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declawing and circumcision

lylag
August 4th, 2004, 11:49 AM
;) Just read the post re: declawing and I agree with almost everyone - declawing equals mutilation.

So here goes - what about human male circumcision - isn't this mutilation?
Even though both Jews and Muslims are required to do this, isn't it STILL mutilation. It seems to me that it is.

From my understanding there are puhhhlenty of males on this planet (probably the majority) that have their foreskin intact, so i am not convinced there is a health issue on this one.

So what do others think.....

Curious,

Lylag

sammiec
August 4th, 2004, 11:51 AM
This will be a heated thread. I would say I have not looked into it as I do not have kids, but it is something to consider. I have heard that there are health implications regarding the remaining forskin, that I don't know for sure. If it was so, I would circumsize...

heidiho
August 4th, 2004, 12:41 PM
That is true,people that are not circumsized are prone to catch diseases more likely thatn those who are circumsized.

lylag
August 4th, 2004, 12:56 PM
sorry heidiho but i think you are mistaken. I think this is an "old wive's tale"

If the risk is real then where ARE all these diseased men that still have their foreskins? I have had this converstaion with a quite few of my good foreskin intact male friends. Not one of them has ever had an issue relating to extra disease because of their extra skin.

Besides how would the disease be contributed to some extra skin that was there when god put it there. Lets face it...it just dangles. :p

The only thing I can think of is dirt. As long as you clean the foreskin properly there should be no issue with disease as far as my understanding goes.

Lylag

heidiho
August 4th, 2004, 01:00 PM
No it is not,but i am not gonna debate that here.

heidiho
August 4th, 2004, 01:01 PM
I dont know where they are and i hope i never meet them.

glasslass
August 4th, 2004, 02:06 PM
This may change in future generations, but currently, I'd say the major benefit is psychological, "fitting in" with the norm. When my hubby was in the army, the ones that weren't got major flack from the others. There were a couple that actually had it done because they were embarrassed. Sad, but that's how it was, and still is.

Sneaky2006
August 4th, 2004, 02:36 PM
If the risk is real then where ARE all these diseased men that still have their foreskins?
I am not sure, but it seems like you mean we think there is some uncircumcised penis disease... Which there is not. When I say there's disease involved with not being circumcised, it's more or less STD's and bacteria from urine that is my concern. Which is why my son is circumcised and why I don't regret it. I don't consider it mutilation.


sorry heidiho but i think you are mistaken. I think this is an "old wive's tale"
Actually it's not really an old wives tale...
Here is a quote from the WebMD site...
Another reason parents have their sons circumcised is that circumcision lessens the chance of urinary tract infection in the first year of life. Also, later in life, a circumcised male has a lower chance of contracting a sexually transmitted disease than an uncircumcised male does.


I have had this converstaion with a quite few of my good foreskin intact male friends.
Do your friends wash themselves each time they pee? I highly doubt it and that's not sanitary (and gross).

So, there's my 2 cents.

heidiho
August 4th, 2004, 02:51 PM
Thank you Sneaky that is exactly it.STD'S

Shae
August 4th, 2004, 03:02 PM
Declawing a cat vs circumcision? These are 2 totally different procedures. Times are changing with circumcision, true. Very touchy subject. I prayed for girls just so I wouldn't have to make the choice. My nephew is not ...he's 2 and doing fine. However, my g/f's son was not also.....and at age 7 began developing infections and other health issues. Had he been circ. at birth this would have been much easier on the child. Seven is a very tender age and he experienced a lot of pain,tears,embarrassment, and teasing from peers. Same thing with my 2nd cousin, he wasn't either and had to go through this at 12 years of age! I think it's a tough call and not a decision that can NOT be made lightly. Both parents need to weigh pro's and cons and make this difficult choice for their infant. Myself, I admit, I would probably have it done for fear of later complications.....but again, not sure.

lylag
August 4th, 2004, 03:03 PM
For me it seems to a simple question of cleanliness. If a parent cleans the baby's foreskin then incidence of UTI should go down.
Likewise a male that showers and cleans the forskin regularly should not have a greater of Incidence of UTI or STD

as for the quote
"Do your friends wash themselves each time they pee? I highly doubt it and that's not sanitary (and gross)."

