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Two food related questions

pwrca
January 29th, 2009, 07:21 AM
!st. Last night while at the Pet Store, I had gone to pick up Orijen puppy food for when my puppy comes home next week; Orijen seems to be a highly recommended. I was given a sample pack of CaniSource which is a CDN product; the ingredient list is:


Fresh Beef
white rice
whole barley
rolled oats
fresh apples
fresh carrots
fresh eggs
ground flax
herb mix
garlic
vitamins
and minderals


Based on what I've been reading, appears to be a healthy diet. Would experienced dog owners recommend or find this comparible to Orijen? The problem for me was that they did not have a puppy specific formula, in either brands Orijen or CaniSource.

2nd. Is it essential that a puppy be feed a specfic puppy formula dog food? The women at the Pet Store, who came accross as very dog savy said that there really wasn't much difference between puppy and adult food. If I remember correctly I believe she said that puppy food contained a higher protien and vitamin levels. So, is it OK to go directly to the regular adult formula?

Mooshie will be coming home next week and I want to ensure he is on a quality right food source. I know that the breeder feeds with Royal Canin puppy formula but from what I have been reading in general and what I've been told from this forum; Royal Canin is not the best of diets. I know that if I plan to change Mooshie's diet, it has to be a gradual transition. By the way Mooshie is a mini-short hair Daschund and he will be eight wks old when he comes home.

scathach
January 29th, 2009, 08:15 AM
orijen has a puppy mix.... Georges was on it... they even have 2 one normal and one for large breed. Maybe the store was out of it?

CaniSource has grain in it but no chicken. You're going to have to try it. If you want to go grain free take Orijen. Keep in mind that your dog can developp allergy. Georges did and is now on a fish mix since we think it's a chicken allergy... but it can be a grain one cuz his treats had some. We disn't had time yet to go get Orijen fish.

Anyway good luck with your puppy! :thumbs up And can we know what breed you'll get?

pwrca
January 29th, 2009, 08:23 AM
Mooshie, is a male, mini-short hair Daschund.

scathach
January 29th, 2009, 08:29 AM
awwwwwwwwww cute! i would have love one but to much stairs in and around the house :shrug:

kandy
January 29th, 2009, 10:50 AM
From the ingredient list, it looks like this food doesn't have much meat to it. Since fresh beef is what you listed first, I'm guessing that was first on the ingredient list. Problem is that 'fresh beef' contains water. Once the water is gone during processing, white rice becomes the predominant ingredient. If the ingredients are listed in the same order as what you've posted, I'd say the food is grain heavy. JMO.

Looking at their website, the ingredient list is actually pretty vague. For instance, what is "herb mix"?? I don't see a nutrient analysis at all. I hope the packaging itself has more information.

scathach
January 29th, 2009, 12:11 PM
not a high pourcentage of proteins either! only 22%, Orijen has 42% which means you have to gave less food for your dog to be full!

zomo
January 29th, 2009, 12:31 PM
I don't know if they gave you the price of Canisource but I would check that out. IMO Orijen would be the better choice of the two.

rainbow
January 29th, 2009, 01:39 PM
From the ingredient list, it looks like this food doesn't have much meat to it. Since fresh beef is what you listed first, I'm guessing that was first on the ingredient list. Problem is that 'fresh beef' contains water. Once the water is gone during processing, white rice becomes the predominant ingredient. If the ingredients are listed in the same order as what you've posted, I'd say the food is grain heavy. JMO.

Looking at their website, the ingredient list is actually pretty vague. For instance, what is "herb mix"?? I don't see a nutrient analysis at all. I hope the packaging itself has more information.


I agree with kandy and would definitely choose the Orijen Puppy.

And, you should always feed a puppy formula or else one that says "all life stages".

Check out the dog food information at www.dogaware.com .....also www.dogfoodproject has excellent information as well.

RetrieverGirl41
January 29th, 2009, 01:52 PM
in Canisource.

