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Lack of Scientific Backing for Raw Diets

LittleMonster
December 9th, 2008, 08:18 PM
Hello everyone,

I am relatively new to this board, and am interested in the raw diet. My dog has gotten an occasional raw pieces of food as treats, but never as a meal.

I wanted to do some research, but sadly I have found no scientific facts that back up any raw diets. All I was able to find was the same old arguments both for and against raw.

So, can anyone point me in direction of some research that is done on raw diets? For example, it would be nice to know exactly how "balanced" a varied raw diet is, or, what the true risk of pathogens are in irradiated raw food?

pitgrrl
December 9th, 2008, 08:38 PM
Here's the trouble, who funds studies? Primarily dog food companies, which don't stand to make any money off looking at raw diets, so unfortunately, you may no find what you're looking for.

There are vets who have seen, through their own experience, the benefits of raw and/or homemade diets (and a few who have written books), and there is a ton of anecdotal evidence, but at a certain point it comes down to taking the plunge and seeing for yourself or not.

I think it would be amazing if there was long term study of raw fed dogs, but who's going to cough up the cash?:shrug:

kathryn
December 9th, 2008, 08:45 PM
I only feed raw as a treat... but just sort of common sense looking at the whole raw thing is that it's meat... and animals eat meat... so I would imagine that works good?

I personally feel a raw diet should not just consist of meat. Added vitamins and minerals with fruits and veggies are what I feel is appropriate for a cat or dog to eat.

I like Aunt Jeni's raw foods
http://www.auntjeni.com/


The risks of nasty germs from raw stuff is low when you buy the good stuff. Aunt Jeni's is all regulated and stuff. I trust them to give me a high quality product. You are a better chance of poisoning your pet with grocery store kibble then with raw (in my opinion and observances).

i work at a pet supply store and we sell raw and all kinds of natural kibbles and canned foods. Alot of people swear by raw. My boss/owner of the store thinks it's all good stuff too. He's been in the healthy pet food business for over 40 years so I'm pretty sure whatever he says is right :o

pitgrrl
December 9th, 2008, 08:54 PM
I personally feel a raw diet should not just consist of meat. Added vitamins and minerals with fruits and veggies are what I feel is appropriate for a cat or dog to eat.


Just so it's clear, a diet consisting of just meat would in no way be appropriate to feed. Any raw diet should consist of a variety of muscle meats, organs, and bone in proper ratios. Veggies, fruits, etc. are debatable, but it's important to that those basics be included whether one is feeding prey model raw, a BARF diet, pre-made raw, etc.

clm
December 9th, 2008, 09:18 PM
I wonder if some of the vetrinary colleges have done studies on raw diets. That might be worth looking into.

Cindy

woof99
December 9th, 2008, 09:49 PM
I always say that not all dogs are created equal, some dogs do amazing on raw, some do better on good quality canned food, some do better on good quality kibble... Just like people dogs have different backgrounds, some were domesticated 10,000 years ago, some only a few 100 years and there will be a difference in how they respond to the different type of diets.
I work in a clinic as a tech and dogs are my life.
I have done raw, kibble, canned... and have found that it really depends on the individual pet and client.
I currently have a 17 year old cat, a 14.5 year old GSD mix and a 12 year old Border Collie. Everyone is doing well and are very healthy.

I think the tough issue as to is one better than another is that dogs will live to be around the same age when fed quality kibble vs raw.
If dogs fed raw lived significantly longer, then vets would pay attention, but they do not. They do live longer than pets on Kibbles and Bit and Old Roy but people that feed those diets do not really care I think.

My pets are all on Medi-Cal/Royal Canin diets.
I get comments daily at local dog park on how amazing my dogs look, their coat quality, their teeth, their activity level...
I switched to raw several years ago when I had a cat block on Hill's diet several times. However one of my dogs refused to touch it, which is weird I know!! So I researched through fellow vet clinic staff members, basically found out what the oldest pets seemed to be eating and Medi-Cal pets seem to live much longer than others, the vets believe it is because of the high levels of antioxydants that help to prevent cancer, meat meals that have the highest bioavailability and grains are ground to 0.5mm diameter which increases the digestibility of grains to upwards of 80%.

I know many of you are medi-Cal haters but after visiting their new plant in Guelph, seeing the quality control that goes into having every bag made and most importantly seeing how amazing my lovely pets are doing I am convinced.

That being said, some dogs/cats do not do as well on Medi-Cal and seem to do better on other diets... I would love for the raw food makers to have studies done, I know we would love to have more info for clients.

sugarcatmom
December 10th, 2008, 07:30 AM
I wanted to do some research, but sadly I have found no scientific facts that back up any raw diets.

How about the ultimate scientific fact, which is that cats and dogs survived and thrived eating raw meat over millions of years. There are no Hibachis in nature.

Love4himies
December 10th, 2008, 07:47 AM
How about the ultimate scientific fact, which is that cats and dogs survived and thrived eating raw meat over millions of years. There are no Hibachis in nature.

:thumbs up

I know cats are made to have a raw meat diet, just have to look at the fact that they need taurine which is destroyed when cooking meat. Look at their digestive systems, very short and slightly acidic to keep bacterial growth to a minimum, their teeth are made for chewing bones and pulling meat. Also, they are very inefficient drinkers and are meant to get their water with their meat, cooking evaporates the water.

AmericanBullMom
December 10th, 2008, 07:47 AM
How about the ultimate scientific fact, which is that cats and dogs survived and thrived eating raw meat over millions of years. There are no Hibachis in nature.

Lmao, I always say the same thing when people ask me "Well what about bacteria?"
"You dont see Wolves cooking their meat over a camp fire do you?"

Welcome to the forum!

Dogs and cats are MEANT to be omnivores. Wolves eat the stomach contents of the prey they kill, and so they do get some plant material.

When doing Raw, it might be best to start with one of the pre-made raw foods, and read all the ingredients in it. Get a feel for how much your dog needs to stay a healthy weight. Going raw isnt A LOT of work, but you do have to devote the time to make sure your dogs is getting the variety of meat that it needs.

Vets want you to buy dry kibble, they make money from it. My vet told me to put Patrón on SCIENCE DIET! :eek::wall::yell:

Hope you find all that you're looking for!

kathryn
December 10th, 2008, 07:53 AM
Just so it's clear, a diet consisting of just meat would in no way be appropriate to feed. Any raw diet should consist of a variety of muscle meats, organs, and bone in proper ratios. Veggies, fruits, etc. are debatable, but it's important to that those basics be included whether one is feeding prey model raw, a BARF diet, pre-made raw, etc.

Some people actually don't know this! When people come into where I work and ask about raw they don't understand it one bit. They think they just go to the supermarket and buy a steak and throw it to the dog :laughing:

Jim Hall
December 10th, 2008, 08:03 AM
Some people actually don't know this! When people come into where I work and ask about raw they don't understand it one bit. They think they just go to the supermarket and buy a steak and throw it to the dog
__________________
yumm

Blackdog22
December 10th, 2008, 08:04 AM
I think raw is great as long as you research heavily and take serious precautions in preperation.
My pup was weaned onto raw and as far as I know many of his siblings are still thriving on it. My boy eats Orijen, I find it to be the closest dry food to raw on the market....that is of course my personal opinion and I cannot back it up with fact (well I probably can, but Im lazy :p )

I chose not to feed raw due to a bad experience with it.
Years ago I attempted to feed my female raw. Everything was fine for the first little while until one fateful afternoon. I put down her food as usual and walked away, for some reason I lost track of time and didnt return to the dish for 20 minutes. As a rule I would throw away any food not eaten within 10 minutes. Anyway, I was too late. The food had been sitting out for too long (only by a few minutes too!) and my young dog had eaten it.

Later that night she began having symptoms that seemed to mimic parvovirus though they were mild(Im talking about the more passive symptoms, like lethargia and deppression), no need to rush to the vet.

The next morning the situation went from bad to critical, we rushed her to the vet. She was so very weak......on the way to the clinic she urinated on herself, too weak to even care. She was vomitting at a horrible rate and had projectile diarrhea, laced with blood. The vet ran tests for parvo as soon as we got to the clinic and it was soon determind parvo was not the cause. To make a long story short, she had a Gastric Enteritis. The exact cause is not known however it is speculated that it was indeed caused by the food.

She is 100% fine now and was back to herself after a less then a week of being home but while it was happening, it was the most horrific thing that has ever happened to me. I thought she was a goner for sure. I cannot imagine being responsible for my dogs death because of negligence!


