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Two Dogs Same Litter - HELP!!!

New Dog Owner
April 9th, 2009, 11:58 AM
Me and my fiance just got two pups from the same litter. When we got them they were 5 weeks old, now they are going on 7 weeks. We got them early because the mom stopped feeding them. Thanfully the owner was able to get them off of milk and got them on watered down dry food. Originally we were only going to get 1, but the person told us that she was going to have to send the other 1 to the pound because she couldn't find him a home. So we ended up with two males. They are german shepard and old english sheep dog mixes.

We currently have two crates, a decent backyard and a basement with a section blocked off for them. We started the potty training right away (still working on it) and I also started walking them in the morning and in the evening. At first they didn't like the leash at all, but now they accept it, but the walks are not going good. I try walking them together and one will stop and not move, then when he starts to walk the other stops and will not move, then what ends up happening is they start play fighting. I started getting concerned so I started looking at how to walk two dogs together and I was not happy with the results. Everyplace I look everyone keeps saying that we need to get rid of one of them because it's impossible to raise them together due to their pack nature and if we do keep them that we can never leave them alone together. I find this hard to believe, so I need some help.

One thing I keep reading is to seperate them, right now we do keep them in the same crate at night (changing today), we do have them in the same basement pen (changing today), they walk together, they eat together, basically they do everything together. So we are going to work on doing things seperatley starting today. But my question is, what else can I do so we don't run into problems later? How can I get them to walk together? And above all how long do I need to keep them seperated? Our intention was to have two dogs, where we are the leader of the pack, where they get along and we can walk all together without any issues.

From what I'm reading, it's impossible, but someone out there must know how to do this. I see people like the Dog Whisper who has over 20 dogs in his open backyard together all the time and he doesn't have problems...so any help would be appreciated, since they are pups I think we can make any changes now vs. waiting until there is a bigger issue that is harder to break.

luckypenny
April 9th, 2009, 12:10 PM
Oh for goodness sake, I'm so sorry you got such shoddy advice :grouphug:....

Even if their mother was unable to feed them, the litter should have stayed with her until the ver minimum of 8 weeks. But you can't change that now. Please keep them together, crate and all. At 7 weeks, they still very much need each other for comfort and for learning very important lessons (bite inhibition for one) during this crucial learning stage in their lives. You can spend some one on one time with them, but please, don't separate them for long periods of time.

7 weeks is way too young to expect them to be walking nicely together on leash. Let them play safely in your yard and basement for at least until they are properly immunized. You may even want to consider puppy classes then, to get a better idea on how to reponsibly raise them and to continue in their socialization of other dogs and people.

There are several other members here who have pups from the same litter. It's not the end of the world and in your case, because of them being removed so young, it's a blessing.

BenMax
April 9th, 2009, 12:12 PM
Hi New Dog Owner and welcome to the forum.

Firstly thank you for saving these dogs. They are very very young and this is why you are having these little problems.

Secondly having the two is actually better for them than having the one. Whoever told you this is impossible to manage knows very little so keep them both. They will ensure that equally they are socialized well. One will be more dominenant than the other and that is really ok. They understand eac hothers language and are taking their roles in teaching one another which minimizes a little of the workload for you. At the same time, you must take the role of the mother to ensure that they understand good canine behaviour. The best advice I have in regards to how to assume this role is to contact a behaviouralist and read about it as well. This will teach you and give you the understandings around helping them understand what is acceptable and what is not.

For the walking, this is challenging with pups whether one or two. Keep the walk brisk and quick. Encourage the walk in an upbeat tone with clapping and the 'good boys' in a higher, energetic tone. Keep moving. If one stops encourage alittle play and he will come.

I cannot comment really on keeping them separated in the crate at this moment. Personally, they need each other for warmth and security so I would not do it right now. By 12 weeks, I would however but close enough to see one another.

Ensure that your basement has windows and light....very important!!!

babymomma
April 9th, 2009, 12:13 PM
Welcome to the forum! :D

First of all, It is 100 % Possible to have the 2 dogs together.. I would like to know who told you this, and give them a slap on the wrist for Giving people wrong information:frustrated: lol..

Um, All i can say right now is to get the cesar millan Mentality Out of your head!

You dont need to be "Pack leader" or what ever.. Just have rules and boundaries..

BenMax
April 9th, 2009, 12:17 PM
Ha LP - you beat me to it this time!:thumbs up:laughing:

As for a Caeser Milan mentality or otherwise, gravitate to what works for you. If Caeser or however else you like and makes sense to you, then do what feels right and comfortable. The best advice however is to find someone really good that you trust that will help you understand the behaviours of your dogs as individuals.

Mat&Murph
April 9th, 2009, 12:23 PM
I have 2 males from the same litter. I ahve had the same problems with fighting on leash but only play fighting. Thats normal but you will have to work on them not doing it. It will get better theolder they so get. They are very young right now so don't panic yet. :grouphug: Find a trainer to help guide you. Good advice from the above

ancientgirl
April 9th, 2009, 12:24 PM
Welcome to the forum. I'm guessing whoever told you to get rid of one, has little experience raising two dogs. They may have tried, failed and believe it just can't be done.

I'm a cat person myself, so I can't really give you any advice. I can only suggest you listen to what the other owners here have to say. You will notice most of them are living in not only multiple dog households, but multiple species households. :laughing:

Bailey_
April 9th, 2009, 12:48 PM
Congrats on your puppies!

As has been already mentioned, two puppies are certainly not a bad thing and I do NOT reccomend seperating them or giving one up at this time. It's not impossible for you to train them, and it certainly is not impossible to raise two dogs. In fact, your two boys will grow together and have such a great bond - they'll keep one another company.


Your puppies are stopping on their leashes because they're still learning HOW to walk on a leash, outside, away from your home and their 'safe zone'. Like BenMax said, making the walks fun and high energy will encourage them to move forward, but don't get discouraged when they stop in mid-stride. That's normal puppy behavior, a matter of the puppy trying to 'control' his environment; and don't forget, they're still learning that YOU are the boss. By stopping, they are testing their boundaries - putting on the brakes and telling you that they don't want to go where you've asked them too.

It's important that you move through that, instead of allowing the puppy to sit there. Once your puppy has walked ahead for you, that would be a good time to turn around and go home. Never end the walk on a bad note, when your pup has stopped walking; but make these initial on-leash walks shorter (5-10 minutes) and gradually make them longer as they get older.
Do you have someone that can help you walk them right now? I ask because it might be easier during these inital stages, in order to prevent them from play-fighting while you're walking them. And remember - the reason they're play-fighting is because they've been given the opportunity. They're bored with whatever you're doing, and so they've looked to one another for entertainment, which is what pups are all about. Keep the pace brisk and call their names as you go - I like to 'WoooHoo!!" occasionally, which usually makes me look crazy but the doggies love it when you get loud and exciting. :thumbs up

LavenderRott
April 9th, 2009, 12:52 PM
It isn't that they can't be together - it is that they must be seperated to interact with YOU for portions of the day. If you keep them together constantly, they will bond to each other and being part of your pack will be secondary. Kind of the opposite of what most people want.

Also, don't assume that since they play nicely together that they are socialized and will play nicely with other dogs. They are still going to need to be socialized after they get all of their shots.

As for walking nicely on a leash - don't expect that to happen for weeks!! These are just babies and whether they are walking alone or together - there is waaayyyyyyy too much to explore to think about walking nicely yet.

BenMax
April 9th, 2009, 01:04 PM
It isn't that they can't be together - it is that they must be seperated to interact with YOU for portions of the day. If you keep them together constantly, they will bond to each other and being part of your pack will be secondary. Kind of the opposite of what most people want.

Also, don't assume that since they play nicely together that they are socialized and will play nicely with other dogs. They are still going to need to be socialized after they get all of their shots.

As for walking nicely on a leash - don't expect that to happen for weeks!! These are just babies and whether they are walking alone or together - there is waaayyyyyyy too much to explore to think about walking nicely yet.

Very good points.

TeriM
April 9th, 2009, 11:48 PM
Welcome to pets.ca :). I agree with the advice from the others and would not worry to much about seperating them at this age. Once they hit three months then I would work on seperating them a lot more and work each dog independantly. Seven weeks is very young for puppies and definately to young to worry about good leash walking techniques. Focus more on playing and bonding with them, toilet training etc. Big dogs "usually" potty train easily but don't expect much for another month or so and true reliability will be much longer.

I like this blog http://the-sunshinegirl.blogspot.com/. The owner raised to labrador litter mates and offers some good advice.

I would also definately recommend this website http://www.dogstardaily.com/ especially the puppy advice from Dr. Ian Dunbar who is regarded as one of the "pioneers" of positive puppy training techniques.