I think that that's silly. Do all the ladies on this board wash after each pee? I mean we try to stay clean but who has the time for all that washing? :D

I must say I am a bit surpised that nobody thinks that circumcision is mutilation. Ask yourself what IS mutilation? It is obviously something that humans have introduced into the culture, perhaps for suspicious reasons that were/are religiously based.

I just don't buy the health reason. I mean if you don't clean your mouth or your pubic area....then yes obviously you are likely to have a higher chance of infection. Maybe laziness is the reason. Less skin equals less cleaning.

But is that a good enough reason to take a blade to your child's penis?

Still stirring.... :eek:

Lylag

Shae
August 4th, 2004, 03:07 PM
Lylag, I honestly dont know what I would do. People have very strong views on this subject and both sides have valid points. I am grateful I need not have to worry about making such a decision

stbeachy
August 4th, 2004, 03:11 PM
I AGREE with Heidho and Sneaky....

This is a cleanliness and health issue...not an old wives tale.

I have to say that for my little boy, I HATED doing it thinking about the pain but KNEW it was best. I looked into the ways they do it, the most pain free, and did the best thing as a parent I could do. When you have a little boy, his private parts are a very emotional thing to handle......if he is uncircumcised.....he needs to take care of that, and at a young age, he is UNABLE to REALLY care for it, and most boys (and KIDS in general) get laxidasical (spelling?) in hygenical routines. SOOOO, yes, I can take care of washing him now.....but soon he won't even want mommy in the room when he is changing, and then it will be his responsibility to care for himself, and I wouldn't want to put all of that responsibility on him to make sure he cleans EVERYTHING. He is a little boy and I am his mommy, and we made the best decision for us.

I am for circumcision, and yes....even if it is for the reason of fitting in also....again, boy emotions are deep, and not likely open with others, so it is harder for them to discuss embarassing feelings of being different.

It is good emotionally and physically.

heidiho
August 4th, 2004, 03:13 PM
I do not have kids,but as far as i see it,this has been going on for years,if i had a boy,no doubt in my mind i would have him circumsized.

Shae
August 4th, 2004, 03:13 PM
Stbeachy......yes, see, that is what happened in both cases I mentioned I would assume. They got to an age where they were not about to let mommy clean them anymore of course and perhaps didn't do it or do it well or often enough.

heidiho
August 4th, 2004, 03:15 PM
You are right also about emotionally,i can recall many a times me and the girls lookin at magazines and being grossed out by un circumsized, a mans private parts are soooo part of his ego and i would not want my kid to ever be laughed at when they got older.

stbeachy
August 4th, 2004, 03:19 PM
YEs....I DO have 2 boys......both circumcised. Like I said, I HATED thinking about it......but their daddy said DEFINITELY and explained to me WHY....and I agreed. I prayed the whole time my second was out of the room getting it done and cried with him.....but still, as a parent we have to do what is best. Do we leave a cut seeping open just to not have to put a kid through stitches.....no! They hurt sometimes worse than the cut, but we do what we have to do to protect our kids, and it ain't always the easy decision that is best.


BOYS are BOYS with BOY feelings......and this HAS to be taken in to consideration. ALSO putting kids under undue responsibility? Not necessary. You tell me one man that can even remember the procedure!


They handled it better then than having to handle a health problem or an embarasing moment with other kids at a later time.

My opinion! My kids! Like I said.....best decision for us! :D

Sneaky2006
August 4th, 2004, 03:25 PM
I think that that's silly. Do all the ladies on this board wash after each pee? I mean we try to stay clean but who has the time for all that washing?

No, I'm sure they don't every time but we do wipe, something I am sure men don't even do... Which there is no need for if there's no foreskin. We could argue about this till we're blue in the face and you know what? It doesn't matter. No matter which way you look at it, having skin covering the tip of the penis (where fluids are excreted) leaves way more room for infection (of any kind) that's obvious.

But is that a good enough reason to take a blade to your child's penis?

