July 15th, 2004, 09:47 PM
I'm starting this thread not out of disrespect to anyone, or to have it escalate into something so many threads before have.
The reason I am, is like quite a few people who used to frequent these forums in the past, I am at wits end with the non sense. Honestly, I am about to leave.
This personal bashing is just ignorant and wrong. I can not understand how people can bring themselves down to these level's. Big deal, someones older, or younger. First pet, or twentyeth(sp?), this in my eye's does not give somebody the right to enforce they way they chose to do things as the spoken word of god so to say.
Pet's in crates for over 4 hours cruel? My dad's Brittany still sleeps in the crate at night , for 8 whole hours! Being tied up? at the house, yes he is if no one is outside with him. Why? because he runs, chases deer, which is illegal! Is he aggresive, not a chance. Will this make him aggressive, no.
Ya, I'm only 25, guess what, In all right's I guess you could say I have 25 years of experience raising and caring for dog's. Does this make me an expert? Nope, not by any means, but I do feel I have knowledge from what I've seen first hand, researched, and have had taught to me by others in my circle of family, and friends.
There are alot of people on this forum with very helpfull personalities, I do feel that some need to portray this help in a more linear fashion though. If someone was to just stick something down their throat as the only way to do things, I seriously doubt that they would react as kindly towards it as they think others should unto them.
Think of kids for example, was I raised to the text book definition of a perfect childhood, nope. My picture is probably in there for a few examples of what not to do. Did I turn out mean, aggressive, bad....not as of yet. Am
I going to? I seriously doubt it.
I do realize I'm going on and on, but I've held onto alot of this distaste while holding my tongue for quite some time now.
For the young one that alot of people bit into that had the hamster that they were not willing to shell out money on vet bills for because the little critter only cost $5. Guess what, mabey I am mean, bad, what ever...At a certain extent I would not be able to justify it either. Does this mean that I need to grow up, never have a pet again in my life? Or does it just mean that I have grown up, and can recognize where I should place my resources in life. God know's they are not vast.
I am in no way saying that everyone here should cuddle one another for every post written, but let's try to keep all this hate from escalateting to the points it so often does. We must remember that we are reflecting very adversely on our Country as well, or have you not noticed, the board is part of pets.ca As a general statement, alot of things on this board percieve Canadians in a very dull light. I atleast feel this is what Canada is not about.
People bashing on Heidi, just drop it, your all as much to blame as anyone else is. From the start it was convincing her to keep the dog, then to get rid of it, then to keep it... I really don't know how much more back and forth was proposed as I stopped reading those threads when it got back to that point.
I guess the responses to this thread are what is going to gauge my return, or my departure on. I don't want people to feel they have to explain themselve's by any means, all I ask for is to take a look at whats going on. Think before you post, heck read it over a few times before you post it. Let's make this board the better place it should be, so that mabey we can help make atleast part of this world a better place for the animals we chose to so dearly love.
July 15th, 2004, 10:13 PM
I would just like to say Amen to your post. I know am not the perfect dog owner in some peoples eyes but I do care for them alot. I know I have posted things people did not like either has as question for help or trying to give advice to help. I don't post in here alot for fear of getting jumped on. I applaud you for putting this post up and I hope it helps people think before they type. thats all.
July 15th, 2004, 10:17 PM
CAUTION CONTAINS GRAPHIC PICTURES!!!!!!!!!!!!
First off I understand your reason for posting this. However I do disagree with you with regards to chaining a dog up. As for crating overnight, this is different, the dog is asleep. However they can be trained to sleep with the crate door open or be trusted to sleep in other areas of the home as well, not just the crate.
I understand your position about worrying about the dog running loose, this is why there are fencing products available.
Please don't just accept this as gospel from me, I will provide you with information from several credible sources to read, then humbly will withdrawl from this thread.
There are several communities who are supporting and trying to pass legislation which prevents people from chaining there dogs as well.
Dogs are naturally social beings who thrive on interaction with human beings and other animals. A dog kept chained in one spot for hours, days, months, or even years suffers immense psychological damage. An otherwise friendly and docile dog, when kept continuously chained, becomes neurotic, unhappy, anxious, and often aggressive. In many cases, the necks of chained dogs become raw and covered with sores, the result of improperly fitted collars and the dogs' constant yanking and straining to escape confinement. Dogs have even been found with collars embedded in their necks, the result of years of neglect at the end of a chain. In one case, a veterinarian had to euthanize a dog whose collar, an electrical cord, was so embedded in the animal's neck that it was difficult to see the plug.
Chaining means confining a dog with a tether attached usually to a doghouse or a stake in the ground. It is one of the commonest forms of animal cruelty; yet, it has received little attention from many humane societies. Chaining is a widespread practice and - as with many historical injustices - this may cause people to assume it is acceptable. In fact, it is an improper way to confine a dog, with negative effects on the dog’s health, temperament, and training. A chained dog’s life is a lonely, frustrating, miserable existence, without opportunities for even the most basic dog behaviours of running and sniffing in their own fenced yard. And in too many cases, the neck area is constantly irritated or sore from improperly fitted collars and the constant yanking and straining of their necks in their desperate attempts to escape confinement.
GRAPHIC IMAGES CONTAINED BELOW
People tend to train and care for dogs in the way they saw their parents perform this task. As a result, many people chain dogs because that's what they've been taught, passing on this cruel practice without any real understanding of canine behavior
The final word is that chaining doesn't work - except to serve as a form of confinement that is easy for the owner but cruel for the animal. Chained dogs are miserable, and their owners are often frustrated. At WHS, we believe it's time for a change of attitude: Chaining is not an acceptable practice. It's a long-overlooked form of cruelty that must be stopped.
The ideal time for a dog to be chained or tethered is when you are at the other end. However, there are times when dogs may be tethered while you are busy but near by. Such situations include a picnic lunch. If your dog is not reliable at the "Down Stay" command, it is necessary to tether his leash to the picnic table so that you can enjoy your lunch without having to constantly stare at your dog and re-command him to "Down." Also, if you like to take your dog with you while you're doing yard work in your unfenced yard, tethering him in the shade nearby where you are working will allow your dog to be outside with you and keep you company at the same time. These tie-outs are short-lived and always under supervision. They can be advantageous to you and your dog because it allows you to take him more places, and it allows your dog the opportunity to accompany you and participate in your activities. This is the proper way to tether or chain your dog.
July 15th, 2004, 10:29 PM
Luba, the crate door is left open, he is free to sleep where ever, he choses the crate. As for the chaining, the pics that you posted are signs of animal neglect/abuse. Are you trying to say that if one is to tie their dog up outside they are infact neglecting it to these extents? Rocky know's how far his line goes, and he stops a couple of feet from the end. He is also not left outside constantly. For the fencing, how much will it run for 17 acres of this fence? just curious as that is the size of their yard. I am pretty sure you have seen pictures of Rocky on this forum, he is a very well adjusted dog. I know that I am unwilling to try to convince you otherwise, but pls. take into account that the vast majority of these horror stories your reporting from, are coming from the vast minority of pet owners, and mostly humain societies.
- edited for clarity
July 15th, 2004, 11:39 PM
for the record, I have not EVER done that my Chocolate.
When he is/was leashed/chained to something/someone, he either had a Collar or a Halti/Gentle Lead or a body harness.
I went as far as a prong collar, but this thread isn't to be hi-jacked, start a new thread if you (anyone in general) must. :rolleyes:
Chris, thanks for your input, I hope you do decide to stay on this board. You gotta filter out the dirt, pick and choose the good parts (like chicken). ;) lol.
I don't think it'll ever be possible to find a board that's exclusively warm and inviting. I haven't heard of any that exist... maybe they're all a big secret to us outsiders. ;)
I'm no one's role model, not even my kids. :rolleyes: But I try to maintain my personal standards and be the person who I want to be.
As the song (I think it was a song :o ) goes, I am what I am... what else could I be...
July 16th, 2004, 12:51 AM
I posted this on another thread a couple of days ago (about a kid who is asking questions about how to raise his new jindo puppy). It was never responded to, so I was happy to read this thread and find out I'm not the only one.
I've been to Jindo -- it's an island in Korea, where the Jindo dogs originated from. Lovely place... lots of Jindo dogs -- all of them outdoor pets. Of course, I almost always saw at least two dogs together, hardly ever just one. Perhaps they need company and that's why you're all suggesting it be raised inside?
By the way, a lot of you have excellent advice, but I think it would be better heeded if it was given in a kinder sort of tone. This kid is obviously doing his (or her) best, even bothering to find this forum and ask questions -- even before getting the dog. Give the kid a break.
In a perfect world everyone would do all their research before they get their puppy and then they would know exactly what to do. But humans are animals too, and are insanely flawed. Plus, most people have some experience with raising a pet, and that experience can give them some false sense of confidence that they know what they are doing -- when really their methods are outdated. I'm finding out that a lot of things I was sure are okay are not recommended (like alpha rolls, although I think it works with my little guy) even though I DID do a lot of research before I got my puppy AND I do have experience with raising puppies from my childhood.
If you really want to help people and their lovely pets, please consider phrasing your advice a little differently. That way, people will gladly take your advice, and will come back here when they have more questions. Otherwise, people will just get turned off and the pets will suffer. I've already been helped out a lot on this forum and am so glad that I found it. But I'm a little dismayed by all the bickering that goes on here. I hope that I don't end up finding myself in a quarrel from saying this...but I trust that my words will be regarded as peaceful.
July 16th, 2004, 12:55 AM
This board is somewhat akin to riding a public transit authority bus.
From day to day you never know who is on or what their mood is.
You can get on and during your ride there will be those who you just know from previous experience are going to go off the deep in (in my humble opinion) on certain subjects. Everyone seems to have the animal's best interests at heart but their ability, or lack there of, to express those versions with out calling someone all but a dumba** appears to be the problem.
Emotions run high on this board and some people jump to conclusions and even make accusations without really knowing the facts--for sure.
As several great persons have said before it is better to keep your mouth shut and thought to be ignorant than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
There are a lot of experienced owner's and pet care givers on this board and everyone should feel welcomed and allowed to participate without fear of someone Taking pot shots at their opinions or methods.
What works in some instances and for some people may not be what others would consider optimum care but hardly constututes poor ownership or abuse or unloving care.
KD I think your post is timely and I agree with much of what you state. Do I think it will calm the waters of this board-?-NO.
Boards are like people and the board's personality is a composite of the persons on it and their collective personalities.
Thread hi-jacking is an art form and sometimes becomes a spectator sport--Too Bad but it happens.
July 16th, 2004, 03:30 AM
Thanks Kona! I honestly did not know what the ".ca" in "pets.ca" meant! And no, I'm not kidding or being sarcastic. When I was browsing the threads during my first few days here, I actually thought to myself "Wow, there are a lot of people from Canada who post on this site" LOL!!!
*Feeling foolish* :o
Anyway, I don't want to hijack your thread, so back to the topic at hand.
Your posting was obviously very well thought out and not written in haste, or as an emotional outburst. And maybe you are right. Maybe others should do the same. Regardless of whether people agree or disagree with what you said here, you are to be commended for the maturity you've shown.
I do hope you remain a member, as there is much invaluable advice to be found here, nonetheless.
Woody, your "public transport" analogy was right on the money!!! Loved it.
July 16th, 2004, 06:12 AM
I COMPLETELY agree with you KD. People don't get on here asking questions if they don't care about their animals...but just because everyone's lifestyles are not the same, doesn't make one worse.
As for the chaining....I also agree....they pictures and the extent that Luba is talking about IS cruelty...however, what WE are talking about is NOT. She might disagree....but how you say it and push it is the factor in which displays the kind of person you are. People take more advice and learn more by a gentler approach. I for one, realized that Dixie might need more attention and exersize, so I started to try and provide that. HOWEVER, Luba did not make me listen to her at all (although she has some good advice and care and concern on some other posts).
But...to you point of disrespect, I agree. And, yes this is a post...public post....so, morally, when people are degrading and cruel with remarks, I will refuse to take part in it and watch it too. I am a "newbie" and learn a lot on this site, however, will also be leaving if the "attacks" don't stop.
Everyone gets hurt and upset when an animal is viciously attacked, but just like those cruel animals who are attacking other animals, sometimes these people are doing the same.
July 16th, 2004, 01:02 PM
What wonderfully thought out posts. http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/spezial/Fool/appl.gif
And almost all of the points brought up pertain to "life lesson's", not just message board behaviour.
Have a fantastic weekend everyone!
July 16th, 2004, 01:33 PM
Very well said to all,i myself will try and not to get ugly here anymore,i only do so in defending myself...
July 16th, 2004, 02:29 PM
You know? This board is kind of like a family. We're all similar and we're all different. What family do you know that doesn't have their squabbles? But when something bad happens to a member, you all come together like you did for me yesterday. The suggestion to think about our posts & reread thru them is a good one. Kind of like counting to 10. I may not always agree, and I may sit back and observe sometimes because the issue may not be one I've had to deal with, but sometimes I can contribute. For sure, I won't be leaving! I feel like I'm constantly learning something and constantly thinking about other issues I never thought about before. In short, it's educational and gives me a few different perspectives.