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Cat's teeth removed - won't eat

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meow
January 3rd, 2009, 12:21 PM
My cat is 13 y.o. Her whole life she ate dry cat food (royal canin). She unexpectedly had to have all her top teeth removed due to some kitty tooth disease and was in the hospital for 2 weeks. Her vet is a dental surgeon expert.:thumbs up He said her mouth is healing nicely and sent her home. Each day she has been home she is eating less and less. Vet thinks she is "playing for sympathy from me" hoping she will get her dry cat food -- which she can never have again.

She liked human baby food - chicken. So I took her dry food, soaked it in water so it would turn soft, put the baby chicken food in it and warmed it. she ate it yeserday and won't eat today. she won't eat anything else either.

Vet told me to get a dog crate that looks like a jail, put her in it with litter box and food and a bed and keep her in there with no contact from me for 8 hours. Then check if she ate anything and call him. He is convinced she is being a brat and just hoping i will give in and give her dry food (which i won't/can't).

HELP!:yell:

sugarcatmom
January 3rd, 2009, 12:32 PM
He is convinced she is being a brat and just hoping i will give in and give her dry food (which i won't/can't).


Uh-oh. I'm not liking this vet's mentality about this. Cats have to eat, they aren't like dogs that can down-regulate their metabolism, and they also don't just stop eating because they're "being a brat". I also don't like his suggestion to lock her in a cage for 8 hours without contact. This is only going to increase her stress and make it even less likely that she eats, not more.

Couple questions: is your cat on antibiotics? What about pain-killers?

meow
January 3rd, 2009, 02:52 PM
Uh-oh. I'm not liking this vet's mentality about this. Cats have to eat, they aren't like dogs that can down-regulate their metabolism, and they also don't just stop eating because they're "being a brat". I also don't like his suggestion to lock her in a cage for 8 hours without contact. This is only going to increase her stress and make it even less likely that she eats, not more.

Couple questions: is your cat on antibiotics? What about pain-killers? she was on anitbiotics but not now. vet thinks she was tasting it in her food and it made her stop eating.she was on pain killers. not now.

chico2
January 3rd, 2009, 04:33 PM
OMG,that vet has to learn a few things about cat-behavior,not only is her mouth probably sore,but ignoring her in a cage for 8 hours is outrageous.
I would get her some Wellness canned food,if she likes Chicken baby-food,maybe she'll eat the Wellness chicken.
I would also get her some more pain-killers..

clm
January 3rd, 2009, 05:05 PM
Her mouth may be healing nicely, but still gotta be sore IMO. Contrary to popular belief, cats with no teeth can still eat dry food, after they're gums have hardened, although it's a good opportunity for you to get her onto wet food which is better for her anyway. I would keep doing what you're doing, everything you can to get her to eat and would look into another vet looking at her to see if she needs more antibiotics and painkillers.

Cindy

Love4himies
January 3rd, 2009, 05:29 PM
I would get a second opinion with a vet.

A cat should never go more than 24 hours without food as their livers do not metabolize fat energy well. I am shocked that a vet would not consider this :confused:.

Also antibiotics are notorious for causing tummy upset in cats (and humans) so that could be another reason your kitty is not eating.

Just imagine if you just got your teeth out? Would your dentist prescribe hard, crunchy food or soft food for a few weeks until you can bear to chew again? I highly recommend a quality canned food such as Wellness, grain free, Natures Variety, Instinct, and Organics by Nature.

I don't think a cat has the mental capability to play on your sympathies. I think your kitty has an upset tummy from the antibiotics or has/has had pain from eating kibble.

Tundra_Queen
January 3rd, 2009, 06:27 PM
Oh geezee...I'm not liking your vet much either! Cats don't stop eating cause they want attention and to keep kitty locked in a cage for 8 hrs without you looking in on him? Sorry but to me that is just cruel! I'd get another vet as this guy sounds like he doesn't like cats! JMHO

Debbie

growler~GateKeeper
January 3rd, 2009, 06:38 PM
My cat is 13 y.o. Her whole life she ate dry cat food (royal canin). She unexpectedly had to have all her top teeth removed due to some kitty tooth disease and was in the hospital for 2 weeks. Her vet is a dental surgeon expert.:thumbs up He said her mouth is healing nicely and sent her home.

Why was she in the hospital for 2 weeks? :confused: Did they remove part of her jaw bone?

Were the gums sutured closed after the teeth were removed?

My 17yr old cat had 2 large (1 from the top jaw & 1 from the bottom) & 4 tiny front teeth removed & was sent home the same day.

meow
January 3rd, 2009, 07:03 PM
I am on coumadin. The vet doesn't want to be sued if I get scratched giving her meds. I agree about the crate. I am NOT putting her in it again. she is sick. my friend went to a pet psychic who said my cat has a scratch in her throat...which is why she is not eating. I took her meds and diluted it in water and put it in a eye dropper and got it in her mouth. I started giving her antibiotics and pain meds starting tonight. The infection in her mouth went into the bone in her mouth so she has to be on anitbiotics for 6 months. I have to get them in her! she was in the hospital for 2 weeks b/c she would not eat. she was on an IV. then she got better and was going to come home and got a sinus infection so she had to stay longer.

sugarcatmom
January 3rd, 2009, 07:05 PM
she was on anitbiotics but not now. vet thinks she was tasting it in her food and it made her stop eating.she was on pain killers. not now.

Antibiotics can definitely interfere with appetite. What food did the vet send home with her? It's possible she's developed a taste aversion to it, so I highly recommend trying other canned foods. Get several flavours of Fancy Feast from the grocery store and see if she's tempted by any of them.

Something else would be to pulverize her old dry food and sprinkle it on top of the canned. Or offer her some low-sodium canned salmon or sardines. Pouring tuna juice on her dry or canned is another trick. You can also get bonito flakes (aka Kitty Kaviar) and crumble it over her food.

She must eat, you can't just starve a cat into eating what you want them to. The vet is terribly mistaken in this regard. If she goes without food for more than 48 hrs, it might be time to use an appetite stimulant.

sugarcatmom
January 3rd, 2009, 07:14 PM
I started giving her antibiotics and pain meds starting tonight. The infection in her mouth went into the bone in her mouth so she has to be on anitbiotics for 6 months. I have to get them in her!

If she still needs pain medication at this point, a much better option would be a Fentanyl pain patch. Lasts for 5 days and you don't have to mess with getting anything down her throat. As for the antibiotics, there is a long-lasting shot called Covenia that might be an easier option.

Love4himies
January 3rd, 2009, 07:22 PM
Antibiotics for 6 months :eek:. I would definitely be getting a second opinion. Antibiotics can kill off the good bacteria in the gut causing chronic diarrhea. Perhaps supplementing your kitty daily with some plain yogurt to help replenish the bacteria.

meow
January 3rd, 2009, 07:24 PM
she is eating gerber baby food-chicken flavor.

meow
January 3rd, 2009, 07:25 PM
yes when she is on antibiotcs for 6 months i have to give her acidopholis. this infection could have killed her. it was very severe. it wasn't just normal teeth extractions.
she was extremely difficult with the vet. satan kitty. she is not like that with me. she is like that with all vets. it wasn't just him. she is a 1 person indoor cat. the vet owns 2 cats. i think he likes cats. i think he is judging by her "satan" behavior at the hospital and he is thinking she acts like that all the times when approached with meds, etc.

growler~GateKeeper
January 3rd, 2009, 07:27 PM
Mixing in a couple of teaspoons of warm water to the canned food may also tempt her to eat. You can also try a tiny bit of melted butter on top, or sprinkle a little bit of catnip on the canned.

meow
January 3rd, 2009, 07:32 PM
Antibiotics can definitely interfere with appetite. What food did the vet send home with her? It's possible she's developed a taste aversion to it, so I highly recommend trying other canned foods. Get several flavours of Fancy Feast from the grocery store and see if she's tempted by any of them.

Something else would be to pulverize her old dry food and sprinkle it on top of the canned. Or offer her some low-sodium canned salmon or sardines. Pouring tuna juice on her dry or canned is another trick. You can also get bonito flakes (aka Kitty Kaviar) and crumble it over her food.

She must eat, you can't just starve a cat into eating what you want them to. The vet is terribly mistaken in this regard. If she goes without food for more than 48 hrs, it might be time to use an appetite stimulant.she ate fancy feast extravagant medleys at the vet and meow mix. won't eat it for me. i took her dry food, soaked it in water then mixed the baby food in. she ate that 2x. now she will only eat the baby food, which has no fiber in it so i have to mix fiber in. i tried grinding up her dry food and sprinkling on top wet food. she is too smart and scrapped all the dry off and didn't eat the wet. she won't eat ground up chicken or ground up tuna. i tried. she never liked people food - ever. i put the crate in the basement just now. won't do that again. i don't think the vet thinks it is good to starve her into eating. i think he was trying to get her into a confined area with the food hoping she would eat.

meow
January 3rd, 2009, 07:34 PM
tried the butter and cat nip, etc thank you for the ideas. they didn't work.

sugarcatmom
January 3rd, 2009, 07:40 PM
now she will only eat the baby food, which has no fiber in it so i have to mix fiber in.

Why does she need the fiber? That's great that she's at least eating baby food. And if she'll eat her dry food on it's own, then let her have that too. Like clm mentioned, cats can often still eat dry even without teeth.

chico2
January 4th, 2009, 08:00 AM
That kitty has certainly been through a lot,as have you..
I would say,most cats hate taking meds,your kitty is not"Satan",she's been in pain,spent 2 weeks in a hospital and is on meds,enough to get a cat totally stressed out,I know anyone of my cats would be:cat:

As for suing the vet,no owner can sue a vet because their cat scratches them while getting medicated,so I don't think the vet worries about that.
You obviously care a lot about your kitty though and I :fingerscrhoping for the best for both of you:fingerscr

meow
January 4th, 2009, 08:06 AM
The vet seems to be worried about me and getting scratched. I know she is in pain and has been thru alot. I called her "satan" so you could get an idea of her behavior at the vets. I LOVE my kitty. she needs fiber to poop. she didn't poop for a week. she just pooped and there was one hard piece and the rest was diarreah. now she is barely eating the baby food.

believe it or not this vet is the go-to guy for cat's teeth. other vets send their clients to him! my only other option is the 24 hour animal hospital since it is sunday.

i just got out of the hospital myself. this is very stressful for kitty and me. i am worried sick.

meow
January 4th, 2009, 08:07 AM
Why does she need the fiber? That's great that she's at least eating baby food. And if she'll eat her dry food on it's own, then let her have that too. Like clm mentioned, cats can often still eat dry even without teeth.
she can't have dry food yet. her surgery was 2 weeks ago. top teeth out, roots came out too. i gave her her dry food soaked in a little water. she won't eat it.

sugarcatmom
January 4th, 2009, 12:26 PM
she needs fiber to poop. she didn't poop for a week. she just pooped and there was one hard piece and the rest was diarreah. now she is barely eating the baby food.

A contributing factor to not pooping was likely that she wasn't eating. Nothing in, nothing out. What is the fiber that you're adding? Will she eat the baby food without it? Can you try other flavours of baby food, like beef or lamb?

she can't have dry food yet. her surgery was 2 weeks ago. top teeth out, roots came out too.

Cats heal extremely quickly, and I'm going to say that at this point, needing to eat trumps everything else. If she'll eat her dry food without it being soaked in water, give it to her. If you have to pulverize it into a powder for her to lick up, do that. Whatever it takes to keep her eating.

This vet may indeed be the go-to guy for teeth, but I'm questioning how much he actually understands cats as a whole. If your cat doesn't eat anything - not her old food, not the baby food - then I reiterate that she needs an appetite stimulant. There is one called mirtazapine which only needs to be given every 3 days. It's very effective.

Love4himies
January 4th, 2009, 03:05 PM
I have to agree with sugarcatmom, you need to get this cat to eat even if it means an appetite stimulant. I question the advice you have gotten from this vet and was wondering what makes him the "go to guy" for teeth extraction.

14+kitties
January 4th, 2009, 06:19 PM
Get that kitty some good quality canned food. L4H mentioned some of the very best. Mush it up. Add some warm water to it to make it soupier so kitty can eat it. She NEEDS to eat! If you want to add fiber to her diet then give her a tsp of pure pumpkin, not the pie filling, in her food. That will give her the fiber. Will also help with the diarrhea she is suffering. Probably from all the meds in her system and the baby food. Leave her food out. She may not eat right away but she will eat.

You have had the very best food guru we have here give you fantastic advice. She knows tons more about food nutrition than most vets. Royal Canin is not a great food for kitty to be on at the best of times but if she will eat it then give it to her. The important thing is that she eat!

I would seriously be looking for a vet who understands cats!

Love4himies
January 4th, 2009, 06:26 PM
Well said 14+. Even if it is the grain free Fancy Feast flavours, which is also known as kitty crack (salmon or Tuna, whitefish).

If the antibiotics are making your kitty sick, she can't go 6 months without eating so you may have to forego the meds until she eats again. If you are worried about doing so, contact another vet.

Longblades
January 4th, 2009, 06:33 PM
Everybody has had really good ideas and having gone through some of the same things myself I think the most important part for me to reiterate is that your cat MUST eat. When I have had sick cats I only offer them tiny, wee, little bits of food at a time. Wee, little as in maybe less than an eighth of a teaspoon and offered on the end of my finger. Don't offer a regular sized serving. Think of how the sight of food makes you feel sick yourself when you have the flu. Only tiny bits. Ludicrously, unbelievably tiny bits. Many times of course.

faranya
January 4th, 2009, 08:12 PM
When my cat Gollum refused to eat, owing to major kidney and liver issues, I ended up pureeing cat food and even raw liver in my blender until it was like thick soup, then using a plastic mouth syringe (barrel of a hypo with no needle works fine too) and making him eat it. He disliked the procedure but it got food into him. The more he ate, the stronger he got and then the more he wanted to eat.

I came on this forum for help and did I ever get it! These folks know what they're talking about and they definitely helped me drag Gollum back from the dead.

Best of luck with your poor kitty. You're both going through such a rough time.

badger
January 4th, 2009, 11:30 PM
The more he ate, the stronger he got and then the more he wanted to eat.

This has been my experience too. Force-feeding is a drag but at a certain point you just have to do it, as quickly and as skilfully as possible. I never forced Mousse to eat more than a certain amount each time, usually about 2 tablespoons. I used a small 3 ml syringe so the mixture has to be really soupy, no lumps. I would get some canned recovery food from the vet or one of the other brands that have been suggested; baby food doesn't have the nutrition she needs.
I used to wrap Mousse in a towel and got each session down to about two minutes.
Then comes the clean-up lol. Then a little later you have another go.
You could leave some of the same food down as well, just in case. Don't worry about it spoiling. If the fiber thing is more pearls of wisdom from your vet - who appears to be a bit wanting in the cat psychology department - ignore it.
I would think about putting her back on pain meds until you have the eating issue solved. A pain patch is a good idea. Pain in animals is under-treated, imo.
The crating suggestion is just weird. How is this supposed to help? Your vet is a numbskull.

meow
January 7th, 2009, 08:12 AM
Update 1/7/09: I took my cat to the ICU critical care 24 hour hospital. They put a feeding tube in her. they gave me ID cat food and i have to blenderize it, mix it with anitiobtics and pain meds and acidopholius. they showed me how to feed her thru the tube. she has had 5 feedings so far. yesterday i think i almost lost her. i am having anxiety attacks (literally) and feel like i am going to throw up. i started taking valium. i will NEVER go back to the surgeon who operated on her. an internist at the icu told me she would see my kitty through this and once the tube comes out and she is eating i need to find a new vet. i have a friend who has lived here longer than me, helping me with that.

my kitty will eat baby food with her mouth but no cat food. they don't want me giving her too much baby food b/c it gave her diarreah. i feel like i am in catch 22. i have to encourage her to eat with her mouth. if she doesn't then i tube feed her.

i feel SICK. i wish i never had her operated on. I am crying. at the time i thought it was life or death and i had to but i feel she has been traumatized. oh and i folded up that crate and i am NOT putting her in it. she has a cone on her head so she doesn't rip out the feeding tube. that should be good enough. she is lethargic. i opened all the windows and am playing uplifting gospel music for her. lucily today was a snow day here i can stay home with her all day.

I LOVE my cat sooooooo much. I feel sick what has happened. i am afraid she will give up her will to live b/c she has been thru so much. she must be in pain but cats often don't show how much. all i can do now is feed her thru the tube so she gets stronger and take her saturday to the icu internist. i am really scared!!!!:needhug: i LOVE my girl!

I forgot to mention the icu hospital did alot of tests and found nothing else wrong with her beside malnutrition, trauma from surgery.

meow
January 7th, 2009, 08:15 AM
Get that kitty some good quality canned food. L4H mentioned some of the very best. Mush it up. Add some warm water to it to make it soupier so kitty can eat it. She NEEDS to eat! If you want to add fiber to her diet then give her a tsp of pure pumpkin, not the pie filling, in her food. That will give her the fiber. Will also help with the diarrhea she is suffering. Probably from all the meds in her system and the baby food. Leave her food out. She may not eat right away but she will eat.

You have had the very best food guru we have here give you fantastic advice. She knows tons more about food nutrition than most vets. Royal Canin is not a great food for kitty to be on at the best of times but if she will eat it then give it to her. The important thing is that she eat!

I would seriously be looking for a vet who understands cats!
where do i get pure pumpkin? i got the pie filling in the can and she hates it.

meow
January 7th, 2009, 08:16 AM
I have to agree with sugarcatmom, you need to get this cat to eat even if it means an appetite stimulant. I question the advice you have gotten from this vet and was wondering what makes him the "go to guy" for teeth extraction.he is the only oral surgeon in my state but i am not going back to him

meow
January 7th, 2009, 08:21 AM
where do i get pure pumpkin? i got the pie filling in the can and she hates it.
for now i will give the food the icu internist tells me to give her but what is a good quality food? i always thought royal canin was excellent but i am reading here it is not. can you give me some ideas. i will run them by the icu internist on saturday.

Love4himies
January 7th, 2009, 08:34 AM
for now i will give the food the icu internist tells me to give her but what is a good quality food? i always thought royal canin was excellent but i am reading here it is not. can you give me some ideas. i will run them by the icu internist on saturday.

RC is not good food at all :yuck:

Check the ingredients on the can. Human grade quality of meat should be used and remember cats are carnivores, so the majority of the ingredients should be meat.

Royal Canin, check and compare the ingredients to the better foods below:

http://www.royalcanin.ca/products/feline_en.php

http://www.catinfo.org/

My favourite foods are: They all use human grade meat/ingredients, NO byproducts.

Nature's Variety Instinct:

http://www.naturesvariety.com/instinct_cat_can

Wellness, grain free and Core varieties:

http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/cat_wellness_can_beef_chicken.html

Organics, By Nature:

http://www.bynaturepetfoods.com/productpages/organiccannedcat.php#ttl

chico2
January 7th, 2009, 10:31 AM
meow,I am really,really sorry for you and your kitty,it's obvious you love her very much.:sad:
Don't feel bad about letting her go through the surgery,you are not to blame,if it was needed that's what you had to do.
It is very traumatic for a cat,especially combined with what she had to go through after,with lots of love and care and no more hospital-stays,hopefully she'll forget about it.

