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Starting all over again with Nelly

Frenchy
July 24th, 2008, 09:08 PM
My poor Nelly :sad: for those who don't know , Nelly is a great dane from a puppy mill , legally , she is still my foster , not legally mine. She has been here since February 2007. She was not abuse (not that I know of) but like any dog from a puppy mill , she lacked of human contact. So she would get scared sometimes , would have submissive pee , was hard to housetrain and has separation anxiety.

She was doing lot better , just got scared when me or someone would come in the house holding a box or something big. :shrug:

But now , she is not doing good. The only thing I can think of is this : since Chloe has been here .... Chloe barks A LOT ! I never scream at her to stop her (she'll think I'm barking too) but I do have to raise my voice a bit sometimes. And I think that's what Nelly doesn't like. I also started to try to cut her nails myself , she pees if I get near her with the cutters , then she rans away. She was scared of my bro , who got in the house with a cooler when he last visited , she usually calms down but she kept away from him all day. :confused: oh and she also started to destroy things in the house when I'm at work. She hasn't been crated for ... about 2 months and WAS doing good.

She pooped in the living when I was at work , 3 out of 4 days this week. She is now sometimes scared of going outside just because I'm near the door. :sad:

So I'm trying to teach Chloe a sign when I want her to stop barking. But it's hard because I'm not always beside her. :shrug:

But I think I need to give some natural remedy to Nelly , because it kills me to see her this way , she really looks like an abuse dog sometimes. Does rescue remedy be given everyday ? And would I have to give her some many times a day (which would be impossible when I'm at work) I really can't stand to see her this way. :sad:

Frenchy
July 24th, 2008, 09:14 PM
Oh and I forgot to add , Bailey is very submissive (now he might have been badly treated before I adopted him) and he is being a bit weird these days too (I have such sensible dogs :wall:) maybe I should just let Chloe barks her head off. :shrug:

pitgrrl
July 24th, 2008, 09:19 PM
There's no harm in giving Rescue Remedy everyday, but it's more for "emergencies" or short term stress. For longer term, or constant stressers, a specific Bach Flower remedy would probably be a better choice. Those you usually give 3 or 4 times a day in their water for a few weeks.

I have a book on using Bach Flower remedies with animals, let me look some stuff up tonight and tell you what I find later.

wdawson
July 24th, 2008, 09:20 PM
so sorry to hear of this setback frenchy.....nelly looks so happy in the pics you post......i have no idea what to do..:shrug:....sorry

hazelrunpack
July 24th, 2008, 09:22 PM
Well, if you let Chloe bark her head off, you'll need ear plugs or you'll damage your hearing... :shrug:

For cats they have diffusers that release the calming agent continuously all day, don't they? Could you use something like that? Or am I totally misunderstanding what a 'diffuser' is? :o

:grouphug: It's not like you haven't got enough on your plate, Frenchy. :grouphug:

14+kitties
July 24th, 2008, 09:22 PM
I'm with wd. I have no ideas either. Just really sorry for the backtracking for poor Nelly. :grouphug: to the big sweetie.

btw :offtopic: my brother and sister in law LOVE her!! I showed them her pics last night when I stayed the night there. :thumbs up

luckypenny
July 24th, 2008, 09:23 PM
:grouphug:

I don't know if this will be of any comfort to you, but Lucky will revert back to his old ways when there's change in the home too. He doesn't get like this with all the foster puppies, just one or two :shrug: .

I know that with time, Nelly will get back to "normal." Just continue doing what you've always been doing with her and you'll see, she just needs some time to adjust.

luckypenny
July 24th, 2008, 09:26 PM
For cats they have diffusers that release the calming agent continuously all day, don't they? Could you use something like that? Or am I totally misunderstanding what a 'diffuser' is? :o



They have those for dogs too but are extremely expensive. Many ppl I've spoken to who've used them claimed they didn't make a difference :shrug: . I think they're called D.A.P.

pitgrrl
July 24th, 2008, 09:27 PM
For cats they have diffusers that release the calming agent continuously all day, don't they? Could you use something like that? Or am I totally misunderstanding what a 'diffuser' is? :o


They do have them for dogs, it's called a D.A.P diffuser. In Quebec they're only available through vets though, so you'd have to ask them to order it for you.

