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How much to feed

danam314
November 4th, 2008, 01:55 AM
My dog just got thru a bad case of diabetic ketoacidosis. He was in the emergency for 5 days and was barely eating for 1 week before that. Now that he is home and feeling better he is eating like a horse! He lost 14lbs during this whole ordeal and I would like to get his weight back on. Currently I am feeding him 2 cups of chicken, 1 cup of rice, 1/3 can of dog food, 1 tbsp of pumpkin and 1 tbsp of yogurt for breakfast and dinner. I am also giving him 2 small meals throughout the day because he just sits with his head in his bowl staring at me for hours. Every time I get up he RUNS to the fridge and jumps in circles because he thinks it's feeding time. At this time he is refusing to eat kibbled food at all.

Our vet appointment isn't until Wed morning so I will find out exactly how much to feed him, but until then, should I increase it a bit? I want him to be full but not over eat too much. He used to weigh 68.5 lbs and now he is 54 (yes, our vet knows that lol).

Thanks.

rainbow
November 4th, 2008, 03:54 AM
You don't want him to gain the weight back too quickly so I think you are feeding him enough.

Is the canned food you are feeding him a high quality such as EVO? (http://www.evopet.com/products/default.asp?id=1489) Also, you could add some steamed and mashed green beans as they will help him to feel full.

danam314
November 4th, 2008, 10:02 AM
Yup, he is getting a high quality red meat (no grain, cereals, wheat) canned food.

I was just so worried because all he wants to do is eat. I didn't know if he was really THAT hungry. I will try the green beans. Thank you!

EDIT: I went to the store and got some frozen green beans, boiled them up in some chicken stock and put them in the food processor with some chicken breast. Koda looked at me like I was insane! :laughing:

I will try again at dinner time and try to hide them a bit better this time!

rainbow
November 4th, 2008, 12:47 PM
LOL....how much green beans were you giving him? I would just add no more than 1/2 cup to the meals you were already feeding. :)

danam314
November 5th, 2008, 01:01 AM
I gave him just a small handful. I put it in the food processor with a chicken breast. I did it again with his dinner, but I also added the rest of the food (rice, pumpkin, canned food and yogurt) and he gobbled it up quick as can be. Apparently he likes more meat with his beans :laughing:

rainbow
November 6th, 2008, 01:55 AM
LOL....I don't blame him. :D


How did his vet appt. go? :fingerscr :goodvibes:

danam314
November 6th, 2008, 11:22 AM
Hi rainbow. It went well, thank you for asking. His weight is improving. She is very pleased with that. She thinks that I am feeding him a perfect amount and she LOVES that I'm giving him green beans. Thank you :thumbs up

She said to just give him a small snack when he brings his bowl to me, but mostly try to ignore him. I do try, I really do, but it's soooo hard!! I know that it's playing with his blood sugar readings though, so I think I'm just going to take away his bowl when he's done eating. She put him on a new kind of insulin and they need a 48hr blood sugar curve, taken every 4 hours, so I don't want to mess it up with extra meals.

We're going to switch him to a hypo allergenic canned food. I can't remember what she said it was called, but I'm going to pick it up from her on Friday :)

Dog Dancer
November 6th, 2008, 12:29 PM
I hope you didn't let him see you putting the green beans in his food!! Glad to hear the appt. went well and he's eating the beans now.

rainbow
November 6th, 2008, 02:15 PM
We're going to switch him to a hypo allergenic canned food. I can't remember what she said it was called, but I'm going to pick it up from her on Friday :)


Glad to hear the vet visit went well and his weight is improving. :thumbs up

The canned food she is going to push on you is likely Medi-Cal. :yuck: A much better choice would be one of the California Natural formulas....

http://www.californianaturalpet.com/search/

rainbow
November 6th, 2008, 02:43 PM
California Natural Chicken and Brown Rice

Ingredients

Chicken

Chicken Broth

Brown Rice

Natural Flavors

Flaxseed

Potassium Chloride

Carrageenan

Guar Gum

Sunflower Oil

Included in our foods are some of the following vitamins and minerals: Ascorbic Acid, Beta Carotene, Biotin, Calcium Carbonate, Calcium Iodate, Choline Chloride, Cobalt Carbonate, Cobalt Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Dicalcium Pantothenate, dl-Methionine, Folic Acid, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Niacin, Potassium Chloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin C Supplement (Sodium Ascorbate), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement (Alpha Tocopherol), Zinc Proteinate



Medi-Cal Hypoallergenic

Canned Ingredients

Water Sufficient for Processing, Pheasant, Rice Flour, Duck, Brown Rice, Duck Meal, Cellulose, Guar Gum, Flax Meal, Minerals (Salt, Ferrous Sulphate, Zinc Oxide, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Sulphate, Manganous Oxide, Copper Proteinate, Calcium Iodate and Organic Selenium), Dextrose, Potassium Citrate, Fructo-Oligosaccharides, High Chromium Yeast, Vitamins (Vitamin E, Vitamin C, Choline Chloride, Inositol, Beta-Carotene, Thiamine Mononitrate, Niacin, Biotin, Vitamin A Acetate, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin B12, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Vitamin D3 and Folic Acid), L-Carnitine and L-Glutamine.


Cellulose - Cellulose gum is a chemically treated polymer used by some pet food manufacturers as a thickener in canned food products. Natura uses gums derived from natural sources such as guar gum and locust bean gum. Both of these ingredients come from seeds in the legume family.

Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex - also know as Vitamin K3 is the synthetic version of vitamin K. It is not approved for human consumption and is controversial for long term use such as in pet food. It has been linked to many serious health issues.

danam314
November 6th, 2008, 03:02 PM
Wonderful information. Thank you! Do you know off hand if stores like Pet Planet or Tailblazers carry the California Natural Formulas?

I'm not sure which my vet is going to suggest. She is very pro-natural and pro-raw. We want to put Koda on raw eventually but maybe not until we get a few issues figured out (I already bought the raw :laughing: )

Is California Natural the brand name? Is there a specific canned 'flavor' that is better than another? We're trying to cut out chicken because we think it's the cause of the itchy skin. The dermatologist suggested cutting out chicken for 6 week and watching how he is (itchy or not) before we start allergy tests.

Thank you!

rainbow
November 6th, 2008, 03:13 PM
No, they also make Lamb & Brown Rice and Salmon & Sweet Potato formulas....

http://www.californianaturalpet.com/search/


Here's the Edmonton store locator....

http://www.californianaturalpet.com/where-to-buy/default.asp


Glad to hear that your vet is pro-natural and pro-raw. :thumbs up Those vets are few and far between. :sad:

danam314
November 6th, 2008, 04:16 PM
Wow, just perfect. It's sold at all 3 pet stores that I use!!!

Thank you again for all of the info and help. It's really appreciated :highfive:

rainbow
November 6th, 2008, 04:39 PM
You are more than welcome. I hope that you find something Koda will enjoy and that he continues to improve. :fingerscr Please keep us updated. :goodvibes:

danam314
November 7th, 2008, 06:55 PM
Just another quick update. Today we bought the California Natural Lamb & Rice KIBBLES and HE ATE THEM!!!! ALL of them!!!!!

Sorry, I'm just so excited. He has not touched kibble in quite some time. Yippee!!!

Thanks rainbow!! :thumbs up:dog:

rainbow
November 7th, 2008, 07:01 PM
WOOO HOOO......I am so happy to hear that. :thumbs up

GOOD BOY KODA !!! :highfive:

Maybe he was scared you were going to continue feeding him green beans. :laughing:

geisha
November 7th, 2008, 09:29 PM
G & E Pharmacy on Whyte Ave and 75 Street has California Natural at decent prices. Global Pet Foods @ Collingwood Shopping Center stocks California Natural as well. :thumbs up

danam314
November 7th, 2008, 10:50 PM
Thank you so much!! We bought a small (5lb) bag from Tailblazers for $13.99. Is that high or average? We didn't want to get a big bag in case he didn't like it. Made that mistake a few times.... :loser:

Yes, I think he was terrified of the green veggies!!! :laughing: :laughing:

rainbow
November 7th, 2008, 11:18 PM
I always buy the large bags of Orijen but do try to watch prices on the other brands. The last time I looked most of them were around $16 to $18 for the smaller bags here but AB has better prices than BC.

Geisha will be able to give you better information or else you can phone the stores she mentioned and ask what they charge:

EDMONTON

G & E PHARMACY
7326 - 82 Avenue, Edmonton, Alberta
Phone: ( 780 ) 469-7667

GLOBAL PET FOODS
227, 6655 - 178 Street, Edmonton, Alberta
Phone: ( 780 ) 481-3347

GLOBAL PET FOODS
2027A - 111 Street, Edmonton, Alberta
Phone: ( 780 ) 989-8813

geisha
November 8th, 2008, 11:05 AM
That's a great price!!!. If you continue to buy California Natural ask about the buy 10 get 1 free promo. This is a great deal especially if you buy the bigger bags. This is available at G & E and Global. I'm not sure about Tailblazers.

danam314
November 8th, 2008, 01:14 PM
Gah! This morning I was so excited to feed him. I got him his kibbles and put the bowl on his placemat.... and nothing. He didn't want the kibbles :wall: :wall:

I mixed in some canned food with the kibbles, with some pumpkin and yogurt. He licked it all up - minus the kibbles :sad: :confused: :cry:

rainbow
November 8th, 2008, 03:37 PM
OH NO !!! :sad: :grouphug:

If he wasn't diabetic I would be inclined to just leave the kibble down for him for 20 minutes then take it away. It sounds like he's starting to realize that he knows he can get what he wants. I've never had a dog with diabetes....how long can you with hold food from him? :o

Would a treat dispensing ball interest him at all? Maybe if the kibble is in there it will be more of a game to him. :shrug:

Or, could you try pulverizing the kibble in a food processor or blender and mixing it in with the canned/yogurt/pumpkin combo? :shrug:

I can't think of anything else to do other than home cooking or raw. :o

Your vet may have some suggestions since she is pro natural and pro raw. Or there are other members here that may have some good suggestions.

Good luck. :fingerscr :goodvibes:

danam314
November 8th, 2008, 03:49 PM
Before he was diagnosed with diabetes I always left the food down for about 20 mins and then took away whatever was left. He learned quickly that he had better eat up! But, now that's not an option :frustrated:

Right now, because he's still kinda fragile from the ketacidosis, they said if he skips even 1 meal I have to bring him in. I'm very frustrated on what to do, to be honest. I feel that I have tried just about everything, although I'm sure someone will think of something I haven't. I even went to the point of putting his food in a Ziploc and pounding the :censored: out of it with a hammer so it was like dust. I added it to his food and nada... he wouldn't eat it. He's just too smart!! :wall: Maybe I will keep up with the canned/cooked diet right now and use kibbles as treats? Maybe that will excite him.

I wish there was a rewind button to fix all this :laughing:

geisha
November 8th, 2008, 04:02 PM
Have you tried soaking the kibble in warm water for a few minutes before serving? We've also tried adding a few squirts of salmon oil *(great for the coat) and saltfree chicken broth. :lightbulb:

rainbow
November 8th, 2008, 04:07 PM
I would try the kibble as treats option. Do you have a treat dispensing ball?

Have you read any suggestions from any of the forums specifically for dogs with diabetes?

rainbow
November 8th, 2008, 04:19 PM
Maybe you'll find some ideas from the groups suggested here :shrug: ....

http://www.caninediabetes.org/maillists.html

danam314
November 8th, 2008, 07:15 PM
Do you have a treat dispensing ball?

We have a Kong, but it's kinda cruel to give it to him right now. He has to wear a cone collar at all times, unless he is eating meals. He has a sore on his back foot from chewing, and I can't watch him 24/7. He even laid on his back to rub his foot on the corner of our coffee table while I was preparing his dinner once, making it bleed everywhere. He has tried to play with his toys but he can't use his paws because of the cone :sad: I have tried to take the cone off for him to play a bit, but the second it comes off he goes for his foot.

Have you tried soaking the kibble in warm water for a few minutes before serving? We've also tried adding a few squirts of salmon oil *(great for the coat) and saltfree chicken broth. :lightbulb:

I did try soaking the kibble in a number of things. Water, tuna juice, low sodium beef broth (he can't have chicken), juice from canned foods, etc. I made him a whole crock pot of stew and soaked it in those juices. I cooked up eggs and cottage cheese and let the kibbles simmer with some broth in there. I even put kibbles in a Tupperware a few times and left it in the fridge over night so it was mush. He wouldn't eat it. About 1/2 the time I have tried to heat it up to get the aromas going. Nada.

It's not a secret that he is just being stubborn, but unfortunately because of the diabetes I can't wait long before I give in, which has throw his training right out the window :wall: I don't think it's an issue of not liking the food, it's an issue of he knows something better will come if he waits. Which is more than frustrating :frustrated:

I really, really, REALLY do appreciate the suggestions. There has to be 1 that will work eventually!!

rainbow
November 8th, 2008, 07:32 PM
Poor Koda :grouphug: and poor you. :grouphug:

Do you think the Pro Collar would be a better option for Koda?

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=55693

Most dogs hate the cone so maybe it's having an effect on his food interests. :shrug:

sugarcatmom
November 8th, 2008, 07:36 PM
He'll still eat canned and home made food, right? If so, then I wouldn't stress about the kibble part. Dry food is really just a human convenience more than anything, it isn't actually better for him. If you're worried about how nutritionally balanced his meals are, there are some good websites to check out:
http://www.caberfeidh.com/NaturalDiet.htm
http://www.rawfed.com/
http://www.rawmeatybones.com/petowners/feedyourdogrmb.php

Are you still testing his urine for ketones? How's the blood glucose testing going?

danam314
November 8th, 2008, 08:21 PM
Thanks guys!

rainbow - I'm going to look into the pro collar. I'll have to see exactly how it works because right now he's not wearing his regular collar because of the marks from the IV in his neck, they said to keep it off till it heals completely. I saw that it connects to his regular collar, but maybe there is another way.

sugarcatmom - Yes, right now Koda is eating 1 can of dog food, some rice with pumpkin and yogurt mixed in. We're totally cutting out chicken. Sometimes I add some ground beef. The vet said she was worried about not giving him kibbles because of the risk of tooth decay. Is this a reasonable concern? She said she is fine with a mixture of kibble, canned and home made, but she does want him eating SOME kibble.

I tested Koda for ketones today. It was negative :thumbs up

I have been testing his glucose around the clock every 4 hours. His high is around 31 and low is around 10. The vet said it will go up and down, depending on time of day and when he got his food and insulin, but the 10-31 range is a bit too much for her liking. She said it will be at its lowest between 5-7 hours from feeding/insulin time, and then start to rise again. We changed his insulin on Wed to Caninsulin and to 15 units 2x a day. Today his glucose went from 29 @ 5am, to 26 @ 9am (breakfast and insulin time) and then at noon it said it was too high to give a reading!! I called the vet asap and she said to continue monitoring it tonight and thru the night, and if it doesn't start going down we have to come in tomorrow (Sunday). So, we'll see....

Thank you for the links. I'll read up and do my homework!!

hazelrunpack
November 8th, 2008, 09:29 PM
Kibble really doesn't do much to clean a dog's teeth. A better option for dental health is brushing their teeth with an enzymatic toothpaste. I do our 8 every day and they love it--the toothpaste is C.E.T. poultry flavored and they consider it a treat. :D So if he'll allow you to put a fingerbrush or a toothbrush in his mouth, that would be a better option for keeping his pearly whites shiny! :thumbs up (Plus the poultry flavored toothpaste has no sugars in it!)

danam314
November 10th, 2008, 06:29 PM
Thank you so much. I feel better about not feeding him any or as much kibble.
He has been eating about 1 cup of kibble a day now. We give it to him before his 'real' dinner, and so he thinks that is all he gets :laughing::D
When he eats it he gets his meat.

Quick question, I feel that I already know the answer to this but just in case.... Can I give Koda raw beef liver? There was a sale at the store today so I picked up a small amount. I'm hoping I don't have to cook it because I can't stand the smell! Should I give him a few pieces a day (it came in stir fry sized strips)? Or all at once?

I was trying to be sneaky and took a few pics of him *begging* for food mid day today :laughing: You can just see him going "Mommy.... Pwweeeeeeaaaaassseee!!" LOL

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/DanaMiller/106_3746.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/DanaMiller/106_3744.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/DanaMiller/106_3745.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/DanaMiller/106_3747-1.jpg

rainbow
November 10th, 2008, 06:39 PM
OMG...those pics are priceless. :cloud9: Koda sure knows how to tug on your heartstrings. :D

In answer to your question....yes, you can feed the liver raw. Glad he's still eating. :thumbs up

danam314
November 14th, 2008, 11:28 PM
Hi again. Just wanted to update you.
Koda starting throwing up again. This started on Tuesday night/Wednesday morning. I woke up to a pile of vomit on the floor. He seemed a bit mopey, not as much energy. I tested his blood sugar and it's going down to about 14.5 in the day so the vet upped it another 2 units (now at 18 units 2x a day). He is negative for ketones still :thumbs up . That is always worrying me now, seeing what we went through with the ketoacidosis. He seems to have less energy than last week and he is sleeping a lot! He is peeing/pooping/drinking and eating as normal.

The vet thought maybe it was the yogurt that was upsetting his tummy, because of the milk, so I stopped giving that with his meal. However, he still threw up yesterday after he ate (no yogurt), and again this morning (no yogurt). Our vet isn't in until Monday and I'm stumped :confused:

Any ideas?

geisha
November 15th, 2008, 06:57 PM
:grouphug:for you and Koda that his diabetes is regulated soon. I hope I'm not overstepping however did Koda have liver enzymes drawn too?

danam314
November 15th, 2008, 07:44 PM
No, not over stepping at all. If things were at all personal I wouldn't post them for all to read ;) The more responses the merrier!

Koda had a complete liver panel done, as well as an ultra sound. They even took a small biopsy with a needle to check for any hidden liver problems. Everything came back normal.