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Inbreeding Bad : BBC documentary

ashtoreth
December 8th, 2008, 09:32 PM
At the risk of being stoned to death by some hardcore breeders here...

This show, you might want to check in, it explains the draw back of inbreeding (something a lot of breeders do all around the world)

BBC: Pedigree Dogs Exposed

It's on TV right about...well... now (CBC, in Quebec anyway)
or you can easily find the torrent , theres a few clips of the documentary on youtube too.

:2cents:

Now if you excuse me, I'll go hide in a bunker ;)

aslan
December 8th, 2008, 09:33 PM
k don't know what site you think this is, but there aren't any hardcore breeders here.

Tundra_Queen
December 8th, 2008, 10:24 PM
k don't know what site you think this is, but there aren't any hardcore breeders here.

I was thinking the same thing. I've never seen any.

Debbie

mafiaprincess
December 8th, 2008, 11:38 PM
I wasn't a fan when I watched it months ago about the slant the BBC took. The plus side is due to the bad press the UKC is trying to implement a system that will involve health testing into their registry. It will hopefully clean up some of the mess over there.. but who knows how long it will take.

The way it was reported though, it may cause a surge of mixed breed breeding because they pushed how unhealthy purebreds are. While I'm sure there are issues, I think they blew it out of proportion and gave a biased slant. I'm glad that this may cause the UKC to make changes, but I'm not sure they went about it the best way. It made all purebreds and breeders of seem super sleazy when they seemed to focus on the worst of the worst they could find.

ashtoreth
December 9th, 2008, 08:46 AM
well its well known that some breeds have way too common genetic diseases (labs and weak joints for example)

babymomma
December 9th, 2008, 10:12 AM
As apposed to the mutts that are bred that will get genetic defects from both breeds that it is bred with. Do you thinkthat breeding two different breeds will automatically cancle out each others genetic diseases?

ashtoreth
December 9th, 2008, 10:43 AM
nope, I dont, it needs a lot more studies of the breed for that , and no one can really prevent this

however, breeding mom to son.... or vice versa...ew

babymomma
December 9th, 2008, 10:46 AM
I can gaurantee that bybs and PMs do this waaaaay more often then reputable breeders.. And this doesnt happen as often as you think.

AmericanBullMom
December 9th, 2008, 10:54 AM
I think what you are referring to is called "line-breeding". Its common with horses as well as dogs. MOST (not all) Well bred Arabian horses are Line bred, to keep the Line "pure".
Line breeding is NOT Mom to Son breeding though, they spread it around farther down the line, and bring in other Stud dogs of the same Bloodline...
Kinda like A person marrying their 5th cousin.... wich is totally not cool, but it wont result in a child with 4 heads.
Mom to son Breeding IS bad, and CAN result in birth defects, some of which can be life threatening.

IIIII say, Dont breed! Just rescue.

want4rain
December 9th, 2008, 11:55 AM
i dont know a bit about this subject but i think the English Bulldog is a pretty good example of limited gene pool.... although apparently the redfox is doing well enough genetically and they are all from 14 'original' foxes.

-ashley

ashtoreth
December 9th, 2008, 12:00 PM
exactly, rescues for the world ^^

bendyfoot
December 9th, 2008, 12:19 PM
Here's a post from a blog that I really enjoy, written by the type of breeder I would most certainly buy a dog from (if I could stop taking in other people's throwaways for more than five minutes:rolleyes:) Very in-depth discussion.

http://rufflyspeaking.wordpress.com/2008/10/21/inbreeding-and-using-coi-to-analyze-potential-pairings-yet-more-on-pedigree-dogs-exposed/

hazelrunpack
December 9th, 2008, 01:55 PM
Here's a post from a blog that I really enjoy, written by the type of breeder I would most certainly buy a dog from (if I could stop taking in other people's throwaways for more than five minutes:rolleyes:) Very in-depth discussion.

http://rufflyspeaking.wordpress.com/2008/10/21/inbreeding-and-using-coi-to-analyze-potential-pairings-yet-more-on-pedigree-dogs-exposed/

I wish that link had been around when we bought our Evan decades ago, bendyfoot. He had a COI of roughly .40! :eek: Having had some training in genetics, that put the hair up on my back. But every breeder/vet/college professor I talked to said "oh, all breeders have done that at one time or another and that's an acceptable way to establish a breed" and told me it wouldn't be a problem. I couldn't find anything like this article that supported my uneasiness.

