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Unpredictable biter

blaster1985
October 22nd, 2008, 06:36 PM
First off, when we adopted our dog three months ago, we were told we were adopting a German Shorthaired Pointer. Now we believe she's actually a Blue Tick Coonhound. From searching online through pics and temperment description, we are almost certain. In the last two weeks she has bitten two people, who were mercifully, not hurt badly and were extremely good sports about it. We feel terrible that this has happened. My wife, initially wanted to send her packing back to where she came from, but I refused. I want to work with my dog to prevent this from ever happening again, but my wife doesn't like the idea of living with the fear it co uld happen in the future. This is causing somewhat of a rift between us, but I'm optimistic in resolving this problem together. A local trainer has quoted me a price of between 450. and 550. dollars for training, which is a bit steep for us. I have been looking online for a course at a reasonable price; I got burned the first time when the course I purchased turned out to be bogus. I am now looking at one by Chet Womach; is anyone familiar with him or can you recommend a good one? What have you done with a dog that has bitten? I don't feel we should give up on her so quickly; I've grown attatched to her but, obviously, I don't want her injuring someone again. Thanks, Mike:ca:

babymomma
October 22nd, 2008, 06:38 PM
Sorry i have no advice, but i wish you the best of luck with your dog :goodvibes:

happycats
October 22nd, 2008, 06:50 PM
I am so happy you are giving this sweet guy another chance!!:thumbs up

there must be a reason, or cause for his biting, reading a dogs boy language can be difficult, but there are subtle signs, and you have to pay very close attention to find out whats setting him off.

I personally swear by cesar Milan, his methods are tried and true, every one of the techniques I have used on my dog have been successful.

Here's his website http://www.cesarmillaninc.com/
He has books, DVD's and best of all his own TV show which is on every night on the national geographic channel.

Be a calm assertive leader. excercise discipline then affection, in that order:)

blaster1985
October 22nd, 2008, 07:15 PM
We enjoy his show daily; I get his definition of exercise, discipline and affection and that a dog that bites, sees himself as the pack leader and could also be frustrated and under exercised. I can say that my dog is getting about all the exercise we can throw at her and it's still probably not enough. It's not like we can suddenly give up our entire lives to cater strictly to her needs. We will get to the bottom of this eventually; hopefully sooner than later!

luckypenny
October 22nd, 2008, 07:19 PM
I answered in your other thread a few days ago http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=57567 . Did you get a chance to look at the links? Perhaps you can see if the trainer is a member of CAPPDT :shrug:. You got a lot of great advice in the very first thread you posted as well. Did you try any of the suggestions?

mona_b
October 22nd, 2008, 08:17 PM
I answered your other thread also.


and that a dog that bites, sees himself as the pack leader and could also be frustrated and under exercised.

Sorry,but I don't agree with this statement at all.

A dog bites,but not for those reasons.

They will bite out of fear/threatened,or protection.This could mean proctecting thier owners,or their property.The fear can come from a stranger(someone they don't know and they haven't been socialized)...They can bite

My dog has bitten many times.But the difference with him is that it was part of his job.And it was more of a "hold" then a bite.And if buddy wanted to wiggle/kick out of my dogs hold,then yes he would get bitten.

luckypenny
October 22nd, 2008, 08:30 PM
The fear can come from a stranger(someone they don't know and they haven't been socialized)...They can bite

Given the info we have on this dog, this sounds like the issue in this case. Do you know anything of your dog's history, blaster1985?

I know Cesar's very popular but please be careful if you attempt things you've seen on a tv show. He has disclaimers warning folks not to try many of his manoeuvers without consulting first a vet to rule out any medical issues (that may be the root of some aggression) and professional experienced behaviorists first. Take heed as you can do more damage than good.

http://www.cesarmillaninc.com/dpcla/referrals.php

mona_b
October 22nd, 2008, 09:22 PM
Going by his other thread I agree LP.



I'm not crazy about this Cesar guy.Sorry,that's just me.

Even from top trainers,I have never heard them ever saying a dog bites cause he is frustrated or under exercised.

blaster,you have two threads going.I think I'm going to get dizzy answering both.LOL

clm
October 22nd, 2008, 09:44 PM
I personally love Ceasar, but a dog that has bitten twice doesn't require home training, he requires professional training. Find yourself a reputable trainer and get it sorted out.

Cindy

kandy
October 23rd, 2008, 01:14 PM
IMO dogs are very rarely 'unpredictable biters'. My son has a SharPei, and while she has never bitten anyone, she does occassionally growl at people. I've observed her behavior closely and found common patterns in each instance of her growling at someone. I can predict with a good degree of accuracy whether she will growl at someone new or not. I also instruct people who want to pet her on how to pet her as she does not like people to try to pet the top of her head (she has very small eyes and does not see well, especially from that angle) - she also will growl if someone tries to pet her belly without her offering her belly for petting (they try to reach under her). I agree that you probably need professional help in this, but I also think that if you pay attention to your dogs body language, you will be able to more readily gauge his emotional state.

You said that the one bite happened with someone that came into your yard. Were you also in the yard? I didn't see a description of the other incident. Were both of the people bitten strangers to your dog? Do they possess similar physical characteristics? Were they exhibiting similar behaviors just prior to the bite?

I would caution you against using any extreme method of establishing your dominance based on Cesar Milan's methods. For a dog that may be aggressive, doing an alpha roll or some other similar technique, could get you bit. I much prefer the training methods of Victoria Stilwell.

BenMax
October 23rd, 2008, 01:25 PM
Going by his other thread I agree LP.



I'm not crazy about this Cesar guy.Sorry,that's just me.

Even from top trainers,I have never heard them ever saying a dog bites cause he is frustrated or under exercised.

blaster,you have two threads going.I think I'm going to get dizzy answering both.LOL

Please do not take offence - but 'top' trainers have never heard of this?? I have to tell you that a lot of these problems do arise from frustrated dogs. There are different reasons as to why of course and some are breed related - by which I mean - whatever they were bred to do and denied of doing may cause certain behaviours such as biting which is out of frustration.

Many people down Caeser - but I have to tell you - the guy has 'GOT IT'. So many trainers deny him only due to the fact that they missed the boat.

happycats
October 23rd, 2008, 01:50 PM
Please do not take offence - but 'top' trainers have never heard of this?? I have to tell you that a lot of these problems do arise from frustrated dogs. There are different reasons as to why of course and some are breed related - by which I mean - whatever they were bred to do and denied of doing may cause certain behaviours such as biting which is out of frustration.

Many people down Caeser - but I have to tell you - the guy has 'GOT IT'. So many trainers deny him only due to the fact that they missed the boat.

I have watched and read many dog training techniques, and by far I think Cesar is the best, not because others don't get the same results sometimes, but because he seems to understand dogs, and is able to read their body language better then anyone else.

Cesar is great :) I use his methods, and they always work. It is a 24/7 job, to be your dogs pack leader.

mona_b
October 23rd, 2008, 08:31 PM
Read his other thread.

He states that an invited guest came into the yard.The dog came out of the house and started to circle this person and was barking.Then the dog bit.The second bite was at another house.This dog also goes barking at people as he bolts for the fence.

And I'm thinking this is the reason that this dog was brought to the rescue.

This dog has not had the propper training.IF she did,she would not be doing the things she is doing.It had nothing to do with being frustrated(in my eyes)..It's the training and not being properly socialized.

My cousin adopted an English Pointer a couple of years back.Her dog does not act this way at all.

I've raised GSD's.Not one ever barked and tried to bolt to get to someone.With my current,I can sit out front with him and he watches people go by.No barking or growling.

Not offended at all.:)..I stand by what I said about the top trainers.Even the Canine Unit trainers.I've even searched this years ago,and not one search came to this conclusion.And I can't tell you how many times I've gone to a call where a dog wanted to rip me apart.

And no I don't want to start a war on here either.:)

Mike,,you need to have your girl assests by a behaviourist.Or at least talk to one in your area and explain what is happening.And they will come to your home.

Where abouts are you located?

blaster1985
October 24th, 2008, 12:13 PM
We are located about 30 minuted outside Montreal. I believe this dog is very intelligent and has not had the benefit of proper training. We adopted her from someone who had rescued her 10 months prior. She was found tied up to a picknik table and was in prettiy rough shape physically. Nothing else is known about her. Trainers in my area are quite pricey; I'm looking at some basic online courses to begin with and take it from there. I'll do all I can to turn this wonderful dog into a well trained one.

BenMax
October 24th, 2008, 12:17 PM
I have a solution. Please contact the rescue group and see if they can help with recommendations on a trainer. They will remember the dog in question I am certain.

kandy
October 24th, 2008, 12:22 PM
You have to wonder what she went through. Poor girl. She probably has very good reason to be wary of strangers or even humans in general.

I'd make sure that she's never given the opportunity to bite by keeping her on a short leash whenever you are expecting visitors. Did the person you got her from have any of these kinds of problems with her? It could be that she is not sure of your ability to protect her, or feels the need to protect you. Were you in the yard when the one incident occurred? Is she aggressive towards all people, or just strangers, or just specific people?

She will need constant supervision when others are around or the consequences of another bite could be very bad for her.

mona_b
October 24th, 2008, 07:06 PM
Awwwww poor baby...:sad:

I was wondering also if she is aggressive with all strangers.When you take her for a walk,does she try and go after people?

Why did the prior owners give her up?

I know alot of questions,it just helps us more...:)

Have you tried my suggestion I posted in your other thread?Bing out front with her while she is on her leash?

Also,to whoever can answer.:D

You adopt a dog.The dog doesn't work out.Are you not supposed to return the dog back to the shelter?Can you get in trouble for adopting the dog out to someone else?

I have always wondered this.

blaster1985
October 24th, 2008, 08:08 PM
My wife has tried your idea of being in the yard with the dog on a leash with some success. Even off leash in the yard, she is much better than when she is alone. The front of our fenced in property can be busy; we are on the corner and it's a small college town. She only barks when people are passing in the front; strange, the front gate seems to be hers. We adopted her from the person who rescued her; she didn't keep her because she is a breeder of dauchands and had her hands full with that. I really appreciate everyone's input and I must say, we want to do right by her and give her a good life, without rising anyone's safety.

mona_b
October 24th, 2008, 08:24 PM
Seems like she had no direction in the past.This is where you and your wife can do that for her.;)

Good to hear that there is some success.Just remember,no leaving her outside alone(your dog that is:laughing:)

It's good that a dog gives off a warning.But they shouldn't have to bark at everyone passing by.When she barks,you can give her the"no bark" command or the "enough" command.I used this one with my dogs.

Which ever one you give,after you give it wait a minute,if she doesn't bark,then praise like crazy.This may take a few tries since it's a new command.I always like to say the dogs name before the command.This way they know you are talking to them.:)

This will take some time and patience.Sounds like she has been through alot the poor girl.

By the way,what is her name?Any picks?

There is a difference in these breeds.

luckypenny
October 24th, 2008, 09:12 PM
If you're willing to invest about 50$, I would very strongly recommend this book. It reads like a workbook, is easy to understand, and is the best investment I've made (in addition to our behaviorist) in regards to one of our dogs who used to be extremely reactive.

AGGRESSION IN DOGS: PRACTICAL MANAGEMENT PREVENTION & BEHAVIOUR MODIFICATION by Brenda Aloff. You can order it at www.dogwise.com .

Here's what it says on this website: http://brendaaloff.com/booksdvds.asp

For anyone who wants to know more about aggression or dog behavior. Does not just discuss aggression. It describes in great detail protocols to use for behavior modification. Starting with prevention, the reader learns about common mistakes owners make to promote aggression in their dog, and how to avoid these mistakes. In the behavior modification section, you will learn about how to build trust with the dog, using positive reinforcement. Shows how to achieve this level of trust with hundreds of exercises to promote appropriate behavior and modify inappropriate behavior. In the practical management section, the reader is prepared for a lifelong regimen of keeping his dog safe. Price: $49.95

What reviewers are saying...

DOG WORLD
“This book is based on the notion that many dogs display aggression because they are “uneducated,” writes dog trainer Brenda Aloff, who specializes in problem behavior. “This is a dog who, for whatever reason, never learned how to communicate in a appropriate and effective manner to humans and /or other dogs.” The author feels that by educating aggressive dogs, and teaching them new ways of behaving in social situations, they can be helped. But, she cautions, these dogs are best worked with positive methods, which is the book’s focus. Written for the owner of a problem dog, the book explores theory and offers step-by-step protocols, real “nuts-and bolts, roll-up-your sleeves” stuff, as she puts it, “that is field-proven in modifying aggressive behavior in dogs.” Aloff helps the reader understand aggression in dogs and canine communication. She discusses types of aggression, learning theory, equipment, management, and damage control. She gets into the specific procedures and detailed instructions for dealing with aggression. The techniques are illustrated with instructional photographs. The book ends with 20 pages of real-life case studies of aggression. This book could be a lifeline to the owner of an aggressive dog. Aloff is a clear and patient communicator and the encyclopedic book is full of information. While the $49.95 price tag may seem steep, the book is large—8 inches with more than 400 pages. The committed owner of an aggressive dog will find it money well spent.

I highlighted the sentence in red to point out that this is not an exaggeration. These are the methods we use with the most success with our dogs. I hope you can get a copy of it :fingerscr. It's the nest best thing to having a behaviorist experienced with aggression work with you.

kandy
October 27th, 2008, 12:55 PM
Even off leash in the yard, she is much better than when she is alone.

Your dog is doing what she sees as her "job" - defending her territory. Your dog will not know who has been invited into your yard and who is trespassing - in her mind, they are all trespassing. She barks at people passing by to warn them that they are close to her territory. I would never, under any circumstances, leave the dog unattended in the front yard. All it would take is for some college kid to reach over the fence to pet the dog, and then if he gets bit, it will be the dog that pays the price.