That being said, it was not the BARF's fault, it was entirely my own.
But perhaps if you are a forgetful person like myself, a premium quality kibble with supplements would suit you best.

I just thought I would share my experience, in case other like me(forgetful folk) were considering BARF. I think a persons realistic capabilities are often overlooked when dealing with the wellbeing of loved ones.

Love4himies
December 10th, 2008, 08:16 AM
That being said, it was not the BARF's fault, it was entirely my own.
But perhaps if you are a forgetful person like myself, a premium quality kibble with supplements would suit you best.



There is no known cause of Gastro Enteritis, could be virus, bacterial, or parasite so don't be too hard on yourself, may not have had anything to do with the raw diet and how long it was left out for. You did do the right thing to take your dog to the vet right away.

luckypenny
December 10th, 2008, 08:46 AM
Because of lack of scientific info, I did extensively read up on it before I decided to switch my dogs over to raw. And that included all the pros and cons.

What was the deciding factor that convinced me? It wasn't any of the research I did on my own; it was an experience. One of our dogs never did well on kibble, whether it was vet prescribed or one of the high quality brands. We tried just about everything but he always had diarrhea, vomiting and could never put on much needed weight. After many tests, we even tried medications which would only work while he was taking them and the diarrhea/vomiting returned shortly afterwords. Then, two summers ago, we went camping for three weeks. He did his own hunting :o. For the first time in almost a year, perfectly formed stools, no diarrhea/vomiting, and he finally started to gain weight.

All three have now been fed raw for 1 1/2 years and have had no health issues since.

pitgrrl
December 10th, 2008, 10:46 AM
I think the tough issue as to is one better than another is that dogs will live to be around the same age when fed quality kibble vs raw.
If dogs fed raw lived significantly longer, then vets would pay attention, but they do not.

... I would love for the raw food makers to have studies done, I know we would love to have more info for clients.

I think framing the question as 'what diet will make a dog live longest' is kind of flawed. I don't think a raw diet is a magical anti-aging formula which will make my dogs live to be 110, nor do I think feeding kibble, of any kind is likely to result in my dogs dieing at age 4. Clearly dogs are adaptable creatures and can survive a long time on diets as bad as Ol' Roy.

The issue, to me and I'd guess a lot of people who have chosen to go with raw or homecooked diets, is not my dogs surviving, it's a question of thriving. They may very well die at a totally average age, their less than stellar genetic material will likely have an effect on how long their lives are, but for however long they're around I want them to be in the best shape possible.

Because of lack of scientific info, I did extensively read up on it before I decided to switch my dogs over to raw. And that included all the pros and cons.



I think this brings up an important point. Feeding raw is not free of risks, but then neither is feeding a kibble diet. I think it comes down to an individual weighing of risk vs. benefit. In cases like LP described, and my own, feeding kibble means having an unwell dog most of the time, so perhaps the choice is easier than for a dog who genuinely does quite well of a decent quality kibble.

TulipRoxy
December 10th, 2008, 02:02 PM
I wonder if some of the vetrinary colleges have done studies on raw diets. That might be worth looking into.

Cindy

Unfortunately I doubt any vet college would ever do a study on raw as almost all of them are funded by pet food companies. The only study I have ever seen on raw is one that proved that dogs fed raw shed more bacteria in their feces than those fed kibble.

I would love to see a study done on raw feeding, it would be nice to have some scientific evidence to back up belief with.

The bottom line is people will do what works for them. My pets are all looking better than they ever have, but time will tell I guess. There are some kibble diets out there that dogs do well on. And provided you brush their teeth they'll probably live a long time. To each his own.

TulipRoxy
December 10th, 2008, 02:06 PM
Some people actually don't know this! When people come into where I work and ask about raw they don't understand it one bit. They think they just go to the supermarket and buy a steak and throw it to the dog
__________________
yumm

That's scary! I've actually seen recipes online that fail to mention that the dog needs to get bones or a calcium supplement. What if someone followed that? Then everyone else who feeds raw or homemade gets a bad rap because one person didn't research properly! There is so much misinformation out there, no wonder vets are so against raw!

rhartjr
December 10th, 2008, 04:24 PM
There is so much misinformation out there, no wonder vets are so against raw!

Yeah, I've recently been having an e-mail discussion with my vet on nutrition and diets lately. She's a great vet but is vehemently opposed to raw.

Love4himies
December 10th, 2008, 04:52 PM
That's scary! I've actually seen recipes online that fail to mention that the dog needs to get bones or a calcium supplement. What if someone followed that? Then everyone else who feeds raw or homemade gets a bad rap because one person didn't research properly! There is so much misinformation out there, no wonder vets are so against raw!

You are right about that, plus some people don't practise good hygine when dealing with raw meat. I was talking to a vet that said for some dogs, too much fat can cause pancreatitis very easily, so if you don't have the correct proportions, it can be dangerous to your dog.

You know what would be nice, is if vets, instead of simply stating raw shouldn't be fed, should do up pamphlets of proper recipes and hygene to train people properly.

woof99
December 10th, 2008, 06:34 PM
Medi-Cal used to offer homemade recipes and even gave away to clinics free of charge vitamin and mineral premix... for those pets that didn't do well on their diet. However after the melamine recall, they stopped offering it. They had clients that were making up their own recipes using the premix, then pets were coming in sufering from hypercalcemia, which is quite dangerous... bottom line people weren't following the recipes and so Medi-Cal discontinued it. It sucked, they had been offering it for free for over 20 years then because of a few stupid idiots that didn't follow the recipe, they had to discontinue it. I imagine they were told to do so by their lawyer.

In the meantime there are veterinarian nutritionists that people can get a consult with and for a charge they will make up a homemade recipe based on the ideal needs of the individual pet. This is were we send clients that want to do homemade. petdiets.com I believe is the site. There is also Dr Beltran in Ottawa at the Blair Animal hospital. I have never met him but clients drive 2 hours from MOntreal to see him and they adore him, he is a holistic vet.

TulipRoxy
December 10th, 2008, 06:57 PM
You are right about that, plus some people don't practise good hygine when dealing with raw meat. I was talking to a vet that said for some dogs, too much fat can cause pancreatitis very easily, so if you don't have the correct proportions, it can be dangerous to your dog.

You know what would be nice, is if vets, instead of simply stating raw shouldn't be fed, should do up pamphlets of proper recipes and hygene to train people properly.

Yeah that would be nice. But vet's are so poorly educated on it to begin with that they wouldn't promote it. Besides it doesn't benefit them in any way monetarily. Even if a vet is pro-raw, which are few and far between, time is money, and spending time with a client educating them about feeding a diet when he won't see any of the profits is pointless. Just to demonstrate the power of pet food companies we recently had a speaker from Purina come in to talk to our class who went on for 2 hours about how corn and by-products were actually excellent protein and carb sources, and she was even kind enough to offer everyone a laminated fancy "Dangers of Raw Food Diets" poster.

I did a project on raw food diets, and when I talked to my teacher, who is a vet about it, she agreed that some dogs do do very well on the diet, and that it does clean their teeth. But she said that vets can't reccomend the diet because of liability issues. If your dog chokes on a bone or your child contracts E.coli from exposure to feces the client could sue the vet for reccomending the diet in the first place. I can see her point, but at the same time this doesnt stop the vets from feeding dogfood that has been known to cause kidney damage and death. Sort of a double standard, dontcha think?

erykah1310
December 10th, 2008, 07:08 PM
For example, it would be nice to know exactly how "balanced" a varied raw diet is, or, what the true risk of pathogens are in irradiated raw food?

This "balanced" concern everyone has for animal foods drive me insane honestly.
I mean, NO person eats a completely balanced diet day in and day out their entire lives, no wolf, coyote, cougar, elk, buffalo ect ect ect does this either.

I do not understand when it comes to dog and cat food we feel it must be perfectly balanced EVERY SINGLE MEAL. Some days here with raw feeding the dogs may be getting more meat than offal, or more bone than meat ( by ratio) but the next day it may just "balance" itself out by getting more of the one thing that was lacking.

When we feed raw full time ( ie, fall, winter spring months) the dogs do not get any vegetables or fruits. And in 3 years or so of feeding this way there has never been a problem with it.
I don't believe that everyone should feed prey model like we do here, but its just not right to be stating that all dogs NEED this in their diet. Yes I feed tripe here and there and in a sense they are getting their "veggies" this way ( grass) but atleast it's far more natural ways of getting it than forcing them to eat apples or potatoes with their meals.

Raw is amazing once you have a comfort level with it and the confidence and research to have faith and knowledge in what you are doing. I hope to one day be a 100% raw feeding household, the difference I see in my dogs after taking the plunge and trying it out is all the research evidence that I need.

HOWEVER, I do have one dog who does not do well on any grain free diet:shrug: He's our "freak of nature" so to speak. It doesn't matter if its kibble raw or cooked, that boy needs his grains for some reason. He doesn't get ill with out them, but I feel he preforms at his best, looks his best and has the greatest energy with grain in his diet.
Trial and error, thats the only way to know what works for your dog and what doesn't.

totallyhip
December 10th, 2008, 07:19 PM
I agree with someone who said the key is doing the research.
Do tons of research and ask people for advice who feed it.

We feed all 3 of our dogs raw and they are thriving on it! We initially started b/c Luke had head tremors about 20 mins. after eating kibble. No vet could give us a proper explaination for it. I researched the tremors and someone suggested raw diet. So we figured why not? It actually costed less than the high end kibble we were feeding. He hasn't had a head tremor since. Before we switched he was also going to the vet 2 or 3 times a months for something or another. He hasn't had a vet visit since. We take him in for a yearly check up and the vet gives him :thumbs up !!! We have a great vet who supports the diet. Personally I agree too with the other person that said you are taking risks no matter what you feed.

We never leave our dogs unattended to eat by themselves. Even if we fed kibble or just meat. Sometimes our dogs gulp so fast. :eek: But we always sit with them and watch them eat. They have never choked on a bone.

It takes us longer to prepare it but its worth it to us. We just take precautions with raw meat. Much like we do when we prepare a meal for ourselves (of course we cook our meats but you know what I mean).

Its a personal choice really. But it does take time to learn it and research it. I wouldn't have it any other way :2cents:

Here are some sites to look at:

http://www.rawfeddogs.net/
http://www.barfworld.com/
http://www.njboxers.com/
http://www.rawlearning.com/

MerlinsHope
December 11th, 2008, 10:25 AM
I just have to get in on this conversation as well.

To the person who is asking about scientific studies regarding raw. No, currently there are no real published scientific studies with the exception of the work done by Dr. Tom Lonsdale of NZ, and by L. David Mech, PhD of California.
I'd like to point out that all the scientific studies done on kibble didn't about to much either. Look at what kibble has done to dogs.

What is important is that you understand the nature of your pet and not humanize it but over applying human values.
Your dog is not a human being. It's nutritional needs are different.

To the person who claims to have left their meat out too long so their dog got sick;
- sorry, that's absolute poppycock. A dog's stomach is 50% hydrochlorlic acid. Your dog could easily eat 3 week old, sunbaked road kill and STILL wouldn't get sick.
There is a good chance that your dog was ill to begin with and would have gotten sick anyways.

This is another caveat that many people have to understand is that, they come to Raw BECAUSE their dog is stick. Many come to raw as their last resort to try and solve pre-existing problems, so naturally they often do not get the results they are looking for, because in fact their dogs are sick to begin with.

To the person who suggested trying pre-made raw food.
- that is exactly the same mentality that led people to feed their dogs poor quality kibble in the first place. If you think that kibble is poorly regulated by our government, not fit for human consumption raw meat is even less regulated. Don't you want to know what you are putting into your dog's mouth? You certainly don't with premade raw. You think you do , but you don.t. - also it's more expensive than regular meat , and contains additives- many that are unwanted.

Feeding a dog raw food means going to a store, buying a variety of fresh meats and feeding it to your dog.
In many areas there are now organized groups who group purchase whole rabbits and chicks and other types of meats.

If we stick to Mother Nature's mentality, rarely do we go wrong. You dog needs 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% offal in their diet. It's really that simple. They may not need these ratios in every single meal, but they need a generalized version of that rule.

Tomorrow if your dog caught a rabbit, it would only have two kidneys, one heart, one liver and a bunch of meat.

The next day if your dog caught a cow or a chicken or a fish, it would STILL only have one heart, one liver and a bunch of meat and some bone... so to properly raw feed you have to start thinking in those terms. We never ever use supplements, but we do ensure appropriate EFA's (Essential Fatty acids), by serving fatty fish several times a week (sardines/herring/salmon/smelts or anchovies)

To the person who said that wolves eat the stomachs of rumens, as observed for more than 25 years by world renowned reasearcher L . David Mech, wolves shakeout the stomachs contents before consuming them, so in fact, they do not eat alot of vegetables, this is not a true statement at all, and whatever vegetable matter is still in the stomach is pre-digested. That is why green tripe has become a relatively important component for raw feeders.

We are a rescue here and have been feeding raw to every rescue that comes in here. We've been doing this for over 10 years. We have kidney dogs here, liver dogs here, FSF dogs here, Amyloid dogs here, IBD dogs here, we have demodex dogs here, candidae alibans dogs here, and not once, not once have we regretted feeding them raw, or have seen any detrimental effect due to raw.

Our vet, is observing our feeding techniques, because this year alone we've brought him over 72 dogs in varying health conditions, from good to downright near death, and he gets to see them achieve wellness with virtually no drugs and other chemical intervention.

We have to feed a lot of dogs here. Shopping for our meat takes time, just like shopping for our families. It means you follow the specials, develop liason with butchers, hunters, taxidermists, and more.

A few weeks ago, I put an ad on freecycle.ca asking for freezer-burn or freezer aged meat and in less than 1 week we picked up over 300 lbs of meat.

The only time I've seen dogs not profit from a raw diet, is when it is entirely mis-applied or completely mis-understood by the feeder - or worse a feeder who consistently buys cheap, bony types of meats, tries to cut corners. I can't tell you how many people think that a raw diet means chicken necks and hamburger meat.

I think the bottom line with entry level raw feeders is that they have to make a conscious decision as to whether they ARE going to feed raw or not, but if they don't, don't come up with bizarre and weird excuses to try to exhonorate their feelings. You either DO want to feed raw or you don't . And if you don't.. fine, but then seek out as much as possible, quality commercial foods that hopefully add to your dog's wellness rather than take away from your dog's wellness.

You will find in the long run however, that a quality bag of dog food costs just as much, or more, than an appropriate raw regime.
So the moral of that story is GOOD NUTRITION is NOT CHEAP.


It has been my personal observation that people who complain about the cost of a raw regime do not purchase quality kibble either.
and that's just my personal observation to date.



OK off my soapbox now.
Cheers
MM

PS - Please vote for us!
Every vote counts
http://www.care2.com/animalsheltercontest/76306

luckypenny
December 11th, 2008, 10:43 AM
What is important is that you understand the nature of your pet and not humanize it but over applying human values.
Your dog is not a human being. It's nutritional needs are different.


I think that's the most important bit of information all dog and cat owners must learn. Studying the anatomy of one's pet is a great beginning before reading up on raw feeding, if only to better inform oneself. The nutritional needs of different animals are indeed not the same as those of humans.

ETA: Merlin'sHope, can you share the name or clinic of your vet with us?

Love4himies
December 11th, 2008, 11:24 AM
I can see her point, but at the same time this doesnt stop the vets from feeding dogfood that has been known to cause kidney damage and death. Sort of a double standard, dontcha think?

Thanks TuilipRoxy and woof99, I see your point on raw feeding and liability, better to have ignorant clients, than educated clients just incase they sue :rolleyes:.

Vets don't have to take responsibility for what is in the food they sell, it is the manufacturer that would get sued.

MerlinsHope
December 11th, 2008, 11:26 AM
Dr. R. Langill
www.liesseanimalclinic.com

Jim Hall
December 11th, 2008, 11:28 AM
excellent post merlin thank you

MerlinsHope
December 11th, 2008, 11:30 AM
Edit...


re the kidney damage food.
One has to understand the relationship between the commercial dog food industry and the veterinary industry and the consumer industry and the fact that vets are not nutrionalists and rely on the information provided to them by the food manufacturers themselves..

BenMax
December 11th, 2008, 11:30 AM
For all those that do not Merlin's Hope rescue - I must tell you that they are one of the finest. Good people doing an amazing job! Hats off to you gals and guys at Merlin's Hope.

Love4himies
December 11th, 2008, 11:34 AM
Well said, MerlinsHope, so glad you have such a great vet.

I forgot to add that ALL my foster kittens are put on a raw diet (prepared-NV) and I have heard comments from 3 different vets that they have such tremendous muscle mass. They couldn't believe it. Global Pet Foods who adopt out my fosters also comment on their muscle mass. That is enough scientific proof for me that cats should be on raw.

luckypenny
December 11th, 2008, 11:40 AM
...yes please contact him for his own observations of our dogs. I'm sure he'll happily share this with you.

Oh, I don't need to be convinced, watching my own dogs thrive is enough :). It's just good to know there's a vet who's informing himself as well and won't look down upon his clients for choosing raw feeding.

totallyhip
December 11th, 2008, 12:23 PM
Here here Merlins Hope!
I agree 110%

Blackdog22
December 11th, 2008, 03:31 PM
To the person who claims to have left their meat out too long so their dog got sick;
- sorry, that's absolute poppycock. A dog's stomach is 50% hydrochlorlic acid. Your dog could easily eat 3 week old, sunbaked road kill and STILL wouldn't get sick.
There is a good chance that your dog was ill to begin with and would have gotten sick anyways

MerlinsHope, you seem to have mis-read my post. If you were to go back and re-read you will see that I did not state the meat being left out was the cause.....it is speculated to be a factor. Of course my vet could have been freaking me out as she was very anti-raw and I know biases do come into play. As far as I know, there are no known causes for gastric entritis?

Anyway, point Im trying to make is, I did not make my post in attempt to mislead people and I am very sorry if I did. I simply wanted to share my experience feeding the food.

gypsy_girl
December 11th, 2008, 03:57 PM
You could check out www.monicasegal.com she has lots of good info on raw stuff, but she formulates using NRC standards.

sugarcatmom
December 11th, 2008, 06:01 PM
In the meantime there are veterinarian nutritionists that people can get a consult with and for a charge they will make up a homemade recipe based on the ideal needs of the individual pet. This is were we send clients that want to do homemade. petdiets.com I believe is the site.

I feel the need to point out that veterinary "nutritionists" are rarely any better than regular vets when it comes to feeding our companion animals. They're still educated in the same system that sees nutrition courses taught by pet food company representatives, and they're still pimping out the prescription diets on behalf of said pet food companies.

The petdiets.com website is horrid, along with it's equally laughable companion site: balanceit.com. Both are anti-raw, and both still advocate grains for carnivores, as well as pushing the myth that pets with renal insufficiency should be on low-protein diets. Petdiets is owned by Dr. Rebecca Remillard, who's been known to say that the natural feline diet (ie rodents, small birds etc) isn't nutritionally balanced (wtf??). She thinks all dogs and cats fed raw bones will eventually suffer an intestinal perforation. She loves to use condescending scare-tactics that imply us common folk are too stupid to feed our own pets.

And you guessed it, she loves to promote those prescription diets. No surprise there when you consider that a book she co-wrote called "Small Animal Clinical Nutrition" (used as a text-book in veterinary nutrition courses) was published by the Mark Morris Institute. Mark Morris Sr., for those that don't know, started the whole Hill's mega corp and invented the first "prescription" pet food (Canine K/D). His son, Mark Morris Jr, is a founding member of the American College of Veterinary Nutrition, the very organization that gave Dr. Remillard her credentials. Oh ya, and the Mark Morris Institute provides, free of charge to the host school, a teaching program in veterinary nutrition. Stocked with their own stable of vets. Who all work for Hill's.


Dr. Rebecca L. Remillard, a veterinarian and a veterinary nutritionist, says, on the PetDIETS site, that "the public health risk appears to be a significant downside" to feeding raw diets, "with no nutritional upside."

Puh-leeze. :rolleyes:

Love4himies
December 11th, 2008, 06:18 PM
:thumbs up Well said Sugarcatmom, you are always so wise in your words.

I went on the petdiets.com website, you have to pay for the info.

want4rain
December 11th, 2008, 06:43 PM
-sheepis- im afraid to admit that Mister has buried his food for over a week in the fall... which is still warmer than our fridge by a long shot. we stopped feeding him outside cause of it!! :rolleyes: had no troubles eating it although i wouldnt suggest that to a dog (or cat) with health issues especially one who has trouble with their immune system.

-ash

LittleMonster
December 12th, 2008, 12:29 AM
Thank you all for the replies, very informative.

Thankfully, my dog is a 6lb pom. He doesn't have any health problems at the moment and due to his size, it is quite cheap to feed him even the most expensive food. So cost is not an issue with me.

Yes, dogs and cats are made to eat raw, this is exactly why I ventured into the world of raw. :) I really hate the thought of giving the dog the human equivalent of "cereal" and canned food everyday.

He is currently having orijen chicken and fish (rotating), and during dinner time he always gets a bit of cooked chicken/beef & veggies that we set aside in another pot with no salt/spices. He loves the home made stuff, but no matter what I do I can't get him to have canned food. He usually takes a few bits of the canned food and nothing more (and I've tried many, many different brands and flavors).


I chose not to feed raw due to a bad experience with it.
Years ago I attempted to feed my female raw. Everything was fine for the first little while until one fateful afternoon. I put down her food as usual and walked away, for some reason I lost track of time and didnt return to the dish for 20 minutes.

You are right, raw probably was not the main culprit. [edit] My dog sometimes gets into the most disgusting things you could possibly find. For example, I walk him everyday to a lake near my house, the other day he managed to find a dead fish (dead for a number of days, mostly skin/head, even the seagulls didn't want it!), I caught him trying to fit the entire fish head in his mouth, no doubt trying to eat it. I'm sure he got bits and pieces of it before I could get it out of his mouth, luckily the next day he was just fine... But like you, it still scares me simply because the consequences of tainted food is so great. Even if the bacteria aren't the cause, I know I'll be kicking myself if something did happen, and I wasn't doing my best do prevent it...



What was the deciding factor that convinced me? It wasn't any of the research I did on my own; it was an experience. One of our dogs never did well on kibble, whether it was vet prescribed or one of the high quality brands.

This is exactly why I'm not completely sold on the idea is because my dog is doing pretty well on orijen. :shrug:

Here's the trouble, who funds studies? Primarily dog food companies, which don't stand to make any money off looking at raw diets, so unfortunately, you may no find what you're looking for.


True. I read an article yesterday and it mentioned the shortage of small animal nutritionists at veterinary colleges. Basically, when the college does not have anyone available to teach the class, they ask the nutritionists from food companies to come in and teach. In another article, a vet was saying that raw/home cooked diets don't really get any lime light during the classes. All the students do is sit and analyze different food brands, and study what each ingredient does.

This "balanced" concern everyone has for animal foods drive me insane honestly.
I mean, NO person eats a completely balanced diet day in and day out their entire lives, no wolf, coyote, cougar, elk, buffalo ect ect ect does this either.


You are right. I can hardly call my own meals balanced, I am probably being a bit too paranoid/overprotective. :rolleyes:

Medi-Cal used to offer homemade recipes and even gave away to clinics free of charge vitamin and mineral premix...

This may need another thread on its own... but... Speaking of premixes and supplements, has anyone tried out supplements designed for raw diets and home cooked meals? I've come across this company: http://www.knowbetterdogfood.com/

And another thing, has anyone tried the "fresh" cooked food available at pet stores? I don't mean the raw or canned food, but the packaged fresh food.

Another edit: I noticed Horizon also makes raw patties called "Horizon Pure". I know they make good kibble, so what about their raw? Someone in this thread said not to trust pre-packaged raw food. What about the Horizon Pure stuff?


On a totally unrelated note, it cracks me up every time my dog "talks" when he dreams during sleep. He is doing it as I type this... lol

Khari
December 12th, 2008, 06:15 AM
I am new to this forum and glad I have joined. I live in Canada and a company named Champion Pet Foods makes "Orijen and Acana" Pet foods. BlackDog22 had mentioned that they feed this to their dog - I am going to post an article for you to read (although it is about Orijen cat food it still comes from the same company http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/articles/167/1/Warning---Orijen-Pet-Food-linked-to-Cat-Deaths/Page1.html .....My friend was going to switch to Orijen for her dog - she contacted the company with several questions (on several different emails) in the last 3 months and not one response. I don't know if anyone sees all the recalls on Pet food??? I see it more and more these days when I search on the internet. It of course is not widely published. I used to feed my cats medi-cal and Royal Canain. They were on special diets with the vet for years. None of the foods helped with their ailments. They just covered them up for a short time. My cats never lost weight, had constant diarhhea, and UTI's kept on reoccuring. Never mind the constipation issue. Since I have put them on raw they have lost weight, and the one cats diarrhea has completely cleared up. My vet that I now take my cats to supports a raw diet. He says that most vets do not have nutritional experience and get kick backs from the pet food companies for selling their pet food.

I have been doing alot of research on the web on a raw diet and see the pros and cons but alot of the cons are by vets who then go to suggest the petfood in their clinic??? I also wonder if some things are posted anonymously by the pet food industries to scare people away from the raw diet so they buy their food?? Just a thought...

Thanks for this forum....

MerlinsHope
December 13th, 2008, 05:41 AM
Well said, MerlinsHope, so glad you have such a great vet.

I forgot to add that ALL my foster kittens are put on a raw diet (prepared-NV) and I have heard comments from 3 different vets that they have such tremendous muscle mass. They couldn't believe it. Global Pet Foods who adopt out my fosters also comment on their muscle mass. That is enough scientific proof for me that cats should be on raw.

He's an outstanding vet. If he didn't believe in raw, he never , ever mentioned it to us, and now of course , he believes in the power of it, because he's seen the difference in our own shar-pei and the ones that are brought in by other customers.

Last year I moved to Ontario (near Prescott), and it's been incredibly difficult to find a vet that will even offer Rescue discounts AND even more difficult to find one that supports Raw regimes. Next to impossible, so now we basically still go to our regular vet in Montreal. We're only 1.5 hours away so it's well worth the trip.

I've even gotten the local Dalmation rescue to get into raw and they've been successful for the past two years now, even with a kidney dal. (and that's a huge deal because Dals are genetically sensitive to purines), and they also make the trek into Montreal to visit the same vet.

He's the greatest vet I've ever had the pleasure of working with!

MM
L:

erykah1310
December 13th, 2008, 08:21 AM
Oooh, Prescott!
Very off topic, but have you had the pleasure of meeting "super trainer/GSD breeder" there yet?
:wall:
Watch out for her, shes quite the scam artist.

Love4himies
December 13th, 2008, 08:24 AM
I don't know what is wrong with vets in this area, greed maybe??. I understand Kingston vets don't offer discounts to the local humane society.

Dekka
December 13th, 2008, 11:00 AM
I have been feeding raw to my JRTs (I breed occasionally) the JRT fosters the whippets and now the BC for the past 4 years. I know breeders who have been doing it for over 20 years. Interestingly their dogs live longer than average, sometimes a LOT longer than average for the breed.

I went back to school to get a new piece of paper (I am now a forensic biotechnologist) at at times would pick up Orijen if I was to busy to get raw. They did ok or Orijen but they do even better on raw. All my dogs race and most do agility. I can tell by the placings looking back what they were on.

Raw can be cheaper if you plan ahead. I have a dedicated freezer (we have 7 dogs of our own and can have a couple extra at any given time) and buy 400 pounds or so of raw at a time from a raw co op.

I remember when I first switched to raw-the dogs looked at me like they couldn't believe their luck. This was as good as 'people' food.!!!

pitgrrl
December 13th, 2008, 11:18 AM
I remember when I first switched to raw-the dogs looked at me like they couldn't believe their luck. This was as good as 'people' food.!!!

:laughing: I often joke about making raw feeding "ads". When I fed kibble, I literally had to hand feed Streets more often than not, otherwise he just wouldn't touch his food, and we went through every good quality kibble and canned food I could get me hands on with no luck.

Now, The dogs literally sprint to their crates for meals. We have to keep the race track, I mean path, from the kitchen to the crates clear to avoid dog crashes and pile ups.

MerlinsHope
January 1st, 2009, 11:00 AM
I don't know what is wrong with vets in this area, greed maybe??. I understand Kingston vets don't offer discounts to the local humane society.

I don't know either. Perhaps in the larger cities there is more competition so vets have to get creative with their services, although I will say that our vet is a vet for all the right reasons. He also doesn't drive a Mercedes and live in a house the size of a hotel. I'll assume that to make a huge difference in his rates as well.

It's worth for me to drive the Montreal. Well worth the trip.

H A P P Y N E W Y E A R 2009
MM
:)

MerlinsHope
January 1st, 2009, 11:01 AM
Oooh, Prescott!
Very off topic, but have you had the pleasure of meeting "super trainer/GSD breeder" there yet?
:wall:
Watch out for her, shes quite the scam artist.

No actually. So far not at all, and I can't say that I've met anyone here who has either but that doesn't mean anything. I'll keep an eye out though.
Thank you

H A P P Y N E W Y E A R 2009
MM
:)

MerlinsHope
January 1st, 2009, 11:02 AM
[I][B]
MerlinsHope, you seem to have mis-read my post. If you were to go back and re-read yo.

Oh.. so sorry. Thousand Pardons!

H A P P Y N E W Y E A R 2009
MM
:)

flipgirl4
January 5th, 2009, 09:42 PM
Keep in mind that the stomach acidity of a kibble-fed dog vs that of a raw-fed dog is different. When a kibble-fed dog is converted to a raw diet, its stomach acidity increases so it`s important to transition slowly. I`m not a big fan of kibble and raw being fed together but I understand some do it because of financial concerns.

I just heard about a study done on premade raw diets which found that 60% of them had salmonella and E.coli or somewhere near that percentage. I don`t know who sponsored the studies however. The study didn`t mention that a dog`s digestive system isn`t as affected as a human`s would be because it`s shorter and the acidity level is higher.

I think a big concern for me is the quality of the meat you are buying. To me, what`s the point of feeding raw if you`re feeding your`dog meat that has been fed antibiotics, steroids and hormones. I understand that people can`t always go raw because of financial reasons or whatever; I`m not going to tell others what they should feed their dogs.

MerlinsHope
January 6th, 2009, 05:51 AM
Keep in mind that the stomach acidity of a kibble-fed dog vs that of a raw-fed dog is different.

The above is a tad inaccurate. I understand what you are saying, but it's not about the acid. Unless the dog has established, developed candidae albicans, chances are good that the stomach acid is intact. What does change is the type of enzymes the stomach produces to digest the actual food contained therein, so if a dog is used to eating kibble, the dog's stomach has become conditioned to produce "X" enzymes to break down the food.

If, all of a sudden we offer a different type of food, the stomach, which has become SO conditioned to a single food source, has to "re-learn", (if you will), to conjure up a new type of enzyme to process this new type food.

This is why very often, kibble dogs toss up their raw for a about the first week or so. Their stomachs are conditioned to produce the incorrect types of enzymes to digest the food.

The work around for this is to feed your dog at different times, outside of their normal schedule, so if your dog is used to eating dinner at 6:00 pm, you can be pretty much assured that your dog's stomach is already priminng itself for those little crunchy kibbles..... so feed your dog before 6, or way after 6 or at 3 if you can. Completely change your feeding cycle for the first week or so and WILL help with the transition.

bendyfoot
January 6th, 2009, 01:11 PM
That's a good tip, MH. We're lucky in that our critters had no trouble with the transition at all...:thumbs up

A question for you, could you outline your feeding regimine for me/us? I'm curious what proportions you feed (ie RMBs, organs, etc) over the course of a week...you can pm me if you don't want to get into it here.

bendyfoot
January 6th, 2009, 01:14 PM
No actually. So far not at all, and I can't say that I've met anyone here who has either but that doesn't mean anything. I'll keep an eye out though.
Thank you

H A P P Y N E W Y E A R 2009
MM
:)

:offtopic: but is she still there (the Prescott GSD person?) I thought she'd moved to Southern Ontario? (maybe I'm confusing her w/ someone else but I dont' think so...in any case, yes, avoid like the plague)

TwistedAngel
January 7th, 2009, 12:37 AM
Well as to your question about knowbetterdogfood.com, I frequently purchase a product from its sister company for cats - felinefuture.com - and my Amber has done beautifully on it since she was a kitten. I love it because it allows you to control what meats of what quality goes in it and allows for a larger variety, but please not that it doesn't constitute her entire diet. She get the Instincts TC powder three to four times a week, with her other meals consisting of RMBs like chicken legs/thighs/wings, and the occasional egg or serving of offal. I'm quite sure the dog version is of the same quality, and would do just fine.

MerlinsHope
January 7th, 2009, 05:34 AM
Bendyfoot, no problem, especially since I'm doing this anyways for one of our adopters who is taking on one of our sharpei and wants to try to continue with the raw.

Everynight I've been sending her the dog's menu. I can constantly add it here for a week so that you can see. The only problem is the pictures. I'll try to upload them somewhere so I can add the pictures here.

