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Pros and Cons/ problems with breeding.

14+kitties
January 11th, 2009, 10:58 PM
Let me just preface this by saying: Pets.ca is not a pro s/n board. However most of the people who make up the forum ARE very pro spay/neuter. We tend to be very straight forward and to the point with people who come on asking breeding questions as we do not feel it is necessary to add to the overpopulation of animals. At this moment there are millions of cats and dogs a year being euthanized; some not very humanely. Unless you can truly in your heart justify wanting to breed your animal, please think twice. If you think twice and still decide to do it then please……. Think again.

Ethical breeders do not need to come to a forum of this type to ask breeding questions. They simply know how to handle the problems that can and do arise. Breeding is NOT a simple matter of putting together two animals and hoping everything works out. Ethical breeders can tell you that.
This is my attempt to help. Hopefully when you do your research you will decide to not be part of the problem but to be part of the solution. This information is mainly about dogs. It works this way for cats as well.
I will give some information and include some good sites for further reading. If any of our members would like to add information to this or add some sites please feel free.

This article was taken from:

http://dogs.about.com/cs/generalcare/p/no_breeding.htm
Why People Want To Breed Dogs, And Why They Shouldn't
Almost everybody loves puppies. Who could resist that sweet puppy breath or soft, downy fur?

Unfortunately, when it comes to dog breeding, a love of puppies is simply not enough to breed your dog. Hundreds of puppies are born every day, and hundreds of adorable puppies are put to sleep in shelters across North America. We have a serious pet overpopulation problem right now.

The Reasons People Want to Breed Their Dogs:
• I want another one just like my dog.
• I want to make money.
• I want my children to witness the miracle of birth.
• Puppies are cute, there's always people who want puppies.

The Reasons People Should NOT Breed Their Dogs:

• I want another one just like my dog.
This never works according to plan. When a dog gets pregnant, the puppies will take the father's traits, personality, and physical, and the mother's traits, and mix them up, taking some of one, some of another, and developing their own altogether. You will never get a perfect match. In stead you may end up with the worst traits of both dogs.
Even cloning a dog has proven that while a genetic match is possible, looks and temperament are still in the hands of Fate.

• I want to make money.
I can't believe people can still think they can make money off of puppies. The cost of breeding will overshadow any profits you think to make. The puppies need their first shots before going to their new homes, the mother needs frequent check-ups, and heaven forbid if something goes wrong. And something always goes wrong.
• I want my children to witness the miracle of birth.
This "miracle" can now be easily viewed by both children and adults thanks to such wonderful programming as "A Baby Story" and "Maternity Ward", both available on cable television.

Not only that, but how much of a "miracle" will your child be seeing if your beloved pet dies halfway through delivery?

• Puppies are cute, there's always people who want puppies.
No, unfortunately this is the most ignorant assumption made these days. Not everybody wants puppies. Hundreds die everyday because of the lack of homes. How heartbreaking to hold a twelve week old puppy and put her to sleep because somebody thought for sure there would be somebody else who wanted her.
For every puppy born, three die in shelters. There are too many out there and not enough homes for them all.

If this is not enough reasons to stop you from breeding your dog, then here are a few more:

Complications in birth and pregnancies happen all the time. You could face losing your dog to death, and all the puppies with her. Will YOU pay the $1200.00 for a much-needed emergency cesarean section when she cannot deliver the pups?
What about sexually-transmitted diseases? That stud dog you had picked out may have one. They are more common than you think.

How about genetic diseases? They abound.

Breeding is not a careless affair, it is so much more than bringing bitch and stud together during a heat cycle.

Please think it over carefully.


More web sites to check out. Please read carefully. There is a lot of very useful information both pro and con.

http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/breeding.html

http://www.thepetcenter.com/gen/dbb.html

14+kitties
January 11th, 2009, 11:56 PM
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeding/breeder2.html

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeding/breeder3.html

And then please watch this video:

http://www.brightlion.com/InHope/InHope_en.aspx

TeriM
January 11th, 2009, 11:58 PM
may I also add to your excellent post :thumbs up.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE read all these links and help make an informed opinion.

Should I breed my dog?
Here are some good links for those who are looking to breed their dog
http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/breeding.html
http://www.nb.net/%7Ecollet/facts.htm
http://www.geocities.com/learntobreed/breedingfaq.html
http://hattrick-dals.home.att.net/Breeding.html

Why do people get so frustrated with people who are breeding their dogs? My breed doesn’t end up in shelters and are worth a lot of money.

http://www.petfinder.com Search your breed

Why are people referring to me as a Back yard breeder (BYB)?
http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/byb.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard_breeder
http://www.jlhweb.net/Boxermap/reputablebreeder.html
__________________

14+kitties
January 12th, 2009, 12:02 AM
Thank you TeriM. This is what I was hoping for. :thumbs up

luckypenny
January 12th, 2009, 12:32 AM
Excellent info ladies, thank you :thumbs up.

badger
January 12th, 2009, 04:31 AM
Maybe make this into a sticky? Although I would retain just Breeding Problems in the title, more people are likely to read it ;)

14+kitties
January 12th, 2009, 08:35 AM
Maybe make this into a sticky? Although I would retain just Breeding Problems in the title, more people are likely to read it ;)

I will contact Marko to see if he is interested in making this a sticky. Possibly change the title to Educational Breeding Problems?

aslan
January 12th, 2009, 08:49 AM
i had to add this link to it too.

www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=59824

aslan
January 12th, 2009, 09:20 AM
I've requested this thread be a sticky,,thank you ladies, keep the info coming.

