Pets.ca - Pet forum for dogs cats and humans 

-->

Cooked diet for Mini Schnauzer prone to bladder stones?

RemRem
January 26th, 2009, 10:23 AM
Would anyone have any menu suggestions for a cooked diet for my miniature schnauzer who may be developing bladder stones. He's previously been on only dry food, which I have discovered unfortunately was not of the best quality. Vet says he should really be on a moist diet to increase his water intake. I've looked into some of the better commercial brands of canned food, and based on the ingredients it looks like I could surely cook him up something at home as good or better! I did do a couple of basic recipes one with poached chicken breast and other with ground beef, mixing 1/2 meat with 1/3 cooked brown rice and a small handful of oatmeal and frozen mixed veggies thrown in and cooked together. I'm looking for any recommendations for any different ingredients or additives or ingredients to avoid, especially for his urinary condition. Thanks!

spottydog
February 4th, 2009, 08:44 PM
Hm your diet sounds pretty good! My in-laws mini schnauzer had the same problem, apparently dals and schnauzers are very susceptible to stones. They went on a prescription diet but from the bits of research we did this is what I have on hand:

- balanced diet that's not too high in protein and low in purines. So veg, brown rice and potatoes are good. So are eggs. No high protein BARF diets.
- Lots of water to raise Ph levels
- Make sure you change your dogs treats. Fruit like apples make good treats.
- Protein is good but avoid organ meats as they are supposedly high in purines
- do check with your vet about suitable diet and supplements

Found some links which may help if you haven't already read them:
http://www.aplus-flint-river-ranch.com/article-healthydalmatiandiet.php
http://www.geocities.com/sommersprasse.geo/stone-forming.htm

MerlinsHope
February 26th, 2009, 12:59 PM
If you dog has a propensity to have kidney stones and bladder stones you have to be wary of any foods high in phosphorous, oxylates and purines, as those are the three prime culprits of developing stones with emphasis on oxylates. Your dog needs protein, and it is not protein that causes the problem.

Foods low in phosphorous are generally quality muscle meats.

Foods high in phosphorous are fatty fish, organ meats and fruit/vegetable matter and should be avoided at all costs ( so no salmon, fish oils, and vegetables high in phosphorous such as sweet potatoes)

To help yourself you can follow the food guide set forth by the Kidney Foundation
Their website offers valuable food choices that are considered safe for humans with kidney disease.
Albeit you are not feeding a human, it would still be a good tool for you to use as a guideline.
Check out their website for appropriate foods.


Foods high in oxylates are 'greens", (kale/spinach/collards) etc.and also should be avoided

If your dog is enzyme dificient for purines, then you really have to be careful with almost any protein source, but I've read that this doesn't affect most breeds, other than perhaps dalmatians.

Water does not alter the pH in your dog's gut ( sorry to the person who mentioned this). Water DOES lubricate your dog's gut and allows for better digestion throughout the colon and eases the burden on the kidneys and bladder by diluting the concentration of minerals, and dilutes the amount of uric acid in the blood system, but it does not alter the pH, ( well ok.. if it dilutes the uric acid, then I guess you could say in a manner of speaking that it alters pH).

Beware of the oxylates and also depending on where you live, if you are on well water, you may want to consider offering bottled water. Well water is very high in mineral content that certainly could contribute to stones.

I'm not one for fruits because they are too high in sugars, which act as irritants inside the dog, can lead to other issues as well, so personally I really don't endorse the use of them, especially in a dog with pre-existing problems or on medication of any kind. Another ingredient to be wary of are foods that contain high amounts of salts and lots of commercial food companies add salt as a flavour enhancer. This definiately will not help your dog's situation.

You migh also want to check out this site:
http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html

While I realize that your dog isn't a kidney dog, much of the information contained therein has merit for a dog prone to bladder stones.

I'm sure you can easily create meals at home for your dog.

Cheers
MM

SnowDancer
February 26th, 2009, 01:54 PM
Did you vet suggest a specific food? If she/he did it would no doubt be the appropriate Hill's formula for the type of stones your dog is developing. My guy had to have the c/d formula - looked like white lard in can - but it did the trick. He was eventually able to resume his normal gourmet diet (he was a Dachshund). My current dog - an American Eskimo - is also a breed prone to stones, but so far so good. But should he start to develop them I would go the Hill's route for a start - because it worked for me before. I like Hill's for this problem - and also Hill's i/d for upset tummies. Other than that it is Fromms Four Star.

corky/max
February 26th, 2009, 04:36 PM
I'm hoping you know which kind they are because it makes a difference in the way you would treat them Most bladder stones are struvites (magnesium ammonium phosphate) They form in an alkaline urine and are usually preceded by a bladder infection. The bacteria and urinary sediment form a nidus around which the ammonium phosphate is deposited.
Uric acid stones form in an acid urine, and are frequently associated with inherited alterations in urate metabolism. Other stones are calcium oxalate and cystine stones. Silica stones are rare; they most often occur in male German Shepards. These stones are usually not associated with a pre-existing bladder infection. (And according to my Vet book there is an increased incidence for that breed Minature Schnauzer to develop bladder stones. I'm not referring to the rare Silica stones here--Just mean bladder stones in general!)
Struvite stones dissolve in an acid urine low in magnesium and protein--Now that is what it says in my book! But a more recent statement I saw says--- as far as the magnesium--you need magnesium that has an acid base like magnesium chloride or magnesium sulfate or 2 pinches of Epsom Salts. Uric acid stones respond to a low purine diet, along with the drug allopurinol. Cystine stones also respond to Hill's u/d, along with drugs that dissolve cystine. It also mentioned using the Hill's u/d for the uric stones as well. I don't like mentioning these Hill's prescription dog foods as I don't trust them but it is stated here so am adding it FYI. It also stated to feed Hill's Prescription Diet s/d for the struvite stones. NOTE--This last Hill's has s/d not the u/d mentioned further above! There are no available methods for dissolving calcium oxalate and silica stones. (Want to inform you on this Vet Book that I am quoting from---The book is titled DOG OWNER'S HOME VETERINARY HANDBOOK---It is the 3rd editon--copyrighted in yr.2000--more than 600,000 copies sold Authors: James M Giffin, MD & Liisa (yes 2-i's!!) D.
Carlson, DVM This is a very good book but there are prob. newer editions now--maybe some newer info but think most things are pretty basic).
Surgical removal is the treatment of choice for urethral stones causing obstruction and for bladder stones that fail to respond to dissolution. Surgery is also indicated when medical treatment is contraindicated because of CONGESTIVE HEART FAILURE, or WHEN THERE IS NEED FOR A MORE RAPID RESOLUTION OF SYMPTOMS.
The formation of new stones occurs in up to 30 percent of cases. The dog should be seen and checked at regular intervals.---End of quotes.
I might be able to give you some suggestions on what to feed and what not to feed---esp. on veggies---There are some veggies that can contribute to certain kinds of stones forming--IF you can tell me what kind of stones these are??!! Let me know and will try to give you as much info as I can! My dogs have had a few minor run-ins with some stones--and I feed a pretty much raw diet and raw fresh 'pulped' veggies---and I was feeding too much of certain veggies to do w/this problem. FINAL NOTE: Just be aware that all stones are not treated the same!

MerlinsHope
February 26th, 2009, 07:17 PM
FINAL NOTE: Just be aware that all stones are not treated the same!

Too true enough!
Thanks for the good heads up!
MM
:)