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Another question about Orijen and the WDJ

SuperWanda
February 4th, 2009, 05:00 PM
I don't subscribe to the whole dog journal but found the list for 2009 on-line and Orijen didn't seem to be included.
Does anyone know why it didn't make the list?

I do know that Champion pet foods did get the Glycemic Research Institutes pet food of the year award:
http://www.glycemic.com/PetFood.htm

SuperWanda
February 4th, 2009, 05:03 PM
Okay - I think I may have found my own answer:

Apparently the WDJ has a March issue for grain-free foods which is not out yet.

spottydog
February 4th, 2009, 08:09 PM
I heard about that too, did a search and this popped up. Am surprised Orijen isn't there. I think its the right one:
http://www.geocities.com/rottndobie/wholedogjournal.html

Was pleased to see Addiction on the list! I've always thought they make great foods and feel it doesn't get recognized enough.

Dekka
February 4th, 2009, 11:22 PM
I was not terribly impressed by the list. The ingredients looked ok but I would be hesitant to say that a dog food that is the same % of protein that I feed my horses is the 'best'

Shouldn't a carnivore eat more protein that a herbivore (total diet)?

I feed raw and that is closer to 50% protein.

kandy
February 5th, 2009, 10:40 AM
I subscribe to the whole dog journal - and yes, they have seperate listings for kibble, grain free kibble, wet food and 'alternative' foods like premix supplement for raw, etc. I do think that Orijen appears on their grain free listings - although I'd have to check to be sure. The wet food listing came out in the January issue and the kibble is in the February issue. The Grain free kibble listing should be coming out soon and the alternative diet listings come out later in the year.

They have very strict criteria which must be met for a food to be listed in its proper category. One of the newest criteria is that a manufacturer must reveal their processing plant - and some quality foods were taken off their lists last year because the companies refused to divulge that information. They make a point to say that these foods are probably still a high quality product, they just feel that manufacturers should be more sensitive to the needs of the consumer - and with the massive recalls of 2007, the processing plant they use is very important information for consumers to have. Some of the foods that appear on their dry listing aren't foods that I would feed for one reason or another - but all the foods listed do meet their criteria.

I personally find the publication very informative - and because they don't accept advertising, I am confident that they publish non-biased information.

babysweet
February 5th, 2009, 01:20 PM
I've been less than impressed for several years with their lists.

They've listed over and over again Triumph as a canned food when "Animal Liver" is regularly listed on several of their cans, and they continue to list foods made by companies that have TERRIBLE records of producing aflatoxin and vomitoxin contaminated foods.

I don't put a whole lot of stock in what the WDJ considers a "good food."

And just because they don't accept advertising dollars doesn't mean that their list is un-biased....

Another great example is the Natural Balance Eatables - the ingredients list is less than stellar - there's no WAY it would make my recommended list. They use artificial colouring!

katiebear
February 6th, 2009, 01:37 PM
I was not terribly impressed by the list. The ingredients looked ok but I would be hesitant to say that a dog food that is the same % of protein that I feed my horses is the 'best'

Shouldn't a carnivore eat more protein that a herbivore (total diet)?

I feed raw and that is closer to 50% protein.

Just want to mention in regards to protein that meat doesn't equal 100% protein - there's a lot more stuff in it than just solid protein. There's also fat and moisture. A high protein diet (like Orijen that has a protein level of 42%) gets that protein % from meat meal sources which is essentially concentrated protein since all the moisture and fat get burned off. So a raw diet even if all you feed is 100% meat is not going to equal 100% protein. It usually works out to about 25% protein (depending on the type of meat used, of course)

babysweet
February 6th, 2009, 06:52 PM
Ah, but let's compare apples to apples here.

Orijen is 10% moisture and 42% protein. On a dry matter basis (which is really what counts) the protein content is 46.7%.

Chicken leg (raw, DM basis) - approximately 66% protein (including bone)
Chicken breast (raw, DM basis) - approximately 68% protein (bone removed)
Ground beef (raw, DM basis) - approximately 44.8% protein (no bone, 80% lean)
Beef Liver (raw, DM basis) - 69.5% protein (no bone, obviously)

As you can see, for the most part, a raw diet, on a dry matter basis, is higher in protein than even high protein kibbles. This doesn't account for a small amount of vegetable matter that some people add, but many people add none at all, and on a DM basis, vegetable matter changes protein content to an insignificant extent due to the extremely high water content.

In addition, absorption rates of raw food are MUCH higher than even cooked meats, let alone kibbles. Compare a raw poop to a kibble poop if you need proof. ;)

A substantial amount of nutrients in kibble remain undigested in the feces, even in the best of kibbles. I'm not knocking kibbles - four of the five dogs currently residing in my home are grain free kibble dogs, including one of my own - but comparing protein content of kibble to that of raw by counting moisture content is similar to those people who knock canned food in the same fashion.

Salad is mostly water too - that doesn't mean it's not rich in vitamins and antioxidants you can't find anywhere else, or that concentrated artificial vitamins are somehow better for you. In fact, the opposite is true for the same reasons stated above. We tend to excrete the vast majority of the vitamin supplements we eat - whereas the vitamins we get from our real food are absorbed much more readily, unless of course we have some kind of metabolic or digestive issue interfering.

Once again, I'm not saying that vitamins are bad, or that they don't have their place - I'm simply saying that you can't compare the two in a fair and unbiased manner. It's like comparing a Civic to a Durango - they both have their uses, their ups and their downs - but just because they're both vehicles doesn't mean they are comparable - that's why we have different classes when we hold one up against another (compact, sedan, pickup, full size pickup, etc.)

Etown_Chick
February 6th, 2009, 08:04 PM
I used my own brain to decide that Orijen is what's best for Scruffy. It may not have magazine backing, but its what I use to decide most things lol.
Feed what YOU think is best. Works for us.

Dekka
February 6th, 2009, 08:06 PM
Just want to mention in regards to protein that meat doesn't equal 100% protein - there's a lot more stuff in it than just solid protein. There's also fat and moisture. A high protein diet (like Orijen that has a protein level of 42%) gets that protein % from meat meal sources which is essentially concentrated protein since all the moisture and fat get burned off. So a raw diet even if all you feed is 100% meat is not going to equal 100% protein. It usually works out to about 25% protein (depending on the type of meat used, of course)

If you dry out a raw diet complete with bone (so its comparable to kibble) then it comes out to just under 50% which puts it on par with Orijen. The % are based on produce volume (unlike human foods which % if often from calories)

So when feeding kibble I would never feed one under 35%. But you look at the top food on that list and its 24%.. not too far off what my horses eat!!!

(and don't get me started on actual digestible protein....)

Dekka
February 6th, 2009, 08:07 PM
Excellent post Babysweet!

gypsy_girl
February 9th, 2009, 11:41 PM
Although on a DM basis most meats are similar to high protein kibble, you would also want to look at the amount that is consumed in grams of ingestion per day or BW.
This way you know that actual amount of protein being consumed. The last time I did the calculation for this, a raw diet was significantly lower in grams ingested than a high protein kibble.

kandy
February 10th, 2009, 10:56 AM
Although I've only subscribed to this publication for 2 years, I've never seen Triumph canned food on their approved list. They do continue to list some products made by Diamond, although not the formulas that have been recalled due to contamination with mycotoxins. Natural Balance Eatables also does not appear on their list, although there are 2 Natural Balance products that do.

I'm surprised that there is so much disdain for this publication. Their selection criteria for the different forms of food vary, but are quite close to the criteria that I've seen echoed on this forum numerous times such as no un-named meat protein sources, no by-products, quality meat protein listed as a first ingredient, limited use of grains (and whole grains preferred over fragments), etc. After the recalls of 2007 (which involved gluten contamination - a low cost binder found in low quality wet food), they required companies to reveal their manufacturing plants, which I certainly applaud. They also stress that kibble is not an optimum diet for dogs, no matter how good the ingredients and they urge people to look at raw and homecooked diets, or at least wet food.

But in answer to the OP's original question - Orijen does appear on their listing for grain free kibble, which hasn't been released for 2009 yet.

Blab
February 10th, 2009, 11:54 AM
There seems to be lots of focus on how much daily protein is really necessary for dogs on this and other forums, but not as much discussion about all the other things that also contribute to a dog food being nutritious.

Unlike cats which are true carnivores, dogs supposedly evolved, like bears, to be opportunist eaters and supplimenting often scavenged meat with some vegetable matter. The book I'm reading now, "Its Me or the Dog" by Victoria Stillwell, says "an adult dog should only gain about 10% of his total daily calorie intake from protein. This can be either vegetable or animal protein. The dog doesn't need vast amounts of protein. In fact, too much protein in a dog's diet has been linked with higher levels of aggression." On choosing packaged dog foods Victoria suggests to avoid "mass market brands and opt for natural or organic dog foods that are free of chemicals and preservatives. Many of these are low in protein...but they contain more nutrients and satisfy your dog more readily so you should not have to feed as much."