MONDAY
(I photographed the packages so people could see the prices /specials that I shopped for)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3499/3175977397_dac68963ae_m.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3086/3176813680_d6996f2cac_m.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3119/3175977471_7bdc82df21_m.jpg


TUESDAY
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3328/3176813542_720a11ae72_m.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3113/3175977291_4c38b68fea_m.jpg


WEDNESDAY
(to be entered later on tonight)

bendyfoot
January 7th, 2009, 09:29 AM
Wow, this is great, thank you! I look forward to seeing the other "menus":D

Questions: I'm assuming, then, that you're feeding once daily (I think my girls would be thrilled to get that much food at one meal, but we do 2/daily meals right now...our GSD tends to get the yellow biley barfs if her tummy's empty for too long).

And the portions are based on weight of the dog?

And I see that you provide quite a variety at each meal, is there a specific reason for this?

MerlinsHope
January 7th, 2009, 05:20 PM
Questions: I'm assuming, then, that you're feeding once daily (I think my girls would be thrilled to get that much food at one meal, but we do 2/daily meals right now...our GSD tends to get the yellow biley barfs if her tummy's empty for too long).

The older dogs and generally fed once a day, sometimes to add variety to their lives I feed them twice a day (just divide up the food into two meals instead of one). Puppies are fed up to three times a day. It depends on the dogs.

And the portions are based on weight of the dog?


2-3% of body weight

And I see that you provide quite a variety at each meal, is there a specific reason for this?

If you look at the components in the bowl with those meals I've tried to offer 80% meat with 10% bone and 10 offal. Essential Fatty Acids are paramount in their diet so the addition of fatty fish helps me make sure they are getting appropriate EFA's. If I don't have a whole prey, ( like whole chick or rabbit), I try to emulate the same by using different meat or fish components.

Tonight's meal was a dull one
Behold:

Butcher steak with a chicken leg
again... 80% meat with 10% bone BUT no offal tonight - I'll make up for it tomorrow night.

Like I keep trying to tell people, raw feeding shouldn't be turned into a complicated affair, keep it simple.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3083/3177487705_267d7c6908_m.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3307/3178323288_661b1ebe49_m.jpg

LittleMonster
January 7th, 2009, 06:29 PM
dang, if i were there i'd steal a bowl and throw it on the bbq. :thumbs up

Thank you for the sample menu!

bendyfoot
January 8th, 2009, 11:28 AM
Keep 'em coming MH, this is helpful, and also making me feel like my choices so for have been good ones! :D

now, I know you told me to keep it simple, but I am a complicator by nature, so I will ask another question :laughing:

You mix up types of food (meat, bone, offal) in most meals. Is there any harm, in your opinion, in feeding the same proportions (80-10-10) without mixing the items? For example, I've been tending to feed ALL meat or ALL meaty bones or ALL offal in one meal (although they do get two meals a day so it varies daily I suppose, like this morning was meat and tonight will be meaty bones), tomorrow will be meaty bones in am and organ at night...this is ok too? (just tell me to stop fussing so much and I will :o:laughing:)

Masha
January 8th, 2009, 11:32 AM
How about fish? Do you feed raw fish to your dogs? I read that its best to feed 1 fish a week, raw. Do you feed it whole? Raw? Which types? How often/how much?

Do you buy your meat at a regular supermarket? Some people told me that supermarket chicken is too high in antibiotics and hormones... but the organic one costs sooo much...

I am currently doing 2-3 days a week on raw, and trying to absorb as much info as possible so that i can finally be brave enough to switch to 100% raw.

This is a great thread, thanks for the photos!

Love4himies
January 8th, 2009, 11:38 AM
Bendyfoot, no problem, especially since I'm doing this anyways for one of our adopters who is taking on one of our sharpei and wants to try to continue with the raw.

Everynight I've been sending her the dog's menu. I can constantly add it here for a week so that you can see. The only problem is the pictures. I'll try to upload them somewhere so I can add the pictures here.

MONDAY
(I photographed the packages so people could see the prices /specials that I shopped for)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3499/3175977397_dac68963ae_m.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3086/3176813680_d6996f2cac_m.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3119/3175977471_7bdc82df21_m.jpg


TUESDAY
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3328/3176813542_720a11ae72_m.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3113/3175977291_4c38b68fea_m.jpg


WEDNESDAY
(to be entered later on tonight)

Wow, their suppers look great, bet you have some super healthy dogs :thumbs up

bendyfoot
January 8th, 2009, 11:39 AM
MH is feeding fish, yeah. I'm on a mission to find a good source of fish this weekend, myself. It would be fed raw, and ideally whole (or a chunk of whole for a smaller dog).

Try to find a small butcher where you live. We've got one, and he knows exactly where all the produce is coming from, and none of it is mass-produced, it's much better quality. So we get really good meat (it's the only place we'll buy meat for the humans in the house, too) without paying the same prices as organic.

Love4himies
January 8th, 2009, 11:41 AM
I go to my local butcher in the tiny village of Lansdowne, he is great for providing for people's pets at minimal costs (plus nothing goes to waste), so like Bendyfoot said, check with your local butcher.

MerlinsHope
January 9th, 2009, 06:04 AM
Chickens were on sale so eveyone got chicken with a tablespon of green tripe
Now how easy is that?
$1.66 per dog tonight

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3436/3182271768_62732552c1_m.jpg

By the way, when I find these kinds of deals I stock up.
Yesterday I purchased 100.00 worth. In the Winter I store my meat outside, so no need for freezer

MerlinsHope
January 9th, 2009, 06:30 AM
Wellness
No more demodex, no more allergies, no more skin issues ( which brought these dogs to rescue in the first place) these issues were treated with food only, no drug thereapy.

Teeth.......... amazing. All pre-existing tartar gone.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3513/3181468833_d32d8197c7_m.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3454/3182302378_78790fa4ec_m.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3447/3181468891_c8e5371b9a_m.jpg

Love4himies
January 9th, 2009, 07:05 AM
Chickens were on sale so eveyone got chicken with a tablespon of green tripe
Now how easy is that?
$1.66 per dog tonight

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3436/3182271768_62732552c1_m.jpg

By the way, when I find these kinds of deals I stock up.
Yesterday I purchased 100.00 worth. In the Winter I store my meat outside, so no need for freezer

I love good deals :thumbs up

Wellness
No more demodex, no more allergies, no more skin issues ( which brought these dogs to rescue in the first place) these issues were treated with food only, no drug thereapy.

Teeth.......... amazing. All pre-existing tartar gone.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3513/3181468833_d32d8197c7_m.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3454/3182302378_78790fa4ec_m.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3447/3181468891_c8e5371b9a_m.jpg

AMAZING :thumbs up. Great job with those dogs :highfive:

bendyfoot
January 9th, 2009, 10:15 AM
MH, have you seen any benefits with raw with regards to environmental allergies? Our GSD started getting the itchies this summer...

MerlinsHope
January 9th, 2009, 01:54 PM
Environmental allergies.
- that's a difficult one to answer because there is no way for us to really know if a dog is not allergic to something until the demonstrate that actual allergy. So - if my dog has no allergies, then really I have no way of knowing.

What I can say is that quality nutrition does heavily contribute to the overall wellness of the immune system.

The immune system in our dogs has become compromised through a variety of factors, food only being one of them.
The more likely candidate would be over-vaccination combined with genetic factors, more so than food.

Cheers
MM

bendyfoot
January 9th, 2009, 02:03 PM
Thanks for chiming in.

Our girl has "genetic factors" up the wazoo, she's a trainwreck :rolleyes: But a very cute trainwreck!!!:lovestruck: Goodness only knows what's really going on.

Now you've raised another interesting issue...how often do you choose to vaccinate, or do you do titres, or???

MerlinsHope
January 9th, 2009, 04:45 PM
Tonight was two huge pork roasts that totalled 10.00 for the package, so everyone had a good meal for peanuts.
I supplemented with some chick hearts, a tablespoon of green tripe and one little old sardine.

Each dog got a huge chunk each.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3106/3183493774_81cd9d9b24_m.jpg

MerlinsHope
January 9th, 2009, 04:46 PM
how often do you choose to vaccinate, or do you do titres

Well for the rescues, we have to vaccinate at least for rabies. (really depends on age and circumstances of dog)

For my own dogs, the sharpei I do Titers for my chow, well, he hasn't been vaccinated in 10 years and I'm not going to either.

MM
:)

MerlinsHope
January 10th, 2009, 03:46 PM
Raw diet for Saturday
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3084/3185200819_8569ae47a6_m.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3457/3185200649_8b97b19209_m.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3498/3186043352_f24ab02e4f_m.jpg

Love4himies
January 10th, 2009, 07:17 PM
I showed DH your before and after pics of your rescues and the meals you provide. He can't believe the difference and wants your address so he can show up at dinner time it looks so good :laughing:. He wants his a little cooked though.

MerlinsHope
January 11th, 2009, 05:15 PM
Here is Sunday's catch.
Tomorrow the dogs will fast.
They will get some recreational bones, but that's it.
I hope this exercise was useful.
I tried to use foods that are easily found in grocery stores in an attempt to show people that it really isn't very complicated to feed a raw regime.


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3458/3188750719_fb482956ee_m.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3463/3189595104_03c73201af_m.jpg

bendyfoot
January 11th, 2009, 05:20 PM
Thank you MH, this has indeed been very helpful for me. I sat down at looked at my feeding plans again this weekend, and although I think my first attempt was pretty good, seeing some good examples helped me firm up some things and I've got a new "system" for prep that I'm really happy with.

Now, if you have any suggestions how to get a fussy dog to eat fish, I'm all ears. :laughing:

ETA: I wanted to add that, in only 3 or so weeks of full-time raw feeding, we've already noticed two things: the puppy's eyes are no longer constantly streaming goop and Jaida no longer has the dubious nickname "Farty McCheese"...she's neither gassy nor smelly around her head/ears, as she has been for a few months. :D

MerlinsHope
January 12th, 2009, 05:45 AM
Now, if you have any suggestions how to get a fussy dog to eat fish, I'm all ears

Sure, sprinkle on Parmesan cheese, rub on green tripe, or some butter.

Also, remember that a hungry dog won't starve itself either. Once your dog gets to understand the smell, taste and texture of fish they will eat it.
Your dog probably just doesn't understand what fish is, and it does smell completely different from meat

Great news about the smell you were 'smelling'... just goes to show you that your dog was headed for candidae! Saved!!!!

Cheers
MM

bendyfoot
January 12th, 2009, 09:06 AM
Good gravy. I've never heard of candida before. I just looked up info on candida overgrowth, and the symptoms associated with it.

Holy crap I think Jaida's had this going on! She's been on soooooo many antibiotics, and some were extremely hard-core (like, as in, injectibles meant for cows and horses when she was 3 months old...for 6 weeks). I found this list, and have bolded ones that apply to her:

GENERAL HEALTH

--fatigue

--poor appetite

--overweight

--nervous

--anxiousness, anxiety

--allergies

--environmental sensitivities to pollens, weeds, and grass

--frequent infections

--dull, rough hair coat

SKIN

--rashes and itching

--hives

--draining sore

--itchy feet

--chewing feet or tail area

--body odor

--face rubbing

--acne

--eczema

--oily, greasy skin

--dry, flaky skin

--excessive shedding

--discolored (blackened) skin

--thickened, rough skin

RESPIRATORY SYSTEM

--wheezing

--coughing

--asthma

--nasal discharge

--reverse sneezing (snorting)

--itching nose

DIGESTIVE SYSTEM

--bad breath

--smelly bowel movements

--indigestion

--frequent episodes of vomiting and/ or diarrhea

--constipation

--anal gland/anal sac irritation

EARS

--increased discharge

--ear infections

--ear itching or pain

EYES

--itching eyes

--red, irritated eyes

--cloudy eyes

--excessive tearing, oozing

--dull appearance to eyes

MUSCULOSKELETAL SYSTEM

--joint pain

--arthritis

--backaches

--stiff neck

URINARY/GENITAL SYSTEM

--bladder infection

--bladder/kidney stones

--increased urination

--irregular heat cycles

--vaginal discharge/infections

Jeez if this helps with the infections and allergies, not to mention her joints, I'll be THRILLED! I've noticed her doing a lot of extra chewing in the past two weeks, and I read that sometimes symptoms can become worse as the body gets the candida out of its system. Have you seen this before, MH? Is there anything else I can do to support her immune system right now?
--

MerlinsHope
January 12th, 2009, 01:04 PM
If Julia has been on antibiotics, then yes, she surely can have a yeast population problem, that's why it's so important for us and our pets to use enzymes when we take antibiotics.

Julia might be so severe that she requires an internal fungicide. Sometimes humans do as well. You'd have to check that one out with your vet.

You can start by lowering her pH and giveing her small amounts daily of apple cider vinegar, make sure it's DISTILLED, because if not, it contains spores itself and will not help the problem. (all undistilled vinegars do)

Start feeding green tripe (Mother Nature's enzymes) several times weekly, and offer some acidophilus tablets daily to help restore the colon.

Good luck with that. Yeast is insidious and once it takes a strong hold in the body it is really, really hard to get rid of and naturally NOTHING absolutely NOTHING with grain or carbs in it, and that includes cookies, biscuits, treats, or otherwise (bread crusts/ pizza crusts etc).

MM

bendyfoot
January 12th, 2009, 01:08 PM
fruits/veggies are out then, too? She likes apples and carrots :sad:

we've started tripe this week, and I'll look for the distilled cider.

She's probably been on about 8-10 courses of ABs in the past 20 months, sometimes two types at a time.

MerlinsHope
January 12th, 2009, 01:48 PM
fruits/veggies are out then, too? She likes apples and carrots


Vegetables and fruits contain sugar. Some fruits like apples contain very high amounts of sugar.

Sugar + carbs = yeast.
Vegetables also can contain high amounts of salt.

Sugar will rot teeth, and also stop the absorption of many drugs as well, so does vitamin C by the way.

Generally speaking if we always follow Mother Nature's plan we are on the right path. Apples and stringbeans are foods t hat dogs wouldn't necessarily eat on their own volition unless starving. They would chose meat over vegetables any time.


MM

bendyfoot
January 12th, 2009, 02:03 PM
Alright, we'll cut out the veg too. I think my partner will have a heart attack when I do that (I'm the raw queen in the house right now:D)...I've been feeding occasional "veggie slop"...mainly ground beef with a bit of leafy greens like kale, bell peppers and apples pulped up...because she's not quite convinced that dogs are 100% carnivores...seeing some "green" food makes her feel better :laughing: Maybe if I point out that the tripe is green she'll survive...

animaladvocate
April 30th, 2009, 02:29 PM
The study didn`t mention that a dog`s digestive system isn`t as affected as a human`s would be because it`s shorter and the acidity level is higher.


I am really enjoying reading this whole thread and it's very informative to hear everyones opinions and experiences. I was just reading this part and I'm not quite convinced it's correct.

First the pH scale goes from 0-14 with 7 being neutral (water) and zero being highly acidic (even though it's a *low* number, it's the *high* end of acidity).

Humans' stomach pH is average at 2 and dogs averages at 4 which actually menas that humans have "higher acidity"

...Am I mistaken? (It's happened before! :rolleyes:)

And if I'm not-then are dogs less suceptable to those bacterium because of another reason? The acidity surely cannot be the reason...:shrug:

MerlinsHope
May 1st, 2009, 06:21 AM
First the pH scale goes from 0-14 with 7 being neutral (water) and zero being highly acidic (even though it's a *low* number, it's the *high* end of acidity).

Humans' stomach pH is average at 2 and dogs averages at 4 which actually menas that humans have "higher acidity"
:

I think who ever wrote that reversed the figures. A dog's has a lower pH but the caveat is that their stomachs are 50% hydrochloric acid. A human's is not.

Cheers
MM

Chris21711
May 1st, 2009, 02:10 PM
I read this thread from start to finish for the first time today and am sorely tempted to go this route, it just makes so much sense :lightbulb:

Besides handling organs :yuck: which totally grosses me out, I am still trying to wrap my head around chicken bones, I know how badly those things can splinter.......Somebody please say something to convince me that this shouldn't be a concern :o

bendyfoot
May 1st, 2009, 02:13 PM
Here!:laughing:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3449/3214372300_2bdfce2e7d.jpg

Organs, yuck: cut a big batch into small peices and freeze them on cookie sheets, then package them in freezer bags. Feed them frozen (like livercicles!!) You only have to handle them goopy once. :thumbs up

Chris21711
May 1st, 2009, 02:35 PM
OK so I get around a chunk of liver wrapping itself around my throat :eek: what about the splintering of the chickie bones, can they not do damage on their way wending through the body to the other end.....I know that they get digested so I'm being led to believe .....and wiggly kidneys do you use them too :yuck:

bendyfoot
May 1st, 2009, 02:42 PM
Look up there? See that dog? It's eating a chicken leg! Crunch crunch crunch!!! Ok here's what you do:

Step one: go find a dog
Step two: open the dog's mouth (make sure it's a nice dog)
Step three: lookit dose big teefies in dere!
Step four: repeat after me: Hey, those are carnivorous teefies! Carnivorous teefies are meant for crunch crunching meat and bones!
Step five: feed the dog a nice chicken leg for being such a good doggie, hold your breath, relax, and be amazed by watching a carnivore eat as a carnivore should!
Step six: (you may have to wait a bit for this one). Take dog out for a poop. Marvel at how the poop is full of teeny, pulvirized, harmless bits of bonemeal...wow! The digestive system of a carnivore is perfect for breaking up those bits of crunched bones, yay!

Repeat steps five through six often (although six is really not all that mandatory, but you know you'll do it anyways :D)

bendyfoot
May 1st, 2009, 02:42 PM
oh yeah, and wiggly kidneys and giant grossifying beef hearts and little teeny bites of chicky hearts and giblets, yum!

Chris21711
May 1st, 2009, 02:47 PM
Look up there? See that dog? It's eating a chicken leg! Crunch crunch crunch!!! Ok here's what you do:

Step one: go find a dog
Step two: open the dog's mouth (make sure it's a nice dog)
Step three: lookit dose big teefies in dere!
Step four: repeat after me: Hey, those are carnivorous teefies! Carnivorous teefies are meant for crunch crunching meat and bones!
Step five: feed the dog a nice chicken leg for being such a good doggie, hold your breath, relax, and be amazed by watching a carnivore eat as a carnivore should!
Step six: (you may have to wait a bit for this one). Take dog out for a poop. Marvel at how the poop is full of teeny, pulvirized, harmless bits of bonemeal...wow! The digestive system of a carnivore is perfect for breaking up those bits of crunched bones, yay!

Repeat steps five through six often (although six is really not all that mandatory, but you know you'll do it anyways :D)

Yer making fun of me :o

Beef Hearts, croak :yuck: - K...I'm gonna try it....Serious question...shall I start, please say yes...by giving the raw in the morning and their regular in the evening?

bendyfoot
May 1st, 2009, 02:49 PM
no. go cold turkey. seriously...

gotta run, but hopefully someone else will be able to help with what I predict will be a deluge of good questions!!! :D

Chris21711
May 1st, 2009, 02:56 PM
Cold Turkey :eek: Well I have the weekend to chew on this and look for some friendly farmers and butchers, thanks for your help Bendy....:)

Phoebespeople
May 1st, 2009, 06:15 PM
Variety is the key.

Chicken, turkey and duck- The whole thing, or parts, quartered, chopped, frozen or thawed, necks, backs, organs, skin...
Beef - Marrow bone, heart(muscle meat), green tripe(uncleaned stomach, very important), organs, fat, tongue, tendons, one pound chunks, frozen or thawed...
Lamb - Same rules as beef. Green tripe, beef or lamb, is mandatory once a week...
Pork - Pork neck bones are always cheap at the meat counter, whatever you can find will work.
Mackeral or sardines - Fresh or frozen, canned in water with as little salt as possible...
Bison, deer, elk, moose, rabbit - the more the merrier, are you noticing a trend?
Kelp powder, alfalpha powder, salmon oil - Vitamins and omega-3. Some would insist on these suppliments.
No grains, especially wheat. No salt. No cooking.

Don't be afraid of your dog choking on RAW bones, dogs are natural masters of regurgitation. If it's too big of a chunk, they'll bring it back up and try again. It's how wolves feed their pups in the wild. And, chewing on bones is the best thing for their teeth. It physically cleans the teeth, it makes them produce an enzyme that naturally kils bacteria and gets rid of plaque, and it stimulates their digestive system to properly digest the impending meal.
NO COOKED or SMOKED bones though, those will cause grief.

Don't worry about salmonella or e-coli either, as far as your dog is concerned. Keep your kitchen clean and tidy, of course, and don't give them obviously rotten meat either. But remember, dogs sometimes eat poop, drink from mud puddles, roll in dead animals and lick themselves. Dogs digestive systems are very different from humans, bacteria that would make us sick has no real effect on them. My dog eats goose poop like it was candy, gross to me, not to her.

As for the issue of no scientific data... a hundred thousand years of gray wolf evolution in the wild is more than enough scientific evidence for me that dogs are carnivores and should only be fed raw.

LittleMonster
May 1st, 2009, 11:12 PM
wow i lost track of this thread for a while. Let me tell you, since making the original thread, i've been totally sold on raw.

if anyone is worried about chicken bones, just try breaking and crushing the smaller ones with your fingers, they are real soft when raw. my dog is a tiny 10lb little guy, and he chews through (smaller) bones just fine.

MerlinsHope
May 6th, 2009, 05:51 AM
In an attempt to offer more 'hands on' experiences, we just took in another pei, and as you can see from these pictures, she looks like hell. We will document her progress over the next two months so that you can see her changes. She is on raw ( naturally ), the only other drug at this point is a sulfer shampoo to calm down the yeast and quell the scratching. We are applying straight vinegar to the areas and she will be tested for thyroid issues.... the rest will be food healing.

As you can see from the pictures, the bottom half of her is entirely bald , (including parts of her pretty face), and has turned into leather.

Stay tuned

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3583/3504671185_2cf5268181.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3602/3505478430_1d71d96ff6.jpg?v=0

Love4himies
May 6th, 2009, 06:49 AM
Awww, Merlin's Hope, you are such a sweetie to help this dog. I can't wait to see the transformation as you do your "handywork". I hope some vets will be watching too.

Freyakitty
November 1st, 2009, 10:37 PM
My kittens are about 9 months... I have been looking online for pros and cons of a raw food diet... I do not want to do the "homemade" diet but the medallions. I tell you what... I am more confused then I started out being before I started doing the research... What age should one start feeding raw and what else should I add to there diet to make sure that they are getting all the vitamins and minerals that they need to stay healthy and strong... They do not seem to lake there dry food and I have gone throu 4 different types of dry foods... They will not eat it much. They seem to like canned foods but I know that it is not that healthy for them... So I figured I would take the leap into raw foods.. If anyone can help me with this that would be great... Thanks in advanced...

14+kitties
November 1st, 2009, 10:45 PM
Who told you canned food is not healthy for your cats? :wall: It is a fact that canned food is a whole lot healthier for them than any dry you can feed. It is the dry food that is creating a whole new group of illness' in cats. Of course the better quality of canned foods you can afford to feed the better it is for your cat. Foods like Wellness, Nature's Variety, Natural Balance, even some of the Fancy Feasts pates are all good choices.
The site listed below is one of Sugarcatmom's favourite sites. It gives tons of information on what you should be feeding your cats. I don't think you will find one dry food in it recommended for them to eat. There are also recipes for making your own cat food. Pretty easy to do. It just takes a little time and effort on our part. But aren't our pets worth it?
http://www.catinfo.org/

Freyakitty
November 3rd, 2009, 07:31 PM
Who told you canned food is not healthy for your cats?

A vet that I work for told me that it is not good for there digestive tract nor is it good for there teeth. I am not saying that she is right nor am I saying that you are... I mostly wanted info on a raw foods diet for the kittens and at what age is healthy. Also wanted to know what kind of vit/men I needed for them if I do decide to do the raw.

sugarcatmom
November 3rd, 2009, 08:48 PM
A vet that I work for told me that it is not good for there digestive tract nor is it good for there teeth. I am not saying that she is right nor am I saying that you are...

The vet is wrong. Sadly, she's probably spreading this misinformation to her clients and doing more harm than good.

Anyway, if you read the link that 14+ gave you, there is lots of info on how to make your own balanced raw meals for your kitties (written by one of the few vets that knows a thing or two about feline nutrition). You can start them on raw anytime, the sooner the better.

Love4himies
November 4th, 2009, 06:59 AM
There is nothing better than a properly prepared raw diet for your cats. I have seen the difference for myself over and over again. I have had different vets comment on what a wonderful physique my foster kittens have (all on raw diets). The kittens were started on the raw diet from the point of weaning or when they arrived into my house, so from 3 weeks to 6 weeks of age.

I do find the premade raw may have too much bone in it for some cats and has made some of my cats a bit constipated so I have had to add some fresh meat to them. Also, I found it terribly expensive.


Also if you want to have the teeth benefit, then you need to feed them chunks, preferable with some chicken bone in it. That has made a world of difference in my Jasper's teeth.