Frenchy
July 24th, 2008, 09:31 PM
so sorry to hear of this setback frenchy.....nelly looks so happy in the pics you post......i have no idea what to do..:shrug:....sorry
I know ... she is happy as long as I am very very happy all the time. :shrug: but even if I give a simple command , she goes all submissive. :sad:

For cats they have diffusers that release the calming agent continuously all day, don't they? Could you use something like that? Or am I totally misunderstanding what a 'diffuser' is? :o


They have it for dogs too , but it's about $70.00 + you have to change the refill once a month (I think) and the refill is about $30-$40 :sad:


btw :offtopic: my brother and sister in law LOVE her!! I showed them her pics last night when I stayed the night there. :thumbs up
awww , tell them thanks :)
:grouphug:

I don't know if this will be of any comfort to you, but Lucky will revert back to his old ways when there's change in the home too.

When you posted about him being scared of going through the door ... yep , exact thing here but not all the time. It just happens more now.

aslan
July 24th, 2008, 09:52 PM
aaaaw poor Nelly, i will never understand how people can treat these animals the way they do and think its ok.

joeysmama
July 24th, 2008, 09:59 PM
Oh the poor thing. I have no advice but I can sympathize. Joey was probably abused. We have no idea of what his life was like before he was found on the highway--no collar no tags, completely unkempt and frightened. :sad:

Just when we thought he had finally relaxed and we were past all the issues he'd revert. There never seemed to be a reason. It would be six months of progress and then out of no where we were back at square one. It broke my heart.


I hope that poor Nelly starts to feel confident. :grouphug: for Frenchy !

and :fingerscr for no more poop in the house ! I can't even imagine cleaning up Great Dane poop. That's a big job.:laughing:

Frenchy
July 24th, 2008, 10:07 PM
Just continue doing what you've always been doing with her and you'll see, she just needs some time to adjust.
Sometimes I think it may be because I baby her too much ? But i couldn't do it any other way.


Just when we thought he had finally relaxed and we were past all the issues he'd revert.
and :fingerscr for no more poop in the house ! I can't even imagine cleaning up Great Dane poop. That's a big job.:laughing:

It's very hard to miss her poop in the middle of the living room :laughing: (thank dog for the carpet cleaner machine!!!) So I'm not alone .... those dogs do "go back" sometimes ....

oh and this week , (I posted this in the TJT) she was sleeping and woke up yelping , just one cry , got up with her paw in the air , when I went to look , she ran away from me and went into the bedroom , she heard me getting near and peed on my bed ... so again I babied her , ask her if she wanted a treat , she got up all happy and running without any pain !! :confused:

Chaser
July 24th, 2008, 10:12 PM
I'm sorry to hear Nelly is having such a hard time Frenchy. She's such a beautiful girl and it's sad to hear she is feeling so scared all the time :sad:

I have no advice though....I'm just learning about these things myself :shrug:

Lots of :goodvibes::goodvibes::goodvibes: for you and Nelly!

hazelrunpack
July 24th, 2008, 10:29 PM
If you teach Chloe to bark on command, it's a fairly easy transition to 'No barking' (or so I've heard! :laughing: Our dogs don't believe in not barking when a chorus of barks will do. :dog:) If you think Nelly is responding to the extra noise, perhaps that would help. Do you think Chloe barks all day?

:fingerscr Nelly is just reverting in response to the newness of having Chloe around. Macie was sort of the same when Brier and Grace came--she was especially put off by Brier and it took a while before she'd play with him. At the time I noticed that she was a little less sure of herself. When she finally realized that she could hold her own against Bratty Brier and started playing with him in earnest, she went back to her better-adjusted self. :D

It's a pity that the DAP is so expensive. :frustrated: Too expensive to experiment with...

:goodvibes: for the Frenchy household! :grouphug:

Jim Hall
July 24th, 2008, 11:02 PM
good luck its always frustrating but I am syre nelly will be back to herself im sure your are givingngh er lots of loving

krdahmer
July 25th, 2008, 12:21 AM
Aw poor Nelly... :2huggers: I'm sure you'll get it all figured out Frenchy... with all that love in your house, she'll come around again. Maybe it's just finally realizing that Chloe is staying and that she has to share you more? Or all the summer action... or who knows, maybe if she woke up in a state like that she was having a nightmare about something that happened to her before? (Buddy gets nippy sometimes and doesn't like to be held, like when I first took him in after he was being manhandled by those kids- maybe pets have flashbacks sort of like us or someone in 'nam?) Give her some big snuggles for me and the kitties! :grouphug:

Love4himies
July 25th, 2008, 06:47 AM
Awww poor Nelly, can't offer any advice but will give you a :grouphug:

lotus
July 25th, 2008, 07:07 AM
That's so sad. I can't offer any help as I am new to mill rescues and just wing it. I hope it's just a phase.:grouphug:for Nelly

Sylvie
July 25th, 2008, 09:18 AM
Frenchy, :sorry:, poor Nelly, poor you. I am sure she will come back with your wonderful care, Unfortunately, don't have any advice, however, do you think it might be this terrible weather that has caused her to slip back.

I know on Wednesday, stayed home because Briar is afraid of thunder and thought it might give him a break. Well, when it stared, it seemed that all of my dogs went a little nuts. Starting with Briar, then Greta then the other 2. I was ready to throw them out :eek::eek: JUST KIDDING. The thunder was extremely loud and even made me jump and I am thinking that it had to bother even the dogs that do not have a fear of storms.

I am sure you are getting the same weather, and thought maybe this was what the trigger was. It could have been too much for Nelly:sad:

ancientgirl
July 25th, 2008, 11:26 AM
Frenchy, I'm sorry your are having issues like that with Nelly.

I don't know if this will help, but I found this online. It' has DAP for $17.99. That's the US price. Maybe they ship to Canada.

Frenchy
July 25th, 2008, 11:31 AM
it's sad to hear she is feeling so scared all the time :sad:


Not all the time but more than usual ... I thought it could only go better :shrug: not the other way around.
If you teach Chloe to bark on command,

I think that would be extremely easy , it's the shutting up part she doesn't want to :laughing: she barks when she's happy and she's always happy :laughing:

Maybe it's just finally realizing that Chloe is staying and that she has to share you more?
I don't think so (I had a couple of fosters since I have Nelly and never had any problems ) but you never know ....

The thunder was extremely loud and even made me jump and I am thinking that it had to bother even the dogs that do not have a fear of storms.




So far Nelly never showed sign of fear of thunder. Bailey and Chloe do. Nelly was kept in a barn , 24/7 , no electricity , so I guess she got use to thunder , now that she lives inside a real house , she may think thunder is nothing compare to when there was a storm , when she was living in the barn... have you ever tried Rescue Remedy for your dogs Sylvie ? LP gave me some and I tried it 2-3 times on Bailey and Chloe , I saw an improvement :thumbs up

Lissa
July 25th, 2008, 01:51 PM
But now , she is not doing good. The only thing I can think of is this : since Chloe has been here .... Chloe barks A LOT ! I never scream at her to stop her (she'll think I'm barking too) but I do have to raise my voice a bit sometimes. And I think that's what Nelly doesn't like. I also started to try to cut her nails myself , she pees if I get near her with the cutters , then she rans away. She was scared of my bro , who got in the house with a cooler when he last visited , she usually calms down but she kept away from him all day. :confused: oh and she also started to destroy things in the house when I'm at work. She hasn't been crated for ... about 2 months and WAS doing good.

She pooped in the living when I was at work , 3 out of 4 days this week. She is now sometimes scared of going outside just because I'm near the door. :sad:

I don't know how much you've tried with Nelly but fear based behaviours need intense desensitization work and even so, the success rate (in severe cases) isn't the greatest.
Our last dog, who was from a puppy mill too was just like Nelly, Cassie was afraid of everything and everyone (nobody but family could approach her and any "loud" noise would send her cowering). She spent most of her life avoiding social interaction:sad:... Neither desensitization nor counter-conditioning nor calming remedies worked with Cassie - even sedatives barely took effect when she was in full-fledged fear mode. However, I was much younger and completely clueless when it came to positive reinforcement training so while I doubt that Cassie could have been "fixed" completely, I think some of her fears could have been lessened.

You often need to tackle one behaviour at a time and slowly build confidence. With regards to the nail clippers, an idea would be to leave them lying around in her "safe spots"... Now this has to be done carefully and at her pace because the last thing you want to do is make her fear the very few places she likes. But for instance, if she has a special bed, perhaps leave nail clippers to the side of the bed with a fantastic treat on/beside them. She may avoid them like the plague the first few times but if nothing bad happens, you may find that the treat disappears eventually. The idea is to turn them into something she sees everyday (oh its just those again) AND something that she gets rewarded for seeing (oh last time I saw those I got something yummy, let's look for them!). With an average dog, I would usually recommend pulling out the clippers when you are cuddling or perhaps leaving the clippers in the middle of the room and slowly approaching them together. However, with Nelly's fears - I think its would be best that she makes the first move and that she doesn't associate scary things with you.
With a fearful dog, this could take weeks and they may never accept it but its worth a shot.
Something to remember is that even if she learns that clippers on the ground are safe, each time you change the context (ie: the location of the clippers) she will likely revert back to being afraid because she hasn't learned that they are not to be feared in that context.
Basically this concept can be applied to everything that she's afraid of - although it is a lot of work for minimal amounts of success.

Having said that, my Cassie was terrified of going downstairs. She refused to use stairs for the first 2 years of her life. It took me 2 years to get her to follow me down our basement stairs and the day she did will be one of the most memorable moments of my entire life. The amount of courage it must have taken her to finally do it brings tears to my eyes - if only I could be that brave! So while you don't have any guarantee of success - even the smallest of successes are worth all the effort with fearful dogs!:grouphug:

Good luck with Nelly! BTW - regressions are quite normal - it sounds like Chloe's barking could be part of it but there doesn't have to be a reason for a regression (it just means that the dog is learning)!

aslan
July 25th, 2008, 02:05 PM
Frenchy i was wondering about clicker training chloe not to bark. Each time you tell her " no bark' click the clicker, hopefully eventually all you'd have to do is click and she'd stop. No more raised voice hopefully will help nelly.

Frenchy
July 25th, 2008, 08:52 PM
even the smallest of successes are worth all the effort with fearful dogs!:grouphug:



This is what got to me , she did make so much progress ! I was so proud of her , didn't need the crate anymore (she would do a little destruction like once every 2 weeks but nothing big) I never thought it could go downhill ! :sad:

BTW she pooped again in the living room today.

Frenchy
July 25th, 2008, 08:53 PM
Frenchy i was wondering about clicker training chloe not to bark. Each time you tell her " no bark' click the clicker, hopefully eventually all you'd have to do is click and she'd stop. No more raised voice hopefully will help nelly.

It's worth a try :crazy: does pet food store carry clickers ?

aslan
July 25th, 2008, 08:54 PM
Some do as far as i know, ask winston she uses one and would know better.

Winston
July 25th, 2008, 08:58 PM
Frenchy Petsmart sells them! If you cant find one I think my friend Sylvie (member here) will know where to get ahold of one! :thumbs up

aslan
July 25th, 2008, 09:00 PM
If not, i'll grab you one and send it to you, i have connections in purolater....

14+kitties
July 25th, 2008, 09:10 PM
Just a wild guess. Could she be picking up vibes from Sam? Maybe she can sense he is really sick and is reacting to that? :shrug: You have had Chloe for a while now. I can't see Nelly starting these behaviours now. She would have started them right at the start.
You need one of those animal communicators or whatever they are called.

Frenchy
July 25th, 2008, 09:17 PM
You need one of those animal communicators or whatever they are called.

I would love that , if they do exist , I mean a legit one ... it always helps when you know what is the cause ...

clm
July 25th, 2008, 11:41 PM
Nelly had done very well up til now. I wouldn't let this setback worry you too much. You may never really know what's got her out of sorts now. Something has triggered some bad memories, but it could be something that would mean nothing to anyone but her. She's still very young and she's with the best person possible to get her confidence back up again. If you have to crate her again for a while while you're at work, it may just settle her back down again. She'll get back to where you had her again. :grouphug:

Cindy

Rainy
July 25th, 2008, 11:57 PM
I'm with clm about giving back the crate.For dogs with anxiety sometimes the crate is the solid constant that they need.Meaning you can't be there for every scary moment but the crate can..........
For barking try not to yell or say no but try saying a quieter shhhhhh it's more calming like white noise and give a treat while you are saying it!
Also remember if the household dynamics have changed it's also the weather lately that has been bleak.My dogs get a little bizarre with those icky weeks.Except they tend to lose thier minds and destroy cushions!:wall:
Good luck and p.s. I love Nelly!

growler~GateKeeper
July 26th, 2008, 12:19 AM
For barking try not to yell or say no but try saying a quieter shhhhhh it's more calming like white noise

I'm thinking along the same lines, Nelly doesn't even like the word "no", so instead teach Chloe "shhhhhhh". I did this with :rip::dog: Cally who was quite vocal, taught him to bark on command just so I could teach him the shhhhh command. I used the first finger to the lips (like teachers shushing noisy kids in school) as a hand signal to this command.

:goodvibes: for Nelly

rainbow
July 26th, 2008, 01:49 PM
I also agree with Rainy. Chase is a barker and I used to yell at him sometimes :o but I have found that it is much more effective to go up to him and softly say "quiet". I do have to make sure I have his full attention first though because if he is in full barking mode then he just tunes me out. :rolleyes:

Frenchy
July 27th, 2008, 09:52 AM
Chloe barks A LOT ! I never scream at her to stop her (she'll think I'm barking too) but I do have to raise my voice a bit sometimes.



For barking try not to yell

I also agree with Rainy. Chase is a barker and I used to yell at him sometimes :o

Oh no no , don't worry , I never yell , nor scream. I've learn this when I got Bailey , I was mad about something (my fridge broke) and was telling my mom about it and just raised my voice , then I saw Bailey crawl ... so I never yelled again :o

I had family over yesterday , my bro and his GF got here first. Nelly got scared because they came in with packages. When my bro called Nelly to tell her it was ok , she peed .... she got a bit scared everytime someone new entered the house but after a few moments , she settled down and even showed everyone how a great dane could zoom zoom with a Cuz inside a house :rolleyes: they all had a great laugh and I could see she was really proud of herself :laughing:

coppperbelle
July 27th, 2008, 08:20 PM
I feel for you because I am going through something like this with my Chloe. When she was younger she would go to the bathroom in the house. I finally got her out of the habit but it started again this winter. She started by pooping on occasion in the dining room. Now she will poop and pee in the dining room almost daily. She has also recently started destroying things again. Most of the time it is just paper products but it is so frustrating.

I am thinking about speaking to the vet about some sort of medication. She has other issues, fear of thunderstorms for example but her worst fear is of us leaving her. If she is in the car with me and I stop to buy gasoline she will go nuts barking at me even with me standing just outside the window.

She has destroyed my dining room floor and the dining room furniture has also been affected. The living room at the cottage has pee stains and even with constant carpet cleaning I can't keep it 100% clean.

I can't crate train her because she goes nuts in the crate. I have tranquilizers for days when thunderstorms are predicted all day but I can't give her one everyday. I have tried Clomicalm and training, read everything I could about separation anxiety and tried all the tricks. I haven't tried a diffuser, partially because of the high cost and I am skeptical.

I think in Chloe's case she needs a Prozac type drug to take away some of her anxieties. I found a drug called Reconcile and intend on asking my vet about it.

Rescue Remedy does not work at all for Chloe. I also tried Clomicalm and that didn't work either but it might for Nelly. I don't want to discourage you but things do get better with Chloe and then all of a sudden something will set her off and she goes right back to step one. I am hoping that a medication like Reconcile can help her.

Linda