Good luck and we'd love to see pics when you get a spare moment :D.

Sylvie
April 10th, 2009, 12:07 AM
First welcome to the forum. Wow, you sure got some great advice.:thumbs up

I just want to say that definately you should take the dogs to obedience classes. They will learn to socialize with other dogs. It is true they will have their own pack if you don't spend time alone with each dog. You are going to be busy with these little fellows. Please post pictures, if you have any spare time :laughing:

lUvMyLaB<3
April 11th, 2009, 05:11 PM
yes I agree, I don't know who gave you the advice but it is not good advice.

All that I can add is that please don't expect to see results. Don't be dissapointed when the walks don't go well, really they are too young for leashes and I would not use a collar on their neck for a walk. They are young enough that several good romps outside is better than trying a walk at this point. Don't be discouraged that you are not seeing results. They are babies and should still be with their mother and litter mates. It is too bad that many people think that when a mother starts weaning her pups from milk that her job is over, that is very untrue. Good luck. Measure progress in weeks not each day, Soon they will be big behaved dogs, but it is a long road to get there.

Bailey_
April 11th, 2009, 08:05 PM
yes I agree, I don't know who gave you the advice but it is not good advice.

All that I can add is that please don't expect to see results. Don't be dissapointed when the walks don't go well, really they are too young for leashes and I would not use a collar on their neck for a walk. They are young enough that several good romps outside is better than trying a walk at this point. Don't be discouraged that you are not seeing results. They are babies and should still be with their mother and litter mates. It is too bad that many people think that when a mother starts weaning her pups from milk that her job is over, that is very untrue. Good luck. Measure progress in weeks not each day, Soon they will be big behaved dogs, but it is a long road to get there.

I think that the OP should still certainly be able to see results with her puppies. Dogs learn quickly, even pups, and it's not hard to teach them how to walk properly on a leash with consistancy and patience and encouragement.

I also don't believe that a harness (halter) is a good training tool for puppies as it encourages pulling. A SAFE training collar is absolutley fine for a young puppy, when sized properly.

lUvMyLaB<3
April 11th, 2009, 08:22 PM
I am sorry maybe you missunderstood. In her post she said that when she took them for a walk she was discouraged with the results. What I am saying is that no, they are not going to learn in just a few walks.. It will take time, as with potty training. I disagree with you, because what I said is correct. potty training, and leash training will take more than a day.

And I do not agree with you that a 7 week old puppy should have a collar right away. No a harness does not encourage pulling. There are many breeds that should not wear collars and that does not mean you have to live with pulling. At 7 weeks, they will be pulling, and being pulled, and I don't think a collar is the best choice. That is my opinion, you have yours. Does not make mine wrong, but thanks.

Gail P
April 11th, 2009, 11:19 PM
Raising siblings can be double trouble, but it can also be twice the fun. Where one may find something to chew on, two will play tug with it and rip it to shreds. But they will make up for it with all their cute cuddliness and entertaining antics. I'm speaking with the voice of experience here, I've raised siblings several times over (not a breeder, have never had a litter and all my dogs are spayed/neutered - I just seem to keep adopting them in two's :rolleyes:) Years ago I raised 2 collie half-sisters that were just days apart in age, then later brother/sister great danes and when they were just 6 months also got the collie that I now still have (talk about a triple threat :eek: :laughing: More recently I've raised a pup or multiple pups every year for the past 4 years - Lightning (BC/lab), Flash & Thunder (mixbreed rescue pups), Rain & Storm (BC), Flurry (BC) and Dru (BC)

Whenever I'm raising 2 together I always start them off sharing a crate, until they get big enough to need more space and then they each have their own crate (or even if they could still fit together I make sure they have separate sleeping quarters by the time they go for their spay/neuter surgeries).

Potty training can be a bit more difficult than with one pup, the easiest thing when they're tiny seems to be be to just scoop them up, one under each arm and carry them out. Otherwise while you try to get one out the door the other one is having an accident. Later, when they're bigger and used to following you better you should be able to just say something like "let's go outside" and encourage them to both follow you out the door.

My personal situation is such that I don't need to do any leash walking so I don't start working on that right away. I have a small farm and a fenced backyard with lots of space. I tend to work on getting the pups to follow me and work on their recall without leashes, just by making it fun and making them want to stick with me. I want them to grow up knowing how to be off leash around the farm with me when I'm out doing chores etc. , plus with the work some of them now do as goose dogs they have to be able to work off leash in public. Having older dogs that already stick close to me does help I'm sure, pups always want to stay with me and the pack. I do of course teach them to wear a collar and leash at some point, but when I introduce the leash I do it with one pup at a time and at first I just take the pup out exploring around a bit and I follow them, keeping the leash loose. When it's loose they usually ignore it and I start to be the one to choose where we go and since I've already worked on having the pups follow me off leash there are generally very few conflicts. In your situation, you could work with each pup one-on-one for leash training, or since there is both yourself and your fiance you could each take a pup (but keep enough space between you that the pups can't be tangling up and playing with each other when on leash). It would be helpful if you teach the pups to focus on their handler rather than on each other. At this stage treats can be your best friend. :dog: Lots of people teach their dog the command "watch me", rewarding the dog for looking up and waiting for what command will come next. With the breeds in your pups they should be intelligent dogs that are eager to please.

Ask 10 people the same questions and you'll probably get at least 10 different responses, but this is a little of what I've learned from raising multiple puppies. Oh yeah, besides letting them share one crate I also let them do pretty much everything else together as well, except if I'm working on something very specific (i.e. one-on-one training for something, whether it be agility, sheep herding or just some basic stuff like sit, down etc. though my whole pack will calmly sit in a circle around me when they know it's time for treats and everyone politely waits their turn) All this "togetherness" has never given rise to any problems for me, I currently have 8 dogs that are all able to live together and share the same space both in the house and out in the yard. The only one that gets separated at all is the youngest, who at not quite 9 months has not yet graduated out of his crate to having the privilege of full run of the house if I'm not home. The other 7 can be safely left loose in the house.

Bailey_
April 12th, 2009, 12:08 AM
I am sorry maybe you missunderstood. In her post she said that when she took them for a walk she was discouraged with the results. What I am saying is that no, they are not going to learn in just a few walks.. It will take time, as with potty training. I disagree with you, because what I said is correct. potty training, and leash training will take more than a day.

And I do not agree with you that a 7 week old puppy should have a collar right away. No a harness does not encourage pulling. There are many breeds that should not wear collars and that does not mean you have to live with pulling. At 7 weeks, they will be pulling, and being pulled, and I don't think a collar is the best choice. That is my opinion, you have yours. Does not make mine wrong, but thanks.

I absolutley agree with you - leash training DOES take more than just a day. But puppies are incredibly smart and learn quickly - that's all I'm saying. With each walk, and lots of encouragement for the puppies during these sessions, the OP should be able to see results as they grow; and hopefully some of the above suggestions from everyone will help.

I don't want to get off topic here, but I just wanted to clear up something you've said. Harnesses absolutley DO encourage pulling - especially from working breeds. You can read more about it here: http://www.buzzle.com/articles/discover-different-dog-training-equipment-harnesses-halters-and-collars.html. This is because the dog has a natural instinct known as 'opposition reflex', and when the traditional harness that you buy in your average petstore is put on your dog - they will lean into it.
I never reccomend anyone putting a harness on a puppy (unless you want your dog pulling sleds, etc), though it's a common conception in society today. From 8 weeks I will put a safe martingale training collar (fit to size) on any of my pups. This does not mean to say I think that everyone should start their puppy off wearing a collar at 8 weeks, but I would rather see a puppy go off-leash than with a harness on.

I'm curious as to what dog breeds you are referring to when you said they can't wear collars? I don't think I've heard this before...

Gail P
April 12th, 2009, 09:41 AM
I don't want to get off topic here, but I just wanted to clear up something you've said. Harnesses absolutley DO encourage pulling - especially from working breeds.

Not necessarily true, that is too broad of a blanket statement. There are many different styles of harnesses designed for a wide variety of purposes. Sledding, carting, tracking, safety/seat belt type harnesses, skijoring, and no-pull harnesses specially designed to decrease pulling.

My own dogs are sled dogs so I do want them to pull and they know that when they wear their harnesses it means work, but when walking on leash with just the collar to not pull. However, a friend of mine was having a heck of a time with her dog (not a sled dog btw) pulling so much with her collar that she was constantly choking herself. A no-pull harness works great on that dog, which no kidding was pulling so much in the collar that I'm surprised she didn't injure herself.

Something I forgot to mention in my earlier post. Regarding multiple dogs and collars, be careful! When we had the danes we had a scary incident where the dogs became entangled in each others collars while wrestling. They were both wearing properly fitted martingale collars, the flat nylon type with the chain section. One dog got her lower jaw under the other dogs collar and then one of them must have turned or twisted so that his collar was wrapped in a twist tight around her jaw and stuck behind her canine teeth. She got scared and it probably hurt and she was screaming, he was being choked, it was awful. All I can say is it's lucky we were home at the time and we were able to basically sit on the dogs (huge dogs) and cut the collar off him. After that I have never left a collar on my dogs for any reason. I only put them on if we're going out somewhere on leash where they need it. With multiple dogs that are always wrestling and rough housing it's too big of a risk to me to leave collars on.

lUvMyLaB<3
April 12th, 2009, 02:52 PM
actually Bailey if you would like to search we had a discussion on it not too long ago..

One breed for sure is the Shih tzu, some can be fine with a collar, especially if they are they one applying the force. But if they are ever to be pulled by someone it can actually do damage. The same goes for other very small, brachiosephalic dogs.

I did not ever say that she would not see imporvement, i said do not get discouraged. And I said do not measure progress by the day, I think we are saying the same thing, but thanks all the same.

I don't really care what your opinions are. If you disagree GREAT, I for one would not put a collar and leash on a 7 week old puppy to actually go for a walk where pulling would be involved. you might. For training, and getting them acustomed, yes that I agree to do.

I cannot say I have ever had my opinion ripped apart on this site before. You are free to express your opinions but I don't see the need in picking someone elses opnion apart. You will never convince me that harnesses are not good EVER, so you can stop now. I do not come here to argue with anyone, nor have I ever seen this before so I am done. Pick my opinion apart I don't care but I am not going to defend my opinion anymore. thanks.

Bailey_
April 12th, 2009, 11:39 PM
Gail, very true. Thanks for clearing that up. I thought I mentioned in that comment that I was referring to the traditional harness that you find in your petstore - the one that many people purchase off the shelf for their dog - but I probably didn't. :laughing: You're very correct however - there are a variety of harnesses that are built differently than the average harness and okay to use on a working breed, more inclined to pull. Thanks for clearing that up.

luvmylab, I'm really sorry you feel like I'm ripping apart your statements - that's absolutley not my intention. I just felt like some of the things you were saying could be taken the wrong way; and if someone felt like something I said was inncorrect or could be taken the wrong way, I would want them to correct me (just like Gail did above in this same thread).

I'm not here to argue with you, or change your views. One of the things I love about this forum is the differing views from all the owners and the fact that we have the opportunity to voice our opinions. :) If mine doesn't jive with yours, that doesn't mean I'm trying to attack you or change your mind. The goal here for everyone is to give the OP a wide variety of advice and experience. It's totally not personal, sorry if you took it that way.

You will never convince me that harnesses are not good EVER

Again, sorry you felt like that's what I was saying. I believe what I actually said was that I would not put a harness on a PUPPY, if you reread my comment.
Interesting about the Shih Tzu. I've actually never heard of that particular breed being threatened by wearing a collar, so that's good to know. (Could you reccomend any links or websites or books that I could look this information up? I googled this, but can't find it. :( )

**Edit** Sorry, nevermind, I'll just search the thread you mentioned. Thx! :)

lUvMyLaB<3
April 13th, 2009, 10:24 AM
the thread was about someone that had a puppy, and didn't like that her trainer wanted her to use a kind of collar, as was told by the trainer the same as you think that a harness will let the dog pull... however that is something I totally disagree with. A dog, especially a puppy can be trained to walk nicely with anything on. If you are relying on equipment to make your dog not pull then your dog is not really being trained. A dog should be taught to walk nice no matter what equipment it has on.

The thing is with dogs with sensitive trachea's they can usually pull and know how much force they can use. However the person doesn't so when they pull on the dog or very young puppy, to keep it from danger , like an aggressive dog, they can do damage.

again this is just imo.. I have a shih tzu lhasa and I would have NEVER trained him with a collar at 7 weeks, especially a martingale or choker. But my lab had a martingale from a young age.

This I am saying because at 7 weeks, the pup should still be with mom and littermates. It is a time for bonding and play. You can start training yes. But the pup is still too young to be out socializing, the wont be able to have all their shots yet. at 12-16 weeks, you can start going nuts, especially with a large puppy. But at that age I would not be walking around other dogs and puppies.

again it is my opinion, doesn't matter how many links you have to show that others have that same opinion... You can teach a pup to walk nice with a harness, not true that they are going to pull you. I always only use a harness on my little dog and he does not pull, because he was rewarded for staying close. Relying on a collar and saying that the dog will pull if in a harness does not sound like training imo...

Bailey_
April 13th, 2009, 11:33 AM
If you are relying on equipment to make your dog not pull then your dog is not really being trained. A dog should be taught to walk nice no matter what equipment it has on.


I agree with this. And unfortunatley, I think you've been missing the point I've been trying to make...
I won't put your traditional harness on a puppy as I believe that when they are so young and impressionable, these types of harness can hinder progress. I agree that a dog should be able to walk no matter what, but I'm not going to confuse matters by using a tool that has been proven to encourage or inhibit pulling by many different types of breeds and dogs. This is not something I'm just saying, or making up, but there is a lot of information out there against this type of harness, you can't ignore it.

http://www.ontariospca.ca/2-behavtips-dog7.shtml
This was from the Ontario SPCA website regarding these traditional harnesses I'm referring to:
Flat harnesses
Flat harnesses fit around the chest of your dog, with the leash attachment usually at the spine. They are sometimes used for small delicate dogs instead of attaching the leash to a collar, and are often used for dogs pulling loads (sleds, carts). This tool tends to encourage pulling.

That's all I am saying here, and I thought it was a very important point to share with the OP in this situation.


Relying on a collar and saying that the dog will pull if in a harness does not sound like training imo...

I don't think anyone should rely on a collar, which again, was never my point. I did say that I would rather see a puppy go off-leash for the first few weeks of it's life, compared to someone putting a harness on a puppy because they have been told or believe that it is 'safer'.

I'm glad that you have found something that works for you luvmylabs, and I'm looking forward to hearing what the OP has also found to work for their two puppies.

doesn't matter how many links you have to show that others have that same opinion

To me it does matter. :) As a trainer I want to have as much information provided to me on a certain subject if I have been doing things differently - for the benefit of my clients and their dogs. If you have something to share with me concerning this situation it would be appreciated, but that's all I was getting at.

lUvMyLaB<3
April 13th, 2009, 12:00 PM
the harness I use is a step in harness. It has no contact with the chest. there are 2 leg holes, and a strap that is on the belly between the legs. you then bring the 2 sides up on top and clip the leash to hold it. It is very different from a pulling harness.

So if someone came to you with a young puppy for training, and did not like to use a training collar but wanted to use a harness you would tell them different? I agree that pups are impressionable... but they can learn to walk nice without using a collar. Why would a 7 week old puppy not pull so hard with their neck as with a harness? And a training collar is meant to get tighter as they pull, so it is a negative response to pulling, do you not think this could harm a VERY young pup, or small delicate dog?

Perhaps we are saying the same thing I don't know.. but I know I said going outside for several romps a day off leash would be better than doing a walk with collar and leash at this point.

The thing is with dog training, no one, and no link is really right. There are many ways to do it, and many wont work for someone else. If someone chooses a harness it is not right to tell them they are doing something wrong, and will create problems for themselves. Any positive training should be able to train any dog without relying on equipment.

lUvMyLaB<3
April 13th, 2009, 12:03 PM
look at this link I found on google!

http://pets.ca/blog/?p=97

lUvMyLaB<3
April 13th, 2009, 12:04 PM
here is the thread I am talking about.

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=60426

lUvMyLaB<3
April 13th, 2009, 12:12 PM
you should read it in case you will be training cavaliers or yorkies at some point. There were a few people that really knew what they are talking about. She tells about the neurological damage that can happen to some breeds. shih tzu's will often snort if they are pulling into a collar. I wouldn't like to see a 7 week old puppy straining on a collar either at that young tender age. But again I think at that age several romps in the yard off leash are better than a walk. Without shots who knows what could happen..

Bailey_
April 13th, 2009, 12:13 PM
Thanks for that link luvmylabs! :thumbs up I think there was a great point made there.

Just remember that each dog’s temperament, breed, and weight differs, and thus so should their training methods and equipment. Get to know your dog.

That's so important - every dog is differently and reacts differently to certain types of stimuli and tools.

So if someone came to you with a young puppy for training, and did not like to use a training collar but wanted to use a harness you would tell them different?

If they wanted to use a safe harness, yes. But not the traditional harness. I absolutley do not believe in them (I'm sure you could tell:laughing:), and if the client did not want to use a collar we would have to sit down and go through all of their other options.

And a training collar is meant to get tighter as they pull, so it is a negative response to pulling, do you not think this could harm a VERY young pup, or small delicate dog?


From experience, no, I don't believe that a martingale collar will harm a young puppy or a small dog. They are made to be safe and comfortable, when used correctly and sized properly. And I think that is the important point to remember - if someone does not know how to properly use any type of collar/harness and if they don't properly know how to correct their dog or train through either positive or negative reinforcement - they just shouldn't do it. A professional should be contacted. But that's for another thread.

If someone chooses a harness it is not right to tell them they are doing something wrong, and will create problems for themselves.

I agree. But in this situation the OP did not say anything about choosing a harness, which is why I brought up these points so that they were aware of all their options. :) I would never tell anyone NOT to use a harness, just like I did not tell you to stop after you told me you used a harness on your dog. If it's successful for dog and owner, then I would never expect anyone to stop. I think it is important though to be open-minded about the different tools and educate ourselves to know as much as we can about them.

And yes, I think we've both basically been saying the same thing, just in different ways.

lUvMyLaB<3
April 13th, 2009, 12:54 PM
yes that is what shocked me, that I was giving my opinion.. and you jumped on the harness thing.. and now this is all about harnesses, and yes you did tell me that harnesses were wrong.. I have not said collars are wrong, but sometimes a harness is a better choice. I am glad you chose quotes. But if you read all of it, you will have learned that a collar is NOT always safe for all dogs. and that is my point. If someone objects to using a collar for any reason that should be fine. The equipment should not be an issue. But I think i see where we conflict.. I don't really agree with using negative reinforcement, if you do, and some people like that, great! I however don't agree with inflicting pain to get the response you want. Especially if it is just to get the response faster. I like to ignore bad behavior and reward the positive. And it works for me.

Bailey_
April 13th, 2009, 01:04 PM
:offtopic: I'm really sad to see that through our conversation luvmylabs, I cannot seem to find common ground with you. You seem to think that I 'jumped on the harness thing', like I was just sitting and waiting for you personally to say something that I did not agree with, and let me assure you again - that was never the case. I don't appreciate the sarcasm about me choosing quotes from the article you provided - I DID read the entire thing and was glad that you were able to show me that article. I love educating myself and find that the internet is a great tool to do so. Believe it or not, the quote I brought out from the article you provided me was something I really found important and thought that it was exactly the point we both had in common: the fact that all dogs are different, and we as owners need to adjust to that.

and yes you did tell me that harnesses were wrong

No, I did not. Please do not say something so blatantly untrue, and go back and re-read my comments. As I've said time and time again in my comments regarding this, I was referring to the traditional harness. I have nothing against other safe types of harnesses that actually DO prevent pulling. My issue is with the flat harness, and I actually did not say it was 'wrong', but rather that this harness encourages pulling.

If someone objects to using a collar for any reason that should be fine

I did not object to this fact as I have stated time and time again. It IS fine, and I did not say it was not. I feel like I'm running in circles, and as this is getting severely off topic I will not be replying to any more of your comments made directly at me in this particular thread. Have a wonderful day, and thanks again for the link.

Promethean
April 13th, 2009, 06:30 PM
First you have to change your mindset. YOu don't really have to try to become the leader of the pack, mainly because there is no pack. What you have is an interspecific assemblage of animals. These pups aren't fighting you for leadership and if they do something it's not out of some machiavellian motive. You can choose to view the dogs as your enemies constantly trying to take over or you can view them as potential partners that need to be educated.

I would suggest you start walking them, traning them, even cuddling them individually. Who would want to spend time with a stranger that doesn't speak their language? You need to make your company far more rewarding than the environment and other dogs - this will means food rewards and play. Also, I think having them spend time separated from each other, and you would be a positve experience. This will make your entrance into their world so much more rewarding. After all, if they are together hanging out, you don't have much to offer.

If you walk them alone and it decides to stop, then let him. You job as this juncture is to make the walks and the leash a positive experience. Just stand there and wait.. after all it's a pup and it could be tired, it's thin pads may hurt from teh pavement or salt or it just wants to smell the surroundings. It doesn't really matter. He's with you, bonding with you and having a positive experience with you and that's the really important part - aside from seeing and experiencing new things - of the walk at this age.

Blackdog22
April 13th, 2009, 06:39 PM
Very well said, I agree 100%

Mat&Murph
April 13th, 2009, 08:18 PM
First you have to change your mindset. YOu don't really have to try to become the leader of the pack, mainly because there is no pack. What you have is an interspecific assemblage of animals. These pups aren't fighting you for leadership and if they do something it's not out of some machiavellian motive. You can choose to view the dogs as your enemies constantly trying to take over or you can view them as potential partners that need to be educated.

I would suggest you start walking them, traning them, even cuddling them individually. Who would want to spend time with a stranger that doesn't speak their language? You need to make your company far more rewarding than the environment and other dogs - this will means food rewards and play. Also, I think having them spend time separated from each other, and you would be a positve experience. This will make your entrance into their world so much more rewarding. After all, if they are together hanging out, you don't have much to offer.

If you walk them alone and it decides to stop, then let him. You job as this juncture is to make the walks and the leash a positive experience. Just stand there and wait.. after all it's a pup and it could be tired, it's thin pads may hurt from teh pavement or salt or it just wants to smell the surroundings. It doesn't really matter. He's with you, bonding with you and having a positive experience with you and that's the really important part - aside from seeing and experiencing new things - of the walk at this age.
Well Said!!!! I have alone time with my boys one on one and it works out great.

BenMax
April 14th, 2009, 08:17 AM
I personally am eager to hear back from the OP.

As for members taking things out of context - there is really no need for this. Together we can learn a few things if we are open enough to listen.

New Dog Owner
April 22nd, 2009, 02:27 PM
I got a lot of information from everyone and I'm very happy to say that not one person said that I needed to get rid of one of them, so thank you to everyone!

As for an update, well they are a little over 8 weeks now and we kind of took a mix of advices from everyone. We did end up keeping them together for a bit, but I started noticing some problems where they wouldn't listen to us calling them when they were together, no matter how hard we tried. In fact one seems to be the leader and wants to do his own thing and when he walks away the other would follow. So then we started seperating them, not 100% of the time, just some of the time. Doing this I think kind of gained the trust of the one that isn't so dominant and now when their together it's about a 85% chance of them listening.
So we kind of do half and half. During the day when we are not home, I bought two cages for the basement (4ft x 4ft) (basement has mutiple windows) and we currently keep them seperated but the cages are right next to each other. At night when we go to bed I have two of the "large" crates and we keep them seperated but in the same room with us and they are right next to each other. So when are they together? Basically whenever we are home or we are not going to be gone long we keep them together in the backyard and we also feed them together. It's about 10hrs each day during the week and about 18hrs each day on the weekend.

As for the walks, we still do them in an empty parking lot that is near the house or we take them to the pet store when it rains (got their first shots last weekend) and they seem to do fairly well. They still do play when on walks and they do tend to want to do their own thing but we took the advise of all of you and realized they are so young that is what they are going to do, so we are not overally concerned. The main thing for us is to get them out there, burn some of the massive amounts of energy they have, allow them to smell new things, get used to the sounds and meet people, but since they are still young when there is other dogs around we go the other way for now.

I am pleased to say that at night, we have not had one accident yet in the crate (knock on wood), they usually wake up, cry/bark I quickly bring them outside, they do their duty and I've got them to learn to walk right back inside (works about 90% of the time). As for when they are romping around the house, there is accidents, one is very good at going towards the door, pending he makes it, the other is more interested in playing, but I think we can manage.

As I'm sure with all pups, they do like to roll around in the mud, they are digging a hole, ripped off the bottom of gutter and started chewing on the bottom of the fence but they do stop when I say "no".

Overall they are doing well and we realized through all of the responses that although they might be "big" (20lbs), they are still pups and learning and playing is what they do best, so we are learning to enjoy and laugh about some of the things they do, but we are still stearn (without the frustration) with stuff we don't want them to do.

We have owned dogs before but never two together, so any more advice anyone has is much appreciated, or if you think were doing anything wrong, please let us know. Like I said we took a lot of it to heart and again thank you for not saying we had to get rid of one as that would have just made us more frustrated...there is a chance! :thumbs up

BenMax
April 22nd, 2009, 02:39 PM
I have to say I think you are doing GREAT!:thumbs up. Good for you!