Now,you have to use all your energy to get her well,try not to be too anxious around her,cats tend to feel that and get more stressed,I know,it's easy to say,but..
I am glad you have found someone who will really help getting your kitty get healthy again,hopefully her mouth will heal quickly with no more pain:pray:

sugarcatmom
January 7th, 2009, 11:23 AM
If I could give you the biggest hug right now, I would. It’s tough, but hang in there, your baby is in good hands now. A feeding tube is the best thing for her at this point, and will help speed her recovery. I’ve had to resort to a feeding tube on 3 separate occasions for my kitties, so if you have any questions, let me know. Is it an E-tube (in through the side of the neck), or a PEG tube (goes directly into the stomach)?

Here’s more info on feeding tubes: http://www.catinfo.org/feedingtubes.htm

Jim Hall
January 7th, 2009, 12:17 PM
pure pumpkin is usually carried in a good supermarket sometimes in the baking section

sounds like the icu was pretty good to ya
not to slam vet secialists but they usually dont relly know care other then then basic post op stuff

i know the feeling my Kit Du was terrifeid of the vet and got called a monster when alll she was was scared .

Love4himies
January 7th, 2009, 12:27 PM
I missed your updated post about your kitty being in icu. :grouphug:

You have done the best for her, she is now getting nutrition and should be on the mend. Don't feel guilty about having the surgery done, you have done nothing wrong. It is natural for us to put our trust in those who have been educated and license to provide a service to know what is best. :grouphug:

14+kitties
January 7th, 2009, 12:47 PM
So sorry your kitty is going through so much! But everyone is right. Please don't blame yourself.
Pure pumpkin should be on the same shelf as the pie filling. I see you are in CT. Don't know if your stores carry E.D.Smith or not but if so they have pure pumpkin. They should be almost side by side. And you are right, kitty may not like it. You can mix it in with her food though and she won't know it's there.
L4H gave you a list of quality foods you can feed her. Sugarcatmom gave you some wonderful sites to check out. :thumbs up That should give you tons of reading to do for the next little while. On top of that you will be shocked by the info given. Very interesting.
Sending lots of :pray::fingerscr:goodvibes: for kitty.

meow
January 8th, 2009, 04:57 PM
If I could give you the biggest hug right now, I would. It’s tough, but hang in there, your baby is in good hands now. A feeding tube is the best thing for her at this point, and will help speed her recovery. I’ve had to resort to a feeding tube on 3 separate occasions for my kitties, so if you have any questions, let me know. Is it an E-tube (in through the side of the neck), or a PEG tube (goes directly into the stomach)?

Here’s more info on feeding tubes: http://www.catinfo.org/feedingtubes.htm
E tube. she isn't eating any cat food or water with her mouth at all now. will she? did your kitties come around? thanks you.

i am also going to a new vet on friday who if i like him will be my regular vet. he said he will work with the hospital vet together to get her well.:fingerscr

meow
January 8th, 2009, 04:59 PM
I missed your updated post about your kitty being in icu. :grouphug:

You have done the best for her, she is now getting nutrition and should be on the mend. Don't feel guilty about having the surgery done, you have done nothing wrong. It is natural for us to put our trust in those who have been educated and license to provide a service to know what is best. :grouphug:thank you. sometimes i feel soooo guilty i cry. my stress is bad and i have anxiety. i try to talk very positive to kitty and not show her my feelings so she can get better

meow
January 8th, 2009, 05:00 PM
So sorry your kitty is going through so much! But everyone is right. Please don't blame yourself.
Pure pumpkin should be on the same shelf as the pie filling. I see you are in CT. Don't know if your stores carry E.D.Smith or not but if so they have pure pumpkin. They should be almost side by side. And you are right, kitty may not like it. You can mix it in with her food though and she won't know it's there.
L4H gave you a list of quality foods you can feed her. Sugarcatmom gave you some wonderful sites to check out. :thumbs up That should give you tons of reading to do for the next little while. On top of that you will be shocked by the info given. Very interesting.
Sending lots of :pray::fingerscr:goodvibes: for kitty.
thank you. i wonder if i bought pure pumpkin. it was in a can. she didn't like it.

meow
January 8th, 2009, 05:02 PM
RC is not good food at all :yuck:

Check the ingredients on the can. Human grade quality of meat should be used and remember cats are carnivores, so the majority of the ingredients should be meat.

Royal Canin, check and compare the ingredients to the better foods below:

http://www.royalcanin.ca/products/feline_en.php

http://www.catinfo.org/

My favourite foods are: They all use human grade meat/ingredients, NO byproducts.

Nature's Variety Instinct:

http://www.naturesvariety.com/instinct_cat_can

Wellness, grain free and Core varieties:

http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/cat_wellness_can_beef_chicken.html

Organics, By Nature:

http://www.bynaturepetfoods.com/productpages/organiccannedcat.php#ttl

thank you for all this information. i will read it on the weekend. no time now but i will rtead it. thank you. funny kitty only liked royal canin and that is why i gave it to her. maybe she likes junk food. LOL

meow
January 8th, 2009, 05:08 PM
If I could give you the biggest hug right now, I would. It’s tough, but hang in there, your baby is in good hands now. A feeding tube is the best thing for her at this point, and will help speed her recovery. I’ve had to resort to a feeding tube on 3 separate occasions for my kitties, so if you have any questions, let me know. Is it an E-tube (in through the side of the neck), or a PEG tube (goes directly into the stomach)?

Here’s more info on feeding tubes: http://www.catinfo.org/feedingtubes.htmthank you for this url. it gave me hope.:)

meow
January 9th, 2009, 06:51 PM
MY KITTY ATE WITH HER MOUTH:D:goodvibes::cat::D

I went to the pet store and bought 8 varieties of food and decided i would try each one at feeding time. California Naturals (i think that is the name) she ate! she didn't eat much, maybe a few tablespoons but she ate and i am sooooooo o happy.:D:D:D:D

We went to our new vet today. he is very nice and so is his staff! :thumbs up we will never ever go back to the surgeon and the new vet told me not to. the new vet encouraged me to take her back to the icu hospital internist tomorrow and he will work hand and hand with her.

badger
January 9th, 2009, 07:25 PM
FANTASTIC!! I was a bit nervous, opening this thread, but no more. Glad you've got a new vet whom you trust and that things are looking UP.

sugarcatmom
January 9th, 2009, 07:44 PM
MY KITTY ATE WITH HER MOUTH:D:goodvibes::cat::D


Wooohooooo!!!!! That's an awesome sign. My cats also recovered and did eat on their own, but it took 3 months. So you're way ahead of the game.

growler~GateKeeper
January 9th, 2009, 10:39 PM
Excellant progress! :highfive:

Love4himies
January 10th, 2009, 06:46 AM
I am so happy to hear that. She is coming along very quickly :highfive: :thumbs up.

chico2
January 10th, 2009, 07:35 AM
I too was very apprehensive opening this thread,we've had so much bad news lately,but this is wonderful news,thank you:thumbs up

Jim Hall
January 10th, 2009, 10:42 AM
wooo hooooo congrats :thumbs up

kiara
January 11th, 2009, 11:18 AM
Your vet sounds harsh, please don't listen to his advice. Cat's gums heal quickly, but you have to consider that this is a very elderly cat and had all his top teeth removed and needs some time to recouperate. Is he on pain medication? If not, I would request it. Maybe you could try some new treats soaked in water and tuna without salt, some cooked chicken. Also lots of love and gentle petting goes a long way.

rainbow
January 11th, 2009, 01:21 PM
I just read this entire thread now and just wanted to give you a hug for all you've been through :grouphug: ....you are a really great kitty mom. :angel:

So glad that your girl is finally eating :highfive: ....you must be so relieved. :grouphug: :goodvibes:



thank you. i wonder if i bought pure pumpkin. it was in a can. she didn't like it.

If you ever need to use the pure pumpkin again try baby food butternut squash instead.....cats often like that much better. :)

meow
January 15th, 2009, 04:07 PM
Thanks everyone. Kitty ate 1x and stopped. she has not eaten in 6 days with her mouth. she is still on the Etube. I asked new vet and ICU vet if that hurt and they both say it shouldnt. i am trying EVERY canned food i can....different varieites and flavors. nothing. she won't drink water. she ate and drank when she came home and then stopped so the etube was put in. monday i had a scare b/c she vomitted profusely so we went back to i.d. food.
it has been 1 month since her surgery. new vet and icu vet don't think she needs pain meds anymore. i dunno. kitty let the icu vet touch her gums with no meds/sedative. kitty is starting to act like herself and look more alert. what can i do to get her to eat? she is on an appetite stimulant. nothing. :(
any ideas?:shrug: she won't eat baby food, cat food, her dry cat food soaked in water....nothing. it scares me.


I love my kitty with all my heart. I hired a pet sitter to check on her and pet her at lunch when i am at work and to report to me b/c i was worried sick. it has helped. he is professional and nice and they all know him at my new vet.

thank you for your help so far.

sugarcatmom
January 15th, 2009, 04:42 PM
what can i do to get her to eat? she is on an appetite stimulant. nothing. :(
any ideas?:shrug: she won't eat baby food, cat food, her dry cat food soaked in water....nothing. it scares me.

It may just take some time. She's been through a lot and her little body has to recuperate from everything. It's a very good sign that she's looking more alert. The previous times that I've had to use a feeding tube, it took 3 months before my cats would eat on their own. I know of another person who's cat had one in for 7 months. That was several years ago and the cat is doing great today. So even though it might seem hopeless, don't give up. As long as your girl is otherwise improving, that's something to go on.

How are the feedings going?

I hired a pet sitter to check on her and pet her at lunch when i am at work and to report to me b/c i was worried sick. it has helped.

That's a fabulous idea. I used to drive home at lunch everyday but it was pretty exhausting.

Hang in there, you're doing awesome. :grouphug:

Love4himies
January 16th, 2009, 08:31 AM
A previous boss of mine had to have her cat put on an eating tube and it took months before her kitty ate, that was about 10 years ago and her cat is healthy and happy today.

:grouphug: for you and sending some :goodvibes: for your kitty to start eating on her own.

dustybird
January 16th, 2009, 06:00 PM
I don't really have anything to add as everyone has given any advice I could think of. So I just wanted to send lots of :grouphug: and:goodvibes:

meow
January 17th, 2009, 03:46 PM
Thanks I guess it takes time. Sometimes she will eat 1/4 can and then the next day I offer her the exact thing she loved and she turns her nose up at it. I feel like we have been through hell. The surgeon who operated on her is NOT the only one (oral surgeon) in my state! He is a board certified dental/oral surgeon BUT I found out he got it through an alternate pathway so he never did a residency in dentisry:yell::wall::eek: My new vet encouraged me to report him to the licensing board for misrepresentation and doing too much surgery all at once and for not letting me visit her in 2 weeks.:cry2: I am so angry.

Then I found out my cat has BEGINNING signs of renal disease. Guess what: no sign sign of this pre-surgery but now showing signs post-surgery. I feel like I am going to throw up. I love my kitty with all my heart. I thought I was helping her and it turned out I think I hurt her!:eek::mad::eek::eek::cry::cry:
They are now going to put her on Hill's k.d. thru the feeding tube. the vet said to give her whatever she will eat by mouth for now. once the feeding tube is out then we have to work on transitioning her to a low protein diet. I am SO ANGRY at the surgeon of lying, misrepresenting himself and playing on my emotions. If it is allowed i will post his name on here so no one ever goes to him! :censored:

I feel horrible. I know I shouldn't blame myself b/c at the time I thought I was doing the right thing. But now I feel sooooooooo bad for my little friend.:cat:

She is doing more things that seem like her: walking with her tail sitcking up :), jumping onto bed at night, sitting in sun, purring. These are good signs but she has that stupid collar on her head and hates it. i would too if I were her. sorry venting. I take it off when we watch tv on the couch and when I feed her.

meow
January 17th, 2009, 03:51 PM
[QUOTE=sugarcatmom;732399]

How are the feedings going?

QUOTE]
she is very compliant. she lays in my lap and lets me do it. as soon as we are done she wants to run out of the bathroom though. I sit in the bathroom and do it so if it makes a mess it is on tile. also i take her collar off and if she bolts i don't want her going anywhere and hiding and pulling out the tube. she usually purrs when i do the tube feeding and i can tell she knows i am helping her. she is an :angel:

chico2
January 17th, 2009, 04:07 PM
Awww Meow,that little girl has been through hell on earth for sure,but she's lucky she has you to love her and care for her.
Cats are mysterious,what they love to eat one day,they'll turn their noses up to,the next.
I would feed her a good variety of Wellness cans or any other good food,I always vary my cats food,so they don't get bored.
How serious is the beginning of renal failure,it does not have to be bad and she will not have to eat the vet-food,Sugarcatmom and Growler,I am sure know what to feed her.
:grouphug:to you and your little girl..

sugarcatmom
January 17th, 2009, 08:11 PM
Thanks I guess it takes time. Sometimes she will eat 1/4 can and then the next day I offer her the exact thing she loved and she turns her nose up at it.

My cat does the exact same thing. Which is why he's now trained me to offer him a different brand or flavour at every meal. Perhaps your kitty is the same.

Then I found out my cat has BEGINNING signs of renal disease. Guess what: no sign sign of this pre-surgery but now showing signs post-surgery.

Sorry to hear that. Do you know what painkiller it was that they used? Also, I don't suppose you have (or can get) a copy of the lab work that indicates she has renal issues? The urinalysis along with the blood panel would be helpful.

They are now going to put her on Hill's k.d. thru the feeding tube.

Please don't use K/D. This is a horrible food and it's use for renal issues in cats is completely misguided. She needs a normal amount of protein, it's the phosphorus that should be limited, and there are much better foods that fit the bill. Depending on her blood work, she may be a candidate for phosphorus binders or other medications/supplements. Here is some info for you on CRF in cats:
http://felineoutreach.org/EducationDetail.asp?cat=KidneyDisease
http://www.felinecrf.com/index.htm
http://www.felinecrf.org/

I'd suggest finding some Innova Evo 95% venison and/or beef and tube-feeding her that instead of the K/D. You could also offer her Felidae Chicken & Rice (would be difficult to tube feed unless blenderized very fine). These have low phosphorus but much better quality ingredients than anything Hill's has to offer.

I feel horrible. I know I shouldn't blame myself b/c at the time I thought I was doing the right thing. But now I feel sooooooooo bad for my little friend.:cat:
:grouphug: All we can do is the best we can given the info that we have. Please don't blame yourself!!! And I know this may be really hard right now, but try to put on your happy face for your girl. Cat's are extremely sensitive to our emotions and she may be picking up on your anguish.


She is doing more things that seem like her: walking with her tail sitcking up :), jumping onto bed at night, sitting in sun, purring.

Awesome! These are definitely excellent signs.

rainbow
January 17th, 2009, 09:33 PM
meow, I am so sorry to hear about your poor kitty. :grouphug:

Besides all the excellent information that sugarcatmom gave you :thumbs up ....here is the thread that growler has ongoing about her kitty with kidney disease ......

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=45017&highlight=feline+kidney+disease

growler~GateKeeper
January 18th, 2009, 01:20 AM
My new vet encouraged me to report him to the licensing board for misrepresentation and doing too much surgery all at once and for not letting me visit her in 2 weeks.:cry2: I am so angry.

I agree you should be reporting this vet to the licensing board/veterinary medical association in your state. :2cents:

Then I found out my cat has BEGINNING signs of renal disease. Guess what: no sign sign of this pre-surgery but now showing signs post-surgery.

Do you or your vet have the notes the Dr wrote regarding the surgery? or did the surgeon give you a complete breakdown of the bill - showing what was used for anaesthesia and how it was administered? There has been some talk from vet techs about the procedure of "gassing or masking down" adversely affecting animals with existing kidney or heart issues.

Depends on what the results are from the blood testing and the urine test. For example: if the BUN/urea & creatinine numbers rise rapidly but the Urine Specific Gravity is normal you may be looking at a kidney infection, kidney stones or hypertension not necessarily kidney failure. If the BUN/urea is high but the creatinine is normal you are looking at dehydration or gastro-intestinal problems. If the BUN/urea and phosphorus are high but creatinine is normal or only slightly elevated there are other issues happening in the tubes before the kidneys. BUN/urea & creatinine alone can not determine kidney failure the USG is a very important measure in kidney disease.

They are now going to put her on Hill's k.d. thru the feeding tube. the vet said to give her whatever she will eat by mouth for now. once the feeding tube is out then we have to work on transitioning her to a low protein diet.

The low protein is best for kidney failure way of thinking is not the most updated thoughts for feeding a kidney cat. The protein level can be normal same for all cats, you just need to watch the phosphorus levels, try to keep that low. If you lower the protein level it adversely affects the cats biological need for protein to maintain muscle mass etc. The quality of the protein is important though. The phosphorus is what makes the kidneys work harder to clear out not so much with the protein. My grrl is 17 years old we've been dealing with Chronic Renal Failure for almost 2 years now & she's eating raw food & doing great on it.

The Wellness Turkey, Chicken, Beef & Chicken are the lowest phos levels of the quality holistic canned foods. Sugarcatmom can advise you about how/when to use those for the etube since I have no experience with that. :)

She is doing more things that seem like her: walking with her tail sitcking up :), jumping onto bed at night, sitting in sun, purring.

With any illness how the cat feels is very important in their recovery/maintenance. Sounds like she's feeling pretty good :highfive: BTW What's her name? :D

chico2
January 18th, 2009, 06:35 AM
OMG,I am sooo proud of our kitty-gurus,you girls are amazing:grouphug:

meow
January 18th, 2009, 08:10 AM
Awww Meow,that little girl has been through hell on earth for sure,but she's lucky she has you to love her and care for her.
Cats are mysterious,what they love to eat one day,they'll turn their noses up to,the next.
I would feed her a good variety of Wellness cans or any other good food,I always vary my cats food,so they don't get bored.
How serious is the beginning of renal failure,it does not have to be bad and she will not have to eat the vet-food,Sugarcatmom and Growler,I am sure know what to feed her.
:grouphug:to you and your little girl..
they say it is the beginning,. beginning. she was fine pre-surgery. now her urine is not concentrated. they will keep checking it each week for a bit

meow
January 18th, 2009, 08:13 AM
My cat does the exact same thing. Which is why he's now trained me to offer him a different brand or flavour at every meal. Perhaps your kitty is the same.



Sorry to hear that. Do you know what painkiller it was that they used? Also, I don't suppose you have (or can get) a copy of the lab work that indicates she has renal issues? The urinalysis along with the blood panel would be helpful.



Please don't use K/D. This is a horrible food and it's use for renal issues in cats is completely misguided. She needs a normal amount of protein, it's the phosphorus that should be limited, and there are much better foods that fit the bill. Depending on her blood work, she may be a candidate for phosphorus binders or other medications/supplements. Here is some info for you on CRF in cats:
http://felineoutreach.org/EducationDetail.asp?cat=KidneyDisease
http://www.felinecrf.com/index.htm
http://www.felinecrf.org/

I'd suggest finding some Innova Evo 95% venison and/or beef and tube-feeding her that instead of the K/D. You could also offer her Felidae Chicken & Rice (would be difficult to tube feed unless blenderized very fine). These have low phosphorus but much better quality ingredients than anything Hill's has to offer.


:grouphug: All we can do is the best we can given the info that we have. Please don't blame yourself!!! And I know this may be really hard right now, but try to put on your happy face for your girl. Cat's are extremely sensitive to our emotions and she may be picking up on your anguish.




Awesome! These are definitely excellent signs. I will discuss other food options with the vet. They don't seem to have the same opinion of the food you all do here. I understand that organic is better. Many vets (like dr's) don't understand nutirition. Thank you for your help. I know. I am trying to put on a happy face for kitty. I love her.

meow
January 18th, 2009, 08:17 AM
I agree you should be reporting this vet to the licensing board/veterinary medical association in your state. :2cents:



Do you or your vet have the notes the Dr wrote regarding the surgery? or did the surgeon give you a complete breakdown of the bill - showing what was used for anaesthesia and how it was administered? There has been some talk from vet techs about the procedure of "gassing or masking down" adversely affecting animals with existing kidney or heart issues.

Depends on what the results are from the blood testing and the urine test. For example: if the BUN/urea & creatinine numbers rise rapidly but the Urine Specific Gravity is normal you may be looking at a kidney infection, kidney stones or hypertension not necessarily kidney failure. If the BUN/urea is high but the creatinine is normal you are looking at dehydration or gastro-intestinal problems. If the BUN/urea and phosphorus are high but creatinine is normal or only slightly elevated there are other issues happening in the tubes before the kidneys. BUN/urea & creatinine alone can not determine kidney failure the USG is a very important measure in kidney disease.



The low protein is best for kidney failure way of thinking is not the most updated thoughts for feeding a kidney cat. The protein level can be normal same for all cats, you just need to watch the phosphorus levels, try to keep that low. If you lower the protein level it adversely affects the cats biological need for protein to maintain muscle mass etc. The quality of the protein is important though. The phosphorus is what makes the kidneys work harder to clear out not so much with the protein. My grrl is 17 years old we've been dealing with Chronic Renal Failure for almost 2 years now & she's eating raw food & doing great on it.

The Wellness Turkey, Chicken, Beef & Chicken are the lowest phos levels of the quality holistic canned foods. Sugarcatmom can advise you about how/when to use those for the etube since I have no experience with that. :)



With any illness how the cat feels is very important in their recovery/maintenance. Sounds like she's feeling pretty good :highfive: BTW What's her name? :D
i do not want to post her name here in case the bad vet sees this. i have to wait. i will share what you said with the vet. yes i have pre-op and post-op blood work and urinalysis.

Love4himies
January 18th, 2009, 08:19 AM
I am so, so sorry to hear about your kitty :cry:. I would report him and would be telling my old vet about him too so he doesn't send anybody else to this "dental surgeon".

meow
January 18th, 2009, 08:22 AM
How do i do wellness in a feeding tube? How much food to how much water?
what size can of food?

thank you

meow
January 18th, 2009, 08:55 AM
I do see my kitty drinking water at her drinkwell bowl 1-2x per day. she looks like she is drinking alot of water. she is on hills i.d. food now thru the tube and is holding it down. i offer her wellness, paul newman, meow mix, fancy feast, harmony by mouth...at this point anything to get her to eat with her mouth. she eats by moouth about 1x every 6 days.


On the receipt for surgery it says Buprenex for the anthesthic. it also says ket-valo sedation. it also says isoflurane and propofol/ketamine/diazepam. all this is from the surgery receipt. then they put her on gabapentin.

she stayed at the vet for 2 weeks and he would not let me visit her so i have NO idea what the :censored: was done to her in that time.

I have no idea what any of these numbers mean but here they are PRE-OP:

Urea Nitrogen 33 - normal range
Creatine 1.9 - normal range
phosphorus 3.7 - normal
BUN 17 - normal range
amylase 1625 - high - what is this?

do you want to know anything else?? I'll post it. :)

2 weeks later after being held hostage at vet for 2 weeks:
Urea Nitrogen 32
Creatine 3.5 - high
BUN - 9 normal but low
hemaocrit - 21.4 low

Then I took her to the ICU hospital. They human scored blood work and said she was not anemic:

CREA a little high 3.0
PHOS normal 5.0
GLOB slightly high 4.6
everything else was normal

Two days ago they did a urine test. I don't have results b/c new vet called me on phone with them. urine was not concentrated. i think he said it was 1.something. he wants to re-check it when i bring her in thursday.

meow
January 18th, 2009, 08:56 AM
I am so, so sorry to hear about your kitty :cry:. I would report him and would be telling my old vet about him too so he doesn't send anybody else to this "dental surgeon". i will but want to wait to see what happens

meow
January 18th, 2009, 09:14 AM
i found this website
http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canned.htm

if i am reading this right it looks like science diet senior chicken would be the best choice.

she is on Hills i.d. now which looks better than the k/d

i am mixed up and overwhelmed

oh the science diet is listed here http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canfood.htm

meow
January 18th, 2009, 10:22 AM
It looks like i can't just write a letter and complain. It goes through a hearing prcoess.

http://www.ct.gov/dph/lib/dph/facility_licensing_and_investigations/pdf/consumer_guide.pdf

I can't take time off from work for any hearing. I did get the dental xrays via email today:thumbs up and am going to take them to a real dentist for review. then i will write my letter.

My cat's name is simba :cat:

sugarcatmom
January 18th, 2009, 11:44 AM
she is on hills i.d. food now thru the tube and is holding it down.

Good that she's holding it down, but I/D is a really crappy food. All the Hill's products are, but vets are blinded by the propaganda. Here are the ingredients for I/D:

Water, Pork Liver, Pork By-Products, Chicken, Wheat Flour, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Corn Starch, Brewers Rice, Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Liver Flavor, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Powdered Cellulose, ....

I'd like a vet to point out to me what ingredients in this food they think make it so great for a cat with "gastrointestinal disorders" (which is what it's "prescribed" for). No food should have pork liver as it's first ingredients. Wheat flour, cornstarch, brewers rice, beet pulp, powdered cellulose - completely inappropriate for ANY cat, never mind one that's recovering from illness and surgery. ARGH!!! It makes me so mad that vets have been so brainwashed by Hill's that they can't see how crappy this stuff is. There are much better options for you to feed Simba.

On the receipt for surgery it says Buprenex for the anthesthic. it also says ket-valo sedation. it also says isoflurane and propofol/ketamine/diazepam. all this is from the surgery receipt. then they put her on gabapentin.

The gabapentin caught my attention. Use of this drug in cats is fairly new and there isn't enough data on how safe it is. There was a WINN feline foundation study about a year ago but I have no idea what results they came up with. In theory, it should be fine because it has a wide safety margin in other species, but cats are their own unique little beings and should never be lumped in with the rest of us mere mortals. Here are some recent comments from a page about feline orofacial pain:

There is little veterinary experience with the drug gabapentin (Neurontin®) and its adverse effects in cats are unknown, however, in people there is a very wide safety margin, and it has been used successfully in the treatment of human facial pain disorders (Schachter & Carrazana, 1997). A dose rate of 3 mg/kg PO SID has been suggested for the treatment of chronic pain in cats, and up to 10-30 mg/kg PO q 8h for refractory seizures (Plumb, 2005). Gabapentin (Neurontin®) is available in New Zealand as 100 mg capsules. As for phenobarbitone, attempts should be made to wean the cat off any alternative antiepileptic drug after 4 weeks if the clinical signs have resolved (Rusbridge, Feline Orofacial Pain Syndrome: Face and tongue mutilation syndrome in Burmese cats, 2008). Gabapentin is excreted unchanged by the kidneys, are required in renal compromise (NEURONTIN® data sheet, 2007), therefore renal parameters (serum biochemistry and urine specific gravity) should be checked prior to commencing treatment. An example of how gabapentin can be used in a treatment plan for cats with feline orofacial pain syndrome is described below in the recommendations for treatment. It is important to bear in mind that pharmacokinetic studies of gabapentin in cats is lacking, and although the safety margins are high in humans and rodents (NEURONTIN® data sheet, 2007); it is not certain whether this is the case in cats. Therefore treatment should be started using low doses, and owners should be warned of the potential for adverse effects. More information about gabapentin (Neurontin ®) is available at the Medsafe Website (see works cited).

she stayed at the vet for 2 weeks and he would not let me visit her so i have NO idea what the :censored: was done to her in that time.

I can't believe they didn't let you visit her during that time. That's outrageous and inhumane.

I have no idea what any of these numbers mean

I'll leave the numbers for growler to comment on. The USG is probably the most important piece of the puzzle so hopefully you can get that value.

sugarcatmom
January 18th, 2009, 11:57 AM
How do i do wellness in a feeding tube? How much food to how much water?
what size can of food?

thank you

What is the current recipe you are using with the I/D? It shouldn't be too drastically different. You just need it to be thin enough to get through the tube without clogging. Do you smoosh it through a sieve as well after blenderizing it? That's the best way to ensure there are no lumps that could get stuck.

Wellness is a really good food and it does have lower phosphorus than most foods (particularly the Turkey and Kitten flavours), plus it's readily available. The Innova Venison or Beef and the Felidae I mentioned above actually have even lower phosphorus levels, in case you want other options. There are some others too, like Precise in Triple Delight or Turkey or Chicken. It's important to look at more than just the phosphorus levels, the quality of the ingredients should also be a factor. Which is why even though the Science Diet choices might look good on paper, their poor quality ingredients take them out of the running. Here is a more up-to-date canned food listing showing phosphorus amounts: http://www.geocities.com/jmpeerson/CanFoodNew.html

Love4himies
January 18th, 2009, 12:28 PM
Sugarcatmom, I really don't think the vets read the ingredients on the food labels of what they sell. That is the only explanation I have for them to recommend this crap food.

meow
January 18th, 2009, 06:03 PM
What is the current recipe you are using with the I/D? It shouldn't be too drastically different. You just need it to be thin enough to get through the tube without clogging. Do you smoosh it through a sieve as well after blenderizing it? That's the best way to ensure there are no lumps that could get stuck.

Wellness is a really good food and it does have lower phosphorus than most foods (particularly the Turkey and Kitten flavours), plus it's readily available. The Innova Venison or Beef and the Felidae I mentioned above actually have even lower phosphorus levels, in case you want other options. There are some others too, like Precise in Triple Delight or Turkey or Chicken. It's important to look at more than just the phosphorus levels, the quality of the ingredients should also be a factor. Which is why even though the Science Diet choices might look good on paper, their poor quality ingredients take them out of the running. Here is a more up-to-date canned food listing showing phosphorus amounts: http://www.geocities.com/jmpeerson/CanFoodNew.html

Thank you for the link. I do not see wellness on the list. Right now I take a 5.5 oz can and put 40ml of water in it. I put it in a magic bullet and make it blenderize for as long as possible so it become liquidy.

meow
January 18th, 2009, 06:06 PM
Sugarcatmom, I really don't think the vets read the ingredients on the food labels of what they sell. That is the only explanation I have for them to recommend this crap food.
simba did eat the wellness fish with her mouth 1x. she has not eaten it since. i am offering her everything under the sun at each feeding. i can't make rhyme of reason of it. of course she wants the crap: meow mix. she must be a junk food eater.:rolleyes: now that i think of it i was feeding her L/D and i wonder if that made her urine not be concentrated. something i will have to check out.

meow
January 18th, 2009, 06:18 PM
I don't see a USG result. is that on a blood or urine test?

meow
January 18th, 2009, 06:23 PM
I can't believe they didn't let you visit her during that time. That's outrageous and inhumane.



I agree 100+%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was beside myself and had to take valium b/c i could not sleep or function. I was crying all the time. He said "leave her here or take her home." after all that surgery and no place else to take her i left her there. God only know what was given to her and what the :censored: was done to her in that time:mad::mad::mad::mad:
You have no idea how anxious and upset I was. Finally i demanded to have her and took her to the ICU hospital. It is $1,000 a night for your cat to stay that the ICU hospital (seriously)......who can afford that????? well this is CT for ya...they think everyone is rich. they sent her home with me and showed me how to tube feed and said she would get better faster with her mommy :thumbs up:lovestruck:

Believe me this "surgeon" has no idea who he messed with. Before I do anything I am going to a vet dentist for a 2nd opinion. This surgeon also lied to me and told me he was the only one in the state....he isn't.

badger
January 18th, 2009, 06:37 PM
What a piece of work. I hope you have lots of documentation because unfortunately, birds of a feather not only flock together but protect each other. Save every scrap of paper. Of course the anecdotal stuff will be equally important.
Barring someone from visiting a sick pet is inhuman.
It should be possible for you to get the word out, without landing yourself in legal hot water. Recommending the competition ain't against the law, is it?

Good luck to your kitty. I'm sure being at home with you will make all the difference.

meow
January 18th, 2009, 06:46 PM
SugarCat Mom: I do not see a phosphorus level for wellness. i looked at the link you sent and also on their website. do you know. THANK YOU

Badgar: I don't think it is slandar if you are talking to one person and you state the facts. It is slander if it is send to many people or a public forum. I am told the other dentist doesn't like this guy either. Oh and yes I have saved everything including his stupid, rude emails

sugarcatmom
January 18th, 2009, 07:47 PM
SugarCat Mom: I do not see a phosphorus level for wellness.

Yup, it's there, just down near the bottom of the page. But here you go just in case:

Beef & Chicken 226
Chicken 219
Chicken & Herring 303
Chicken & Lobster 264
Kitten (3 oz can) 216
Salmon & Trout 248
Sardines, Shrimp & Crab 293
Turkey 200
Turkey & Salmon 299

It's in mg per 100 Kcalories instead of % of DM like the KatKarma page is. 1% DM phosphorus is roughly equivalent to around 200-240 mg/100Kcal.

As for pursuing action against this vet, you might want to contact Stefani Olsen of The Toonces Project (http://www.thetooncesproject.com/thetooncesproject.html) (scroll down to near the bottom for her email). She was involved in a legal battle with a vet after her cat was given a massive insulin overdose while under his care. She makes it her mission to expose veterinary negligence and might be able to give you some advice.

sugarcatmom
January 18th, 2009, 07:48 PM
I don't see a USG result. is that on a blood or urine test?

That would be on the urine test results. It means urine specific gravity and indicates how well the kidneys are concentrating urine.

growler~GateKeeper
January 18th, 2009, 08:27 PM
I do see my kitty drinking water at her drinkwell bowl 1-2x per day. she looks like she is drinking alot of water.

One thing I've found to be helpful to my vet is to measure the amount of water she is drinking in a week. My grrl has a Petmate water fountain & the see-through resevoir holds 2 cups (in addition to what is in the lower part of the bowl itself). The Drinkwell also has a resevoir so you can keep track of how long it takes Simba to drink the amount in there.

I make note of when I fill the resevoir then make note of how many days it takes for her to finish just what is in the resevoir - once I see that is empty I know how many days it takes for her to drink the 2 cups. Not scientific by any means but gives a good indication of how much she's drinking and when there is an increase/decrease.

Some info on Dental disease in relation to CRF: http://www.felinecrf.org/related_diseases.htm#dental_problems

On the receipt for surgery it says Buprenex for the anthesthic. it also says ket-valo sedation. it also says isoflurane and propofol/ketamine/diazepam. all this is from the surgery receipt. then they put her on gabapentin.

she stayed at the vet for 2 weeks and he would not let me visit her so i have NO idea what the :censored: was done to her in that time.

I have no idea what any of these numbers mean but here they are PRE-OP:

Urea Nitrogen 33 - normal range This is the BUN or sometimes called Urea Nitrogen
Creatine 1.9 - normal range
phosphorus 3.7 - normal
BUN 17 - normal range This is actually the BUN (Urea):Creatinine Ratio shows how much BUN there is relative to the creatinine level Normal range (depending on lab) is generally between 4 and 33
amylase 1625 - high - what is this?

Amylase is an enzyme produced by the pancreas and the intestinal tract, it helps to break down sugar. This can be partially influenced by the food she is eating.

http://www.felinecrf.org/diagnosis.htm#amylase
Amylase (Amyl)

Amylase is a digestive enzyme made in the pancreas that breaks carbohydrates down into simple sugars. Because amylase is made by the pancreas, many vets seem to assume that an increase in this enzyme must indicate pancreatitis. Whilst this is often true for other species, it does not usually apply to cats, particularly CRF cats, because amylase is excreted by the kidneys, so it is by no means uncommon for it to be elevated in CRF. This is not usually a cause for concern - a value up to 2200 is not uncommon in CRF cats. However, if the level is much higher, around three times normal level, and your cat is showing other symptoms of pancreatitis combined with relatively low CRF values that seem to be out of line with how ill your cat is acting, then you might want to rule it out.


do you want to know anything else?? I'll post it. :)

2 weeks later after being held hostage at vet for 2 weeks:
Urea Nitrogen 32
Creatine 3.5 - high
BUN - 9 normal but low
hemaocrit - 21.4 low

I am amazed the vet wouldn't allow you to see her in the 2 weeks she was there :frustrated:. Given what the vet told you to do regarding getting her to eat at home when you brought her home (lock her in a crate & she'll eat eventually) I'm not surprised by the rise in creatinine here. Creatinine is a by product of muscle wasting, so if she was crated for the entire two weeks she wouldn't have been using her muscles running around, jumping on chairs etc.

http://www.felinecrf.org/diagnosis.htm#creatinine
Cats with pancreatitis also sometimes have elevated creatinine levels. If your cat has relatively low creatinine (in the 2s) yet seems lethargic and far more ill than that mild level of kidney failure would suggest, I would consider pancreatitis.

Then I took her to the ICU hospital. They human scored blood work and said she was not anemic:

CREA a little high 3.0
PHOS normal 5.0
GLOB slightly high 4.6
everything else was normal

Two days ago they did a urine test. I don't have results b/c new vet called me on phone with them. urine was not concentrated. i think he said it was 1.something. he wants to re-check it when i bring her in thursday.

Technically, a cat is anaemic if his/her PCV or Haematocrit (HCT) level is below 30% (or with some labs, 25%), but you may not start to see any differences in your cat's behaviour until the level is closer to 20%.

There are two types of Anemia, regenerating and non-regenerating. There are a number of causes of anemia: inflammation or infection, gastro-intestinal bleeding, vit B deficiency etc. The healing process after dental surgery can also give a false anemia reading because the body is storing iron away rather than releasing it into the blood stream to lower the risk of bacterial infection from the surgery sites (bacteria feeds off of iron).


http://www.felinecrf.org/diagnosis.htm#total_protein1
Globulin
This is another protein in blood, and is calculated from the values for albumin and total proteins i.e. globulin = total protein minus albumin. Globulins contain antibodies (immunoglobulins), so high levels may be seen when infection or inflammation is present.

The USG number is very important in determining what level of concentration the kidneys have.

I don't see a USG result. is that on a blood or urine test?

USG = Urine specific gravity, may be listed simply as specific gravity - it will be on the urine test

SugarCat Mom: I do not see a phosphorus level for wellness.

