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BSL in Kitchener!

sammiec
August 9th, 2004, 11:49 AM
Babs: I had replied to the other thread, but I don't think that we should hijack what was meant to be a nice thread. I know that KW already has banned pit bulls/mixes. It's been in affect for quite a while now..what investigating had you done before moving there?

sammiec
August 9th, 2004, 11:56 AM
Babs I own a pit bull and Lucky - if she ever gets to this thread will have some good input here to!

Were you able to get a license for her to be registered in KW?

Babs
August 9th, 2004, 11:58 AM
We were aware of the "ban", and had a local Vet here in Kitchener take a look at her. As I mentioned in that thread, the Vet believes and is prepared to register her as a "boxer cross".

The only concern I have is that we adopted her in Ottawa from the Humane Society, and she was microchipped. The Humane Society has her listed as a Pit Bull Cross. I do not want to get this Vet into any trouble before I proceed, nor do I want to lose a pet who has been with us for 8 years. She's never done anything bad to anyone, is properly trained and very well socialized.

I am looking for as much information as possible before we proceed with registration. I'm trying to be cautious.

Here's what she looks like:

http://www.babayaaga.com/images/lokiweb.jpg http://www.babayaaga.com/images/lokiears.jpg

sammiec
August 9th, 2004, 12:02 PM
That microchip informaion is stored in a central database as far as I know, I haven't yet had to change my information so I don't know what to suggest for that. But if she does get lost and you have her chip registered to Ottawa still, they will not be able to reach you. You have to change that phone number at least. I guess the real question is that if you change that information will it show up about bans and such for your new address. That I don't know...
You might be able to get away with saying that she's a boxer cross. I hope you can!

added: She's VERY cute!!!

Babs
August 9th, 2004, 12:04 PM
The other point of note is that the BSL in Kitchener is being enforced "by" the local Humane Society (which I find completely bizarre, considering what HS is supposed to represent).

As much as I would love to contact the HS in Ottawa, you can naturally understand my concern.

sammiec
August 9th, 2004, 12:10 PM
Animal Control and the HS are run by the city aren't they? It's a very weird set up, but anything that resembles a pit will be scrutinized. If she ever gets loose and ends up there, you will NOT get her back! :(
Oh Babs!! I wish there was something that we could do to help you! I agree that BSL is complete ludacris, but there's nothing that we can really do right now to change the minds of those know-nothings at city hall. :mad:
I guess selling your house isn't an option? What about living outside the city -St. Jacobs is nice.. I lived in KW for 1 year. I visit often, friends live in and around the city.

HS page (http://www.kwhumane.com/html/animal_control.html)

Consequences:
Any prohibited Pit Bull in the City is to be removed from the City or delivered to the Humane Society for humane euthanasia.

mastifflover
August 9th, 2004, 12:19 PM
This is awful that responsible owners now have to lie to get there dogs registered. Do you honestly think that the a**holes that create fighting and aggressive dogs are going to care about a breed ban it will just make it more interesting to see if they can outfox the government. Not that it would be much of a challenge since no one actually does anything in government these days anyhow. I also cannot believe the HS supports this useless ban. P.S. Change the phone number on your microchip and leave the address info and inform your previous vet as to where you are in case your baby does get lost and explain to him why you are doing this. This way the address is out of KW.

Babs
August 9th, 2004, 12:21 PM
We are not sure how long we will stay here. We both want to move back to Ottawa, but this house needs some work before it is ready to sell. In addition, there is employment to consider. There has to be work wherever we go.

My family owns and operates a business here in Kitchener, which is what initially attracted us to come here. We're both veterans of the IT industry, but despite our constant search we have not found anything stable (other than brief contracts), in over 2 years.

So you could say we're in a catch-22. Staying here means we have an employment future in the family business, where moving is like playing russian roulette.

sammiec
August 9th, 2004, 12:27 PM
Living outside KW will let you have the option to keep your dog and work in the family business. It's not a long drive at ALL!! This is potentially a VERY serious problem! People can and will snitch when they see you walking the dog! There's a fine for you and euthenasia for the dog unless you have her removed immediately (when/if they catch you!) These people are heartless and stupid, they don't really give a crap. If it's banned, it's banned. They unfortunately have no qualms about putting the dog down!
Like mastiff said - responsible pet owners that mean no harm and have loving wonderful dogs unfortunately pay the price for the idiot punks that do nothing but harm the reputation of this breed! :mad:

Babs
August 9th, 2004, 12:30 PM
We have a contingency plan lined up in case someone does snitch. My mother lives in rural Ontario, where Loki will stay until we relocate... if it comes down to that. In the meantime, we hope we can get this place ready for market soon enough to move to outlying areas.

In fact, I would prefer to live as far away from a City Center as possible. After living in downtown Toronto for 6 years, I'm about done with pavement.

Lucky Rescue
August 9th, 2004, 12:31 PM
Your dog looks like a Boxer/pit mix to me, but in the end it doesn't matter what YOU say she is, if someone else thinks she's a pit bull.:(

Some places have BSL, but it's not enforced. Don't know about Kitchener.

Babs
August 9th, 2004, 12:33 PM
As a footnote, recently we tried to change our info on Petnet for Loki.

Seems any registration information we had for her is not found in their database. I tried using every phone number we have had, including Ottawa and Toronto information.

What's up with that?

Goldenmom
August 9th, 2004, 12:34 PM
I live in Kitchener and it is enforced. I suggest you find a nice rural property, as there are many around the outskirts of Kitchener-Waterloo.

Heather and her 3 Golden Girls

sammiec
August 9th, 2004, 12:37 PM
I'm sorry, I don't know that much about PetNet. Is that who the HS in Ottawa uses? I know it's a microchip pet finder.. but there are MANY of them, just wondering if you could have got the companies mixed up.. Have you tried your previous addresses?

sammiec
August 9th, 2004, 12:38 PM
I live in Kitchener and it is enforced. I suggest you find a nice rural property, as there are many around the outskirts of Kitchener-Waterloo.

Heather and her 3 Golden Girls

That's what I thought. :( Thanks for the help GM!!

Babs
August 9th, 2004, 12:40 PM
That's a very good question Sam. In fact, I'm not sure why I assume Pet Net. Somehow that is in my memory. I'm looking at her adoption certificate right now, and all it says is "Microchip Number" on the form, so really I have no idea.

Thanks for info Golden. I don't mind sharing how welcome we feel to this community. I can't believe I grew up here :(.

sammiec
August 9th, 2004, 12:42 PM
The top of the form should have a manufacture's name and information. And you would have filled out all the contact information below.. They usually put a sticker from the chip with her "code" on the page. That manufacture would have all the information somewhere. If you can't find that out. I would call the HS in Ottawa, they might be able to provide you with more information...

Babs
August 9th, 2004, 12:46 PM
Top of the form says the following:

The Humane Society of Ottawa-Carleton
101 Champagne Avenue South, Ottawa, Ontario, K1S 4P3

There's an Agreement number sticker.

The bottom of the form is perforated, and has the Medical Certificate Information... including the "Microchip Number" section. Nothing about any outside Microchip company. I wasn't aware that HS had their own microchip program?

sammiec
August 9th, 2004, 12:49 PM
I don't think they do, it's usually subcontracted. I think your best bet is to call them and confirm! You don't have to tell htem that you live in Kitchener, just say that you are in the midst of moving and wanted to see what direction you would have to go with changing the microchip information.

Babs
August 9th, 2004, 12:54 PM
Good call, thanks.

If nothing else, this thread has certainly encouraged me to think about hastening the prep/sale of our home.

sammiec
August 9th, 2004, 12:56 PM
Just please be careful with her! No off leash! If she gets away and AC picks her up, they will euthanise her. Keep us updated on your progress. SELL THAT HOUSE!!! LOL! - Good luck! :D

Goldenmom
August 9th, 2004, 01:12 PM
Thanks for info Golden. I don't mind sharing how welcome we feel to this community. I can't believe I grew up here :(.


Sorry that you feel this way. I believe that there were way too many attacks and this is what they felt would help that. I don't make the rules, I just live here.
:D

Kitchener-Waterloo IS a wonderful city to live in. It is becoming very business prosperous. I volunteer at the Humane Society here, but don't have any dealings with the rules.

Heather

Lucky Rescue
August 9th, 2004, 01:36 PM
This is awful that responsible owners now have to lie to get there dogs registered. Do you honestly think that the a**holes that create fighting and aggressive dogs are going to care about a breed ban it will just make it more interesting to see if they can outfox the government.

Yes. The only people hurt are the law abiding, responsible people. Laws have never stopped criminals from doing illegal things. The "A**hole" scumbags will just move on to other breeds, which they are already doing. BSL will just increase the abuse of these dogs, some of whom are born, fought and die in basements without ever seeing the light of day. :(

Babs
August 9th, 2004, 01:38 PM
It's funny how the media will report stories on Pit Bull or other "dangerous breed" attacks, but you rarely see reports of say, a poodle attack.

Either people love to hear bad pit bull stories, or the media believes that they do.

For the record, my parents and brother bought a Llasa Apso a few years back. Since they've purchased the puppy, this dog has bitten my father, stepmum, brother (2x), my husband and myself... and my dog!!!

2 of those attacks resulted in stitches, my father's hand and my brother's face! It's a cute little puffy thing to look at, but there is absolutely no knowing when it will bite!

Of course, you'd never read that in the KW Record.

Writing4Fun
August 9th, 2004, 01:49 PM
Have any of you considered writing a story to this effect and submitting it to some papers? I know I'd be interested in reading it, and I'm sure a lot of papers would love to print it - they love stories with a fresh new twist! :rolleyes:

sammiec
August 9th, 2004, 01:53 PM
It's funny how the media will report stories on Pit Bull or other "dangerous breed" attacks, but you rarely see reports of say, a poodle attack.

It's sickening isn't it! There's a story that I posted in another forum about 2 guys being mugged using a pit bull. The 2 guy held up the others with a knife a gun and a pit bull. The pit bull did nothing, but it had to be metioned anyway... it's so ridiculous. I have contacted many organizations about helping volunteer and presenting a positive pit bull image, by having information sessions, meeting some dogs, stuff like that, but haven't been contacted back. No one wants to hear it... :( Here's (http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2004/07/21/550790.html) the story...

Did you call the shelter in Ottawa?

Goldenmom
August 9th, 2004, 02:12 PM
It's funny how the media will report stories on Pit Bull or other "dangerous breed" attacks, but you rarely see reports of say, a poodle attack.

Either people love to hear bad pit bull stories, or the media believes that they do.

For the record, my parents and brother bought a Llasa Apso a few years back. Since they've purchased the puppy, this dog has bitten my father, stepmum, brother (2x), my husband and myself... and my dog!!!

2 of those attacks resulted in stitches, my father's hand and my brother's face! It's a cute little puffy thing to look at, but there is absolutely no knowing when it will bite!

Of course, you'd never read that in the KW Record.



Yes, you actually do see it in the KW-Record. I have seen it many times. There was even an attack from a Golden a couple years back reported.

All I can say is that there was a reason why this law came into effect. The K-W Humane Society is a wonderful place that have nothing but the welfare of their animals on their agenda.

Heather

Heather

Babs
August 9th, 2004, 04:02 PM
Heather,

First of all, please don't take my anger or frustration in this matter as personal. I know you work for the Humane Society, and I am sure it is for all the right reasons... because you love animals!

It is like I said, because of what the Humane Society stands for, I find it completely baffling as to why this organization would assist in what is a very broad and discriminating attitude and behaviour towards an animal.

I have done a great deal of research on this issue lately, and I have found some truly disgusting material. In fact not far from here, in Ingersoll, Ontario, city officials were quoted saying things like, "I hate these dogs. I think most owners of vicious dogs should be put on a leash." Ingersoll's Mayor, Mike Hennessy said "I want to see the damn things shot".

Now look at my pictures of Loki up there, and imagine what these very powerful people want to do to my dog! The sad part is, these are the kinds of people who are capable of putting laws in place... and they do!

Animals that depend on people need organizations like the Humane Society to protect them, not enforce breed-specific holocosts against them!

Let me tell you a little bit about Loki.

She was found on the side of Highway 16 outside Ottawa in the middle of winter, abandoned, emaciated and near death at the ripe young age of a few weeks. Nobody knew how she got there, but she was taken to the OHS and nurtured back to health.

When we adopted her after learning her story, in the weeks that followed she was unbelievably timid, shy, and honestly looked sad most of the time. All she did was sleep. Every bone in her body stuck out. Her head was the size of the rest of her body.

Time came for her first bath. I've never seen such fear in an animal. She shook so violently we thought something was wrong with her. In the bath she was stiff and rigid, but very trusting.

In the years that have followed, she has grown into a confident, obedient, well trained companion. She never messes in the house, asks to be let out, knows all kinds of tricks and absolutely LOVES to cuddle more than anything else.

She's been bitten by 2 other dogs, and her response is to run to a human and hide for protection. She still shakes violently when you say "bath". She knows what it is, and something about water terrifies her.

She has been babysat by family on the rare occassions where we've had to go away for a day or two. She gets depressed and licks her fur until her skin is raw. She is very attached to us, and as a result we don't leave her with anyone unless absolutely necessary because we don't like her hurting herself.

So yes, I've read all of the horror-stories about Pit Bulls. I made sure I did a lot of reading when I adopted Loki. It's amazing how much digging you have to do to find the "good" stories though.

I just don't understand ignorance. I have had countless encounters with friends and family who once learning what my dog is breed-wise, they form an instant opinion of her without having met her. Why? Because the media has told them that she is hellspawn.

It's not fair.

Goldenmom
August 9th, 2004, 04:06 PM
I completely, and absolutely agree with you, no doubt about it.

I feel very bad for you and your dog, life isn't fair sometimes when others dictate rules and regulations.

I wish I could help you...

Heather

Luba
August 9th, 2004, 04:07 PM
Ignorance is in the 'mind' of the beholder...they just keep holding on to it!!

Babs
August 9th, 2004, 04:21 PM
Heather, maybe you can help me better understand why K-W is the only city in Ontario where this legislation has passed.

As I mentioned, I have only been back here a short time, and I moved away to college/work about 15 years ago.

What happened here that made such a dramatic impact on city officials to pass this law?

Goldenmom
August 9th, 2004, 04:26 PM
I have no idea at all. I have never followed this, as it has never concerned me. I just started volunteering at the Humane Society about a year ago. I will try and find out the information for you.

Heather

Lucky Rescue
August 9th, 2004, 05:15 PM
as it has never concerned me.

BSL concerns everyone who owns a dog. No one can be sure their breed will not be banned, as this insane "Blame the breed and not the deed" madness spreads.

There are places in Europe where breeds as diverse as Boxer, GSD, GREYHOUND(classified as a "non-biting" breed), Akita, and Husky and even Sheltie are being banned!

Babs
August 9th, 2004, 08:22 PM
Thanks Heather, I appreciate it. Maybe if we find out the cause it will help shed some light.

LuckyRescue is right. I read this somewhere on the net, and boy did it make a lot of sense:

Imagine a city where there are 100 Jack Russell Terriers, and one poodle. Imagine that in one year there are 30 reported dog bites, all coming from the Jack Russells. Does this mean that a Jack Russell is automatically a "dangerous breed". and a poodle is not?

The answer is: of course not, but the media will make it look that way, and suddenly everyone will be afraid of Jack Russells.

One year ago we went down to the Humane Society in Toronto looking for a kitten. While we were there, we went to look at all the dogs as well. After all, no animal lover can go into a place full of them and not look, right?

There must have been about 25 dogs there up for adoption. I think only 5 of them were NOT pit bulls, or pit bull crosses, of various ages, colours and sizes. One of them absolutely stole my heart away, but I resisted temptation... at the time we only had living space for one dog.

It made me think... "why are all of these here?". I have to believe that one major reason is the popularity of the breed. Combine this with all of the mix possibilities, and potentially there is a very large percentage of cross mixes that have some thread of "Pit Bull" in them.

It also makes me think, "if there are this many, exactly how many are being destroyed each year?". I absolutely shudder to think how many have been put down in K-W since the ban was imposed. How many lives were lost at weeks, or months after birth? How many potentially wonderful family pets were never given a chance, just because they happened to be the wrong breed? Why is it their fault that they weren't born with curls, or fluffy fur?

Sure, pounds per inch some animals are capable of delivering more damage than others. But just because a dog can deliver more damage than a hamster, do we ban all dogs?

No, of course not. Humans decided to tame dogs, and keep them as pets a long time ago. Now that these animals are domesticated, we have a responsibility to them, just as we do to our own children.

You don't see society turn their backs on a child in a bad home situation, you instead see them taken away and placed in better care. To me, this would seem a better option for animals as well, but of course this can be a costly avenue to take.

Are we to assume then, that cities who advocate BSL would rather not spend money on humane care and relocation for mistreated animals? That they don't have the funding to properly investigate areas suspected of animal mistreatment?

There has to be more to this than bad media.

LavenderRott
August 9th, 2004, 08:40 PM
Well, I hate to say this, but from what I have seen at the Humane Societies and shelters in my area, these people have no clue about dog breeds. The last time I went to my local shelter there were 2 dogs there labeled as yellow labs that were without a doubt golden retrievers. Now you think that anyone could tell the difference between a long haired retreiver and a short haired lab.

In Denver, there is a lawsuit going on to overturn the pit bull ban. The defense was able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the people who are responsible for identifying the breeds were unable to do so.

BSL solves nothing. Personally, I think that more effort should be spent on drunk driving, which kills more people then dogs.

Babs
August 9th, 2004, 09:01 PM
I'd like to read more about that Denver suit. I'll see what I can find out on Google, but do you have any links you could share?

Goldenmom
August 9th, 2004, 09:19 PM
I want to say Babs that I am impressed with not only your writing skills, but your knowledge and determination.

You definately would be a person to educate the less knowledgeable. I am one of them, as I have only owned Labs and Goldens. Having said that, I am involved in so many pieces of the pie in my life, that I just cannot be "concerned" about everything going on around me. I rescue, foster, fundraise, volunteer, work full-time as well as own my own business at home in my "spare" time. Most of all, I need time and attention for my Family and my 3 Golden Girls. It would be wrong for me to be concerned with issues that don't involve me and that I don't know much about. This is best left to the people that it directly involves. I have enough battles of my own believe me!

Good luck and please keep us updated.

Heather

Babs
August 9th, 2004, 09:19 PM
Thanks Heather, and please let me know whatever you can find out. I am determined... not just for Loki, but for every other dog of her kind that deserves the right to life. This is a very mistaken breed of animal, and one that has been given a very undeserved bad rap.

I also found out that in Canada, we have an organization called "The National Companion Animal Coalition". This organization is working towards unified and humane legislation for a number of issues surrounding pets in Canada.

In their Paper for proposed Municipal Animal Control Bylaws, the following section addresses how BSL "should" be handled:

E. Dangerous Dogs

Addressing dangerous and potentially dangerous dogs is a challenge for municipalities. It is often difficult to determine whether a dog may be dangerous until it has bitten or attacked a person or animal. Municipalities should consider adopting legislation aimed at reducing the likelihood of harmful situations occurring.

It is important for municipalities to keep in mind that dangerous dogs are generally the result of irresponsible ownership. Dogs can become a threat if they are not properly socialized and trained, if they are mistreated or if they are deliberately bred or encouraged to attack people or animals.

First, it must be established exactly what constitutes a dangerous dog. The criteria should not be breed specific as this only discriminates against certain breeds, instead of evaluating individual dogs by their behaviour. Suggested criteria for identifying dangerous dogs include:
a dog that has killed a person or domestic animal, regardless of the circumstances
a dog that has bitten or injured a person or domestic animal. Exceptions may be made if the dog was teased, abused, assaulted or if the dog was reacting to a person trespassing on the property owned by the dog's owner
a dog that has shown the disposition or tendency to be threatening or aggressive an attack trained dog
Municipalities should require that dangerous dogs either be euthanised in the interests of public safety, or that their owners meet specific requirements for the humane care of such dogs, that will ensure public safety. Penalties should be established for owners who do not comply with the requirements.

Dangerous dogs should be licenced and spayed or neutered as this may reduce aggressive tendencies and will prevent the owners from profiting from the sale of offspring that are also likely to be dangerous. These dogs should be muzzled and leashed when off the owner's property and strictly confined when on the owner's property. If an owner is unwilling or unable to meet these requirements, euthanasia should be imposed.

Now let's look at Kitchener's bylaw:

Prohibited Dog By-Law
Did you know that Pit Bulls and Pit Bull Crosses are PROHIBITED within the City of Kitchener unless they were resident within the municipality prior to April 7, 1997 and were designated as restricted dogs by the Poundkeeper?

What is a Pit Bull?
A Pit Bull dog is defined as a dog of any age identifiable by the Humane Society as any one of the following breeds or mixed breeds:

-Pit Bull Terrier;
-American Pit Bull Terrier;
-Pit Bull;
-Staffordshire Bull Terrier;
(unless registered with the American or Canadian Kennel Club)
-American Staffordshire Terrier;
(unless registered with the American or Canadian Kennel Club)

Enforcement
The Kitchener-Waterloo & North Waterloo Humane Society is responsible for enforcing the City's By-law and should be contacted at (519) 745-5615 for information involving:

-determination of whether a dog is considered a "Pit Bull" under the By-law;
-reporting of any dogs believed to be Pit Bulls.

Consequences
Any prohibited Pit Bull in the City is to be removed from the City or delivered to the Humane Society for humane euthanasia.

An Owner of a Pit Bull who fails to remove the dog from the City of Kitchener may be prosecuted. The maximum fine under the By-law is $5,000.00.

Copies of the by-Law
Please contact the City Clerk's Division at (519) 741-2286 to obtain a copy of those portions of the Dog By-Law relating to Pit Bulls.

Further Information
Please contact the Kitchener-Waterloo & North Waterloo Humane Society for further information at (519) 745-5615.

Babs
August 9th, 2004, 09:35 PM
What concerns me most about Kitchener's Bylaw is the following 3 points:

1) "A Pit Bull dog is defined as a dog of any age identifiable by the Humane Society as any one of the following breeds or mixed breeds..."

We've already established how accurate some HS officials have been at correctly identifying breeds, particularly cross breeds.

2) Any prohibited Pit Bull in the City is to be removed from the City or delivered to the Humane Society for humane euthanasia.

Since when is euthanasia humane, other than to ease the suffering of something that is in a great deal of pain?

3) The Kitchener-Waterloo & North Waterloo Humane Society is responsible for enforcing the City's By-law and should be contacted at (519) 745-5615 for information involving:

-determination of whether a dog is considered a "Pit Bull" under the By-law;
-reporting of any dogs believed to be Pit Bulls.

This last one is what originally sparked my fear. It is also when I learned about our Bylaw. As I mentioned, we have a house here in a quiet neighbourhood... a fixerupper. I've spent many hours this year on the landscaping around our house. Often times, I will have Loki outside with me, tethered on the yard. Mostly she loves to bask in the sun, and barely moves while I weed away.

While she's lying down, her tether is practically invisible, especially in the newly planted grass which seems to be growing as though it's on steroids! It get's lost in the grass. People will walk by and she just lies there watching, unmoving. Unlike most dogs, she won't chase or bark at people, she's quite socialized and seeing new faces barely phases her.

An old woman walked by my house as I was weeding away, and scowled at me. Just as she passed our house, she yelled back at me, "You should get that THING on a leash!" Of course she was on a leash, maybe the woman didn't have her glasses on!

But I do know there is an aged woman in the neighbourhood who likes to complain about just about anything to the police. From kids playing ball on the street, to someone parking in the front of their house, she seems to be the neighbourhood complainer. My concern was that this woman was the same woman. So far no problems, but it did make me think.

According to our bylaw, if a woman like this one was to make any report, it wouldn't be long before we had red flashing lights in front of our house, I'm sure.

Needless to say, Loki has to stay inside now when I do my outdoor chores. It's really a shame too, because I see her sitting at the screen door, whining to come out... but I just can't risk it.

A license might protect her, but it might not as well.

Goldenmom
August 9th, 2004, 09:36 PM
A couple websites for you to have a look at.

http://www.cbc.ca/consumers/market/files/health/dangerousdogs/bylaws.html

http://www.cbc.ca/consumers/market/files/health/dangerousdogs/



Go right to the bottom also, as there is more links.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.readersdigest.ca/mag/2001/01/dogs.html

This website explains why K-W implemented the ban.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.lutz.nb.ca/comm/general/gen74.htm

--------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.goodpooch.com/BSL/cdnbsl.htm

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.ontla.on.ca/hansard/committee_debates/36_parl/session1/regsbils/t015.htm


Ok, thats it for me. I listed these in case you have never seen them. I have no opinion on any of them :p

Babs
August 9th, 2004, 09:39 PM
Excellent, Thanks Heather :)

Babs
August 9th, 2004, 09:54 PM
Only on the second one, but wow! Reporting at it's finest? The CBC actually published this unfactual piece of work?

http://www.cbc.ca/consumers/market/files/health/dangerousdogs/

I'll have to do more investigation on the particulars of the attacks, but there was one glaringly obvious statement that was entirely not based on fact:

The breed most often targeted for outright bans is the pitbull. It was originally bred to fight other dogs. The pitbull has powerful jaws that lock when they clamp down on humans. The injuries can be particularly brutal.

Didn't this reporter do any of his homework? Here's the truth, this factual information specifically extracted from Pit Bull Fact vs. Legend (http://www.austinlostpets.com/kidskorner/2October/pitbull.htm):

Is it true that Pit Bulls can lock their jaw?
The infamous locking jaw is a myth. The American Pit Bull Terrier and related breeds are physiologically no different from any other breed of dog. All dogs are from the same species and none have locking jaws. Dr. I Lehr Brisbin of the University of Georgia states, "To the best of our knowledge, there are no published scientific studies that would allow any meaningful comparison to be made of the biting power of various breeds of dogs. There are, moreover, compelling technical reasons why such data describing biting power in terms of 'pounds per square inch' can never be collected in a meaningful way. All figures describing biting power in such terms can be traced to either unfounded rumor or, in some cases, to newspaper articles with no foundation in factual data." Furthermore, Dr. Brisbin states, "The few studies which have been conducted of the structure of the skulls, mandibles and teeth of pit bulls show that, in proportion to their size, their jaw structure and thus its inferred functional morphology, is no different than that of any breed of dog. There is absolutely no evidence for the existence of any kind of 'locking mechanism' unique to the structure of the jaw and/or teeth of the American Pit Bull Terrier."

It is articles just like this one that spread fear and terror. Fear and terror that leads to witch hunts. Humans need something to blame, and sadly... they rarely look to themselves first.

LavenderRott
August 10th, 2004, 07:02 AM
I'd like to read more about that Denver suit. I'll see what I can find out on Google, but do you have any links you could share?

I haven't tried to google it yet, but here is the information that I have:

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 22:10:40 -0700 Subject: YES!! Denver...(forwarded)
Subject: YES!! Denver...(forwarded)

In Denver today ACF's attorney from the law firm of Walter Gerash devastated the Denver City Attorney Kory Nelson by disqualifying all 5 of Denvers experts.

The Denver Muni Court yesterday denied us an evidence hearing challenging the constitutionality of the Denver Pit Bull law stating some odd legal argument. Today the trial on the Denver Pit Bull law for the criminal charges for owning a Pit Bull took place. Robert Wright pleaded no contest and was convicted to preserve our appeal. Denver had brought 5 experts to testify about Pit Bulls and it was decided to take Howard Margolius to trial.

One at a time ACF's attorney badgered each expert ranging from Denver animal control officers to a Veterinarian over identification of Pit Bulls. The judge disquailified every one for not being able to identify what an American Pit Bull Terrier is. Some said they to a certian percent they could identify what a Pit Bull was but the judge said it had to be beyond a reasonable doubt. What this does for the dog fancy is preserve on the record that the Denver Animal Officers and the experts they have been using can not identify what a Pit Bull is and for many years most likely have been picking up and killing off alot of different dog breeds. This was a major blow to the city of Denver and to breed specific legislation and how hard it is to identify dog breeds.

ACF will be appealing Robert Wrights case to the District Court on grounds that our constitutional rights to an evidence hearing have been violated. Denver is doing everything to shut us down and today they just lost a very important part of their defense.

Babs
August 10th, 2004, 09:54 AM
Denver Animal Officers and the experts they have been using can not identify what a Pit Bull is and for many years most likely have been picking up and killing off alot of different dog breeds

Heather, do you know if there is any way to obtain a statistical report of dogs euthanized in Kitchener since this law was passed. Specifically, dogs destroyed believed to be Pit Bulls?

I haven't been able to find anything on the Net, but that doesn't surprise me.

sammiec
August 10th, 2004, 09:58 AM
Thank you for all your efforts Babs! If there is anything that I can do to help, please let me know. I am more than willing to assist you in your fight against BSL!!

Have you ahd any luck with Ottawa HS?

mastifflover
August 10th, 2004, 10:06 AM
Babs, I must commend you on your tenacity, you go girl. You are going about this in all the right ways gathering all the info you can and getting all the statistics. Have you talked to the people at Pit Crew Rescue they might be able to help you with more information. I admire what you are doing for a breed you love,that unfortunately has gotten a bad rap that it really does not deserve.

Goldenmom
August 10th, 2004, 10:38 AM
I know of no place that you can get that information. I really don't think that would be public knowledge.

Sorry

Heather

Babs
August 10th, 2004, 01:53 PM
I don't think it would be either Heather.

Sam, I've been trying to get a live voice at Ottawa HS, all I keep getting is an answering machine.

Mastiff, do you have a website for Pit Crew Rescue? I've seen many on the Internet but would like to know which one you specifically mean?

Also, for anyone in this forum who is trying to fight the issue taking place on August 17th in Windsor, I've made this poster for you:

Printable anti-BSL Poster (http://www.babayaaga.com/images/bslposter.pdf)

Here's what it looks like
http://www.babayaaga.com/images/bslposter.jpg

mastifflover
August 10th, 2004, 02:09 PM
Your poster is great really gets the point across. Wishing you luck.
www.pitbulldogs.org
This is pit crews home page they are located in London, Ontario.

sammiec
August 10th, 2004, 02:10 PM
Oooo Babs! That poster is so sad!! You can use these pics of my little girl if you like!!!


PitCrew Rescue is based out of Tillsonburg ON. You can contact them by email. They have LOTS going on right now so their response could possibly be VERY slow!! Here's their website (http://www.pitbulldogs.org/)

added: sorry mastiff, I didn't see your response before I posted :o :D

mastifflover
August 10th, 2004, 02:19 PM
What a cutie Briggs is. No problem I think we are all trying to get Babs as much info as possible. Lets just ban the a**holes that have gotten this breed such a bad rap. Not the dogs.

Babs
August 10th, 2004, 02:34 PM
those are fantastic! I'll make another version with Briggs :)

chico2
August 10th, 2004, 04:33 PM
Aw guys,that's so sad....how can anyone ban a living,breathing animal.I don't know what this world is coming to :mad:
Pittcrew in Tillsonburg is not that far away from K-W,they might even have had to take some of the banned animals.
What we need is bigger fines and jail-time to idiots who make these poor dogs aggressive and dangerous,whether they are Pitts or not.
.

Cactus Flower
August 10th, 2004, 07:05 PM
Ok this thread has me biting my nails!

Questions: What is "BSL" ? Sorry if that's a silly one, but I've no idea what it means.

Also, are you sure you want to put a picture of your sweet pup on that poster, when you are trying to give the impression that she is a boxer mix rather than a pit mix?

The poster literally- LITERALLY- brought tears to my eyes, by the way.

This is so sad.

Luba
August 10th, 2004, 07:12 PM
Sam thats nice you offered Briggs pictures :D you're a doll

Babs
August 10th, 2004, 07:17 PM
I have a contingency plan lined up if Loki gets discriminated against. We have friends in "legal" places who would take care of her... but we'd be immediately moving, sale or no sale of this house. I'll rent it out if I have to.

But this fear certainly has me thinking, and I'm trying to figure out how to get an appeal process together for Kitchener.

In a simple description, BSL (Breed Specific Legislation) is when a community, (city, province/state, or country) imposes laws that place ownership restrictions on certain breeds. In extreme cases, ownership is absolutely not permitted and dogs must either be removed or destroyed.

In most cases, what this means is that hundreds of animals determined to be of that breed type end up destroyed... many within weeks of being born. Since breed type, particularly in mixes is very hard to determine, many potentially wonderful family pets are being destroyed each day... thousands within only a year.

BSL punishes the life of an innocent animal and the families who love them, and does nothing to prevent irresponsible or cruel ownership of animals... the true problem.

Today, BSL consideration by communities worldwide is growing in popularity as a way to put a stopper on the fear of dogs, specifically certain breeds. The senseless murder has to stop. Pet owners need stricter laws in order to own animals, and harsher penalties for the mistreatment of animals.

Here's the version with Sam's puppy, (which btw THANKS Sam, for obvious reasons it will be the one I use here in Kitchener).



Printable PDF version (http://www.babayaaga.com/images/bslposter-gen1.pdf)
http://www.babayaaga.com/images/bslposter-gen1.jpg

Cactus Flower
August 10th, 2004, 07:34 PM
Thank you. I knew about the bans, I just didn't know what that acronym was lol.