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Thoughts on the anti breeder philosophy

Dekka
January 6th, 2009, 09:29 AM
Another thread got me thinking.

The anti-breeder sentiment is possibly making the problem worse. Now bear with me through this.

First off I have to say I do support rescue and have and do foster for the JRTRO and helped rehab dogs who were due to be PTS. When we wanted a BC we adopted from BC rescue of Ontario. I do breed JRTs very occasionally because there are so many JRTs needing homes already (so I also don't breed for the pet market)

Now there are two groups of anti breeder people. People who support PETA and want no more pets of any kind period. Those people are just wackjobs we can forget about them for the time being.

Then there are people who say no more breeding till all the dogs in shelters find homes.

Ok lets talk about that.

We all know that until people stop buying impulse puppies at pet stores and are more educated about where to find a puppy the Millers and BYB will still be in business. This is where the rescue and shelter dogs come from. IMO BYB and Millers don't care about dogs or the plight of the over population problem. So they are not going to slow down production.. why should they. They just sell them to people who dump them in shelters and rescues. They still get the cash just the same.

The shelters and rescues are just cleaning up other people's messes. As long as there are those who will jump in and clean up the messes what insentive does the breeder of those dogs have to stop? Shelters and rescues give a place for people to 'feel good' about dumping their dogs. They delude themselves into thinking that 9 year old arthritic Fluffy will find a great home that can look after his health problems, or that Sharkie the biting terrier who messes on the floor will find someone who can train him.

The issue is we need to educate the public. By sending telling them to just adopt and save a life and to not go to a breeder is good for the dog they get.. but is it good for dogs? We tell people not to go to a BYB or get from a pet store. We list health problems temperament problems bad breedign practicies etc etc... yet that is the dog they adopt! (of course all don't have issues.. but all byb or milled dogs don't either.. you just have a much higher chance) How do we educate the public without shoot ourselves in the foot?

And realistically if those breeders who DO care about dogs (AKA all the good and ethical breeders who will do everything in their power to keep pups out of shelters etc) stop breeding... what happens when they do want to start breeding again? What happens to all those health tested proven bloodlines? If our goal is to have a happy well adjusted healthy dog population we need to keep the good breeders going and stop the bad ones. Right now the anti-breeder types are supporting the bad breeders indirectly and harming the good ones.

How do we fix this? Educating the public is difficult. Dogs are not objects and its not their fault they were bred, but we need to some how stop making it so easy for the Millers to pump out dogs.

The only idea I have had is to mandate that all pups sold in petstores are microchipped. The name of the breeder MUST stay on the microchip as a second name. That way if the dog ever gets sent to a shelter the dog can be shipped back to the breeder (and a follow up to see what they did with the dog... I am not against painless euthanasia after a period of looking for a home for an unwanted dog.. its better than being a stray or living their life in a cage). If every unwanted dog got returned to the breeder that might curb the excess production of pups.

Not that you could make this happen... if the people who drop off Fluffy or Sharkie had to watch their 'beloved' pet being euthed it might make dumping them a little harder to do.

Any one have any suggestions.. I am at a loss.

clm
January 6th, 2009, 09:48 AM
I would suggest that dogs or cats should not be sold at pet stores period.

I would also suggest that the AKC and CKC should get their heads out of the sand and start regulating their breeders and make them responsible for the litters they register.

Cindy

Dekka
January 6th, 2009, 09:53 AM
I would suggest that dogs or cats should not be sold at pet stores period.

I would also suggest that the AKC and CKC should get their heads out of the sand and start regulating their breeders and make them responsible for the litters they register.

Cindy

That would be good if they couldn't... but then what about BYB's?

The KCs... lol dont' get me started on those.

(they promote a product (a pure bred dog) they resister the product, they test the product (dog shows) they train the testers of the product, the award the product.. but if something goes wrong with the product.. hey it has nothing to do with them!)

But so many people breed outside the KCs. I am into JRTs (we have our own registry and DO NOT WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE KC at all, in any way or form) I love BCs.. most breeders also wanted nothing to do with the CKC. They were voted in by other CKC members (all members not just BC people) It was only a handful of BC breeders who wanted in.. a huge mess now) The LHW were kicked out of the KC back in the 50's when politics decided whippets can't have anything but short smooth coats......

having the KCs step up would be a huge help, but there are so many skeezy registries that would keep on registering.

aslan
January 6th, 2009, 10:06 AM
a possible sollution to some of this would be that ethical akc/ckc breeders have to have a licence. You must be akc/ckc approved to qualify for the licence. Anyone selling puppies without a proper licence be fined up the ying yang, a law needs to be passed that pet stores are not allowed to sell puppies period. This may rectify some of the problem.

BenMax
January 6th, 2009, 10:07 AM
I would suggest that dogs or cats should not be sold at pet stores period.

I would also suggest that the AKC and CKC should get their heads out of the sand and start regulating their breeders and make them responsible for the litters they register.

Cindy

I could not say this better - to the point and well put. Excellent clm as I second this.

Excellent topic Dekka.

AmericanBullMom
January 6th, 2009, 10:19 AM
My :2cents: on this.

There are always going to BYBs out there. Whether dog, cat, birds, hampsters or whatever. As long as petstores are buying them in bulk, "breeders" are going to continue to farm them. All we can hope is that the authorities continue to eradicate them one by one. You probable cant imagine the deplorable conditions those animals suffer in.

There is nothing wrong with buying a dog from a REPUTABLE breeder, where the breeder is breeding for the love of that specific breed, and the breeding animals are WELL taken care of, and NOT forced to produce litter after litter after litter. If you're a sheep farmer and you want a good herding dog, you go for a BC. If you're the avid duck hunter, you go for a nice Lab. Of course mutt dogs can do both of these things too.

If you're buying a nice family pet, one thats going to sit in your lap, cuddle on the couch, play with the kids, and live to be as old as mother nature intended, WHY on Dog's Green Earth do you need a pure-bred dog. Or even worse a "malti-poo" or a "Labradoodle".... $2500 for a MUTT that you can probably find in a shelter and pay $35 for.

Petstores should no longer be allowed to sell dogs or kittens, or birds for that matter, period. The local petstore that I buy our dog food from WILL NOT sell any puppies, they only adopt out kittens from our local shelter.

I guess I can see the draw of owning a PURE-BRED something... so you can say " Yeah man, the great great great grandfather of my AMAZING Yellow Lab was the biggest money winner in Mississippi..." But honestly, who gives a flying fish?

BenMax
January 6th, 2009, 10:28 AM
I guess I can see the draw of owning a PURE-BRED something... so you can say " Yeah man, the great great great grandfather of my AMAZING Yellow Lab was the biggest money winner in Mississippi..." But honestly, who gives a flying fish?

:laughing::laughing::laughing: Too funny.

This is an excellent thread and all humour aside it will be interesting to hear how people feel about this. I just hope that we can all discuss the following and be civil and open our minds a little. Some may be intimidated to address.

AmericanBullMom
January 6th, 2009, 10:34 AM
:laughing::laughing::laughing: Too funny.

This is an excellent thread and all humour aside it will be interesting to hear how people feel about this. I just hope that we can all discuss the following and be civil and open our minds a little. Some may be intimidated to address.

Absolutely! I'm very open-minded, and hope to see some good responses to this thread. Everyone has an opinion.:thumbs up

Dekka
January 6th, 2009, 10:34 AM
I guess I can see the draw of owning a PURE-BRED something... so you can say " Yeah man, the great great great grandfather of my AMAZING Yellow Lab was the biggest money winner in Mississippi..." But honestly, who gives a flying fish

See that isn't why pet people should care...

they should think "my dog's family is genetic disease free and have the best temperament a Lab can have"

BYB aren't usually the ones supplying pet stores. There are lots of BYB around here. They sell pups for the same price as you can adopt from the JRTRO. I have people calling me and then getting mad when I say I can't produce pups for that price. I mean I don't make money breeding but I don't want to loose huge amounts either.

badger
January 6th, 2009, 10:41 AM
Regulating breeders will be about as successful as controlling handguns. The millers will go even further underground or offshore, it is just too lucrative. They are already trucking puppies in from the US under NAFTA (they probably lump them in with livestock).
If pet-stores demand in-depth health checks for the puppies they traffic, the cost of that (especially if genetics are involved) will wipe out their profit margin. If you ban mill puppies from petstores, a Charter case is a given and the miller who brings the case will be squeaky clean.
What needs to change is the status of animals in the society. In Quebec, it is the Minister of Agriculture who is responsible for this file. That tells you plenty right there.
I know there are thousands of people working on this but we just don't seem to be making any progress. I shudder to think of the Chinese market - between eating dog (apparently it has been banned - right)) and flaunting the latest breed, their wild commercialism bodes ill for anything on four legs.

hazelrunpack
January 6th, 2009, 10:45 AM
The only thing that will eliminate puppy mills and BYBs is lack of a market, which is where education comes in. But there's only just so far education can go because many people don't give priority to the problem of animal welfare, especially in hard times. When was the last time you talked to a voter about issues and heard "animal rights"? I made many calls before this past election and not one person I talked to mentioned this as an issue of concern.

It's a quandary that is going to be around a very long time. I would love to see good legislation that cleans up puppymills at the very least...but politicians have a knack for screwing up the best of intentions. I actually found myself lobbying against an "anti-puppymill" bill passing through our state legislature last year because it allowed for too many tragic unintended consequences. Talk about frustrating!!! :frustrated:

Doing away with legitimate breeders is not an option if breeds are to continue. Stop breeding from the registries for 5 years and through aging and attrition, the gene pool already becomes so constricted that very few breeds would survive. And it will take much longer than that to address the problem of BYBs and puppymillers. If you want any kind of a working dog or just love a particular breed, the registries must continue. :shrug: So I do agree with you, Dekka, that if everyone went to a shelter, it would be bad for breeds. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't or can't rescue purebreds. Legitimate breeders try to keep track of their pups and take responsibility for them. This is how we got Lil Belle and Grace. Some breeders even rescue dogs not of their own breeding--this is how we got Ms Macie and Brier.

And if someone is not in the market for a purebred dog (sometimes even if they are), the shelters have so many wonderful dogs to offer. Most of the dog people I know have adopted from a shelter and all have found wonderful companions for their families.

By far the majority of dogs in our shelter are BYB or unintended litter dogs. Maybe it's just that if you research a breed and pay the price to acquire from a legitimate breeder, you're more likely to take responsible care for your dog. Or maybe it's just our rural area. :shrug:

The more people who are educated as to what makes an ethical/responsible breeder, the better, of course. However, convincing consumers that they'll save money in the long run if they go with a rescue/shelter or legitimate breeder as opposed to a BYB or a pet store dog is a harder sell yet. :shrug: And until the market dries up, we'll never see the end to the puppy mills. :sad:

mona_b
January 6th, 2009, 10:48 AM
a possible sollution to some of this would be that ethical akc/ckc breeders have to have a licence. You must be akc/ckc approved to qualify for the licence. Anyone selling puppies without a proper licence be fined up the ying yang, a law needs to be passed that pet stores are not allowed to sell puppies period. This may rectify some of the problem.

I totaly agree...:thumbs up

The only idea I have had is to mandate that all pups sold in petstores are microchipped. The name of the breeder MUST stay on the microchip as a second name.

This will never happen...Pet stores do not indulge information in to where the pups come from...Trust me, I have tried...And got kicked out..Or at least they tried...;)

There is one by me that states the pups come grom "hybred" breeders...They actually have a sign stating why hybreds are better then reputable breeders....:rolleyes:

Dekka I was just wondering the reason you breed?

BenMax
January 6th, 2009, 10:48 AM
The more people who are educated as to what makes an ethical/responsible breeder, the better, of course. However, convincing consumers that they'll save money in the long run if they go with a rescue/shelter or legitimate breeder as opposed to a BYB or a pet store dog is a harder sell yet. :shrug: And until the market dries up, we'll never see the end to the puppy mills. :sad:

This is the obstacle...education. Nice post HRP.

Dekka
January 6th, 2009, 11:00 AM
Dekka I was just wondering the reason you breed?

I breed to preserve the working traits and abilities of the JRT. To produce dogs who will work/excel in dog sports as well as make great companions.

If my dogs don't hunt, aren't good to live with, or fail their health testing, they don't get bred.

I have tracked down one pup I bred and got him back (long story) and he has a fabulous new home. That is one advatage with working with the JRTRO if I loose track of a puppy buyer I still have the chance of catching the dog.

AmericanBullMom
January 6th, 2009, 11:27 AM
I breed to preserve the working traits and abilities of the JRT. To produce dogs who will work/excel in dog sports as well as make great companions.

If my dogs don't hunt, aren't good to live with, or fail their health testing, they don't get bred.

I have tracked down one pup I bred and got him back (long story) and he has a fabulous new home. That is one advatage with working with the JRTRO if I loose track of a puppy buyer I still have the chance of catching the dog.


Are the puppies neuterd and spayed before being sold? YOU might be a responsible breeder, but whose to say the person you sold the dog to is going to be as wonderful.. You can say that you do as much background checking as you want, but its way easy for a person to lie.

Love4himies
January 6th, 2009, 11:30 AM
I guess I can see the draw of owning a PURE-BRED something... so you can say " Yeah man, the great great great grandfather of my AMAZING Yellow Lab was the biggest money winner in Mississippi..." But honestly, who gives a flying fish?


:laughing::laughing: Good one.

hazelrunpack
January 6th, 2009, 11:32 AM
imo if you sell a dog at 8-12 weeks, you would be unethical to spay or castrate before selling it ABM--there are consequences to neutering that early. About the best a breeder can do is have a non-breeding/neutering contract, but in the States at least, if the buyer is from another state, your chances of enforcing the contract are almost nil and prohibitively expensive to follow up legally. :shrug:

Love4himies
January 6th, 2009, 11:33 AM
The only idea I have had is to mandate that all pups sold in petstores are microchipped. The name of the breeder MUST stay on the microchip as a second name. That way if the dog ever gets sent to a shelter the dog can be shipped back to the breeder (and a follow up to see what they did with the dog... I am not against painless euthanasia after a period of looking for a home for an unwanted dog.. its better than being a stray or living their life in a cage). If every unwanted dog got returned to the breeder that might curb the excess production of pups.

Any one have any suggestions.. I am at a loss.

Pups and Kittens should be spayed/neutered before being adopted too. This would mean the breeder would have to keep them longer and it would cost them more money before selling (both of which they don't want to do)

I think you are right, if the breeder was going to get their dogs back, then they may stop producing them like McDonalds produces hamburgers

BenMax
January 6th, 2009, 11:34 AM
Are the puppies neuterd and spayed before being sold? YOU might be a responsible breeder, but whose to say the person you sold the dog to is going to be as wonderful.. You can say that you do as much background checking as you want, but its way easy for a person to lie.

Sorry to interject but shelters and rescues go through the same thing as described above. Not all rescues nor shelters sterilize there dogs (or cats) before they leave...ugly but true.

As far as the screening process goes it would be the same I guess with Dekka. There are no guarantees that the people who present themselves are who they say they are. What I do is keep close contact with the adoptive family - this way I get pictures, letters, cards etc.... It is rare that we need to rehome - but it would be unrealistic for anyone or any organization to say that they never made a wrong decision.

clm
January 6th, 2009, 11:38 AM
Not all rescues nor shelters sterilize there dogs (or cats) before they leave...ugly but true.



Very true, a lot of shelters don't sterilize their dogs or cats prior to adoption. Some may include a voucher that can be redeemed if you do.

Cindy

AmericanBullMom
January 6th, 2009, 11:40 AM
See that isn't why pet people should care...

they should think "my dog's family is genetic disease free and have the best temperament a Lab can have"

BYB aren't usually the ones supplying pet stores. There are lots of BYB around here. They sell pups for the same price as you can adopt from the JRTRO. I have people calling me and then getting mad when I say I can't produce pups for that price. I mean I don't make money breeding but I don't want to loose huge amounts either.

A shelter dog is A LOT less likely to have any genetic issues. And will probably be 95% healthier throughout its life than a Pure-Bred Dog. You can remove all the dogs that have bad temprements, and some genetic issues from your breeding stock, and then end up with 2-3 dogs that are "perfect"... and probably so closely related that the puppies will have 7 legs.

BYBs ARE supplying petstores... I guess I should have called it a PuppyMill, but in my opinion PuppyMills are operated by BYBs.

BenMax
January 6th, 2009, 11:42 AM
Very true, a lot of shelters don't sterilize their dogs or cats prior to adoption. Some may include a voucher that can be redeemed if you do.

Cindy

I witnessed that. Hopefully they ensure a follow up in order to keep control after adoption. I don't know how I feel about that. (ok - yes I do):D

hazelrunpack
January 6th, 2009, 11:42 AM
Pups and Kittens should be spayed/neutered before being adopted too. This would mean the breeder would have to keep them longer and it would cost them more money before selling (both of which they don't want to do)

I think you are right, if the breeder was going to get their dogs back, then they may stop producing them like McDonalds produces hamburgers

Legitimate breeders don't produce them like McD's do hamburgers. Only puppy millers do.

People buying from legitimate breeders often want the pups early because bonding is easier and deeper with a pup you're raising than with an older dog you're adopting.

We can see that with our two boys, Ember and Cole. We are bonded with all our dogs, but with those two, it's different--hard to explain the difference, but it's invaluable for any kind of working dogs.

AmericanBullMom
January 6th, 2009, 11:44 AM
Sorry to interject but shelters and rescues go through the same thing as described above. Not all rescues nor shelters sterilize there dogs (or cats) before they leave...ugly but true.

As far as the screening process goes it would be the same I guess with Dekka. There are no guarantees that the people who present themselves are who they say they are. What I do is keep close contact with the adoptive family - this way I get pictures, letters, cards etc.... It is rare that we need to rehome - but it would be unrealistic for anyone or any organization to say that they never made a wrong decision.

I guess I dont know about the rescues up there, I forget most every is from Canada, but here ALL dogs and cats are spayed or neutered before being adopted out. And I'm talking about shelters... But all the rescues I've been to has a spay and neuter program too.
:shrug:

I just hope and pray for the day when there are NO MORE Puppymills, and no more puppies sold in petstores...

BenMax
January 6th, 2009, 11:46 AM
[QUOTE=hazelrunpack;726218]People buying from legitimate breeders often want the pups early because bonding is easier and deeper with a pup you're raising than with an older dog you're adopting.

QUOTE]

I don't agree with this statement at all. I have had pups come in very young from 'breeders' (you know what I mean) that are young and horrible. You remember the chocolate lab pup?? It was not a bonding nor deep.

I have to tell you there is nothing better than getting a dog from the shelter (or any caged environment). The excitement of the dog getting out and the joy you feel collide like there is no other chemistry. The bonding I have had with older dogs (such as my Ben) was instant. My fosters are the same. I have a hard time seeing them off and they have a hard time leaving.

hazelrunpack
January 6th, 2009, 11:49 AM
A shelter dog is A LOT less likely to have any genetic issues. And will probably be 95% healthier throughout its life than a Pure-Bred Dog. You can remove all the dogs that have bad temprements, and some genetic issues from your breeding stock, and then end up with 2-3 dogs that are "perfect"... and probably so closely related that the puppies will have 7 legs.


I think this is an overstatement.

If the gene pool for a breed is large enough, you can set a type and work out a lot of the genetic issues without getting so extremely inbred that you get genetic diseases. Depending on what mixed breeds have gone into a dog, you may still get genetic diseases. For instance, if someone has an accidental litter of newf/dane pups, hip dysplasia (multigenic trait) is a good likelihood since both breeds can have joint problems. Same goes for any genetic trait.

Unfortunately, dogs have deleterious genes, as do all other animals, and the odds are that eventually you'll find them expressed, even in mixed breeds :shrug:

Love4himies
January 6th, 2009, 11:49 AM
imo if you sell a dog at 8-12 weeks, you would be unethical to spay or castrate before selling it ABM--there are consequences to neutering that early. About the best a breeder can do is have a non-breeding/neutering contract, but in the States at least, if the buyer is from another state, your chances of enforcing the contract are almost nil and prohibitively expensive to follow up legally. :shrug:

I understand what you are saying, but there are a lot of shelters here in Canada who have mandatory spay/neuter before adoption, would you consider those to be unethical too?

hazelrunpack
January 6th, 2009, 11:57 AM
[QUOTE=hazelrunpack;726218]People buying from legitimate breeders often want the pups early because bonding is easier and deeper with a pup you're raising than with an older dog you're adopting.

QUOTE]

I don't agree with this statement at all. I have had pups come in very young from 'breeders' (you know what I mean) that are young and horrible. You remember the chocolate lab pup?? It was not a bonding nor deep.

I have to tell you there is nothing better than getting a dog from the shelter (or any caged environment). The excitement of the dog getting out and the joy you feel collide like there is no other chemistry. The bonding I have had with older dogs (such as my Ben) was instant. My fosters are the same. I have a hard time seeing them off and they have a hard time leaving.
We have very strong bonds with the older dogs we've adopted, too, it's just a different 'flavor' of bond. Ember and Cole, having looked to us from such an early age, still tend to look at us more. When you're running through the woods, or tracking, or herding, that is an invaluable trait. Our other dogs are certainly controllable in the woods, but Ember and Cole tend to be our most 'attentive', is I guess a good way to put it.

It's always possible to get a 'lemon', but wasn't that lab too young when it was sold? Not socialized? I don't remember for sure...was this the food aggressive one? :o gak! hazel's memory :wall: Evan, although of a sweet and almost divinely loving temperament, died early of physical problems. An ethical breeder follows up and tries to correct those problems.

Those first 6 months are also invaluable for training. You miss windows in their development that make it more difficult to train them for certain tasks later, just as you would in a human child.

If we weren't keeping such a close eye on them in the woods or during training, I doubt we'd notice the difference. Probably having such a mix of dogs adopted at different ages makes the comparison possible. :shrug: But there are a lot of people I've talked to with working dogs that have noticed the same thing.

hazelrunpack
January 6th, 2009, 12:03 PM
I understand what you are saying, but there are a lot of shelters here in Canada who have mandatory spay/neuter before adoption, would you consider those to be unethical too?

I have a hard time with it. I can see the reason for it, but I'm also not a proponent of early spay/neuter if it can be avoided. For dogs already in a shelter, it certainly makes more sense since they are already a population in trouble.

But we've had health problems in some of our dogs that have been linked with neutering. Some of them have been life-enders. :shrug: So we try to err on the side of caution with our dogs--we neuter later in life to try to avoid some of the problems of early disruption of the hormonal system. We are also very very careful to not be responsible for unwanted litters in the meanwhile.

If I were a breeder, would I trust that all my buyers would also be responsible? No...and I could never breed because no one would be good enough for the pups we produced. :o And we know what hazel's house would look like then!!! :eek: Another coupla dozen dogs running around would require at least 4 more alteregos to take care of! :laughing:

pitgrrl
January 6th, 2009, 12:07 PM
I guess I dont know about the rescues up there, I forget most every is from Canada, but here ALL dogs and cats are spayed or neutered before being adopted out. And I'm talking about shelters... But all the rescues I've been to has a spay and neuter program too.
:shrug:


Thats not actually true. I've heard of a ton of rescues and shelters in the states that don't speuter before adoption out animals. The ethics of this are a different discussion all together, but the practice certainly isn't limited by country.

BenMax
January 6th, 2009, 12:17 PM
Thats not actually true. I've heard of a ton of rescues and shelters in the states that don't speuter before adoption out animals. The ethics of this are a different discussion all together, but the practice certainly isn't limited by country.

This is a true statement. Most animals are spayed and neutered however there are factors that hinder such as age or if a female is just finished a heat. They are risks however due to the overflow of unwanted animals they will be released without surgery. The incentive is 'money' back in order to draw the adoptive family back for the procedure. The problem I have seen is a loss of control on those animals that have been adopted out.

Rescues deal with less volume of adoption and animals - therefore they (rescues) have better control on those that have yet to be sterilized.

hazelrunpack
January 6th, 2009, 12:21 PM
Many rural shelters in the US (at least in WI, and likely in the rest of the country) are also run out of people's homes and get very little public money for support. Most of these orgs don't neuter before adoption, either, simply because they can't afford it. :shrug:

BenMax
January 6th, 2009, 12:26 PM
Many rural shelters in the US (at least in WI, and likely in the rest of the country) are also run out of people's homes and get very little public money for support. Most of these orgs don't neuter before adoption, either, simply because they can't afford it. :shrug:

I understand this Hazel and I feel for them but there still must be some guidelines if one wants to get into rescueing. The bottom line is that you must have some sort of cash flow. If you do not and cannot vet or sterilize then they should be forwarding the animals to a shelter that can do this.

I may sound cold but I have taken over before where these wonderful good hearted people could not afford to follow from A to Z. You know what I mean?

Love4himies
January 6th, 2009, 12:28 PM
I have a hard time with it. I can see the reason for it, but I'm also not a proponent of early spay/neuter if it can be avoided. For dogs already in a shelter, it certainly makes more sense since they are already a population in trouble.

But we've had health problems in some of our dogs that have been linked with neutering. Some of them have been life-enders. :shrug: So we try to err on the side of caution with our dogs--we neuter later in life to try to avoid some of the problems of early disruption of the hormonal system. We are also very very careful to not be responsible for unwanted litters in the meanwhile.

If I were a breeder, would I trust that all my buyers would also be responsible? No...and I could never breed because no one would be good enough for the pups we produced. :o And we know what hazel's house would look like then!!! :eek: Another coupla dozen dogs running around would require at least 4 more alteregos to take care of! :laughing:

If only all people were responsible, then shelters wouldn't have to do this. But we all know that's not so.... :sad:

bendyfoot
January 6th, 2009, 12:34 PM
Bendy's thoughts on some PPs in bullets (so as to avoid ranting:D)

- there is nothing wrong with purchasing a pet from a responsible, ethical breeder of purebreds. *note that "registered" does not equal "responsible", but that "responsible" is in most cases correlated to "registered"

- responsible breeders are not contributing to pet overpopulation, or producing dogs like hamburgers. Puppy millers and BYBs are (ie irresponsible breeders)

- people who purchase/obtain dogs from irresponsible breeders and their supporters (ie pet stores and brokers) are contributing to the problem.

-Education is the only thing that will stop this. Unfortunately, too many people are attracted to designer breeds or "cheap" dogs that can't be obtained from an ethical breeder.

- there are NO guarrantees that a mutt is going to be any healthier than a purebred, and to beleive otherwise is foolish. A mutt may inherit all, or none (impossible to predict in most cases with any certainty) of harmful or deliterious genes from its parents. That said, in many cases, mutts are being bred with no thought for the health of the offspring at all. In fact, mindless, irresponsible breeding of mutts is likely contributing in many ways to poor health and poor temperaments. Responsible breeders do everything in their power to produce only dogs sound in mind and body, and never include unsound dogs in their breeding programs (ie they're not the problem). In our house we have one mutt who has never (knock on wood) seen a vet for anything other than routine procedures after 7 years, and one (no point knocking) who is at the vets a few times a month. That's 50-50 odds, and boils down to pure dumb luck. (dang, so much for my bullets:laughing:)

- IMO, unless they are part of a responsible breeding program or there is an underlying medical condition preventing it, all dogs should be neutered. This should be done at a time AGREED UPON VIA A WRITTEN CONTRACT between the pet owner and the breeder/rescue. I personally don't agree with neutering before the age of 6 months and for larger breeds would prefer to wait until at least a year. I also think that rescues/breeders should be responsible for VERIFYING that the animal has been neutered within the designated time frame, and reserve the right to seize the animal if the conditions stipulated in the contract have not been met.

AmericanBullMom
January 6th, 2009, 12:39 PM
Thats not actually true. I've heard of a ton of rescues and shelters in the states that don't speuter before adoption out animals. The ethics of this are a different discussion all together, but the practice certainly isn't limited by country.

I was just saying the ones that I've been to and dealt with personally have all had spay and neuter programs.
Hopefully one day they ALL will have the money and means to spay and neuter all the rescue and shelter dogs!:fingerscr

AmericanBullMom
January 6th, 2009, 12:46 PM
I understand this Hazel and I feel for them but there still must be some guidelines if one wants to get into rescueing. The bottom line is that you must have some sort of cash flow. If you do not and cannot vet or sterilize then they should be forwarding the animals to a shelter that can do this.

I may sound cold but I have taken over before where these wonderful good hearted people could not afford to follow from A to Z. You know what I mean?

I second this! People may have great intentions, but IMO, if you adopting out intact dogs who can aid in the overpopulation of dogs and cats, then you're really not helping.:o

Dekka
January 6th, 2009, 12:46 PM
And for those who may breed at sometime....

If you are putting a no breeding clause in your contract (ie for any non breeding prospect) state WHAT is the concequence of non s/n. I ran into that issue with the person who had been nice and fairly normal (Lol for a dog person ;) ) turned into a fruit loop. I said the dog must be neutered before 2 and not bred... but I never specified what would happen if she didn't. Same as I didn't say what would happen if she gave the dog up.. but not to me (it says you MUST give the dog back to me if you can't keep it)

hazelrunpack
January 6th, 2009, 12:56 PM
I understand this Hazel and I feel for them but there still must be some guidelines if one wants to get into rescueing. The bottom line is that you must have some sort of cash flow. If you do not and cannot vet or sterilize then they should be forwarding the animals to a shelter that can do this.

I may sound cold but I have taken over before where these wonderful good hearted people could not afford to follow from A to Z. You know what I mean?

Oh, I agree. But sometimes there is a need where there are no funds and now way to get them. One county shelter I know of is run entirely out of a woman's house. Many of the animals that come to her are in need of medical attention, which she pays out of pocket and from the few private donations she can garner. Problem is, she serves the poorly populated rural areas of the county and donations are very scarce, so she's taking a huge loss every year. She works her day job to support the shelter and pay her bills.

If she ever gets to the point where she can't afford to do what she does, she will close down. Then the county will be left with nothing. :sad:

If you make a licensing rule and demand neuter before adoption, you've just put her out of business. :shrug: So what's the solution? I don't have one. Wish to heck I did!

When so many of the shelters are struggling just to get medical care for and feed the animals, neutering them all before adoption is a pipe dream. It's different in the cities where public money is possible and there's a larger population base to make donations. And even in the cities, funds are hard to come by. :sad: Especially in hard times when people's priorities are in feeding themselves and taking care of their own.

If only all people were responsible, then shelters wouldn't have to do this. But we all know that's not so.... :sad:

I agree. And for that reason you won't find me telling any shelter that practices early neutering that they shouldn't do it.

But human irresponsibility is exactly what has created the problem in the first place. :sad:

NoahGrey
January 6th, 2009, 04:03 PM
Another thread got me thinking.

The anti-breeder sentiment is possibly making the problem worse. Now bear with me through this.

First off I have to say I do support rescue and have and do foster for the JRTRO and helped rehab dogs who were due to be PTS. When we wanted a BC we adopted from BC rescue of Ontario. I do breed JRTs very occasionally because there are so many JRTs needing homes already (so I also don't breed for the pet market)

Now there are two groups of anti breeder people. People who support PETA and want no more pets of any kind period. Those people are just wackjobs we can forget about them for the time being.

Then there are people who say no more breeding till all the dogs in shelters find homes.

Ok lets talk about that.

We all know that until people stop buying impulse puppies at pet stores and are more educated about where to find a puppy the Millers and BYB will still be in business. This is where the rescue and shelter dogs come from. IMO BYB and Millers don't care about dogs or the plight of the over population problem. So they are not going to slow down production.. why should they. They just sell them to people who dump them in shelters and rescues. They still get the cash just the same.

The shelters and rescues are just cleaning up other people's messes. As long as there are those who will jump in and clean up the messes what insentive does the breeder of those dogs have to stop? Shelters and rescues give a place for people to 'feel good' about dumping their dogs. They delude themselves into thinking that 9 year old arthritic Fluffy will find a great home that can look after his health problems, or that Sharkie the biting terrier who messes on the floor will find someone who can train him.

The issue is we need to educate the public. By sending telling them to just adopt and save a life and to not go to a breeder is good for the dog they get.. but is it good for dogs? We tell people not to go to a BYB or get from a pet store. We list health problems temperament problems bad breedign practicies etc etc... yet that is the dog they adopt! (of course all don't have issues.. but all byb or milled dogs don't either.. you just have a much higher chance) How do we educate the public without shoot ourselves in the foot?

And realistically if those breeders who DO care about dogs (AKA all the good and ethical breeders who will do everything in their power to keep pups out of shelters etc) stop breeding... what happens when they do want to start breeding again? What happens to all those health tested proven bloodlines? If our goal is to have a happy well adjusted healthy dog population we need to keep the good breeders going and stop the bad ones. Right now the anti-breeder types are supporting the bad breeders indirectly and harming the good ones.

How do we fix this? Educating the public is difficult. Dogs are not objects and its not their fault they were bred, but we need to some how stop making it so easy for the Millers to pump out dogs.

The only idea I have had is to mandate that all pups sold in petstores are microchipped. The name of the breeder MUST stay on the microchip as a second name. That way if the dog ever gets sent to a shelter the dog can be shipped back to the breeder (and a follow up to see what they did with the dog... I am not against painless euthanasia after a period of looking for a home for an unwanted dog.. its better than being a stray or living their life in a cage). If every unwanted dog got returned to the breeder that might curb the excess production of pups.

Not that you could make this happen... if the people who drop off Fluffy or Sharkie had to watch their 'beloved' pet being euthed it might make dumping them a little harder to do.

Any one have any suggestions.. I am at a loss.

First of all I have to say a couple of your comments frustate me. experically your view on shelters. First of all I work for a shelter and you comment about shelters give a place for people. to make them "feel good" about dumping animals. Are you serious???? Please, people have to pay consquiences when dumping their pet. Also, your comment about cleaning up peoples messes and that you think that shelters should stop doing this. Ok, so what..do you want hundreds, thousands of animals just left outside to survive on their own, looking for food, getting into fights with other animals, get hit by cars, meet up with people who do not have the best intentions for them, brave the weather elements, have no shelter..in the hopes that this will make people stop. Shelters take in animals that are unwanted and provide them with love, affection, vet care, food, shelter, water, until they can find their forever home.

I am sorry but why do you breed? for money? even if you are only doing it once a year...you are contributing to the pet overpopulation. Your comment about breeding occassionally, because there are so many Jacks needing homes..huh??? I am lost. If there are so many jacks needing homes, WHY breed more??? For profit? This is the main reason why people breed...if they were only thinking about bettering the breed, the puppies would come at no cost.

And your comment about if the owners has to watch their pet being put down, they would think twice about dumping it. Not a chance. People who think about dumping their pet, do not love their pet or care about them.

And yes, I am one of those people that think that people who breed contribute to the pet overpopulation..simply put. Support shelters and rescues and give a homeless animal a forever home.

ACO22

Dekka
January 6th, 2009, 04:40 PM
First off you need to read my posts.

First of all I have to say a couple of your comments frustate me. experically your view on shelters. First of all I work for a shelter and you comment about shelters give a place for people. to make them "feel good" about dumping animals. Are you serious???? Please, people have to pay consquiences when dumping their pet.
ACO22

Yes often people get to 'feel good' about dumping their dog. The shelter workers I know don't want to scare the people off so they end up dumping their pets out in the country or just turning them loose. Even if they are upfront about Fluffy's chances of being adopted the people often still cling to the belief that Fluffy will find a home.



Also, your comment about cleaning up peoples messes and that you think that shelters should stop doing this.

No if you read my post you will know I work with and foster for the JRTRO.. I do support shelters and rescues and recently rescued a BC. I never said stop. I said its not the dog's fault they were born. This is why I say we have a problem..

Ok, so what..do you want hundreds, thousands of animals just left outside to survive on their own, looking for food, getting into fights with other animals, brave the weather elements, have no shelter..in the hopes that this will make people stop. Shelters take in animals that are unwanted and provide them with love, affection, vet care, food, shelter, water, until they can find their forever home.

Yep and I have helped transport as well as train and foster. I have donated money to many breed rescues and our local no kill shelter (LAWS) I offer discounts in my classes to people who have a newly adopted rescue or shelter dog.

These dogs need not to have been produced in the first place. They need to have not been bought by the idiots who dumped them. How do we accomplish this? I don't know.. that is what this thread is meant to discuss.

I am sorry but why do you breed? for money? even if you are only doing it once a year...you are contributing to the pet overpopulation.

I don't breed even once a year. More like once ever 2-3 years. I no I don't think I am. None of my dogs will ever end up in rescues or shelters. Not everyone wants to adopt a dog. Some people want a working dog, or a health tested temperament tested performance dog. I do point more people to the JRTRO than I ever sell... by a long shot.

So you are anti breeding...

I did post why I bred.. but I will explain.. I breed to keep the working traits of the JRT, to produce dogs for working/performance homes. To keep the genetic material of my chosen breed safe for future generations to enjoy the companionship of this fantastic breed.

My dogs are mulit titled (one of my dogs was the national champion in both GTG (earth dog) and Trailing and Locating this year) they do obedience, agility, hunting, GTG, dock dogs, rally, racing. They hang out on the farm, keep me company and sleep in my bed. I want future people to be able to enjoy these fantastic terriers the same way I do. (lol don't we all think we have the best dogs ever!)

What do you propose breeders do? Watch all the hard work of finding and keeping lines clean disappear? Watch only byb and millers produce their beloved dogs? By this sentiment you are enabling the bad breeders. They will then be the only game in town. Why should I as a breeder/dog owner have to give up my breed and dog's heritage just cause the millers are pumping out horrid versions of my breed. Breeders hold the genetic material of dogs in trust for future generations. You are asking us to give that precious 'clean' genetic material up in favour of what the byb/millers are producing.

I love my working JRTs.. people have worked long and hard to keep this breed what it is.. I am not planning on dropping the ball.

And your comment about if the owners has to watch their pet being put down, they would think twice about dumping it. Not a chance. People who think about dumping their pet, do not love their pet or care about them.

ACO22

This is not true. I do talk to people you know. They DO believe that someone will come and love their dog. I have seen people in tears as they give up their dog. While they may not love their dog they way we do.. they do care and have deluded themselves into thinking that someone will come and look after their pet.

NoahGrey
January 6th, 2009, 04:47 PM
This is not true. I do talk to people you know. They DO believe that someone will come and love their dog. I have seen people in tears as they give up their dog. While they may not love their dog they way we do.. they do care and have deluded themselves into thinking that someone will come and look after their pet.

I think you are talking about people surrendering their pets, rather then "dumping". People who surrender their pets are bring responsible. People who just dump their pets at the shelter..usually do after hours, when the office is closed are irresponsible. People come into our shelter all the time to surrender their pets, because for whatever reason they can no longer take care of them. I also have seen people break down in tears. And then there are the people that just dump their pet at the door. These are the people who you want to scream at.

ACO22

Dekka
January 6th, 2009, 04:57 PM
And to address your edit.

The JRTs that need homes are NOT the JRTs I am producing. The JRTs that tend to need homes are the short legged puddin types. They tend to be the lower drive less hunting types. Their conformation isn't conducive to staying sound long term playing as hard as we do around here.

They often don't have the correct temperament. Some are waaayyy to skittish, some have issues that require minimal contact with the general public. Some have health issues that make them fine as pets but not as performance dogs. Most don't have what it takes to work be it physically or mentally.

Many of the JRTs needing homes will make good pets. But has I have said I am not breeding for the pet market. If you call me saying you are looking for a JRT.. I will ask you lots of questions. Unless you tell me you want a JRT who will work, or you are looking for a top end agility/flyball dog I will send you to the rescue. I will tell you all about the breed and maybe even dissuade you from getting a JRT all together if you don't seem prepared for one.

I looked in my photbucket to see if I had pics of dogs I had rescued, I don't seem to have many posted.
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd125/Grey-Run/joeynice.jpg

here is an example and a dog in rescue right now
http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/photoView.cgi?petid=12569552

This is Joey. He is 13.5 inches tall nearly 16 inches long and 26 pounds (not fat at all!) His toes point out and his knees touch. While he will make a good pet (looonnng story behind him.. he would have made a great pet.. but that is another thread) Agility is not likely going to be his friend.. he is drivey and would try to go fast. He couldnt' get his chest down a hole even if he had the instinct to do so.

Compare him to Kaiden.. who is 13.25 inches tall and weighs 10 pounds less.
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd125/Grey-Run/Kaidenleftside.jpg

He is the father of Dekka
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd125/Grey-Run/Dekka-left-sideweb.jpg

See how leggy and athletic they look? A JRT should be square with a small flexible chest. How many dogs that come into rescue look like that? NOT MANY. Most of the JRTs who come into rescue look like this dog...
http://www.mightyjacks.com/images/100_26002.jpg
or this one
http://bp2.blogger.com/_PGvSoaafXiI/R8tBgfa4QMI/AAAAAAAABxk/fEaujY0HuCs/s1600-h/puddin.JPG

this is the link to dogs in the rescue right now.. do any of them look similar to the athletic and well built dogs that a JRT is supposed to be?
http://www.russellrescue.org/index.php

these dogs will make fantastic pets for many people. But they are not good examples of the breed. I will do everything I can to make sure these dogs get a chance a great home... but that won't stop me from loving the breed.

I breed to help preserve the bloodlines to help keep the correct and HEALTHY structure and correct temperament.

Dekka
January 6th, 2009, 05:12 PM
To me if you are taking your dog to a shelter you are dumping it.

You should take it back to the breeder or rescue you got it from. If it has health issues that you can't look after then PTS it while holding it in the loving arms that pet trusts.. don't make your pets last days stressful and scary.

If you can't handle your dog.. well you should have trained it, taken classes. If you bought from a good breeder you could give it back to them instead of burdening shelters with it.

The only case where I am ok with people dumping dogs is if they didn't get their dog from a good breeder or rescue and they are in a horrible situation and have no where else to put the dog(abused relationship, need to be in a home.. etc etc)

If it was only the last case scenario.. how few dogs we would have in rescues and shelters.....

mafiaprincess
January 6th, 2009, 05:25 PM
A shelter dog is A LOT less likely to have any genetic issues. And will probably be 95% healthier throughout its life than a Pure-Bred Dog. You can remove all the dogs that have bad temprements, and some genetic issues from your breeding stock, and then end up with 2-3 dogs that are "perfect"... and probably so closely related that the puppies will have 7 legs.

BYBs ARE supplying petstores... I guess I should have called it a PuppyMill, but in my opinion PuppyMills are operated by BYBs.

There is nothing to support that a shelter dog will be healthier. The same way people can spout off all they'd like that mutts healthier. Hybrid vigor is often brought up except that would mean having to cross species not breeds to get the genetic diversity to help. Quoting random percentages based on no facts doesn't help anyone. Considering what sort of stock many shelter dogs come from, it would be probable that they would be less healthy.. not healthier..

Are the puppies neuterd and spayed before being sold? YOU might be a responsible breeder, but whose to say the person you sold the dog to is going to be as wonderful.. You can say that you do as much background checking as you want, but its way easy for a person to lie.

A breeder breeding for performance dogs like the OP wouldn't be spaying or neutering puppies at a prepubescent age. The lack of hormones screws up growth when at the very least performance dogs would need it. Anyone can screen all they like and there are no guarantees. Sadly, you create as good a contract as you can, and you do put monetary clauses in it for breaking the rules. Surrender it seems cannot be enforced. Monetary damages on the other hand can. Large enough damages people are often scared into not breaking the contract.

Love4himies
January 6th, 2009, 05:35 PM
This is a true statement. Most animals are spayed and neutered however there are factors that hinder such as age or if a female is just finished a heat. They are risks however due to the overflow of unwanted animals they will be released without surgery. The incentive is 'money' back in order to draw the adoptive family back for the procedure. The problem I have seen is a loss of control on those animals that have been adopted out.

Rescues deal with less volume of adoption and animals - therefore they (rescues) have better control on those that have yet to be sterilized.

You are right BenMax, Humane Societies and SPCA branches just done have the funds to hire people to police adoptions to ensure spaying and neutering are being done, therefore they make it policy that animals are done before adoption.

Love4himies
January 6th, 2009, 06:16 PM
IMO anybody who allows their dog/cat to breed is contributing to the pet overpopulation. They are producing dogs/cats while others are dying in shelters.

I too took offense to your comment about shelters contributing to the continuing of byb and puppymills. If it wasn't for them there would be alot more dying on the streets because most people who dump their pets, don't care about them.

Also, there is no way any breeder can guarantee their pup/kitten will not end up in a shelter unless the breeder follows every adopter around.

Dekka
January 6th, 2009, 06:34 PM
IMO anybody who allows their dog/cat to breed is contributing to the pet overpopulation. They are producing dogs/cats while others are dying in shelters.

I too took offense to your comment about shelters contributing to the continuing of byb and puppymills. If it wasn't for them there would be alot more dying on the streets because most people who dump their pets, don't care about them.

Also, there is no way any breeder can guarantee their pup/kitten will not end up in a shelter unless the breeder follows every adopter around.

Why take offence? It is what it is... its a problem that needs solving. I thought the issue was to stop pets being dumped in shelters... not keeping the shelters going.

IMO in an ideal world there would be no need for shelters or so little need they would be mostly empty.

So far the people who are anti breeder still haven't answered my questions.

Realistically if all the people who care about dogs stop breeding do you think there will be any less dogs in shelters? Good breeders dogs don't end up in shelters sooo not I am pretty sure no.

For those people who don't want people to breed.. are you against breeding dogs to be purebred or healthier or to do a specific job.. or would you rather people just let mutts breed when ever people want dogs again?

Are you against rare breeds and are cool with whole breeds disapearing?

Why not fix the problem not the symptom.. cause realistically until the people quit buying petstore dogs and byb dogs there will always be a pet over population.

So I disagree that I am contributing to it. The people who have my dogs (lol all 3 litters of them) are not the sort who would have adopted anyway. They were looking for something specific that is not likely to be found in shelters or rescues.

I do agree that if you are breeding dogs that are the same as dogs dying in shelters then yes you are creating part of the problem (see my posts in the Shilo thread.. there is nothing those dogs do that is better than any big fluffy dog in a rescue or a shelter.. making up a breed for no reason other than to breed it is IMO silly)

babymomma
January 6th, 2009, 06:35 PM
To the ones that are against ALL breeders.

WHo here likes golden retreivers? All of us i would imagine. What would happen to goldens if there were no responsiblle breeders? ... The breed of dog would likely dissapear after a while.


Anybody like German shepherds? They'd be gone too, if all breeders, including the responsible breeders were banned.


I take great offense to those of you who dont even support the TRULY ETHICAL AND RESPONSIBLE breeders. I like German sheoherds. That breed is my passion. But I cant get the breed of dog that i love because stupid people are dumping dogs in shelters. And stupid BYBS and millers are producing so many dogs yearly? So because these responsible breeders are "contributing to the pet overpopulation" I shouldnt buy from them, instead I should adopt? You seem to be bashing the well bred dogs. BUt im sure i would be bashed if i came here and said i dont like mutts from shelters. Its no different. I have a very strong bond with keelys breeder and it hurts me that some of you feel this way about her. She is such a wonderful caring person that does everything for her dogs and the yorkie breed. But she is a problem?

babymomma
January 6th, 2009, 06:39 PM
[QUOTE=AmericanBullMom;726161]

If you're buying a nice family pet, one thats going to sit in your lap, cuddle on the couch, play with the kids, and live to be as old as mother nature intended, WHY on Dog's Green Earth do you need a pure-bred dog. Or even\.

/QUOTE]

I have a purebred dog. Simply for a pet. But its wrong of me to love the breed and want to own one for their personality and traits? This statment is absolutely appauling. I cant even belive it was said. Im sorry Im such a horrible monster for wanting a Healthy, purebred FAMILY dog, that serves no purpose at all. Thank you for that.

lUvMyLaB<3
January 6th, 2009, 06:55 PM
I absolutly agree that GOOD breeders are very very important to dogs as a whole, they are NOT the problem. I wanted a lab for a long long time, and the problem with many of the poular breeds is that they become too poular for their own good, wanna know how bad it is? When I have been out in public with my dog several times I have been asked 'what kind of dog is that, a lab crossed with what?' Because they have been so overbred by irresponsible people that the vast majority of the population doesn't even know what a lab looks like!! She is 21.5 inches tall, perfectly within the breed standard but so many people think she is too small for the breed, people think labs should be tall and skinny with long thin tails that are carried high, and this is false. It is not just the look of the lab that has been runined but the temperment too. That was what I wanted, a lab that could act like a lab. And my lab is PERFECT :) there are labs for sale all over every paper everywhere. people calling them 'purebred' even though they are not and they should NOT be usuing that word ( whole nuther topic..)

What is needed is EDUCATION, I think most people, once they understand, do make the right choice! SAD as it is shelters are SO VERY important, but I know the humane society here is picky about who they adopt to, so there are some people that are turned away from adopting and then turn around and get a BYB dog.... again education i think needs to be the key..

The breeder that I got my lady from was uber picky about who got a pup, serveral people were refused a dog.. He phoned references, phoned my hubbies work.. ect.. and we had to visit the puppy at least once a week until she was ready to go home. If we could not commit to that then we could not commit to the life of the dog, and I agree and we LOVED the puppy visits! 13 IDENTICAL puppies all over you how fun! Plus the contract, and their name is still on her microchip.

It isn't fair to end the breeds as we know it because of some hearless losers. They are the ones that should stop breeding not breeders, and the true hand is in ht people looking for a puppy, if they would educate themselves and research research research... Pet stores need to STOP. You have no idea how many times I have had my head ripped off for saying that.. I think it is disgusting to put a puppy on a shelf like a can of soup! How can any puppy THRIVE in that condition?? Get rid of puppies in stores and we are one step closer... regulate how many puppies a person can sell.. I know here there is a law that you can only sell so many cars in a year, like 3 i think and then you would need a dealers lisence.. why can we not do that with animals too? another step closer.. If we can just educate people, make little steps forward then at least we have some chance of reaching or goal....

bendyfoot
January 6th, 2009, 07:17 PM
luvmylab, I think you've hit on a lot of very important and vital issues here.

1. responsible breeders are not the problem

2. it should be ILLEGAL to sell pets in pet stores

3. any breeder of pets should be licensed, with limitations on #litters and # dogs in possession at any one time, and fined HEAVILY if this was violated

4. For that matter, pet OWNERS should be liscenced.

On these last two points, I think it's about freaking time goverments at all levels step up and address this. I know there are a lot people out there who would whine and moan about gov involvement in our lives, but we've obviously proven ourselves (generally) to be incapable of being responsible with our companion animals. Legislation needs to be put in place, and penalties need to be meaningful and applied. IMO, the only people who would complain about this are folks who aren't already doing right by their critters.

babymomma
January 6th, 2009, 07:20 PM
IMO, the only people who would complain about this are folks who aren't already doing right by their critters.


:thumbs up:thumbs up:thumbs up:thumbs up


Your whole post was great, but that last sentance is sooooooo true

flipgirl4
January 6th, 2009, 07:20 PM
Everyone is making great points. I agree, unless the demand is eliminated, the puppy mills and BYB's will always exist. I guess a good start would be to make it illegal to sell pets at pet stores. The problem is....money. If breeders were to be regulated and licensed, who is going to pay those people who check licences etc.? I find it ridiculous that we have to get a licence for our dogs every year for what? So they can find my dog for me? I think NOT. Why don't they use that money for something good?

Anyway, before I get myself onto another tangent, regulating breeders is one thing, controlling people's need for instant gratification is another. Most people, see a dog or cat or bird as a pet and nothing else. Not a living being who deserves love, healthy food, a place to sleep. They are just an extra. Look at all the pets being dumped on shelters in the U.S....I'm sure for some of the families, it was a hard decision to make but for others, the dog was the first to go. Back to my original point however, when someone sees a cute puppy or kitten in the pet store window, they don't want to wait to find out if the breeder is reputable or if testing was done. They want that puppy right NOW! Their kids are begging for a pet and promising they'll take care of it but when they take it home and suddenly it has health problems or the kids don't take care of it, it's dumped. Education is important, I totally agree. But there are those who would call us 'snobs' who think we know more than others. We may or may not, but we more likely care about and see the bigger picture.

I'm grateful that there are shelters out there to help animals out. If they weren't there, there would be stray dogs and cats everywhere, possibly spreading disease. And there also wouldn't be the opportunity for people to adopt a dog or cat that would otherwise not have a chance in hell of surviving.

I think part of pet ownership would be to have a spay/neuter contract with every pet sold. Any pet that isn't would have to have an agreement with the regulating body that they are certifiably healthy breeding stock and/or show dogs/cats. I work at an animal hospital and a guy came in with his sister's puppy. He was a lab cross. The guy said he also had a siberian husky. He asked if the puppy was old enough to have babies. I said yes but I wouldn't breed her at 6 months. He then asked if he could let his dog 'have a go' at the puppy but not let them lock? Like how the heck are you going to stop a siberian husky or even a chihuahua stop from locking? I said I guess you could try but I wouldn't. How about getting her spayed? But I want to breed her, was his response. Ugh. He was also asking a whole bunch of questions which most people would know. Yet he wants to breed his sister's dog. I don't think any amount of education would get through to this guy.

Anyway, I also think that people should be screened before they are able to own a pet. I also tutor kids and one kid said he got a puppy for Christmas. Well apparently, they also have 2 other dogs and cats I think. His family hits the dogs to train them. "They're just trying to train him!" I told him there are better ways to train dogs and one of the things his family should have done was to introduce the dogs slowly. In one ear and out the other. But it should be like adopting a child. Just like some people shouldn't have kids, some people shouldn't have animals.

This ignorance doesn't just apply to pet ownership. I was watching fifth estate last night and they had a story about chimpanzees. They talked about the chimps who are trained to be in movies and how they train them and what happens to them after they reach an age when they are uncontrollable. They talked about how they would take the babies from their mothers, hit and punch them until they got the response they wanted. And then after they reached that 'age', they just shipped them off to live in a dirty cage for the rest of their lives. One of the trainers just dismissed it as being a part of life. Whose life? Definitely not that of the chimps! I will never ever watch or pay for a movie with chimps again. I shudder to think of how those baby chimps were trained for that old Pepsi commercial where they work together to get a can of Pepsi from the machine and give it to the lab worker...

Anyways, I've taken up a lot of your time and space but thanks for reading my rant.....I really could go on and on but good thread!

Dekka
January 6th, 2009, 07:24 PM
Good points luvmylab and Bendyfoot

3. any breeder of pets should be licensed, with limitations on #litters and # dogs in possession at any one time, and fined HEAVILY if this was violated

TOTALLY agree with whats quoted in blue... But if a breeder fosters or keeps dogs for the rescue what is quoted in red can be tricky. I have had as many as 13 JRTs at once, but only 3 of those were breeding stock. Right now I have 4 JRTs and only 2 are breeding stock. Kaiden isn't likely to be bred again, but has his parts as he is such a well mannered boy. Dekka is intact but she is almost 4 and as much as I want her grandchildren I am having issues approving homes for the pups (which I do before I breed)

lUvMyLaB<3
January 6th, 2009, 07:33 PM
augh your chimpanzee story makes me want to cry.. that is the sickest kind of sick, it is one thing to be talking about the welfare of our domestic animals but all the wild animals in captivity is a who 'nuther heatbreaking sickening sadding story..

I know education is not the only answer, but one that does have a bit of an impact and one we can have a bit of control with, like I said, steps... because there is not only one answer... Absolutly I think there should be a license to sell any animal and I don't mean one were you go to an office pay $5 and sign on the dotted line.... the guy that was in your clinic sounds like a real winner!

Enforcement is also a problem. I know of a place.. real well.. know them really well... they have a business on their property that involves animals.. all kinds of animals.. anyway also on said property they have 2 older dogs that live in an outdoor kennel NEVER comming out and right now it is -40 and they have only snow for water. There is a 15 year old girl at said home that breeds rabbits for pet stores... 15 died the other day, there are 4 horses, also only snow for water.. there is all kinds of public comming out to this animal business that is on the property and some people ahve seen the dogs and rabbits OH and they also breed rodents, mice, rats, hamsters, guinea pigs ect.. anywho there was even a vet that was there as a customer and they asked her to look at the rabbits, she said they look ok, they cannot afford to take a rabbit into the vet they said.. oh well.. they don't care. There have been thousands of people out there and I know some have seen the conditions of these other animals, they have been reported, and checked out, and NOTHING happens!!!!!!! NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! what can a person do? When NO authority will do ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!!

bendyfoot
January 6th, 2009, 07:37 PM
flipgirl, you raise some good points. I just wanted to comment on your first item, regarding licensing and the costs of following up. Charge a 500$ ownership fee, and charge a $5000 breeder fee (or something). It'll cut down on the number of people randomly getting dogs spontaneously with little thought for what they're getting or from where, and it'll cut down on the number of dummies breeding their dogs. Waive the ownership fee or offer a discount for adopting a dog from rescue/shelter.

Use THAT money to hire a few people to check up on those liscences. :2cents:

Dekka
January 6th, 2009, 07:46 PM
flipgirl, you raise some good points. I just wanted to comment on your first item, regarding licensing and the costs of following up. Charge a 500$ ownership fee, and charge a $5000 breeder fee (or something). It'll cut down on the number of people randomly getting dogs spontaneously with little thought for what they're getting or from where, and it'll cut down on the number of dummies breeding their dogs. Waive the ownership fee or offer a discount for adopting a dog from rescue/shelter.

Use THAT money to hire a few people to check up on those liscences. :2cents:


If you were to charge a huge breeder fee you would likely get rid of the good breeders not the bad ones. I can tell you I absolutely loose money breeding. Not a lot, but a few hundred dollars. If I had to pay thousands for the privilage of loosing a few hundred I likely wouldn't. Or it would mean less titles and such on my dogs.

However the millers and BYB who feed crap food, minimal vet care, no health testing, no titles.. they would likely be able to stay in business.

I am not against a course, or a small licence fee that also involves some kind of testing etc.. Proof that your dogs are all under vet care etc (that could all be done on the internet.. so should be fairly cheap)

aslan
January 6th, 2009, 07:52 PM
another suggestion is that all animals, of a certain age leaving a shelter be spayed or neutered, under the age an appt made for the surgery at the right time. The person misses the apt, then the animal is removed from the home, fixed and put up for adoption.

bendyfoot
January 6th, 2009, 07:58 PM
I did just pull those numbers out of the air, and I understand that responsible breeders aren't exactly raking in the dough:laughing: but there has to be a DETERRENT of some kind IMO to stop people who are not in it for the interests of the dogs from producing puppies (or cats or iguanas or whatever). Money is a pretty good deterrent for some people :shrug: I don't know what another option would be... other than routine auditing/inspections....:shrug: Again, which would have to be linked to much more restrictive/stringent legislation.

Oh, and on the other point about the # of dogs you could have...I do see your point. Of course, any legislations could have a clause to permit different numbers for rescues/shelters (and also to distinguish between the personal pets and the temporary rescues belonging to a single individual)...and since most legislations are "living documents" and hopefully, the need to have that many animals in rescue at any time would be reduced over time, you could also write in the requirement for routine reviews/evaluations of the regulation and determine those numbers were still relevant/appropriate.

I say the feds ask pets.ca members to form a working group on this issue to develop new legislation, whaddaya say?:D

hazelrunpack
January 6th, 2009, 08:28 PM
I'd love to see a working group on this issue, bendyfoot. :highfive: I've yet to see a group of politicians come up with a good legislative solution :frustrated:

Frenchy
January 6th, 2009, 08:46 PM
It's late and I'm tired , so I'll keep this short.

Yes I am against breeding , maybe not from ethical breeders but they are very few of them ! So far , I only know of one ! Our rescue have this thing about telling people who bought their dogs from a breeder , to call them before they give us the dogs , because , good breeders are suppose to take them back right ? Well well , what do you know , all the breeders are saying to those people : nope , that's ok , I don't want the dog back , call the rescue. :frustrated:

Even worse , many people called their breeders first , the breeders referred them to us !!! Thank you very much ! So they're the ones that make the money but we're getting their "dumpies" .... I have yet to meet these so called "ethical breeders" ! :rolleyes:

Dekka
January 6th, 2009, 08:57 PM
It's late and I'm tired , so I'll keep this short.

Yes I am against breeding , maybe not from ethical breeders but they are very few of them ! So far , I only know of one ! Our rescue have this thing about telling people who bought their dogs from a breeder , to call them before they give us the dogs , because , good breeders are suppose to take them back right ? Well well , what do you know , all the breeders are saying to those people : nope , that's ok , I don't want the dog back , call the rescue. :frustrated:

Even worse , many people called their breeders first , the breeders referred them to us !!! Thank you very much ! So they're the ones that make the money but we're getting their "dumpies" .... I have yet to meet these so called "ethical breeders" ! :rolleyes:

That is absolutely horrible. I was prepared to go to court to get one of ours back!!! The owner wanted to dump him on rescue. Rescue told her I would take the dog back.. no she didn't want me to have the dog back. I told rescue to take it and as soon as she handed the dog over to call me and I would be right there to pick it up. And I did.

With the JRTCC you must sign a code of ethics to be a club breeder. One of the things in the code is that you MUST take pups back. Does your breed club have a code of ethics the breeders all must sign? Do they sign it and still ignore it.

Horrible horrible people!!!!

Frenchy
January 6th, 2009, 09:21 PM
Does your breed club have a code of ethics the breeders all must sign?

omg I'm not with any breed club ! :eek: I'm with rescues.

mafiaprincess
January 6th, 2009, 09:32 PM
I think she assumes you are into mainly golden rescue.. Hence there would be a breed club, even though you aren't a member, these breeders, soem would be.

Frenchy
January 6th, 2009, 09:39 PM
I foster for 2 rescues , one golden , and one "any breeds". I'm not part of any other groups. Only rescues.

Dekka
January 6th, 2009, 09:45 PM
With JRTs the rescue (the JRTRO) is affiliated with the breed club (the JRTCC). They both support each other and there is usually a representative of the rescue on the JRTCC board of directors.

We take our rescue pretty seriously.

So if you rescue goldens.. then your breed club would be the Golden Retriever of Canada. What are they doing about those breeders?

Love4himies
January 7th, 2009, 07:27 AM
another suggestion is that all animals, of a certain age leaving a shelter be spayed or neutered, under the age an appt made for the surgery at the right time. The person misses the apt, then the animal is removed from the home, fixed and put up for adoption.

Shelters just don't have the manpower to to do this, especially in the smaller communities. At the shelter I volunteer for, they can't even get enough volunteers to clean cages, let alone do policing. So they ensure all pets are spayed/neutered before being adopted out.

Love4himies
January 7th, 2009, 08:05 AM
Dekka, I do share your concern about great lines going extinct should breeding be banned. I don't think anybody wants breeding to be banned for good because all cats and dogs would become extinct. I do believe that breeders could stop for a couple of years until the pet population gets under control (yes ban puppymills for good :evil:). Stopping for a couple of years would not eliminate good lines. BTW, I am not specifically talking about you, but breeders in general. I stand by my opinion that every pup/kitten that is born, there is one who is PTS, I don't care who the breeder is.

I agree education is key. Oprah's show on puppymills did do alot of good, but the public needs constant reminding of the horrid conditions these dogs and cats live in. The pictures soon fade from our memories and are lost in brains when people see that cute puppy in the window. Even people who are educated about byb and puppymills still buy from them because they think they are rescuing a puppy. But in reality what they are doing is allowing the momma to continue to breed another litter. Economics of supply and demand must also must be included in the education process. No demand, no supply. To get the media interested enough to do these stories is the problem.

I have to ask you if you have ever volunteered for a humane society or SPCA? They don't only take in surrendered pets, but strays, some who are pregnant. These strays would probably have died a very slow death outside had there not been a shelter for them.

Have you ever looked into a dogs/cats eye and know if they are not adopted today, they will be PTS and all the while, you have a pregnant dog at home?

Dekka
January 7th, 2009, 08:55 AM
I have to ask you if you have ever volunteered for a humane society or SPCA? They don't only take in surrendered pets, but strays, some who are pregnant. These strays would probably have died a very slow death outside had there not been a shelter for them.

Yes I have. But if people were educated there would be much less in the way of strays. As I said wouldn't the goal for the shelters to be nearly empty?

Have you ever looked into a dogs/cats eye and know if they are not adopted today, they will be PTS and all the while, you have a pregnant dog at home?

Umm well yes and no. As I have said before the people buying my dogs are not going to be going to a shelter or rescue to get one. So the mutt in the shelter will die regardless (very sad but true) unless someone wants it. Where is the person who brought the pup into the world? That to me is the far greater tragedy.

For the people who produce dozens of pups a year hoping for that confomation prospect (or any other show dog) and pet out the rest to me are doing a disservice. Many (not all) of those puppy buyers would have been happy with a shelter dog.

I often don't breed for years at at time. My last litter was nearly 3 years ago. Dekka has never been bred and she is 4 this month. If I don't breed her this heat she won't get bred ever.

pitgrrl
January 7th, 2009, 09:06 AM
.... I have yet to meet these so called "ethical breeders" ! :rolleyes:

I think the thing is, really ethical breeders are an extremely rare thing. If it were possible to get rid of everyone else who was breeding, there wouldn't be nearly the problem there is, and well/ethically bred lines would not be lost.

Like Hazel mentioned, I don't really but much faith in government being able to appropriately legislate breeding. If you make it extremely expensive, those making $$ will be able to continue, whereas those who are already loosing money and breed very rarely won't continue.

If we base it on registration with a kennel club, we run into the issue of working breeds which are not recognized, the internal politics of the KC, the inaccuracy of paperwork, etc. Again, this doesn't really deal with the issue.

As I think has been mentioned by a few people, it seems like the best approach is to try to shift people's thinking with regards to the disposable nature of animals, the mass availability of really great dogs (in some cases even if you want to work the dog in some capacity) in rescue, what an ethical breeder actually looks like......but that is such a huge, huge task that I can't even imagine how one goes about making a dent in it.

pitgrrl
January 7th, 2009, 09:11 AM
So the mutt in the shelter will die regardless (very sad but true) unless someone wants it.

Dekka, I think you've made some really good points, but do you not think the above privileges pure bred dogs and in some way perpetuates the idea that only less desirable "mutts" end up in the shelter/rescue system?

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you meant?

Love4himies
January 7th, 2009, 09:11 AM
Yes I have. But if people were educated there would be much less in the way of strays. As I said wouldn't the goal for the shelters to be nearly empty?



Umm well yes and no. As I have said before the people buying my dogs are not going to be going to a shelter or rescue to get one. So the mutt in the shelter will die regardless (very sad but true) unless someone wants it. Where is the person who brought the pup into the world? That to me is the far greater tragedy.

But if nobody was breeding for a couple of years, then they would have to go to the shelter if they wanted a dog. Remember some of those dogs in shelters are strays (how can you return a stray ???? and some come from abused homes).

For the people who produce dozens of pups a year hoping for that confomation prospect (or any other show dog) and pet out the rest to me are doing a disservice. Many (not all) of those puppy buyers would have been happy with a shelter dog.

I often don't breed for years at at time. My last litter was nearly 3 years ago. Dekka has never been bred and she is 4 this month. If I don't breed her this heat she won't get bred ever.

But the world wouldn't come to an end for your Dekka if she doesn't breed, it does for those dogs who don't have homes :sad:

I guess I don't see pets as "toys" to show off in agility contests or to take hunting, unless it is a companion, but see them as a member of the family to love and cherish. Not that I am saying agility competitions shouldn't exist, I think dogs love them and have a great time. Sooooo in saying that, a dog from a shelter is just as good as any high priced dog that a "reputable" breeder may produce.

BenMax
January 7th, 2009, 09:14 AM
[QUOTE=Dekka;726460]Realistically if all the people who care about dogs stop breeding do you think there will be any less dogs in shelters? Good breeders dogs don't end up in shelters sooo not I am pretty sure no.

QUOTE]

I am sorry Dekka - this is incorrect. They do come into rescue and shelters. I transported a Jack this weekend WITH all papers. 7 year old male.

Dekka
January 7th, 2009, 09:35 AM
Papers do not make a good breeder. Just about any puppy mill dog can come with papers. Most of the pets store pups I have seen come with papers. Are you saying the dogs in pet stores come from good breeders just cause they have papers?

AND I highly doubt the JRT came with JRT papers. JRT registry isn't like KC registries. You can't just breed two pure bred JRTs together and register the pups. You need health checks, vet documents and signed (by the vet) photos of the dog. Only breeding quality dogs are registered. You can't register a s/n dog.

So just cause a dog came with papers in no way says it is a good dog, that it is healthy, or even that it looks anything like what that breed should look like.

Edited to ask..was the breeder contacted? Did the breeder refuse the dog back?

BenMax
January 7th, 2009, 09:40 AM
Dekka - out of curiosity and you with the AKC or CKC?

If so - would you agree that the AKC and CKC are used as an umbrella for breeders? Would you agree that there are some (if not more than some) that are not responsible breeders however are endorsed by the AKC or CKC due to the lack of regulation.

There is a thread here on a young couple that bought a Basset from a breeder and were not given that 'support' in regards to an unhealthy puppy which died in the end. This breeder fell under that 'umbrella'.

I think that most of us here do not condemn all breeders but for those in rescue or Animal Control/shelters (such as ACO22) I guess we see it all and therefore it is difficult to defend breeders (ethical or not).

Dekka - I am telling you first hand and from experience (I swear to you) that we get registered purebreds. Initially we 'thought' that breeders take their dogs back but I have only come across 1 which stepped up to the plate. Rescues and shelters no longer extend themselves to request a breeder to assist because from experience they do not.

ACO22 - I hear you and I support your position. I have been there and I no longer wish to even go back into my memory bank to dredge up all the horrors. Sleepless nights and far too painful.

BenMax
January 7th, 2009, 09:41 AM
Papers do not make a good breeder. Just about any puppy mill dog can come with papers. Most of the pets store pups I have seen come with papers. Are you saying the dogs in pet stores come from good breeders just cause they have papers?

AND I highly doubt the JRT came with JRT papers. JRT registry isn't like KC registries. You can't just breed two pure bred JRTs together and register the pups. You need health checks, vet documents and signed (by the vet) photos of the dog. Only breeding quality dogs are registered. You can't register a s/n dog.

So just cause a dog came with papers in no way says it is a good dog, that it is healthy, or even that it looks anything like what that breed should look like.

The breeder was 'responsible' and that is all I am going to say about it. I hope you understand that I cannot devuldge information.:)

BenMax
January 7th, 2009, 09:49 AM
BTW Dekka - I am not against you. I find it refreshing that we can converse with you and I respect your position..I do. You also have come through time and time again for those that need your help so please do not feel that I am in anyway attacking your position.

Dekka
January 7th, 2009, 09:49 AM
The breeder was 'responsible' and that is all I am going to say about it. I hope you understand that I cannot devuldge information.:)

I don't want info or details as that is not pertinent to the discussion...

But if the breeder was responsible then they will be taking the dog back or paying the costs of fostering/boarding (if they honestly have no room at the moment) So then the dog is not filling up a shelter is it? So I don't see how that applies to this issue. If a dog with papers comes into a shelter and the breeder is contacted and is responsible.. then the dog isn't just there until the breeder either gets in a car or pays to have the dog shipped home.

I don't see how that equates to ethical breeders dogs sitting unwanted in shelters.

Dekka
January 7th, 2009, 09:51 AM
BTW Dekka - I am not against you. I find it refreshing that we can converse with you and I respect your position..I do. You also have come through time and time again for those that need your help so please do not feel that I am in anyway attacking your position.

No thats ok.

I think we are all on the same side essentially.. and that is the side of the dog (pet). I think we often just get in a 'rut' and need to think of ways to fix the problem instead of just cleaning up the mess left behind by stupid owners and horrid breeders.

Frenchy
January 7th, 2009, 09:53 AM
BTW Dekka - I am not against you. I find it refreshing that we can converse with you and I respect your position..I do. You also have come through time and time again for those that need your help so please do not feel that I am in anyway attacking your position.

Same here Dekka :)

mona_b
January 7th, 2009, 10:00 AM
BYB's and puppy mills ARE the problem.

Growing up with GSD's I knew I wanted to own my own...I went to shows and talked to breeders..It took me almost a year to choose the breeder..But I found her.She titled her dogs in Conformation and SchH. I was put on a neuter contract...I was to have him neutered at 6 months...If I didn't, I would have been taken to court and fined $5000..When my Cujo passed away at 13, time passed and I wanted another. I went back to her. I had gotten two pups(one was to be trained for the Canine Unit)..They were not sibblings. Ethical breeders do not sell 2 pups to one owner. I had a great breeder..She kept in contact with everyone..Her place was filled with pics we all sent her..And we had a reunioun every summer...She was great.

I did all testing at the proper times.This was cause I wanted to make sure everything was clear and no problems were showing up..Having them done at 6 months had absalutely no effect on their growth or bones...My current is 12, the only issue is the arthritis..And the breeder of the sires used is still doing strong..His SchH titled dogs are being sold to the Canine Units.

As for the Non-Breeding contract, only the breeder can lift this..That is ONLY once the dog has been titled and health/genetic tested..What breeders are doing now is, if the dog is bred while on this contract, a fine will be paid of $5000 to the owner and $2000 per pup..I think this is GREAT...My sisters Sibe was on this contract..Sydney wanted no part of the ring, so she was spayed.

I love my SPCA...ALL animals leave s/n...;)

A shelter dog is A LOT less likely to have any genetic issues. And will probably be 95% healthier throughout its life than a Pure-Bred Dog. You can remove all the dogs that have bad temprements, and some genetic issues from your breeding stock, and then end up with 2-3 dogs that are "perfect"... and probably so closely related that the puppies will have 7 legs

So not true..Mixes can have the same issues as purebreds.

BenMax
January 7th, 2009, 10:01 AM
I don't want info or details as that is not pertinent to the discussion...

But if the breeder was responsible then they will be taking the dog back or paying the costs of fostering/boarding (if they honestly have no room at the moment) So then the dog is not filling up a shelter is it? So I don't see how that applies to this issue. If a dog with papers comes into a shelter and the breeder is contacted and is responsible.. then the dog isn't just there until the breeder either gets in a car or pays to have the dog shipped home.

I don't see how that equates to ethical breeders dogs sitting unwanted in shelters.

You know Dekka - you are right. I did not contact the breeder. To be honest I didn't want to. I did not want to hear that they did not want the dog, or that it was ok that he is with us. It just frustrates me to be honest with you that I cannot rely on them. So it is my fault that this dog is in the 'system'. I guess I should have called? Don't know but you make a good point.

BenMax
January 7th, 2009, 10:03 AM
So Dekka my question is are you with the AKC or CKC?

Love4himies
January 7th, 2009, 10:04 AM
No thats ok.

I think we are all on the same side essentially.. and that is the side of the dog (pet). I think we often just get in a 'rut' and need to think of ways to fix the problem instead of just cleaning up the mess left behind by stupid owners and horrid breeders.

So right! I also am not condeming you personally. I think you are very responsible, but I still believe there is no way any good breeder can guarantee their pups will not end up in a shelter unless they follow the dog through out its life :shrug:.

So now the question becomes, how do you know, as a buyer who does not want to support byb and puppymills, if you do all your homework, the pet comes with a health guarantee (which is really just useless if the breeder doesn't comply as in little Horton), there is a requirement that the dog be returned to the breeder should it not be wanted any longer. The parents are registered, etc etc., that the breeder IS ETHICAL and will actually carry through with what is on the contract? That the breeder is not producing litter after litter? I am sure there are a lot of byb's who are putting up a face that they are "ethical" breeders.

Jim Hall
January 7th, 2009, 10:10 AM
peta is rightin one n one resapect, anytime animals are bred and sold for profit the animal sufferes. i dont care whether your breeding a lotor a little i dont care whetehr your bredding well and appropriatly or are a puppy mill. I do not care whether your breeding doggies or cattle .

as for shelters and pets ,and workers kers in them
I have seen too many wonderfull animals at shelters and on the streets die to ever even watch another dog show
animals have souls and should never ever be seen as an oblect to sell, ever. i take care of and seen too many srtay dogs and cats die

every one who breeds shouuld be taking all of thier profits and giving them to a non profit shelter and also placing shelter dogs

theres a thought breeders, you want to breed 4 dogs place four in shelters first .

clm
January 7th, 2009, 10:13 AM
When on the hunter for an ethical breeder, you can always get other breeders opinions of one that you're considering as well. Attend a few shows, not many byb's I dare say show their dogs.

Cindy

pitgrrl
January 7th, 2009, 10:13 AM
I am sure there are a lot of byb's who are putting up a face that they are "ethical" breeders.

I think that's where "networking", for lack of a better term, becomes really, really important. For example, if I was looking for a APBT, from either rescue or a breeder, I'd not only do my own research but talk to people in the breed, find out what their experiences with the particular breeder or rescue (because yes, there are some seriously dodgy rescues out there) were.

I can think of a few examples off the top of my head of breeders who appeared, on the surface, to be really good, ethical people. The real story, though, comes out eventually and can certainly be found with a bit of asking around.


The challenge, I think, is to get people to understand what they're looking for. I'm often surprised at what people seem to understand as a "good breeder".

BenMax
January 7th, 2009, 10:17 AM
I think that's where "networking", for lack of a better term, becomes really, really important. For example, if I was looking for a APBT, from either rescue or a breeder, I'd not only do my own research but talk to people in the breed, find out what their experiences with the particular breeder or rescue (because yes, there are some seriously dodgy rescues out there) were.

I can think of a few examples off the top of my head of breeders who appeared, on the surface, to be really good, ethical people. The real story, though, comes out eventually and can certainly be found with a bit of asking around.


The challenge, I think, is to get people to understand what they're looking for. I'm often surprised at what people seem to understand as a "good breeder".

I understand or would hope that a 'good breeder' is someone with the AKC or CKC. Now how ill informed am I? I think that is what the 'general' public thinks.

hazelrunpack
January 7th, 2009, 10:18 AM
every one who breeds shouuld be taking all of thier profits and giving them to a non profit shelter and also placing shelter dogs

theres a thought breeders, you want to breed 4 dogs place four in shelters first .

PETA wants to eliminate the practice of keeping pets, Jim. Do you agree with that?

Most ethical breeders are working day jobs to support their breeding business--it's an expensive process. They don't do it to get rich. Most of them can't even cover the vet bills with their 'profits'...hence the day job.

You could impose a legal moratorium on breeding till the shelters are 'cleaned up'. The ethical, responsible breeders would follow the law. The BYBs and the puppy millers would continue doing what they're doing. The shelters would still be full.

5 to 10 years down the line, when you finally decided that the moratorium was not going to 'clean up the shelters', there would be no registered breeds left, only carelessly bred dogs. :shrug:

No one would be happy, except maybe the puppy millers. :shrug:

Yes, some purebred dogs from good breeders end up in shelters. But it's the BYBs and the puppy mills that are the major problem. And how do you shut them down?

BenMax
January 7th, 2009, 10:20 AM
Yes, some purebred dogs from good breeders end up in shelters. But it's the BYBs and the puppy mills that are the major problem. And how do you shut them down?

Indeed you are correct Hazelrunpack.

hazelrunpack
January 7th, 2009, 10:21 AM
I understand or would hope that a 'good breeder' is someone with the AKC or CKC. Now how ill informed am I? I think that is what the 'general' public thinks.


There are other valid registries out there besides the show registries, BenMax. FDSB, for one. :shrug: I think that Dekka mentioned her breed's registry earlier in the thread.

mafiaprincess
January 7th, 2009, 10:23 AM
So Dekka my question is are you with the AKC or CKC?

Jack Russell's have tried very very hard to stay out of the CKC and AKC. The Canadian registry for JRTs is the JRTCC and the American one is the JRTCA.

BenMax
January 7th, 2009, 10:25 AM
Jack Russell's have tried very very hard to stay out of the CKC and AKC. The Canadian registry for JRTs is the JRTCC and the American one is the JRTCA.

See I learnt something new today. Thank you mafiaprincess.:)

Jim Hall
January 7th, 2009, 10:26 AM
I would have thought an "ethical breeder" would consider trasining and taking care of or socialising thier product would require more than part time labor

and ill tell you what lets call all breed dogs products . not pets

I dont agree with peta very nuch at all but i can see thier point

when i cant get a stray off the street without the expectation ot will be killed within 2 days i tend to think that there are maybe too many doggies and kitties?

BenMax
January 7th, 2009, 10:26 AM
There are other valid registries out there besides the show registries, BenMax. FDSB, for one. :shrug: I think that Dekka mentioned her breed's registry earlier in the thread.

Indeed she did and I understand now. Thank you for the clarification.

bendyfoot
January 7th, 2009, 10:31 AM
So now the question becomes, how do you know, as a buyer who does not want to support byb and puppymills, if you do all your homework, the pet comes with a health guarantee (which is really just useless if the breeder doesn't comply as in little Horton), there is a requirement that the dog be returned to the breeder should it not be wanted any longer. The parents are registered, etc etc., that the breeder IS ETHICAL and will actually carry through with what is on the contract? That the breeder is not producing litter after litter? I am sure there are a lot of byb's who are putting up a face that they are "ethical" breeders.

How? You do your research. And not a google search, like RESEARCH. You learn what exactly it is you want out of a purebred dogs, what your expectations are from a breeder, and then start to look and be UNWILLING to compromise on your needs/expectations. You go to dog shows. You call registries. You visit kennels. You talk to breeders. You talk to MORE breeders. You talk to people (lots) who have bought puppies from breeders. You talk to breed-specific rescues. Are you going to get a dog in a week? Nope. Is it a heck of a lot of information to slog through and get educated on? Yep.

But why on EARTH should we not be putting the burden of responsibility not only on breeders to be running a program responsibly, but also on OWNERS to know what they're getting into? If you're not willing to put a heck of a lot of time, effort, and some money into obtaining a purebred pup, then you don't want one badly enough IMO.

You know Dekka - you are right. I did not contact the breeder. To be honest I didn't want to. I did not want to hear that they did not want the dog, or that it was ok that he is with us. It just frustrates me to be honest with you that I cannot rely on them. So it is my fault that this dog is in the 'system'. I guess I should have called? Don't know but you make a good point.

I understand feeling burned, BM, and wanting to avoid getting burned again. But for all you know, that Jacks breeder would bend over backwards to do right by him and would be just as horrified by his current situation as you are. You may find an ally, rather than someone who doesn't care. But you won't know until you ask... it's not fair to paint all breeders with the same brush.

I understand or would hope that a 'good breeder' is someone with the AKC or CKC. Now how ill informed am I? I think that is what the 'general' public thinks.

As I said in an earlier post, "registered" does not equal "good breeder". "good breeders" are usually registered, however, but not necessarily with the AKC/CKC.

mafiaprincess
January 7th, 2009, 10:32 AM
every one who breeds shouuld be taking all of thier profits and giving them to a non profit shelter and also placing shelter dogs

What profits? After showing, performance titles, and health testing. I don't know anyone who makes a profit. At best they break even, and that doesn't happen much.

bendyfoot
January 7th, 2009, 10:35 AM
I would have thought an "ethical breeder" would consider trasining and taking care of or socialising thier product would require more than part time labor

well, um, yeah...it would. Raising a litter is pretty much a full-time committment. If it's not....then it's not an ethical breeder IMO.

and ill tell you what lets call all breed dogs products . not pets



Jim, now you're just being silly. Just because a breed is designed to have a specific body type and function and temperament, does not mean its a "product". It's just a breed.

pitgrrl
January 7th, 2009, 10:35 AM
I understand or would hope that a 'good breeder' is someone with the AKC or CKC. Now how ill informed am I? I think that is what the 'general' public thinks.

But see, I don't think that's true, which is unfortunate. I think you're right though, JQP does seem to put faith in the KCs overseeing breeding practices, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

BenMax
January 7th, 2009, 10:35 AM
How? You do your research. And not a google search, like RESEARCH. You learn what exactly it is you want out of a purebred dogs, what your expectations are from a breeder, and then start to look and be UNWILLING to compromise on your needs/expectations. You go to dog shows. You call registries. You visit kennels. You talk to breeders. You talk to MORE breeders. You talk to people (lots) who have bought puppies from breeders. You talk to breed-specific rescues. Are you going to get a dog in a week? Nope. Is it a heck of a lot of information to slog through and get educated on? Yep.

But why on EARTH should we not be putting the burden of responsibility not only on breeders to be running a program responsibly, but also on OWNERS to know what they're getting into? If you're not willing to put a heck of a lot of time, effort, and some money into obtaining a purebred pup, then you don't want one badly enough IMO.



I understand feeling burned, BM, and wanting to avoid getting burned again. But for all you know, that Jacks breeder would bend over backwards to do right by him and would be just as horrified by his current situation as you are. You may find an ally, rather than someone who doesn't care. But you won't know until you ask... it's not fair to paint all breeders with the same brush.



As I said in an earlier post, "registered" does not equal "good breeder". "good breeders" are usually registered, however, but not necessarily with the AKC/CKC.

I hear you Bendyfoot. I am being transparent as possible. I am certainly not painting all breeders with the same brush. Infact I have said over again that I am not against reputable breeders. I do not know where you understood that I am against them all.

I also understand perfectly about registered and good breeder. Once again also admitted that I have just been educated in this thread in above posts.

bendyfoot
January 7th, 2009, 10:36 AM
What profits? After showing, performance titles, and health testing. I don't know anyone who makes a profit. At best they break even, and that doesn't happen much.

Yeah that. Good breeders are NOT making money off their pups.

bendyfoot
January 7th, 2009, 10:40 AM
I hear you Bendyfoot. I am being transparent as possible. I am certainly not painting all breeders with the same brush. Infact I have said over again that I am not against reputable breeders. I do not know where you understood that I am against them all.

I also understand perfectly about registered and good breeder. Once again also admitted that I have just been educated in this thread in above posts.

Don't get upset, I wasn't saying it to be inflamatory, I was just interpreting what I thought you were saying. I was meant that there was a reason why you didn't contact the breeder, right? You probably have had more bad experiences with breeders than good, right? So it's totally understandable why you chose not to call. I'm just saying that there's a chance that you might have been pleasantly surprised. Again, though, I understand wanting to protect your feelings and the pup, it's easier said than done to look past what others have done sometimes. :grouphug:

Sorry about the second bit there, it was posted while I was typing, I didn't intend to harp on something that was already resolved. :D

BenMax
January 7th, 2009, 10:43 AM
Don't get upset, I wasn't saying it to be inflamatory, I was just interpreting what I thought you were saying. I was meant that there was a reason why you didn't contact the breeder, right? You probably have had more bad experiences with breeders than good, right? So it's totally understandable why you chose not to call. I'm just saying that there's a chance that you might have been pleasantly surprised. Again, though, I understand wanting to protect your feelings and the pup, it's easier said than done to look past what others have done sometimes. :grouphug:

Sorry about the second bit there, it was posted while I was typing, I didn't intend to harp on something that was already resolved. :D

Oh goodness Bendyfoot not upset at all. Just replying. This is an excellent topic and I am gathering very interesting information and perspectives. This is great for personal growth and knowledge.:)

Jim Hall
January 7th, 2009, 10:49 AM
yeah that. Good breeders are not making money off their pups.
oh come on so tkae all that damn time and enrgy and money and help all the animals that are out there waiting for a home

mafiaprincess
January 7th, 2009, 10:54 AM
oh come on so tkae all that damn time and enrgy and money and help all the animals that are out there waiting for a home

That is not everyone's focus in life. I trial my dogs in rally, agility, Smudge does conformation, and hopefully we will start obedience and earthdog this year. He may in future be bred, he may not. We'll see if his breeder and I feel he has enough to give back to the breed later in life, and how his health goes.

I have no desire to take my time energy and money and put it towards what you feel is the better goal. I guess I'm a purebred snob. I also have no desire to own a mutt. I like to know what it is I am getting. There is no cocker rescue here, or I might consider fostering. But no one should have to do what it is you think is the better goal. That is personal choice.

Your views and attitudes are very peta, but you seem to be missing some of their big philosophies.. like the fact they are against animal ownership and want us to set all the little animals free into the wilderness where they will eb apparently happier.

Rottielover
January 7th, 2009, 10:55 AM
I just want to say something, 4 1/2 years ago when I was wanting to adopt a rottweiler I was refused over and over again. Why no fenced in yard, and a young child. No one ever asked my dog expierence, or if I had another pet in the home. After months of being rejected I decided to go to a breeder.
I called the ckc, about this 1 breeder, and a club, they all said no past complaints, her dog was tested, and dad was tested in Gemany.
I went ahead for it. It made no difference. As soon as Harley started to get sick. The CKC is out for money just as the AKC is.
I learned the hard way, and the next dog I got was from a shelter.
Needless to say, she has cancer, so not all shelter dogs are healthier. Point proven.
Either way, the next dog I get will be from a rescue group I have been in contact with. They now know me, and what I will do for my dogs.
It is heart breaking to be refused so many times knowing you would make an awesome home.
That is also another reason people stray to pet shops and BYB, they will not be refused.

Love4himies
January 7th, 2009, 11:00 AM
I just want to say something, 4 1/2 years ago when I was wanting to adopt a rottweiler I was refused over and over again. Why no fenced in yard, and a young child. No one ever asked my dog expierence, or if I had another pet in the home. After months of being rejected I decided to go to a breeder.
I called the ckc, about this 1 breeder, and a club, they all said no past complaints, her dog was tested, and dad was tested in Gemany.
I went ahead for it. It made no difference. As soon as Harley started to get sick. The CKC is out for money just as the AKC is.
I learned the hard way, and the next dog I got was from a shelter.
Needless to say, she has cancer, so not all shelter dogs are healthier. Point proven.
Either way, the next dog I get will be from a rescue group I have been in contact with. They now know me, and what I will do for my dogs.
It is heart breaking to be refused so many times knowing you would make an awesome home.
That is also another reason people stray to pet shops and BYB, they will not be refused.

You are so right and I have heard that many, many times in different forums and that is the reason they go to pet stores and off the internet, no questions asked.

bendyfoot
January 7th, 2009, 11:00 AM
Oh goodness Bendyfoot not upset at all. Just replying. This is an excellent topic and I am gathering very interesting information and perspectives. This is great for personal growth and knowledge.:)

oh yay :D

oh come on so tkae all that damn time and enrgy and money and help all the animals that are out there waiting for a home


You know what, Jim? Good breeders also rescue. I know one person who breeds working siberian huskies who generally has no fewer than 2 dozen other dogs in rescue, who she also trains while she's fostering. I know another who breeds corgis who has adopted rescues as her own pets, not to mention the many she has pulled from shelters, healed, and fostered out.

GOOD BREEDERS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM.

mafiaprincess
January 7th, 2009, 11:06 AM
You are so right and I have heard that many, many times in different forums and that is the reason they go to pet stores and off the internet, no questions asked.

I tried to rescue a non cocker before getting Smudge. My fence wasn't high enough at 5 feet. I might go back to school at some point in life and that's a big no.. and some rescues wanted to force a girl on me, when I told them that likely would be a very bad match. I'm sure there are good ones, but I found it frustrating too.

mafiaprincess
January 7th, 2009, 11:08 AM
oh yay :D

You know what, Jim? Good breeders also rescue. I know one person who breeds working siberian huskies who generally has no fewer than 2 dozen other dogs in rescue, who she also trains while she's fostering. I know another who breeds corgis who has adopted rescues as her own pets, not to mention the many she has pulled from shelters, healed, and fostered out.

GOOD BREEDERS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM.

Smudge's breeder gets in a load of cockers in NC with no where to go. She is quite active in rescue. Ones that can't be rehabilitated get to live with her until they pass on unless there are bigger issues.

BenMax
January 7th, 2009, 11:09 AM
I just want to say something, 4 1/2 years ago when I was wanting to adopt a rottweiler I was refused over and over again. Why no fenced in yard, and a young child. No one ever asked my dog expierence, or if I had another pet in the home. After months of being rejected I decided to go to a breeder.
I called the ckc, about this 1 breeder, and a club, they all said no past complaints, her dog was tested, and dad was tested in Gemany.
I went ahead for it. It made no difference. As soon as Harley started to get sick. The CKC is out for money just as the AKC is.
I learned the hard way, and the next dog I got was from a shelter.
Needless to say, she has cancer, so not all shelter dogs are healthier. Point proven.
Either way, the next dog I get will be from a rescue group I have been in contact with. They now know me, and what I will do for my dogs.
It is heart breaking to be refused so many times knowing you would make an awesome home.
That is also another reason people stray to pet shops and BYB, they will not be refused.

You and I have discussed this before and had a good laugh. I like you was denied a Rott from the same group as I was denied a pittie for mentioning that I go to dogparks. But I did not take offense as every rescue has different criterias. I respect their position and would not dispute as I knew that I would 'qualify' with another group or would get one through our rescue. Indeed any dog (or cat) that lives with me will get the very best quality of life. I dearly love them as they are like my children.

By not getting one from these groups - I got something unexpected but welcomed. It will never deter me to check out a shelter or the rescue I am affiliated with and get what I want - but I would never ever go the internet route. That is me however and I think so because I know that all rescues are different but the average person does not know this.

Dekka
January 7th, 2009, 11:10 AM
LOL @ profits...

Ok lets see here... Lets pic Dekka
I plan on breeding her once.

CERF 50 (this is done more than once as eye issues can show up over time)
BAER 80
OFA 100
Knees 100

Then we have the costs of titling Dekka in obedience, agility, rally, dock dogs, and all the terrier trial costs. Now yes some of these things I would do anyway, but not all.

So lets say all that.. classes, driving, entries and such come to 8000, then lets say that only 20% of that was because I wanted to prove my dog. so that leaves us at 1600.

Hunting.. the collars alone were 600. But they are reusable, so lets say 60 (and not count the gas or taking the people teaching us out to lunch)

Membership fees for all those years when there are no pups as well as when there are.. 34 x 3 =102

Now we get into the actual costs of breeding...
Stud fee.. 500ish
Dekka's Vet check ups 200 ish
supplies and such 100
I remake a whelping box each time (just in case of germs etc) 200
Puppy check ups and micro chips lets say a litter of 4 =300

So if she has a healthy litter of pups it has cost me 3392 CN and this is taking the best case of all the costs and ignoring many..
If I sell each of those pups for 750 that nets me.. 3000

Already a loss. Now this does not take into account feeding the pups, or the mom. This also does not take into consideration if you get a singleton or small litter (4 is a good size) In Dekka's litter there was one pup who didn't make it ( :( ) I spent hundreds trying to save her.. and of course was left with no puppy to sell. This does not account for if something goes wrong and the mom needs a C section.

So even if everything goes PERFECTLY I make no profit. If things go wrong I loose even more. People who talk about profit and good breeders in the same breath don't know what they are talking about.





As to the JRT... As a breeder I would be heart broken if one of my dogs ended up needed rescue and no one called me. IMO that makes you guilty too. Why not give the dog back to the breeder? Then the foster home lined up for this guy could take another dog on death row? Then the adoptive family could save a life that has no safety net. That way more dogs are saved.

If the breeder is scum then report them to their breed club. Often people are unaware. You can't get mad at people for not doing things if they don't get complaints.

Jim Hall
January 7th, 2009, 11:11 AM
well i dont get it then im sorry is my last post here

i personally couldnt stand the thought of bringing more dogs into this area when the shelters are full

Dekka
January 7th, 2009, 11:13 AM
oh come on so tkae all that damn time and enrgy and money and help all the animals that are out there waiting for a home

Ok soo maybe you can answer my questions then?

What about all the good health tested lines out there? Let them all die off? Throw them away? Join PETA and let all breeding die off till no one has pets (if you take it to the extreme.. which is PETA's goal)

Why not do both if you are passionate for the breed (you can preserve a breed and rescue at the same time? I do.

Rottielover
January 7th, 2009, 11:14 AM
Benmax, Now that I know many different people from rescues, I am hoping that my home will be one day welcomed by another rescued rottweiler.
I have not had anything but love from my rescue girl, and I want to help, always have. It was not just that rescue I was denied, believe me there were more. LOL

BenMax
January 7th, 2009, 11:17 AM
As to the JRT... As a breeder I would be heart broken if one of my dogs ended up needed rescue and no one called me. IMO that makes you guilty too. Why not give the dog back to the breeder? Then the foster home lined up for this guy could take another dog on death row? Then the adoptive family could save a life that has no safety net. That way more dogs are saved.

If the breeder is scum then report them to their breed club. Often people are unaware. You can't get mad at people for not doing things if they don't get complaints.

No need to scold me Dekka - I already said this.:) Fortunately this dog is not in danger of being PTS as he is with a rescue group.

Love4himies
January 7th, 2009, 11:17 AM
How? You do your research. And not a google search, like RESEARCH. You learn what exactly it is you want out of a purebred dogs, what your expectations are from a breeder, and then start to look and be UNWILLING to compromise on your needs/expectations. You go to dog shows. You call registries. You visit kennels. You talk to breeders. You talk to MORE breeders. You talk to people (lots) who have bought puppies from breeders. You talk to breed-specific rescues. Are you going to get a dog in a week? Nope. Is it a heck of a lot of information to slog through and get educated on? Yep.

But why on EARTH should we not be putting the burden of responsibility not only on breeders to be running a program responsibly, but also on OWNERS to know what they're getting into? If you're not willing to put a heck of a lot of time, effort, and some money into obtaining a purebred pup, then you don't want one badly enough IMO.


Oh so true! But I don't think the average person would go through this to get a dog. I would if I was going to buy a purebred puppy or kitten (which I wouldn't because I am a shelter snob and will only adopt a pet from a rescue or shelter).

Dekka
January 7th, 2009, 11:21 AM
No need to scold me Dekka - I already said this.:) Fortunately this dog is not in danger of being PTS as he is with a rescue group.

I think you misunderstand.

If that dog already has someone who wants it (the breeder) that would then free up the rescue's time, place and funds to save a JRT who is on death row. I know the JRT rescue here is dying for foster homes!!! Every dog moved on to a good home is one foster home freed up, which is another dog saved.

Why use the rescue's money and resources for a dog who may have someone who is more than willing to take him?

And if the breeder is a douche.. then you have the opportunity to do something about it! Unless the breeder is in an old age home or something (which could happen) and they don't take him back then you can do something positive about the problem.

This is exactly what I mean by just cleaning up the mess. Saving that dog will help the dog.. but not help the problem. Why not do both?

BenMax
January 7th, 2009, 11:25 AM
I think you misunderstand.

If that dog already has someone who wants it (the breeder) that would then free up the rescue's time, place and funds to save a JRT who is on death row. I know the JRT rescue here is dying for foster homes!!! Every dog moved on to a good home is one foster home freed up, which is another dog saved.

Why use the rescue's money and resources for a dog who may have someone who is more than willing to take him?

Point very well taken Dekka. Thankfully I take in dogs on death row as well. Like I said, I did not have the energy nor the time to go back and forth to find out if the breeder would take his/her dog back after 7 years. Just did not have the luxury of time to network. You get the 'come get it now' and that is what I did. I don't apologize for that as this dog may have gone directly to a pound...then there would be no conversation about the dog I speak of. You should be happy Dekka that I took this boy.

Frenchy
January 7th, 2009, 11:25 AM
I like you was denied a Rott from the same group as I was denied a pittie for mentioning that I go to dogparks. But I did not take offense

Same here , I too was denied , again , a rott from a rescue , even if they knew I was fostering for another rescue. They had good points as to why I was denied , and I totally respected their decision.

It was not just that rescue I was denied, believe me there were more. LOL

But rottielover , can't you understand that rescues will not let people with babies to adopt most of their dogs , since we don't know their pasts , it's to protect the KIDS. And we are talking about a rott here , what if something would have happened to Kayla ? Rescues do not have the funds to go to court if they get sued. :shrug:

Dekka
January 7th, 2009, 11:27 AM
I am happy.. but what is to stop you from contacting the breeder now.. just a short email? (takes the same amount of time as it does to post here ;) )

I do know the JRTRO has had a breeders dog come in once or twice. They contact the breeder, take the dog, and then give it to the breeder. They don't keep it themselves to adopt out. They save their energies for dogs who dont' have anyone who needs them.

But the do take the dog 'now' if the dog is at risk of being dumped.

Frenchy
January 7th, 2009, 11:27 AM
Like I said, I did not have the energy nor the time to go back and forth to find out if the breeder would take his/her dog back after 7 years.

And why would we ? It's a freaking waste of time ! I only did it because it was the rescue's term , IMO , it's going beyond. If I place a dog outside of rescue , you can bet , screw the breeder !

Frenchy
January 7th, 2009, 11:29 AM
I am happy.. but what is to stop you from contacting the breeder now.. just a short email? (takes the same amount of time as it does to post here ;) )



We usually only get a phone number. Leave messages , they don't call back , takes them a few days , only to get this answer : no , I don't want the dog back.

Dekka
January 7th, 2009, 11:29 AM
And why would we ? It's a freaking waste of time ! I only did it because it was the rescue's term , IMO , it's going beyond. If I place a dog outside of rescue , you can bet , screw the breeder !

So because it might take 10 min of your time.. you aren't willing to help the dog, or expose a bad breeder?

WOW! how does that help fix the problem?

IMO more dogs should be saved.. dogs who NEED saving.

edited saw your post..

so then do you go to the breed club and report the breeder? Why not try to stem the flow of puppies. If they don't return you call.. they don't want the pup.. takes less than 10 min then.

BenMax
January 7th, 2009, 11:30 AM
But rottielover , can't you understand that rescues will not let people with babies to adopt most of their dogs , since we don't know their pasts , it's to protect the KIDS. And we are talking about a rott here , what if something would have happened to Kayla ? Rescues do not have the funds to go to court if they get sued. :shrug:

:offtopic:Frenchy Rotts have gotten a bumrap as other breeds which is simply not true. Based on a temperment evaluation there are many 'questionable' breeds that are very sound and can be absolutely put into a family situation with young children...my Ben was. The rescue equally evaluates the family so being denied a rottie or golden for that matter is not fair unless there are other red flags with the family.

Frenchy
January 7th, 2009, 11:33 AM
Well , I know many rescues that won't place dogs with kids under 8 years old and I totally agree with this. I'm not saying a rott will be more likely to bite , but if they do , it will make more damages than let's say , a smaller jaw ? :rolleyes:

BenMax
January 7th, 2009, 11:35 AM
So because it might take 10 min of your time.. you aren't willing to help the dog, or expose a bad breeder?

WOW! how does that help fix the problem?

IMO more dogs should be saved.. dogs who NEED saving.

edited saw your post..

so then do you go to the breed club and report the breeder? Why not try to stem the flow of puppies. If they don't return you call.. they don't want the pup.. takes less than 10 min then.

Dekka your point is very well taken. Please understand that rescues do not have the time to make this call. It is all run by volunteers. If I am contacted to remove a dog now, I will do it. If I have the time to network - I will do it. I have done it and most times it is futile. Could I now contact the breeder? No - too late - the dog is in the rescue system (not mine) and is being re-homed.

If I knew of people like you Dekka - I would certainly contact them. Infact I am keeping you in mind in the future.

BenMax
January 7th, 2009, 11:36 AM
Well , I know many rescues that won't place dogs with kids under 8 years old and I totally agree with this. I'm not saying a rott will be more likely to bite , but if they do , it will make more damages than let's say , a smaller jaw ? :rolleyes:

I am sorry to say Frenchy that I do not agree with this 8 year old rule. It should be done case by case. This may just explain why people get frustrated with rescues and shelters and go to the byb.

Dekka
January 7th, 2009, 11:39 AM
Ah I see.. Sorry I thought it was your rescue system....

I think breeders need to be held accountable for what they produce. If rescues (not you just in general) quietly and dedicatedly clean up the mess and never tell the breed clubs (or even the CKC)... they will be able to pretend there is no problem.

There could be a website somewhere.. where breeders who refuse to look after their animals (with out a good reason ... like being a paraplegic) can be ratted out.

I started this thread to formulate discussion (whoot it did that) and to try to see if there are any viable ideas or solutions to this problem.

bendyfoot
January 7th, 2009, 11:40 AM
Oh so true! But I don't think the average person would go through this to get a dog. I would if I was going to buy a purebred puppy or kitten (which I wouldn't because I am a shelter snob and will only adopt a pet from a rescue or shelter).

Ha! "Shelter snob", hee!:D (love it!)

Honestly, I think you've hit the nail on the head right there. The average person won't....the average person is the problem, whether they're doing it innocently and unknowingly or deliberately and selfishly, they're part of the problem. How do we correct this? Legislation and penalties for the douches, and education for the unaware. Who's to blame, who's responsible for fixing it? Heck, I dont' know. :laughing: But those of us who DO know better can do our part in the education, to the best of our abilities. That's probably a good start.


Well , I know many rescues that won't place dogs with kids under 8 years old and I totally agree with this. I'm not saying a rott will be more likely to bite , but if they do , it will make more damages than let's say , a smaller jaw ? :rolleyes:

Weird. We called some great dane rescues a few years ago and got turned down because of the fence issue. Meh. As for kids, what about if you have a small dog? Would you get turned down if you had a small dog that was at risk of being bit? Just curious...:confused:

bendyfoot
January 7th, 2009, 11:41 AM
Ah I see.. Sorry I thought it was your rescue system....

I think breeders need to be held accountable for what they produce. If rescues (not you just in general) quietly and dedicatedly clean up the mess and never tell the breed clubs (or even the CKC)... they will be able to pretend there is no problem.

There could be a website somewhere.. where breeders who refuse to look after their animals (with out a good reason ... like being a paraplegic) can be ratted out.
I started this thread to formulate discussion (whoot it did that) and to try to see if there are any viable ideas or solutions to this problem.

You know what.....THAT is a VERY good idea!!! There are already sites like ratemydoc.com for people to post their opinions and experiences with their medical doctors...why not a similar site for breeders? Not even a breed-specific one, but just based on the kennel name or breeder name...it could be a single source for information....:lightbulb: And not just for those who won't work with rescues, but for ANYTHING...refusing health guarantees, sending out sick puppies, bad living conditions, ANYTHING...including positive feedback, of course!

Frenchy
January 7th, 2009, 11:42 AM
Weird. We called some great dane rescues a few years ago and got turned down because of the fence issue. Meh. As for kids, what about if you have a small dog? Would you get turned down if you had a small dog that was at risk of being bit? Just curious...:confused:

I would do the same with small dogs , they can still bite :shrug:

bendyfoot
January 7th, 2009, 11:44 AM
I would do the same with small dogs , they can still bite :shrug:

no, you misunderstood, I mean would you refuse a home that already had a small dog living there, because there is a risk that the small dog could be bit by the new big dog? (I'm kind of equating a small, rambunctious dog with a child, I suppose)

Frenchy
January 7th, 2009, 11:50 AM
no, you misunderstood, I mean would you refuse a home that already had a small dog living there, because there is a risk that the small dog could be bit by the new big dog? (I'm kind of equating a small, rambunctious dog with a child, I suppose)

oh , well I always ask that everyone in the family (including dogs) come and meet the foster dog first if possible. Since I have dogs , I know if the foster is good with dogs or not. :shrug:

BenMax
January 7th, 2009, 11:52 AM
There could be a website somewhere.. where breeders who refuse to look after their animals (with out a good reason ... like being a paraplegic) can be ratted out.

I started this thread to formulate discussion (whoot it did that) and to try to see if there are any viable ideas or solutions to this problem.

Oh Dekka such a great idea! I like that.:thumbs up. I wonder if someone could be sued however for 'slander'??

This is an excellent thread Dekka. I really think that this is one of the best ones thus far. I think the discussion is getting us somewhere.

Dekka
January 7th, 2009, 11:54 AM
IME a good rescue will assess the family and the dog. Most rescues I know say on their website they dont' adopt to families with children. But they will if its a dog savvy home, or the rescue dog came from a family with children (and was fine)

Long story short.. before I realized that I could veto an adoption as the foster home a dog I was fostering went to an totally unsuitable family. On paper they sounded great.. heck on the phone they sounded great. In person they were sooo wrong for a JRT. Just cause they had a fenced yard and no young children did not make them good owners for this dog!

(he was returned to the rescue .. and to me .. 2 years later with a serious bite history. He wouldn't let people in the bedroom if he was on the bed, shredded the husband's hand... He was a normal sweet 7 month old JRT pup when he left)

bendyfoot
January 7th, 2009, 11:58 AM
Oh Dekka such a great idea! I like that.:thumbs up. I wonder if someone could be sued however for 'slander'??

This is an excellent thread Dekka. I really think that this is one of the best ones thus far. I think the discussion is getting us somewhere.


I would have to think if people can legally bash their doctors online, then the same would have to apply for breeders...

although, it just occured to me that it would have the potential to become another forum for breeder-vs-breeder bashing, which is soooooooo tiresome. That's the only downside I could see to such a site.

Frenchy
January 7th, 2009, 12:03 PM
I wonder if someone could be sued however for 'slander'??



Yes they can ! An ex member from here is being sued because of it. She posted about a BYB / puppy mill here.

BenMax
January 7th, 2009, 12:03 PM
IME a good rescue will assess the family and the dog. Most rescues I know say on their website they dont' adopt to families with children. But they will if its a dog savvy home, or the rescue dog came from a family with children (and was fine)

Long story short.. before I realized that I could veto an adoption as the foster home a dog I was fostering went to an totally unsuitable family. On paper they sounded great.. heck on the phone they sounded great. In person they were sooo wrong for a JRT. Just cause they had a fenced yard and no young children did not make them good owners for this dog!

(he was returned to the rescue .. and to me .. 2 years later with a serious bite history. He wouldn't let people in the bedroom if he was on the bed, shredded the husband's hand... He was a normal sweet 7 month old JRT pup when he left)

Infact Dekka there are rescues that make the call on individual basis. There are others that go 'by their book' and make no exceptions which is really too bad. One of the rescues turned me down for a rottie. Now that they know me in and I do work with them and support them - they would have made the exception. I understand and they did find that rottie I was interested in, an excellent home - so really there is no bad feelings on my part. I am ok with it.

And you are 100% correct. People may 'fit' into what a rescue is looking for but not necessarily be who they present. Mistakes are made as we are all human.

BenMax
January 7th, 2009, 12:04 PM
Yes they can ! An ex member from here is being sued because of it. She posted about a BYB / puppy mill here.

I heard about that. Case still pending I understand.

Frenchy
January 7th, 2009, 12:05 PM
I heard about that. Case still pending I understand.

Yes it is , and that has cost this lady a lot of $$$$$$$ :sad:

Dekka
January 7th, 2009, 12:09 PM
It depends on how you do it. If it heresay.. you can get into trouble. If you say you went to such and such a business and there were 3 dead dogs on the lawn.. thats not slander.

If you say that they are worthless humans scum of the earth ... then you may get into trouble.

The fact that the fugly blog does what it does and she gets threats but nothing happens leads me to believe there are ways.

clm
January 7th, 2009, 12:11 PM
I love that whole bad breeder list idea. My breeder right now has a 6 year old that was returned to her. She wouldn't dream of not taking him back. How I wish I had a bigger house.:sad:.

Convenience is key for most people today, in what they eat, where they shop, how they buy their pets. Sad but true. Doing all the research required into dog or cat ownership before hand, you gotta be kidding, let alone take the time to find a good breeder or shelter dog. Much easier to plunk down your cold hard cash to someone who's got an add in the paper, or who has puppies or kittens at the flea market or in a pet store. BYB's and puppymills wouldn't be in buisiness if people weren't so stupid and ignorant.
The CKC and the AKC and all other breed clubs need to be held accountable for the breeders and dogs they register, until there's legislation brought in to end byb's and mills, ie no dog shall have more than one litter every 2 years and not past the age of 5 years, nor breeder shall breed more than 2 different breed of dog or cat, all dogs or cats not owned by a licensed breeder or rescue that have a litter may not register that litter nor adopt out for a fee and will be subjected to a substantial fine. All registered breeders must be involved in rescue and actively show their dogs or cats. No pet store may breed, purchase or sell any dogs or cats....until some serious legislation happens, there will always be shelters full of dogs and cats. I can't see any changes happening in the near or late future for that matter. Sad but true.

Cindy

Love4himies
January 7th, 2009, 12:14 PM
I think breeders need to be held accountable for what they produce. If rescues (not you just in general) quietly and dedicatedly clean up the mess and never tell the breed clubs (or even the CKC)... they will be able to pretend there is no problem.

There could be a website somewhere.. where breeders who refuse to look after their animals (with out a good reason ... like being a paraplegic) can be ratted out.




Now that is a great idea, could include pet stores too! :thumbs up

TeriM
January 7th, 2009, 02:46 PM
Need to throw in my two cents here :D. Lucy is from a breeder and Riley is a result of a litter of labs from my aunt who after joining this board I would probably now call a back yard breeder. She has breed litters of labs for many years but only one per year and never more then three litters ever. I mistakenly thought that was a good thing :o. I was also attracted to the idea that I knew the puppies were well treated, socialized and exposed to lots of stuff. I know, still my bad :o. My next dog will likely be a rescue dog but I am not willing to entirely rule out a puppy but will be very careful to find a responsible breeder. Both my cats have been rescues.

IMO the best way to STOP the puppy mills and byb is to send Canada Revenue Agency or US tax dept after them!!!! You can bet that most of these places are not reporting their income and by getting the tax agencies to target these operations you make it much less attractive for them to do business. For all you out there who know of someone doing these type of business you should call the tax tips line and fink on them! Even if it doesn't stop them it makes their lives a bit more uncomfortable :D.

BenMax
January 7th, 2009, 02:48 PM
IMO the best way to STOP the puppy mills and byb is to send Canada Revenue Agency or US tax dept after them!!!! You can bet that most of these places are not reporting their income and by getting the tax agencies to target these operations you make it much less attractive for them to do business. For all you out there who know of someone doing these type of business you should call the tax tips line and fink on them! Even if it doesn't stop them it makes their lives a bit more uncomfortable :D.

That is a very good suggestion TeriM.

Frenchy
January 7th, 2009, 03:00 PM
[QUOTE=TeriM;727214]

IMO the best way to STOP the puppy mills and byb is to send Canada Revenue Agency or US tax dept after them!!!!

I did ask for this to be done to the puppy miller that had Nelly , never heard about if it was done. I doubt it. :frustrated:

Dekka
January 7th, 2009, 03:46 PM
Actually the large US puppymills are good about paying their taxs. Its one of the reasons they are not hit has hard as they should be.

t.pettet
January 7th, 2009, 06:57 PM
In some states in the US there is something called the 'lemon dog law' that entitles the purchaser full refund within a certain time frame if pup is unsound due to genetics or disease and from what I understand that pertains to all breeders, byb's and pet stores, in other words anyone selling a pup who was guaranteed healthy at time of sale. Canada needs such a law and I think everyone selling pups/kittens should have to apply for a license (an expensive one) or pay the courts for illegally profiting from selling animals.

Rottielover
January 7th, 2009, 07:03 PM
Canada has a law like that, it is called the same, the lemon law. I looked into it when Harley fell ill, but it was way past the 30 day time frame of purchasing him :(
That goes for cars and such too.

mona_b
January 8th, 2009, 09:02 AM
There could be a website somewhere.. where breeders who refuse to look after their animals (with out a good reason ... like being a paraplegic) can be ratted out.

Actually the AKC has a list of breeder suspentions. I haven't found one for the CKC.
http://www.barkbytes.com/suspend/suspindx.htm#a

Ethical breeders will take their dogs back.Even states that on their contrac.;)..BYB's don't..And ethical breeders keep in contact with the owners..It's not the breeders fault if the owner moves and decides not to contact the breeder. And as the breeders are involved in rescue, they sure as heck would want to get a call from a rescue if one of their dogs was in there...And 9 out of 10 times the dogs that are in rescue are from a BYB.

lUvMyLaB<3
January 8th, 2009, 01:33 PM
Having the real breeders quit breeding is not the answer.. we still need dogs in this world and it can't be left to BYBs, and puppymills. Those are the problems not the people that are not doing anythign wrong. They cannot be held responsible for the idiotic actios of others just because their interests relate...

GOOD breeders are not just producing puppies for the sake of producing puppies, not only for impoving and providing quality dogs.. They do it because they LOVE it. I have pretty limited show experience but from what I do have I know that the people are there because they love it, and that is why they take a money loss. It is their hobby and their lives. Something needs to be done about the dogs that should not be bred, we all agree on that, but absolutly no way should responsible breeders be told to stop producing dogs, it should be left to them and only them, we want the future of dogs in their hands. It is not fair to blame a good responsible breeder for the problems, or punish them for the situation we have..

BenMax
January 8th, 2009, 01:36 PM
[QUOTE=lUvMyLaB<3;727862 Something needs to be done about the dogs that should not be bred, we all agree on that, but absolutly no way should responsible breeders be told to stop producing dogs, it should be left to them and only them, we want the future of dogs in their hands. It is not fair to blame a good responsible breeder for the problems, or punish them for the situation we have..[/QUOTE]

Very well said. I don't think anyone would dispute.

kandy
January 9th, 2009, 05:13 PM
While I realize that there are plenty of "registry organizations" that will register a houseplant as a purebred dog as long as the money is paid, IMO the legitimate registry organizations such as the AKC and CKC need to do away with the aesthetic standards and concentrate more on creating healthy bloodlines for the animals. Current show standards are based soley on how the dog looks (aesthetics) but does not take into account that the beautiful <insert breed here> that just won best in show could have a genetic condition that would be passed onto any puppies. I recently read an article that the CKC (Canadian Kennel Club, not Continental) is already working on changing the standards to address the health issues that are becoming more commonplace with purebreds. I believe this deterioration is due to very fact that breeders are forced to strive towards dogs that meet this aesthetic standard which (depending on the breed) limits the available gene pool for that particular breed. If the AKC would institute rules that a puppy cannot be registered unless the parents health certifications and appropriate testing results are on file, then those breeders who are in it purely for the profit they can make (by not doing the proper testing, vet care, etc) would not be able to register their pups which would make them less marketable. I would agree with previous posters that to JQP, registered = healthy. Well, registered doesn't mean squat - it simply means that the parents were both of the same breed, and even that is questionable depending on the registry the papers come from.

That being said, I have no problems with people who want a purebred dog vs a mixed breed. Right now I have one purebred, and one mutt. The purebred came from a breeder, the mutt from my local Humane Society shelter. My son has two purebred dogs, one bought, one rescued. While I researched my chosen breed, I know now that I did not research my choice of breeder carefully enough. I have no doubt that the woman truly loves newfs but because 3 out of the 3 dogs I've gotten from her have health problems, I did detailed research into their bloodlines and found that she is line-breeding and in-breeding to excess, which I believe is causing the health of those lines to deteriorate. During that research, I found that she is not a member of the NCA. This should have been something that I found during my original research, and should have been a red flag for me.

There are some posts suggesting that a breeder should be certified if they sell more than "X" number of animals per year. That certification requirement is already in place, at least for "wholesale" breeders in the US. Every person that engages in the commercial sale of animals, whether they be a breeder or a broker, must be certified by the USDA. This does not apply to pet stores or any breeder that sells the animal directly to the public (retail vs commercial). When a new pet supply store opened here, and I saw that they had pups for sale - I immediately cornered the owner to voice my disgust at his support of puppy mills. His first defense was that the breeder is "government certified". Pffffffttttt. Again - the certification doesn't mean squat other than they paid the fee for it. It does not mean that the licensed person gives their breeding stock even the minimal amount of care required for their survival. There are "rules" attached to the certification dealing with minimum care, etc. It also gives the USDA the right to inspect their operations at any time, but there is not enough personnel to conduct these inspections or make sure that they are following the 'rules' so it's a moot point and IMO not worth the paper it's written on. Here is a link to the 'requirements' for this certification: http://www.aphis.usda.gov/publications/animal_welfare/content/printable_version/faq_animal_dealers.pdf

Of course it says that applicants will be inspected, and that license holders are inspected regularly - but if that were really the case then puppy mills wouldn't still be operating in the US, now would they? But again, to JQP - the words "government certified" gives the impression that the pups are healthy and were bred in the best of circumstances.

I don't believe that banning breeding of all kinds would solve any problems - the ones that dismiss the needs of their animals would just as likely dismiss any laws telling them what they can or can not do with their animals. And as is painfully obvious, animal cruelty or neglect laws are mostly laughable and in some cases non-existant. I do believe that education is the key, and I believe that mankind is slowly moving towards a more humane view of animals as a whole - whether that be a pet or a farm animal. I think that it will take time for the laws to change - but I believe they will continue to change, just as they have changed in the last few decades. I wish they'd change faster, and I do bug my elected representatives to urge them to vote for animal issues, but its a slow process. As far as the puppymills already in operation, I believe that enforcement of already existing laws (and education of the public) would take care of them. The trick is getting people to realize that the cute pup they see in the pet store window DID come from that horrible place that they saw on the news and to make people realize that 'licensed' or 'registered' do not always equate to an ethical breeder who produces healthy animals. The public needs to remember that the saying 'buyer beware' applies to animals too.

Ok - that's my :2cents: although it looks more like $20 worth. :rolleyes:

BPISS
January 12th, 2009, 09:19 AM
I don't believe that banning breeding of all kinds would solve any problems - the ones that dismiss the needs of their animals would just as likely dismiss any laws telling them what they can or can not do with their animals. And as is painfully obvious, animal cruelty or neglect laws are mostly laughable and in some cases non-existant. I do believe that education is the key, and I believe that mankind is slowly moving towards a more humane view of animals as a whole - whether that be a pet or a farm animal. I think that it will take time for the laws to change - but I believe they will continue to change, just as they have changed in the last few decades. I wish they'd change faster, and I do bug my elected representatives to urge them to vote for animal issues, but its a slow process. As far as the puppymills already in operation, I believe that enforcement of already existing laws (and education of the public) would take care of them. The trick is getting people to realize that the cute pup they see in the pet store window DID come from that horrible place that they saw on the news and to make people realize that 'licensed' or 'registered' do not always equate to an ethical breeder who produces healthy animals. The public needs to remember that the saying 'buyer beware' applies to animals too.

That pretty much sums up my feelings as well. I have two Purebred Dogs right now from an excellent reputable Breeder, and I know if anything should happen whereby I could no longer care for them she would take them back.
That being said, I have also done my share of rescue(3), even driving to CT. to pick up an older Cancer ridden Bitch that did not deserve to spend her last days in a Shelter, and I believe that is why she was there in the first place.
I also started with an unethical Breeder, and ended up with a very problem plagued Dog, that I spent an awful lot of money on. So going to a reputable Breeder to get Healthy Dogs, and one who would stand behind their Dog should it fall ill, or not pass basic Health Clearances was a better choice for me. Most Joe Public people fail to understand or grasp the "DUE DILLEGENCE" required when considering a Dog, and what Breed would be a good fit for them and their Families. I have seen it over and over again, and sadlt believe people will never change, and don't want to be educated. They want what they want, and want it now, so in the end the Dog will pay for their selfishness.