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Delaying spay...conflicts with other females?

bendyfoot
November 24th, 2008, 12:55 PM
I know there have been some discussions on the pros/cons of delayed sterilization for dogs. Our little gal Heidi is about the age that we would normally get her booked in for a spay (6 months). We have been considering delaying the surgery until she's closer to a year old, but it occured to me this weekend out of the blue:

is there any chance that if she has a heat cycle that our other dogs will react negatively to her? The other two are both females, and both spayed, but our oldest is an uber-dominant alpha biatch, and I'd hate to risk any negative interactions (i.e. huge fights) errupting because of swirling hormones...

does anyone know if there's a risk here?

BenMax
November 24th, 2008, 12:57 PM
Infact it may have an effect on your alpha female. What type of dog is the one that is to be spayed?

bendyfoot
November 24th, 2008, 12:59 PM
Little. Boston somethingorother mix.

BenMax
November 24th, 2008, 01:03 PM
Well there will be of course a debate on when it is an appropriate time for the procedure. Personally since she is a small breed I would do it at the 6 month point and no sooner. Had you said the dog was a mastif I would have suggested that you wait out the year.

What does the vet suggest?

bendyfoot
November 24th, 2008, 01:06 PM
Hasn't suggested anything, actually. They don't poke/bug us about too much "routine" stuff because we're pretty proactive and usually bugging THEM about things well in advance. This one, though, is new for me (considering the delay). Before, 6mos was automatic snip time. Her build/size has changed very little in the past 2 months, and I don't expect her to get much bigger.

sugarcatmom
November 24th, 2008, 01:34 PM
I heard a podcast recently that talks about when, given ideal circumstances, the best time to neuter/spay a dog would be. Not before 14 months, according to Dr. Christine Zink (http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html). Scroll down to podcast #96 to listen to this interesting conversation: http://www.traciehotchner.com/dt/podcast.htm#showsummaries

bendyfoot
November 24th, 2008, 01:39 PM
Infact it may have an effect on your alpha female. What type of dog is the one that is to be spayed?


You've seen this before, huh?

bendyfoot
November 24th, 2008, 01:39 PM
SCM, can't download the podcast...

BenMax
November 24th, 2008, 01:42 PM
You've seen this before, huh?

Certainly have. BTW - you will even see this with felines.

hazelrunpack
November 24th, 2008, 01:51 PM
In my experience, bitches in heat get more submissive as they approach estrous. There may be more humping on the part of your other girls. But if Heidi is already subordinate to your alpha girl, likely she'll just submit.

Two of our girls were adopted intact and went into heat right before their spay appts (:rolleyes: our usual good luck.) We had two other spayed girls at the time. The only behavioral changes we saw between the girls was the increased frequency of humping each other and the increased submissiveness of the one in heat at the time. There was no increase aggressiveness apparent in any of them. :shrug:

bendyfoot
November 24th, 2008, 02:02 PM
I HATE humping, and don't let my dogs do it, ever.

Heidi's a cheeky beggar and likes to push the envelope but always eventually defers to Gracie. I'm not worried about Heidi becoming aggressive or anything, I'm worried about Gracie getting ansty/edgy about Heidi if she has a heat.

hazelrunpack
November 24th, 2008, 02:24 PM
The only time Grace would likely get nasty about it would be if Heidi didn't back down. We don't have any uber-alphas here, but the ones in heat always deferred to the ones humping. They always backed down from the other girls. :shrug: So, at least from what I've experienced, I don't think that dynamic would be a problem for you. As long as Heidi already defers, she's likely to continue to submit to Grace even during her heat.

We also discourage humping, but be prepared for the frequency of it to go up. That is one behavior that the hormonal flux will increase. Just break it up as you would normally and remember that eventually, it, too, shall pass. :rolleyes:

bendyfoot
November 24th, 2008, 02:28 PM
Ok, thanks for sharing your experience...

still not sure what to do...will have to discuss will DW and the vet...

(but the thought of humping....:yuck:I HATE humping!!!!:yuck:)

hazelrunpack
November 24th, 2008, 02:38 PM
(but the thought of humping....:yuck:I HATE humping!!!!:yuck:)

:laughing: Humping is the least of it. The mess isn't too fun...and having to watch them every minute of every day...for 2 weeks... :rolleyes:

I'll tell you something about humping, though--our new boy, Brier, has been trying to find his place in the Pack and was challenging Ember (used to be beta...), our oldest. Ember kept getting hurt in the resulting set-tos. I was never so happy to see humping than when I caught Brier humping Ember a few weeks ago--it meant they'd finally worked out their respective status and likely we'll have no more injuries!! :thumbs up It's not a sexual thing...it's a way to work out pecking order...and I can tell you that once the pecking order is set, the whole Pack dynamic works so much more smoothly!!! :cloud9:

bendyfoot
November 24th, 2008, 02:41 PM
oh I know, I know, it's such normal and such non-aggressive communication for establishing things, but it just drives me batty (bendyfoot = prude:laughing:) !!!!!!

sugarcatmom
November 24th, 2008, 02:56 PM
SCM, can't download the podcast...

Can you save it to your desktop and then open it in Windows Media Player (or iTunes if you're on a Mac)?

bendyfoot
November 24th, 2008, 03:02 PM
nope, I'm blocked.

dogcatharmony
November 24th, 2008, 03:25 PM
Just my experience.....

A neighbour of mine a few houses down has an intact female (some kind of boxer mix). Of course her owners don't care and let her wander while she is in heat. Now this dog has played with my dog many many times before with no problems. Well she wandered into our yard while in heat, and my girl (who is fixed and apparently is a dominant female) went ballistic and had that dog by the throat the moment she came into reach. The second time that same dog came over, I went out to get mine before a fight and the dog in heat tried to mount my dog and all hell broke loose again. I had to go talk to the owner and tell him that I was worried that his dog was going to get seriously hurt (among possible other things) wandering around in heat.

They still play now when she gets loose, and as long as the other dog is not in heat everything goes fine:shrug:Guess it could go either way depending on the dog

hazelrunpack
November 24th, 2008, 03:43 PM
I wonder if the difference is that our dogs are all in the same Pack and so not a threat? An outside dog coming in might be considered an intruder? :shrug:

So there ya have it, bendyfoot. I guess it can go either way! :eek: Not much help, eh? :o

want4rain
November 24th, 2008, 06:54 PM
we are convinced that the conflict between Dee-o-gee and Prietta was because mom thought Dee-o-gee was fixed to find out she was in heat one day and tied up (youch) anyway, the two of them use to have a nice relationship. after that Prietta was very aggressive to Dee. to the ppint where my sister rehomed her because Prietta was drawing blood. id go ahead and get her fixed. :(

-ashley

Longblades
November 24th, 2008, 08:02 PM
I heard a podcast recently that talks about when, given ideal circumstances, the best time to neuter/spay a dog would be. Not before 14 months, according to Dr. Christine Zink. Scroll down to podcast #96 to listen to this interesting conversation: http://www.traciehotchner.com/dt/pod...#showsummariesVery interesting, thanks for posting that podcast link. I've read some of Dr. Zink's articles so it was nice to hear her speak. It seems the second part of that podcast, the part with Parvene Farhoody, is relevant to the OP as it describes INCREASED aggression due to neutering, especially in the female dogs. That has been mentionned in more than one reading I've done. I hope everyone gets a chance to listen.

Frenchy
November 24th, 2008, 08:32 PM
(but the thought of humping....:yuck:I HATE humping!!!!:yuck:)

:laughing: Humping is the least of it. The mess isn't too fun...and having to watch them every minute of every day...for 2 weeks... :rolleyes:



Yep , lots of cleaning up to do , and everywhere in the house. I won't listen to the podcast , my opinion is : spaying and neutering as soon as possible. For every cats and dogs. Saw and heard too many accidents happening because of waiting. :shrug:

kathryn
November 24th, 2008, 08:40 PM
o_O

Why would you want to delay getting her fixed?

Uh, the sooner the better for everyone.

hazelrunpack
November 24th, 2008, 08:53 PM
She may not have a choice, kathryn. Heidi is still getting over demodectic mange and the vet may want to hold off till her immune system has totally recovered.

And we always delay our spay/neuters now, for various reasons that I won't go into here. It's a personal choice that we feel benefits our animals in the long run, but it's not everyone's best choice. :shrug: bendyfoot is certainly a responsible owner and will take care that Heidi is safe, even if it turns out the spay has to wait.

sugarcatmom
November 24th, 2008, 11:42 PM
I won't listen to the podcast , my opinion is : spaying and neutering as soon as possible. For every cats and dogs. Saw and heard too many accidents happening because of waiting. :shrug:

I know that being involved in rescue can taint your view of humanity and make you think that there isn't a single responsible person left on the planet, but what if there are people that can look after an un-neutered pet without it procreating willy-nilly, and what if it truly is better for the health of the animal to wait? Sometimes these issues aren't as cut-and-dried as you think.

bendyfoot
November 25th, 2008, 07:50 AM
Yeah, I totally get where you're coming from, Frenchy, I really do (all my dogs are other people's throwaways from irresponsible breeding)...but you must know me well enough by now to know that I would NEVER allow unplanned puppies to come into this world, and that everything I do with my dogs is in their best interest, period. Bottom line: this is not a matter of "IF" I'm going to spay her, it's "WHEN".

Thanks for all your thoughts people....

I'm going to chat with the vet today about the mange complication...if it means postponing the spay, well, I guess we'll have to just manage anything that comes up, behaviourly or otherwise. Heidi is crated when not attended (she is a VERY naughty puppy:evil:) so there would be no risk of any fights or anything, and I can handle little dog messes, if it comes to that...

Longblades
November 25th, 2008, 08:59 AM
this is not a matter of "IF" I'm going to spay her, it's "WHEN". Exactly. A sentiment that is expressed in both Dr. Zink's and Parvene Farhoody's portions of the podcast.

K9 Love
November 25th, 2008, 09:31 AM
I attended an agression seminar months ago and a study was shown that stated, according to gender, the most liklihood for problems would be with two SPAYED females. Apparently it has something to do with the lack of horomones. Number two was two intact males.

Of course I know a number of households with numerous spayed females that get along fine, so as long as your on top of everybody if or when she comes into heat, perhaps keeping them separated when not supervised until you get a good feel of how everyone else is feeling, I think you should be fine.

bendyfoot
November 25th, 2008, 01:38 PM
Well, the official word from the vet is to hold off until we get an "all-clear" on the mange. We'll do a scraping in about a month, but we need two negative scrapings to declare the mange gone...and we've been warned it's likely to take 3-4 months to accomplish this. Looks like we're delaying out of necessity now, although I think I would still be considering it, regardless.

BenMax
November 25th, 2008, 03:06 PM
So glad you have resolution and great advice from the vet.

kathryn
November 25th, 2008, 06:39 PM
Hm. Well, I hear of too many cases of pyometra these days to think that waiting to spay is a good idea. I used to only think it happened once in a while, but I've found it to be alot more common then I originally suspected.

I do it at 2 months 2 pounds now... obviously will have to wait a few years to see if it means anything, but I really would rather do it before they even have the chance to pro-create.

Demodectic mange is not the bad one... we fix the dogs at my shelter when they have it and it hasn't made a difference.

Good luck either way... I really just don't agree with the idea of waiting to fix them...I just don't think there will ever be any positive outcomes to it and just has negative side effects.

aslan
November 25th, 2008, 06:52 PM
well kathryn on this one i think bendyfoot should go with the person who went to school and might know a little bit more about it. Fine your shelter fixes an animal with mange, you don't see the long term results, just as you don't see the results of early or late neutering.

sugarcatmom
November 25th, 2008, 07:40 PM
Hm. Well, I hear of too many cases of pyometra these days to think that waiting to spay is a good idea.

The average age of dogs diagnosed with pyometra is 9 yrs old.

I really just don't agree with the idea of waiting to fix them...I just don't think there will ever be any positive outcomes to it and just has negative side effects.

You'd be mistaken then. There is growing evidence that there are many negative side effects to individual animals (mostly dogs) undergoing early spay/neuter. From this link: http://www.traciehotchner.com/dt/files/WillWeChangeOnEarlySpay-Neuter_Villalobos.pdf

She concludes that the structural and physiological differences in early spayed or neutered dogs may be the reason why veterinarians see a higher incidence of orthopedic disease such as CCL rupture and hip dysplasia than in dogs spayed or neutered after 5 1⁄2 months of age.

Zink points out a retrospective study published in 1999 by Ware et al that found a 5 times greater risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma in spayed dogs vs. intact female dogs. Hemangiosarcoma is one of the three most common, devastatingly fatal cancers in larger dogs, especially German Shepherd Dogs and Golden Retrievers.

A 2002 epidemiological study of 3218 dogs done by Cooley and Glickman, et al, found that those neutered before a year of age had a significantly increased chance of developing osteosarcoma.

It is well known the incidence of urinary incontinence in female dogs that are spayed early is increased over non-spayed female dogs. This is due to the role that ovarian hormones play in the maintenance of genital tissues and urogenital contractility. Aron, et al, in 1996, reported that male dogs that were neutered early had an increased risk of developing urethral sphincter incontinence. A health survey of several thousand dogs by the Golden Retriever Club of America showed that spayed or neutered dogs had a greater risk of hypothyroidism. In 2001, Howe & Slater reported an increase of infectious diseases in dogs spayed or neutered at or before 24 weeks of age verses over 24 weeks of age. The 2005 AKC-Canine Health Foundation reported a higher incidence of vaccines reactions in neutered dogs as compared to intact dogs.

Like you, I used to think it was in an animal's best interest to snip 'em young (even thought mandatory spay/neuter laws were a good idea:rolleyes:), but after doing some research, I think these decisions should be made on a case by case basis. In shelter situations, it's probably still preferable for the sake of overpopulation. However, to make blanket statements that All animals, no matter what their circumstances, MUST be fixed by a certain age is condescending to responsible pet owners. And yes, there really are responsible pet owners out there.

Kai'smom
November 26th, 2008, 04:28 AM
Sorry if i am leading the story on another point that was mentioned here.... mange..... bendyfoot, what if i may ask are you doing to treat it?
Our two rescue pups have been treated for it and they are dabbed every couple of days with dip solution around the face and ears and paws where it is bad. They have had two injections as well to treat it. Ones head is bad and although the vet said the culprits are gone, he still has bad scabs on his head which bleed occassionally with aggressive play.
Just interested to hear what you have been doing.:shrug:

14+kitties
November 26th, 2008, 06:58 AM
The average age of dogs diagnosed with pyometra is 9 yrs old.
You'd be mistaken then. There is growing evidence that there are many negative side effects to individual animals (mostly dogs) undergoing early spay/neuter. From this link: http://www.traciehotchner.com/dt/files/WillWeChangeOnEarlySpay-Neuter_Villalobos.pdf
Like you, I used to think it was in an animal's best interest to snip 'em young (even thought mandatory spay/neuter laws were a good idea:rolleyes:), but after doing some research, I think these decisions should be made on a case by case basis. In shelter situations, it's probably still preferable for the sake of overpopulation. However, to make blanket statements that All animals, no matter what their circumstances, MUST be fixed by a certain age is condescending to responsible pet owners. And yes, there really are responsible pet owners out there.


:thumbs up Very well said SCM. The research I have done has pointed to later spays/neuters for some breeds as well. Makes you think, doesn't it? I agree with the shelter pets being done earlier but for responsible pet owners I think it should be their choice.
Bendyfoot - thanks for doing your research! :highfive:

bendyfoot
November 26th, 2008, 08:01 AM
Kai's mom...Heidi is getting 0.5cc orally of Ivermectin (Ivomec) once a day.

aslan
November 26th, 2008, 08:08 AM
bendyfoot, didn't even occur to me until talking to scm last night, My mom had her two poodles on doggie birth control pills. or was it a shot, hmmmm. might wanna ask your vet about it.

bendyfoot
November 26th, 2008, 08:25 AM
That's a good idea, aslan, I'll mention it when we're in for her next skin scraping.

Oh, and FWIW, Kathryn, spaying doesn't 100% protect dogs from pyometra. I've been doing some research on something called "stump pyometra", which is an accumulation of pus/infection in the remaining parts of the cervix/uterus and/or vaginal canal in spayed dogs. There is a chance that Jaida's recurrent vaginal infections are actually a sign of this condition. It's more common than I would have thought, and can be very dangerous as well.

aslan
November 26th, 2008, 08:38 AM
hey bendyfoot, i'm trying to get my mom on the phone to see if she remembers what it was they used, must be shopping day, no answer, rowdy old bird out galavanting.

bendyfoot
November 26th, 2008, 08:59 AM
Thanks, I'll take any info I can get. :thumbs up