Mat&Murph
January 12th, 2009, 10:18 AM
Great Post!!! Very informative!!!! I don't breed, would never even consider it but I learned a few things!! Thanks

14+kitties
January 13th, 2009, 01:25 PM
Some added info: Some of these problems are breed specific but that does not mean it will not happen to your much loved pet. Please take the time to go through each article. Read them all, learn them all. Then decide..........

http://www.dogpatch.org/sheltie/breeding.html

http://stason.org/TULARC/animals/dogs/breeding-faq/

http://dogplay.com/Breeding/ethics.html

Since a great deal of problems happen during delivery here is more information:

http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/pregnancybirthindogs/Pregnancy_Birth_in_Dogs_whelping_and_breeding_info rmation.htm

kathryn
January 15th, 2009, 11:19 PM
I can add some more to this thread.. I've been working on bringing up puppies from kill shelters to NJ. In New Jersey, only 8,000 dogs were euthanized last year in the entire state in all the shelters reporting.So with the ones not reporting we could say give or take 10,000 total. All of the animal control shelters were reporting though and of course they are going to have the greatest intake and most euthanized (in general).

Recently I witnessed a transport coming up from Georgia. All of the puppies (and a few dogs) on the transport would otherwise have been gassed, heartsticked, or just euthanized.

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/35/l_b5e1f8b0e8a243f995e2fe9233e04208.jpg
http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/24/l_f4c2a45b6df6464f99474ca57aa3bf37.jpg
http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/34/l_7447cb03d4dc4009a3e80986d36ba090.jpg

If you think it doesn't happen, think again. Playful little puppies and cuddly little kittens are euthanized EVERY DAY. It is estimated that every 3.3 seconds an animal is killed in the US because of pet overpopulation. In the time it's taken you to read this we would have a room full of dead bodies by now.


If you think because an animal is purebreed or anything like that it will never end up in a shelter, think again. I've seen purebreed persians, himalayans, chihuahuas, terriers, mastiffs, st. bernards, beagles,poodles .. etc etc.

Oh I should mention.. that would be JUST at MY ONE shelter ;) That's not including the other various ones I've seen on the internet and such.


That being said... just please spay and neuter. If you can't afford a one time operation for your pet then there's something wrong with that. I understand some vets charge a bundle but really, for the cost it takes to pay for litter after litter and the risks with pregnancies and all this put together... don't buy yourself those new pair of dress shoes and instead get your pet fixed.. please.

rainbow
January 15th, 2009, 11:53 PM
Excellent thread....I am so glad that it was made a sticky. :thumbs up


http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeding/breeder2.html

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeding/breeder3.html

And then please watch this video:

http://www.brightlion.com/InHope/InHope_en.aspx


Yes, I have posted those sites many times. Here is another from the same website...

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeder.html


As well as this one with lots of links to check out....

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeding.html

14+kitties
January 16th, 2009, 11:06 PM
:o Sorry Rainbow. I should have given you credit. Bad me!!

rainbow
January 17th, 2009, 12:38 AM
:o Sorry Rainbow. I should have given you credit. Bad me!!

:eek: OH NO......I wasn't looking for any credit at all. :eek:

You, and many others have posted really great informative information in alot of threads on this board. :thumbs up

I just hope that this thread helps to educate as many people as possible. :fingerscr :goodvibes:

erykah1310
January 17th, 2009, 10:09 AM
A little explanation of ethical breeders as well as ethical buyers ( which IMO is just as important)
http://www.tibetanmastiffinfo.com/articles/Why-Be-Ethical.shtml