I can give you this one:

CHICKEN
......................As fed Basis,............Dry Matter............g/Per 1000
............................%..................... Basis, %...............KCAL ME
M.E. KCAL/KG.....1411.10...................5253.54.......... ..........-

MOISTURE..........73.14........................-...........................-
PROTEIN.............12.04....................44.83 ......................85.32
FAT...................10.96.....................40 .80.....................77.67
CARBOHYDRATES...1.74.....................6.48..... .................12.33
FIBER..................0.27.....................1. 01........................1.91
ASH....................1.85......................6 .89......................13.11
CALCIUM..............0.36.....................1.34 ........................2.55
PHOSPHORUS........0.31.....................1.15... .....................2.20
POTASSIUM..........0.35.....................1.30.. ......................2.48
SODIUM...............0.09.....................0.34 ........................0.64


CHICKEN & BEEF

........................As fed Basis,..........Dry Matter...........g/Per 1000
.............................%.................... Basis, %...............KCAL ME
M.E. KCAL/KG.....1239.84.................5159.55............ ........-

MOISTURE..........75.97.........................-.....................-
PROTEIN.............11.11...................46.23. ...................89.61
FAT....................9.43....................39. 24....................76.06
CARBOHYDRATES..1.42......................5.91..... ...............11.45
FIBER..................0.26.....................1. 08......................2.10
ASH....................1.81.....................7. 53....................14.60
CALCIUM..............0.31....................1.29. .....................2.50
PHOSPHORUS........0.28....................1.17.... ..................2.26
POTASSIUM..........0.31....................1.29... ...................2.50
SODIUM...............0.09....................0.37. .....................0.73


TURKEY
........................As fed Basis,...........Dry Matter............g/Per 1000
.............................%.................... Basis, %................KCAL ME
M.E. KCAL/KG.......1397.62..................5205.29......... .............-

MOISTURE............73.15.......................-..............................-
PROTEIN...............12.44...................46.3 3.......................89.01
FAT.....................10.63...................39 .59.......................76.06
CARBOHYDRATES....1.67.....................6.22.... ....................11.95
FIBER...................0.27.....................1 .01..........................1.93
ASH.....................1.84.....................6 .85.........................13.17
CALCIUM..............0.33.....................1.22 ...........................2.34
PHOSPHORUS........0.28.....................1.05... ........................2.01
POTASSIUM..........0.32.....................1.18.. .........................2.27
SODIUM................0.08.....................0.3 0..........................0.58


KITTEN
........................As fed Basis,...........Dry Matter............g/Per 1000
.............................%.................... Basis, %................KCAL ME
M.E. KCAL/KG.......1426.60..................5303.35......... .............-

MOISTURE............73.10.......................-..............................-
PROTEIN...............11.49...................42.7 1........................80.54
FAT.....................11.30...................42 .01........................79.21
CARBOHYDRATES....1.99.....................7.40.... ....................13.95
FIBER...................0.25...................... 0.93.........................1.75
ASH.....................1.87...................... 6.95.......................13.11
CALCIUM..............0.45......................1.6 7.........................3.15
PHOSPHORUS........0.31......................1.15.. .......................2.17
POTASSIUM..........0.28......................1.04. ........................1.96
SODIUM...............0.25......................0.9 3.........................1.75

The phosphorus dry matter basis is what you what to look at, ideally it should be as close or lower than 1.00 as possible bearing in mind you want the best ingredients at the same time.

meow
January 19th, 2009, 08:08 AM
Yup, it's there, just down near the bottom of the page. But here you go just in case:

Beef & Chicken 226
Chicken 219
Chicken & Herring 303
Chicken & Lobster 264
Kitten (3 oz can) 216
Salmon & Trout 248
Sardines, Shrimp & Crab 293
Turkey 200
Turkey & Salmon 299

It's in mg per 100 Kcalories instead of % of DM like the KatKarma page is. 1% DM phosphorus is roughly equivalent to around 200-240 mg/100Kcal.

As for pursuing action against this vet, you might want to contact Stefani Olsen of The Toonces Project (http://www.thetooncesproject.com/thetooncesproject.html) (scroll down to near the bottom for her email). She was involved in a legal battle with a vet after her cat was given a massive insulin overdose while under his care. She makes it her mission to expose veterinary negligence and might be able to give you some advice.
thank you for the info and for the link!!!!! I just talked to new vet. he says kitty does not lower protein and the protein directly affects the kidneys. he said protein AND phosphorus need to be lowered. I am going to run it by ICU internist also. i made a call to a dentist to have records reviewed and give me his 2nd opinion )he doesn't need to see kitty). he is not in today but we will talk tomorrow. i am so upset :yell::mad:

meow
January 19th, 2009, 08:08 AM
That would be on the urine test results. It means urine specific gravity and indicates how well the kidneys are concentrating urine.
ok i will ask for copy when i go today

meow
January 19th, 2009, 08:12 AM
One thing I've found to be helpful to my vet is to measure the amount of water she is drinking in a week. My grrl has a Petmate water fountain & the see-through resevoir holds 2 cups (in addition to what is in the lower part of the bowl itself). The Drinkwell also has a resevoir so you can keep track of how long it takes Simba to drink the amount in there.

I make note of when I fill the resevoir then make note of how many days it takes for her to finish just what is in the resevoir - once I see that is empty I know how many days it takes for her to drink the 2 cups. Not scientific by any means but gives a good indication of how much she's drinking and when there is an increase/decrease.

Some info on Dental disease in relation to CRF: http://www.felinecrf.org/related_diseases.htm#dental_problems



Amylase is an enzyme produced by the pancreas and the intestinal tract, it helps to break down sugar. This can be partially influenced by the food she is eating.






I am amazed the vet wouldn't allow you to see her in the 2 weeks she was there :frustrated:. Given what the vet told you to do regarding getting her to eat at home when you brought her home (lock her in a crate & she'll eat eventually) I'm not surprised by the rise in creatinine here. Creatinine is a by product of muscle wasting, so if she was crated for the entire two weeks she wouldn't have been using her muscles running around, jumping on chairs etc.





Technically, a cat is anaemic if his/her PCV or Haematocrit (HCT) level is below 30% (or with some labs, 25%), but you may not start to see any differences in your cat's behaviour until the level is closer to 20%.

There are two types of Anemia, regenerating and non-regenerating. There are a number of causes of anemia: inflammation or infection, gastro-intestinal bleeding, vit B deficiency etc. The healing process after dental surgery can also give a false anemia reading because the body is storing iron away rather than releasing it into the blood stream to lower the risk of bacterial infection from the surgery sites (bacteria feeds off of iron).




The USG number is very important in determining what level of concentration the kidneys have.



USG = Urine specific gravity, may be listed simply as specific gravity - it will be on the urine test



I can give you this one:

CHICKEN
......................As fed Basis,............Dry Matter............g/Per 1000
............................%..................... Basis, %...............KCAL ME
M.E. KCAL/KG.....1411.10...................5253.54.......... ..........-

MOISTURE..........73.14........................-...........................-
PROTEIN.............12.04....................44.83 ......................85.32
FAT...................10.96.....................40 .80.....................77.67
CARBOHYDRATES...1.74.....................6.48..... .................12.33
FIBER..................0.27.....................1. 01........................1.91
ASH....................1.85......................6 .89......................13.11
CALCIUM..............0.36.....................1.34 ........................2.55
PHOSPHORUS........0.31.....................1.15... .....................2.20
POTASSIUM..........0.35.....................1.30.. ......................2.48
SODIUM...............0.09.....................0.34 ........................0.64


CHICKEN & BEEF

........................As fed Basis,..........Dry Matter...........g/Per 1000
.............................%.................... Basis, %...............KCAL ME
M.E. KCAL/KG.....1239.84.................5159.55............ ........-

MOISTURE..........75.97.........................-.....................-
PROTEIN.............11.11...................46.23. ...................89.61
FAT....................9.43....................39. 24....................76.06
CARBOHYDRATES..1.42......................5.91..... ...............11.45
FIBER..................0.26.....................1. 08......................2.10
ASH....................1.81.....................7. 53....................14.60
CALCIUM..............0.31....................1.29. .....................2.50
PHOSPHORUS........0.28....................1.17.... ..................2.26
POTASSIUM..........0.31....................1.29... ...................2.50
SODIUM...............0.09....................0.37. .....................0.73


TURKEY
........................As fed Basis,...........Dry Matter............g/Per 1000
.............................%.................... Basis, %................KCAL ME
M.E. KCAL/KG.......1397.62..................5205.29......... .............-

MOISTURE............73.15.......................-..............................-
PROTEIN...............12.44...................46.3 3.......................89.01
FAT.....................10.63...................39 .59.......................76.06
CARBOHYDRATES....1.67.....................6.22.... ....................11.95
FIBER...................0.27.....................1 .01..........................1.93
ASH.....................1.84.....................6 .85.........................13.17
CALCIUM..............0.33.....................1.22 ...........................2.34
PHOSPHORUS........0.28.....................1.05... ........................2.01
POTASSIUM..........0.32.....................1.18.. .........................2.27
SODIUM................0.08.....................0.3 0..........................0.58


KITTEN
........................As fed Basis,...........Dry Matter............g/Per 1000
.............................%.................... Basis, %................KCAL ME
M.E. KCAL/KG.......1426.60..................5303.35......... .............-

MOISTURE............73.10.......................-..............................-
PROTEIN...............11.49...................42.7 1........................80.54
FAT.....................11.30...................42 .01........................79.21
CARBOHYDRATES....1.99.....................7.40.... ....................13.95
FIBER...................0.25...................... 0.93.........................1.75
ASH.....................1.87...................... 6.95.......................13.11
CALCIUM..............0.45......................1.6 7.........................3.15
PHOSPHORUS........0.31......................1.15.. .......................2.17
POTASSIUM..........0.28......................1.04. ........................1.96
SODIUM...............0.25......................0.9 3.........................1.75

The phosphorus dry matter basis is what you what to look at, ideally it should be as close or lower than 1.00 as possible bearing in mind you want the best ingredients at the same time.

thank you for all this helpful advice. kitty threw up last night and missed the litter box by 6" this morning. i didn't see it happen so i don't know if she couldn't get into the box b/c of the cone. i am not getting a good feeling about her recover.:cry: I keep telling her she is getting better and i need her here with me.

badger
January 19th, 2009, 08:23 AM
I'm sure it was the collar that prevented her from climbing into the litterbox, plus the meds are probably making her feel woozy. Hang in there, meow, focus on the small victories, it will get better, she's come this far, hasn't she?

meow
January 19th, 2009, 08:38 AM
I'm sure it was the collar that prevented her from climbing into the litterbox, plus the meds are probably making her feel woozy. Hang in there, meow, focus on the small victories, it will get better, she's come this far, hasn't she?

thank you so much. she has. i just placed 2 calls to 2 dentists to see if they will do a review of what was done to tell me if it was even needed. we did a pancreas test and are waiting for results.

sugarcatmom
January 19th, 2009, 11:43 AM
he said protein AND phosphorus need to be lowered.

Nope, he's wrong. The thing is, vets really don't know a great deal about feline nutrition and when they say the protein needs to be lowered for CRF kitties, they're basing that on an ancient study done on RATS. Rats are not cats. I know it's confusing to hear one thing from strangers on some message board and completely the opposite from a vet, who is assumed to be knowledgable about this stuff, but I would bet money on the fact that I've done more reading and research on this subject in the last 6 years than this vet ever has. Plus, I don't have a vested interest in selling a product. Nor do I have sales reps for these products coming to my home and bombarding me with their dubious propaganda.

meow
January 19th, 2009, 05:56 PM
sugarmom: yes my vet admitted he doesnt know about holistic health. so do you think wellness turkey and beef/chicken would be good choices? what about wysong uretic? I think it only comes dry but if i soak it in water and blenderize it, it could make it a liquid. (wouldn't know how much food to water ration though).

Ok, Simba's USG was 1.013 and cloudy on 1/17/09 :(

I am putting the food thru a strainer after i blend it and i am amazed at all the little hunks it gets out. thanks for that tidbit!

meow
January 19th, 2009, 05:59 PM
Ph of urine was 5.5 lowest end of normal
USG: 1.013 - low
appearance: cloudy
Protein: negative
the rest of the test looks normal

sugarcatmom
January 19th, 2009, 07:22 PM
so do you think wellness turkey and beef/chicken would be good choices?

Yup, that would be fine. The Chicken and Kitten varieties are also good. Just stay away from the fishy ones.

what about wysong uretic?

Not a good idea. For one, it has some icky ingredients like oats, wheat and plums (??plums?? seriously?). But the big issue with it is going to be in relation to Simba's urine ph, which is quite acidic. The Uretic formula has an acidifier added and your going to get into trouble with calcium oxalate crystals if the ph goes down anymore.

As for the rest of her urinalyis, the USG is alarmingly low, and the fact that her urine is cloudy is a concern. Did they analyze the sediment at all? There could be a number of things causing the cloudiness, from bacteria to crystals to blood etc.

I gotta run but maybe growler will chime in with some additional info for you.

Jim Hall
January 19th, 2009, 07:38 PM
i just have to say, Sugarcat you are incredible!!! We are getting such an education here


Hows kitty doing meow?

growler~GateKeeper
January 19th, 2009, 11:27 PM
kitty threw up last night and missed the litter box by 6" this morning.

Gross question I know but...What did the vomit consist of and what colour was it? mostly water? food? hairball? clear/yellow/white/brown?

Has she pooped recently? Alot of kidney cats that are constipated will throw up from the strain of trying to poop.

I know it's not always possible but if you see her heading for the litterbox, you could remove the cone long enough for her to do her business, then put it back on, it will give her a better frame of mind going to use the box & going outside the box hopefully won't become a habit cuz it's easier.

Ph of urine was 5.5 lowest end of normal
USG: 1.013 - low
appearance: cloudy
Protein: negative
the rest of the test looks normal

Did they do a urine culture? As SCM mentions the cloudyness is not normal. The normal range on lab tests for ph is 5.5 - 7 ideally it should be 6-6.5
With the ph being low & the cloudyness there could be infection or crystals or something else in there

What colour was it? That should be listed near appearance.

Have you set up to measure how much water she is drinking? - this will be important to your vet in determining if she should start fluid therapy.

The USG is alarmingly low - does any of the reports you have list the cat being on IV fluids other than during the actual surgery? During the 2 week stay was she on IV fluids? On the invoice/Drs notes it would be listed as LRS or Lactated Ringers Solution.

In CRF cats the USG will probably be between 1.008 and 1.012, my grrl's last USG test showed higher (better) than that even though she was at the time on twice weekly fluids. Once a cat goes on regular fluid therapy the USG is not as reliable a measure.

On the most recent blood test was there a T4 or Tetraiodothyronine T4 amount tested? If so what is the number?

Other causes of low USG include Hyperthyroid, Diabetes, Liver disease, kidney infections, the use of corticosteroids such as prednisone and prednisolone.

meow
January 20th, 2009, 05:06 AM
Thank you. I have to go to work and can't look it up now but will post later. YES she was on IV for the 2 weeks he held her hostage! God only knows what else happened to her. Yes she has pooped and the poop looked normal considering the food change.

urine

appearance: cloudy
Color: yellow

meow
January 20th, 2009, 05:07 AM
Yup, that would be fine. The Chicken and Kitten varieties are also good. Just stay away from the fishy ones.



Not a good idea. For one, it has some icky ingredients like oats, wheat and plums (??plums?? seriously?). But the big issue with it is going to be in relation to Simba's urine ph, which is quite acidic. The Uretic formula has an acidifier added and your going to get into trouble with calcium oxalate crystals if the ph goes down anymore.

As for the rest of her urinalyis, the USG is alarmingly low, and the fact that her urine is cloudy is a concern. Did they analyze the sediment at all? There could be a number of things causing the cloudiness, from bacteria to crystals to blood etc.

I gotta run but maybe growler will chime in with some additional info for you. thank you. how did you learn all this? i am amazed.

meow
January 20th, 2009, 08:22 AM
Growler: she puked right after i tube fed her. it was 100% food puke. ( i tube feed her over 20-30 minutes so i didn't go too fast but perhaps the volume of food was too much).no hairballs..she isn't grooming herself b/c she has a cone on her head most of the time. when i am RIGHT THERE with her i take it off and she it so happy to sleep with it off that she curls up to sleep comfortably.. My new vet is helping me get a 2nd dentist opinion from a major university dental chairman. We are suspicious that she didn't even need this surgery at all. Then i find out after the fact the "surgeon" never did a residency in dentistry. he was grandfathered in. He has listed himself as a member of a certain medical association which my new vet says he isn't a member of, which is misrepresentation. Whatever happened to her there cause this kidney problem. :wall: I feel soooooo guilty. I am her mom and I took her to that monster. I can tell you if i get a 2nd opinion from a board certified dentist who did a residency in dentristy that none of this was needed, the *&^%%$$((&^ is gonna hit the fan! I am sooooooooo :evil: mad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Simba acts uncomfortable with the cone and tube in her. She doesn't act like she is in pain. She refuses to eat anything and what concerns me the most is that she prefers to climb on my lap and be tube fed, versus eating! What do I do? I give her lots of pets and love when i am not tube feeding her so it is not like she wants to be tube fed for the love. I have tried feeding her every brand of food, good, bad and indifferent in every flavor JUST to get her to eat. she won't. she drinks with her mouth and she "bit" a string with her mouth when i was shaking it for her to play with. so i don't think she is having mouth soreness (it is now 4.5 weeks since surgery). What do I do??? Will she ever eat??? I keep telling her in a loving way that as soon as she eats we can take the tube and cone out and she can be "free." It isn't working.

I am really glad I found this website. I KNEW this idiot holding her hostage for 2 weeks was BAD but i had no where to turn. Then the thing with putting her in a cage was HORRIBLE! I kept thinking he was a board certified dentist who knew what he was doing and my gut said it wasn't right. i am glad everyone here was honest with me. I could ball my eyes out all day and night over this but I act happy around kitty and tell her i love her and i am trying to help her and she will get better. But inside i feel SICK!

Oh she is still on Baytril about 20 mg's per day because the idiot said she has a terrible infection on the bone of her mouth. now we don't even know if that is true but we don't want to stop it til we KNOW from a dentist that she needs it or not. The new vet was gonna keep her on it for 6 weeks, assuming she really did have a done infection in her mouth. so she should be coming to an end soon. i give her acidophlis (sp?) mixed into her food.

chico2
January 20th, 2009, 09:03 AM
OMG meow,what was the reason given by this"cat-dentist"you not being able to visit her for 2 weeks??
I really do not know what the norm is,I've only had one cat who had ONE tooth pulled and he came home right away.
I believe your dentist-vet,kept her doped up for a while because of the pain she obviously must have had.
About the infection in her bone,I am sure even your regular vet could determine if there is one.

Also,try to be strong for Simba,your anger,sadness and guilt-feelings can tear you apart.
You are not the guilty party here,you love your little Simba,your devotion to her is very obvious,:pray:she will soon eat on her own.

sugarcatmom
January 20th, 2009, 11:43 AM
she isn't grooming herself b/c she has a cone on her head most of the time. when i am RIGHT THERE with her i take it off and she it so happy to sleep with it off that she curls up to sleep comfortably..

Can you try leaving the cone off for longer periods of time? Is there something she does that warrants keeping it on? I ask because the 3 times I was tube-feeding a cat, they never needed the cone on past the initial couple of days. If she isn't bothering the tube, perhaps she would be better off without the cone on?


Oh she is still on Baytril about 20 mg's per day .

Antibiotics can have a detrimental affect on a cat's appetite, so it might be a good idea to find out if she really needs to be on the Baytril still. The probiotics are a good idea.

meow
January 20th, 2009, 12:08 PM
Sugar: I take the cone off only when she is right there with me b/c she takes her back leg and tries to scratch where the tube is into her neck.

The BS reason the idiot gave me was "if she stops eating I won't know if it is b/c she is depressed that you left or if there is a medical reason."

I shouldn't say this out loud and I feel guilty for thinking it but I have a bad feeling this is not going to end well. I know I need to manifest her getting better. The cat sitter called and said she seems very unhappy compared to friday. he said nothing is "wrong" (no vomit, etc) but it's like she just wants to sleep and doesn't even care that he is there. I am sooo scared.

Sugar: where can i go to read up on some of the food things you have told me about?

Love4himies
January 20th, 2009, 12:59 PM
Baytril should NOT be given to cats with kidney problems, IMO. I gave Snowball (he was in kidney failure) Baytril and after a day on it it stopped eating and didn't eat again :sad: :cry:. His appetite was just fine before the Baytril. I think Dr. Lee has also stated that Baytril is hard on the kidneys, I will try to find it.

Love4himies
January 20th, 2009, 01:01 PM
Here it is:

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=52440&highlight=baytril

I will NEVER allow my cats to have baytril again.

meow
January 20th, 2009, 01:55 PM
Here it is:

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=52440&highlight=baytril

I will NEVER allow my cats to have baytril again.OMG! Did your cat ever eat again???????????????????????????? I am sooooooo sorry. Now I am scared to give it to her. I gave her clovomax with new food and she puked. we don't know if she puked from the food or the clovomax and i am afraid to make her puke again. i am also afraid to stop the meds and afraid to not give the meds. I feel like i am in hell.

Love4himies
January 20th, 2009, 02:00 PM
OMG! Did your cat ever eat again????????????????????????????

Snowball was in extreme kidney failure, possible kidney cancer, not like your kitty. I only wish I was a member on this forum when he was sick.

This drug has helped other kitties, but I have to post my experience with it as I don't think it would be fair not to. I get shivers everytime I hear about it.

Can you ask your vet if your kitty still needs to be on antibiotics, and if so perhaps change them?

Dr Lee
January 20th, 2009, 03:36 PM
I am sorry to hear that your kitty is having problems. Baytril can be used in cats however loss of appetite is a common side effect. Also it needs be used carefully and at a low dose to avoid risk of blindness and to be used judiciously in renal (kidney) diseases patients. For infection of the kidney, baytril is actually a good choice however if the patient is not tolerating it and there is another option, then perhaps we need to look for another antibiotic. Clavamox is good but some pets do vomit on it. Perhaps discuss the situation and your concerns with your veterinarian. Was a culture done that lets us know which antibiotics are the best in this case? If there are no other options, then talk to your veterinarian about a kidney supportive diet, the use of pepcid and perhaps an appetite stimulant. Unfortunately I cannot tell you to stop or continue the baytril however I hope that the information that I have provided might help you decide which is best for your pet and give you a basis to have a discussion with your vet for re-evaluating whether baytril is right for your pet. There are always options. I hope this helps. If you wish me to review labwork, just PM me and post the lab results on this thread. Best wishes. :pawprint:

meow
January 20th, 2009, 05:14 PM
Snowball was in extreme kidney failure, possible kidney cancer, not like your kitty. I only wish I was a member on this forum when he was sick.

This drug has helped other kitties, but I have to post my experience with it as I don't think it would be fair not to. I get shivers everytime I hear about it.

Can you ask your vet if your kitty still needs to be on antibiotics, and if so perhaps change them?
I am so sorry about your kitty! :grouphug: Yes my vet is back tomorrow and I will ask him if there is another antibiotic for her to take that won't make her puke. Thank you for your suggestion :thumbs up

meow
January 20th, 2009, 05:18 PM
I am sorry to hear that your kitty is having problems. Baytril can be used in cats however loss of appetite is a common side effect. Also it needs be used carefully and at a low dose to avoid risk of blindness and to be used judiciously in renal (kidney) diseases patients. For infection of the kidney, baytril is actually a good choice however if the patient is not tolerating it and there is another option, then perhaps we need to look for another antibiotic. Clavamox is good but some pets do vomit on it. Perhaps discuss the situation and your concerns with your veterinarian. Was a culture done that lets us know which antibiotics are the best in this case? If there are no other options, then talk to your veterinarian about a kidney supportive diet, the use of pepcid and perhaps an appetite stimulant. Unfortunately I cannot tell you to stop or continue the baytril however I hope that the information that I have provided might help you decide which is best for your pet and give you a basis to have a discussion with your vet for re-evaluating whether baytril is right for your pet. There are always options. I hope this helps. If you wish me to review labwork, just PM me and post the lab results on this thread. Best wishes. :pawprint: Thank you Dr Lee. She is on an apetite stimulant and it is not working. No culture was done that I know of to let us know which antibiotic to use. They are concerned that all will make her vomit so i thin they kept her on the baytril b/c she isn't vomiting it and she also is within the "safe" (is there such a thing) guidelines. The infection is for an infection in the bone of her mouth. My concern was that the baytril may be causing the not eating and the kidney problem.

meow
January 20th, 2009, 05:22 PM
Gross question I know but...What did the vomit consist of and what colour was it? mostly water? food? hairball? clear/yellow/white/brown?

Has she pooped recently? Alot of kidney cats that are constipated will throw up from the strain of trying to poop.

I know it's not always possible but if you see her heading for the litterbox, you could remove the cone long enough for her to do her business, then put it back on, it will give her a better frame of mind going to use the box & going outside the box hopefully won't become a habit cuz it's easier.



Did they do a urine culture? As SCM mentions the cloudyness is not normal. The normal range on lab tests for ph is 5.5 - 7 ideally it should be 6-6.5
With the ph being low & the cloudyness there could be infection or crystals or something else in there

What colour was it? That should be listed near appearance.

Have you set up to measure how much water she is drinking? - this will be important to your vet in determining if she should start fluid therapy.

The USG is alarmingly low - does any of the reports you have list the cat being on IV fluids other than during the actual surgery? During the 2 week stay was she on IV fluids? On the invoice/Drs notes it would be listed as LRS or Lactated Ringers Solution.

In CRF cats the USG will probably be between 1.008 and 1.012, my grrl's last USG test showed higher (better) than that even though she was at the time on twice weekly fluids. Once a cat goes on regular fluid therapy the USG is not as reliable a measure.

On the most recent blood test was there a T4 or Tetraiodothyronine T4 amount tested? If so what is the number?

Other causes of low USG include Hyperthyroid, Diabetes, Liver disease, kidney infections, the use of corticosteroids such as prednisone and prednisolone.
A T4 test looks like 2.6 which looks normal

meow
January 20th, 2009, 05:24 PM
Yup, that would be fine. The Chicken and Kitten varieties are also good. Just stay away from the fishy ones.



Not a good idea. For one, it has some icky ingredients like oats, wheat and plums (??plums?? seriously?). But the big issue with it is going to be in relation to Simba's urine ph, which is quite acidic. The Uretic formula has an acidifier added and your going to get into trouble with calcium oxalate crystals if the ph goes down anymore.

As for the rest of her urinalyis, the USG is alarmingly low, and the fact that her urine is cloudy is a concern. Did they analyze the sediment at all? There could be a number of things causing the cloudiness, from bacteria to crystals to blood etc.

I gotta run but maybe growler will chime in with some additional info for you.
I do not know about sediment. The vet wants to do an additional blood test thursday to check something with the kidneys. They did an ultrasound and everything looked normal on that

meow
January 20th, 2009, 05:28 PM
I was worried b/c pet sitter said simba looked lethargic. I came straight home took off her cone and petted her for a long time. She looked alert so i got out a string and wiggled it for her. She batted it with her paw several times and even bit it again. Then i got out a toy mouse and she actually pounced on it :D:p:cat: She tried to put the mouse in her mouth and I think she didn't like how it felt with now teeth and looked a little freaked. Then I hand fed her the original dry food she always ate. she ate 6 little pieces with her mouth. I feel so much better.


(I feel like i am on a roller coaster emotionally: anxious, scared, dread, relieved, happy). Did you all go thru that? My kitty has never been sick before so this is a first for me.

growler~GateKeeper
January 20th, 2009, 10:51 PM
Thank you. I have to go to work and can't look it up now but will post later. YES she was on IV for the 2 weeks he held her hostage! God only knows what else happened to her. Yes she has pooped and the poop looked normal considering the food change.

urine

appearance: cloudy
Color: yellow

Being on IV during the surgery is normal but for two weeks after is concerning. Putting a cat that doesn't need IV fluids for kidney disease or an emergency situation on fluids for an extended time period can adversely affect the health of the kidneys which is why vets try to hold off on giving kidney cats fluids as long as the cat is not dehydrated.

Good news on the poop & the urine colour being yellow :thumbs up

My new vet is helping me get a 2nd dentist opinion from a major university dental chairman. We are suspicious that she didn't even need this surgery at all.

I hope they are going to take new xrays of her mouth & not rely on the original ones. Hopefully this can be done without anaesethsia but using a light sedation (normally they will anaesethize the kitties cuz they don't sit still :D), Simba's been through so much already.

I feel soooooo guilty. I am her mom and I took her to that monster.

This was not your fault :grouphug:, lay the blame where it belongs.

The vet wants to do an additional blood test thursday to check something with the kidneys. They did an ultrasound and everything looked normal on that

I would have them re-run the full blood panel, urinanlysis and do a urine culture :2cents:

The BUN in normal range while the Creatinine is in the 3s and such a low USG is abit puzzling. The BUN generally rises with the Cre. I think there is something else going on :2cents:

What was the WBC white blood cell count on the pre-op and the post-op tests?

Did they say the size of the kidneys were even & normal?

Then I hand fed her the original dry food she always ate. she ate 6 little pieces with her mouth. I feel so much better.


(I feel like i am on a roller coaster emotionally: anxious, scared, dread, relieved, happy). Did you all go thru that? My kitty has never been sick before so this is a first for me.

Have you tried crushing some of the original dry food & sprinkling it on top of the canned food you are trying to get her to eat by mouth?

Yes I certainly have been through all the emotions on that particular roller coaster. :grouphug:

I know it's hard & you are trying but I truly believe a positive attitude/outlook really will help how Simba feels. Concentrate on the progress she has made, look how far she's come :2huggers: It's wonderful that she played & pounced a bit too :highfive:

sugarcatmom
January 20th, 2009, 11:02 PM
how did you learn all this?

My cats have had some very serious illnesses over the years. Aztec, who is still with me, developed diabetes 6 years ago, and it was a big wake-up call for me. Knowing that diabetes and diet are intricately related, I started researching feline nutrition - everything I could get my hands on. It was eye-opening to say the least. Unfortunately this info came too late to save Aztec's brother, Egypt, who I had to euthanize because of severe inflammatory bowel disease (which had possibly turned into cancer). I had fed both of them "diet" dry food for most of their lives and their poor health was directly related to this.


Sugar: where can i go to read up on some of the food things you have told me about?

Although lengthy, this link is the most readable: http://www.catinfo.org/
These are pretty technical but very thorough:
http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm
http://www.catinfo.org/zorans_article.pdf

And here is some stuff on the low-protein for kidney issues myth:
http://www.southpaws.com/news/99-2-nutrition-CF.htm
http://mousabilities.com/nutrition/crf/bovee_protein_RD.pdf


IShe looked alert so i got out a string and wiggled it for her. She batted it with her paw several times and even bit it again. Then i got out a toy mouse and she actually pounced on it :D:p:cat:

This is truly a great sign. A cat that feels super-horrible is not going to expend the energy required to bat a toy, believe me. They probably wouldn't even look at it. When Egypt was sick, the vet and I agreed that as long as he was interested in stuff like the birds outside or using his scratching post or swatting at a catnip mouse, we would fight for his life.

Then I hand fed her the original dry food she always ate. she ate 6 little pieces with her mouth. I feel so much better.

Fantastic! Keep at it. I can't remember, have you tried offering her a piece of boiled chicken? My cat finds this to be the ultimate treat (next to C.E.T. dental chews :rolleyes:).

(I feel like i am on a roller coaster emotionally: anxious, scared, dread, relieved, happy). Did you all go thru that?

Hell ya. I so totally understand what you're going through. There is a lot of anguish and helplessness when you so desperately want your loved one to get better. All I can say is that no matter what happens, being able to experience such a deep love with another living creature is a profound thing. :grouphug:

meow
January 21st, 2009, 08:46 AM
My cats have had some very serious illnesses over the years. Aztec, who is still with me, developed diabetes 6 years ago, and it was a big wake-up call for me. Knowing that diabetes and diet are intricately related, I started researching feline nutrition - everything I could get my hands on. It was eye-opening to say the least. Unfortunately this info came too late to save Aztec's brother, Egypt, who I had to euthanize because of severe inflammatory bowel disease (which had possibly turned into cancer). I had fed both of them "diet" dry food for most of their lives and their poor health was directly related to this.



Although lengthy, this link is the most readable: http://www.catinfo.org/
These are pretty technical but very thorough:
http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm
http://www.catinfo.org/zorans_article.pdf

And here is some stuff on the low-protein for kidney issues myth:
http://www.southpaws.com/news/99-2-nutrition-CF.htm
http://mousabilities.com/nutrition/crf/bovee_protein_RD.pdf




This is truly a great sign. A cat that feels super-horrible is not going to expend the energy required to bat a toy, believe me. They probably wouldn't even look at it. When Egypt was sick, the vet and I agreed that as long as he was interested in stuff like the birds outside or using his scratching post or swatting at a catnip mouse, we would fight for his life.



Fantastic! Keep at it. I can't remember, have you tried offering her a piece of boiled chicken? My cat finds this to be the ultimate treat (next to C.E.T. dental chews :rolleyes:).



Hell ya. I so totally understand what you're going through. There is a lot of anguish and helplessness when you so desperately want your loved one to get better. All I can say is that no matter what happens, being able to experience such a deep love with another living creature is a profound thing. :grouphug:
I am so sorry about Egypt. :rip: Egypt was a great lil friend.:lovestruck:
Thanks for the links. will read later

meow
January 21st, 2009, 08:51 AM
New vet just called and said Simba has pancreatitis. He has not idea how long she has had it or if it is reactionary. He said her case is not more complex b/c she has the renal thing and the pacreais thing which are treated in 2 different ways. He will take her off the baytril and try clondomycin (sp?). He said he has to consult with the ICU internist on what to do next because she might need another food change. He said if this is reactionary pancreatitis it could settle down but b/c she just started going to him he doesn't know which it is. Everything looked normal on an ultrasound.
I am trying to stay calm til he calls me back today. we are seeing him tomorrow and i know he is going to do another blood and urine test (and change the wrap on her feeding tube). Both docs know little about nutrition...they are good docs...but typlical docs in the nutrition realm. I am trying not to freak b/c there is nothing i can do. So this may explain why she won't eat too.

My poor kitty!:cat:

chico2
January 21st, 2009, 09:24 AM
Aww Meow,I am so sorry,I don't know anything about pancreatitis,but:pray:little Simba will recover,it seems to be one thing after the other.
I know you are worried sick so here is a :grouphug:for a good outcome for you and Simba:cat::fingerscr

Love4himies
January 21st, 2009, 10:02 AM
Oh poor kitty. You and her just need to get a break. It sounds like she is doing OK if she is wanting to play for a bit. :pray:

Love4himies
January 21st, 2009, 10:19 AM
Here is some info I found on pets.ca on pancreatitis:

http://www.pets.ca/encyclopedia/pancreatitis_cat.htm

meow
January 21st, 2009, 01:55 PM
Here is some info I found on pets.ca on pancreatitis:

http://www.pets.ca/encyclopedia/pancreatitis_cat.htm
Thank you for the link. She has all the symptoms. I was hospitalized myself in sept 08 and almost died. i am still recovering. now my simba.:sad: #$@*&% what is going on? I hope she can pull through this. No call back from the vet yet.

Love4himies
January 21st, 2009, 01:56 PM
Thank you for the link. She has all the symptoms. I was hospitalized myself in sept 08 and almost died. i am still recovering. now my simba.:sad: #$@*&% what is going on? I hope she can pull through this. No call back from the vet yet.

:grouphug::grouphug: and more :grouphug:.

chico2
January 21st, 2009, 04:03 PM
Since I know nothing about this disease,could it in any way be related to her experience staying 2 weeks at the hospital,having all her teeth pulled?

growler~GateKeeper
January 21st, 2009, 09:03 PM
New vet just called and said Simba has pancreatitis.

Yeah, that's what I thought.......:grouphug:

Now at least there is a full diagnosis & the Drs can begin appropriate treatments, it sounds like the pancreatitis is the main issue here and the kidney failure is a less urgent matter right now but will still be treated accordingly.

Some more links on Pancreatitis:

http://www.harpsie.com/pancreatitis.htm

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/pancreatitis__feline_.html

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/felinepancreatitis/

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Feline_Pancreatitis_Support/

Love4himies
January 22nd, 2009, 10:11 AM
It looks like i can't just write a letter and complain. It goes through a hearing prcoess.

http://www.ct.gov/dph/lib/dph/facility_licensing_and_investigations/pdf/consumer_guide.pdf

I can't take time off from work for any hearing. I did get the dental xrays via email today:thumbs up and am going to take them to a real dentist for review. then i will write my letter.

My cat's name is simba :cat:

That link is to the Dept of Health, not the CVMA :confused:

http://www.ctvet.org/ethics.php

I am sure with the help of your new vet and the ICU hospital you can lodge a complaint.

meow
January 22nd, 2009, 05:42 PM
Since I know nothing about this disease,could it in any way be related to her experience staying 2 weeks at the hospital,having all her teeth pulled?

absolutely. it can be brought on by stress and shock.

meow
January 22nd, 2009, 05:48 PM
Yeah, that's what I thought.......:grouphug:

Now at least there is a full diagnosis & the Drs can begin appropriate treatments, it sounds like the pancreatitis is the main issue here and the kidney failure is a less urgent matter right now but will still be treated accordingly.

Some more links on Pancreatitis:

http://www.harpsie.com/pancreatitis.htm

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/pancreatitis__feline_.html

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/felinepancreatitis/

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Feline_Pancreatitis_Support/

thanks for the links :)
so this means i should stop the acidopholius?
One study into humans with severe acute pancreatitis found that using probiotics more than doubled the risk of death. The same may not apply to cats but I would not take the risk. If you are using probiotics, therefore, I would speak urgently to your vet about stopping them. Medical Imaging reports on this study.

meow
January 22nd, 2009, 05:57 PM
That link is to the Dept of Health, not the CVMA :confused:

http://www.ctvet.org/ethics.php

I am sure with the help of your new vet and the ICU hospital you can lodge a complaint.
great now i have 2 places to complain to:thumbs up, in addition to the society for prevention of cruelty to animals (or whatever it is called). I can't complain YET. I am having the records reviewed by a real dental expert at a leading university. what he says or doesn't say will determine what i do

p.s. he is listed with them!

meow
January 22nd, 2009, 05:59 PM
That link is to the Dept of Health, not the CVMA :confused:

http://www.ctvet.org/ethics.php

I am sure with the help of your new vet and the ICU hospital you can lodge a complaint. the dept of health actually issues the vetrinary license in this state

sugarcatmom
January 22nd, 2009, 06:59 PM
How is Simba doing today? Anymore vomiting?

Has the vet been checking her blood glucose levels? Pancreatitis and diabetes frequently go hand-in-hand. Other than that, supportive care is really all you can do. Painkillers can help, maybe an anti-inflammatory, fluids if she needs them, or an anti-emetic if there is more vomiting. The food issue can be controversial, some say it should be low fat (which is true for dogs - maybe not so much with cats), but low carb is also important. It can be a tough issue to deal with, and you and Simba are in my thoughts.

meow
January 23rd, 2009, 06:02 AM
thanks everyone. she threw up a little this am. looked like bile. she wanted to eat last night but would only eat dru food. refuses every brand/flavor of canned food. so i let her eat the dry (she won't eat the dry if it is soaked in water). anyway then i was thinking: if she can't chew the dry she is swallowing it whole (little tiny nuggets) so how does she digest that if it isn't chewed? I was scared to feed her this am but i did it slowly. we finished 30 min ago and no vomit yet. usually she vomits immediately after eating so here is hoping.

chico2
January 23rd, 2009, 07:11 AM
meow,looking at her pic,she has such a sweet face and i makes me really sad for what you are going through:grouphug:
:fingerscr:goodvibes:for Simba and you..
I am certain,2 weeks in pain,in a strange place,not seeing you,made her incredibly stressed:sad:

Love4himies
January 23rd, 2009, 07:13 AM
the dept of health actually issues the vetrinary license in this state

Wow, you can go on this site and see all the doctors who have had disciplinary action against them.

meow
January 23rd, 2009, 08:09 PM
i was on the phone with the vet. he told me to give simba 1/2 tsp of??????????????????????????????????????

i can't remember if it was mylanta or pepsid ac. i bought mylanta but all of sudden i can't remember which one he said. omg i am losing my mind. i won't give her anything tonight b/c i can't remember which it was.

meow
January 23rd, 2009, 08:11 PM
meow,looking at her pic,she has such a sweet face and i makes me really sad for what you are going through:grouphug:
:fingerscr:goodvibes:for Simba and you..
I am certain,2 weeks in pain,in a strange place,not seeing you,made her incredibly stressed:sad:
i agree and having her teeth yanked out and now i think it wasn't even warranted. :mad:
thanks for saying my girl has a sweet face. i agree;)

sugarcatmom
January 23rd, 2009, 08:55 PM
i was on the phone with the vet. he told me to give simba 1/2 tsp of??????????????????????????????????????

i can't remember if it was mylanta or pepsid ac. i bought mylanta but all of sudden i can't remember which one he said. omg i am losing my mind. i won't give her anything tonight b/c i can't remember which it was.

If it's a liquid measurement he gave you, he likely meant Mylanta because I think Pepcid AC only comes in tablets. I do know that Pepcid AC (not "Complete" or "Maximum Strength") is frequently prescribed for cats with various digestive issues. Usual dose is 1/4 to 1/2 of a 10mg tablet.

meow
January 24th, 2009, 11:01 AM
If it's a liquid measurement he gave you, he likely meant Mylanta because I think Pepcid AC only comes in tablets. I do know that Pepcid AC (not "Complete" or "Maximum Strength") is frequently prescribed for cats with various digestive issues. Usual dose is 1/4 to 1/2 of a 10mg tablet.
thanks just stopped at vet to ask. he said to give her mylanta. the vet techs and i never heard of that before but that's what he prefers b/c it has phosporus binders in it. have you heard of this?

sugarcatmom
January 24th, 2009, 11:09 AM
thanks just stopped at vet to ask. he said to give her mylanta. the vet techs and i never heard of that before but that's what he prefers b/c it has phosporus binders in it. have you heard of this?

Yup, the Mylanta contains aluminum hydroxide, which is indeed a phosphorus binder. This is the regular strength one, right? Are you supposed to give it with food? Phosphorus binders only work if there is phosphorus (food) present to bind with.

meow
January 24th, 2009, 12:33 PM
Yup, the Mylanta contains aluminum hydroxide, which is indeed a phosphorus binder. This is the regular strength one, right? Are you supposed to give it with food? Phosphorus binders only work if there is phosphorus (food) present to bind with.
i am giving the food via etube and then the mylanta at the end and then flushing the tube. yesterday simba ate 6 pieces of dry food. today nothing :( yes regular strength, original formula (no flavor)

meow
January 24th, 2009, 03:09 PM
I wrote a letter of complaint about the "surgeon." any ideas on where to send it other than the licensing board, avma, aspca?

meow
January 24th, 2009, 03:10 PM
Yup, the Mylanta contains aluminum hydroxide, which is indeed a phosphorus binder. This is the regular strength one, right? Are you supposed to give it with food? Phosphorus binders only work if there is phosphorus (food) present to bind with.
then how come on the back it has a warning not to take it if you have kidney problems?

sugarcatmom
January 24th, 2009, 05:33 PM
then how come on the back it has a warning not to take it if you have kidney problems?

I think they usually say to consult with your doctor if you have kidney issues because it can take compromised kidneys longer to process, so the dose would likely be less. Same with Pepcid AC, but it is commonly used for CRF cats since stomach acid is a frequent problem. Here is some more info: http://www.felinecrf.org/treatments.htm#controlling_stomach_acid

meow
January 25th, 2009, 08:25 AM
I think they usually say to consult with your doctor if you have kidney issues because it can take compromised kidneys longer to process, so the dose would likely be less. Same with Pepcid AC, but it is commonly used for CRF cats since stomach acid is a frequent problem. Here is some more info: http://www.felinecrf.org/treatments.htm#controlling_stomach_acid

wow i didn't know about raising the bowl up. hard to do now b/c of collar on during day. but will experiment. thank you

meow
January 26th, 2009, 10:34 AM
OMG! I am at work balling my eyes out. This "surgeon" belongs to the academy of vet detistry NOT the american vetrinary dental college. what does this mean? he is misrepresenting himself to the public and to me. I am sitting here balling my eyes out. i wish i could go home. i feel sick. he was NOT
QUALIFIED to perform the surgery!

meow
January 27th, 2009, 02:06 PM
Simba was given cerenia for nausea. i read about ARF and pancreatitis. both cause simba's symptoms of lethargy. she sleeps about 23 hours a day. she is so freaked at the vet they want to try having a vet tech come to my house to change simba's wrap around her neck and give her SQ fluids. they are going to try and teach me how to do the SQ fluids.

My poor kitty! :cry::cry::cry::cry:

I have a subponea to get her medical records because he won't release them and I am having a medical malpractice attorney look into all of this. that doesn't help simba but i don't want anyone to go through this. i got some documentation from a high place that will help me with my complaint.:cry::cry::cat::cat:

growler~GateKeeper
January 27th, 2009, 11:42 PM
Subq's will help Simba to feel better, it may seem scary at first to do it yourself but it honestly is not that bad, it really becomes routine once you get used to it. :)

This is a good guide to the procedure: http://www.weirdstuffwemake.com/weird/stuff/pets/cats/sophia/catjuice.html

meow
January 28th, 2009, 02:02 PM
Subq's will help Simba to feel better, it may seem scary at first to do it yourself but it honestly is not that bad, it really becomes routine once you get used to it. :)

This is a good guide to the procedure: http://www.weirdstuffwemake.com/weird/stuff/pets/cats/sophia/catjuice.html

ok. vet said she is dehydrated but it boarderline. she gave her sub q's on monday and she has drank any water since! that's not good!

meow
January 31st, 2009, 01:13 PM
i subponea'd the old vet for her records. he had the nerve to write me and say he was rejecting the subponea! nope it aint legal. now his lawyer is calling my lawyer. weirdo.

sugarcatmom
January 31st, 2009, 05:28 PM
i subponea'd the old vet for her records. he had the nerve to write me and say he was rejecting the subponea! nope it aint legal. now his lawyer is calling my lawyer. weirdo.

That's crazy! This guy must really have something to hide. Good for you for putting up a fight.

How is Simba doing these days?

chico2
February 1st, 2009, 08:07 AM
Meow,I was under the impression from when I changed vets,they have to give you the records,they usually charge a smallish fee.
How is Simba doing,better I hope...poor little girl:cat:

meow
February 1st, 2009, 04:35 PM
Meow,I was under the impression from when I changed vets,they have to give you the records,they usually charge a smallish fee.
How is Simba doing,better I hope...poor little girl:cat:
By law it must be surrendered!

meow
February 1st, 2009, 04:39 PM
That's crazy! This guy must really have something to hide. Good for you for putting up a fight.

How is Simba doing these days?
exactly...he does have something to hide. :evil:
Simba was given a pain killer yesterday and she spazed out. I will never give it to her again. It was like she was on a halluicinogenin (sp?) she didn't sleep for 24 hours and neither did I. she is on pepcid ac now and zithromax for the pancreatitis. poor little girl. she ate 2 kibbles of food today.:cat:

Get this: I tried to dispute the charges with my credit card company. They said since services were performed I can't dispute. Even though there was misrepresentation and fraud? They told me to call the police.

meow
February 3rd, 2009, 03:41 PM
She has not vomited this week! :)

The SQ fluids are hard to do. I tried it 2x today. I got the needle into kitty but when the fluids started it pushed the needle out of kitty. i won't poke her anymore today! poor girl :sick:

She needs her neck wrapped changed tomorrow and her fluids done. I am just exhausted from stress, worry and anger. I am now sick myself....not good.

I sent some of you PMs about the old vet :loser::loser::loser::loser:

sugarcatmom
February 3rd, 2009, 05:06 PM
She has not vomited this week! :)

Yippeeeee! That's great news.

The SQ fluids are hard to do. I tried it 2x today. I got the needle into kitty but when the fluids started it pushed the needle out of kitty.

You'll probably need to hold the needle in place while the fluids are going to prevent that. Turning down the flow rate on the tubing valve might help a wee bit as well. Also, when I've given fluids I pull the needle back out slightly after inserting it so that it's only about half way in. That allows for a little space for the fluids to flow into rather than being right up against the skin or muscle. What size is the needle (as in the gauge number)? Vets usually hand out the big harpoons (18 gauge) but it might be more comfortable for Simba if you could find some Terumo Ultra Thin Wall 20g needles instead: http://members.verizon.net/~vze2r6qt/supplies/AboutNeedles.htm

growler~GateKeeper
February 4th, 2009, 12:49 AM
She has not vomited this week! :)

excellent :highfive:

The SQ fluids are hard to do. I tried it 2x today. I got the needle into kitty but when the fluids started it pushed the needle out of kitty. i won't poke her anymore today! poor girl :sick:

Make sure you are holding the "tent" of skin up while you are inserting the needle, then just keep holding the needle. The needle should be going in parallel to the spine not pointed downwards at all. You might try to make the front of the tent with your thumb & first finger & with the rest of that hand hold up the skin behind (toward her head) as well, this will give a little more room for the tip of the needle - this is similar to the clothes peg trick (http://www.felinecrf.org/giving_sub-qs_giving_set.htm#clothes_peg_trick).

I'm using the Terumo Ultra Thin Wall 20 gauge needles and Duffy hardly feels the needle going in anymore, the extra sharpness & smaller size of these will make the poke less noticable for both you and Simba. The speed of fluid flow is not that much slower than the 18g regular walled ones from the vet. The open tip of the needle should also be aimed upwards away from the body when inserted this will make the fluid flow better since it will not be butted up against the muscle underneath the skin.

Are you warming the fluids before giving them? This will make a difference in how she reacts to the fluids entering as well. If they are room temp or too cool she may flinch as they start which will cause the needle to come out. I run hot water in the bathroom sink, put the entire fluid bag & IV line inside an XL ziploc bag & place it in the sink for a few minutes. A cat's body temp is around 102*F so a warm liquid is far more easily received than a cool one. :D

meow
February 5th, 2009, 01:12 PM
Yippeeeee! That's great news.



You'll probably need to hold the needle in place while the fluids are going to prevent that. Turning down the flow rate on the tubing valve might help a wee bit as well. Also, when I've given fluids I pull the needle back out slightly after inserting it so that it's only about half way in. That allows for a little space for the fluids to flow into rather than being right up against the skin or muscle. What size is the needle (as in the gauge number)? Vets usually hand out the big harpoons (18 gauge) but it might be more comfortable for Simba if you could find some Terumo Ultra Thin Wall 20g needles instead: http://members.verizon.net/~vze2r6qt/supplies/AboutNeedles.htm they say 18x1 on them

meow
February 5th, 2009, 01:16 PM
excellent :highfive:



Make sure you are holding the "tent" of skin up while you are inserting the needle, then just keep holding the needle. The needle should be going in parallel to the spine not pointed downwards at all. You might try to make the front of the tent with your thumb & first finger & with the rest of that hand hold up the skin behind (toward her head) as well, this will give a little more room for the tip of the needle - this is similar to the clothes peg trick (http://www.felinecrf.org/giving_sub-qs_giving_set.htm#clothes_peg_trick).

I'm using the Terumo Ultra Thin Wall 20 gauge needles and Duffy hardly feels the needle going in anymore, the extra sharpness & smaller size of these will make the poke less noticable for both you and Simba. The speed of fluid flow is not that much slower than the 18g regular walled ones from the vet. The open tip of the needle should also be aimed upwards away from the body when inserted this will make the fluid flow better since it will not be butted up against the muscle underneath the skin.

Are you warming the fluids before giving them? This will make a difference in how she reacts to the fluids entering as well. If they are room temp or too cool she may flinch as they start which will cause the needle to come out. I run hot water in the bathroom sink, put the entire fluid bag & IV line inside an XL ziploc bag & place it in the sink for a few minutes. A cat's body temp is around 102*F so a warm liquid is far more easily received than a cool one. :D I can't hold her, hold the tent up, and squeeze the bag and release the valve all at once! :laughing: It is just me all alone doing it. Warming the fluids is a good idea. I didn't know that. Just called the vet. They said a 20 will make the fluids go in slower. oye vey. I am gonna try it though. she doesn't have much loose skin

sugarcatmom
February 5th, 2009, 01:27 PM
Just called the vet. They said a 20 will make the fluids go in slower.

The Terumo Ultra Thin Wall 20g syringes are not much slower than the fat 18g ones, because the walls of the barrel of the syringe are skinnier (there's a diagram in the link I gave you above). It really is worth finding some (may not be available from the vet).

Do you really have to squeeze the bag? If you hang it up high enough, say on the edge of a door or something, gravity should be enough to get the fluids moving.

rainbow
February 5th, 2009, 02:26 PM
According to this website you need a prescription for them in CT .....

http://www.thrivingpets.com/products/item-detail.php?formStockId=392N1

meow
February 5th, 2009, 02:42 PM
just picked up 20's at vet. they are pink not green. the drip is so slow on the bag that the icu vet said to squeeze the bag to make it go faster. the 18s hurt simba and she cried. simba has a big bandage around her neck so i can't get to the scruff. i have to try between the shoulder blades.

growler~GateKeeper
February 6th, 2009, 12:06 AM
I can't hold her, hold the tent up, and squeeze the bag and release the valve all at once! :laughing: It is just me all alone doing it. Warming the fluids is a good idea. I didn't know that. Just called the vet. They said a 20 will make the fluids go in slower. oye vey. I am gonna try it though. she doesn't have much loose skin

If you have her laying on a table/counter you should be able to hold her down with the hand holding up the tent (unless she's super squirmy), once you have the needle in you can just hold the needle hub & release the tent.

just picked up 20's at vet. they are pink not green. the drip is so slow on the bag that the icu vet said to squeeze the bag to make it go faster. the 18s hurt simba and she cried. simba has a big bandage around her neck so i can't get to the scruff. i have to try between the shoulder blades.

The colour of the hub of the needle does also depend on the length of the needle as well as the manufacturer.
Between the shoulder blades is fine, that's where Duffy prefers it.

Okay if you are squeezing the bag to force the fluids in faster then yes that will definately shove the needle out, and if the fluids are not warm that really won't be that comfy for Simba.

The drip is not that much slower with the Terumo Ultra Thin Wall 20g needles when you have the bag held up above your head & allow gravity to work, it usually takes around 5 mins for the amount of fluids Duffy receives depending on how fast the fluids are flowing.

Here is a pic of how I have my fluid bag:
48047
A regular hanger hooked on to the curtain rod, a couple of clothes pegs to hold the bag in place, I sit ontop of a regular height clothes dresser & it's high enough to give a good drip rate with gravity. There is about 2.5-3 feet of height between the drip chamber & where Duffy is sitting on my lap. I also am doing this alone but then Duffy just lays in my lap & I don't need to hold her :D

Here are a couple of videos with instructions:
MarVista Vet Fluid Therapy Set up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFLooN8N4aA)
MarVista Vet Administering Subq Fluids (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4Ta537YEOU&feature=user)

growler~GateKeeper
February 6th, 2009, 01:11 AM
I should also mention the used needles need to be properly disposed of - recapped & safely returned to the vets for disposal in their Sharps Container.

meow
February 6th, 2009, 05:02 AM
If you have her laying on a table/counter you should be able to hold her down with the hand holding up the tent (unless she's super squirmy), once you have the needle in you can just hold the needle hub & release the tent.



The colour of the hub of the needle does also depend on the length of the needle as well as the manufacturer.
Between the shoulder blades is fine, that's where Duffy prefers it.

Okay if you are squeezing the bag to force the fluids in faster then yes that will definately shove the needle out, and if the fluids are not warm that really won't be that comfy for Simba.

The drip is not that much slower with the Terumo Ultra Thin Wall 20g needles when you have the bag held up above your head & allow gravity to work, it usually takes around 5 mins for the amount of fluids Duffy receives depending on how fast the fluids are flowing.

Here is a pic of how I have my fluid bag:
48047
A regular hanger hooked on to the curtain rod, a couple of clothes pegs to hold the bag in place, I sit ontop of a regular height clothes dresser & it's high enough to give a good drip rate with gravity. There is about 2.5-3 feet of height between the drip chamber & where Duffy is sitting on my lap. I also am doing this alone but then Duffy just lays in my lap & I don't need to hold her :D

Here are a couple of videos with instructions:
MarVista Vet Fluid Therapy Set up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFLooN8N4aA)
MarVista Vet Administering Subq Fluids (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4Ta537YEOU&feature=user)
thank you for the help. I will watch the videos. Simba threw up this morning. I only fed her 25 ml's of food so it wasn't too much. :( I will try again in a couple hours. Want to give her tummy a chance to calm down. This was the first time she threw up all week. :( [I am home with bronchitis myself...stress...I have to find a way to deal with my anger and fear over all this better so I am not sick and missing work...and losing $]

meow
February 6th, 2009, 05:43 AM
I should also mention the used needles need to be properly disposed of - recapped & safely returned to the vets for disposal in their Sharps Container.
Yup, I put them in a jar and bring them to the vet when I go in.

meow
February 7th, 2009, 03:50 PM
Used the 20x1. much easier and didn't hurt simba as much at all. however, i have to hold the needle b/c if i let go for 1 second it pops out and water shoots all over. we were good til i let go of the needle.

ok on the bag it is numbered 1-9. but there are lines in between so it's like
1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3, 3.5 do you know what i mean? 1, line, 2, line, 3 line, 4, line...

ok from line 3 to line 2.5 (I am calling it that, it is a plain line with no number next to it) what is that? 50cc's. From one whole number to the next whole number is that 100cc's?

i didn't get the whole amount in her but don't want to poke her again.

growler~GateKeeper
February 7th, 2009, 11:57 PM
Holding the needle throughout the procedure is fine :)

Yup from #1 to #2 is 100 cc's or 100 mls

The whole bag is 1000mls, so 2.5 to 3 is 50 cc's or 50 mls each line is 50 mls

meow
February 8th, 2009, 08:51 AM
Holding the needle throughout the procedure is fine :)

Yup from #1 to #2 is 100 cc's or 100 mls

The whole bag is 1000mls, so 2.5 to 3 is 50 cc's or 50 mls each line is 50 mls
thanks growler

i want to thank everyone on this thread. I have been so sick and distraught I don't think I have properly thanked everyone for all their help. You are :angel:

sharisika
February 8th, 2009, 01:16 PM
Hello,
I did not read through all of the messages so this may be a repeat suggestion....I too have a cat who has a gum disease & has had several teeth pulled. The Vet told me he could still eat dry food. I guess they moisten it with their mouths. Anyway, if you would perfer to try & moisten it with a few drops of water...that would be good. She needs to eat & like I said, my cat still eats the Royal Canin & loves it. I wish you & your cat the best.
~Sharisika

chico2
February 8th, 2009, 03:56 PM
Meow,you'll never find a better bunch of animal-lovers,to top it off we even have a couple of catgurus who are very knowledgable in Growler and Sugarcatmom.
But we all just want Meow to get better.:fingerscr

meow
February 9th, 2009, 07:48 PM
I went to the old vet with 2 police officers to get simba's medical records. he refused to hand them over. he was served a subponea and refused to comply with that.

well, i have reported him for ethical violations to the licensing board with copies to every vet association he belongs to, the attorney general, dept of comsumer protection and a bunch of other places.