Definitely feed Orijen....

katiebear
February 6th, 2009, 08:34 AM
From the ingredient list, it looks like this food doesn't have much meat to it. Since fresh beef is what you listed first, I'm guessing that was first on the ingredient list. Problem is that 'fresh beef' contains water. Once the water is gone during processing, white rice becomes the predominant ingredient. If the ingredients are listed in the same order as what you've posted, I'd say the food is grain heavy. JMO.

Looking at their website, the ingredient list is actually pretty vague. For instance, what is "herb mix"?? I don't see a nutrient analysis at all. I hope the packaging itself has more information.

I feed CaniSource to Katie (and have been for two years now) and feel it is definitely better for the following reasons - first of all - it is 70% beef and only 15% grains combined (rice, oats, & barley) so the comment of white rice being the main ingredient is totally incorrect. The food does not use any meals so NO ingredient is processed at a high temperature. Orijen uses 50% of the meat in a meal form which is a highly processed ingredient. Plus CaniSource uses only ingredients fit for human consumption - Orijen does not. I feel much better knowing that there are no expired or contaminated ingredients in her food that I, myself would never eat. Truthfully, a raw diet would be the best but I don't have the time or expertise to do this - CaniSource is a dehydrated raw diet so it is the best of both worlds for me.
Regarding puppy formulas - they exist because typical processing removes so many nutrients that they add back what is missing - it is mostly a marketing ploy - with a food such as CaniSource (or feeding raw) the original nutrients are present so the dog will take out of it what it needs. For this reason, there is no need for breed or age specific formulas.
Oh, I should comment that since Katie has been on CaniSource, her teeth have cleaned right up, her breath is great, and there is no body odour. She's never left a kibble in her bowl (which she would never finish a bag of dog food before - we always had to change her food) and for a 10 year old, she has more energy and vitality than she did at 5 years old. We also noticed a HUGE improvement in her seasonal allergies!! :thumbs up It's the only food for us.

corky/max
February 6th, 2009, 10:25 AM
:2cents:The only good 'stuff' to feed your dog(puppy) is a raw meaty bones diet and no!, he is not too young! Anything cooked (esp. commercial dog food)--even home cooked is not good--but better than crappy dogfood). When food is cooked--all the live enzymes are gone and your dog needs them to have a healthy immune system. If he never has any raw food w/the enzymes--he will eventually use up what enzymes he was born with and this compromises the immune system and 'opens up' the way for not being able to fight off diseases and bad health. (dogs don't have much chance--I feel so bad for them) Not only not feeding right, but too many shots--esp. rabies also weaken their system--and then there are the dangerous drugs that they are given like Rimadyl, Prednisone, Proin, etc.--my god!!) Did you know that a dog should live about ten years longer if properly taken care of!! Sorry, but I love dogs so much I can't help it!! And about grains--bad for dogs-they cannot digest them and they cause allergies in a lot of dogs--all that scratching and itching.--Corn is the worst, followed by wheat. The only grain I will use is oatmeal which is the best of the lot--and actually no grains is best. My dogs get this occasionally esp. if I want to give them a nice warm breakfast on a cold day. It took me about 8-9 years to finally figure everything out--although I was feeding a home-cooked meal almost frm the beginning--like I said that still isn't good enough! There is so much more I could say here--I just can't do it---But please everyone put words in your browser like---raw diet for dogs; feeding raw/dogs; switching to raw, etc.-- also learn about enzymes. I only wish it hadn't taken me so long to get this down 'pat'. My dogs are now 10 and 11 yrs old and a lot of damage has been done! One dog is due for his 5th Rabies shot and I'm very afraid to have to do this--I feel like I will be seeing him being injected w/poison (and that is what it really is) and because of the d_ _n law I can't do anything about it----Yes, also put words: rabies vaccine-adverse reactions in your browser. Please everybody do a lot of studying on what I have written here--esp. because you love your dog!! Do not take the word as gospel on what your vet says either--study for yourself---and please be aware of what can happen if your dog has a reaction to vaccinations--can be life-threatening and very fast--if allergic reaction--may die if breathing is compromised before you can get him back to vet for a shot for the allergic reaction. Vets are (most of them) either too greedy, don't really care, don't take the time-esp. to even tell you about the possibility of these reactions, and I have to say it like it is-ignorant esp concerning shots--If something happens to your dog and you know it has to do w/a shot-esp. rabies--they will try and blame it on something else (and your dog can have reactions like agression, sick,etc. even 6 mons. or more down the road--and it has also put a permanent stress on the immune system--weakening it.---Or they will just turn their head. After all their schooling is sponsered by greedy dog food co., pharmacutical co.etc. I could go on and on but it would take way too much time and space here to do that--------just learn-study--You love your dog and want what is best for it. And when I take my Corky for that Rabies shot--I'm going to sit at the vet's for a good hr just to make sure he is not going to have an immediate reaction ----Even though he has had 4 of these shots before w/no immediate reaction doesn't mean it can't happen now--His immune system may of had to much to deal w/by now and have no defense(so to speak)

Came back here to add: Commercial dog food in general is mostly made up of cheap grains--and that is also usually the stuff that is not good enough for human consumption (everything boils down to greed (dog food companies)
Also please look up (words in your browser) whats in commercial dog food etc.

And last but not least--Put yourself in your dog's place---How would you like to eat that unhealthy stale commercial dog food day in and day out---and yes they may not refuse it--what else can they do--starve!! Euthenized animals w/the poison frm the 'put to sleep" drug (and it has been checked out) is put in dog food and this dogfood has been found to contain moldy grains(toxic) salmonella , even roadkill, and then there has been dog chains(collars) and much more unfit stuff---like I said --look it up and do some intense studying.

Chris21711
February 6th, 2009, 11:20 AM
Euthenized animals w/the poison frm the 'put to sleep" drug (and it has been checked out) is put in dog food and this dogfood has been found to contain moldy grains(toxic) salmonella , even roadkill, and then there has been dog chains(collars) and much more unfit stuff---like I said --look it up and do some intense studying.[/QUOTE]

Corky/Max

Several pet food companies only use human grade ingredients, Orijen is one of them.

katiebear
February 6th, 2009, 11:46 AM
Several pet food companies only use human grade ingredients, Orijen is one of them.

Corky/Max


Just to clarify - Orijen does use human grade fresh meat - but makes no claim to the rest of the ingredients that go into it. So to say they use ONLY human grade ingredients is incorrect. (Also see my posting above regarding difference between human-grade and for human consumption) Half of the meat content in Orijen is from meal which is a highly processed ingredient. They receive the meal from a 3rd party and thus lose some control of what constitutes that ingredient (things could be in there that they don't even know about). I have researched pet foods in depth and it's my opinion that meals should be steered clear of. Fresh is best! Aside from that - Orijen is still one of the better foods on the market and is head and shoulders above typical commercial dog food.

corky/max
February 6th, 2009, 11:50 AM
You are right, of course--there are some better dog foods out there (a small minority) But these "good' ones still have no live enzymes--because they are cooked and the majority still have too many grains! Sorry--I still stand by what else I've said here. Please check things out--and I know raw meat and bones are scary and right now you think messy and too much work, but it is not that bad--you will find answers to a lot of things here;
http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm I hope this works--in posting (at least in another dog forum--I love dogs.com--sometimes the web address changes after getting it posted and sometimes you then can't bring them up-That is why I didn't put this address in my last post here--but will try now. If it doesn't work will try again later! Another one I will try now--
http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/VACREACT.HTM

Hooray, just checked these addresses out on here and they work!!

Chris21711
February 6th, 2009, 11:51 AM
Oy, mea culpa :o

corky/max
February 6th, 2009, 12:10 PM
Oy, mea culpa :o


:confused:Sorry, don't understand this??

katiebear
February 6th, 2009, 12:53 PM
Mea culpa pretty much means "my bad"

corky/max
February 6th, 2009, 03:20 PM
Mea culpa pretty much means "my bad"

Thanks for the answer,Katiebear, Sorry to say it still doesn't make much sense to me! I only speak ENGLISH!!

SuperWanda
February 6th, 2009, 04:08 PM
I was just checking out the CaniSource website - can't see where it says 70% meat there but it looks like a decent food if they do include a good percentage of meat. You also have to ask the company if that is the % before or after dehydration because that also makes a difference. I will have to e-mail them as I would be interested in knowing how it all breaks down and if they will be selling it here.

