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Should I get my dog spayed??????

bmxman
October 12th, 2008, 10:18 PM
So I have always been told that spaying has tons of benefits and virtually no drawbacks. I want to get my puppy spayed but my wife is against it. I have been searching for info on the subject but Im always willing to read more.

I want to present all the info I will be gathering to my wife and hope we can come to an agreement. If anyone has an real info I would appreciate your input. I would really like to hear from folks who have some solid information and not just I heard this or I heard that. thanks in advance...D

So far on this site I have found this:
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=54955&highlight=spaying

Longblades
October 12th, 2008, 10:29 PM
no drawbacks Many pieces of veterinary research exist to show that is absolutely untrue. Spaying (and neutering) has risks and benefits as does virtually any operation. The trick is deciding which are the more important for you and your dog in the situation you live in.

Here are some links that may help guide you to the decision that is right for you. When I went through this I disussed these articles with my Vet.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/pdf/10.2460/javma.231.11.1665

Below is an excerpt from the last link. I urge you to read the whole link.

Advantages of spay or neuter

• Eliminates risk of testicular cancer (most are benign in behaviour)
• Reduces risk of mammary cancer (if performed before 2.5 years of age)
• Reduces risk of pyometra (uterine infection)
• Eliminates risk of uterine tumours (given uterus is removed)
• Eliminates risk of ovarian cancer
• Reduces risk of prostatic hyperplasia and inflammation
• Reduces risk of benign perianal tumours in dogs
• Reduces urine marking, mounting. May reduce roaming

Disadvantages of spay or neuter

• Decreased life span
• Increases risk of urinary incontinence (in both bitches and dogs)
• Increases risk of obesity
• Increases risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer)
• Increases risk of prostatic cancer
• Increases risk of bladder cancer
• Increases risk of cardiac haemangiosarcoma
• Increases risk of splenic haemangiosarcoma in spayed bitches
• Increases risk of cholangiocarcinoma (cancer of bile ducts) in spayed bitches
• Increases risk of cranial cruciate ligament injury
• Increases risk of patellar luxation in small- and medium-sized dogs
• Increases risk of adverse vaccine reactions
• Increases risk of myasthenia gravis in spayed bitches
• Increases risk of pancreatitis in spayed bitches
• Increases risk of aggression, fearfulness
• Increases cognitive impairment in aged dogs already showing signs of disease
• Increases risk of benign perianal tumours in spayed bitches
• Increases risk of peri-vulvar dermatitis, vaginitis, cystitis and recurrent urinary tract infections in early-age spayed bitches



http://users.lavalink.com.au/theos/Spay-neuter.htm#vacc

Frenchy
October 12th, 2008, 10:54 PM
So far on this site I have found this:
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=54955&highlight=spaying

Please read post #8 , from 14+kitties.

happycats
October 12th, 2008, 10:57 PM
What's your wife's reason/s for not wanting to get your pup spayed ?

LavenderRott
October 12th, 2008, 11:06 PM
Wow. With a list like that it is a wonder that the AVMA allows vets to perform spays and neuters!

This was also taken from the second link:

As an example, consider a discussion between a
veterinarian and the owner of an 8-week-old female
Labrador Retriever that is not intended for breeding.
This dog would benefit greatly from OHE before her
first estrus as a means of preventing mammary gland
tumors, which are extremely common and cause substantial
morbidity (Table 3). Because of her breed, detriments
of OHE include an increased predisposition to
CCL injury, hemangiosarcoma, and obesity. However,
there is a low incidence of hemangiosarcoma, and obesity
can be readily controlled with good husbandry,
which leaves CCL injury as the most important possible
detriment. Because the incidence of CCL rupture is
lower than that of mammary gland neoplasia, a veterinarian
may choose to recommend OHE and educate the
owner about maintenance of optimal body condition
and other management techniques that will minimize
potential for CCL injury. An OHE should be performed
before the dog’s first estrus. To minimize the potential
for development of urinary incontinence, the veterinarian
may choose to wait to perform the OHE until after
the dog has reached 3 months of age.

Schwinn
October 12th, 2008, 11:23 PM
I would argue that that list is probably made up of mostly rare instances...both the advantages and disadvantages. Except for the issue of "roaming". I truly believe that an unspayed or neutered dog will go looking for...uh, amore, if you will...canine booty call, as it were.

Usually we always argue why a dog should be spayed or neutered, but I guess the bigger question is...why not? In my mind, unless you are an experienced breeder (I'm not going to get into what this is, because there are plenty of threads out there about it), why take the chance? Accidents happen, this avoids it. And, even if you are careful, unless you are keeping the dog in the house at all times, do you really want to have to worry about some other irresponsible owner who isn't being careful?

14+kitties
October 12th, 2008, 11:25 PM
Should you get her spayed? YES!YES!YES!!!!! No question about it. That's like saying Should I have a shower today. Are your cats fixed?

Why is your wife against it? Does she want to breed the pup? Or show her? Is there any logical reason for her to not want to spay the pup? If she knew that she could potentially save the puppy from potentially contracting very serious illness' by one simple operation would she do it?


Just as an offside... it's amazing to me that one certain poster only shows up when there is trouble to be caused. This poster knows this is a pro spay/neuter board and still continues to post what I consider to be very highly charged posts in order to spread their propaganda and to start arguments. While I agree that not all surgeries are 100% risk free the pros for spaying far outweigh the cons IMO.

Frenchy
October 12th, 2008, 11:32 PM
the pros for spaying far outweigh the cons IMO.

You bet 14+ :thumbs up , I thought that list was pretty lame ..... like there's more cons than pros ??!!! Gimme a break !

hazelrunpack
October 12th, 2008, 11:41 PM
I would argue that that list is probably made up of mostly rare instances...both the advantages and disadvantages. Except for the issue of "roaming". I truly believe that an unspayed or neutered dog will go looking for...uh, amore, if you will...canine booty call, as it were.

Usually we always argue why a dog should be spayed or neutered, but I guess the bigger question is...why not? In my mind, unless you are an experienced breeder (I'm not going to get into what this is, because there are plenty of threads out there about it), why take the chance? Accidents happen, this avoids it. And, even if you are careful, unless you are keeping the dog in the house at all times, do you really want to have to worry about some other irresponsible owner who isn't being careful?

I have to disagree...we've had a dog die of hemangiosarcoma. We've have dogs with early onset hypothyroidism. When we did the research, we also found the links and since then have delayed the neuter/spays of our subsequent dogs.

This is not trite information--it is fact that has to be weighed when someone makes the decision to spay/neuter. Each owner has to make his or her own decision and it should be based on facts. I am in favor of spay/neuter, but if someone tries to balance pros and cons by delaying the surgery for a year or two, as long as they are responsible and prevent unwanted litters, I see no problem with it.

Spay/neuter is promoted for very young dogs because many owners are not responsible enough to prevent unwanted litters. But that doesn't mean that it's the necessary choice for everyone. :shrug:

14+kitties
October 12th, 2008, 11:47 PM
Seems to me in reading the one site that things have been pulled out of it to make it look like s/n is a bad thing. Only partial sentences so it looks a lot worse than the studies show it to be. The ones I found the percentages were very very small and there were other factors involved.
Mind you, I did skim quickly. I will go back and read it when I find some time and have the inclination to possibly want to add to our already burgeoning pet population. :rolleyes:

hazelrunpack
October 13th, 2008, 01:37 AM
The way I look at it, if you are thinking about elective surgery on, say, your child, you'd want to know all the risks/benefits and try to get a feel for frequency of complications resulting from that surgery, wouldn't you? You can't ethically withhold medical information on the chance that someone will misuse that information. Responsible people need to be able to weigh all the facts to make an informed decision.

Irresponsible people will likely not do the research in the first place. :shrug:

We have never been responsible for a litter although we do not spay/neuter at or before 6 months of age. So in our case, at least, the decision to delay the surgeries has been a good one. And we feel that by delaying, we've gotten the best of both worlds by minimizing the risks on both sides of the equation.

The OP has to look at his situation and the risks and benefits most applicable to his dog and take it from there. But to do that, he needs to know all the available information. And in that capacity, Longblades' information is a service.

Just my :2cents:.

bmxman
October 13th, 2008, 02:25 AM
Are your cats fixed?

Why is your wife against it? Does she want to breed the pup? Or show her? Is there any logical reason for her to not want to spay the pup? .

yes my cats are fixed but I got them before my wife and I were married. Her basic reasoning is the dog shouldn't be spayed just for our own convenience. The dog was born with reproductive organs so who are we to remove them? I was just always told it's better for the animal involved but there is a lot of conflicting info out there...I'm still reading as much as I can about it.:candle:

bmxman
October 13th, 2008, 02:29 AM
The way I look at it, if you are thinking about elective surgery on, say, your child, you'd want to know all the risks/benefits and try to get a feel for frequency of complications resulting from that surgery, wouldn't you?

That's exactly my thoughts...I consider my dog a member of my family and I'm responsible for her just like my wife and son. I'm taking this very seriously and plan to find out as much info as I can.

Shaykeija
October 13th, 2008, 01:12 PM
Just wait until your pet goes through a false pregnancy. Not fun. They whine and carry stuffies around and is extremely emotionally hard on then. Spay your baby.

BenMax
October 13th, 2008, 01:33 PM
Longblades - after reading the list provided in regards to spay and neutering -it appears that there are more risks than benefits? Why then would I ever want to alter any of my pets?

So I guess that shelters and rescues would want to do what is best for animals and according to the list it would be to NOT sterilize an animal? I find this very damaging information and I would seriously consider this source of information. I have a feeling that the list of 'risks' is based on isolated incidents or lack of real data such as 'shortening of lifespan' if an animal is altered. Then again, one of the benefits of altering is to prevent testicular cancer....but then by not neutering we go back to 'lifespan' - which in this case is shortening it due to not neutering....