Back then, there wasn't a lot of critical thinking, I guess--we weren't buying an emerging breed, we were going for an established one--and I fell right into step with the pervasive ignorance. We got Evan and, sweet as my little soulmate was, he was a genetic lemon and unhealthy from day one. He died 3 years to the day we picked him up. :sad:

However, that being said, even back then, the 'experts' I consulted were wrong--most dogs were not that highly inbred, as they aren't today. And on hindsight, I know I should have followed my gut feeling and found another dog...but then I would have missed out on the touch of divine that was Evan, too.

Line-breeding is sometimes as close as Aunt/nephew or uncle/niece, but anything closer than that is rare these days, at least in conscientious breeders. What happened in Evan's case was the breeder was on his last legs--he knew he was dying. He had developed this line of dogs over 60+ years and naively thought he'd worked out all the genetic kinks. He did a brother-sister cross. That litter was okay. Evan was out of one of those pups and a close cousin (another inbreeding on top of the first) and that's when the recessives reared their ugly heads, one generation out from the brother-sister mating. I don't know how the other pups in Evan's litter fared--we were too busy trying to keep Evan alive and happy to keep in touch with them--but at the last report we had, they were all healthy and doing well.

At any rate, if anyone does decide to go for a purebred, learning how to calculate Coefficients of Inbreeding and what it means, is well worth the effort. It's not a guarantee that there won't be genetic problems, but it does allow you to make a decision with your eyes open.

erykah1310
December 9th, 2008, 03:33 PM
I wasn't a fan when I watched it months ago about the slant the BBC took. The plus side is due to the bad press the UKC is trying to implement a system that will involve health testing into their registry. It will hopefully clean up some of the mess over there.. but who knows how long it will take.

The way it was reported though, it may cause a surge of mixed breed breeding because they pushed how unhealthy purebreds are. While I'm sure there are issues, I think they blew it out of proportion and gave a biased slant. I'm glad that this may cause the UKC to make changes, but I'm not sure they went about it the best way. It made all purebreds and breeders of seem super sleazy when they seemed to focus on the worst of the worst they could find.

I agree here.
I mean by no means am I for inbreeding as was discussed on the show and its not fair for the show to have been blaming the health issues in the CKCS for example on the Kennel Club for not doing anything about it.
This goes back to ethics of the breeder, the woman at the end with the CKCS that had a genetic disorder blatantly denying it and breeding him anyways is the most unethical thing I could imagine ( well not the most but still)
Same as the Peke who won Crufts having to have surgical alterations for him to be able to breathe, I'm sorry that is a breed standard thing, which is the breed club to change, not the registry.
Right now in the TM's, ATMA is trying to rewrite the breed standard to cap off height and other things, this is not the AKC's doings it's the breed club, which is presented and approved or not.
And don't even get me started on what ATMA is doing to the Tibetan Mastiff breed:wall: you want to see a breed end up at a genetic brick wall wait 5-10 years, thanks to ATMA not asking the for the stud book to remain opened past August of 2009 or indefinitely as most stud books are, no imports will be eligible for registration, meaning no genetic diversity. This is not AKC's fault, its the breed club not actually looking out for the breed.

So the show "Pedigree dogs exposed" in my opinion was informative for breeders who are open and receptive to change, and it was indeed a sales boost for "doodle breeders" and other designer dog breeders since now it seems that mixed is the only healthy way to go. But other than that I too felt it was biased.
Almost like a Michael Moore production or something:shrug:

Hound Dog
May 25th, 2009, 12:04 AM
The entire documentary can be watched online HERE (http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=44215931).

Every dog lover should watch this film. The apparent lack of concern of the Kennel Club officials was among the most shocking aspects of the film.