HE CAN EXPLAIN TO THEM WHY HE WON'T HAND OVER THE MEDICAL RECORDS.

Justice for Simba <--- my new mantra

I really hope karma is ^&%$# for him.

Jim Hall
February 9th, 2009, 07:51 PM
is a good mantra for sure

how she doing today?

meow
February 11th, 2009, 05:09 AM
is a good mantra for sure

how she doing today?
she looks a lil better

krdahmer
February 11th, 2009, 08:21 AM
Wow this is all crazy! That jerkass vet! And your poor kitty! I'm so glad that everyone has been helping here... we have so many knowledgable cat folks! :thumbs up And I really really hope you can get justice, and that Simba starts to eat on her own and recovers soon. :goodvibes: & :pray: for you both.:grouphug:

meow
February 11th, 2009, 06:13 PM
Wow this is all crazy! That jerkass vet! And your poor kitty! I'm so glad that everyone has been helping here... we have so many knowledgable cat folks! :thumbs up And I really really hope you can get justice, and that Simba starts to eat on her own and recovers soon. :goodvibes: & :pray: for you both.:grouphug:
Thanks and i completely agree of your assessment of the jerk.

I got simba's medical records today from the jerk-vet. He basically substantiated my case against him in her chart. It will only help me with my complaint against him.

He misreprested himself (online) in the state of NY also and was reported there too.

growler~GateKeeper
February 11th, 2009, 11:59 PM
good to hear you got the records :thumbs up I was wondering if they would mysteriously disappear :rolleyes:

meow
February 12th, 2009, 06:00 PM
good to hear you got the records :thumbs up I was wondering if they would mysteriously disappear :rolleyes: me too. they did in part

Jim Hall
February 12th, 2009, 06:21 PM
hows kitty doing?

meow
February 13th, 2009, 08:27 PM
hows kitty doing?
tired. had to be put under gas sedation at vet for procedure :sad: hope she feels better tomorrow

hazelrunpack
February 13th, 2009, 09:03 PM
What did she have done today, meow? :grouphug: I read through but somehow I missed it.

:goodvibes: for a better tomorrow!

Glad you were able to get the vet records. That guy is a real piece of work, trying to withhold them! :frustrated:

meow
February 14th, 2009, 12:13 PM
What did she have done today, meow? :grouphug: I read through but somehow I missed it.

:goodvibes: for a better tomorrow!

Glad you were able to get the vet records. That guy is a real piece of work, trying to withhold them! :frustrated:
she had to have the e-tube site cleaned and re-stitiched b/c the piece of work vet stitched it really stupid. after her horriific experience with the jerk it is no wonder trips to the vet are very stressful for simba. they had to sedate her or they would not have even been able to get to her neck.:sad: she looks extra tired today. i feel dejected b/c she was just starting to look like she was feeling better and today she doesn't look like she is feeling good.:sad: at what point do i say enough is enough? i think i will know when that time comes and it isn't here yet. i really want my girl to get better! :fingerscr

hazelrunpack
February 14th, 2009, 03:01 PM
:grouphug: That decision is always a hard one to face and hopefully it won't come to that just yet. Don't give up, yet...give her a day or so to recover from this last procedure.

chico2
February 14th, 2009, 03:53 PM
Meow,don't even think such sad thoughts,Simba will get through this,I am sure,it will take some time,but I am sure,with your love and care,she will be as good as new soon,sans teeth:sad:
Poor Simba,poor you:grouphug:

meow
February 14th, 2009, 04:13 PM
ok thank you for your encouragement. you are right. she was doing better last week. her neck wrap is pink with purple hearts on it! :) she is stylin'...a valentine's day cat! :D:cat:

my friend just told me simba is a hero. :) :) she is because maybe she chose this as her life path so i would expose this arrogant vet for what is isn't. simba is helping other animals. My kitty is a HERO (well heroine but i don't like that word):lovestruck:

chico2
February 14th, 2009, 04:21 PM
That sounds cute,of course she is a sweetie to begin with,there is no way you should give up on her,not unless something drastic happens.
The two of you have been through the worst already,I hope:fingerscr:grouphug:

meow
February 14th, 2009, 04:23 PM
That sounds cute,of course she is a sweetie to begin with,there is no way you should give up on her,not unless something drastic happens.
The two of you have been through the worst already,I hope:fingerscr:grouphug:
Good point Chico! :thumbs up I LOVE my girl! :lovestruck:

meow
February 15th, 2009, 04:25 PM
simba doesn't seem to be doing well yesterday or today. i tried to play with a string and a mouse toy today. not interested. she looks depressed. i feel soooo badly for her. oh did i tell you that PETA was interested in what happened to her?

chico2
February 15th, 2009, 04:38 PM
Why would PETA be interested???
Poor little Simba,this has been a real ordeal for her and to top it off her teeth are gone,but I am sure she will eventually get over it and get well:fingerscr
I know it must be very difficult for you too,but please do not blame yourself,just love little Simba as I know you do:lovestruck:
Is her mouth healed?
Hopefully there is no infections:fingerscr

maritimer
February 15th, 2009, 05:12 PM
I just finished reading Simba's story - what an awful adventure. I have two kitties myself - Simba & Nala. Nala has CRF, and we just started giving her fluids. We still aren't very good, but we have learned that if you can get the bag really high, the fluids flow really fast. We also warm the bag before hand.

When we first discovered Nala had CRF she was not eating at all. We chose not to go with a feeding tube. Instead, we forcefed Nala with a large syringe. We also coaxed her back to eating with tuna, and measured everything she ate. We continued to forcefeed her until she would eat at least 40 grams (8 tsps) of food on her own. We just kept trying food until we found something she liked. We started with really fishy, tuna-y food and branched out from there. I'd suggest that you consider a similar approach as it may help encourage her to eat by mouth.

We've been through every brand I can think of, and the only canned food Nala will consistently eat is Purina Proplan Chicken & Rice. It may not be the most nutritious or best quality, but at least she's eating on her own.
She was a dry food kitty before this, and prefers food with chunks and gravy. We've also just started her on Holistic Select dry - the Chicken Meal & Rice. And, she seems to like some of the Natural Balance and Merrick canned foods.

Simba is missing almost all the teeth on the right side of her mouth, and just recently lost a large molar. We are still trying to get her mouth to heal. She's on antibiotics and we flush the tooth pocket with salt water every day. She was also completely off dry but will eat a little of the Holistic Select.

We've also found that Nala goes nuts for Greenies. Simba also likes them, and we break them up for her since she can't break them herself.

I'm sure that someone will tell me that we are feeding them all the wrong food, but I'd rather have them voluntarily eating poor food than refusing the right food. Hang in there, and I'm sure you will get Simba through this.

meow
February 15th, 2009, 05:22 PM
Why would PETA be interested???

misdiagnosis. un-needed surgery. misrepresentation by vet performing surgery (in two different states I might add). refusing to let me visit her for 12 days while in vet hospital. BEYOND :loser:

14+kitties
February 15th, 2009, 05:24 PM
Keep up the good fight! Simba is not ready to let go. You shouldn't either!!

meow
February 15th, 2009, 05:27 PM
I just finished reading Simba's story - what an awful adventure. I have two kitties myself - Simba & Nala. Nala has CRF, and we just started giving her fluids. We still aren't very good, but we have learned that if you can get the bag really high, the fluids flow really fast. We also warm the bag before hand.

When we first discovered Nala had CRF she was not eating at all. We chose not to go with a feeding tube. Instead, we forcefed Nala with a large syringe. We also coaxed her back to eating with tuna, and measured everything she ate. We continued to forcefeed her until she would eat at least 40 grams (8 tsps) of food on her own. We just kept trying food until we found something she liked. We started with really fishy, tuna-y food and branched out from there. I'd suggest that you consider a similar approach as it may help encourage her to eat by mouth.

We've been through every brand I can think of, and the only canned food Nala will consistently eat is Purina Proplan Chicken & Rice. It may not be the most nutritious or best quality, but at least she's eating on her own.
She was a dry food kitty before this, and prefers food with chunks and gravy. We've also just started her on Holistic Select dry - the Chicken Meal & Rice. And, she seems to like some of the Natural Balance and Merrick canned foods.

Simba is missing almost all the teeth on the right side of her mouth, and just recently lost a large molar. We are still trying to get her mouth to heal. She's on antibiotics and we flush the tooth pocket with salt water every day. She was also completely off dry but will eat a little of the Holistic Select.

We've also found that Nala goes nuts for Greenies. Simba also likes them, and we break them up for her since she can't break them herself.

I'm sure that someone will tell me that we are feeding them all the wrong food, but I'd rather have them voluntarily eating poor food than refusing the right food. Hang in there, and I'm sure you will get Simba through this.

I have tried every brand and flavor under the sun. i am not going to force feed her. she has a feeding tube and i offer her food/treats/cat milk before feedings. sometimes she eats 4 pieces of dry kibble....not enough to take the feeding tube out. the only reason she is alive now is the feeding tube. i am sorry your two kitties (with the cutest names!) are hacving problems too.:cat:It sux! My simba is 2 steps forward, 1 step back. she has pancreatitis and what they think is ARF. she hates the SQ fluids. I switched to the 20 needle and it helped. she wanted to play for 5 min yesterday but no playing today and tons of sleeping. i just wonder if she will come around and if i am making her life worse by what i am doing. some days i feel she will improve and other days i don't know and feel horrible for her.:cry::pray:

meow
February 15th, 2009, 05:28 PM
Keep up the good fight! Simba is not ready to let go. You shouldn't either!!thank you. i keep telling her to fight and i am proud of her. some days i think she is fighting and other days i think she is giving up. that's when i question myself.:sad:

meow
February 15th, 2009, 05:31 PM
Is her mouth healed?
Hopefully there is no infections:fingerscr her mouth looks good and has healed quickly. the pancreatitis and ARF and respiratory problems are not improving.

maritimer
February 15th, 2009, 06:34 PM
I have tried every brand and flavor under the sun. i am not going to force feed her. she has a feeding tube and i offer her food/treats/cat milk before feedings. sometimes she eats 4 pieces of dry kibble....not enough to take the feeding tube out. the only reason she is alive now is the feeding tube. i am sorry your two kitties (with the cutest names!) are hacving problems too.:cat:It sux! My simba is 2 steps forward, 1 step back. she has pancreatitis and what they think is ARF. she hates the SQ fluids. I switched to the 20 needle and it helped. she wanted to play for 5 min yesterday but no playing today and tons of sleeping. i just wonder if she will come around and if i am making her life worse by what i am doing. some days i feel she will improve and other days i don't know and feel horrible for her.:cry::pray:

We chose forcefeeding as I wasn't comfortable with the risks of giving Nala a general anesthetic to put the tube in when she was only 5 pounds. We forcefed Nala 4 times a day at her worst and gave her tuna as often as she wanted. We also kept water dishes everywhere! It wasn't much, but it kept her going until her Azodyl (a digestive enzyme) started to help.

We had many up and down days with Nala, and we've had several bad weekends with Simba since she lost her molar (to the emergency vet twice with overnight stays on IV flulids). I wondered every day if we were doing the right thing. It took us two months to get Nala to eat consistently, and we still have days when she decides she no longer likes food she ate routinely. But, we did get there, and I'm sure we'll get Simba feeling better eventually as well. :fingerscr

meow
February 15th, 2009, 09:58 PM
We chose forcefeeding as I wasn't comfortable with the risks of giving Nala a general anesthetic to put the tube in when she was only 5 pounds. We forcefed Nala 4 times a day at her worst and gave her tuna as often as she wanted. We also kept water dishes everywhere! It wasn't much, but it kept her going until her Azodyl (a digestive enzyme) started to help.

We had many up and down days with Nala, and we've had several bad weekends with Simba since she lost her molar (to the emergency vet twice with overnight stays on IV flulids). I wondered every day if we were doing the right thing. It took us two months to get Nala to eat consistently, and we still have days when she decides she no longer likes food she ate routinely. But, we did get there, and I'm sure we'll get Simba feeling better eventually as well. :fingerscrYes I sure hope so! :fingerscr Forcefeeding would be traumatic for my Simba and for me.:pawprint: My Simba takes 2 steps forward and 1 back. I :pray: she gets through this!

meow
February 16th, 2009, 04:51 PM
Simba lapped up some Halo Stew (cat food) today. she didnt eat the checks but she lapped up the gravy! She had about 1 tbsp :thumbs up It is a start. She also had whiskas cat milk today...maybe 1-2 TBSP. It says on the box not to give it every day...I wonder why. I hope :pray: this is the start of interest in food!

Jim Hall
February 16th, 2009, 04:56 PM
excellent ! sounds like a good start

hazelrunpack
February 16th, 2009, 07:34 PM
That's good news. :fingerscr and :goodvibes: for a return of her appetite!

chico2
February 17th, 2009, 07:09 AM
Meow,every little step in the right direction is a milestone,Simba has not given up.
It's very difficult for a little cat to get through what she has,her wonderful little world was turned upside down..
I think with"checks"you mean chunks,my cats never eat chunks either,they only eat pate-type food.

ancientgirl
February 17th, 2009, 07:36 AM
Have you tried the Liv-a-littles from Halo? They are freeze dried treats, but they are pieces of chicken, beef, lamb. They are not soft, but they are crumbly when they bite into them. The chicken one is the easiest to break down. They aren't moist, but you can add a little bit of water to them to soften them up, or you can try giving it to her as they are broken down. Maybe she will like it. My gang practically attack me when I open that jar up.

It's real meat, just freeze dried.

meow
February 17th, 2009, 08:10 AM
Have you tried the Liv-a-littles from Halo? They are freeze dried treats, but they are pieces of chicken, beef, lamb. They are not soft, but they are crumbly when they bite into them. The chicken one is the easiest to break down. They aren't moist, but you can add a little bit of water to them to soften them up, or you can try giving it to her as they are broken down. Maybe she will like it. My gang practically attack me when I open that jar up.

It's real meat, just freeze dried.I have been giving her butler lean treats. she barely eats one piece. it is already moist and i have to break it up into smaller pieces.

Chico: what pate did yours eat?

she didn't want the stew today. only the milk.

ancientgirl
February 17th, 2009, 08:18 AM
I have been giving her butler lean treats. she barely eats one piece. it is already moist and i have to break it up into smaller pieces.

Chico: what pate did yours eat?

she didn't want the stew today. only the milk.


Fancy feast makes some flavors in a pate type consistency. Turkey & giblets I know for sure is one, ocean whitefish & tuna is another, and I think there is also a chicken. I think there is also a salmon one. They are the ones that have no wheat gluten, it's easy to spot in the back of the label. I put a picture below. But make sure when you read the label it doesn't have wheat gluten. When I do get some for my gang, now and then, I've noticed that the non-wheat gluten are the pate kinds.

The souffle type ones are also pretty good. They aren't pate like but look like a souffle. They're in the Elegant Medley's line.

meow
February 17th, 2009, 09:47 AM
Fancy feast makes some flavors in a pate type consistency. Turkey & giblets I know for sure is one, ocean whitefish & tuna is another, and I think there is also a chicken. I think there is also a salmon one. They are the ones that have no wheat gluten, it's easy to spot in the back of the label. I put a picture below. But make sure when you read the label it doesn't have wheat gluten. When I do get some for my gang, now and then, I've noticed that the non-wheat gluten are the pate kinds.

The souffle type ones are also pretty good. They aren't pate like but look like a souffle. They're in the Elegant Medley's line.
thx ag. i also ordered from wysong today. trying anything and everything

ancientgirl
February 17th, 2009, 10:07 AM
thx ag. i also ordered from wysong today. trying anything and everything

Hopefully something you try will be to her liking. Good luck with these.

chico2
February 17th, 2009, 11:50 AM
Meow,I think I told you before,my cats eat Wellness(no grain),their absolute favorite is the salmon/turkey,but they also like the Chicken,Turkey.
I think all of the Wellness cans are pate-type.

chico2
February 17th, 2009, 11:52 AM
AG,I don't think we have that kind of FF here...oh,I just noticed Meow is in the US..

ancientgirl
February 17th, 2009, 11:59 AM
AG,I don't think we have that kind of FF here...oh,I just noticed Meow is in the US..

Sorry Chico, I thought you gave your guys FF now and then too.

chico2
February 17th, 2009, 04:04 PM
I do,since they split a 12,5oz can of Wellness per day,I sometimes have to add a can of FF in the afternoon,if there is not enough of the Wellness can left,from the morning.
But that gourmet kind of FF I don't think we have here.

meow
February 18th, 2009, 07:11 PM
I do,since they split a 12,5oz can of Wellness per day,I sometimes have to add a can of FF in the afternoon,if there is not enough of the Wellness can left,from the morning.
But that gourmet kind of FF I don't think we have here.simba doesn't like wellness. she doesn't like anything. she wants her teeth back. i watch her try and eat and it is so hard for her. if she would just eat canned she would be fine but she won't eat it. i mix 1 small kitten wellness can in with her k/d food 1-2x per week and feed it thru the tube. when i feed her k/d only day after day she starts looking bad - her coat looks weird and unhealthy. i'll see if doing this makes her kidney results better or worse and adjust as needed. she refuses all wellness by mouth.

I wonder why one day she liked the halo stew and the next day wouldn't touch it.:shrug:

badger
February 18th, 2009, 07:30 PM
Have you tried plain chicken with white rice, simmered together until the rice is very soft?

chico2
February 19th, 2009, 07:35 AM
Meow,I don't think it really has to do with not liking the food so much as she's very uncomfortable with no teeth,I can imagine so would we be:sad:
Does she still have a raw sore throat??
It's not unusual for cats to gush over something one day and hate it the other.
I am just giving Wellness as an example,because mine like it,there are lots of good foods out there,but with Meow,I would feed her whatever she eats..
I fed my cats Fancy Feast for several years,just changed to Wellness after trying all kinds of foods and I am really happy they like it.
Fancy Feast smells really strong,maybe she would eat it???
But make sure it's not slices or chunks,pate type with a little water added,might be to her liking.
I am not advocating FF,but at this point she just has to eat,right:grouphug:

meow
February 19th, 2009, 07:56 AM
chico: I have tried FF. I have tried everything under the sun, moon and starts. :(

We have to go to the vet at 10am because her feeding tube got all twisted around and she is digging at it with her hind leg. she let out a sound that i couldn't tell if she was in pain or if it was "mom let me scratch this." then she hissed at me which she has never done. I hope he doesn't put her under gas sedation. she is very uncooperative at the vet (I would be too after the hell the bad vet put her thru) so they have to sedate her or she freaks with a capital F. i am going to ask if kitty valium would be safer. i dunno.:cry:

ancientgirl
February 19th, 2009, 08:35 AM
Maybe they can give her some Xanax. When I take Vlad to the vet I have to give him some about half an hour before we go.