You're acting like they cut the penis off!! Taking a blade to your child's penis is hardly the way to look at it. It should be looked at as removing a burden and source of infection that takes 10 minutes.

If you had a patch of skin covering your cooch, would you leave it there because god put it there? I'm sure you wouldn't, just as tons of women would have it removed as well. Sorry, I don't know if all women would but I know I sure would!! That is for sure.

heidiho
August 4th, 2004, 03:38 PM
Yep,who would remember..

chico2
August 4th, 2004, 05:05 PM
My 2 cents :D My husband being from France,my 3 sons,1 born in Canada are not circumsized,are as healthy and clean as anyone else.
When I was asked about circumsizing my youngest,born here in Canada,I did not even know what it was and said no way :eek:
In Europe it's a religious thing and noone else does it,I've seen a Jewish ceremony and I just about fainted,with the poor little baby howling in pain,it's cruel and unusual punishment IMHO.
Everything we are born with,is there for a reason and "if it ain't broke,why fix it" :confused:

heidiho
August 4th, 2004, 05:38 PM
I am not saying everyone that is not circumsized has disease,but they are more prone to it.And it is a choice thank god.

melanie
August 4th, 2004, 06:08 PM
hello but a little common sense goes a long way. well if you actually look at the use of that awful procedure it was developed at a time and in a society that often lived in harsh elements with little water and the ppl did not shower often. so cicumcision has no real place in todays western society as we have plenty of water and soap. as far as later complications, yes there is the odd case of complications in an uncircumcised penis but that is rare and easily treated. in third world areas i can see a useful application but that is it. if you do the boys why not the girls?? they do girls in many countries and it is a horrific, mutilating procudure and just inhumane. i see no difference for the boys either, as far as psychological probs go, well i think removing the fore skin could do that on its own, basically saying to boys that your body is wrong and we have to remove something, that to me is actually cruel. in australia you have to search long and hard for a doctor to do it anyway. no men in my family have had it done and they are all healthy, happy and intact. i see no reason to declaw a cat either, god put it there so why does it need to be removed?? and that my lovelies is my 20c worth. :D :D

heidiho
August 4th, 2004, 06:11 PM
God put alot of things on people that shouldnt always be there and people have taken off.Like conjoined twins,should they not have surgery because all the pain they are going to endure?? Babies born with club feet,do we just leave them like that?? And so on and so on

Shae
August 4th, 2004, 06:12 PM
Like I say, both sides have valid points, however, the 2 young boys I mentioned in my thread were not "easily" treated. The both need to go into hospital and be circumsized at 7 and 12. Nothing easy about that, physically or emotionally.

Cactus Flower
August 4th, 2004, 07:13 PM
well if you actually look at the use of that awful procedure it was developed at a time and in a society that often lived in harsh elements with little water and the ppl did not shower often. so cicumcision has no real place in todays western society as we have plenty of water and soap.

Yes, and we also have many other irritants that cause UTI's that we didn't have back then. Such as laundry detergent, fabric softener, water chlorination etc, as well as pollutions and foods that lower our immunity to said infections.

Do women wash every time they pee? Nope, but as was mentioned - we wipe- and we don't have a foreskin. Women are encouraged to use panties that allow lots of air flow because anything that holds in moisture makes you more prone to infection. That is what foreskins do.

Now back to the issue at hand: circumcision versus cropping. As far as I know, they are now numbing the penis before circumcising, and as far as I know they do not numb the puppies being cropped. So yes, I see one procedure as far more humane than the other.

Writing4Fun
August 4th, 2004, 09:24 PM
I have 2 boys and so researched this topic thoroughly when I was faced with that decision. :eek:

There are pros and cons to both arguements (very wishy-washy of me, I know). I know many intact men who have had problems, but I know an equal number of circumcised boys who developed problems as a result of their operations. I have to say, the problems of the intact men weren't nearly as bad as those of the poorly-healed circumcisions (ouch!)!

The risk of disease is increased because of the cleanliness factor, as has already been pointed out, so I won't beat it to death.

My final deciding factor was a conversation with my family doctor. I thought, being Jewish, he would be pro-circumcision all the way. His advice, however, was to "do what Dad did". In other words, the child's first memories will be comparing his penis to his father's. If the two are different, it could traumatize the child.

Finally, I think it's highly unfair to compare declawing a cat with a male circumcision. Like I said, I discussed this issue with many men while I was making my decision about circumcision. I have yet to find a declawed cat who can tell me how he feels about losing his claws! :rolleyes:

Cactus Flower
August 5th, 2004, 12:09 AM
"Do what Dad did"...........interesting!!!!!!!!

melanie
August 5th, 2004, 03:09 AM
now i would like to start this by stating this thread was not started by me, and the following is my belief or opinions of this hot topic. but it seems by this thread that i live in a very different society to many of you and that my countrymen hold very different beliefs on the topic (even my redneck friends dont do their kids), yay for my lovely australia.
sadly this is a thread based on wives tales and assumptions, and definatly not on medical fact. by the way, if you are to get an STD a foreskin makes no difference, what does the disease say 'wow well that is aclean skin so i will only go for one with flaps on it' my god stds dont work like that, when a uncircumsiced penis is fully erect the forskin folds back and it looks just like the rest, std susceptability just is a ridiculous excuse., that is like saying a black person is more suseptable to aids, duuuhhh, no common sense at all, why not go and ask a normal doctor. well i am glad i live in a country where it is not normal these days and hard to do, harldy anyone does it so by the time my nephew is a man it will be very normal to have a foreskin and no 'psychological' damage can be done further on..
and i dont see how there is any connection between physical deformities such as club feet and a foreskin, fore skin is not a physical deformity. but sadly this thread indicates this cruel practice will continue. oh and the argument of he wont look like daddy, i asked around today and every man i spoke to said they did not actually recall the look of their fathers penis and very rarely stand around looking at others. it is just another excuse to justify the procedure by ppl who have absolutly no idea what they are doing and no real reason so cannot justify subjecting a small child to it..well another 20cents spent :D

stbeachy
August 5th, 2004, 08:33 AM
Well, here comes my 20 cents too.

MY son DOES pay attention to his daddy's body parts......just because you asked GROWN men if they recall that, doesn't mean that they would recall that. Most of the time you forget things at the ages of 3 and 4, unless it is something traumatic.....like being different than daddy. To a child, that is a big deal, obviously, you have not gone through this, or you would know of all the questions of Why? and alot of why questions stem from something being different than that child.

It is NOT mutilating, or inhumane. There ARE certain risks and as a mom, that is why I chose to make that decision. I can't comprehend putting a 7/12 year old through that like was above mentioned! At the age and time of the circumcision.....there is NO recolection of it! So....prayerfully, we did it and God truly was there and saw the procedure through, went great and healed great as the majority do. MY DOCTOR who did the circumcision, circumcised all of his boys.

LUCKILY, most worlds are free for you too choose. I am not saying that it is wrong for you to choose other wise, however, it is NOT mutilization. And it is NOT wrong. I am comfortable in knowing that my boys are safe and healthy. AND guess what......I know this from EXPERIENCE.

chico2
August 5th, 2004, 08:54 AM
Since most of us here are females,it's kind of a strange subject :eek:
Another procedure that really bothered me since living in Canada,was how easily doctors recommend hystorectemys for the slightest medical problem.
At 34yrs of age my husband decided to have a vasectomy,since we already had 3 sons.Our family doctor was strongly against it,suggested that I,a very healthy female,have a full hystorectemy(sp?),why bother with tubes tied,might as well eliminate any risk of disease!!!
I was stunned at his reasoning and hubby eventually had his procedure and never regretted it for a moment.
I am "all there"and at 60 have never had any problems,other than the dreaded menopause,which I successfully treat with herbal HRT.
I know in Sweden,a hystorectomy is performed only in extreme circumstances not as a preventative procedure,actually the same goes for Cecarian(SP?)births,another many times expensive and modern procedure.

chico2
August 5th, 2004, 10:05 AM
I am glad we live in a free country,the choice is ours...but as for culture etc..things have changed since our forfathers,cleanliness is almost an obcession.I know in my house,the shower was always running :D
My three sons would shower every morning,sometimes after school too,being dirty would never be a problem,not in our society.
When I was a kid(a few years ago!!)I was allowed one bath a week and I hated it,firmly believed it would wash my suntan away :D
Culture is fine and dandy,but some of it does not fit into our modern society.

Cactus Flower
August 5th, 2004, 02:38 PM
the dreaded menopause,which I successfully treat with herbal HRT.


Chico2

Would it be possible for you to share your herbal HRT regiment? I am told that women who have polycystic ovarian syndrome (as I do) often benefit from menopausal remedies. Perhaps you could post this on the "Off Topic" forum, as I'm guessing others might be interested as well.
I had a hysterectomy, they left my ovaries, but my ovaries have given me nothing but trouble ever since. I'd be very grateful if you could share what worked for you.

(Sorry to go off-topic here)

Cactus Flower
August 5th, 2004, 05:28 PM
Thank you!

Headed that way right now!.... :)

SSAC
August 6th, 2004, 01:25 AM
Wow! what a topic/s. Declaw........VERY painful op. You don't just remove the claws, you actually remove part of the bone. It's the only way to ensure that the claws do not "grow back".
We do declaw at our clinic. We would rather not, we try to offer alternatives. However, in the eyes of the law, an animal is considered property and it is the owners choice (in Canada).
We (the clinic) choose to declaw to prevent owners from taking their cats to vets that maybe aren't as concerned about the pain level as we are......A fentanyl patch is always used, in conjunction with other pain meds (IF needed). A TPR (temperature, pulse and resps) are done every 2-3 hrs, with the idea that if the HR is high, the cat is most likely experiancing pain. (Althougth very unlikely on a fentanyl patch). We keep the cat hospitalized for 2days minimum and send the cat home with an oral anti-inflammatory. The patch lasts for 3 days, so we have the owner bring the cat back on the 3rd day, to remove the patch. This also allows us to look at the Paws to make sure that they are healing well, as some owners do let there cats outside, even though thay are told not to for atleast 10 days. :eek:

]We refuse to do 4 paw declaws. [/B] :D
FYI: Declawing is illegal in the U.K........ hmmm

Circumcision..........Not a medical Dr, so really can't comment on the medical side of that. Personally chose not to do it to my son, simply because it's never been done in my family or my husbands and no one in our families have ever had medical or emotional problems from not having it done.
I personally don't think that you can compare declawing with circumsision. As far as I know, you don't cut any bone off in circumcision? :confused:

I used to work for a vet that declawed, bandaged and left the cat in a cage overnight with No pain meds at all! Not even when removing the bandages! ouch :mad: Needless to say, I did not work there for long, as I was disgusted. Remember that there are vets out there, that don't care about an animals pain level :( So................If you do deceide to declaw, ASK about pain management. Ask for a fentanyl patch. A patch may? cost you $20.00 - $30.00 dollars more, but isn't it worth it?

None of my cats are declawed.......just personal choice.......my cat is worth more than my couch.
That's what they make slip covers for (just kidding on the slip covers) :D

SSAC
August 6th, 2004, 02:42 PM
Just another quick note.................Even though I stated that there are vets out there that aren't concerned with an animals pain level. I must also say that there are many, many, many vets that are great and DO care. Fortunately the good ones DO out weigh the not so good.

If you worry about choosing a vet, ask questions, get referals, ask for a quick, short tour of the clinic. Trust your "gut" instinicts. 99% become vets because they love animals. :D

Iggette
August 9th, 2004, 11:27 AM
My 2 Cents

Declawing - Unfair

Cirumcision=mutilation IMHO shouldn't be done on males or females. Don't believe it causes any health problems if cared for in a proper way as any body part

TalonsMa
August 9th, 2004, 06:07 PM
My husband was not circumsised, as well as either of his brother's. He has never had a problem. When his brother had a son, they decided not to circumsize him either, he is now 19 months old, and no problems at all.
When we have children, if they are boys, we will not circumsize them. I don't feel it's necessary.