Of course this documentary does not pretend to be impartial or unbiased. It was made in order to present a point of view, based on facts and expert testimony. That doesn't make it any less valuable. In fact, all the best documentary films are works of advocacy.

As a result of this documentary, the BBC cancelled plans to broadcast the 2009 Crufts dog show. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2008/12_december/12/crufts.shtml)

SandraLM
July 4th, 2009, 04:20 PM
I watched the show last week and I was absolutely sickened by it. And the part that gets me is the UK will not allow tail docking or ear cropping saying it is inhumane. And all this inbreeding isn't? Give me a break.

lUvMyLaB<3
July 4th, 2009, 07:08 PM
I have not watched, but anything that will give BYB's more fodder to say their labradoodleoodle and buglugsinarugs will be healthier is enough to P*** me OFF! yay lets give the 'designer' breeders something to quote, yipee.

I SOOOoOOOooOOOOoooO AGREE With you BENDY!! I have always wanted a purebred white persian cat.. since I was a kid, not that a cats appearence is really that important to me, but it is something I have always dreamed of, and I too, If I could stop cleaning up other peoples problems, and taking care of their throwaways for 5 minutes, maybe I could pick out my own cat for once... that wont happen for as long as I live, I will never turn my back, and when I get one to foster, the ones i keep choose me, there are not words to explain when you know. But it would be nice wouldn't it? To actually choose a cat? weird!

Golden Girls
July 5th, 2009, 09:16 AM
The entire documentary can be watched online HERE (http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=44215931).

Every dog lover should watch this film. The apparent lack of concern of the Kennel Club officials was among the most shocking aspects of the film.

Of course this documentary does not pretend to be impartial or unbiased. It was made in order to present a point of view, based on facts and expert testimony. That doesn't make it any less valuable. In fact, all the best documentary films are works of advocacy.

As a result of this documentary, the BBC cancelled plans to broadcast the 2009 Crufts dog show. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2008/12_december/12/crufts.shtml)Thanks for that link, EXCELLENT exposure I've always found competitive dog shows obsessed with beauty Whatever happened to dogs being bred for function? This surely isn't just a UK issue, eye popping for the 177,421 views this got :thumbs up

I didn't know alot of this history although I was never a fan. Having watched this video I can't say there is any difference between what's going on in and for dog shows and puppy mills = profit ... dog circus

Chaser
July 5th, 2009, 09:43 AM
Thanks for that link, EXCELLENT exposure I've always found competitive dog shows obsessed with beauty Whatever happened to dogs being bred for function?

What really got to me was the difference between the show GSDs and the working police dog GSDs......I don't know enough about the whole issue to comment on whose fault it is or how common it is, but what I saw was that those poor show GSDs could barely walk because their hind legs and hips were so mangled. I can't believe a dog that is essentially deformed can be considered the "breed standard" - and the kennel club allows these dogs to compete??? It made me cry....a 2 year old GSD should NOT have it's rear end sagging a few inches from the ground! The "working" GSDs looked so much healthier.....not to mention they need healthy hips to do the jobs that they were bred to do! THAT should be the breed standard - is the dog in optimal health to do it's job? :sad: :2cents:

cell
July 5th, 2009, 01:58 PM
[QUOTE=Chase_Mom;797159]What really got to me was the difference between the show GSDs and the working police dog GSDs......QUOTE]
good points
I know in Canada the Belgian Malinois is the most common breed for police work. I wonder if it has somthing to do with the hips and the common place for the German Shepherd to be bred to large for convenient working. I was recently overseas and I saw a man in Stockholm with a young longhaired shepherd with its butt touching its heels as it walked. No dog should have its heels going up past its knees in a normal gait.
It would be fascinating to find a website which compared photos of show quality and working quality dogs registered in the same breed just to see the extent that beauty has manipulated functionality.

Mat&Murph
July 5th, 2009, 02:15 PM
I just find the whole sad and sickening, that people out there think that "the Perfect Dog" has to be made by humans. I watched the BBC program and was in tears, over the inbreeding and basicly cosmetic changes that they have made on these dogs. Very very sad :sad: