Designer breed pics and info

Hello

I am looking at getting a chihuahua x shih tzu pup in my area and was wondering if anyone could help me out with what they know about how this designer mix is in regards to training ability, quietness, grooming (shedding), etc? Also I would like to see pics of the designer breed when babies and then what they look like as adults to kind of get an idea. I would really appreciate your help.

Thanks

Melissa

I don't think you are at the right spot to come looking for that type of info. What you should be doing is talking to some of those "breeders" of the designer mutts. Look up the websites of some of them. See if you can get the information you want. You could also look at the individual breeds of the dogs that have been "mixed" to make the mutt you want to spend megabucks on. That should give you some idea of what tempermant the pup will have.

or you could go to a shelter or rescue and adopt the same mix for hmmm $300. already spayed/neutered and had its shots. Then spend the money you saved not paying a fortune to a byb and spoil your new rescued dog.

you could get the shedding of the chi, or the non shedding of the shih tzu, could be the slimness of the chi or the rolly polly of the shuh tzu....no matter how you look at it you are playing a craps game with a mixed breed, there are no "standard" for them except they are all (designer breeds) mutts, plain and simple, you would be best off as some of the others suggested , going to a rescue and finding an adult or pup that grabs your heart. Along with saving yourself tons of money these so called breeders charge for mutts, you'll be helping to save a life of an unwanted "designer" breed that people like yourself and many others paid good money for only to discover that that certain pup doesn't have the traits you were quaranteed..........good luck in your search, but don't forget...research research research!

animal=Dog&breed=shih+tzu&age=&size=&sex=&location=K6H+1A2&name=

just in my area, shih tzu's and mixes

Basically you can never tell what temperments will come out in the dog. Do yourself a favor and go to a rescue or a shelter and adopt one of the designer dogs from them. Because they are mixes that can be had at any rescue or shelter why pay a byb or puppy mill way to much money for a mutt, and you will be saving a life

Basically you can never tell what temperments will come out in the dog. Do yourself a favor and go to a rescue or a shelter and adopt one of the designer dogs from them. Because they are mixes that can be had at any rescue or shelter why pay a byb or puppy mill way to much money for a mutt, and you will be saving a life

Well put mastifflover. Rescues have these types and you will not be putting $$$ on the backs of the animals.

There is one mix I do not understand!! The chi and the tzu are perfect the way they are.. No one can tell you what it will look like or act like.. There is no standard, because it is not a breed, it is a mixed breed AKA a mutt, it is nothing special, in fact there are probably actually 10 other breeds in them because the parents are probably not purebred, so that leaves even more room for being unsure of the outcome. THe dogs are not health tested, and you wont know the temperment, There are people taking advantage of others with this deigner dog garbage, there is NOTHING to justify spending money on one of these cross bred dogs.

I can promise you that you can find a similar or exact mix u want already needing a home. Please dont encourage this kind of breeding practise, go adopt a pup that needs a home desperatly, there is someone out there waiting for someone to love him, and needs you, go rescue a baby who has it's days numbered and you will be rewarded for the rest of it's life.

If you're looking for any kind of predictability with regard to "training ability, quietness, grooming (shedding), etc" than you should be looking at a purebred dog.

With a crossbreed, there's no way to predict which breed characteristics will be/have been inherited from which parent.

Don't support BYBers such as those who breed such mixes . . . Head to the nearest shelter! There are many, many Chis and the like in new homes.

I was looking for some real information on Morkie's .. and all I see here is bashing of BYBr's etc...

Here is my question.. since genetically ALL Dogs are exactly the same and share the same genes with timberwolves etc.. I think you should stop and think about what you are saying and how you are saying it..

First all 'Purebred' dogs were once 'designer dogs' and were bred for specific purposes, from parents of differing backgrounds and 'breed' ..

This constant bashing designer dogs is useless..that horse is out of the barn folks.. the demand is there and there are reasons for it..

For one the 'designer dogs' are not 'mutts' but would be far more accurately be referred to by any animal husbandry expert as 'hybrids' specific breeds crossed to give specific results.. mutts are random..Hybrids are on purpose..

Also..to say that a 'crossbred mutt' is not healthier than it's purebred genetic forebears is hogwash! Total and complete and I am sorry I cannot be more delicate with this but seriously folks..how many of your ____fill in the blank___ purebred favorites HAVEN'T been crossbred to some other breed to help to reduce a genetic trait..St Bernards are one of my favorites..crossbred with Newf's to reduce drooling and hip dysplasia problems and then 'bred back' to purebred standards in a matter of generations..

Each and every distinct 'Breed' recognized by whatever Kennel Club you swear allegiance to had it's own time when it was 'bred into existence' by the demand of the people that wanted them..and the animal husbandry expertise of those that knew how to cross dis-similar breeds to get the characteristics that were desired..it happens every day in hog barns and cow barns and chicken barns..you don't complain when you get leaner pork..that too is a result of 'hybridization'..the real term you should be using when referring to 'designer dogs'

This fight is going to be lost..and lost big.. they aren't mutts..they ARE hybrids.. look it up in your dictionary..ask your vet.. heck..even ask a reputable breeder..or a farmer.. anyone that knows animal husbandry..will know that what you are spewing shouldn't have been in your mouth to begin with...it belongs back out in the barnyard with the rest of the excrement..

Thanks for listening..

It's not the mixed breeds anyone here has a problem with, it's the unscrupulous backyard breeders that want to cash in on the latest "in" dog that's extremely concerning.

Show me an ethical breeder that breeds for quality of health and temperament and not simply $$ and you'll find some supporting your arguments, just not the "excrement" that comes with it.

I use to own a bernese mountain dog crossed with a Shepperd was he a designer dog or a mutt..... Dogs have crossed bred for years they are not fussy when another dog is in heat a designer dog is just a nice way of saying a cross bred or a mutt.. even a vet would agree. If you want a non-shedding dog just go out there and find something crossed with a poodle or a terrier there are lots in the shelters. With not such a big price tag on them and you would be saving them from maybe certain death.

If the cross breeding was intentional..it was a hybrid..if it was by 'in heat random desire' ..mutt.. on that I can agree..

Intentional cross breeding creates a better offspring in most cases than either parent breed. This goes for pigs, cows, chickens, horses, and flowers and vegetables. To say that hybridization is 'breeding mutts' is silly and makes Pure Breed fanatics out to be so biased as to be laughable.

A bit of decorum and some restraint on the part of those prefer pure breeds when 'attacking' those that prefer hybrids is needed in order to bring this site up to the standard that I believe was likely intended at it's conception.

It's not the mixed breeds anyone here has a problem with, it's the unscrupulous backyard breeders that want to cash in on the latest "in" dog that's extremely concerning.

Show me an ethical breeder that breeds for quality of health and temperament and not simply $$ and you'll find some supporting your arguments, just not the "excrement" that comes with it.

My recently deceased Cockapoo's breeders would be one set..I also know of several Cockapoo breeders that not only allow but encourage visits to their home and have BOTH parents on site to be inspected by any potential client/owner. They offer not only full vet care before but also guarantee against genetic defects.

There are MANY breeders of hybrids that are totally above board.

A bit of decorum and some restraint on the part of those prefer pure breeds when 'attacking' those that prefer hybrids is needed in order to bring this site up to the standard that I believe was likely intended at it's conception.

:rolleyes: I think you need more time getting acquainted with this forum and it's members.

Asides from home visits, what else exactly do these "breeders" do to ensure the health of their "hybrids?" Genetic testing in order to guarantee against genetic defects? Eyes? Ears? Hips? Guarantees are one thing, doing everything possible to avoid defects is another.

My recently deceased Cockapoo's breeders would be one set..I also know of several Cockapoo breeders that not only allow but encourage visits to their home and have BOTH parents on site to be inspected by any potential client/owner. They offer not only full vet care before but also guarantee against genetic defects.

There are MANY breeders of hybrids that are totally above board.

Interesting point of view. Here I am wasting hours of my time looking for an ethical breeder of a specific breed of dog and I could save myself untold hours by getting a "hybrid" from one of your "above board" breeders!

Who would have thunk it?

A mutt is a mutt is a mutt. Calling it a hybrid or giving it a fancy designer name doesn't make it a "better" dog.

While you are right about all breeds starting out as mixes - the dogs used to develop the breeds we know now were carefully selected and very strict, detailed records were kept of not only the breeding but the offspring. Most puppies that were not what the breeder at the time was looking for were culled so that they did not make it into the gene pool and the sire and dam were not used again.

We all love mutts here. But we aren't fooling ourselves into thinking that the new designer breeds are somehow better then the mutt at the shelter and we are unwilling to give hundreds of dollars (or thousands in some cases) to people who use their dogs to make money.

For one the 'designer dogs' are not 'mutts'

yes , they are still mutts , because they are mixed breed.





This fight is going to be lost..and lost big.. they aren't mutts..

:confused: yep , they are

look it up in your dictionary..ask your vet.. heck..even ask a reputable breeder..

I already did and was told ..... wait for it .... they are mutts / mixed breeds.



To say that hybridization is 'breeding mutts' is silly and makes Pure Breed fanatics out to be so biased as to be laughable.



There no pure bred fanatics here , only people who call it as it is.



A mutt is a mutt is a mutt.

Yep. :)

If the cross breeding was intentional..it was a hybrid..if it was by 'in heat random desire' ..mutt.. on that I can agree..

Genetically, the two would be indistinguishable. Intent does not create a difference genetically.

Intentional cross breeding creates a better offspring in most cases than either parent breed. This goes for pigs, cows, chickens, horses, and flowers and vegetables. To say that hybridization is 'breeding mutts' is silly and makes Pure Breed fanatics out to be so biased as to be laughable.


It might eventually even come up with a new 'breed', but in the early generations, the offspring will not 'breed true'. It takes a long time for a 'type' to be set--and once it is, you're back to a genetic bottleneck--some alleles are set in the genotype, some are lost :shrug:

For this very reason, the gene pool of dogs is no longer identical to the gene pool for wolves, even though there is enough similarity to allow for hybrids between the two. Similarly, the gene pool for one breed is not identical to the gene pool for another--this is what gives the breeds their 'type'.

There is nothing wrong with a 'mutt', but it's not a 'breed' because there is no 'type'. And not all mutts are genetically healthier--depending on the way a disease or a developmental condition is controlled by the genetics, you may still see the problem arise in a hybrid.

So for a 'breeder' to produce one of the fad breed combinations and charge an exorbitant price for their new 'breed' is a bit disingenuous. You can make the case that there is demand from an uneducated public, but it's a fad...and like all fads, will likely fade out after a while.

For one the 'designer dogs' are not 'mutts' but would be far more accurately be referred to by any animal husbandry expert as 'hybrids' specific breeds crossed to give specific results.. mutts are random..Hybrids are on purpose..
Oh there's purpose all right. One sole purpose. $$$ What other possible purpose could there be to mixing this-to-that, then it's offspring to something else, and then maybe the next breeding to the current flavour of the month that everyone is looking for on kijiji?

Also..to say that a 'crossbred mutt' is not healthier than it's purebred genetic forebears is hogwash!
Since when are puppy mill dogs healthy? Most of them receive little/no vet care, are bred without any kind of screening for hereditary diseases and often the pups have diseases, deformities etc.

You think your breeder is so great. Maybe you're right and we're all wrong. We don't know your breeder. BUT, even if that were true, how can you support the multitudes of byb's and mills that are pumping out puppies by the hundreds or thousands with no regard to health or where those pups end up? They're all producing mutts or as you like to call them "hybrids", though in lots of cases it is just whatever mix happened to get bred by accident since they've got so many different dogs running around. Lots of times they don't even have a clue what's in the puppies they're producing. It really doesn't matter whether you call them mutts, mixed breeds, hybrids or whatever. Once upon a time they were called a Heinz 57 and you could pick them up free/cheap from anyone who had an oops litter or from a shelter. Nowadays byb's want to cash in so they give them fancy names and talk them up to sound like something special.

People on this forum are not breed snobs. No one here has anything against the mixed breed dogs themselves and many of us have one or more, but we have adopted ours from shelters/rescues, not poured tons of money into the pockets of unscrupulous breeders.

the demand is there and there are reasons for it..

Exactly. You said it yourself, my friend. These breeders are producing these dogs out of demand that these 'hybrids' (aka Mutts, mixed breed, whatever you want to call it) will sell.

I own what has been deemed by society, a 'labradoodle'. She sheds, she has straight hair, and for all intense and purposes is a complete lab. People tell me all the time that she is NOT a labradoodle because she doesn't carry the 'look' of what BYB's have tried to accomplish - the long, wavy/curly non-shedding dog.

I think the point everyone here is trying to make is that when reputable breeders DO breed dogs - they ensure that their puppies hold up to certain standards and ideals. There is a lot of testing done to ensure that the dogs they are breeding will continue a healthy genetic line. There is not much question as to what their puppies will grow to look like.

Designer dogs? Anything can happen. Any trait can pop up, any temperment, and pups from the same litter can look as different as night and day. It's such a random collection of genetics, and I don't even understand the line of thinking that buying one of these dogs from a so-called "breeder" will get you what you want moreso than adopting a dog from a shelter.

A mixed dog, is a mixed dog - whether bred under human direction or not.

All i can add is, when we know better, we do better. When all this breeding began to cause thousands of dogs to be killed, it is time to step up and change things. There is nothing similar between breeding mutts and what people did to breed the breeds we now have. There is a breed for everything, no more needed. I have the same problem with poor purebred breeders, the only people that should be breeding are the very rare true pros.

I got a shih x lhasa 14 week pup from a rescue for $165. He is just as good as any classified add designer pup.

Why support the indiscriminate breeding when it is fueling the dogs on death row? There are many that need homes, and many that will die waiting, please tell me why more should be bred?

The whole mutts are healthier is just a load of crap. They can have the issues of both breeds, and anything not purebred is indeed a mutt, period.

I would like to clear one little misconception our new member seems to have. Not one of us here is pushing purebreds. You can buy a purebred from a byb or puppymill too. They are on the low end of a quality breed but don't fall under the mutt catagory. What we are pushing here is the mistreatment or in most cases abuse of dogs and cats for the purpose of making money.

Little sally simpson and her husband think aaaaaw aren't these two dogs cute, lets mate them and call them chixtzu. When mommy dog reaches her delivery date, little sally knowing absolute squat doesn't know a puppy is breach and even tho she loved her doggie it still ends up the same in most cases, the female and the breach puppy die.

Then we have the puppy mills where a cute little female cocker is bought at a puppy broker, shoved in a cage and when she comes into heat bred to create more little cute cockers. nevermind the fact that she has stood on nothing but a wire bottomed cage her whole life, never seen a vet, been bathed or brushed let alone shown any form of affection in her ENTIRE life. This female has never been genetically tested for eyes, ears, hips, etc and guarantee neither has the male, thus passing on any or all of these issues to the unknowing public.

1 female cocker-2 heat cycles a year x 8 yrs at 9 puppies a litter= 144 puppies. THAT is what we are trying to stop.

Interesting..as expected you all just proved my point..this is NOT an open minded forum.

I said HYBRID.. hybrids are not expected to breed true they are intentionally and specifically crossbred between specific parents WITH the best charateristics and health of the offspring in mind..yes some..mind you SOME give the whole hybrid thing the disgusting 'Designer Dog' moniker a really bad name..

True Hybrid dog breeders are not just out to make a huge buck..

Is it not true however that 'Purebred Breeders' have just as foul a reputation..just look at the Old English Sheepdog and what inbreeding did to that fine old breed...

SHAME on Purebred fanatics for casting stones at those that are no more guilty than their own compatriots..

Clean up your own backyard breeders folks before you start casting stones!

A hybrid is the combination of two or more different things, aimed at achieving a particular objective or goal. In different contexts this may refer to:


* In biology:
o Hybrid (biology), the offspring resulting from cross-breeding of different plants or animals.

That is the true meaning of Hybrid.

Every person who has responded to you, and fairly politely i must say has in one way or another rescued or cleaned up the mess from the people creating your lovely MUTTS....Now if i had to decide who was better informed, you a draftsman by trade or one of the ladies who responded who has more degrees up her butt in this area, hmmm i lean towards her.

I am intrigued with the fact that, you just joined, dredged up an old thread, all 4 of your posts are in this thread, and as far as i can see it's only to stir up trouble. Thus leading me to believe either TROLL or a member who was banned for doing this exact same thing. Since most NEW members introduce themselves and their pets first.

ditto :highfive:

I would like to clear one little misconception our new member seems to have. Not one of us here is pushing purebreds. You can buy a purebred from a byb or puppymill too.

>Agreed... I would beg to differ on the pushing purebreds though.. read the earlier posts...please.. this is however more about Hybrid bashing..

They are on the low end of a quality breed but don't fall under the mutt catagory.

>They don't? They certainly aren't 'quality dogs'!

What we are pushing here is the mistreatment or in most cases abuse of dogs and cats for the purpose of making money.

>On that we totally agree..

Little sally simpson and her husband think aaaaaw aren't these two dogs cute, lets mate them and call them chixtzu. When mommy dog reaches her delivery date, little sally knowing absolute squat doesn't know a puppy is breach and even tho she loved her doggie it still ends up the same in most cases, the female and the breach puppy die.

> not a good situation..and these are certainly not quality breeders.. there ARE quality Hybrid breeders however.. who are being maligned and slandered by the insinuation here that ALL crossbreeders/Hybrid breeders are totally incompetent with no scruples whatsoever.. which just isn't true..and makes this forum look silly and more than a bit biased.

Then we have the puppy mills where a cute little female cocker <SNIP>1 female cocker-2 heat cycles a year x 8 yrs at 9 puppies a litter= 144 puppies. THAT is what we are trying to stop.

> Unconscionable beyond compare that is awful and unscrupulous money grab... thanks for at least thinking beyond the 'mutt' is all a hybrid might be..

A hybrid is the combination of two or more different things, aimed at achieving a particular objective or goal. In different contexts this may refer to:


* In biology:
o Hybrid (biology), the offspring resulting from cross-breeding of different plants or animals.

That is the true meaning of Hybrid.

Every person who has responded to you, and fairly politely i must say has in one way or another rescued or cleaned up the mess from the people creating your lovely MUTTS....Now if i had to decide who was better informed, you a draftsman by trade or one of the ladies who responded who has more degrees up her butt in this area, hmmm i lean towards her.

I am intrigued with the fact that, you just joined, dredged up an old thread, all 4 of your posts are in this thread, and as far as i can see it's only to stir up trouble. Thus leading me to believe either TROLL or a member who was banned for doing this exact same thing. Since most NEW members introduce themselves and their pets first.

Excuse me..my name is Kent and my pet was Penny ..an excellent example of Hybrid's as a Cockapoo..
Yes I am a draftsman by trade.. now..at age 49.. but in an early phase of my life.. I was a farmer.. bad back doesn't lend well to that...
NOW who do you think is trolling..I am simply trying to point out facts..
I am NOT defending puppymills or the mistreatment of any animal.. nor do I even attempt to defend anyone charging over $1000 and up to $2500 dollars for a hybrid cross.. a good breeder can however cross breed sucessfully with excellent results and produce hybrid dogs of high quality that ARE worth paying for.. with the best interests of both the progeny and the parents..
PLEASE don't misunderstand me.. I just do not understand the bias against ALL hybrid dogs.. Ban me if you will..I am new to this forum and am not trying to stir up trouble..I am only trying to help you see how you are going to be viewed..as bashers of those that do not agree with your specific viewpoint.. that your viewpoint is based in facts that are too horrific to even be understood in some cases..well that is regrettable... it is however not necessarily a 'true' case scenario as there ARE good hybrid breeders just as there ARE good Purebred breeders..and unfortunately vice-versa..
To categorize ALL crossbreeding hybrid breeders as 'bad' is a disservice to yourselves and to all dog breeders in the end as anyone with some common sense knows that it is not possible for ALL of any category of person to be 'bad' just as it is not possible for ALL of any category to be bad.
Nuff said for now...
I am not against you.. I am for your true cause..the ethical treatment of and breeding of fine pets.. be they pure bred..hybrid ..or mutt!
Me..I am a purebred.. 100% Norwegian stock and proud of it.. my late pet was Hybrid.. Cockapoo..and I could not recommend her stock more highly!

Draughty, i'm not going to stir up anything, and i'm not differentiating between a mutt and a hybrid. Yes wolves are bred with huskies to produce a better sled dog, blah blah. That is a hybrid..

I'm going to take a stab in the dark and assume that your boy is a mixed breed and you don't like the term Mutt..That is fine. But a spade is a spade. I along with many of the members here have more than one Mixed breed in our homes. Yes some of them are excellent little critters, some have their own little issues, some well we wont go there.

To become a pure breed there is years and years of breeding, testing, etc to create a stable trait in the dogs and you don't get that in the first litter or ten. So the cute little ones you see listed now are plain and simple, mutts,mixed breeds or whatever you want to call them. One from the litter could be perfect, one a little canine serial killer you just don't know. And to make one thing perfectly clear, 99.9% of all puppies sold at pet stores are from puppymills. period.

Draughty, i'm not going to stir up anything, and i'm not differentiating between a mutt and a hybrid. Yes wolves are bred with huskies to produce a better sled dog, blah blah. That is a hybrid..

I'm going to take a stab in the dark and assume that your boy is a mixed breed and you don't like the term Mutt..That is fine. But a spade is a spade. I along with many of the members here have more than one Mixed breed in our homes. Yes some of them are excellent little critters, some have their own little issues, some well we wont go there.

To become a pure breed there is years and years of breeding, testing, etc to create a stable trait in the dogs and you don't get that in the first litter or ten. So the cute little ones you see listed now are plain and simple, mutts,mixed breeds or whatever you want to call them. One from the litter could be perfect, one a little canine serial killer you just don't know. And to make one thing perfectly clear, 99.9% of all puppies sold at pet stores are from puppymills. period.


Wouldn't get a puppy from a pet store on a bet.. totally agree there.. and yes..there are aberrations in Hybrids.. but when done responisbly with good parentage this is far less likely..and to make a hybrid..it HAS to be a cross..it cannot be bred with another cross.. Purebred + Purebred = Hybrid... Hybrid + Hybrid = mutt.. no problem there at all!

Well it's wonderful to see we agree on a large portion of the issue, so lets just agree to disagree on the rest ok.

So now i think you should create a thread and post eleventy billion pictures of your penny so we can all oooooh and aaaaaw.:thumbs up

Wouldn't get a puppy from a pet store on a bet.. totally agree there.. and yes..there are aberrations in Hybrids.. but when done responisbly with good parentage this is far less likely..and to make a hybrid..it HAS to be a cross..it cannot be bred with another cross.. Purebred + Purebred = Hybrid... Hybrid + Hybrid = mutt.. no problem there at all!

This confuses me a little :o Do you mean that the "reputable hybrid breeders" only breed 2 different purebreds together, and that none of the puppies from such a litter are bred and must be spayed/neutered?

I'm glad this thread is simmering down.

Draughty, maybe our forum is for you and maybe it isn't. Either way rudeness won't be tolerated. When you enter a new crowd, forum or group of friends, it's normal to tread with lighter steps.
Please feel free to hang around but tone it down (as you have in your last post :)). If you wish to respond to this, do so by PM or email only, never in an open forum. Thanks in advance.

Back to the thread now....:goodvibes:

Excuse me..my name is Kent and my pet was Penny ..an excellent example of Hybrid's as a Cockapoo..
Yes I am a draftsman by trade.. now..at age 49.. but in an early phase of my life.. I was a farmer.. bad back doesn't lend well to that...
NOW who do you think is trolling..I am simply trying to point out facts..
I am NOT defending puppymills or the mistreatment of any animal.. nor do I even attempt to defend anyone charging over $1000 and up to $2500 dollars for a hybrid cross.. a good breeder can however cross breed sucessfully with excellent results and produce hybrid dogs of high quality that ARE worth paying for.. with the best interests of both the progeny and the parents..
PLEASE don't misunderstand me.. I just do not understand the bias against ALL hybrid dogs.. Ban me if you will..I am new to this forum and am not trying to stir up trouble..I am only trying to help you see how you are going to be viewed..as bashers of those that do not agree with your specific viewpoint.. that your viewpoint is based in facts that are too horrific to even be understood in some cases..well that is regrettable... it is however not necessarily a 'true' case scenario as there ARE good hybrid breeders just as there ARE good Purebred breeders..and unfortunately vice-versa..
To categorize ALL crossbreeding hybrid breeders as 'bad' is a disservice to yourselves and to all dog breeders in the end as anyone with some common sense knows that it is not possible for ALL of any category of person to be 'bad' just as it is not possible for ALL of any category to be bad.
Nuff said for now...
I am not against you.. I am for your true cause..the ethical treatment of and breeding of fine pets.. be they pure bred..hybrid ..or mutt!
Me..I am a purebred.. 100% Norwegian stock and proud of it.. my late pet was Hybrid.. Cockapoo..and I could not recommend her stock more highly!

Trent - the problem that we, as a group, have is that careful breeders of "hybrids" are even more rare then ethical breeders of purebreds - and we are a very persnickety bunch when it comes to breeding ethics. The honest truth is, most people who breed designer breeds see that they can get a male and female dog, breed them and make between $1,000 and $2,000 for each puppy. They don't bother looking into any of the genetic issues that the breeds are prone to that they pass on to the puppies or the cost of vetting or pregnancy emergencies or anything else.

It isn't our intent to bash or belittle but to educate. You can call a hybrid anything you like but it is still a mutt. This isn't meant as a slam or anything else, it is a plain and simple fact. The last time I looked, an estimated 2.5 million dogs were killed in North America (the U.S. and Canada) simply because they had no home. A majority of them were "hybrids" or mutts.

This is what we object to. And, unfortuneately, until we can educate people enough to understand that a hybrid and a mutt are the same thing - this problem will not go away, only increase.

I cannot help but think of all the 'designer breeds', mixes, mutts or hybrids (whatever you want to call it) are at the mercy of pounds, shelters and the 'lucky ones' in rescue.

There are presently claudestine breeding facilities, millers and so called breeders pumping out hundreds and thousands of these poor pups and killing the parents slowly and horribly during the process in order to fill a so called demand. That 'demand' is now being exterminated by gassing, shooting, lethal injection, electrocution etc as I type this.

These so called breeders are NOT reputable. They are given breeding permits by the city and are not governed. There is no way to regulate these breeders nor are there standards to ensure that the 'hybrid' that they are producting are sound medically nor temperment wise. TRUE breeders have years of exhausting genetic testing and follow up to ensure that their line is of high quality which meets the breed standards. This is time consuming and financially exhausting to ensure that a true purebred is of the utmost quality. Fancy pretend 'breeds' have only a few years of developing a chickapoo (and how difficult is that) and my question how can these breeders ensure good genetics for these designer dogs. They cannot.

I really do not understand why someone would buy a mixed breed from a so called breeder in the first place. There are plenty of these dogs within the system BEGGING to live.

I say stop this nonsense breeding and let's concentrate on saving the over flowing pet populations just waiting for a second chance.

When is enough enough already?

Well said, BenMax. :thumbs up

Well said, BenMax. :thumbs up

I really wanted to stay away from this thread but I cannot forget about Peaches and all the other 'designer breeds' I have had in my home. Remember the 10 week old Morkie? The cockapoos, the labradoodles, puggles and the countless others that have passed my hands and so many others here at pets??

I think that this whole darn breeding should STOP. It's pointless to spend 600-800$ for a mutt! Go to a shelter, go to petfinder, go to the city pound, go to rescues - they are there.....waiting....and while they are waiting that freezer door is open!:sad:

To be blunt - this really totally disgusts me to no end.