I am very curious our forum's vet would think of this.

ancientgirl
October 13th, 2008, 01:50 PM
I've had all my cats spayed/neutered. Seeing as cancer was my biggest worry, it was an easy decision. I understand how your wife sees it, but your dog doesn't know it has reproductive organs, at least not this second. Wait until she goes into her first heat, then tell me your wife still doesn't want to spay her.

I don't know how different it is for a dog, but one of my kittens went into heat a few days before her scheduled spay, and let me tell you, I cursed the day I didn't get her spayed sooner. She spent a very unpleasant week. I'm happy she doesn't have to go through that every few months anymore.

onster
October 13th, 2008, 02:05 PM
Spaying and neutering is definately a must when you are not an experienced breeder. However, I agree with hazel that timing of the procedure is really based on many factors. I for one had Bunduk (my male cat) neutered early because I had another male cat at home at the time and I didn't want fights/spraying to occur, also my brother was getting married that summer so I wanted to get it done sooner so that I could have more time to watch him post-op.

However, I do see the benefits of waiting. I know many people that want their dogs to be in agility wait for their dogs to be neutered so that the testosterone can kick in for drive / for bone developement (or something like that). Looking at Bunduk ( or any other male cat -dont know about dogs- that has been neutered early) I can tell that he has been neutered at an early age. His face is less round/ he seems more delicately framed. I have seen this with many other cats. That being said, does it affect me at all? No. Would I still go with an early neuter, yes.

I think its evident that since the poster is asking and researching, they are a responsible owner. If theyre willing to go through the inconvenience of a responsible late spay = no pregnancy, then well why not? The important thing is that there is no unwanted litters and they do spay/neuter eventually.

hazelrunpack
October 13th, 2008, 02:09 PM
yes my cats are fixed but I got them before my wife and I were married. Her basic reasoning is the dog shouldn't be spayed just for our own convenience. The dog was born with reproductive organs so who are we to remove them? I was just always told it's better for the animal involved but there is a lot of conflicting info out there...I'm still reading as much as I can about it.:candle:

Shaykeija is right--your wife may change her mind after the first heat and false pregnancy. :o

The main reason for early spay/neuter, and this is why the shelters should continue to do them, BenMax, is to prevent more unwanted litters and health problems in the adult dog. And bmxman, there are risks inherent in keeping a female intact.

We adopted three of our girls together, intact (we knew the rescuer well and to save her the cost, we did the spays). All of them were over 18 months of age and well past the age at which we feel comfortable having them spayed. We scheduled them one at a time and while the first was recovering from her spay, the other two ended up going into heat. Of those two, one went into false pregnancy and the other developed a uterine infection and required antibiotics before her spay. So there are very common and significant risks to keeping a dog intact.

That being said though, we did do some research after losing a dog to hemangiosarcoma and having dogs develop hypothyroidism early in life. (These dogs were spayed/neutered at about 6 months of age as is usually recommended.) We found literature (back then there was no internet to search :D) linking a number of medical problems to early spay/neuter. Since then, we have delayed spay/neuter of our subsequent dogs to try to get the best of both worlds.

It's a balancing act. Depending on your situation, you may be able to hold off on the surgery, but we believe the long-term benefits of spaying and neutering still outweigh the dangers of not having it done. In our case, though, we change the usual timing, and delay the surgery to try to mitigate the long-term possible consequences of having it done.

We can do that. Our dogs don't run. There are few dogs running loose out here. The yard is fenced and our dogs are closely supervised.

For someone in, say, a more urban setting where there are more dogs running loose, this might not be a wise decision. But it works for us and we've never been responsible for a litter. Does that make us irresponsible owners? :shrug:

BenMax
October 13th, 2008, 02:24 PM
[QUOTE=hazelrunpack;673457]The main reason for early spay/neuter, and this is why the shelters should continue to do them, BenMax, is to prevent more unwanted litters and health problems in the adult dog. And bmxman, there are risks inherent in keeping a female intact. QUOTE]

Thank you for clarifying Hazelrunpack - for infact I do work in rescue. I just do not agree with the list of 'risks' that were listed. So my question was aimed at the Long (somethings) answer to the thread. For those that do not know about the importance of spaying and neutering I would dare say that this list of risks is questionable and on a forum that is promoting (I hope) good pet ownership? I am simply 'stunned'.

hazelrunpack
October 13th, 2008, 02:37 PM
I think that any of the lists would be more useful if they also showed the relative frequency of the risk...unfortunately I have yet to find such a list. We ended up discussing the frequencies of the risks with our vet, and finally came to a compromise on the timing that we felt comfortable with.

The fact that the list of cons is longer than the list of pros is just superficial, and I hope anyone new coming in and reading the thread picks up on that--most of the "pro" items (risk of unwanted litters, pyometras, etc) are just so much more frequent than the incidence of, say, hemangiosarcoma developing in an early spayed/neutered dog, that the pros still outweigh the cons in my mind, despite the relative lengths of the lists. :shrug:

satchelp
October 13th, 2008, 02:49 PM
Benmax,

The list that was posted is not fiction. There are a few fairly recent studies on the long-term health effects of spay/neuter. What one has to remember when reading these studies is that they do not take into account anything with regard to careless breeding, or accidental litters. That is a whole other viewpoint on the subject. These studies simply address health benefits and detriments. I think this is important information to know as there are many blanket statements made that it is much more healthy to spay/neuter. It is far from that simple. I agree with all of hazelrunpack's statements.

Longblades
October 13th, 2008, 03:13 PM
Longblades - after reading the list provided in regards to spay and neutering -it appears that there are more risks than benefits? Why then would I ever want to alter any of my pets? The links are there to help you make up your own mind. I don't know you, your pet or your living situation. The links are not easy reading for a lay person. I imagine someone seriously concerned with this topic would have to go over them several times, especially as the second one gives some breed specific information and delves into societal concerns as well as health.

So I guess that shelters and rescues would want to do what is best for animals and according to the list it would be to NOT sterilize an animal? Is that what you guess? Did you read the section in the second link (Krustitz) on societal concerns? And the conclusion in that link that states, "Animals housed at humane societies should be treated as a population. Societal benefit resulting
from gonadectomy of unowned dogs and cats in
the United States outweighs all other concerns.
Male and female dogs and cats should be spayed
or castrated before being offered for adoption by
humane organizations.

I find this very damaging information and I would seriously consider this source of information. All three links are extensively referenced. You are able to check the sources if you wish.

I have a feeling that the list of 'risks' is based on isolated incidents or lack of real data such as 'shortening of lifespan' if an animal is altered. Then again, one of the benefits of altering is to prevent testicular cancer....but then by not neutering we go back to 'lifespan' - which in this case is shortening it due to not neutering....Of course you are quite free to go on any "feeling" you want. As already pointed out, the references are there.
The OP specifically requested "solid information and not just I heard this or I heard that." Solid research to rebut anything presented in the links would be appreciated if anyone has links to such information.

Longblades
October 13th, 2008, 03:16 PM
relative frequency of the risk That is shown in the links. The list is just an excerpt.

hazelrunpack
October 13th, 2008, 03:24 PM
That is shown in the links. The list is just an excerpt.

I wish I could open the links! It'll have to wait till I sign off here...more than a window or two open at a time and my modem starts smoking. :D

It'll be interesting to see if the data on frequency has changed much over the years. Thanks, Longblades.

BenMax
October 13th, 2008, 03:51 PM
I think some of you are missing the point here. The below quote is what the poster writes....now does this have anything to do with your risk factor? Based on the below, do you think that this dog will have someone interested at all on the over-population? The poster seems well aware but his spouse not so....come on and get real people. Does this sound familiar to anyone or am I just completely cracked!

"Her basic reasoning is the dog shouldn't be spayed just for our own convenience. The dog was born with reproductive organs so who are we to remove them? I was just always told it's better for the animal involved but there is a lot of conflicting info out there...I'm still reading.."

hazelrunpack
October 13th, 2008, 04:06 PM
The OP is looking for information that might convince his spouse to spay their dog. Yep, got it. But to do that, he has to offer her a well-rounded base of information. If my hubby tries to convince me to do something just because he says it's 'the thing to do', he'd better have some good information to convince me. :D

There's nothing wrong with looking at both sides of a question, BenMax. Sometimes it makes a decision a little harder to make, but in the end I always feel more comfortable with the decision I've made if I've seen both sides of the issue. :shrug:

BenMax
October 13th, 2008, 04:15 PM
The OP is looking for information that might convince his spouse to spay their dog. Yep, got it. But to do that, he has to offer her a well-rounded base of information. If my hubby tries to convince me to do something just because he says it's 'the thing to do', he'd better have some good information to convince me. :D

There's nothing wrong with looking at both sides of a question, BenMax. Sometimes it makes a decision a little harder to make, but in the end I always feel more comfortable with the decision I've made if I've seen both sides of the issue. :shrug:

I see and understand your point hazelrunpack. I guess I am overly sensitive to this because I see on a daily basis all the horrors. The horrors I speak of is not that of a female that is incontinent due to spaying. The horrors are those that I must trap and pick up off the street that have litters of kittens. Calls from people who don't want their pet due to moving, money, divorce. Then I make a trip to the SPCA to find out how I can help to remove some animals that may be in danger - totally understanding why humane societies cannot keep them all and have to cut down on numbers.....due to overpopulation.

And let me dare to say that the vast majority of animals that I get are NOT sterilized - running loose in the streets or sitting in shelters or animal control.

I may sound like a complete downer - but it is what all those experience in rescue and shelters alike. It is unforgiving.

Everyone must make a choice and in fact it is great that people do their homework - but this list of pros and cons really hits a nerve with me.

I will stay out of this thread from now on...I think that I will be linched if not.

Longblades
October 13th, 2008, 04:17 PM
What? People can't open the links? Ok, maybe this will help. You can google by author, title or both if you want to read but cannot open the links.

I never thought anybody would read only that short little list. It was intended to pique your curiosity to read more of the details.

Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs
Laura J. Sanborn, M.S.
May 14, 2007

Determining the optimal age for gonadectomy of dogs and cats Margaret V. Root Kustritz, dvm, phd, dact

Should I spay or should I no..? - the pros and cons of neutering Hungarian Vizsla Health Resource

Just as a side note, Lavender Rott's quote is a good example of how the data can be used to determine which risk or benefit is more important to you.

hazelrunpack
October 13th, 2008, 04:23 PM
I don't think you should stay out of discussions like these, BenMax. One big chunk of data in the equation is the horror you and other rescuers deal with every day--and the untenable situations in the overflowing shelters across the world. This has to be part of the decision-making, too. And your passion in this thread is an important part of that discussion.

All sides. And :fingerscr the OP's spouse comes around in the end.

MommaKat
October 13th, 2008, 04:23 PM
Several years ago, I got my first Cat (free kitten from some mean whackadoodles who had them in a dirty box), Her name was luvy and she enjoyed attacking shoelaces and sleeping in the closet :lovestruck: .

I did not want to put her through a surgery simply because she was extremely skittish due to previous abuse. I thought that if I diligently kept her in the apartment I could keep her safe... I was SO wrong.

Her first heat was really stressful for both her and me. She started to become a real escape artist, one day I caught her clawing holes in the screen window and a week later she almost made a leap from the balcony. By her second heat I decided I was going to get her fixed but unfortunately I was to late with this decision. The day I lost my cat I was sick with the flu, I opened up the door to sign a package and ( not quick enough to grab her), she took off. I looked for her for months and it was a long time before I got another cat. 5 years later I have 2 cats and a dog that are all spayed. we got our dog from people my husband knew and we payed $300 to get her spayed :eek: because of her size and age (it's cheaper when they are 6 months).


I made a mistake and my poor kitty suffered. I truly believe, because I was not willing to get her fixed as soon as she was ready to be, that I did not deserve Luvy cat :sad::sad:.

Your wife should talk to the vet and people who work in shelters before she makes this choice for your pooch. So if your wife is not prepared to do the responsible thing then she should prepare for puppies or worse :sad: .

hazelrunpack
October 13th, 2008, 04:28 PM
What? People can't open the links? Ok, maybe this will help. You can google by author, title or both if you want to read but cannot open the links.


Probably most people can, Longblades. I'm on slow dial-up so I can't open more than one link at a time. So I'll have to check them when I sign off of pets.ca. :o

Etown_Chick
October 13th, 2008, 09:02 PM
Are the anti-spay/neuter people the same ones who fill up animal shelters and rescues?

Frenchy
October 13th, 2008, 09:19 PM
I may sound like a complete downer - but it is what all those experience in rescue and shelters alike. It is unforgiving.

Everyone must make a choice and in fact it is great that people do their homework - but this list of pros and cons really hits a nerve with me.



I totally agree with you BenMax. The list may get some people to NOT get their pets spayed/neuter when there shouldn't be any question about it !

kathryn
October 13th, 2008, 09:25 PM
Are the anti-spay/neuter people the same ones who fill up animal shelters and rescues?


Generally. 4/5 times and the 1/5 times are just generally ignorant people.

I can give you TEN MILLION reasons to spay or neuter your pet.

/sure everyone knows where I'm going.

Don't make me break out the depressing pictures of euthed' animals and gas chambers! I'VE ALREADY DONE IT ONCE TODAY DON'T MAKE ME DO IT AGAIN :o

bmxman
October 13th, 2008, 09:27 PM
Just so everyone is aware my wife worked in a SPCA as a behavioral specialist for over 2 years dealing with cats...so she knows a lot more about pets than I.

I'm not worried about my dog getting pregnant as she is well watched and has a large 1/8 acre play area that is fenced all around. I think for us is becoming more of an ethical issue...still reading though..there have been some good links provided.

kathryn
October 13th, 2008, 09:34 PM
Just so everyone is aware my wife worked in a SPCA as a behavioral specialist for over 2 years dealing with cats...so she knows a lot more about pets than I.

I'm not worried about my dog getting pregnant as she is well watched and has a large 1/8 acre play area that is fenced all around. I think for us is becoming more of an ethical issue...still reading though..there have been some good links provided.

We rescue peoples hear this alllllll the time. It still happens regardless. If your wife worked at an SPCA surely she knows all about pet overpopulation and the fact that millions upon millions are euthanized each year. Why would you even want to take the risk?

Also, with dogs the problems are alot worse. When dogs go into heat it's really obnoxious and disgusting. They are very likely to have issues.

Diamondsmum
October 13th, 2008, 09:36 PM
You know i wasnt going to reply to this thread as my Puppy is getting spayed.

but it came to light to me this week my Puppy was almost stolen from my yard. Thread here (http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=57236)

and someone said that being a pure bred unfixed female "top of list to be stolen"

That to me is 1 more reason to get her fixed.. the idea of her ending up in a puppy mill scares me. or some other god-alful place. or even stolen from my place just because of her breed. for some BYB to use her for $$.


just my :2cents:

That guy may never be caught but someone else's dog may end up stolen by them for Breeding purposes or otherwise & breed it dont matter. They will "invent" a breed & charge lots of $$ for the puppys.

LavenderRott
October 13th, 2008, 09:44 PM
Just so everyone is aware my wife worked in a SPCA as a behavioral specialist for over 2 years dealing with cats...so she knows a lot more about pets than I.

I'm not worried about my dog getting pregnant as she is well watched and has a large 1/8 acre play area that is fenced all around. I think for us is becoming more of an ethical issue...still reading though..there have been some good links provided.

I sure wish I could find a good link that lists all of the complications and illnesses related to heat, pregnancy and delivery.

Don't be so sure that your well watched bitch won't become pregnant. I have heard many horror stories of dogs breeding through fences, kennels, crates and males chewing through walls to get to bitches in heat.

I read one of the links provided earlier in the post. I can't find any evidence that any of the risks listed are ONLY higher in spayed/neutered dogs or that the risk increases by more than 2% for any of them.

I volunteered for a couple of years at a small town shelter when I was younger. I can remember pregnant dogs and cats being dumped. I can remember whelping litters of puppies and kittens. I can remember euthanizing those same puppies and kittens weeks later when homes couldn't be found for them. Sorry - but that trumps a 2% increase in my dog's chance of getting cancer. And I sobbed like a baby when I lost my Chase to cancer a couple of years ago.

bmxman
October 13th, 2008, 09:45 PM
We rescue peoples hear this alllllll the time. It still happens regardless. If your wife worked at an SPCA surely she knows all about pet overpopulation and the fact that millions upon millions are euthanized each year. Why would you even want to take the risk?

Also, with dogs the problems are alot worse. When dogs go into heat it's really obnoxious and disgusting. They are very likely to have issues.

I'm more concerned about my puppy's health...not pregnancy. It's just not an issue for us and how we live. As far as the heat cycles..I really don't want to have to deal with my dog having a period but the decision to spay her is only half mine. My main concern is health risks to my dog...my wife's main concern is physically altering her dog just out of convenience to us.

bmxman
October 13th, 2008, 09:48 PM
You know i wasnt going to reply to this thread as my Puppy is getting spayed.

but it came to light to me this week my Puppy was almost stolen from my yard. Thread here (http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=57236)

and someone said that being a pure bred unfixed female "top of list to be stolen"

That to me is 1 more reason to get her fixed.. the idea of her ending up in a puppy mill scares me. or some other god-alful place. or even stolen from my place just because of her breed. for some BYB to use her for $$.


just my :2cents:

That guy may never be caught but someone else's dog may end up stolen by them for Breeding purposes or otherwise & breed it dont matter. They will "invent" a breed & charge lots of $$ for the puppys.

thank you that is a good point I will be sure to bring up!

kathryn
October 13th, 2008, 09:57 PM
Yeah really.. I've got 25 dogs&pups on the gassing list @ the Georgia shelter I work with. 4 of them were supposed to be gassed on the 10th but I think they got held over.

6 were on the list for today... Hope they got out by 4:30 or they went bye-byes in the carbon monoxide gassing chamber then were 'cremated' in the incinerator outback.

3 have to be out by tomorrow 4:30
5 have until Wednesday.

This is just ONE shelter. aNDDDD these are just the dogs I KNOW ABOUT! I can't even really keep up with the complete list.


I don't want to have to get any more depressing then this...

onster
October 13th, 2008, 10:08 PM
I'm more concerned about my puppy's health...not pregnancy. It's just not an issue for us and how we live. As far as the heat cycles..I really don't want to have to deal with my dog having a period but the decision to spay her is only half mine. My main concern is health risks to my dog...my wife's main concern is physically altering her dog just out of convenience to us.

Ok, fair enough bmxman.
Pretty much everyone here has suggested, very strongly, that indeed spaying is the way to go for countless reasons, the main one not being convenience, but rather overall health and safety.

If you worried about the ethical problems with removing her parts...well you must also consider the ethical problems that can arise from unwanted litters because as mentioned this is a very real, extremely possible consquence if she is left unaltered. This is not an inconvenience but a real health risk (and trust me dogs can jump fences).

I think you are anthropomorphising your dog too much. If I woke up and found that someone tied my tubes all hell would break loose and id probably be scarred for life. With a dog however, not the case. She will be fine. She wont be mad and really she wont know any better. I have a choice to take the pill, get my tubes tied, not be sexually active etc..a dog has no choice. Either a) theyre spayed or b) theyre not and they get pregant -enter ethical dilemna of unwanted litters- or c) they dont get pregnant but live a life filled with unpleasant heat cycles -enter ethical problem of allowing such unpleasantness to continue given there is option a). A human period isnt fun...really Im sure ure wife knows. With dogs there's much more to consider than cramping/ pmsing. Keep that in mind.

Honestly Bmxman, the decision of ethics should be based on where the greater good lies and clearly the greater good is in spaying :2cents:

flipgirl4
October 13th, 2008, 10:11 PM
I'm sure what I'm going to say has been said, I didn't read all the posts but here are my two cents....

If you decide not to spay your dog, are you going to make every effort to avoid 'accidents'? When a bitch is in heat, males will be on her like flies on poop. Having a baby is hard enough; having 5 or 6 puppies is even harder especially if you both work and obviously don't get canine maternity leave. Your wife may think it's a rare occurrence but many of these accidental pups end up in shelters.

Also, as stated in a previous post, she may change her mind after her first estrus. I think heat goes on for a month. I was freaked out about mhy dog going into her first heat before her spay as the vet told me that small dogs can go into estru earlier than 6 months. She was acting all weird one time and someone asked me if she was in heat. And then to have to deal with the mess? For a month? Your wife won't be complaining about her periods anymore!!!

While it does seem cruel to take out the dog's reproductive organs without their consent, it's also avoiding other things like cancer and accidental pregnancies.

It's fine if you don't spay her, there are pros and cons but just be aware of the things that will occur with whatever decision you and your wife make.

onster
October 13th, 2008, 10:11 PM
I guess I shoul have said "if your wife is worried....."

Sorry, I realize you say u would rather spay her.

kathryn
October 13th, 2008, 10:25 PM
When I was at my cousins house (in Georgia) she has some dinky little chihuahua that's unaltered. Jumped up on my aunts lap and bled all over her shirt :yuck::yuck::yuck::yuck::yuck:

Your wifes argument doesn't make much sense either. It's really not even just for your convenience.

www.spayusa.org even though you are in Canada it's still the same deal.
BENEFITS OF SPAY/NEUTER FOR CATS AND DOGS
Benefits of Spaying (females):
No heat cycles, therefore males will not be attracted
Less desire to roam
Risk of mammary gland tumors, ovarian and/or uterine cancer is reduced or eliminated, especially if done before the first heat cycle
Reduces number of unwanted cats/kittens/dogs/puppies
Helps dogs and cats live longer, healthier lives

Benefits of Neutering (males):
Reduces or eliminates risk of spraying and marking
Less desire to roam, therefore less likely to be injured in fights or auto accidents
Risk of testicular cancer is eliminated, and decreases incidence of prostate disease
Reduces number of unwanted cats/kittens/dogs/puppies
Decreases aggressive behavior, including dog bites
Helps dogs and cats live longer, healthier lives

Top 3 Reasons to Spay and Neuter
It helps to reduce companion animal overpopulation. Most countries have a surplus of companion animals and are forced to euthanize or disregard their great suffering. The surplus is in the millions in the United States. Cats are 45 times as prolific, and dogs 15 times as prolific, as humans.They do not need our help to expand their numbers; they need our help to reduce their numbers until there are good homes for them all.
Sterilization of your cat or dog will increase his/her chance of a longer and healthier life. Altering your canine friend will increase his life an average of 1 to 3 years, felines, 3 to 5 years. Altered animals have a very low to no risk of mammary gland tumors/cancer, prostate cancer, perianal tumors, pyometria, and uterine, ovarian and testicular cancers.
Sterilizing your cat/dog makes him/her a better pet, reducing his/her urge to roam and decreasing the risk of contracting diseases or getting hurt as they roam. Surveys indicate that as many as 85% of dogs hit by cars are unaltered. Intact male cats living outside have been shown to live on average less than two years. Feline Immunodeficiency Syndrome is spread by bites and intact cats fight a great deal more than altered cats.
Additional Benefits:
Your community will also benefit. Unwanted animals are becoming a very real concern in many places. Stray animals can easily become a public nuisance, soiling parks and streets, ruining shrubbery, frightening children and elderly people, creating noise and other disturbances, causing automobile accidents, and sometimes even killing livestock or other pets.
- The American Veterinary Medical Association

The capture, impoundment and eventual destruction of unwanted animals costs taxpayers and private humanitarian agencies over a billion dollars each year. As a potential source of rabies and other less serious diseases, they can be a public health hazard.
- The American Veterinary Medical Association


This is from the shelter I volunteer at:
What do "spay" and "neuter" really mean?
Female dogs and cats are spayed by removing their reproductive organs, and male dogs and cats are neutered by removing their testicles. In both cases the operation is performed while the pet is under anesthesia. Depending on your pet's age, size, and health, he or she will stay at your veterinarian's office for a few hours or a few days. Depending upon the procedure, your pet may need stitches removed after a few days. Your veterinarian can fully explain spay and neuter procedures to you and discuss with you the best age at which to sterilize your pet.

Spaying or Neutering Is Good for Your Pet

Spaying and neutering helps dogs and cats live longer, healthier lives.
Spaying and neutering can eliminate or reduce the incidence of a number of health problems that can be very difficult or expensive to treat.
Spaying eliminates the possibility of uterine or ovarian cancer and greatly reduces the incidence of breast cancer, particularly when your pet is spayed before her first estrous cycle.
Neutering eliminates testicular cancer and decreases the incidence of prostate disease.
Spaying or Neutering Is Good for You

Spaying and neutering makes pets better, more affectionate companions.
Neutering cats makes them less likely to spray and mark territory.
Spaying a dog or cat eliminates her heat cycle. Estrus lasts an average of six to 12 days, often twice a year, in dogs and an average of six to seven days, three or more times a year, in cats. Females in heat can cry incessantly, show nervous behavior, and attract unwanted male animals.
Unsterilized animals often exhibit more behavior and temperament problems than do those who have been spayed or neutered.
Spaying and neutering can make pets less likely to bite.
Neutering makes pets less likely to roam the neighborhood, run away, or get into fights.
Spaying and Neutering Are Good for the Community

Communities spend millions of dollars to control unwanted animals.
Irresponsible breeding contributes to the problem of dog bites and attacks.
Animal shelters are overburdened with surplus animals.
Stray pets and homeless animals get into trash containers, defecate in public areas or on private lawns, and frighten or anger people who have no understanding of their misery or needs.
Some stray animals also scare away or kill birds and wildlife.
Spay or neuter surgery carries a one-time cost that is relatively small when one considers its benefits. It's a small price to pay for the health of your pet and the prevention of more unwanted animals.

As a nation, we claim to love cats and dogs. Millions of households have pets, and billions of dollars are spent yearly on pet supplies and food. But as a nation, we should take a hard, sobering look at a different annual statistic: the millions of dogs and cats given up to shelters or left to die on the streets. And the numbers tell only half the story.

Every cat or dog who dies as a result of pet overpopulation-whether humanely in a shelter or by injury, disease, or neglect-is an animal who, more often than not, would have made a wonderful companion, if given the chance. Tremendous as the problem of pet overpopulation is, it can be solved if each of us takes just one small step, starting with not allowing our animals to breed. Here's information about this crisis and why spaying and neutering is the first step to a solution.

Every day in the United States thousands upon thousands of puppies and kittens are born because of the uncontrolled breeding of pets. Add to that number the offspring of stray and abandoned companion animals, and the total becomes even more staggering. Every year, between six and eight million dogs and cats enter U.S. shelters; some three to four million of these animals are euthanized because there are not enough homes for them.

Too many companion animals competing for too few good homes is the most obvious consequence of uncontrolled breeding. However, there are other equally tragic problems that result from pet overpopulation: the transformation of some animal shelters into "warehouses," the acceptance of cruelty to animals as a way of life in our society, and the stress that caring shelter workers suffer when they are forced to euthanize one animal after another. Living creatures have become throwaway items to be cuddled when cute and abandoned when inconvenient. Such disregard for animal life pervades and erodes our culture.

Abandoned and stray companion animals who survive in the streets and alleys of cities and suburbs pose a health threat to humans and other animals. Homeless companion animals get into trash containers, defecate in public areas or on private lawns, and anger citizens who have no understanding of their misery or their needs. Some of these animals scare away or prey upon wildlife-such as birds-or frighten small children.

The public health epidemic of dog bites-which number more than 4.5 million each year-is due in part to uncontrolled breeding of pets. Bites by so-called dangerous dogs have drawn an enormous amount of media attention, and fatalities caused by dangerous dogs are a serious concern. Often, the vicious tendencies found in some dog breeds can be attributed to irresponsible breeding without regard for temperament. Neutering can help reduce this aggressive behavior.

Clearly, pet overpopulation is not just a problem for the animals or for the shelters involved. Each year communities are forced to spend millions of taxpayer dollars trying to cope with the consequences of this surplus of pets. These public costs include services such as investigating animal cruelty, humanely capturing stray animals, and sheltering lost and homeless animals.

The solution can be simply stated. Its implementation, however, requires sweeping efforts from a variety of organizations and people, including you.

The solution is this: Only by implementing widespread sterilization programs, only by spaying and neutering all companion animals, will we get a handle on pet overpopulation. Consider the fact that in six short years, one female dog and her offspring can give birth to 67,000 puppies. In seven years, one cat and her young can produce 420,000 kittens.

Given these high reproductive rates, it stands to reason that, in only a few years, carefully planned and implemented sterilization programs could produce a dramatic reduction in the number of unwanted companion animals born. In fact, in those towns and cities that have implemented such programs, we've already seen the number of companion animals who had to be euthanized decline by 30 to 60 percent-even in those communities where human populations have been steadily increasing. But these programs don't create themselves. They require the planning and coordination of many people. Successful pet population control programs range from subsidized sterilization clinics to cooperative efforts involving local veterinarians to mass media educational campaigns. Only through the continued nationwide establishment of such programs will we bring an end to the tragedy of pet overpopulation.

bmxman
October 13th, 2008, 10:29 PM
I'm sure what I'm going to say has been said, I didn't read all the posts but here are my two cents....


While it does seem cruel to take out the dog's reproductive organs without their consent, it's also avoiding other things like cancer and accidental pregnancies.

It's fine if you don't spay her, there are pros and cons but just be aware of the things that will occur with whatever decision you and your wife make.

Thanks for the open mind. I'm a Libra so I think it's in my nature to carefully weigh both sides before I make a decision. I'm hoping my wife and I come to a resolution before my puppy is 5 months. :fingerscr...but part of me just wants to take my puppy to the vet and get it done....sometimes it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission but this time my wife seems pretty adamant about it. I was planning to take a week off to look after my pup once it's done does that seems reasonable to most people?

kathryn
October 13th, 2008, 10:39 PM
Thanks for the open mind. I'm a Libra so I think it's in my nature to carefully weigh both sides before I make a decision. I'm hoping my wife and I come to a resolution before my puppy is 5 months. :fingerscr...but part of me just wants to take my puppy to the vet and get it done....sometimes it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission but this time my wife seems pretty adamant about it. I was planning to take a week off to look after my pup once it's done does that seems reasonable to most people?


If you have the kinda job and $$ where you can do that. It's not some complicated surgery. I really know nothing about dogs though. Best to ask someone else. I deal with cats... but I have done work in a spay/neuter clinic. Mostly paperwork stuffs. I'd just try to get the surgery done on a Friday and hang out with her over the weekend.


The reason people are sooo pushy about this subject because it's not like it would just be your problem if she got preggo. It would be OUR problem as the rescue and shelter workers who already are overloaded. That's why sometimes it may seem like some of us are screaming in your face, but the fact is WE are the ones who have to always clean up other peoples messes that could have been easily prevented by spaying/neutering!

the gang
October 13th, 2008, 11:10 PM
as a animal lover BIG TIME and that works rescue!!!! way to much!!! has seen this over and over again !!!!your dog has no choice!!!! you [DO!!! ]if you love your dog you will do whats right for her and get her fixed!!!!!! brenda and the pins..

14+kitties
October 13th, 2008, 11:27 PM
Thanks for the open mind. I'm a Libra so I think it's in my nature to carefully weigh both sides before I make a decision. I'm hoping my wife and I come to a resolution before my puppy is 5 months. :fingerscr...but part of me just wants to take my puppy to the vet and get it done....sometimes it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission but this time my wife seems pretty adamant about it. I was planning to take a week off to look after my pup once it's done does that seems reasonable to most people?

I am Libra too. Well, Libra/Virgo (born on cusp).
So weigh both sides and go with your heart. Maybe the question should not be getting her spayed. Maybe the question should be WHEN to get her spayed. If your research leads you to believe it is better to wait for your dog to be a year old then by all means, wait till your dog is a year old. Just guard her very very carefully till then.
Deal with the blood spots all over the furniture, bedding, clothing. Carry a good cleaner and rags around to clean up those spots for three weeks. Hope that some male doesn't break through your safe fenced area. Know that that ONE time you don't go outside with your pup COULD be the time that a male has jumped the fence/broken through/whatever to get to your pup because he smelled the blood she shed while out earlier. Just be aware.

Off topic because I know we are talking about the pup but...... if the cats hadn't been fixed when you and she got together would she not have wanted them s/n? Because if that's the case..... she needs to come visit me.

flipgirl4
October 13th, 2008, 11:46 PM
Thanks for the open mind. I'm a Libra so I think it's in my nature to carefully weigh both sides before I make a decision. I'm hoping my wife and I come to a resolution before my puppy is 5 months. :fingerscr...but part of me just wants to take my puppy to the vet and get it done....sometimes it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission but this time my wife seems pretty adamant about it. I was planning to take a week off to look after my pup once it's done does that seems reasonable to most people?

I'm an Aquarius so I'm impulsive but an individual so I believe that you have to make your own decision and not be told what to decide....:)

I don't remember if you said what breed or size of dog you have...there is also some controversy about whether to spay or neuter early (before 6 months) or later. I have read that if a large dog is spayed or neutered at 6 months, then he won't be as big because a sex hormone that controls some of the growth is removed or not secreted. I have also read that a small breed should be spayed at 6 months (before their first estrus), a medium breed is spayed at 8 to 10 months, a large breed at a year as the larger a breed is, the slower they mature. There are some vets who will spay even earlier than 6 months but I'm not sure I would do that. Some of the signs that estrus has arrived are restlessness, strange behaviour and obviously, red 'accidents'.

What I did was I took Thursday and Friday off so I had 4 days to see how she recuperated. She was fine to be left alone on Monday. Spaying is more involved than neutering but as long as you keep the elizabethan collar on and she doesn't do any vigorous exercise, she should be fine. The vet gave me 3 days' worth of pain meds and a days' worth of antibiotic to ward off any chance of infection. She won't be in any mood to run or jump for the first 2 or 3 days anyway. Then after 10 days, the stitches were taken out. I would suggest just taking Thursday and Friday off - and maybe warning your boss that you may have to take the next week off to recover from the butt kicking you're going to get from your wife!! ;)

Also, when I booked the surgery, they gave me info and also suggested that I have her vitals monitored during the surgery which is an added cost. I think there were other things they offered at 'nominal costs' but they add up. It's routine surgery so I don't think that these extras are needed.

Good luck!!

clm
October 14th, 2008, 08:08 AM
I'm not worried about my dog getting pregnant as she is well watched and has a large 1/8 acre play area that is fenced all around. I think for us is becoming more of an ethical issue...still reading though..there have been some good links provided.

Worry about it.....dogs can get over and under fences. So can wolves. My uncles unspayed female ended up mating with a timber wolf who sniffed her out while she was in heat. Unless you have an 8 ft tall fence that can't be climbed or dug under, your dog will be at risk while she's in heat.

Cindy

Love4himies
October 14th, 2008, 08:10 AM
I'm more concerned about my puppy's health...not pregnancy. It's just not an issue for us and how we live. As far as the heat cycles..I really don't want to have to deal with my dog having a period but the decision to spay her is only half mine. My main concern is health risks to my dog...my wife's main concern is physically altering her dog just out of convenience to us.

Unless your pup is locked up in a cage 24/7, there is always a chance of pregnancy. You can't predict with 100% accuracy what will happen, it takes a split second for an incident to happen that will distract you from your dog, and another split second for your pup to run. Their urge to reproduce is much greater than their loyalty to you.

BenMax and Kathryn, I agree with you.

As for Dr. Lee, he is pro spay before the first heat, the chances of mammory cancer increases with each heat the female experiences.

Dogs and cats do not have the same maternal instinct as humans, she will not miss her ovaries or uterus. I have only experienced one cat in heat and let me tell you she was not a happy camper, she was frustrated and cranky. She is much happier spayed enjoying a life of leisure.

ancientgirl
October 14th, 2008, 08:18 AM
I'm sorry, but you keep using the word convenience, and saying your wife doesn't want the dog spayed for your convenience.

It's more for their convenience than anything. Ask some of the people on this board what a female dog goes through during a pregnancy and birthing. Then ask what the next several weeks is like for her while she's nursing. That is, assuming everything goes well during the birthing process.

Many a time I've wondered how nice it would be to have let some of mine have kittens, yet I would have never forgiven myself had something happened to them during their pregnancy and giving birth to their kittens. It's hard. Animals don't have the benefit of pain pills. They don't have the option of letting someone else take care of their babies while they have some much needed rest. Then of course if she does wind up pregnant, what are you going to do with the litter? Give them away? Good luck.

As L4H said, unless you plan on keeping your dog locked up 24/7 anything can happen and she may wind up pregnant somehow.

clm
October 14th, 2008, 08:30 AM
I'm not worried about my dog getting pregnant as she is well watched and has a large 1/8 acre play area that is fenced all around. I think for us is becoming more of an ethical issue...still reading though..there have been some good links provided.

Worry about it.....dogs can get over and under fences. So can wolves. My uncles unspayed female ended up mating with a timber wolf who sniffed her out while she was in heat. Unless you have an 8 ft tall fence that can't be climbed or dug under, your dog will be at risk while she's in heat.

Cindy

Longblades
October 14th, 2008, 08:40 AM
I have read that if a large dog is spayed or neutered at 6 months, then he won't be as big because a sex hormone that controls some of the growth is removed or not secreted.No, it's the other way around. The dog may end up taller. The surge of sex hormones through the body is the signal for the growth plates, mostly in the long bones, to close up. Preventing puberty by neutering denies the body that signal resulting in growth of the long bones continuing a bit longer than would normally happen. The dog's ultimate weight at maturity, determined by genetics and feeding, is thought to be unaffected but the dog may have longer legs than nature intended and the length may be in places where a joint angle, meaning structure, is changed. It is linked in some studies with the increase of cruciate injury and is the reason many owners of dogs intended to do hard work or sports prefer to let their dog mature before neuter. This applies to bitches and dogs.

Bones and ligaments: Early-age neutered dogs have increased incidence of orthopaedic problems (type not specified) [8], and hip dysplasia (CHD) [14]. Similarly, a correlation between increased incidence of CHD and increased time for growth plate closure has been reported in Labradors [110]. Although rates of CHD were increased in early neutered dogs, one study found the disease was significantly less severe than in dogs that were neutered at a later age; dogs with hip dysplasia that had been neutered at 5.5 months or older were “3 times as likely to be euthanatized for the condition as those with hip dysplasia and gonadectomized before 5.5 months of age.” [14]. This study was done on dogs obtained from a shelter – not a population of dogs that would normally be screened for CHD. I assume therefore, the dogs presented with clinical signs. In contrast, one study that followed early-age neutered pets for a 4-year period found no statistical difference in CHD rates between pre-pubertal (< 24 weeks of age), and traditional age (>/= 24 weeks of age) neutered pets [13].

Again, relating to neutering at a young age and resultant increased height/weight; Akita dogs (not bitches) “with any musculoskeletal disorder were 2-times as likely to be in the highest weight/height category than were dogs never diagnosed with a musculoskeletal disease.” [108]. the quote above is from the third link. It presents results between different studies and also presents data showing effect at different ages of neuter.

happycats
October 14th, 2008, 09:21 AM
Another point, check out the licensing prices in your area.
Because I neutered and mirochipped my dog, I was able to get a lifetime licence in my city for just $15. unaltered dogs and cats, have to buy a licence every year, and are more expensive.

Ethical..............if your wife doesn't want any kids, or anymore kids, is it unethical to get her tubes tied? What about if her periods are horrible, painful, and unbearable to her, wouldn't she opt for a hysterectomy, if her doctor recommends it? A dog goes through the same as a human when in heat, except they don't know why.

Love4himies
October 14th, 2008, 10:08 AM
Ethical..............if your wife doesn't want any kids, or anymore kids, is it unethical to get her tubes tied? What about if her periods are horrible, painful, and unbearable to her, wouldn't she opt for a hysterectomy, if her doctor recommends it? A dog goes through the same as a human when in heat, except they don't know why.

I wish I could opt for a hysterectomy even though I don't have horrible periods, I am very active and it just gets in the way.

happycats
October 14th, 2008, 10:42 AM
I wish I could opt for a hysterectomy even though I don't have horrible periods, I am very active and it just gets in the way.


I would love a hysterectomy too!!! I hate periods! :yuck:

14+kitties
October 14th, 2008, 10:49 AM
I would love a hysterectomy too!!! I hate periods! :yuck:

:offtopic:
Don't get too carried away with that thought ladies. A hystercotomy is no laughing matter. You really don't want to live on hormone replacement the rest of your life. My sister had to have an emergency one at 22 and she has been a real B***ch since!! :D
It takes a long time to moderate the meds and then it isn't perfect. They have to keep changing dosages.
It's great dogs don't have to go through that.

Ok, back on topic...............

happycats
October 14th, 2008, 10:53 AM
:offtopic:
My sister had to have an emergency one at 22 and she has been a real B***ch since!! :

kinda like permanent PMS !:eek: My DH would leave me :evil:

Fortunately dogs don't have these problems, and don't even know the difference.

14+kitties
October 14th, 2008, 10:57 AM
kinda like permanent PMS !:eek: My DH would leave me :evil:

Fortunately dogs don't have these problems, and don't even know the difference.

Well, she's 55 now. Does that tell ya' something? :rolleyes: :laughing::laughing:

mona_b
October 14th, 2008, 11:00 AM
This is different.It's usually the wife who wants the dog fixed and not the hubby.LOL

But I am so glad to hear you want to get your pup done....:thumbs up

You really need to sit down and have a heard to heart talk with her.Is there ANY way your vet can talk her into it?Can your vet explain the pros to her of having it done?Spaying is soooo very important.

And I have to agree,if she has worked in a shelter,then she should know what goes on in there.This is another reason why ALL dogs and cats should be done before going out to their new homes.

I adopted my 2 cats at 8 weeks.They were both s/n before we could take them home.This is how my SPCA works.

With my GSD's,I was on a neuter contract.I had to have them done at 6 months.Having them done at this age didn't change them one bit.My current is 12,and you can put him beside another GSD that was done at a later age.He looks no different in size or shape.

Ethical..............if your wife doesn't want any kids, or anymore kids, is it unethical to get her tubes tied? What about if her periods are horrible, painful, and unbearable to her, wouldn't she opt for a hysterectomy, if her doctor recommends it? A dog goes through the same as a human when in heat, except they don't know why.

I agree.I'm going to get off topic.

I had a tubal pregnancy with twins.I went through H**L.It could have killed me.And I already had a daughter to think about.It boiled down to a shot of cheymo.I was told that I had a 75% chance it could happen again.So I was advised to have my tubes burnt.So I did.I have been through 3 different meds in regards to my period.I'm going through h*ll with them.I'm on my 13th day with this one.This med is not working.So I have been talked to about the next step.A hysterectomy.Which consists of 8-10 weeks off work.BUT in a pup,the healing time is a heck of a lot less.More like a week if that.If this is what a cat and a dog go through,I soooooooooooooo feel for them.I would NEVER EVER want them to go through this at all...:cry::cry:

So now this makes me think that when they do go into heat,all the howling and whining and meowing is them being in pain.Mention that to your wife...;)

flipgirl4
October 14th, 2008, 05:31 PM
I wish I could opt for a hysterectomy even though I don't have horrible periods, I am very active and it just gets in the way.

There isa birth control pill called Seasonale that you take consecutively for 3 months and then go off for a week. so you only have to have a period 4 times a year!!

And to the poster who corrected me on the early neuter/growth issue, thank you for correcting me....

bmxman
October 15th, 2008, 12:07 PM
Another point, check out the licensing prices in your area.
Because I neutered and mirochipped my dog, I was able to get a lifetime licence in my city for just $15. unaltered dogs and cats, have to buy a licence every year, and are more expensive.

Ethical..............if your wife doesn't want any kids, or anymore kids, is it unethical to get her tubes tied? What about if her periods are horrible, painful, and unbearable to her, wouldn't she opt for a hysterectomy, if her doctor recommends it? A dog goes through the same as a human when in heat, except they don't know why.


I don't see how this is a valid comparison...a human being is fully aware of her reproductive organs and they decide what to do about it.

bmxman
October 15th, 2008, 12:12 PM
well on a positive note yesterday my wife started to lean towards my side:cloud9:...were taking Maya to the vet next week for her 2nd set of shots so hopefully we can get even more info and decide on this soon....I don't like having things on my mind 24/7...oh and I don't think I ever mentioned it but Maya is a Lab/Collie cross that we got from a local breeder.

ancientgirl
October 15th, 2008, 12:16 PM
She's a lab/collie cross from a breeder?

I wish you luck with your girl. Hopefully at the vets office you can get more information and make a decision that's the best one for her health. I will go out on a limb and assume the vet will steer you in the direction of getting her spayed. Again, best of luck!

BenMax
October 15th, 2008, 12:19 PM
Well BMXMan - I think your vet is the best person to give the advice. I am certain that he will provide you with all the pros and cons.

Not to get too picky (sorry about this) but a good breeder would have insisted that the dog be sterilized. This 'breeder' is breeding a mix breed and therefore is not a renouned breeder but is what we call a BYB.

Regardless of where the dog comes from, I am glad she is shifting onto your side. Really it is a pretty simple decision, and since your wife worked in a shelter - she surely can appreciate the reasons on why you would ensure your pet is sterilized.

LavenderRott
October 15th, 2008, 12:20 PM
Well. It has been years since I have had an unaltered female dog in my house but I am fairly certain that if your wife holds out, she will change her mind after the first heat.

Some 15 years ago, I had a collie. I remember 3 things about her one and only heat cycle. First off, the smell. She stunk. I remember having to bathe her every day just so we could stand having her in my apartment.

The second thing was the mess. Every time she laid down for more then a minute, there was a bloody spot. The longer she laid down, the bigger the spot. The couch was covered in a sheet which had to be replaced (not washed but thrown out and replaced) every single day.

The third - me walking around with huge bottles of peroxide trying to get the mess out of the carpet.

Love4himies
October 15th, 2008, 12:21 PM
There isa birth control pill called Seasonale that you take consecutively for 3 months and then go off for a week. so you only have to have a period 4 times a year!!

And to the poster who corrected me on the early neuter/growth issue, thank you for correcting me....

Thanks flipgirl4, I think I may be too old for birthcontrol pills :laughing:

happycats
October 15th, 2008, 12:32 PM
I don't see how this is a valid comparison...a human being is fully aware of her reproductive organs and they decide what to do about it.

Can you please explain why your wife feels it's "unethical" to alter a pet ? Is it's because it's unaware it's unethical, but if it were aware it would be ethical :shrug:

My point is an animal is unaware of her reproductive organs, and will not understand the pain and fear of heat, so why put her through it?

happycats
October 15th, 2008, 12:43 PM
More info http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+1625&aid=926

BenMax
October 15th, 2008, 01:09 PM
More info http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+1625&aid=926

Nice - thanks happycats!:thumbs up

Bina
October 15th, 2008, 02:45 PM
Well. It has been years since I have had an unaltered female dog in my house but I am fairly certain that if your wife holds out, she will change her mind after the first heat.

Some 15 years ago, I had a collie. I remember 3 things about her one and only heat cycle. First off, the smell. She stunk. I remember having to bathe her every day just so we could stand having her in my apartment.

The second thing was the mess. Every time she laid down for more then a minute, there was a bloody spot. The longer she laid down, the bigger the spot. The couch was covered in a sheet which had to be replaced (not washed but thrown out and replaced) every single day.

The third - me walking around with huge bottles of peroxide trying to get the mess out of the carpet.

True, true.....most pet owners change their mind real quick when their house pet has trashed the entire house.:eek:

IluvZeus
October 16th, 2008, 10:20 AM
Just my two cents, and if it's been mentioned before, I apologize. But unless you are absolutely sure you can find good homes for those possible puppies that might arrive before they are born (And by that I mean the proper way, through many interviews and written guidelines on returning the puppy, should it not prove to be a match) Providing all the first shots, deworming and possibly microchipping the pups (at your expense) I would get the dog neutered/spayed. There are too many unwanted puppies at the Humane Society and S.P.C.A from people who misguidedly thought it wasn't "natural" to perform a relatively simple operation, and didn't realize the perils. I remember meeting a 5 mo. old mix, from a farm out in the country. The owners were desperate to find homes for him and his 5 littermates. The poor things had never been in the house, never had seen a car, were not socialized at all and could not really fare anywhere except where they were. It was a shame that happened. Preventable as well. Unless you know what you are doing, you should not attempt to breed your pet. Again, just my opinion.
In an aside, spaying/neutering is actually a healthier choice for a pet, either male or female. Going through a heat cycle with no respite or release is not only frustrating, but potentially cruel. It lessens aggressiveness in males, and usually both sexes are calmer and more relaxed afterwards.

MIA
October 17th, 2008, 12:29 AM
LavenderRott said it, all the important stuff aside, LIVING with a bitch in heat is NO FUN. I guess if your wife sews maybe she can make the dog some cute diapers.. As much as I am a responsible owner and could easily take on the responsibility of living with a bitch, YOU COULDN'T PAY ME!!!!! It's bad enough when my horse is in heat and thank dog she lives in a barn.

On a side note, I just had in a 10 year old rescue who if I didn't spay would have been dead in a matter of weeks due to pyrometra, the vet showed me her 'bits' and I can't imagine the pain she suffered having it.

If anything it's convenient as hell to spay your dog.

P.S. Ethical breeders don't breed mutts....
:pawprint:

Hogansma
October 17th, 2008, 03:45 PM
I also agree that the over population of dogs is a huge factor in the decision making. How many posts say "Oops, my dog got pregnant", or something to that affect. I just got home from volunteering at the shelter and many people think that shelters are full of huge, untrained, vicious dogs. We have very sweet, young, healthy, beautiful dogs that can't find a home.


Please do the math considering an average litter of maybe 5 pups, over only a few generations to see how the dog population multiples very rapidly.

My dogs are ALWAYS fixed. No "if" "ands" or "buts". I hope you'll do the same.

BenMax
October 17th, 2008, 03:58 PM
I also agree that the over population of dogs is a huge factor in the decision making. How many posts say "Oops, my dog got pregnant", or something to that affect. I just got home from volunteering at the shelter and many people think that shelters are full of huge, untrained, vicious dogs. We have very sweet, young, healthy, beautiful dogs that can't find a home.


Please do the math considering an average litter of maybe 5 pups, over only a few generations to see how the dog population multiples very rapidly.

My dogs are ALWAYS fixed. No "if" "ands" or "buts". I hope you'll do the same.

It is heart wrenching when you have to see all these unwanted animals that are so loving and perfect in their own ways. The hard thing about shelters is you never know the next day how many are no longer there and you know why.

Bless you Hogansma for volunteering at your shelter. I no longer volunteer however do go by almost everyday to see where I can help in regards to rescue. Some days are more difficult than others. For those I could not help my heart is heavy.

I agree with you - I guess when you work in the middle of all this - you really only emphasis on what the right responsible thing is to do. For me as well - I always and will always get this procedure done - no questions about it. It has very little to do with 'convenience' - but more so with responsible pet ownership.

MIA
October 17th, 2008, 04:01 PM
You can always take your wife down to your local shelter on Euth day and have her hold dogs while they are killed. Then have her toss them in the garbage, because that's what they become thanks to our irresponsible, greedy society.

babymomma
October 17th, 2008, 04:05 PM
You can always take your wife down to your local shelter on Euth day and have her hold dogs while they are killed. Then have her toss them in the garbage, because that's what they become thanks to our irresponsible, greedy society.

Very blunt post. But sooo true.. Maybe you should just mention it to her and see what she says?!

bmxman
October 17th, 2008, 09:45 PM
You can always take your wife down to your local shelter on Euth day and have her hold dogs while they are killed. Then have her toss them in the garbage, because that's what they become thanks to our irresponsible, greedy society.

please stop...you're not helping me in any way with posts like these!...I'm looking for relevant information not jerking of heart strings.

babymomma
October 17th, 2008, 09:53 PM
I'm looking for relevant information not jerking of heart strings

Like it or not, that is realavent information- there was absoulutely nothing irelevant about it.. These animals turn into garbage because of people that think it is inhumane or unnatural to spay or nueter your pet. That my friend, is the cold, hard truth, and i do not expect it to change, anytime in the near future.

aslan
October 17th, 2008, 09:59 PM
babymomma he didn't say it was irrelevant, he said it's not helping. he came here to get the pro's and con's health wise on spaying his dog to convince his wife. He is all for having her spayed. A comment like hold them while putting them to sleep isn't going to get his wife to read this now is it.

babymomma
October 17th, 2008, 10:03 PM
Your right Aslan.. Im very Sorry For getting worked up Bmxman. Its just when i think about stuff like this it makes my blood boil and i cant really control myself:o Again, very sorry and i hope you can convince your wife to get her spayed.. Just make sure not to bring up how cute puppies are, because then you would definatly loose the case! lol:rolleyes:

bmxman
October 17th, 2008, 10:04 PM
Like it or not, that is realavent information- there was absoulutely nothing irelevant about it.. These animals turn into garbage because of people that think it is inhumane or unnatural to spay or nueter your pet. That my friend, is the cold, hard truth, and i do not expect it to change, anytime in the near future.

I'm more concerned about my puppy's health... My main concern is health risks to my dog...my wife's main concern is physically altering her dog just out of convenience to us.

my main concern!

bmxman
October 17th, 2008, 10:05 PM
A comment like hold them while putting them to sleep isn't going to get his wife to read this now is it.


thank you :)

bmxman
October 17th, 2008, 10:05 PM
Your right Aslan.. Im very Sorry For getting worked up Bmxman. Its just when i think about stuff like this it makes my blood boil and i cant really control myself:o Again, very sorry and i hope you can convince your wife to get her spayed.. Just make sure not to bring up how cute puppies are, because then you would definatly loose the case! lol:rolleyes:

no worries I know some people can be passionate about certain subjects...you should hear me talk about the medical industry..lol

babymomma
October 17th, 2008, 10:10 PM
no worries I know some people can be passionate about certain subjects...you should hear me talk about the medical industry..lol

haha, okay then.. lol. I reeeeaaally try my hardest not to sound snippy or rude, buts sometimes its just so darn hard! lol..
Again, i hope everythig woorks out for you! :thumbs up I'll be looking up some info for you to pass on to your wife, im taking my dog to the vet on monday and i could ask her to do a write up about the pros of spaying and pass the info on to you if you'd like! Because my girl will be getting spayed soon and i would like more info on it also! :thumbs up

aslan
October 17th, 2008, 10:17 PM
thank you :)

You're very welcome. I have followed this thread so far not responding. Of my 3 dogs 1 is neutered, one will be shortly. The third will be neutered within a few months we agreed to not have him done until he was two, long story but he is show dog on both sides of his family tree. I've owned both sexes and it truly is sad to watch a female in heat. I'm sure you and your wife will come to some understanding and it will be in your little girls best interest.

MommaKat
October 17th, 2008, 10:20 PM
please stop...you're not helping me in any way with posts like these!...I'm looking for relevant information not jerking of heart strings.

Um what did you expect??

The name of this thread is "should I get my dog spayed???" which, (in my opinion;) ) is asking for personal opinions. You are posting this on a pro spay/neuter forum so of course your going to get "jerking of heart strings"
Many of us either work/volunteer for rescues or adopted animals from rescues. So personal experiences/stories and desperate pleas of "SPAY YOUR DOG!" is what your going to get here.
:shrug:

MIA
October 18th, 2008, 01:10 AM
I would LOVE to apologize for my blunt suggestion but sadly I can't, I personally have had this job in a shelter and sitting in my home right now are two rescue dogs who were going to be euthanized at a local shelter so while you may feel it's blunt and too much, I feel until you have had my job of holding dogs while they die, loading a freezer, then burner and throwing the ashes out in the trash you can't understand how a simple question like yours just burns my heart.

There are health reasons, ethical reasons and common sense reasons to spay your dog, people have given you all of the above and I don't know what more you or your wife could want.

Every 2 seconds a dog is killed in North American shelters only because nobody wanted it. That should be enough reason right there.

Bruno is a reason (http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/bruno_0002.wmv)

flipgirl4
October 19th, 2008, 03:30 AM
I would LOVE to apologize for my blunt suggestion but sadly I can't, I personally have had this job in a shelter and sitting in my home right now are two rescue dogs who were going to be euthanized at a local shelter so while you may feel it's blunt and too much, I feel until you have had my job of holding dogs while they die, loading a freezer, then burner and throwing the ashes out in the trash you can't understand how a simple question like yours just burns my heart.

There are health reasons, ethical reasons and common sense reasons to spay your dog, people have given you all of the above and I don't know what more you or your wife could want.

Every 2 seconds a dog is killed in North American shelters only because nobody wanted it. That should be enough reason right there.

Bruno is a reason (http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/bruno_0002.wmv)


bmxman was only looking for the pros and cons of spaying/neutering. He never said he wasn't going to do it; in fact, he wants to get her spayed. He is just looking for evidence so he can show his wife. He's not breeding his dog; wouldn't you rather have someone ask about spaying/neutering now than after the dog's had puppies or whatever else can occur if she is not spayed?

While I think that those who are dedicated to dogs and work/volunteer in rescues/shelters and that have passion for them is valuable and admirable, I don't think it's fair for you to be rude or come down on him like an avalanche. bmxman knows you guys are passionate about dogs and that's why he's asking you. I also understand why it would be frustrating for you to have to see this stuff going on and wonder why people just don't get it. But it seems that bmxman does get it so you don't have to resort to drastic measures like suggesting his wife hold a dog being euthanized. It's your choice to be a part of that and while I commend that, don't use fear tactics to get your point across to someone who is genuinely asking for help. I know it's not just fear tactics but things that happen in real life but it's not like he's disagreed with anything.

bmxman, have you discussed this thread with your wife? There are a lot of good points and information and maybe this will help your wife see your side of the story.

14+kitties
October 19th, 2008, 08:14 AM
http://www.healthyhappydogs.com/Article.SpayingAndNeutering

http://www.cooldoghalloffame.com/dog-health/the-pros-and-cons-of-spaying/517

http://www.petlvr.com/blog/2008/04/spaying-your-female-dog/

... and there are many, many more articles I could find for you. Trying to give both sides of the story which is what you requested.

The biggest factor is -- Unless you can guarentee you will be with your dog 100% of the time in situations (including your safe, secure yard) where she can, and will, become pregnant then there is absolutely no justification for keeping her intact if, indeed, your wife is not looking at breeding her.

MIA
October 19th, 2008, 12:57 PM
Yes and he got a ton of replies, my patience ran out. In today's age, there are a million articles, he should have a vet and I am still a little shocked that the question needs to be asked.

Maybe if he, his wife and others like yourself walked a mile in the shoes of a shelter worker you would understand as I am sorry you don't get it until you have lived it.

Here's yet another article to read: http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/spay.htm

Melanie1010
October 19th, 2008, 02:41 PM
Our family Husky (this was in 2003- she was 9) got Pyometra.. my parents never got her spayed (I was 16 at the time.. there was nothing I could really do and wasnt as educated as I am now. I still regret not doing more to convince my parents to spay her at the time we got her.. but I was really young)...

In any case she developed Pyometra, we rushed her to the vet. She was given a 75% chance of survival if we did emergency surgery to remove her infected uterus and reproductive system. Of course my parents say yes lets do it... $4000!! dollars later, we take Zesty home. Her uterus burst on the operating table, and infected matter leaked into her abdominal cavity. After 6 days at the vet we took her home to continue on anti-biotics and the vet came to the house every 2 days to change her dressings. Fourteen days after her surgery... her liver and kidneys shut down from infection. We put her down the next day. At 16 years old I lost my best friend at the young age of 9.. she was healthy as could be until she got Pyometra. Overall, my parents spent close to 5000$ on surgery and care.. for what... when all they needed to do was SPAY her (these days.. not an overally costly surgery.. not that I am trying to focus on cost here.. im just trying to highlight the benefits of being PROACTIVE in caring for your pet!!)

All my parents had to do was spay our Zesty.. and maybe she would still be around... I miss her still terribly and I still cant wrap my head around why people dont spay and neuter.. its just common sense, unless you want to lose your pet the way I did, needlessly.

14+kitties
October 19th, 2008, 03:12 PM
Yes and he got a ton of replies, my patience ran out. In today's age, there are a million articles, he should have a vet and I am still a little shocked that the question needs to be asked.

Maybe if he, his wife and others like yourself walked a mile in the shoes of a shelter worker you would understand as I am sorry you don't get it until you have lived it.

Here's yet another article to read: http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/spay.htm

Where is Blue Blazes did you get the idea that I was trying to talk him into NOT spaying? Good ****, please check yourself! I in no way suggested he breed that dog! And if it wasn't me you were referring to then please make use of the quote button to quote the one you were.

kathryn
October 19th, 2008, 03:52 PM
Melanie1010, sorry for your loss :( I know this can happen and actually is not uncommon at all. How much do you imagine it would have cost to spayed her when she was little? Just for an example.


http://www.thepetcenter.com/sur/pyo.html

There's a very good article I just found.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyometra
Pyometra is a disease of the uterus most commonly seen in female dogs (bitches), but also seen in queens (female cats), rabbits, ferrets, rats and guinea pigs. Pyometra is an important disease to be aware of for any dog owner because of the sudden nature of the disease and the deadly consequences if left untreated. It has been compared to acute appendicitis in humans, because both are essentially empyemas within an abdominal organ.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+1629&aid=918

http://www.thepetcenter.com/sur/pyo4.jpg

I dunno what your opinion of that is, but personally I don't think that's too pretty.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80gNPiTK9Ug
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNVjikwKnQU

ancientgirl
October 19th, 2008, 04:27 PM
Where is Blue Blazes did you get the idea that I was trying to talk him into NOT spaying? Good ****, please check yourself! I in no way suggested he breed that dog!

14+, you are the LAST person on this board who suggest breeding.

14+kitties
October 19th, 2008, 05:14 PM
14+, you are the LAST person on this board who suggest breeding.

Thanks for the support ancient. I sure felt like someone was saying I was promoting it. :rolleyes: I guess they haven't followed my story at all. :shrug:

Melanie1010
October 19th, 2008, 06:26 PM
Thanks Kathryn, I felt I should share the story, just to show how important spaying or neutering can be as preventative care. We got Zesty in '93.. so I have no idea back then what it would of cost, I can certainly say spaying would of saved us losing our girl so early in life (at 9 she still had alot of life left!) and in such a painful way and well... money in the long run (though my parents dont regret the decision to do surgery at all, i wish we had never had to make that choice). We were lucky we even caught that Zesty was sick, she hid it very very well. She was so sick, so very sick.. all for what?? It still sickens me to think we could of prevented her illness and how sick she got, with a simple procedure. When I adopted Nitro, I had him neutered within days (I adopted him from a family who was re-homing him) and I am so thankful for the piece of mind of having removed the risk of so many diseases and unwanted behaviours.

The benefits of spaying or neutering are way too long to list, and I think everyone in this thread has provided enough info for the OP to weight their decision. This thread, along with a vets advice AND common sense... should make the choice pretty easy.

Frenchy
October 19th, 2008, 06:36 PM
The benefits of spaying or neutering are way too long to list, and I think everyone in this thread has provided enough info for the OP to weight their decision. This thread, along with a vets advice AND common sense... should make the choice pretty easy.

Exactly , I can't believe this thread is on page 4 now. For something as simple a spaying / neutering. There shouldn't be any question about it.

14+kitties
October 19th, 2008, 06:59 PM
Exactly , I can't believe this thread is on page 4 now. For something as simple a spaying / neutering. There shouldn't be any question about it.

Well said Frenchy! I think we have heard enough now.

onster
October 19th, 2008, 10:37 PM
14+, you are the LAST person on this board who suggest breeding.

Exactly , I can't believe this thread is on page 4 now. For something as simple a spaying / neutering. There shouldn't be any question about it.

Agreed on both counts.

I applaud all the members for their patience.............

Bmxman..I'm not trying to be mean, but were going in circles - no new points being brought up. As such, the thread should be wrapped up IMO*. I hope your discussion with your wife proves fruitful, let us know how it goes.

* Since there is no new info being presented, I don't think that its in the best interest of this board to have an exceedingly long thread about spaying/neutering. If this thread continues to grow, it will be a hindrance to new members who don't realize its all repetition and just want to get the facts which have already been very well presented in the first pages. I realize personal stories have been added (thanks for sharing guys!) but they are just reiterating the same theme.

flipgirl4
October 20th, 2008, 01:30 AM
Yes and he got a ton of replies, my patience ran out. In today's age, there are a million articles, he should have a vet and I am still a little shocked that the question needs to be asked.

Maybe if he, his wife and others like yourself walked a mile in the shoes of a shelter worker you would understand as I am sorry you don't get it until you have lived it.

Here's yet another article to read: http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/spay.htm

If it is me to whom you are replying, if I was to ask anyone's opinion, I wouldn't ask you if that is your attitude. Like I said in my post, I commend those who work at rescues/shelters as they are the people saving these poor animals. But as I also said, bmxman said he wanted to spay his dog so he is not disagreeing with you. Have your opinion, but to bully someone who already agrees with you is useless. And I have gone to rescues and shelters and seen the number of unwanted puppies and kittens. I also agree that pets should be spayed/neutered but I don't believe in bullying to get your opinion across. Especially since both bmxman and myself agree with you.

I also agree that this subject should be closed.

bmxman
October 21st, 2008, 07:22 PM
Many pieces of veterinary research exist to show that is absolutely untrue. Spaying (and neutering) has risks and benefits as does virtually any operation. The trick is deciding which are the more important for you and your dog in the situation you live in.

Here are some links that may help guide you to the decision that is right for you. When I went through this I disussed these articles with my Vet.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/pdf/10.2460/javma.231.11.1665

Below is an excerpt from the last link. I urge you to read the whole link.





http://users.lavalink.com.au/theos/Spay-neuter.htm#vacc

finally got around to reading it all good stuff LB:thumbs up

IluvZeus
October 25th, 2008, 10:30 AM
I dunno..just reading that sticky about Sam should be enough to convince everybody to spay and neuter their pets..

bmxman
October 26th, 2008, 12:52 AM
I dunno..just reading that sticky about Sam should be enough to convince everybody to spay and neuter their pets..

well so far we're not going forward with it at this point...but we may change our stance in the future.

Frenchy
October 26th, 2008, 12:58 AM
bad , bad decision.

happycats
October 26th, 2008, 03:08 PM
How very sad :sad: Your wife of all people should know better as you claim she helped at the SPCA.
She sounds like a very selfish and controlling person, I do wish you luck, as I don't believe your life with her will be easy, since she will be in charge of the decisions. :sad:

ancientgirl
October 26th, 2008, 03:13 PM
I'm sorry, but I have a feeling your decision was already made. It's obvious you had little say in this and I wish your dog much luck and a healthy future.

totallyhip
October 26th, 2008, 03:44 PM
I agree that your dog should be spayed. Could you ask your wife to re-think her decision? Maybe after doing some more research? Speak to your vet? Thanks!

ancientgirl
October 26th, 2008, 05:12 PM
totallyhip, he's got more than enough information. Have a look at this entire thread, he's been supplied with plenty of links.

I think at this point, this discussion is probably over.

erykah1310
October 26th, 2008, 06:32 PM
I agree I'm sure minds were made up already before all the great links.

To the OP, keep your eye out for males and pyometra, good luck with all the rest of the fun with an unaltered female in the house.

One thing I want to comment on from oh... page 1 is the list of pro's and cons
I'm curious, if cancer can not be 100% certainly linked to anything in humans... why is it it can for dogs?
By spaying my dog, and it ends up with one of the cancers listed. its automatically from the spay?
I dont buy it.
What if I am a smoker, smoking like a chimmney in the house, what if they ate foods like pedigree or purina their entire life, what if ... *insert any enviromental factor that is a believed cause or link to cancer here*??
None of that matters because in the dog world spaying is the main cause for these cancers?
Not buying it.

hazelrunpack
October 26th, 2008, 06:44 PM
Way back when we were doing the research, what we found were studies that basically compared stats on what appears in intact dogs and what appears in dogs that have been s/n...some of them broke the s/n group into early s/n and late s/n. Then they just compared frequencies of the cancers/conditions that appeared. Some things occur with similar frequences in both intact and s/n dogs; some show different frequencies; and sometimes the early s/n group showed different frequencies than late s/n.

But you're right--you never really can tell if one has anything to do with the other. However, there were some similar findings in multiple studies. :shrug:

Frequencies are very important to look at. For instance, pyometras and false pregnancies are more common by a long shot than any increase in frequency of a cancer. And pyometras are often just as deadly. So eliminating risk of pyometra in a female through spaying would outweigh the miniscule risk of some cancer appearing later in life.

bmxman
October 27th, 2008, 03:01 AM
I'm done with this board...you folks are making broad assumptions and now you people are going to take shots at my wife!!

Capt. Jack
October 27th, 2008, 05:58 AM
Again, this thread has run it's course.