Please read and consider what you would do in each situation... there comes times where most of the horror stories will apply, either one of them or several. Are you prepared for it?
http://www.tibetanmastiffinfo.com/breeders/Tempted-Tibetan-Mastiff-Info.shtml
* Puppies need more than five minutes of your undivided attention.
* Puppies need to be stimulated, held, loved, spoken to & played with several times throughout the day.
* What we do as breeders is crucial to the temperament & trainability of the puppy for its entire lifetime.
* Puppies raised in garages, basements and barns as an "After Thought" for a little extra income can suffer lifelong problems as a result.
* When someone sees a hyper or ill tempered purebred, it is the REAL breeder who spends hours defending the breed we love.
* We also spend hours educating and consoling the buyer who had to relinquish their uncontrollable pet.
* In many cases, we are fostering & rehoming that pet. To be honest, I am tired of cleaning up a few other "breeder's" messes.
* The "breeder" who sold the puppy through the classifieds has changed their phone number or can't help the buyer now because "They Are Not Really Breeders" and "This Was Just A One Time Thing".... It's not that I don't want to help anyone ~ but there are only so many hours in the day.
* I don't want one of my buyers to be the next irresponsible breeder selling puppies through the classifieds and more importantly, I don't want one of my puppies to be the mother of the litter advertised in that ad.
* Unless you are prepared to take back any puppy you produce for any reason, at any time....You should not breed even one litter.
* Do you have the room, the time, the patience, the finances?
* It is not easy and it is not always profitable.
* It can be very costly.
* While you may want to produce "just one litter" because all your friends & relatives LOVE your dog.... and want a puppy "just like her", one emergency vet visit can leave you in the red.
* Those same friends & relatives usually find an excuse for not wanting the puppy once it becomes available.
* When you have puppies to place at the age of 7 weeks ~ believe me, you will be in a panic & feel desperate. Ten 7 week old puppies can be difficult to deal with if you aren't prepared.
* If you are having your first litter ~ Trust me...You won't be prepared.
* I really hate to be this graphic, but there is no other way to get my point across. I recently received a call from a person wanting to know if their dog could be in labor.
* I ask if the female's temperature had dropped. The response was "I don't know." I ask her to take her dog's temperature - and after telling her "how" to take it... the voice on the other end of the phone said "EEEEWWWWWW" Believe me, you will be doing much worse things than inserting a thermometer in the dog's rectum. If it makes you squeamish....you should not become a breeder. If you call me on the phone to ask if your female could be ready to breed and I ask you if her vulva is swollen... it would be in your best interest not to ask...."HER WHAT"??? If you do, you will probably hear a loud "Click". I am not interested in providing stud service for people who stammer & stutter when they hear the word "vulva". If you gasp & feel faint at the thought of wiping her with a tissue to let me know what color the discharge is..... Please spay your dog.
* Please, please, please THINK before you breed.... Heartbreaking things can happen during whelping. They still happen to me and they can also happen to you. Whelping females can get eclampsia during & after whelping and die. Do you know how to prevent it? Are you familiar with the symptoms?
* Puppies get stuck in the birth canal and die.
* It is often on a Sunday or in the middle of the night. Emergency C-sections are not cheap.
* What do you tell your children when you arrive home with no puppies?
* Even worse, what if their beloved Molly comes home as ashes in a cremation box?
* Whelping mothers can chew the cord too short on a puppy and the puppy can bleed to death right before your eyes.
* Puppies are sometimes born with their insides on the outside.
* Whelping mothers have been known to accidentally bite off a paw while chewing the cord or stimulating the puppy.
* Puppies can be born DEAD.
* Puppies can be born perfectly healthy and fade from "Fading Puppy Syndrome" for no apparent reason.
* What do you tell your children then?
* Puppies can die from cleft palettes, toxic milk, round worms, coccidia, giardia, parvo, distemper, upper respiratory infections...and the list goes on....Some mothers have no milk. Some mothers have bad milk.
* Are you prepared to bottle feed 10 puppies round the clock every few hours until they can drink formula from a dish? Do you know how to tube feed the small ones who are too weak to suck?
* Some puppies get colic....and you warm and rub their tummy's and walk the floor day & night praying for some sleep and listening to them cry in pain.
* What do you do with the puppies that don't survive in the middle of winter in a cold climate? Are you willing to work on a puppy that appears to be dead for twenty minutes to see if you can revive it? Are you able to emotionally handle it if you can't save it?
* Are you willing to suction mucus from a newborn puppy's nostrils using your own mouth if an emergency requires it?
* Do you know what after birth smells like? What about the mothers who retain puppies or placentas?
* They can get a severe infection and die on the operating table because you didn't know what signs to look for or how to give a shot of oxytocin.
* What will you do when a puppy is being born feet first already out of the sack, stuck in the birth canal, and the only way to get him out is to break his bones?
* Warm & Fuzzy??????
* You and your children have plenty of life's experiences to enjoy.
* Whelping is not one of them.
* It is not always the warm & fuzzy experience you are expecting.
* The things I've mentioned are some of the less graphic.
* What about studding out my male? Do your dog a huge favor and research brucellosis. If you think you can just put two dogs together and let nature take over ~ you need to think again.
* It's a bit more complicated than that.
* Have you ever seen a male that had a huge portion of his face destroyed by a female who was not ready to be bred?
* I have & it's not a pretty sight.
* Is it worth it for that one time stud fee?
* Do you REALLY want to breed your dog? Good luck.

~~author unknown~~

14+kitties
January 17th, 2009, 04:20 PM
Just wanted to add this thread.....

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=59911

The more we educate the better.

totallyhip
January 17th, 2009, 04:53 PM
Just wanted to say excellent post! With my volunteer rescue experience I have come across many sad sad stories. It breaks my heart every time. There are so many dogs that we have been able to save from euthanization. But yet so many more that we can not. I was talking to a lady at a shelter in CA and she says it KILLS her everytime she has to decide which dogs to euthanize. I just couldn't imagine having to make that call :sad:

BusterBoo
January 18th, 2009, 10:13 AM
:thumbs up Excellent information!!!

While I would NEVER dream of becoming a "breeder". erykah's post has definitely set out all the reasons not to breed your pet. It puts it in plain english....after reading the list, there is no way that anyone can justify breeding "just because".

14+kitties
January 21st, 2009, 02:14 PM
A Letter from a Shelter Manager:

I think our society needs a huge " Wake-up" call.

As a shelter manager, I am going to share a little insight with you
all....a view from the inside if you will.

First off, all of you breeders/sellers should be made to work in the
"back" of an animal shelter for just one day.

Maybe if you saw the life drain from a few sad, lost, confused eyes,
you would change your mind about breeding and selling to people you
don't even know. That puppy you just sold will most likely end up in my
shelter when it's not a cute little puppy anymore.

So how would you feel if you knew that there's about a 90% chance that
dog will never walk out of the shelter it is going to be dumped at?
Purebred or not! About 50% of all of the dogs that are "owner
surrenders" or "strays" that come into my shelter are purebred dogs.

The most common excuses I hear are;

"We are moving and we can't take our dog (or cat)." Really? Where are
you moving to that doesn't allow pets and why did you choose that place
instead of a pet friendly home?

Or they say "The dog got bigger than we thought it would". How big did
you think a German Shepherd would get?

"We don't have time for her". Really? I work a 10- 12 hour day and
still have time for my 6 dogs!

"She’s tearing up our yard". How about making her apart of your
family?

They always tell me: "We just don't want to have to stress about
finding a place for her we know s
he'll get adopted, she's a good dog."

Odds are your pet won't get adopted & how stressful do you think being
in a shelter is? Well, let me tell you, your pet has 72 hours to find a
new family from the moment you drop it off. Sometimes a little longer
if the shelter isn't full and your dog manages to stay completely
healthy. If it sniffles, it dies.

Your pet will be confined to a small run/kennel in a room with about 25
other barking or crying animals. It will have to relieve itself where
it eats and sleeps.

It will be depressed and it will cry constantly for the family that
abandoned it.

If your pet is lucky, I will have enough volunteers in that day to take
him/her for a walk. If I don't, your pet won't get any attention
besides having a bowl of food slid under the kennel door and the waste
sprayed out of its pen with a high-powered hose.

If your dog is big, black or any of the "Bully" breeds (pit bull,
rottie, mastiff, etc) it was pretty much dead when you walked it
through the front door. Those dogs just don't get adopted.

It doesn't matter how 'sweet' or 'well behaved' they are. If your dog
doesn't get adopted within its 72 hours and the shelter is full, it
will be destroyed.

If the shelter isn't full and your dog is good enough, and of a
desirable enough breed it may get a stay of execution, but not for
long.

Most dogs get very kennel protective after about a week and are
destroyed for showing aggression. Even the sweetest dogs will turn in
this environment.

If your pet makes it over all of those hurdles chances are it will get
kennel cough or an upper respiratory infection and will be destroyed
because shelters just don't have the funds to pay for even a $100
treatment.

Here's a little euthanasia 101 for those of you that have never
witnessed a perfectly healthy, scared animal being "put-down".....

First, your pet will be taken from its kennel on a leash. They always
look like they think they are going for a walk - happy, wagging their
tails.

Until, they get to "The Room", every one of them freaks out and put the
brakes on when we get to the door. It must smell like death or they can
feel the sad souls that are left in there, it's strange, but it happens
with every one of them.

Your dog or cat will be restrained, held down by 1 or 2 vet techs
depending on the size and how freaked out they are.

Then a euthanasia tech or a vet will start the process. They will find
a vein in the front leg and inject a lethal dose of the "pink stuff".

Hopefully your pet doesn't panic from being restrained and jerk. I’ve e
seen the needles tear out of a leg and been covered with the resulting
blood and been deafened by the yelps and screams.

They all don't just "go to sleep", sometimes t
hey spasm for a while,
gasp for air and defecate on themselves.

When it all ends, your pet's corpse will be stacked like firewood in a
large freezer in the back with all of the other animals that were
killed waiting to be picked up like garbage.

What happens next? Cremated? Taken to the dump? Rendered into pet food?
You'll never know and it probably won't even cross your mind. It was
just an animal and you can always buy another one, right?

I hope that those of you that have read this are bawling your eyes out
and can't get the pictures out of your head I deal with everyday on the
way home from work.

I hate my job, I hate that it exists & I hate that it will always be
there unless you people make some changes and realize that the lives
you are affecting go much further than the pets you dump at a shelter.
__________________

totallyhip
January 22nd, 2009, 03:49 PM
I just received a report from LA animal services. In 2007 there were over 4,165,000 dogs and cats euthanized in the United States :sorry:

Pretty staggering number I say :eek:

14+kitties
January 22nd, 2009, 03:58 PM
I just received a report from LA animal services. In 2007 there were over 4,165,000 dogs and cats euthanized in the United States :sorry:

Pretty staggering number I say :eek:

And that is just in the US. Let's not add Canada's staggering #'s. :wall: But hey, let's keep breeding........

erykah1310
January 23rd, 2009, 09:20 AM
This is already taking a turn to being " No one should breed"
I think we really need to examine COE.
Each breed club has a COE which reaches everything from breeding to rescue
Example from Canadian Tibetan Mastiff Society
http://www.canadatms.org/MEMBERSHIP_INFO/membership_info.html
CTMS MEMBERS shall:

1. Abide by and uphold the principles of the Constitution and By-laws of the Canadian Tibetan Mastiff Society and of the Canadian Kennel Club.

2. Provide proper nutrition, exercise, regular grooming and veterinary care to maintain their Tibetan Mastiffs in good health.

3. Never abandon or place their Tibetan Mastiff in a shelter, pound, SPCA or other Humane Society. If circumstances dictate that they can no longer keep or care for their Tibetan Mastiffs, members shall make every effort to return them to the breeder or find a suitable new home for them.

4. Never supply a Tibetan Mastiff to a pet shop or commercial dealer or offer a dog as a prize for raffles, auctions or similar events.

5. Demonstrate good sportsmanship when competing in or spectating at Tibetan Mastiff Specialties or other dog related events in Canada or abroad.

6. Help and offer assistance to newcomers to the breed and the club.


In addition to the above, CTMS MEMBER BREEDERS shall:

1. Ensure that they have the necessary time, facilities and resources to properly care for the bitch and expected litter.

2. Make every effort to breed only dogs that conform to the CKC Misc. Class breed standard in order to maintain or improve the desired qualities of the Tibetan Mastiff.

3. Breed only healthy, mature Tibetan Mastiffs of sound temperament.

4. Breed no more than 4 litters from each female, with the first litter bred after 2 years of age or in second heat, skipping a season between most litters.

5. Breed only dogs that have OFA or OVC clearance for Hip Dysplasia (or clearance from another recognized certified organization).

6. It is highly recommended that all breeding stock be CERF'd prior to being bred.

7. Consider the placement of puppies carefully and screen prospective buyers to find the most suitable homes.

8. Only release healthy puppies to new homes after they are at least 8 weeks old and have been properly socialized.

9. Provide the purchaser with a written contract and accurate health, breeding and all appropriate registration records at the time of the sale.

10. Provide the purchaser with details of proper feeding, grooming, training, general care and advisable veterinary care.

11. Be willing to take back or assist in finding a new home for a Tibetan Mastiff they have sold if circumstances dictate that the owner can no longer care for the dog.

12. Be willing to assist any owner to whom they have sold a Tibetan Mastiff to for as long as they are a breeder.

13.To be willing to reasonably mentor/assist any owner to whom they have sold show or breeding stock in the areas of showing and/or breeding to the best of their ability.


And now for ATMA, which I am not a member of but still think the COE applies and prefer some of their ethics so therefore in the event I do ever breed Karma, I will be adhereing to them.
http://www.tibetanmastiff.org/PDFfiles/codeofethics.pdf
I won't copy and paste it as its quite long and detailed.

I don't see breeders who are following each and every one of these "rules" as being the problem, its impossible to be part of the problem if you are a strict COE breeder.
As for who you sell your pups to, well that is a whole other ball of wax. You can't theoretically trust anyone to be as strict on COE as you may be however, this is the reason for applications and checks. If a breeder is strict on who may and may not purchase a pup from them and are thorough on screening, odds are in their favor that they will find suitable LIFE LONG homes.

No COE breeder will have pups listed on the internet on places like Kijiji or Craigslist as there ARE LONG waiting lists for pups.
Karma's breeder has a list that could easily cover 2.5 litters, so, the best she can do is pick out who will be the best for the pups and for the others, sorry, they have the option of staying on the list until another litter becomes available, or a rescue comes through that may be a good pet match, or find a new breeder and hop on that waiting list ( which she may point you to, depending on how she feels about you as a TM owner).

You're not going to find many BYB of TM's, and the wait for them is a long one. Unless of course you are willing to pay upwards of $5000 from one american "breeder" who has an amazing smoke and mirrors website and seems ethical. ONce you get talking to this "breeder" you quickly learn the truth. 80+ pups a year... there is no way this breeder can take back each and every one of them. Clearly not a COE breeder or even a member of ATMA. But being that this breeder was one of the first and does have plenty of credetials to look ethical, it does take EDUCATION to know who you are purchasing from.
And this also shows why picking breeders you should be looking for ones that do belong to the breed club in your county ( or the country you are looking to buy from) there are reasons that some breeders who look good are not members. Either they have been suspended from the club, or never bothered to join because they could not comply with the COE.

Another common trap is falling for " they show their dogs, they must be ethical" true for the most part, but in the past year and a half of talking to and purchasing from breeders, you quickly learn that no matter how prestigious the shows they compete in, says nothing about ethics. My co-own I Had is an example of this... all titled dogs in her pedigree, but not knowing subtle red flags to look for I feel that purchasing that pup resulted in more heart ache than anything.
Even a Westminister competitor could have poor COE.
I imagine as show exhibitors and breeders the potential for getting greedy is very real as well as easy.
You come to a website like this one and insist on a getting a puppy for a breeder, the first thing that is said is " go to a show and talk to breeders" the one who is far too willing to sell a pup or retired show dog is clearly a good breeder to research into, not many breeders will make a descision on you at a show ( unless you have been talking to them for some time and they just needed to see you and question you in person to see how you respond to questions on the spot). There could be skeletons in their closet if they are willing to sell on the spot.

Buying a pup from a breeder is a very complex process, both the purchaser and the breeder need to be equally as careful.

Jim Hall
January 23rd, 2009, 10:04 AM
how can anyone with a consiunce breed any dogs or puppies when there are so many in shelters ? sorry i just think its unadulterated selfishness "ethical" or not

14+kitties
January 23rd, 2009, 11:06 AM
This is already taking a turn to being " No one should breeed.[/url]

I beg to differ. As it has been pointed out time and time again, ethical breeders would have no need to come to a website to ask questions. :shrug: I don't think any of us are against ethical breeding. That is a far cry from BYB's and puppy mills.

Jim Hall
January 23rd, 2009, 11:52 AM
I don't think any of us are against ethical breeding.

well i am

14+kitties
April 24th, 2009, 11:42 AM
Just found this while doing a search for something else. Thought it was pertinent to this thread.

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=7986&highlight=beware+free+good+home

Love4himies
April 24th, 2009, 12:32 PM
I don't think any of us are against ethical breeding.

well i am

Me too. :o

14+kitties
April 24th, 2009, 12:47 PM
I don't think any of us are against ethical breeding.

well i am

Me too. :o


I can see I have to explain my comment a little.
When I say "ethical" breeder I am talking about a breeder who only breeds the dog once every year or two. Preferable two. In fact if there were no breeding allowed at all for at least two or three years until all the overpopulation of dogs and cats has been solved that would suit me to a tee as well.
I am not talking about a breeder who breeds a dog two to three times a year. That is obviously someone who is in it for what they can get. People who call themselves "hobby" breeders but are still breeding on a twice yearly basis so they can see what puppies from two of their dogs would be like are not ethical breeders in my eyes either. :shrug: At what point does it become not a hobby but a business?
I am sorry if I offended.

Love4himies
April 24th, 2009, 01:00 PM
I can see I have to explain my comment a little.
When I say "ethical" breeder I am talking about a breeder who only breeds the dog once every year or two. Preferable two. In fact if there were no breeding allowed at all for at least two or three years until all the overpopulation of dogs and cats has been solved that would suit me to a tee as well.
I am not talking about a breeder who breeds a dog two to three times a year. That is obviously someone who is in it for what they can get. People who call themselves "hobby" breeders but are still breeding on a twice yearly basis so they can see what puppies from two of their dogs would be like are not ethical breeders in my eyes either. :shrug: At what point does it become not a hobby but a business?
I am sorry if I offended.

You did absolutely nothing to offend me :grouphug: I just really feel strongly about breeding while dogs and cats are being euthanized.

14+kitties
April 24th, 2009, 01:59 PM
You did absolutely nothing to offend me :grouphug: I just really feel strongly about breeding while dogs and cats are being euthanized.


Me too. But I also have to look at the dogs that are being bred for seeing eye dogs, police work, etc. We have a gentleman who trains these pups for seeing eye dogs come into the store every day with the current pup he is raising. He has one for 18 months and then gets another one when the pup goes on to his working home. He always gets the pups from the same breeder. Those are the breeders I feel should be allowed to have one litter a year (or two).

annika
November 10th, 2009, 06:39 AM
Interesting information everyone, thanks! I have been thinking about breeding, and this gives me a good idea of what I should expect or what I should keep in mind. I can see that it is not an easy task, you have to be very dedicated!

14+kitties
February 22nd, 2010, 12:22 PM
I thought I would add this one to the other articles because of another thread where some questions were being asked. Good info here.

http://www.breedsmartpartners.com/bronline/en_US/jsp/BO_Page.jsp?pageID=RLDP&articleID=54


Do Aging Female Dogs Experience Menopause?

By Jocelynn Jacobs, DVM

Dr. Jacobs is a veterinarian, breeder, and exhibitor of Alaskan Malamutes. She has a breeder- referral practice where she works with breeders and owners of performance dogs.

I’m often asked as a breeder-veterinarian, “What will happen to my bitch when she gets older—will she go into menopause like people do?” “Should she be spayed?” “Will she eventually stop cycling?” “Do her chances of developing a pyometra increase as she ages?” These are interesting questions that deserve to be explored. Maintaining the health of our bitches after their reproductive years are over is important.

The Aging Ovaries
As your female dog enters her senior years and continues to have heat cycles, her ovaries may start to physically look abnormal. Normal ovaries are about the size and consistence of a soybean in small dogs and a lima bean in large dogs. Over the years, ovaries can develop pitting along their surface, or may develop cysts filled with fluid. During spays on older females, I have seen some ovaries look like a small piece of cauliflower with cysts and thickened tissue covering them. Ovaries continue to regulate hormonal releases, but as they age, they lose the efficiency to do it well.

The interval between heats may increase as your dog gets older, decreasing the number of times she goes into heat each year. In one report, 18-month-old dogs cycled an average of 1.65 times per year, while 7-year-old bitches cycled an average of 1.4 times per year.1 As your bitch continues to age past 7 years, fewer and fewer heat cycles occur. Eventually, your bitch may completely stop cycling. In this regard, it is similar to human menopause, but in dogs there are other considerations—mainly dealing with uterine health.

The Aging Uterus
The lining of the dog’s uterus is called the endometrium, and it remains proliferative (thickened) throughout its life. Many other species do not have proliferative uterine linings all their lives—this may be one reason dogs are unique when it comes to their aging reproductive tracts.

The ovaries and uterus use hormones to communicate to each other about reproductive status. The ovaries tell the uterine lining when to be ready for ovulation and when to go into estrus. The uterus tells the ovaries when it is pregnant.

As your bitch gets older, communication between the ovaries and uterus may not be as efficient as in her younger years. The proliferative lining of the uterus may undergo degenerative changes or excessive thickening because the communication between the two organs begins to fail. As the condition progresses, inflammatory cells appear in an effort to rid the uterus of excessive mucous or thickened tissue. Sometimes the uterus fills with high numbers of inflammatory cells and can develop a secondary bacterial infection. This is pyometra, a filled uterus, which can be a deadly condition if not treated by your veterinarian immediately.

So as your bitch ages, even though she may not cycle as often as she did in her younger years, the ovaries and uterus continue a not-so-effective form of communication, which eventually can cause pyometra. Therefore, to prevent this from happening, all female dogs should be spayed when they are no longer being used in a breeding program.

Is There a Magical Age?
Before a bitch of any age is bred, her overall health should be considered. In all instances, she should be in perfect health, but this is especially important when considering a bitch over 6 years old. All bitches over 6 years old should have a thorough examination by your veterinarian - no exceptions. Blood work and a urinalysis should be to screen for potential metabolic conditions or organ disease. The physically demanding needs of pregnancy or hard labor could heighten the conditions of a pre-existing disease and threaten the life of your bitch.

As bitches age, their fertility drops—their conception rates decrease and their litter size usually decreases. In one study, bitches between 3 and 5 years of age had the best conception rates and largest number of surviving puppies.1

So, if your bitch is in excellent health, how old is too old for her to be bred? In a survey conducted with breeders of small, medium and large breeds of dogs, they were asked at what age they usually stop using their bitches in a breeding program. The average was between 7 and 8 years of age.2 Keep in mind this was the average of many different breeds, and some breeders spay their bitches at an earlier age. Some breeders also consider the total number of litters the bitch has had when determining when to stop breeding—the more litters, the earlier they should be taken out of a breeding program. As a veterinarian, I recommend my clients have their bitches spayed by 7 or 8 years of age (or younger if the bitch is no longer being bred) to reduce the risk of pyometra.

SushiMutt
July 8th, 2010, 02:51 PM
we do not feel it is necessary to add to the overpopulation of animals. At this moment there are millions of cats and dogs a year being euthanized; some not very humanely.

I agree entirely with this...

Although, I would like to say that breeding dogs is an amazing thing when you do it correctly. (I have not bred any dogs, but I've read several books and seen many animal planet shows on the subject, so I don't know much about it first hand.) Despite the lack of first hand knowledge, I do know that breeding is something that must be done carefully, in many was.

Often, people make the mistake of breeding random dogs together, for fun...and then they're stuck with 6-12 mutts. (I'm not talking about "designer" breeds, I'm talking just...mutts.) I have nothing against mutts themselves, one is my best friend. What I don't like about it is that the puppies aren't "selling material". It's sad, but true. Often people want pure breds if they can get their hands on them...The mutts often end up in animal shelters, waiting to be adopted. Which is why there is no real need to breed dogs at the moment...Shelters are overflowing with puppies, adult dogs and senior dogs.

Anyway, to conclude, I agree!

SPCA : http://www.spcamonteregie.com/index.php :)

Goldfields
July 9th, 2010, 12:37 PM
I can see I have to explain my comment a little.
When I say "ethical" breeder I am talking about a breeder who only breeds the dog once every year or two. Preferable two.

If I did what you suggest here, 14+, I'd have had so many litters. 12 females I've owned over a period of 34 years, say each one having a litter every second year? Or only 1 female breeding at a time? Still 17 litters. :eek: I'd have gone broke for starters, or nuts looking after so many, or been divorced - and I wouldn't blame him. There are all sorts of breeders out there and if everyone wants to be so judgemental - which you're entitled to seeing you have such a huge over population - you should try blaming the people who are responsible for it, and not just generalise about "breeders". Without those wicked breeders you would not have all those beautiful pure breeds to develope a liking for.

14+kitties
July 9th, 2010, 01:02 PM
If I did what you suggest here, 14+, I'd have had so many litters. 12 females I've owned over a period of 34 years, say each one having a litter every second year? Or only 1 female breeding at a time? Still 17 litters. :eek: I'd have gone broke for starters, or nuts looking after so many, or been divorced - and I wouldn't blame him. There are all sorts of breeders out there and if everyone wants to be so judgemental - which you're entitled to seeing you have such a huge over population - you should try blaming the people who are responsible for it, and not just generalise about "breeders". Without those wicked breeders you would not have all those beautiful pure breeds to develope a liking for.

And once again - Did you notice I said DOG? Not dogS. DOG. Every two years. Now if a breeder did that with one dog; had families lined up for them before breeding, which I understand good breeders do; and had a litter of 8 to 10 then why would they go crazy? Mom does most of the work feeding them for the first few weeks. After 10 to 12 weeks the pups would go to their forever home and the breeder would have almost a year and a half rest before going through it again. Small price to pay to make sure you are breeding ethically. :confused:
You didn't own those 12 dogs all at once? You didn't breed past the age of eight? :confused: Surely 17 litters in 34 years for an ethical breeder is not that large of a number?
See, I was under the notion, as being told many times by breeders, that breeders breed for the love of the line, not money. :shrug: I suppose from your comment about going broke I am mistaken. Again.
I don't know if you noticed but in the rules of the forum it's pretty clear when you signed up that this is by a large majority a pro spay/neuter forum. I also don't know if you read but the reason I started this thread was because we had so many "breeders" coming on asking questions that, if they were ethical breeders, they should have known.
I have no intention of having yet another thread locked arguing this back and forth. It seems to be becoming a pattern. I have said my piece.

aslan
July 9th, 2010, 01:05 PM
If I did what you suggest here, 14+, I'd have had so many litters. 12 females I've owned over a period of 34 years, say each one having a litter every second year? Or only 1 female breeding at a time? Still 17 litters. :eek: I'd have gone broke for starters, or nuts looking after so many, or been divorced - and I wouldn't blame him. There are all sorts of breeders out there and if everyone wants to be so judgemental - which you're entitled to seeing you have such a huge over population - you should try blaming the people who are responsible for it, and not just generalise about "breeders". Without those wicked breeders you would not have all those beautiful pure breeds to develope a liking for.

totally sick of the snide comments and this one has been reported..we're here to educate people and try and help animals,,

14+kitties
July 9th, 2010, 01:07 PM
totally sick of the snide comments and this one has been reported..we're here to educate people and try and help animals,,

:grouphug: Thanks mf!

shirley1011
July 9th, 2010, 01:11 PM
Aslan...thought you were on holidays!!
I have had a couple of litters of Norwegian Elkhounds but only when I have had a waiting list of people who sincerely wanted puppies.
I would not breed a dog past 4 years of age and probably won't be breeding again. We have a beautiful line of Norwegian Elkhounds but I think my efforts are better spent in finding homes for Elkhounds that are in search of new homes.......actually one in Hamilton now that I am working on.

aslan
July 9th, 2010, 01:17 PM
Aslan...thought you were on holidays!!
I have had a couple of litters of Norwegian Elkhounds but only when I have had a waiting list of people who sincerely wanted puppies.
I would not breed a dog past 4 years of age and probably won't be breeding again. We have a beautiful line of Norwegian Elkhounds but I think my efforts are better spent in finding homes for Elkhounds that are in search of new homes.......actually one in Hamilton now that I am working on.

lol,,,i am...see now that is ethical breeding as is the breeder whom we got qman from,,,she doesn't breed before the age of atleast 2 and never past the age of 4..we just lucked out with Q,,she was expecting 9 puppies and just happened to have 10 or we'd have been on the waiting list too.

Goldfields
July 9th, 2010, 09:24 PM
Aslan, I'm more conservative than 14+ and you can't hear me out? I will try to answer her questions, if I am allowed to.

Now if a breeder did that with one dog; had families lined up for them before breeding, which I understand good breeders do; and had a litter of 8 to 10 then why would they go crazy?

Sounds good, families lined up, it'd be an ideal world if that always happened. Thinking generally, breeders should be prepared for the cost, and some would say the inconvenience, of holding onto pups that are slow to sell, even keeping any that don't. I hate it when people consider pups at weaning age to be a nuisance, wanting to get rid of them ASAP. They bought them into the world, they are responsible, and if they HAD to do that it'd stop people breeding too often. I haven't had that happen, but with large litters I have had to put some expense and effort into finding just the right homes. Why would people go crazy? Try rearing 11 ACD babies. If you didn't have a bad back before you start you are going to have one by the time you've stooped down a million times. (Feels like that anyway. :D) And this breed I've got are tigers, the fighting that goes on between the fiesty male puppies by 8 weeks of age :eek:, and they'll pick on the smallest, or on the females. Yes, it drives you to the brink. :laughing:

You didn't own those 12 dogs all at once? You didn't breed past the age of eight?

I have owned 12 dogs at once, the show team, the oldies, the few I raised for showing but found weren't up to par for some reason. The age of 8? :eek: That's an old dog. I haven't and wouldn't breed past the age of 4. Our Code of Ethics states you mustn't mate them so they whelp before 12 months of age, and then you mustn't cause one to whelp more than twice in 18 months, so yes, lots of breeders would be breeding them later than 4, just not yours truly. In fact of the 12 girls I've owned, 6 did not have litters at all, one had 2 litters, the others only 1.

Surely 17 litters in 34 years for an ethical breeder is not that large of a number?

With up to 10 or 12 pups a litter, multiplied by how many breeders are out there? Still means a lot of pups. And I'd be surprised if any breeder, breeding for showing or to improve the breed could do it with one female at a time. More pups. I was disgusted to hear that one breeder here had been so upset when her cattle dog had died before she had her 100th pup. It had 99! That is outright cruelty and is puppy farming IMO.

See, I was under the notion, as being told many times by breeders, that breeders breed for the love of the line, not money. I suppose from your comment about going broke I am mistaken. Again.

No, you aren't mistaken.
Back at the time of that big litter, I wanted to know what it was costing, When it reached the amount that could have been reached by selling the litter, I stopped counting and haven't counted since. Oh, I reached that amount well before the pups were weaning age, they get pretty spoilt here. :D So, you shouldn't breed unless you are ready to lose money every time, and yeah, not being a millionaire, I could go broke . I'd rather put money in the Bank to earn interest for the times when I want to try and breed our next show dog, or buy it. I think the breeders who breed for showing, and are very concerned about trying to improve a breed, are totally different to those who try to make money out of breeding, but it appears that on this forum people are never given the chance to show what category they fit into.

cassiek
July 9th, 2010, 10:28 PM
I agree entirely with this...

Although, I would like to say that breeding dogs is an amazing thing when you do it correctly. It can be amazing when it's done by ethical breeders that have the breed's best interest in mind and have the experience, knowledge, and money to successfuly raise a litter of pups. It is never amazing when it's done by BYB's, puppy mills, etc. etc., no matter how cute the pups are :(

(I have not bred any dogs, but I've read several books and seen many animal planet shows on the subject, so I don't know much about it first hand.) Despite the lack of first hand knowledge, I do know that breeding is something that must be done carefully, in many was.

Often, people make the mistake of breeding random dogs together, for fun...and then they're stuck with 6-12 mutts. (I'm not talking about "designer" breeds, I'm talking just...mutts.) IMO, "designer breeds" such as labradoodles, chorkies, and all the other silly names are simply just two random dogs put together and are simply mutts. I have nothing against mutts themselves, one is my best friend. What I don't like about it is that the puppies aren't "selling material". It's sad, but true. Often people want pure breds if they can get their hands on them...The mutts often end up in animal shelters, waiting to be adopted. It's surprising just how many purebred dogs end up in shelters though, they are not all mixed breeds. At the humane society I work with, we have on average about 40-50% purebreds. Yes, people dump purebred dogs, too.Which is why there is no real need to breed dogs at the moment...Shelters are overflowing with puppies, adult dogs and senior dogs.

Anyway, to conclude, I agree!

SPCA : http://www.spcamonteregie.com/index.php :)

There should never be a reason to breed any two dogs while there are still millions being PTS every year simply because they do not have a home! :(

marko
July 10th, 2010, 08:49 AM
Thread has run its course and closed at the request of the OP.