I have to say that I agree with Victoria on food with quality ingredients than just by comparing the highest concentrations of protein. Many old school dog food manufacturers still use anything they can't even put into SPAM into those unnamed meat meals, and natural brands that stay clear of nasty preservatives etc like Origen are certainly a welcome improvement. Certified organic food is also welcome because not only is the food free of pesticides its also third party certified as such--not just the dog food manufacturer itself making claims that their food is "natural" or "human grade" or other terms that don't really mean anything quantitative.

But other things are also important like not buying too large dog food bags (unless you freeze it) so the food doesn't go stale before the dog can eat it, and only buying foods with a best before date to ensure it's fresh. If a dog food isn't fresh it is not only harder for your pooch to digest but won't have all the listed protein and nutrients available. Here is a great article that poses the question "Would you keep a loaf of bread open in your kitchen for 39 days? We hope not. That’s how long the typical opened bag of dog food lasts.": http://naturalpaw.wordpress.com/2007/11/19/how-you-store-dry-dog-food-will-affect-your-dogs-health/ The authors, Steve Brown and Beth Taylor, go on to say: "Lengthy storage time and poor storage conditions lead to nutrient degradation, oxidation of fats, and infestation by molds, mites and other food spoilers. One in three dogs dies of cancer. We think improper storage at home is a major contributing factor."

bendyfoot
February 10th, 2009, 12:24 PM
Actually, the notion that dogs are omnivores or scavengers is a myth. Recent DNA studies have conclusively determined that, regardless of breed, all dogs are in fact a subspecies of wolf (Canis lupus familiaris). Wolves are true carnivores. They do not consume vegetable matter unless they are forced to in times of famine. Dogs are the same. There is no need to feed dogs vegetable matter or grains.

I have a hard time beleiving that there is any conclusive evidence linking protein intake to aggression. I'd like to see the study that lead the author you're citing to say that. :rolleyes:

kandy
February 10th, 2009, 12:40 PM
While it's true that dogs CAN digest plant protein, their bodies aren't very efficient at it and the amino acids that they get naturally from meat protein must be added to a grain based diet. That's why the low quality grain based foods suggest to feed so much, it takes that much food for the dog to get the nutrients it needs, and of course the rest is expelled as waste. Too much grain also causes an imbalance in Omega 3 to Omega 6 fatty acids and can cause intestinal problems like IBD or SIBO. Animal based protein sources are much better for your dog.

Blab
February 11th, 2009, 11:03 AM
I totally agree Kandy that from what I've read too, and all else being good, dog food without grain (especially wheat) is a better way to go too. Georgie's now eating the Orijen fish and about to try the Go! Grain Free which is produced closer to where I live. But after that I'll likely switch to Organix unless Petcurean or Champion puts out a certified organic kibble in the meantime.

In the same book Victoria also calls dogs omnivores and goes on to say that "they will eat almost anything--including what we would not consider to be food!" Which pretty much describes my Georgie! But I understand that there are those that challenge this view Bendyfoot.

Here is the abstract of one study linking high protein to aggression:
Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association
August 15, 2000, Vol. 217, No. 4, Pages 504-508
doi: 10.2460/javma.2000.217.504
Effect of dietary protein content and tryptophan supplementation on dominance aggression, territorial aggression, and hyperactivity in dogs.
Jean S. DeNapoli, DVM Nicholas H. Dodman, BVMS, DACVB Louis Shuster, PhD William M. Rand, PhD Kathy L. Gross, PhD
Department of Clinical Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine, Tufts University, Grafton, MA 01536. (DeNapoli, Dodman); Departments of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics, School of Medicine, Boston, MA 02111. (Shuster); Community Health, School of Medicine, Boston, MA 02111. (Rand); Hill's Pet Nutrition Inc, Science and Technology Center, PO Box 1658, Topeka, KS 66601-1658. (Gross).
Objective—To evaluate the effect of high- and lowprotein diets with or without tryptophan supplementation on behavior of dogs with dominance aggression, territorial aggression, and hyperactivity.
Design—Prospective crossover study.
Animals—11 dogs with dominance aggression, 11 dogs with territorial aggression, and 11 dogs with hyperactivity.
Procedure—In each group, 4 diets were fed for 1 week each in random order with a transition period of not < 3 days between each diet. Two diets had low protein content (approximately 18%), and 2 diets had high protein content (approximately 30%). Two of the diets (1 low-protein and 1 high-protein) were supplemented with tryptophan. Owners scored their dog's behavior daily by use of customized behavioral score sheets. Mean weekly values of 5 behavioral measures and serum concentrations of serotonin and tryptophan were determined at the end of each dietary period.
Results—For dominance aggression, behavioral scores were highest in dogs fed unsupplemented high-protein rations. Tryptophan-supplemented low-protein diets were associated with significantly lower behavioral scores than low-protein diets without tryptophan supplements.
Conclusions and Clinical Relevance—For dogs with dominance aggression, the addition of tryptophan to high-protein diets or change to a low-protein diet may reduce aggression. For dogs with territorial aggression, tryptophan supplementation of a low-protein diet may be helpful in reducing aggression. (J Am Vet Med Assoc 2000;217:504–508)

babysweet
February 11th, 2009, 11:40 AM
Unlike cats which are true carnivores, dogs supposedly evolved, like bears, to be opportunist eaters and supplimenting often scavenged meat with some vegetable matter. The book I'm reading now, "Its Me or the Dog" by Victoria Stillwell, says "an adult dog should only gain about 10% of his total daily calorie intake from protein. This can be either vegetable or animal protein. The dog doesn't need vast amounts of protein. In fact, too much protein in a dog's diet has been linked with higher levels of aggression." On choosing packaged dog foods Victoria suggests to avoid "mass market brands and opt for natural or organic dog foods that are free of chemicals and preservatives. Many of these are low in protein...but they contain more nutrients and satisfy your dog more readily so you should not have to feed as much."


Sorry, I have to disagree on a number of levels. While its true that dogs are scavengers, what they can survive on and what they THRIVE on are two very different ideals.

As for a 10% protein diet, you'd have a dead dog. Even AAFCO has a minimum 18% protein necessary for survival.

"Too much protein" in a dog's diet (which is a misleading statement given that there IS no maximum/higher end recommendation - and in fact higher protein foods are now being studied and being shown to improve CRF survival, diabetes, obesity, etc) does NOT lead to aggression. You're extrapolating a conclusion from the opinions of some behaviourists who feel that an aggressive dog can be helped by lowering his protein levels.

This is, in essence, like saying that you have a problem with your car going too fast. So instead of putting top quality fuel in it, you put low-grade fuel from a second rate pump. Guess what... your car runs slower! But the long term damage from that second rate fuel is the true concern.

Sure, you can slow an aggressive dog down a bit by making him feel sluggish... but it doesn't get to the root of the problem, and it doesn't prove one iota that a high protein diet CAUSES the issue to begin with. As a matter of fact, we've found that many dogs with fear aggression issues, or dogs with high reactivity are actually improved by going on a high protein diet. Once you remove all the fillers and the dog feels better physically, his mood improves.

In addition, the comment regarding low protein organic foods containing "more nutrients" is completely false. These foods don't contain any actual nutrients in their highly bioavailable form (animal sources) and so any nutrients that ARE present are supplemented back in artificially, leading to further issues.

The Organix brand mentioned is a perfect example. The dog kcal/cup is not available online, but the feline formulation presents 390kcal/cup and recommends 1 cup for a 15lb cat, and 1/8 cup for every 5lb above that. This means that my 26lb cat (who is not overweight, just a giant of a feline...) would eat 1 1/2 cups of Organix. He currently maintains his weight on 1/3 cup of Orijen cat.

Even accounting for the fact that feeding guidelines are often high, the kcal/cup difference (Orijen is 540kcal/cup) and the difference in digestibility with Orijen being comprised mainly of meat products and Organix primarily of grain products - well, I'm sorry, but your assertion does not hold water.

bendyfoot
February 11th, 2009, 11:59 AM
That's one study, and my googling says it hasn't been replicated. Doesn't hold much water then. Othe issues: 1. very low sample size 2. Not a "blind" study, owners knew what diets they were feeding 3. results not listed as "significant" with respect to protein levels, only tryptophan levels. This article's not saying much (if anything) conclusively.