Maybe as Chico said she's still in pain when she eats. :shrug:

meow
February 19th, 2009, 11:15 AM
Simba was put under gas sedation. I asked about kitty valium but the vet feels that has to be metabolised through the entire body (liver, kidneys, etc) vs gas is just the lungs. Neither options are good b/c of Simba's health and age. This is something she needs every 2 weeks. I worry about any kind of sedation every 2 weeks. Without the sedation they have to "man handle" her and it takes 3 people. The vet feels that is more stressful to Simba. She got her neck wrap and the feeding tube twirled around 180 degrees to the other side of the neck. Good thing is she didn't rip out the stitiches and the tube didn't come out...but I could not tell that by myself and we had to check her. He drew blood for kidney test and CBC (wow that's expensive) and also for the PLI. I will call the ICU vet to see if she wants to run the PLI before he sends it in. They gave her SQ fluids too...which he said might help the recovery from sedation.

If a vet could tell me she has an X% chance of improving I could make better decisions but they can't because alot of has to do with her body and how she recovers all they can say is she may recover and she may not. Do I give myself and her time period in my head like if she is not better in 6 months, put her to sleep? Or do I just wait until it is obvious she needs to go to sleep?
I battle with this. I want to do what is right for HER. This would be a miserable way for her to spend the rest of her life and also it is quite stressful on me. I can hang in there with her but I wonder how long I should for HER sake.

This morning she sat on my lap and purred very loudly and rubbed her face on me for about 30 min.:lovestruck:That was so nice!:lovestruck: Then other moments I don't think she is getting better at all. This is why I wanted blood drawn...the results may tell.:cat:
Thank you to everyone here:lovestruck:

ancientgirl
February 19th, 2009, 02:23 PM
I'm so sorry you are going through this with your little one. I truly hope there is some good news for her.

I understand your feelings. She can't be happy the way things are, but giving up on her isn't something you want to do either.

:pray: I wish there was something I could think of for her food wise. Maybe she just needs a little more time to adjust to her mouth with no teeth. :shrug:

Good luck to her. Please keep us posted.

growler~GateKeeper
February 20th, 2009, 12:19 AM
Have you tried Solid Gold Blended Tuna (http://www.solidgoldhealth.com/products/showproduct.php?id=10&code=240) canned? It's not ideal to get a cat hooked on only Tuna but if that's all she'll eat :shrug:

This is the only canned food my mums' healthly but very picky eater will go for, she also loves their Katz-n-Flocken Lamb (http://www.solidgoldhealth.com/products/showproduct.php?id=4&code=130) krunchies.

:goodvibes: for the test results

meow
February 20th, 2009, 06:32 AM
Have you tried Solid Gold Blended Tuna (http://www.solidgoldhealth.com/products/showproduct.php?id=10&code=240) canned? It's not ideal to get a cat hooked on only Tuna but if that's all she'll eat :shrug:

This is the only canned food my mums' healthly but very picky eater will go for, she also loves their Katz-n-Flocken Lamb (http://www.solidgoldhealth.com/products/showproduct.php?id=4&code=130) krunchies.

:goodvibes: for the test resultsi bought some the other day along with about 30 other varieties. will try it. she didnt want her cat milk this morning :sad: but she is purring on my lap :lovestruck:

meow
February 20th, 2009, 06:33 AM
I'm so sorry you are going through this with your little one. I truly hope there is some good news for her.

I understand your feelings. She can't be happy the way things are, but giving up on her isn't something you want to do either.

:pray: I wish there was something I could think of for her food wise. Maybe she just needs a little more time to adjust to her mouth with no teeth. :shrug:

Good luck to her. Please keep us posted.thank you for your support

chico2
February 20th, 2009, 07:48 AM
Looking at her beautiful little face in your Avatar,I feel so sorry for her.:sad:
Just a question,because I know nothing about feeding-tubes,could it not be possible that with the feeding-tube in place,she is just too uncomfortable to eat on her own.:confused:

Maybe with it gone,she would feel better,recover quicker:confused:
I know I would:D

I know you will do anything for your little girl,but is there any chance you could recover some of the huge costs from the original vet??

Jim Hall
February 20th, 2009, 08:21 AM
hi what an adventure eh?

Two things Going ti the vet she will get used to esp if it makes her feel better after
I would think that with all her problems, the fact that she does go up and interact with you means she is felling a little better

recovery is going to be long i mean like 6 months long with good days and bad days
but the fact that she has survivied all this means she is a fighter!!

meow
February 20th, 2009, 06:33 PM
Looking at her beautiful little face in your Avatar,I feel so sorry for her.:sad:
Just a question,because I know nothing about feeding-tubes,could it not be possible that with the feeding-tube in place,she is just too uncomfortable to eat on her own.:confused:

Maybe with it gone,she would feel better,recover quicker:confused:
I know I would:D

I know you will do anything for your little girl,but is there any chance you could recover some of the huge costs from the original vet??I am disputing my credit card charges with the cc company for the bad vet's charges because of misrepresentation, failure to complete the service, failure to give informed consent, etc.... I also filed in small claims court and complained to every applicable agency.
No the feeding tube doesn't affect her eating. I thought it did too but talked for 4 vets who all said no. it is uncomfortable (she wants to scratch) but it is not painful.

Someone suggested Royal Canin Baby Kibble... I don't know who it was but i bought it today simba ate 2 tbps. will she eat it ever again? who knows.

meow
February 20th, 2009, 06:35 PM
hi what an adventure eh?

Two things Going ti the vet she will get used to esp if it makes her feel better after
I would think that with all her problems, the fact that she does go up and interact with you means she is felling a little better

recovery is going to be long i mean like 6 months long with good days and bad days
but the fact that she has survivied all this means she is a fighter!!yup yup and i am so proud of her for that! :D she is like her mom...not takin no cr*p from anyone!:lovestruck:

Jim Hall
February 20th, 2009, 07:43 PM
are u confusing her with too many foods?

try this pivk the one she seems to like

get it warm and moist so it smellls good
make sure the sish is elvated or feed her from a spoon

if she takes 2 tbsp good ,try the same thing in 2 hrs with the same food


if her sense of smell is comprimised thats probably the problem cats are into smellly stufff lol well you know what i mean

meow
February 25th, 2009, 07:14 PM
Hi been really really busy. Simba looks a lil better in the am and pm. in between she sleeps. her PLI went from 6.3 to 8.9!!! We don't know why b/c she has been home and it is quiet and peaceful here. Vet is contacting Internal medicine vet to find out. :( Pooor kitty. :cat:
I love my kitty. I feel on a roller coaster. one day i am optimisitic and the next freaking out.

i got out some catnip and she responded to it and wanted to eat it! :D EAT! yes the cat who isn't eating wanted to eat. anyhoo she is now eating 1/2 teaspoon of babycat 3x per day. Obviously not enough to take the feeding tube out so she gets that too.

She has been urninating outside her box. I think part of it is she can't tell where she and the box is with the cone on her head. poor girl. she tried to get in the box but only puts her front 2 feet in. when the cone is off she can do it right.

i got her a toy that is a fishing pole with a feather on the end. when she is awake she likes to watch it and then grab it with her paw. she sleeps 95% of the day.

ancientgirl
February 25th, 2009, 07:21 PM
It sounds like she's at least more active and trying to get herself back to normal right? I mean, at least she WANTS to eat so that's a good sign.

What's PLI?

lindapalm
February 25th, 2009, 08:45 PM
I've had a couple of cats with their teeth removed. The antibiotics will give them diarrhea, and so can the can food in the beginning. If the cat won't eat his dry food soaked in water, I buy the smallest size dry food possible, the size of a tiny pill, called BG (before grain) chicken. The cat doesn't have to chew it because its so small he just swallows it. I have a cat with a partially closed throat that has no problem with it at all.

growler~GateKeeper
February 25th, 2009, 11:20 PM
In some cats cat nip can act as an appetite stimulant, try sprinkling a small pinch on her food - not too much cuz you don't want her to refuse it or get too dopey to eat.

I'm not sure what you mean by PLI?

chico2
February 26th, 2009, 06:48 AM
My cats eat fresh cat-nip leaves(in the summer)all the time,I called it their salad,I don't think it harms them.
Her gums and her throat are probably healed by now,:fingerscrthat the rest will follow:fingerscr
She is a tough little girl,with a mom that loves her very much:cat:

sugarcatmom
February 26th, 2009, 07:19 AM
I think the fact that Simba has an interest in cat nip and is interacting with her environment are hugely good signs. Hang in there meow! :grouphug:


What's PLI?

PLI stands for Pancreatic Lipase Immunoreactivity, which is a test used in trying to diagnose pancreatitis.

sconniel
February 26th, 2009, 10:05 AM
I have had to have my cat's teeth removed last month due to an auto immune thing they suspect has to do with plague from his teeth. The vet said his gums were mush. This has been almost 2 months now. He still has a few sores that aren't healing but the vet has given him an antibotic injection that lasts 2 weeks. Keeps me from having to give it to him orally.
The best thing so far has been the Depo injection. It does wonders for relieving the inflammation and increasing the appetite. He has gained 1 1/2 pounds and almost back to normal weight.
Sorry I didn't get through all the posts but if you haven't tried the Depo injection I would certainly ask about it. PS.. Hope you were able to find a vet that is 'cat sensitive'.

meow
February 26th, 2009, 04:01 PM
PLI is the pancreatitis test. hers got worse since being home. we do not know why.

thanks for the encouragement! i love my girl!

meow
February 28th, 2009, 02:11 PM
Simba just came from ICU hospital visit. She saw her internist. She had a bartonella test and some other blood test. She was given B12 injection and i have to give it to her 1x per week. She was given SAMe for anti-inflammation and I have to go pick up a compounded drug in a minute for something else. She had another ultrasound.

She has CRF and her pancreatitis is very bad. Dr wants to do an endoscopy on her this Thursday to get a biopsy of intestines. She thinks Simba has IBD but wants to make sure it isn't cancer or something else. I am scared to have the biopsy b/c she has to be put under sedation but this internist said she would make it quick and she wouldn't be under for a long time. I am still scared of it though but as an internist I understand her rationale. If needed she will put Simba in steroids to help her pancreas and intestines and then the dr hopes she will eat more. she is eating 1 teaspoon 3x a day...not enough to take out feeding tube.

ancientgirl
February 28th, 2009, 03:18 PM
I hope the tests come back negative for cancer. :pray:

Me and the gang are pulling for your girl. She's going to get better, I know she is. She sounds like a fighter.

chico2
February 28th, 2009, 03:41 PM
OMG Meow,I thought all these tests were over with,poor Simba,poor you:sad:
Her poor little body has lived through soo much,I am sure she can handle these tests.
I have no idea what IBD is,hope nothing life-threatening.
:pray:for good testresults..

meow
February 28th, 2009, 07:35 PM
OMG Meow,I thought all these tests were over with,poor Simba,poor you:sad:
Her poor little body has lived through soo much,I am sure she can handle these tests.
I have no idea what IBD is,hope nothing life-threatening.
:pray:for good testresults..

IBD= irritable bowel disease

they started her on B12 shots, ursodiol and denosyl

IF she has IBD they want to give her steroids to make the swelling of stomach, intestines, pancreas go down.

I pray she can fight through this endoscopy:pray::pray::pray:
It scares me

hazelrunpack
February 28th, 2009, 07:40 PM
Inflammatory Bowel Disease, chico. Basically an inflammation of the intestine. It can be life-threatening but can usually be controlled with proper treatment.

:goodvibes: for the test results, meow!! You two have been through so much :grouphug:

:fingerscr this will be the last hurdle and then Simba will start on the road to recovery! :goodvibes:

sugarcatmom
February 28th, 2009, 09:28 PM
I pray she can fight through this endoscopy:pray::pray::pray:
It scares me

I'm wondering if she really needs to have the endoscopy. Why can't they just put her on the steroids and see if it helps her? While I'm certainly not one to advocate the use of steroids willy-nilly, in this case it might be preferable to putting Simba through yet another procedure. And how would the results of the endoscopy change her treatment? What if they do determine that it's cancer, what then? What if they don't find anything? It might be a good idea to really think this through first.

meow
February 28th, 2009, 11:21 PM
I'm wondering if she really needs to have the endoscopy. Why can't they just put her on the steroids and see if it helps her? While I'm certainly not one to advocate the use of steroids willy-nilly, in this case it might be preferable to putting Simba through yet another procedure. And how would the results of the endoscopy change her treatment? What if they do determine that it's cancer, what then? What if they don't find anything? It might be a good idea to really think this through first.

I thought about that too. I think b/c if is parasite or bacteria then steroids won't help. steroids have side affects so i think they don't want to put her on em if she doesn't need em. If she had cancer, steroids wouldn't help. the internist seems concerned about having her on steroids if not needed. i will ask those questions.

sugarcatmom
March 1st, 2009, 02:10 AM
the internist seems concerned about having her on steroids if not needed.

Oh I totally agree, steroids are serious business, but the pancreatitis diagnosis alone might be a valid enough reason for steroids.

I know she was on painkillers for her mouth issues, but is she on painkillers for the pancreatitis? That can be one of the most important aspects of p-titis treatment. Buprenex or a Fentanyl pain patch are the way to go.

Is there a reason they suspect bowel involvement? Have they mentioned something called Triaditis? That's when there is concurrent inflammation in the pancreas, the liver and the intestines. Steroids can be very helpful in that situation. And even if cancer is the issue, steroids are often prescribed for palliative care to make the patient more comfortable. Believe me, I'm one of the biggest anti-steroid people around, but I also know that they can be a life-saver.

I'm just worried for you and Simba. :grouphug:

chico2
March 1st, 2009, 07:32 AM
meow,I'll probably get in trouble for saying this,but all these procedures,at a great cost,I am sure,to Simba and your wallet,are starting to worry me too.
I know most of us at one time just accept whatever procedure the vets want to try,after all they are the experts,but please,before any more invasive procedures talk it through with you vet,if meds could possibly help.
I would try anything,even steroids,to avoid another procedure,give Simba a chance to recover her strenght.:fingerscr
I know you are worried sick,as would I be,just be sure you know all the facts before any more procedures,ok:grouphug::grouphug:

meow
March 1st, 2009, 02:31 PM
Oh I totally agree, steroids are serious business, but the pancreatitis diagnosis alone might be a valid enough reason for steroids.

I know she was on painkillers for her mouth issues, but is she on painkillers for the pancreatitis? That can be one of the most important aspects of p-titis treatment. Buprenex or a Fentanyl pain patch are the way to go.

Is there a reason they suspect bowel involvement? Have they mentioned something called Triaditis? That's when there is concurrent inflammation in the pancreas, the liver and the intestines. Steroids can be very helpful in that situation. And even if cancer is the issue, steroids are often prescribed for palliative care to make the patient more comfortable. Believe me, I'm one of the biggest anti-steroid people around, but I also know that they can be a life-saver.

I'm just worried for you and Simba. :grouphug:they didn't use that name triaditis but i am wondering if that is what she suspects b/c she put her on medicine for the liver already. i emailed the vet to ask her how doing a biopsy would make treatment different than just giving her steroids. she answered and said she would get back to me soon. when she does i will post what she says.

meow
March 1st, 2009, 02:32 PM
meow,I'll probably get in trouble for saying this,but all these procedures,at a great cost,I am sure,to Simba and your wallet,are starting to worry me too.
I know most of us at one time just accept whatever procedure the vets want to try,after all they are the experts,but please,before any more invasive procedures talk it through with you vet,if meds could possibly help.
I would try anything,even steroids,to avoid another procedure,give Simba a chance to recover her strenght.:fingerscr
I know you are worried sick,as would I be,just be sure you know all the facts before any more procedures,ok:grouphug::grouphug:
yup i agree. the vet is good and she will explain it to me. i will let you know what she says.

BTW: I filed in small claims court against the JERK vet who did all this to Simba: for all costs paid to him, subsequent care and petsitting, intentional infliction of emotional stress and loss of intrinsic value (simba). we will see what happens. He is an arrogant :censored: so we will see

sugarcatmom
March 1st, 2009, 02:42 PM
BTW: I filed in small claims court against the JERK vet who did all this to Simba: for all costs paid to him, subsequent care and petsitting, intentional infliction of emotional stress and loss of intrinsic value (simba). we will see what happens. He is an arrogant :censored: so we will see

You go girl!!! Give that loser both barrels. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-violent053.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

ancientgirl
March 1st, 2009, 02:45 PM
I hope you at least get some justice for Simba. At the very least you have filed a legal document against him, and I can only hope his practice and bank account suffers because of this.

meow
March 1st, 2009, 03:27 PM
I hope you at least get some justice for Simba. At the very least you have filed a legal document against him, and I can only hope his practice and bank account suffers because of this.
ME TOO AND HOPEFULLY DISCIPLINARY ACTION BY VET BOARD....reported him there too

meow
March 1st, 2009, 03:28 PM
You go girl!!! Give that loser both barrels. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-violent053.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)
lol u crack me up:laughing:

ancientgirl
March 1st, 2009, 03:54 PM
ME TOO AND HOPEFULLY DISCIPLINARY ACTION BY VET BOARD....reported him there too

I'm glad you did that. So many times people just let things go. This guy needs to be kicked in the butt, and good!

meow
March 2nd, 2009, 04:18 PM
Here is the vet's reply to the endoscopy:
"The endoscopic biopsies are the only way to diagnose IBD. The question is: is there inflammation, and if so, what cell type and how severe. Many people elect empiric therapy but I cannot recommend that of course as it isn't medically sound. The choice however is always up to you and we will support you in any decision you make. We can speak more about it when the bloods are in. "
-----------
Ok they have to sedate simba anyway to change the feeding tube wrap on her neck so while she is out they thought that they could do this so we would know exactly what we are dealing with. for example if it is bacterial, she needs antibiotics not steroids. if it is IBD she needs steroids not antibiotics. Logically it seems like the righ tthing to do it.
It makes me :sad: for simba but then i was thinking if we figure this out and get her the right meds this may make her well :thumbs up

my kitty :lovestruck::angel::lovestruck::angel::lovestruck: :angel::pray::pray:

ancientgirl
March 2nd, 2009, 04:23 PM
It makes me :sad: for simba but then i was thinking if we figure this out and get her the right meds this may make her well :thumbs up

my kitty :lovestruck::angel::lovestruck::angel::lovestruck: :angel::pray::pray:

I feel terrible for her as well, but like you said, if this is what it takes for them to figure out what's wrong with her, then that's good. Once they figure out what meds she needs hopefully she'll get stronger and get to the point where she no longer needs that feeding tube.:goodvibes::goodvibes:

chico2
March 2nd, 2009, 04:28 PM
Meow,of course you are right and I:pray:you get some real answers,to start her on the way to recovery...
My hubby always says,the vet sees me coming and has his new Mercedes on hold:laughing:

I am also glad you reported this other vet,hopefully he'll have to reimburse you and there will be some justice for little Simba:cat::lovestruck:

sugarcatmom
March 2nd, 2009, 05:59 PM
What food is Simba being tube-fed these days? Does she any diarrhea or constipation?

meow
March 2nd, 2009, 07:38 PM
What food is Simba being tube-fed these days? Does she any diarrhea or constipation?
k/d or royal canin renal. once in awhile i mix in wellness. no diarreah or constipation.
simba would throw up before her surgery, this is why the vet thinks she had IBD and then the insult was done to her pancreas with the surgery and :censored: keeping her there for 12 days without me seeing her.:censored:

Her coat actually looks good and is soft. We also found out she has CRF and not ARF like we originally hoped. She has scar tissue on left kidney from the :censored: keeping her under for 3 hours. :mad: