and BCs) so I don't really know what to suggest...there are lots of poodles and poodle mixes in shelters but I know the guy wants a less frou-frou looking dog. I have shown them some Border Collie rescue sites but he has the opinion that rescue dogs are damaged or difficult to own - despite the fact that his gf's family's purebred GS had to be put down because it was so aggressive (and yes it came from a breeder)...

Oy my friends are coming across as a**holes on paper. They're good friends of mine, they rescued both of their cats, but they're just very uneducated about dogs.

EOF just because someone isn't ummmmm teachable about dogs doesn't mean they aren't a good friend. LOL, you can always copy what i'm going to say and email it to them.

Dogs are in rescues because people who don't know anybetter, wont listen and do what they want not what is best, get dogs, find out the people who advised them were right and they ditch the dog.

lol, wanna go for timmies now.

you took the words out of my mouth aslan. shelter dogs are in shelters cause the owners didn't educate themselves and then wonder why they have a "problem" animal.

Like I said look up different breeds, write down some key points. Tell your friends that you are ver concerned that they are getting into something that they might now be able to handle.

Do they have to get a puppy? maybe you could talk them into adopting an older BC. That way they can see temperament and energy level themselves.

M&M and Aslan - that's exactly what I told them. The vast majority of dogs in shelters end up there because of the owner's mistakes and ignorance, not because they are inherently bad dogs. My friends just kind of shrug their shoulders...

Mommakat - I tried. They want the cuteness factor of a round, fluffy puppy :shrug: But I'm going to arm myself with some of these responses and try again. I would really like to talk them out of getting a BC in the first place, at least until they live someplace with a yard and can commit to taking the dog for many walks and maybe agility, flyball, etc. But if all else fails, I am going to try to talk them into getting an older dog (as I write this I feel in my heart that they won't even consider it...:sad:)

My other thoughts have been to at least convince them to join a Border Collie meet-up or to come with me to the dog park and find some BC owners they can talk to. Maybe that would give them a clear, first-hand idea of the kind of work that goes into having these dogs. They've come to the dog park with me once already, and of course that was the day there were NO Border Collies to be found..

let us know how it goes, I suggested the shelter because if they go and see and talk to some of the people that work there they might open their eyes alittle Good luck

I agree with what everyone has said. :thumbs up

And, Border Collies are not a breed for a first time dog owner and especially people that are not extremely active themselves.

Here's some info for them to read ....

http://www.rescueeverydog.org/collie_breed.html

And, the related links ....

http://www.rescueeverydog.org/collie_links.html


Good luck ....and, I hope you can convince them that this is NOT a breed for them to consider. :fingerscr :goodvibes:

Hi everyone, I would like to say to all of you, a lot is true!!! I own a Border collie since 3 and a half year with my boyfriend. I bought my border collie before I met my boyfriend and I've said that everything will go around this beautiful puppy :-)

I wanted to do agility, flyball with him...but 2 weeks after I've got him I met my actually boyfriend. So a lot of things changed because my boyfriend doesn't really like dogs so he have to deal with him, and my dog too because his been beated by men from 2 to 7 months, a lot of job to do with him!!!

Now we lived in an appartment with this beautiful dog we love so much, we walk with him each time we can and since a few month's ago i've practice him some obedience trick's we play together and each morning and pitch him his favorite ball :-)

So maybe if your friends are not very active people, they can do some obedience tricks but before tell them that they have to take training classes and after practice a lot, these dogs have to learn and learn even if they are not the type of dog that needs a lot of exercises from what the breeder said. It's in the gene!! that cannot be modified the border collie is a border collie no mather what they said!!!

We have rescue a border collie and we did something with him, better than expected :-)

So hope that your friends will listen to you and everything we said to you. I hope that they take this in consideration.

Give us some news about that!!

Tell these people to read this: http://www.bcrescue.org/bcwarning.html and absolutely to read though the stories here: http://www.bcrescue.org/bchorror.html Maybe you can scare them away from the idea of getting a BC :evil: They certainly don't sound like an ideal home for a BC. And that "breeder" is one to steer clear of as well. They may register their pups with the CBCA, but they are going against the principles of the association by breeding for purposes other than working ability (purposely trying to breed out the "drive" is a detriment to the breed). In fact, I just went at looked at the CBCA site and it looks like this breeder is in violation of the association's code of ethics.
"
Code of Ethics:

Members of the Canadian Border Collie Club shall at all times behave themselves in a manner that will not bring any disrepute to the Association. They will act in accordance of the Animal Pedigree Act and abide by the bylaws of the Association and its rules and regulations.

As breeders they will breed only healthy, mature animals of sound temperament and will always keep improvement of the breed as a working stockdog in mind. They will keep proper breeding records as required under the Animal Pedigree Act and our bylaws. They understand that these records can be examined by both the Association and representatives of the Minister of Agriculture at any reasonable time.

As border collies should only be bred for their working ability breeding for appearance is strongly discouraged. Participation with border collies in conformation events is seen as contrary to the objectives of the Association and will void membership.

Members of CBCA will provide a healthy and safe environment for their animals, providing adequate food, shelter and health care, seeking veterinary care whenever such is required. Before the sale of an animal the member will make every reasonable efford to make sure that the buyer can provide an adequate home for the animal being sold. All members shall advertise truthfully and not deceive the buyer in any way. As required under our bylaws and the APA the buyer will be provided with a certificate of registration (properly transferred if so required) within six months of the sale. It is suggested that sales to non working homes be accompanied with a neuter/spay agreement.

Members of CBCA should not crossbreed border collies.When providing stud services to a dam the member will ascertain that the dam is healthy and fit to be bred. If the dam's owner is not a member of the Association or is not planning to register the offspring the member will inform the breeder of the legal responsibilities of selling purebred dogs in Canada.

CBCA members' behaviour on the trial field will also reflect on the Association. As such, members will at all times conduct themselves with good sportsmanship, they will not intimitate or argue with the judge nor will they try to intimitate or abuse any trial staff. Complaints at a trial should be directed in an orderly manner to the trial manager or other bodies designated for such purpose. Members will not subject any dog or livestock to inhumane treatment nor tolerate such by others."


The BC is such a versatile breed that there is no reason to breed for any purpose other than their working ability, a good working-bred dog can do pretty much anything you train it it to do, and do it willingly and also make a great companion. Unfortunately, some people breed BC's for "candy" colours, for "sport dogs" (agility, disc, etc.) or for pets.

I think BC's can actually now be registered with the CKC, (though I'm not certain, but they can be shown in CKC events and there is a CKC standard for them) but since CKC sets standards based on conformation, not working ability the CBCA has issued this statement on their website:

"Despite our best efforts CKC has decided to allow Border Collies to compete conformation (and all other events). While CBCA has no issue with Border Collies competing in performance events we have strong reservations about conformation showing as this will probably lead to Border Collies being bred for looks rather than work. The board feels that such showing is contrary to the objectives of CBCA. As such persons showing border collies in conformation are not eligible for membership in CBCA."

I have 4 BC's, a BC/lab and one of my other dogs may possibly be a BC/ACD mix. I love my BC's they're great, they settle (that's the "off switch" people refer to), they're really the best dogs I've ever had. BUT!!! I'm home with them all the time (except when I'm out working 2 of them as goose control dogs), we do dogsledding in the winter (plus spring/fall dryland training for conditioning), we have a farm where they accompany me around doing chores, they've done herding training, and we play around a bit at agility and disc and I often take the dogs swimming. So in other words they have lots to do. It keeps them happy and content and so if I want to spend some quiet time just sitting around they're happy to do that as well. (in fact right now they've been passed out around my computer for quite a while) my dogs have strong drives and great work ethic, but because of my type of lifestyle they are wonderful dogs for me. Although border collies are traditionally farm dogs, they can make fine apartment pets in the city too if the owners are really committed to their dog, and to making that kind of lifestyle work for their dog.

Good post, GailP! :thumbs up

EndofFashion- did you get anywhere with your friends on this? :fingerscr

Guys, this is all such great info! Thank you so much :highfive: I especially like the link to the Border Collie Warning and the Rescue Every Dog link. Very informative and might carry more weight than my own argument.


GailP - they definitely sound like they're in violation of the CBCA code of ethics. That's why this whole situation has me SO concerned. Not only do I not think my friends are cut out for a Border Collie, but they want to support a BYBer. My friend chose this breeder specifically because they claim to breed low-energy, low-drive dogs! So I don't know if I could even convince them to go to a rescue/ethical breeder, because they obviously know that the average Border Collie would be too much to handle for them! So I feel like my only option will be to talk them out of getting the breed altogether.

Mollywog - I haven't spoken to my friends yet. I'm supposed to see them tonight but I'm still unsure of how to get on the topic without sounding totally judgmental. I'm pretty sure they already think I'm a crazy PETA-type animal welfare fanatic. That's what's so hard - convincing people who aren't educated about puppy mills/BYBs/shelters, etc. that what you have to say is important and RIGHT without having them brush it off as the rantings of a fanatic. You know what I mean?

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to start the topic without sounding like I've been spending all my free time trying to prove they're not good enough for a BC? Literally give me an opening sentence! Any help would be amazing.

And thanks again for all the input thus far. I was worried that I was being too critical, but now I know that I was just being realistic. I'll let you all know if I talk to them tonight!

I don't envy your position at all. I have tried to educate 2 friends who wanted puppies... one ended up buying from a BYB and the other from a petstore :frustrated: so I don't know if I can be of much help. It is so hard to not come off as judgemental and hot headed. Just try your best to stay calm, and to let them know that you have their best interests at heart.
Good Luck!

I agree with mollywog, it is sometimes very hard to try and telll friends what to do when they have the head set on something. Everbody has posted great info and hopefully armed with it you can make a difference in their minds. Wish you good luck!!!

Arrgghhh. I know which breeder that is. A family member has also looked into them. Personally, I feel that breeder websites must often be taken with a grain of salt as how many breeders are proficient in designing and maintaing a site themselves? Or if they hire someone, how well is that done? Plus, some phrase things inadequately, to state it mildly, and a phone call and visit might be much more enlightening. Still, that said, there are other things on that site that put me off.

Good luck with convincing your friends. I'm not having much luck with my family member but the person has discovered English Shepherds, which are much harder to come by. Meaning less chance of getting a dog.

Glad you've gotten so much helpful info so far!

Just wanted to add my own experiences. Chase is BC X Black Lab and I lived in an apartment when I got him. It didn't take long for him to require at least 1.5 hours of BRISK walking a day, plus hiking or the dog park 1 -2 times a week. He was never destructive, but that tells me that I was doing my job properly of keeping him exercised.

Even though he wasn't destructictive, it was still hard having him in an apartment. Potty training was a nightmare (despite that fact that he learned faster than a lot of pups AND we lived on the main floor of the building). He was constantly bouncing off the walls and running "circuits" around the living room. Common BC behaviour in ones that I have known is to create a "track" and do laps. Do they want the pup to do that in their house? Because there's an excellent chance it will.

Now that we have a yard and Chase has a very high-energy GSD sister to play with, he is still NEVER tired! He goes and goes until he collapses. If he hasn't exercised enough that day he will pace all night long (of course, this is rare given how busy we keep him).

I love him to death and have managed him well, but he is A LOT of work. And he's only a BC mix! As GailP said, I do believe it can be done to have a BC in an apartmnet or urban setting, but I really think you have to be an active person who is truly committed to that dog.

Check out the stories of these rescue dogs:

http://www.bordercollierescueont.com/

They make it very clear that only a certain type of owner should get a BC!

I will share my experiences with a border collie, the average person would have had my guy pts or put him in a shelter.
I got him as a pup out of a newspaper ad and thought he was the cutest thing ever, and huge bonus was they are so smart.
Well, too smart actually.
Our guy bit 2 kids ( nipped and herded) attacked a woman in our driveway, jumped out of the truck window in a parking lot,,, ran over to an elderly gentleman and took his cane and nipped his hand in the process, got hit by a snowplow trying to herd it after pulling the leash from my mans hand in the yard and the list goes on and on.
I DO NOT trust Meik with children to this day and he is 9 years old. Being that he is from working stock his energy level and drive is INSANE.
He was extremely dog aggressive for the most part of his life but is getting better with that. He was not allowed in agility classes because of this
the reason for all these "problems" We knew nothing about the breed, have always had dogs in my life and all of them were exceptionally well behaved, Meik was unlike anything I had ever worked with.
After several hundred dollars spent working with a behaviorist, going to obedience classes ( had to wear a muzzle from the second we got him out of the car there because he was so aggressive towards the other dogs and people there that no one was comfortable with him in the same room as them) and finally finding him a job as a part time cattle herder ( our amazing neighbour at the old house let him work with his Aussie cattle dog whom he actually got along with really well)
We finally have a family dog that we can take places with less worry.
He is more controlled but still unpredictable.
Even at 9 years old you can not work him enough or excercise him enough, his drive is TOO high. We can literally have him doing something all day long, fetch, frisbee, herding some cows, swimming, running along side the 4wheeler, walk after walk, mental stimulating games ( tracking), you name it, if you keep asking him to do something after a full 8 hour day, he will do it with the energy of a dog who has been cooped up all day.
I couldn't imagine him living in a city, I know many people do make it work, but our guy, NO WAY.
As for this off switch that breeder is claiming... Impossible, even the most laid back BC will still find something to do if they're bored. I don't even want to get into the kind of destruction Meik did around here as a bored puppy-adult... Even at 9 he will still destroy things if we let him think up his own stuff to do.

I most likely will never own another BC, but really enjoy the lesson learnt with mine. NOT a breed for MOST people. I don't recomend them to really anyone as a first dog or as a first of the herding group.

Experiences like mine are not a rare occurance, many BC end up in shelters because it takes a LOT of time and money to "fix" one that ended up the way they are just because of inexperienced owners falling for the cute puppy and the fact that they are "so smart"

I agree with erykah that border collies are too smart at times...I've seen that in the purebred ones I know. Fortunately the lab half of Chase dumbs him down a little and our GSD is actually the one who's too smart for her own good! :laughing:

I would personally love a purebred BC, but I know what I'd be getting into and would start appropriate training and activities right from the start. Unfortunately, I don't think it will ever happen because as much as future hubby loves Chase, he absolutely can't stand his energy level and Chase drives him right up the wall a lot of the time.

And since we're on the topic, don't let your friends fall for Australian Cattle Dogs/Heelers either! They're like BCs X 10!!!!! I won't even bother going into the trouble a former friend of mine had with hers after stupidly taking pity on one and living in an apartment with it. I think that poor dog is miserable to this day (thus it's a former friend).

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to start the topic without sounding like I've been spending all my free time trying to prove they're not good enough for a BC? Literally give me an opening sentence! Any help would be amazing.

And thanks again for all the input thus far. I was worried that I was being too critical, but now I know that I was just being realistic. I'll let you all know if I talk to them tonight!


Just wanted to wish you good luck :fingerscr :goodvibes: ....perhaps you could print off this page and take it with you. :thumbs up

I hope this isn't starting to sound like a BC-bashing thread (I personally don't think it does) but they definitely aren't for everyone!! My sister has 2 BCs. One, she had since she was a puppy, and she is VERY active and intelligent- she actually just made it to Nationals for agility!!! However, my sister keeps her very active- daily runs, agility/ obedience practice, hiking, long frisbee/ fetch games in the backyard etc.
A couple of years ago, my sister rescued another BC. He was 3 years old at the time, and had been chained up in someone's backyard, was frostbitten on his nose, had an enzyme deficiency, and the owner was looking to give him away because "he barked too much" :wall: :wall: Luckily my sister took him in, and he now leads a happy life with her. Also a very active dog but due to all the time he was chained up and alone, he has learned to amuse himself by CONSTANTLY jumping at his shadow or any reflection (he has punched a hole in the drywall pouncing at a shadow), chasing shadows of birds, or spinning if there is a ceiling fan in the room. He My sister has tried to break him of these unhealthy habits but has had no luck. Fortunately she is content to have him as a companion and not an agility prospect. So he is a prime example of what can happen if you don't stimulate these dogs on a DAILY basis. BCs are not for everyone. I really hope your friends realize this before they buy!!!! (And don't even get me started on a rant about BYBs! :frustrated:)

EndOfFashion - I just did some searching and I think I know which breeder you're talking about. All I can say is :eek: :wall::wall::wall: They've already had 4 litters this year with two more on the way. Of course if I'm right and this is the breeder, you may not have to worry about your friends getting a pup there. They might not qualify based on what you said in your first post about the guy being "quite overweight". On the website I went to, on the FAQ page it has what kind of homes they like to place their pups in, but also what kind of homes they don't, and believe it or not, it actually says "We also do not sell our pups to people who are sufficiently overweight to prevent them from being active enough for a border collie."

mollywog - I have heard about OCD being overrepresented in border collies. I don't have any stats to back that up, it's just my own observation. But they do seem to be prone to it if understimulated.

GailP - not that I'm usually pro-discrimination of any kind, but at least that is in the best interest of BC pups! I can't imagine anyone who is really out of shape owning one. I know Chase got my butt off the couch! I still have weight I need to lose, but he's a huge help!

And I don't see this a a BC-bashing thread either mollywog - everyone is speaking from experience. :) There are tonnes of BC positives - we're just not highlighting them for these people!

Mollywog - thank you, that's a good point to add to my argument. I wouldn't be surprised if Chase Mom were right, and OCD were overrepresented in BCs due to lack of stimulation. What a sad situation. And don't worry, I'm definitely not trying to bash BCs. They are beautiful, intelligent dogs but of course need the right type of home. I know when we got Milo (even though it wasn't planned - we took him in to prevent him from ending up on Kijiji), the best information about Pugs I read was a web page called "Don't get a Pug" (you can Google it). Someone wrote down all of the worst qualities of the breed to ward off impulse buyers. I still love Pugs in spite of these negatives, but thought it was a great (and very eye-opening) idea and should be done for every breed...I considered starting one here on Pets.ca.

GailP - that's the one! I didn't want to provide a link in case I was way off base in my criticism, but you've managed to find it :thumbs up Yes, they actually have a weight limit for purchasers. I can't remember what the weight limit is (300 lbs or something) or where to find it, but my friend was confident he wouldn't be turned away because he "clears the weight limit by a whole 30 lbs". The FAQs are also where they clearly state that they breed every heat cycle. I mentioned they've had 4 litters in 2009 already, but did NOT notice that they have another 2 on the way :eek: Wow, really irresponsible.

Well, my friends did not end up coming over Saturday night. We have concrete plans with them for next Saturday, and I'm thinking I may bring it up then (although I'm starting to feel like it would be least awkward for me to e-mail them - but not very considerate). My boyfriend is very worried that I'm going to offend them and that they will stop speaking to us. I almost don't care, if they're going to be that stupid about it (I mean I'm doing this because I care about them, not just for the well-being of the dog they may get). But I'll let you all know how it goes when I talk to them...

I also wanted to add - thanks to everyone else I haven't yet mentioned by name, for your advice, encouragement, and support. :grouphug: You guys are all awesome :lovestruck:

I'm still looking for Tucker's off switch, do the really have one? My BC is now 5 years old and still very active, runs with an atv, swims, stair master while herding the cat and if children run and scream they need to be herded too. I love him to death would never part with him, but when he was little I would hate to list the things he destroyed due to too much time on his hands. Should I say he has had his moments, would I get another yes if I was a stay at home mom and most likely would adopt an older dog by passing the puppy stage. A woman from the Ontario Border Collie rescue once told me these dogs don't mature until they hit about five, I must say she was right. But Tucker still has ADHD at times and you have to get him to focus on you and not what has caught his attention at that moment or you might as well talk to the wall as no one is in that little head when focusing on something that interests him more than me. I would ask your friends to check out the BC rescues for an older dog or a cross with something a little more laid back and no they are NOT for the first time dog owner living in an apartment or condo. Tucker has a 16 acre cottage with pond that backs onto 150 acre of pathed woodlands but we also live in TO so he is trained to live in both worlds, and enjoys each differently from running with the atv to getting on a ttc bus.

I'm still looking for Tucker's off switch, do the really have one?
Yes, they do but you have to train it into them. Assuming that we're not talking about one of the neurotic messes that can arise from bad breeding, it's not that hard to accomplish, especially if started when they're young. As I type, I have 4 BC's and a BC/lab all passed out soundly sleeping around me. They'll stay that way for as long as I'm on the computer and when I get up to go upstairs they'll follow me up.

Something that is really amazing to see is a working BC bring 3-4 sheep into a pen from the main flock for somebody to use for a lesson and then, because her handler told her to lie down she doesn't move for the duration of that lesson. The new/younger dog is working the sheep, they may be running all over the place but the old girl doesn't move because she's been given the order "lie down". At the end, she is told to take those sheep back out of the pen and she does so. No fuss, no bother, just efficiently doing exactly as she's told.

Now Tucker is a good dog, but a couple of years ago I would have loved to find that off switch. LOL Right now he is on the couch with all 4 in the air something I think only BC's are capable of, never seen another dog do this. But yes I have seen herding trials and it is amazing what these dogs can do. I can actually say that you can sit and watch the wheels just turning in their little heads as they try and figure out a problem. Tucker loves to fetch his kong out of our pond, and he won't just jump in like a retriever he runs around the pond looking at all the angles until he finds the right one to go in and get the kong. That is what amazes me about these dogs and one reason I love them.

Now Tucker is a good dog, but a couple of years ago I would have loved to find that off switch. LOL Right now he is on the couch with all 4 in the air something I think only BC's are capable of, never seen another dog do this. But yes I have seen herding trials and it is amazing what these dogs can do. I can actually say that you can sit and watch the wheels just turning in their little heads as they try and figure out a problem. Tucker loves to fetch his kong out of our pond, and he won't just jump in like a retriever he runs around the pond looking at all the angles until he finds the right one to go in and get the kong. That is what amazes me about these dogs and one reason I love them.

Well, the off switch isn't quite so obvious as the Staples "Easy" button :laughing: but it can be instilled even in a young BC. Maybe I've been lucky, or maybe in addition to all I do with them my large pack help to tire each other out (8 dogs get to run and play together). My BC's are 14 months, 22 months, and two are 2 1/2 years old. We'll also be bringing home my daughter's new BC puppy any time now, probably this weekend when he will be about 9 1/2 weeks old.

I know what you mean about all 4 in the air. Not too long ago I posted a picture of Flurry looking like that, I think I titled it Sleepy Pup or something similar.

Having another dog around does make a difference as when Tucker has a play date with another dog even when he was little it helped tire him out for sure, but at home with just us and the cats we were always trying out new things to mentally challenge him he seems more of a head case always thinking, which can be a bad thing when bored.
But eight dogs wow, I would love to get a Bernese Mountain Dog my all time favorite dog, I use to have a cross that was pts due to bone cancer 6 years ago. But that will be in retirement when I can move to my cottage full time, I would even get a rescue BC too as then I would have the time and I sure do have the property for them. Hopefully another 5 years to go:pray: early retirement

But eight dogs wow, I would love to get a Bernese Mountain Dog my all time favorite dog, I use to have a cross that was pts due to bone cancer 6 years ago.
A friend of mine used to have a BMD that she did some carting with. Her dog was getting older when she too lost her to cancer a couple of years ago. She was a really nice dog.