babysweet
February 11th, 2009, 12:23 PM
Here is the abstract of one study linking high protein to aggression:
Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association
August 15, 2000, Vol. 217, No. 4, Pages 504-508
doi: 10.2460/javma.2000.217.504
Effect of dietary protein content and tryptophan supplementation on dominance aggression, territorial aggression, and hyperactivity in dogs.
Jean S. DeNapoli, DVM Nicholas H. Dodman, BVMS, DACVB Louis Shuster, PhD William M. Rand, PhD Kathy L. Gross, PhD
Department of Clinical Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine, Tufts University, Grafton, MA 01536. (DeNapoli, Dodman); Departments of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics, School of Medicine, Boston, MA 02111. (Shuster); Community Health, School of Medicine, Boston, MA 02111. (Rand); Hill's Pet Nutrition Inc, Science and Technology Center, PO Box 1658, Topeka, KS 66601-1658. (Gross).
Objective—To evaluate the effect of high- and lowprotein diets with or without tryptophan supplementation on behavior of dogs with dominance aggression, territorial aggression, and hyperactivity.
Design—Prospective crossover study.
Animals—11 dogs with dominance aggression, 11 dogs with territorial aggression, and 11 dogs with hyperactivity.
Procedure—In each group, 4 diets were fed for 1 week each in random order with a transition period of not < 3 days between each diet. Two diets had low protein content (approximately 18%), and 2 diets had high protein content (approximately 30%). Two of the diets (1 low-protein and 1 high-protein) were supplemented with tryptophan. Owners scored their dog's behavior daily by use of customized behavioral score sheets. Mean weekly values of 5 behavioral measures and serum concentrations of serotonin and tryptophan were determined at the end of each dietary period.
Results—For dominance aggression, behavioral scores were highest in dogs fed unsupplemented high-protein rations. Tryptophan-supplemented low-protein diets were associated with significantly lower behavioral scores than low-protein diets without tryptophan supplements.
Conclusions and Clinical Relevance—For dogs with dominance aggression, the addition of tryptophan to high-protein diets or change to a low-protein diet may reduce aggression. For dogs with territorial aggression, tryptophan supplementation of a low-protein diet may be helpful in reducing aggression. (J Am Vet Med Assoc 2000;217:504–508)

A hundred times I have poked holes in this study. For one, the small number of dogs in the sample. Secondly, their methods of evaluating "hyperactivity" and "territorial aggression" can be questioned. Instead of treating a "hyperactive" dog with low-protein food, how about getting the dog into a home where he/she will receive adequate exercise, stimulation and training necessary for his breed and personality? Dodman is also a huge proponent of medicating dogs and cats with behavioural issues. While behavioural meds certainly have their place, it is my feeling that Dodman is guilty of serious over-dependence and would be better off waking some of these people up to the fact that their dog requires attention, exercise and consistency - not drugs.

A perfect example of Dodman's beliefs can be found in his most recent book "Puppy's First Steps - A proven approach to raising a healthy, well-behaved companion."

In it he states the following:

- If you want a huggy, kissy dog who's going to sit on your lap, a canine from the Working Group is not it. ...Rottweilers are among the top three breeds for lethal attacks (sorry, but anyone who has owned a Rott can tell you there are few dogs around who are bigger sucks - also in the Working Group are Bernese Mountain Dogs, Boxers, Bullmastiffs, Great Danes, Mastiffs, Newfoundlands, PWDs and Saint Bernards. I'm sorry... not huggy kissy??)

- Some American Staffordshire Terriers, like their close cousins the Pit Bulls, can be unpredictably aggressive toward humans, going for years without incident andn then attacking a child seemingly out of the blue. (I'll let Staff/Pit owners respond to THIS gem)

- Cavalier King Charles Spaniels... tend to be super friendly and sociable but can be a bit compulsive. For instance, some bite at imaginary flies, and some dogs lick compulsively. (For those of you who don't know, this behaviour can be attributed to syringomyelia, a condition where the skull is too small for the brain - this disorder is reported to be rampant in the breed and can easily be tested for. One would think such a "specialist" would have this information.)

- Ironically, claims of overvaccination have led to rigorous scientific inquiry about whether dogs require a DHLPP booster every year once they reach adulthood. The answer: No. But it has nothing to do with risks from the vaccine. It's simply that researchers have discovered that immunity from the booster remains adequate for three years. (Try telling this to someone whose cat has lost a limb due to rabies vax-induced cancer).

- If it's unclear whether an older dog has been vaccinated, don't hedge your bets. Make sure she gets a DHLPP booster and a rabies shot. You don't have to worry: double shots WILL NOT PRESENT A HEALTH RISK (emphasis added)

- A raw food diet is not nutritionally balanced either. And preparing your pets meals over the stove is a risky business at best and a setup for serious nutrient deficiencies at worst.

- Lab produced preservatives have been blamed for everything from canine cancer, kidney disease, and pancreatic disease to arthritis, hair loss and blindness. No proof of such harm has ever been scientifically documented. Even a synthetic preservative called ethoxyquin, which appears to cause the most concern... has never been found to be responsible for adverse health effects, even in well-conducted studies in which high doses were fed to dogs. (I don't even NEED to explain what's wrong with this statement...)

- A number of dog owners want to make their own puppy food because they are turned off by the idea of byproducts in dog food. They have a negative connotation translating roughly to "the junk that's not fit for humans to eat and therefore goes into pet food." It's not true. In fact, ingredients used as byproducts in the US are often considered delicacies elsewhere... Simply put, byproducts are the nonmuscle meat of an animal, largely the organs, including the liver and spleen. And they are rich in nutrients. If your dog's food has byproducts, you don't have to worry that your pup is not eating well. (again, no comment necessary)

These are the so-called "expert" opinions of Nicholas Dodman.

Dogs with degenerative brain diseases are treated as behavioural cases, breeds are stereotyped in the worst way (it's one thing to say most retrievers retrieve, or most hounds howl, but to say that staffs/pits/rotts are aggressive and leave out any mention of breeding/nurture is irresponsible/ignorant), natural feeding is knocked on every page (he even puts down "organic" "naturally preserved" etc) and by-products, preservatives and copious vaccinations are touted not only as safe, but RECOMMENDED.

Pardon if I don't fall over myself to drink his next jug of kool-aid.

bendyfoot
February 11th, 2009, 12:25 PM
Pardon if I don't fall over myself to drink his next jug of kool-aid.

I think I love you.:laughing:

babysweet
February 11th, 2009, 12:34 PM
:wall:

Admittedly, I get a little frustrated when these "experts" who have been in the field for 20+ years haven't changed their mantra a single iota.

New information is seeing the light EVERY DAY, and I consider it a complete waste if I don't learn something new or get set on a new investigative path at least daily.

Part of being a good researcher/scientist/professional of any kind is the ability to learn from experience and the experiences of others. In fact, I would say it is the defining ability.

I don't generally have a polarized opinion one way or another about anything... like I said, the science changes almost daily. But I do have a common sense approach that says that when we feed mice the equivalent doses of BHA/BHT that are in people food items and they birthed babies lacking EYES - that perhaps common sense says err on the side of caution.

Mmmm... maybe it's just me? :rolleyes:

bendyfoot
February 11th, 2009, 12:46 PM
Nope, not just you.:D (did you notice I'm Geek Club Prez? I can offer you an Executive VP position if you'd like :D:laughing:) Love the quote in your siggy. :thumbs up

Chris21711
February 11th, 2009, 01:19 PM
(did you notice I'm Geek Club Prez? I can offer you an Executive VP position if you'd like :D:laughing:)

You will have to run that by the board first Bendy :laughing:

bendyfoot
February 11th, 2009, 01:27 PM
As Prez I can do whatever I want http://planetsmilies.net/tongue-smiley-8862.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)

bendyfoot
February 11th, 2009, 01:30 PM
although I may have already given that job to one or two other people already... http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-confused010.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

Chris21711
February 11th, 2009, 01:44 PM
As Prez I can do whatever I want http://planetsmilies.net/tongue-smiley-8862.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)

Right back at ya 48297

although I may have already given that job to one or two other people already... http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-confused010.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

So you throw those VP positions around left, right and centre just like hot cakes............hmm interesting

DoubleRR
February 11th, 2009, 01:46 PM
I think I love you.:laughing:

I think I do, too--both of u, as a matter of fact.:thumbs up

bendyfoot
February 11th, 2009, 02:01 PM
Right back at ya 48297

So you throw those VP positions around left, right and centre just like hot cakes............hmm interesting

Yes. Yes. I. Do. Wanna fight? http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/761_animated_boxing.gif (http://www.clipartof.com)


:laughing:

Blab
February 11th, 2009, 06:57 PM
Thanks for the great responses babysweet. I have to agree that if this is the only study that Victoria is basing her statment on I agree that its certainly stretching it to say that a high protein diet actually causes aggression. And loved the informative post on Dodman's opinions. :headslap:

The dog food review site knocked Organix down to 4 stars because its only 25% protein, but other sources, like Victoria's book, says that should be more than enough protein for a healthy dog. There certainly are plenty of contradictory opinions on the issue...

But on the organic issue, if the ingredients used are both good quality ingredients (and the dog food reviews site says they are in Organix) and certified organic then I am for it. Its no small expense to get food third party certified as organic as they have to prove to the certifier that their product and manufacturing process meets the standard. Personally I appreciate the effort to know that there is some oversight that the ingredients are wholesome, especially in dog foods that don’t have the same regulations as human food. It is, of course, impossible to say why there are so many pet allergies to some meat sources now and why so many dogs end up dying of cancers and such, but I’m thinking that I can at least try to ensure that that there is less bad stuff in the food (as well as, of course, good quality ingredients). Certified organic seems like a reasonable approach--it makes sense to me at least that food grown in nutrient rich and toxin free soil should produce healthy, nutrient-rich food.

Also in a personal correspondence with Organix they told me that all the chicken they use is also free range which means that I didn’t rescue Georgie only to cause animal suffering elsewhere.

Petcurean (Go! and Now!) and Champion (Arcana and Orijen) both certainly put in more meat and have terrific ingredients lists. But neither even say themselves that their ingredients are grown without poisons like pesticides or roundup, let alone all the other standards that need to be met to be certified as organic. Or give information about how humanely the animals used were treated. But since both are closer to where I live, if either decides to make a certified organic kibble that is grain free and uses only local, free range, and certified organic meat sources I would be the first to line up!

SuperWanda
February 12th, 2009, 12:59 PM
Just wanted to mention that the chicken Orijen uses is also free range. The turkey would be turkey meal and so I'm not sure from their website whether it is free range however it would be local along with their other ingredients.

I understand your concern for choosing healthy ingredients and environmentally sustainable farming practices. However there is a debate about organic purity and even a larger debate about organic vs local ingredients.

Digestibility should also be a factor. Certain proteins are far more digestible to a dog than others. Not sure what the ingredients are like in the Organix brand or what it's meat to grain ratio is, but it's something to consider as you end up paying more for expensive organic ingredients that basically go right through your dog.

Blab
February 12th, 2009, 04:30 PM
Yeah, I couldn't find information either about Orijen's named meat meals being free range and they didn't email me back when I asked. Also didn't respond to my question whether or not the salmon meal was from farmed salmon. I appreciate to hear though that they use local sources for ingredients. But Organix wrote me back and said that their chicken meat and meal is all free range and that the salmon meal is from wild salmon.

I think Organix also uses mostly local ingredients but am not positive. I'll have to check. The most local producer to me is Go! which offers the grain free kibble and supposedly also uses locally sourced ingredients and the dog food review site gives it 6 stars.

I hear you about the other ingredients. Organic or no I'd be happier if it was totally grain free--even though Organix adult canine forumla uses supposedly the most hypoallergenic grains (brown rice, barley and oatmeal), stated to be "good quality ingredients" on the dog food review site, but they call totally grain free foods like ther Go! "outstanding" and is likely more digestible...? I don't know about the ratio of meat (chicken and salmon) to carbs, only that it is 25% protein...

I also hear you that all organic certifiers aren't the same. Organix adult canine forumla is certified by the Organic Crop Improvement Association (http://www.ocia.org/Default.aspx) (OCIA)which seems pretty legit. They're accredited by the USDA and other agencies worldwide and their website says that thie certified food is "grown without genetically modified organisms (GMOs), and grown and processed without the use of synthetic chemicals, fertilizers, antibiotics, or hormones." To get certified by OCIA the producer needs to go through quite a procedure:
-No chemicals or non-natural fertilizers have been applied to fields, pastures, orchards, or vineyards for three years prior to harvest.
-Operations have been annually inspected by an independent inspector and are subject to unannounced verification inspections at any time.
-Detailed records of each operation’s practices and processes have been kept and submitted to OCIA International for an annual certification review.
-OCIA International is independently accredited to a number of industries and government bodies in the United States and internationally.

SuperWanda
February 12th, 2009, 06:33 PM
It's hard enough these days to feed ourselves let alone our pets isn't it! :frustrated:

I carry around a seafood quide in my wallet but still find it confusing as things are never labeled properly - even harder when you are buying pet food.

Organix sounds like it has good quality ingredients. I'll have to look - they must have a website?

I don't know if all grain-free foods would be more digestible. I should clarify my statements above because it sounds like I am promoting grain-free only - which I do feed, but I also supplement with fresh foods - and I do give my dogs grains. You'd have to compare the type of ingredients, their quality and the way the food is processed - low heat vs high heat for example.