I know, I know there are far too many cats and dogs in the world, both purebred and mixed breeds. All they want is a loving home :sad:. I wish people would stop breeding for a while.

SO true L4H and BM.

It really comes down to the fact that regardless of what 'kind of dog' you want - society has done so much damage by overpopulating the species because of their own wanted gain.

It's wrong, and it needs to stop.

If that means by someones standards I'm not "openminded"...then THANK DAWG for that.

..by no means did I mean to step in with a heavy foot..I will say however that I have checked several threads both open and closed about crossbreeds or hybrids..and every time it appears the same people are quite heavy handed in their outright condemnation of 'designer dogs' and their criticisms are often misleading if not outright wrong.

To say that a reputably bred cross breed is ONLY going to have the worst traits of it's parents is sheer ...ok..I can't say anything nice about that so I won't say anymore..

This bashing seems to not only be tolerated..but supported at each and every turn.. the same people are saying the same things.. how is that treating newcomers to a welcome?

NOW if you really want to educate and inform..treat those that come in to ask honest questions from their own curiosity PLEASE don't let them get bashed by the same people saying the same really unkind things. All you are doing is driving away the people that won't fight you on whether or not 'designer dogs' are evil incarnate..

Again..my only intention here is to help YOU stop some of your own badmouthing of people who are doing a desired service for people that want it.

Should the crossbreeds be spayed and neutered..honestly I do believe they should be.. most of those that are buying a hybrid or crossbreed dog do not want to have to deal with puppies nor do they have any idea how to deal with them.. if I had my way only licensed government inspected facilities would be allowed to have dogs or cats that are NOT neutered..is that possible? No.. but it would be my preference..and that goes for all breeds..

Honestly it is hard for me to not think of 'Purebred Teacup Poodles' as designer dogs..much to many peoples horror I am sure.. I am not however going to tell you that you are wrong to want one IF that is the pet that fits you..so why would you keep allowing purebred anti-hybrid enthusiasts to keep bashing the desires of someone who simply really enjoys a dog of specifically mixed breed.. having known several Cockapoos as well as Poodles and Cocker Spaniels I can honestly say that all the Cockapoos were in better health and of better temperament than any of the purebreds.. again..I am talking nearly 50 of loving dogs and knowing dogs.. please..just refrain from bashing someone and give them the information with as much humility and courtesy as you would hope to be given..I am sorry to say this but so far this has just not been the case so far as I have seen here.

I cannot help but think of all the 'designer breeds', mixes, mutts or hybrids (whatever you want to call it) are at the mercy of pounds, shelters and the 'lucky ones' in rescue.

There are presently claudestine breeding facilities, millers and so called breeders pumping out hundreds and thousands of these poor pups and killing the parents slowly and horribly during the process in order to fill a so called demand. That 'demand' is now being exterminated by gassing, shooting, lethal injection, electrocution etc as I type this.

These so called breeders are NOT reputable. They are given breeding permits by the city and are not governed. There is no way to regulate these breeders nor are there standards to ensure that the 'hybrid' that they are producting are sound medically nor temperment wise. TRUE breeders have years of exhausting genetic testing and follow up to ensure that their line is of high quality which meets the breed standards. This is time consuming and financially exhausting to ensure that a true purebred is of the utmost quality. Fancy pretend 'breeds' have only a few years of developing a chickapoo (and how difficult is that) and my question how can these breeders ensure good genetics for these designer dogs. They cannot.

I really do not understand why someone would buy a mixed breed from a so called breeder in the first place. There are plenty of these dogs within the system BEGGING to live.

I say stop this nonsense breeding and let's concentrate on saving the over flowing pet populations just waiting for a second chance.

When is enough enough already?

Reputable AND disreputable breeders are well documented in ALL breeds and hybrids.. THAT is a fact..and yes I agree.. the overbreeding must stop..hard to stop greed however..and please..can you honestly say you haven't seen purebreds coming in to rescue shelters and pulled out of puppy mills and purebreds used to the same heartless ends? I doubt it.. as I said before..the wonderful Olde English Sheepdog was nearly ruined by overbreeding and inbreeding..at least hybrids are not inbred.. hybrids that are bred to each other are NOT hybrids.. to get a pure cross you must have two differing purebred breeds not two hybrids..anyone passing off the progeny of two hybrid dogs as another hybrid is ignorant, unscrupulous or both!

If hybrids bred to hybrids are not hybrids, what are they? :confused: If there is no breed type established, they are not breeds...and it takes many generations to set the breed type. Until you've undergone the genetic bottleneck and established a 'breed type'. and the generations 'breed true' to that 'type', there is no 'breed'. So hybrids bred to hybrids, at least for the first many generations, are not pure-breds...which makes them hybrids. :shrug:

I'm not sure that I'm following your argument...

if I had my way only licensed government inspected facilities would be allowed to have dogs or cats that are NOT neutered..is that possible?

In the U.S. - licensed, government inspected facilities are known as commercial breeders and these are the only breeders allowed to sell to pet shops. Inspectors are few and far between and most "breeders" have somewhere between 100 and 300 dogs that they breed. Vet visits are a rarity and inspection violations are generally a warning, followed by a fine if there is any follow-up at all. These facilities are usually cages and cages and cages full of dogs stacked on top of each other.

I am sorry if you think that we are a bit more passionate that you would like. Most of the members here are involved in rescue, and spent countless hours, tears and hard earned dollars cleaning up the messes that licensed, government inspected facilities create.

oh please you can't be serious. First off anyone who joins this forum is supposed to read the rules etc and it states clearly that this is a mainly pro spay/;neuter forum. A large majority of the members here are in rescue in one form or another cleaning up the mess of people who think its ok to not fix their animals, breed designer mutts when 100% of the shelters in North America are bursting at the seems with animals. 1000 of animals are euthanized dailey. One of our members days exists of going to work, off to the rescues, then home to her umpteen foster animals. I am in awe that you believe it is ok to breed mutts when so many die in the shelters.

So since we are so uneducated tho we have cleaned up this mess for a long time, please do tell how all of us are wrong. Go to a local shelter and request to be present while they put down several of your wonderful Hybrids then come back and tell us how evil we are.

Reputable AND disreputable breeders are well documented in ALL breeds and hybrids.. THAT is a fact..and yes I agree.. the overbreeding must stop..hard to stop greed however..and please..can you honestly say you haven't seen purebreds coming in to rescue shelters and pulled out of puppy mills and purebreds used to the same heartless ends? I doubt it.. as I said before..the wonderful Olde English Sheepdog was nearly ruined by overbreeding and inbreeding..at least hybrids are not inbred.. hybrids that are bred to each other are NOT hybrids.. to get a pure cross you must have two differing purebred breeds not two hybrids..anyone passing off the progeny of two hybrid dogs as another hybrid is ignorant, unscrupulous or both!

and this is our point exactly, these are NOT reputable breeder. They are not looking out for the welfare of the breed or these issues wouldn't be happening. one breed bred to another breed is a mutt period no matter what fancy name you want to give it..your cockapoo was a mutt, mongrel,hybrid heinz57 or what ever name you want to give it. As is my bailey. Funny we had the same mix and i will guarantee that they had totally different personalities and tempermants.

:confused:

Is it just me, or is none of this making any sense. Draughty you sound like you're going in circles, and I for one am getting confused.

Reputable AND disreputable breeders are well documented in ALL breeds and hybrids.. THAT is a fact..and yes I agree.. the overbreeding must stop..hard to stop greed however..and please..can you honestly say you haven't seen purebreds coming in to rescue shelters and pulled out of puppy mills and purebreds used to the same heartless ends?

No one here is arguing a case for purebred breeders either. Period. You're pleading a case that is redundant, IMO.

The majority of the users are HUGE into rescuing, and adopting and fostering. This is the site you have come too, and these are the people you are trying to plead your case against. I for one don't care HOW you view these designer pooch breeders, because to me - it's all ridiculous. There are too many purebred and mixed puppies/dogs in shelters and rescues across the WORLD - right now - that need homes, while breeders, puppymills, petstores and the like are filling those spots and this needs to stop.

Again..my only intention here is to help YOU stop some of your own badmouthing of people who are doing a desired service for people that want it.

Just because it's wanted...just because there is a huge "desire" for it...does it mean it's right? Does it mean that I should stop telling people to RESCUE instead of buying these little 'cute' mix or purebred puppies that people see on advertised in papers or on the internet? Does it mean that my heart doesn't break when I think of our little Suki - a miniature poodle we rescued from a puppymill case - that was literally put down five days later because her HEAD WAS NOT ATTACHED TO HER BODY due to missing vertebrae??

No.

It means I will always stand up, and say to anyone and everyone that they need to go to their local rescue and adopt a dog or puppy in need. It means that I will always feel the hairs on the back of my neck stand up, when someone calls this service 'reputable'. It means I will always stand up badmouth these kind of breeders.

Again..my only intention here is to help YOU stop some of your own badmouthing of people who are doing a desired service for people that want it.

Now by this logic, because their is a desire for something then it should be acceptable right. So drugs should be legal, dog fights should be legal, pedophilia, child porn, etc, etc. Just because its desired doesn't mean it's right.

Just because its desired doesn't mean it's right.

Very well said aslan :thumbs up

This thread is starting to make my head spin, the same things just keep being reiterated on both sides of the issue. Perhaps it's time to clarify something for Draughty. This forum is not pro-purebred breeding/anti-crossbred breeding. It is a pro spay/neuter and pro-rescue forum, which discourages any and all breeding, purebred or otherwise. To say that producers of crossbred puppies are being maligned means that you have not read through much of this forum thoroughly. Every person who comes on here and represents themselves as a breeder or is talking about wanting to breed, asking breeding questions, asking if their pet might be pregnant etc. are all treated equally, regardless of breed or crossbreed. Anyone who starts posts about their litter (or upcoming litter) of puppies or kittens and/or posting pictures of them is asked some very pointed questions. It doesn't matter what kind of dog they have, the responses are the same.

Now by this logic, because their is a desire for something then it should be acceptable right. So drugs should be legal, dog fights should be legal, pedophilia, child porn, etc, etc. Just because its desired doesn't mean it's right.

:thumbs up:thumbs up Very well said.

Draugty, can you answer this question for me? What is the difference between your cockapoo and the thousand cockapoos in shelters? Is it just the intent behind the breeding? That i dont understand as the outcome in any pup of this type of breeding cannot be determined.

When there are enough of there dogs, to the point many are killed, why breed more? We all love mutts, hybrids, whatever here, just dont have any respect for the people that breed them. The people here are the people that give of all their time, effort, love, to try and help clean up this mess, how can we agree with someone who encourages to fuel the problem?

THIS is what we are against….. pure and simple.

http://hsus.typepad.com/wayne/2009/09/puppy-mills.html

http://www.witn.com/home/headlines/39204377.html

http://www.meafordexpress.com/meafordexpress/article/123851

http://www.blogcatalog.com/blogs/aschaes-dogblog/posts/tag/puppymill/

http://www.komonews.com/news/37796254.html

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=ac7bdda6-4851-45ab-ab52-793568356e40


Are these “made up stories” to elicit our bleeding hearts? Are they all figments of our imaginations? Somewhere there is an awful lot of breeding going on by unscrupulous breeders who are in it for what they can get. If you got your dog from a "breeder" who wasn't in it for the money did you get her for nothing? That breeder would be miraculous. It just does not happen.
As has been said before - we are not purebreed snobs. Far from it.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q224/taradkpsp/trolls_feed.jpg

This confuses me a little :o Do you mean that the "reputable hybrid breeders" only breed 2 different purebreds together, and that none of the puppies from such a litter are bred and must be spayed/neutered?

...YES.. clear enough I hope.. that would be my wish anyway..

This thread is starting to make my head spin, the same things just keep being reiterated on both sides of the issue. Perhaps it's time to clarify something for Draughty. This forum is not pro-purebred breeding/anti-crossbred breeding. It is a pro spay/neuter and pro-rescue forum, which discourages any and all breeding, purebred or otherwise. <SNIP>.

OK..that clarifies a lot..now tell me...where does it say that? All I saw was Pets.ca and forum for Breed Charateristics and Traits > Designer Breeds pics and info..

Now where was I supposed to see that this was a forum only for " pro spay/neuter and pro-rescue forum, which discourages any and all breeding, purebred or otherwise."????? Hmmm.. now I am beginning to wonder who is trolling? Are you waiting in the wings to pounce?

I am not anti breeding..I am anti over breeding..and seriously if you think there are ONLY designer breeds/crossbreeds in rescues.. I know much better.. I am not ignorant nor can I be swayed to believe that all dogs that are bred never find a good home or are never loved.. seriously folks.. if you really are " pro spay/neuter and pro-rescue forum, which discourages any and all breeding, purebred or otherwise." Will there be any dogs for pets for anyone.. that literally means that would be no dogs born at all..
Is that your goal..if so maybe change the sites name to www.antipets.ca?

One thing to get your message out there folks..another to kill every post-er that asks a question about breeding!

This is how you treat what is intended as constructive criticism of the forum as a whole in order to help you appear more believable in your message?
Honestly folks..this house needs to get itself in order before it attempts to correct other issues...

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q224/taradkpsp/trolls_feed.jpg

The OP asked about a particular mixed breed, and we gave answers regarding that. You are the one who decided that we were against mixed breed dogs :frustrated:

We are not against ethical breeders, we're just sick of having thousands of excess animals needing homes, and people still over breeding them to make a buck.

You just want to stir up trouble, don't you? Why don't you crawl back under the rock you came from?

ETA: LOL! I knew it wouldn't be long until you showed up again ;) Wow, you must love us, seriously! You get banned once, and come crawling back again...teehehehe! Ah, well, at least we can all just sit back and enjoy watching you burry yourself again :laughing:

Draugty, can you answer this question for me? What is the difference between your cockapoo and the thousand cockapoos in shelters?

My Cockapoo was loved and cared for and had a home..how hard is that to understand?

Is it just the intent behind the breeding? That i dont understand as the outcome in any pup of this type of breeding cannot be determined.

It is the end home of the pup isn't it?

When there are enough of there dogs, to the point many are killed, why breed more? We all love mutts, hybrids, whatever here, just dont have any respect for the people that breed them.

I think you mean overbreed..but if you don't..that is silly.. without dogs breeding...there would be no dogs.. personally I am against some people breeding as far as that goes..but I doubt that is going to happen either..

The people here are the people that give of all their time, effort, love, to try and help clean up this mess, how can we agree with someone who encourages to fuel the problem?

I am not trying to encourage the problem...just responsibility on both sides of the issue.. to totally oppose breeding of pets is silly..if that IS your goal..see ya later..if it really is to encourage responsibility in breeding and owning pets..and to give out information about owning breeding choosing and caring for pets.. then I might just stick around.. the lack of tolerance I am seeing so far really turns me off...and insures that this place will never grow beyond those that totally oppose breeding of pets in any way..

I am not anti breeding..I am anti over breeding..and seriously if you think there are ONLY designer breeds/crossbreeds in rescues.. I know much better..

Hmm.

I'm seeing many of the members repeat themselves when they say that we are a pro/rescue group. I don't see anyone telling anybody else that ONLY designer/mix dogs are in rescues, or ONLY designer/mix breeders are looked down upon except you.

The key here is that irresponsible breeders/puppy mills and the like are causing a lot of the problems that many of the members here are dedicating their lives to try and fix or at least help.

if you really are " pro spay/neuter and pro-rescue forum, which discourages any and all breeding, purebred or otherwise." Will there be any dogs for pets for anyone.. that literally means that would be no dogs born at all..

This comment leads me to believe you've never been in the rescue business, or held a dog while it was euthanized in a shelter, simply because of being there too long.

Until the overpopulation of domestic animals is under control, I for one would be SO THANKFUL to see the breeding stop.

A quote from the website DogsOnly : In the United States alone, more than 50,000 puppies and kittens are born each day. For every pet with a place he can happily call home, there are 4 companion animals who are homeless, neglected, or abused. Millions of these animals enter America's animal shelters and 30 to 60 percent of them have to be destroyed each year because no one wants them - that is 4 to 6 million animals!

Also, please read this website if you still feel that discouraging breeding is 'silly'. http://www.anticruelty.org/site/epage/36967_576.htm

I am not trying to encourage the problem...just responsibility on both sides of the issue.. to totally oppose breeding of pets is silly..if that IS your goal..see ya later..if it really is to encourage responsibility in breeding and owning pets..and to give out information about owning breeding choosing and caring for pets.. then I might just stick around.. the lack of tolerance I am seeing so far really turns me off...and insures that this place will never grow beyond those that totally oppose breeding of pets in any way..


To me - because of all those dogs that are sitting in shelters right now - the stand that many here take, IS the responsible one. And personally...I'm fairly confused as to why that offends you so much.

Now by this logic, because their is a desire for something then it should be acceptable right. So drugs should be legal, dog fights should be legal, pedophilia, child porn, etc, etc. Just because its desired doesn't mean it's right.

Hyberbole does not impress an intelligent person.. silly to compare legal activity to illegal activity..please.. let's keep this above that level?

Have I had to eutanize an animal..yes.. one that just because it didn't have a home? No .. what's the difference..I think your values and mine are seriously at odds.

I do not value animals..any animal at the level of human..is it ethical to breed purebreds or hybrids or mutts beyond the level of demand?

Let me be clear here... NO!

Please understand WHAT I am saying is not to condemn or praise your work at rescue organizations.. I find that totally laudable..do I work at a rescue shelter..no.. I have 7 kids 2 grandkids and a form of paralysis in my left leg.. I am busy and not healthy.. what I do want..is to have a pup that is not going to exacerbate my allergies any more than is necessary..and poodle or maltese crosses that shed very very little are much better for that... that is all I am asking..can I find a dog that at a shelter that fits all of those needs..is small enough for our household AND has the temperament to deal with all the little kids coming and going for my wifes piano classes AND can deal with my son who is autistic and 18 going 5? Not likely... the ony one that comes close was recommended to go a home with a retired couple since it didn't deal well with kids..
What I CAN do ..is get one of the less allergy irritating pups already in this world and give it good home..isn't THAT acceptable..or should I wait til it is sent to a shelter?

Have I had to eutanize an animal..yes.. one that just because it didn't have a home? No .. what's the difference..I think your values and mine are seriously at odds.
[/SIZE]

I'm surprised by this comment, because having to euthanize any animal is horrible. It's sad, emotional, and very hard to do. Having to euthanize a perfectly healthy, loving animal because no one wanted it? Let me be clear. This is VERY different.

can I find a dog that at a shelter that fits all of those needs..is small enough for our household AND has the temperament to deal with all the little kids coming and going for my wifes piano classes AND can deal with my son who is autistic and 18 going 5?

I suppose we don't have the same shelters/rescues nearby, because from my experience your 'terms' for a dog aren't that odd nor are they rare. When I was looking for our second dog, many of the rescue adoption coordinators referred me to OTHER rescues that they thought may have a better selection of dogs. (We have a 15 month old daughter and also had our own personal reasons for getting the type of dog we were looking for.) It took us FOUR months to find our beautiful lab mix, who we eventually adopted from a rescue three hours away.

But Draughty, I'm not going to argue with you about whether or not you need to adopt from a shelter. I'm just trying to explain why we - here at pets - are telling you we don't support mainstream breeding. Too many dogs need homes, period, it's that simple.

I applaud your effort to search for a dog that suited your family, I know it can be challenging.

I was raised with purebred dogs but now, as an adult with my own family, three wonderful breed mixes own me. One of which you'd consider a "hybrid." She's still a mix to me. All were shelter dogs, no better no worse than the dogs I grew up with, and I wouldn't trade them in for the world.

For any visitors to this thread, we love animals period. Whether they be purebreds or mixed breeds. What we're against is unscrupulous profit motivated breeding to fill consumer demands, especially when the novelty wears off and these living, breathing, feeling beings become disposable like last week's garbage.

I do not value animals..any animal at the level of human..is it ethical to breed purebreds or hybrids or mutts beyond the level of demand?

Let me be clear here... NO!



Sooooo, you are against breeding then :confused:, because anybody breeding today is breeding beyond demand. There are thousands of dogs and cats euthanized every day because they don't have homes. Supply exceeds demand.

Hyberbole does not impress an intelligent person.. silly to compare legal activity to illegal activity..please.. let's keep this above that level?

If i was having this conversation WITH an intelligent person and not someone who is only here to twist words and stir up trouble I may have approached you differently. So lets make this clear so you understand. We never said there aren't purebreeds in rescue just not too many are purebreeds from a responsible breeder( its in your friggen contract that you MUST return an unwanted pet to the breeder.)

If you READ what you agreed to when you joined the forum you would have seen that it says in REAAAAALLY big letters that most of the members here are pro spay/neuter.

At this point I have had enough of this stupidity and am willing to get in trouble for it. Draughty people have distinct ways of writing, you can change your name as many times as you like, several of us know that you have been here before and banned not once but twice. My suggestion to you now is instead of coming to a pro spay/neuter site stirring up crap with people who spend thousands of dollars, hours and tears looking after the unwanted pets of your brilliant idea. Please go and create your own forum, enlist as large a member base as you like and preach the wonder of breeding mutts all you like. For those of us that love this forum, our friends here and being able to support each other. We'll keep our messed up, one sided ignorant forum just the way it is.

yes i could add you to my ignore list as could the others, but this wouldn't prevent you from continuing to post this garbage and conveying a message to new comers that we don't want. Plain and simple if you own an animal, get it fixed. leave the breeding to those that not only know how to do it, but care about the animals.

Draughty - In case you are having problems finding the rules.........

http://www.pets.ca/forum/announcement.php?f=10&a=12

This discussion should have ended on May 25.

If i was having this conversation WITH an intelligent person and not someone who is only here to twist words and stir up trouble I may have approached you differently. So lets make this clear so you understand. We never said there aren't purebreeds in rescue just not too many are purebreeds from a responsible breeder( its in your friggen contract that you MUST return an unwanted pet to the breeder.)

If you READ what you agreed to when you joined the forum you would have seen that it says in REAAAAALLY big letters that most of the members here are pro spay/neuter.

At this point I have had enough of this stupidity and am willing to get in trouble for it. Draughty people have distinct ways of writing, you can change your name as many times as you like, several of us know that you have been here before and banned not once but twice. My suggestion to you now is instead of coming to a pro spay/neuter site stirring up crap with people who spend thousands of dollars, hours and tears looking after the unwanted pets of your brilliant idea. Please go and create your own forum, enlist as large a member base as you like and preach the wonder of breeding mutts all you like. For those of us that love this forum, our friends here and being able to support each other. We'll keep our messed up, one sided ignorant forum just the way it is.

yes i could add you to my ignore list as could the others, but this wouldn't prevent you from continuing to post this garbage and conveying a message to new comers that we don't want. Plain and simple if you own an animal, get it fixed. leave the breeding to those that not only know how to do it, but care about the animals.

Sorry Aslan I must have missed those REALLY big letters..but suffice it to say that just like you I am pro-spay/neuter as well..I have stated above that I would far prefer that all breeders be licensed and that NO dog leaving that facility would be leaving without being neutered/spayed ..

I am sorry to have upset you.. truth is I found this forum just this week and have never been here before..for the most part as I look around I see pet lovers of all types.. it is only here in the so called (and to me highly misrepresented) designer dog area that I find such contentious behaviour.. if my manner of writing reminds you of someone else, could it be that you simply lump all of those who might disagree with you on some specific forms of breeding into one and the same person? I would think you have some deep seated hostility towards those like me who might just beg to differ on reasonable grounds.

I find Aslan that I would like to find more of your namesakes traits in your posts and in your spirit.. I saw the name and was delighted to see that someone was using the great Aslan as their moniker only to discover a bitter and contentious soul who must have undergone great torment in the area of pets period. I find that fact to have a couple of possible reasons and all of those would speak to great compassion for pets and for that reason I will not mock you or make fun of you ..but will only laud your efforts in attempting to help pets not have to undergo euthanasia for any reason except for the relief of pain illness or extreme old age.

My compliments to those who over the last couple have read past my support of 'hybrids' to the points I make about those dogs being neutered asap after birth.. I do not promote irresponisible breeding..

I do however contend with the notion that each and EVERY dog being bred on this specific day will go to a home or would not have caring homes to go to. the point being that supply and demand are out of balance..not that supply of these dogs completely unused and uncared for.

Yes..if possible and if I can find a pet within reasonable distance and that fits our needs I will do so. However I may keep one of those living and lovable pups that has already been born from going to a shelter for lack of a home..

Thanks for your comments..I do take them into consideration..I am however an independent thinker who gathers all the facts and all of the opinions..not just one set from one group.. I can totally understand how those of you who are so involved in rescuing animals from puppy mills etc would find the idea of bringing any puppies into the world to be anathema or worse.

I think however that would be much like going into the backstreets of Bombay or any other overcrowded underpriveleged part of the world and declaring that no one in all the world should procreate because there are babies there dying of hunger and disease while in Montana or other parts of the world there are populations densities of less than a person per square mile and parents desparately seeking a child to adopt who would gladly take in those dying children if only the governing bodies of the various countries did not make it impossible to do so.

To stop all breeding would only eradicate dogs from the face of the earth..to regulate it may at least drive the puppy mills into a lesser existence.. to educate all people with the knowledge of how to care for and the knowledge of how to choose a pet that they can be sucessful with will do more in the long run.. to accomplish your goals..

If I could I would highly recommend reading the book Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell..apply it's principles to your cause.. be humble..be patient..be polite and be encouraging.. seriously if you apply the ideas Gladwell promotes in his book you may just find a simple small way that might be more productive in reducing pet overbreeding.. action.. words in the right places and combinations.. simple things can make HUGE differences in the perception others will have of your cause and in you own effectiveness...

I hope this helps..

Sooooo, you are against breeding then :confused:, because anybody breeding today is breeding beyond demand. There are thousands of dogs and cats euthanized every day because they don't have homes. Supply exceeds demand.

Personally I find this statement a bit ridiculous..no I am not totally against breeding.. it would preferable that pups were spoken for before breeding.. but that is difficult as well.. supply exceeds demand ..but not by 100% I would reckon.. I see far too many puppies being taken into homes and spoken for on the sites that attempting to sell the same breeds/hybrids you are so demeaning of .. breeders who do offer common sense recommendations and many (though not all unfortunately) demand a signed contract for spaying/neutering .. I would far rather that the spay/neuter contract be a prepaid session at a local vet but I don't see that happening as yet..but..with some reasonable encouragement that might come into realization in the near future..

Steps such as that.. supplying a paid for neutering or spaying could just be one step towards the goals of many of you.. myself included.

Well it's wonderful to see we agree on a large portion of the issue, so lets just agree to disagree on the rest ok.

So now i think you should create a thread and post eleventy billion pictures of your penny so we can all oooooh and aaaaaw.:thumbs up

hmmmm apparantly you forgot this post, where i suggested we agree to disagree and hope this whole topic would close. Unfortunately this didn't happen so yes i did get upset. Just as the mighty Aslan would too, as for being bitter, not at all and if you knew me or anything about me you would know that. But when it comes to someone promoting any form of unneccessary breeding right now then yup like the mighty aslan I will fight to defend. I have rescued several animals over the years and recently battled for almost a year to help one with the help of every well educated member on heres help. Because of some moron thinking it was ok to just mass breed animals, then locking him in a cage for the first 6mths of his life I ended up finally having to destroy an animal i loved dearly and couldn't help. SO YES, i have a real issue with someone wanting to breed ANYTHING(purebred,hybrid, mutt). Walk in 14+'s, Luckypennys, HazelRunPacks, Frenchy's and most of all Benmax's shoes for a week and you will see why i and anyone else here is upset. If that makes me soulless then i'll be holding the door open for the others when they get there.

Personally I find this statement a bit ridiculous..no I am not totally against breeding.. it would preferable that pups were spoken for before breeding.. but that is difficult as well.. supply exceeds demand ..but not by 100% I would reckon.. I see far too many puppies being taken into homes and spoken for on the sites that attempting to sell the same breeds/hybrids you are so demeaning of .. breeders who do offer common sense recommendations and many (though not all unfortunately) demand a signed contract for spaying/neutering .. I would far rather that the spay/neuter contract be a prepaid session at a local vet but I don't see that happening as yet..but..with some reasonable encouragement that might come into realization in the near future..

Steps such as that.. supplying a paid for neutering or spaying could just be one step towards the goals of many of you.. myself included.

I don't think anybody is demeaning of mixed breeds on this site, we just love all animals. We just want people to stop breeding while there are wonderful, loving ones in the shelters being euthanized. That just picks my a$$ and in my mind contributes to the overpopulation of pets. I don't care what type of breeder you are.

Actually, I am a self proclaimed shelter/rescue snob and not shy saying I love being one. Don't care what type of pup or cat it is.


As for pups that are "spoken for before breeding", well don't you know it, they end up in shelters too.

I don't understand why you think a "hybrid" is not a mutt?

I have been following this conversation for a while and it's truly making my head spin. I apologise in advance for the length of this.

Draughty, regardless of how eloquently you put it, you are going in circles.

You speak of hybrids being different than random crosses, but as hazel told you the intent does not change the genetic outcome.

Take for example broccolini, the vegetable which is a hybrid between broccoli and chinese kale. It resulted from crosses and recrosses over several generations using traditional hand pollination. 7 years later they came up with 'Asparation', later trademarked as broccolini. Broccolini has seeds, you can grow it now and consistently get the same vegetable. Biologically it is a new species.

Only in this context, whereby a hybrid is essentially a completely different species, then yes I agree with you - hybrids *are* different than random crosses.

However you seem to be mixing and matching different definitions for the word 'hybrid' based on your current arguement. You cant have both worlds...either a hybrid is a new species and not interchangeable with the word 'cross' or it is. A maltipoo or a labradoodle or whatever 'designer breed' out there is no different than the random (amazing) dog I can pick up at the spca.

You argue that if we knew anythng about agriculture etc we would know that they use hybrids all the time. Well I know just a tad, and I agree with you. There is a big difference though. Take my previous example, if in the initial crosses of broccoli with kale they got some unsatisfactory product the worst thing that happens to the failed attempt is it gets thrown out. If the same happens with a 'pure cross' of a poodle with a maltese...can they just throw the rejects out? Ethically, no. Does it happen? Yes. Even if they are not 'thrown out', many get dubious homes or owners who think the pup is cute but nobody, not even the 'breeder', can tell them what to expect.

Now the producers of broccolini werent stupid, they continued to cross, recross etc etc till they were able to come up with new species that produced seed so that they could supply the world with their new vegetable. It may have taken 7 years but it was done. With crosses in the industry I think the main goal will always be to create a new species...relying on lady luck would never cut it when you have to stock grocery shelves. I wouldn't be too happy if one day my broccolini looked more like broccoli and then the next day it was more like kale. Consistency is key.

Another problem with part of your argument is that you don't want a maltipoo mated with a maltipoo, you want a pure matlese crossed with a pure poodle every time and I quote: to get a pure cross you must have two differing purebred breeds not two hybrids..anyone passing off the progeny of two hybrid dogs as another hybrid is ignorant, unscrupulous or both!. So using your method of thinking a new species would never be formed, there would always be rejects and always be an inconsistency with regards to the outcome. Within the same litter you would likely have large differences!

If my friend has a maltipoo and I think wow, look at that tempermant..it's so happy go lucky or whatever and thought: I want a a maltipoo! When I go to a 'breeder' to get one I'm likely not to find those same traits in their litter. Why? Because those traits are not fixed with a cross (as hazel explained). And its not just personality traits but physical traits (like shedding or being hypoallergenic). So why breed these crosses in the first place? Either get a pure bred *or* get a wonderful mutt from the shelter.


Now, just to be clear, I am not advocating forming a true new species of 'maltipoos' or any other dog but I am just presenting the problem with your arguements.

Lastly, please don't question the intelligence of our members. We may not all use fancy words (u do have a nice vocab), or formal writing styles but that doesn't mean we're not smart. I'm sorry but your writing style reminds me of when my little brother writes essays. He uses big words because he thinks it will impress his teachers/profs...but half the time it blatantly obvious he's covering up his weak arguements with his thesaurus.

To stop all breeding would only eradicate dogs from the face of the earth..to regulate it may at least drive the puppy mills into a lesser existence.. to educate all people with the knowledge of how to care for and the knowledge of how to choose a pet that they can be sucessful with will do more in the long run.. to accomplish your goals..

Draughty, I respect most everyones opinions - whether I agree with it or not - and try to understand where people are coming from when they write something. But that comment totally got under my skin.

My JOB is to educate people with the knowledge of how to care for and choose a pet successfully and maintain a wonderful relationship with their dog afterwards. I spend most of my days with owners and their pets, helping them to understand their pet better and ensure that they KEEP it.
Not to mention all our hardworking members who are constantly rescuing abandoned, abused, or neglected animals - using money out of their own pockets to ensure the animal can have a better future. This happens BECAUSE OF OVERBREEDING first and foremost. Whether or not you believe it can be stopped is a mute issue, IMO. It's what we dedicate our lives to doing, to hopefully help solve part of the problem.

To have someone tell us that our lives, our goals, the things we are so passionate about - is silly? Or lame? Or we're wasting our time? Is just bad taste, and I'm sure you can understand where WE are coming from.

Please don't start making assumptions that we don't do all we can in every aspect of our lives to make this world a better place for dogs and cats alike. That is taking things a bit too far, don't you think?

Have I had to eutanize an animal..yes.. one that just because it didn't have a home? No .. what's the difference..I think your values and mine are seriously at odds.

I do not value animals..any animal at the level of human..is it ethical to breed purebreds or hybrids or mutts beyond the level of demand?

Let me be clear here... NO!

Please understand WHAT I am saying is not to condemn or praise your work at rescue organizations.. I find that totally laudable..do I work at a rescue shelter..no.. I have 7 kids 2 grandkids and a form of paralysis in my left leg.. I am busy and not healthy.. what I do want..is to have a pup that is not going to exacerbate my allergies any more than is necessary..and poodle or maltese crosses that shed very very little are much better for that... that is all I am asking..can I find a dog that at a shelter that fits all of those needs..is small enough for our household AND has the temperament to deal with all the little kids coming and going for my wifes piano classes AND can deal with my son who is autistic and 18 going 5? Not likely... the ony one that comes close was recommended to go a home with a retired couple since it didn't deal well with kids..
What I CAN do ..is get one of the less allergy irritating pups already in this world and give it good home..isn't THAT acceptable..or should I wait til it is sent to a shelter?

When my girls were in elementary school, I volunteered my time at the local shelter. Once a week, the shelter manager would walk through with us and we would discuss the adoptablity of each and every animal we had - from young puppies to older dogs, kittens we had held when they were born and old feral cats. At the end of the walk through, I would get to hold the animals that were less adoptable (usually anything older then 10 weeks as it was a small community) while the manager injected them with enough anesthetic to stop their hearts. People who do these things have a very different perspective on what you are talking about then you do. And since you seem to be a reasonable man, I am guessing that if you had this job for a week or two, you might too.

Right now, there are 2,836 poodles listed on Petfinder. There are 180 cockapoos. There are 764 maltese. There are 682 Bichons. There are 1,181 yorkshire terriers. These are all breeds recommended for those with allergies and I am betting that many of them would fit your requirements.

You have your dog. And we are very glad that you are happy with it, even though it doesn't sound like it. We just want you to know that there are other ways to find the kind of dog you are looking for without paying a breeder who isn't ethical and above board.

When my girls were in elementary school, I volunteered my time at the local shelter. Once a week, the shelter manager would walk through with us and we would discuss the adoptablity of each and every animal we had - from young puppies to older dogs, kittens we had held when they were born and old feral cats. At the end of the walk through, I would get to hold the animals that were less adoptable (usually anything older then 10 weeks as it was a small community) while the manager injected them with enough anesthetic to stop their hearts. People who do these things have a very different perspective on what you are talking about then you do. And since you seem to be a reasonable man, I am guessing that if you had this job for a week or two, you might too.

Right now, there are 2,836 poodles listed on Petfinder. There are 180 cockapoos. There are 764 maltese. There are 682 Bichons. There are 1,181 yorkshire terriers. These are all breeds recommended for those with allergies and I am betting that many of them would fit your requirements.

You have your dog. And we are very glad that you are happy with it, even though it doesn't sound like it. We just want you to know that there are other ways to find the kind of dog you are looking for without paying a breeder who isn't ethical and above board.

Well said, LR. :thumbs up

Draughty - gotta thank you for one thing. I, being of Scottish descent on my mom's side and Irish descent on my dad's always considered myself a bit of a "mutt". Nice to know I'm not a mutt. I am a hybrid. :thumbs up
Now how about we just put an end to this circle of redundancy that is going nowhere except for giving me a biatch of a headache!!! We believe one thing. You believe another. We can't change your mind obviously and I for one am done trying. :shrug:

I would just like to point out some things... Draughty, you came to this forum, you obviously have NOT read the rules and practically called well-respected members here names and have descended as far as dissing someone's nick name. You obviously don't want to hear other people's opinions, but are pushing your own, even if it makes no real sense. Your whole speech about kids, grandkids and disability is meant for what? to make you look more credible? LOL
And that part about volunteering at a shelter...What a bunch of baloney. If you did volunteer for one day - you would not argue with people here, but support them.

The point that you keep missing, that has been repeatedly brought to your attention:

WE LOVE PETS...ALL PETS.
WHAT WE ARE AGAINST IS BREEDING IRRESPONSIBLY, WHILE THOUSANDS OF OTHER LABRADOODLES, SCHNORKIES, MORKIES, CHI-TSUS AND OTHER X-KIES DIE EVERY SINGLE DAY. WE EDUCATE, WE PROMOTE SHELTERS. THAT'S ALL WE CAN DO AT THIS POINT.

I am using plain words, for I feel it's clearer without your elaborate and eloquent wording, that makes people's heads hurt. I hope you understand and stick around long enough to get to know these amazing people here, who give their lives every day to fight the current situation.

And if you choose to stay, please be a little more respectful.:thumbs up

Just my humble :2cents:.

I am glad I do not have internet at home as I would have been consumed in this thread....well maybe not since I was fundraising to help pay some vet bills for abandoned, neglected and abused dogs and cats....of all mixes and breeds.

Everyone here at pets love their animals whether they are mixed or pure. To us we really don't care. We support on another at our times of need and we discuss our experiences whether triumphant, sorrows, laughter and tears.

We also strongly know about the over population of purebreds, mixes and the likes, and we do our best to network amongst ourselves to find homes for animals in need...It is tough, long and strenious work but we pull together and sometimes are able to see miracles. This is our collective joys.

This weekend during the fundraiser, someone brought in an unwanted 'hybrid'. Sweet soul. We will help him. We will find him someone who will love him. That is our mission.

I will not under any circumstances promote breeding. Our society needs a break from that. I cannot tell you how many animals I have helped over the bridge, how many I could not help at all due to severe medical issues, how many I could not get into foster status. I could go on but I will refrain from doing so because I feel it pointless. Everyone knows.

I hope that one day you will understand why we are passionate about this subject matter. I hope that maybe one visit at a kill pound or at a shelter you will see what we see. Educating ourselves and forcing ourselves to learn and see is power. You will see that there are no words to say. The proof is there, right under our noses. There are some that will force themselves to look while there are others that will pretend that there is no problem.

Sleep or don't sleep....most of us don't sleep.

BenMax, a real treasure you are..

Draughty, I don't foster dogs anymore at the moment, but am still very involved in rescue, I am not sure why you call us close minded, that we don't listen, it really is the very opposite if you took time getting to know people on here before attacking. It is sad that you don't have the experiences to see our side, and you will not be changing anyone's mind here, there is no point for you to try.

A responsible ethical breeder breeds their dogs, not very often, usually just a litter every couple years or so, but they do it for the love of the breed, to improve the breed, breeding dogs that are champions, and proven usually in many areas, they health test their dogs for everything under the sun, and no expense is spared, the choose carefully homes that will get a pup prior to the breeding, the pup goes home with a signed contract spay/neuter, microchip, shots, a health guaruntee. These are not the dogs you find in rescue, they must go back to them, and if they end up somewhere they should not be the breeder spares no expense it getting them back. Sure you see purebreds in rescue, however they are coming from irresponsible people, not the good ones. These people are motivated by a few things to breed, however, the money they will be paid is NOT one of them, they usually LOSE money on breeding dogs, it is a hobby that they support, not a hobby that supports them. Those perhaps are the breeders we encourage someone to support when looking for a dog, we are not purebred pushers, we discourage all else, but of coarse recommend and choose for ourselves rescue first and foremost.

I see your goal is that it is ok to breed a dog as long as it has a good home to go to. If people want and will pay for these pups and give them loving forever homes than it is a reason to breed. that sounds to me like the reasoning of someone not experienced or educated in this whole area.. There are already millions of similar crosses waiting for a home, for every pup born and given to a new home, one will die. How about NOT breed for any of these reasons, and give the ones waiting a home first. Having a cute well tempered dog, a dog that people ask you about and say they want one, the fact you can charge $500 a pup, the fact that all the pups get sold and none left behind, NONE of these are valid reasons to breed. I will never ever agree with breeding of hybrids, mutts, crosses ect, EVER, there is no reason, there are enough and the motivations of the people taking advantage of their dogs make me sick. So continue on with your fancy words and long posts, we will read them, but you are delusional to think you will even come close the changing the minds of anyone here.

Take my situation for example... I foster cats, Several times a year I get a pregnant mother that is close to delivering, to close for my vet to abort her, so I take them in, with my time and my energy and my money, I care for all of them, I raise them, give them all the medical care possible, then search for good homes. While I am doing this there are countless people letting their unfixed cat run free, they are letting their cats breed, then posting ads for cute kittens free to a good home, how can I compete with that??? The kittens that come from me are not free, I don't get a penny of any adoption fee, but I put out sometimes hundreds of dollars for each litter. How is it right for people to breed on purpose when I am giving so much to clean their mess up for them, so thanklessly.. It is the same with dogs, and I hope that you can open your eyes to see that. When there are people that suffer through heatbreak and give more of themselves than most even have to give to save the ones that suffer, how is it fair for a person to go and breed their dog to make a buck?

Spend a day in the shoes of some of the wonderful people on here. See if you have enough inside yourself to give for one day what they have been giving for years, just one day, then come back and tell me that you think we should breed a few thousand cockapoo's today. Go to the pound, pick the cutest dog on death row, and take him into the room, lie him on the cold table, and comfort him as he looks into your eyes thwaping his tail on the table because he thinks finally someone is here to love him, stroke him as he is injected and closes his eyes for the last time, after doing nothing wrong, there is just no one to take him home, walk out of there, go home, log on here and then tell me that breeding mutts is a great idea, but please until you do that, I don't want to hear anymore about how we are wrong, and somehow there is enough room in this world to be breeding more hybrids.

Luvmylab: your post made cry. Every person who allows their pet to breed should volunteer in a kill shelter. It would surely open their eyes.

Again..my only intention here is to help YOU stop some of your own badmouthing of people who are doing a desired service for people that want it.

The bottom line if people really understood what they were paying way to much money for something that you could go to any rescue, animal shelter and find tons of these so called designer breeds. They would not be forking out way too much money for a mutt or designer breed samething anyhow.
I find it outrageous that people get so pissed when they call the dog a mutt who really cares as long as they are loved and cared for. And they are mutts. The only reason people want the service is because they do not know better and they are still backyard breeders. People just need to be educated. I think I may have found a good way to make some extra money for shelters and rescues, advertise them as some designer breed and ask more money for them.

LuvMyLab - thank you for your post. The death you describe reminds me of how many dogs I have seen die, or the ones that we and other rescues recieve, or just going to shelters or pounds and 'selecting' those we can save. All those eyes, all those faces and all those dogs I could not give a second chance to. The gas chamber place.....I shudder as I remember all those I was not allowed to take and finding out that they were killed in the end...and yes one was a little terrified terrier X pug. Oh yes....we need to keep on breeding. We need more designer hybrids, mutts, or the likes in this system.

In the end - it's only the animals that suffer. Most of us get it and others are too greedy, to self aborbed to even entertain the fact that we have a crisis.

I only pray that our youth will be able to carry the torch. I have high hopes for our children to correct our ways, to be kind to ourselves and our creatures. I hope that they are not trying to justify our evils as we do today, come up with excuses, make up new arguements that justify the means.

As my daughters teacher said to her this morning....

"if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem"

is breeding hybrid cocker spaniel poodledoodlewhatcawhooos part of the solution Draughty????

LuvMyLab - thank you for your post. The death you describe reminds me of how many dogs I have seen die, or the ones that we and other rescues recieve, or just going to shelters or pounds and 'selecting' those we can save. All those eyes, all those faces and all those dogs I could not give a second chance to. The gas chamber place.....I shudder as I remember all those I was not allowed to take and finding out that they were killed in the end...and yes one was a little terrified terrier X pug. Oh yes....we need to keep on breeding. We need more designer hybrids, mutts, or the likes in this system.

In the end - it's only the animals that suffer. Most of us get it and others are too greedy, to self aborbed to even entertain the fact that we have a crisis.

I only pray that our youth will be able to carry the torch. I have high hopes for our children to correct our ways, to be kind to ourselves and our creatures. I hope that they are not trying to justify our evils as we do today, come up with excuses, make up new arguements that justify the means.

GAS CHAMBER??? Geeeezzuz, BM, what you have seen! :sad: Breaks my heart....

This past weekend DH helped me transfer four dogs and three cats from our city shelter to two different rescues. This is a regular occurance in our home when asked for help; but after reading this thread, it gives me all the more reason to rejoice after we do this and ask myself why we aren't doing more in this area. (And a special thanks to all of our members who ARE.)