I feed the Orijen to both my dogs and have been very happy with the food. I will ask them about their meat meals but I believe they are also human grade according to their website FAQ:
http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/faq/

Q: MEAT QUALITY: Are ORIJEN meats human grade?

A: Yes. All ORIJEN fresh meats (chicken, fish, turkey, eggs) are of table quality. Chicken, fish and turkey meals are produced exclusively from animals that are certified as fit for human consumption by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA).

They are great for answering any questions so I figure why speculate?

I also prepare meals for my dogs as I would for myself - they get the raw foods that I might eat (with the exception of most veggies although they have an occasional raw carrot or apple) or a yummy seared steak now and again. There are many views on feeding and "what is best" so you just have to do your own research and figure out what that is for your individual situation and pets!

Sujaki
February 7th, 2009, 07:39 AM
Another thing to consider is that if a company has such focus on producing high quality food and spends so much money on bringing in fresh meats and eggs from Alberta Egg Producers or Chicken Producers or whatever, they'd pretty much kill it if they used a low grade meal.
I doubt they'd want to save a few bucks using low quality meal, when they'd already spent so much.

Also...
"Chicken, fish and turkey meals are produced exclusively from animals that are certified as fit for human consumption by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA)."

Thats produced from animals that ARE, not WERE. Technically, that should mean that at the time of turning it into meal, it was fit for human consumption and checked. However, they could of course be sneaky and think no one would notice this. But I really cannot think of them as a sneaky company. And yes, CaniSource says approved, so thats fine.

And while Orijen does say that their fresh meats are only FIT, not CERTIFIED, for human consumption, their meals, before processing, are certified. I think that can clue you in on the actual quality of the fresh meats.
And fresh should mean fresh, not "has no preservatives and is not frozen but is actually rotten". Unless of course, this them playing with words. But you know what, they get their chickens straight from a producer in Alberta- basically, the real source. And that is technically close to their plant, so I don't see why it would be rotting.

But anyway, pwrca, try both and see what works best for your dog. Give each food a try a month or two, unless you notice problems.

SuperWanda
February 7th, 2009, 09:12 AM
pwrca - Just curious to know how you like your sample of Canisource? or, more importantly how your puppy likes it? - or maybe you do not have him home yet?

I am curious about this food myself so Have e-mailed the company with a few questions.

http://www.canisource.com/CANISOURCE/english/ingredients.htm

They state on their website that 100% of their ingredients are accepted for human consumption - not sure what this means? Does it mean it is certified? Is the Canadian Food Inspection Agency involved?

I also asked what is contained in their herb mix?

Where they get their ingredients?

How much meat is in their foood specifically the meat:grain ratio after dehydration.

I'll let you know what the response is.

Chris21711
February 7th, 2009, 04:49 PM
Thanks for the answer,Katiebear, Sorry to say it still doesn't make much sense to me! I only speak ENGLISH!!

Fortunately I speak more languages other than English. "Mea Culpa" is Latin for 'my fault' or 'my own fault', it's just one of those sayings I picked up ambling through life, no doubt I have been ambling longer than you :laughing:

corky/max
February 8th, 2009, 02:59 PM
Fortunately I speak more languages other than English. "Mea Culpa" is Latin for 'my fault' or 'my own fault', it's just one of those sayings I picked up ambling through life, no doubt I have been ambling longer than you :laughing:

Gee-lol (that's not good English either)! Gee, I thought you were 'miffed-mad at me !! Glad to hear from you and that you aren't. Lol--don't understand what some of these symbols stand for either---you really would of been mad at me if I left the symbol in that I had put here--thought it meant 'heads up' or 'way to go',etc.---instead it meant loser!!--so will try this one--:goodvibes:

Etown_Chick
February 8th, 2009, 06:55 PM
I agree about the enzymes. Orijen is cooked at low temp but it's still cooked (it's what I feed). Scruffy also gets raw fruit/veg to snack on for that reason.