Fresh meat will be more digestible then meat meal because the meal will be processed and cooked one more step in the process of making a dry dog food therefore reducing its digestibility (what happens when you cook a steak rare vs well-done - you will be able to digest the rare steak much more easily). But, you have to add meat meals to up the protein.

Same with grains - I think white rice is more digestible than brown rice but you get some extra nutrition from the brown rice. It all depends on what you want.

I have one dog with anal gland issues and insoluble fiber does wonders for her! I believe I also read something about oatmeal and how it helps to maintain blood glucose levels. So, grains aren't so bad, so long as they don't go overboard.

As for the meat:grain ratio, I personally like a meatier food. You'd have to calculate that or ask the manufacturer. If a food lists one meat followed by 3 grains, you can be certain that the grains far outweigh the meat, especially if the meat is fresh because it's weight will go down after processing removes the water.

Every one has a different opinion, so my advice would be to pick a food you are comfortable with based on the ingredients.

You can always add some fresh food of your own to compensate where you feel the food is lacking.

Blab
February 13th, 2009, 09:49 AM
It certainly is hard and time consuming to figure out food at all! I sure wish we labled our food better (GMOs etc). Good for you for trying on the seafood--we are certainly doing our best to kill our wild fishery on the West coast too.

Yeah, supplementing sounds like a good way to go. And glad to hear that about outmeal and fiber. I've just started supplementing a little but if I go Organix I'll likely up the eggs to give some good, fresh protein. I'm trying to give her good quality dog food because we just got her 3 weeks ago and she's only just over a year old and already had puppies, was eating dog chow when i picked her up (and no idea before that). Then noticed she was also just coming into heat and had some itching and foot chewing which can mean food allergies. So I've been trying to do my homework on food (this forum is great :highfive:), and my wife and i have been working on her comfort level as she is also pretty shy and scared. She's already coming around amazingly, but also still scratching/chewing a little.

The SPCA vet yesterday suggested to put her on Natual Balance hypoallergenic food for 3 months with no human food at all, but said it also could be allergies to what she was eating when we got her, or not allergies at all. So I think I'm going to hold off and see if she improves with a simple, good quality kibble and basic food first.

Oh and Organix is made by Castor & Pollux and the website is here (http://www.castorpolluxpet.com/store/organix/organix_adult_canine_formula).

SuperWanda
February 13th, 2009, 01:09 PM
Yes, like you said, it could take some time for allergies from the old food to get out of her system. Possibly her immune system is down as well not knowing exactly what she has been through.

Your plan to try good quality kibble and basic foods sounds like a good idea. You can always experiment with grain-free vs. chicken vs fish to try and pinpoint the problem.

One of my dogs has allergies but they seem to be seasonal. Once the pollen starts flying she chews at her feet but in the winter she's fine. I have also found that the allergies have lessened to some degree since changing her diet and perhaps boosting her immunity so a better quality food does help in many ways.

I think the Organix looks fine. Don't think you can go wrong feeding a good quality food and adding some fresh foods of your choosing!

I have two humane society specials myself - one with some separation anxiety (still at age 10) but she has really improved. It sound like you are well on your way to providing a secure and healthy home for her so I'm sure with time she will continue to adjust.

Blab
March 3rd, 2009, 10:48 AM
Just realized I forgot to respond to this! But it gives me an excuse to do an update

First thanks for the kind words on the separation anxiety and thanks for sharing your experience. After about 6 weeks Georgie is really relaxing, sometimes will even choose to go into the living room to sleep on the couch now and she is less frightened when she meets people, especially kids.

I'm still debating between local or organic but Georgie seems like she's already chosen for me. Go! is made locally and there was a 40% off sale on the Grain Free and I couldn't resist trying a small bag--and she loves it. No transition problems at all, and gone is the absolute killer fish breath she got from Orijen fish :yuck:. And best yet she seems to have finally slowed on the allergy symptoms of scratching and chewing feet but that could be more related to the switch off dog chow and who knows what all 1.5 months ago.

auntielola
March 9th, 2009, 03:02 PM
It was on their approved list but isn't now....
I'm so stuck on what to do for my puppy. I think Canidae will be my next trial. It WASNT recommended for my large breed puppy by the pet food store woman though. odd. ? Input?
We were on blue buffalo but he got diarrhea and now he's on performatrin ultra. We can't get a lot of these foods here in Canada though, esp coz i'm in a small town in Muskoka, Ontario
1:shrug: