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GL Burn

Byrd
July 21st, 2008, 08:37 PM
So, Willow loves to fight her Gentle Leader and now has some rub burn on her muzzle. She hates having it on, but without it she kills my arm.

Is there a way to prevent the burn???

Winston
July 21st, 2008, 08:42 PM
Hey Byrd have you looked into any other types? I found the halty / GLeader really frustrating!

Cindy

jessi76
July 21st, 2008, 08:52 PM
If it's causing a burn, I'd stop using it. If she's fighting it and still pulling then it's not doing what it's designed to do. Try another tool while you train her to respect a loose leash.

When I introduced the head harness on my dog, I used high value treats for the first 5 minutes - then when the harness was on, I kept a brisk pace... this helped keep the dog moving quickly, so there was no time or opportunity to fidget w/ the harness.

I use the Black Dog Head Harness (Training halter) (http://www.blackdog.net.au/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=2&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=5)

Byrd
July 21st, 2008, 09:34 PM
She's worn a Halti since she became adult, but she ran right through it one night, so I got the Gentle Leader because they're supposed to fit better and they aren't supposed to be able to get them off (however, my little witch can pull it off no problem).

The burn happened at a flyball tournament, she's so crazy to get into the ring that she lunges and pulls, so I started using the GL to try to calm her down. She is like a wild horse walking into the ring.

Tonight on a walk she pulled a bit of Willow spaz and re-opened what she did the other day. :wall:

jessi76
July 22nd, 2008, 08:47 AM
The burn happened at a flyball tournament, she's so crazy to get into the ring that she lunges and pulls, so I started using the GL to try to calm her down. She is like a wild horse walking into the ring.

That's totally different than everyday walking... for controlling her ring-side, I'd probably just use a regular chest harness. just so you can hold her, she's not choking, and she isn't getting GL burns.

it's great that she's so excited and focused on the action, however, maybe more practice on a "watch me" command would help. (granted, I'm SURE in that situation, this is much easier said than done! ;) )

solo-nicolas
July 22nd, 2008, 09:21 AM
I've seen corrective specialty collars that rest higher around the neck line so you can get & keep they're attention more easily. It's not a pincher or a choker either.

Byrd
July 22nd, 2008, 04:44 PM
We've tried harnesses with her, they only make her pull more, and yeah, watch me, nearly impossible when racing is going on. It's also too time consuming to get the harness off when we are heading in for a race, everything works super fast, have to have something that is *bam* off in an instant.

I was hoping that maybe someone would know if they make sheepskin covers for them or something similar, like what they use on racehorses that get burns from their bridle.

rainbow
July 22nd, 2008, 08:14 PM
The Newtrix (http://www.newtrix.ca/docs/ourproducts.php) is fleece lined. The straps are also wider than the Gentle Leader and it's safer to use imo. :)

Lissa
July 22nd, 2008, 10:42 PM
The burn happened at a flyball tournament, she's so crazy to get into the ring that she lunges and pulls, so I started using the GL to try to calm her down. She is like a wild horse walking into the ring.

While drive is great, its not so great when its uncontrollable. If she is that frenzied, I'd consider taking a step back - it is possible to train an on/off switch without losing her edge.

Personally I think this is an injury waiting to happen - if she is lunging that hard on a head harness (lunging period!), I'd be extremely concerned about serious/permanent damage. Head harnesses are great tools - but they are not at all suitable for this scenario IMO.

She's worn a Halti since she became adult...
Tonight on a walk she pulled a bit of Willow spaz and re-opened what she did the other day. :wall:

Am I understanding that you've been using a head harness with Willow for 2-3years with no improvement??
Since it sounds like this is an open sore and not simply some missing hair I wouldn't be walking her in this until she has at least healed.

Jessi76 has a good point with regards to training loose leash walking and harnesses... those basic step in dog harnesses come off in a flash (1 buckle and its on the floor).

Also - if you are using a head halter for flyball, you are sending Willow all the wrong signals. You are teaching her to fight the head harness - you are barely restraining with the head harness because she is WAY beyond her threshold but also the most wonderful things happens when you whip off her GL - she gets her turn at the box! Its unlikely that this training tool will ever have the desired effect considering the history - IMO it would be best to come up with a solution.:2cents:

Byrd
July 23rd, 2008, 09:15 PM
That Newtrix thing looks cool.

Lissa you have to understand that I am doing what my trainers told me to do. Perhaps making it easier to get her into the ring without choking her by the collar. This was not something that was expected to have happened, and one of the others on my team has told me how to fashion a liner for it. When she was on the Halti at two earlier tournaments she was fine, didn't worry about it at all, but at the past tournament she was really worked up, moreso than usual. I cannot use a harness on her at tournaments as she cannot run in her harness and they aren't that easy to get off, I have to be able to strip her within less than five seconds.

My dog's a spaz, yes I have been using a halter on her for nearly her whole life. She's been to obedience school, she knows how to heal in obedience rings, but outside she is used to offleash walks, so being put on a leash is something foreign to her, therefore the halter. I really hate seeing people walk down the road being dragged by their dogs, I will not be one of them, I will keep her on the GL her whole life if the need be. :shrug:

I am using Fucidin Cream on her muzzle, and it's healing really, really well. But, I won't use the GL on her at the tournament this weekend.

Lissa
July 23rd, 2008, 11:05 PM
That Newtrix thing looks cool.

Lissa you have to understand that I am doing what my trainers told me to do. Perhaps making it easier to get her into the ring without choking her by the collar. This was not something that was expected to have happened, and one of the others on my team has told me how to fashion a liner for it. When she was on the Halti at two earlier tournaments she was fine, didn't worry about it at all, but at the past tournament she was really worked up, moreso than usual. I cannot use a harness on her at tournaments as she cannot run in her harness and they aren't that easy to get off, I have to be able to strip her within less than five seconds.

My dog's a spaz, yes I have been using a halter on her for nearly her whole life. She's been to obedience school, she knows how to heal in obedience rings, but outside she is used to offleash walks, so being put on a leash is something foreign to her, therefore the halter. I really hate seeing people walk down the road being dragged by their dogs, I will not be one of them, I will keep her on the GL her whole life if the need be. :shrug:

I am using Fucidin Cream on her muzzle, and it's healing really, really well. But, I won't use the GL on her at the tournament this weekend.

Contrary to popular belief, trainers do not know everything:p... You know your dog, if you know that she is beyond her threshold around flyball and will likely lunge, then you know that a head harness is not a safe tool in this instance.
I understand and agree that choking her way into the ring is not a good idea either and could cause as much damage as a head halter. Why not walk her in off-leash since a leash is foreign to her?

I didn't think that flyball tournaments allowed head harness in the ring anyway?

A step-in harness comes off much faster than 5 seconds - there is 1 buckle and you don't have to slip it off her head/chest/legs. You simply release the buckle and it falls on the floor at her feet - no tangles, no mess. In any case, the harness would be used to get her to the team/start line, not to run the race in. Surely you switch to a slip lead or flyball collar when she's up? I can't see a head harness being easier to remove than a step-in harness at the last minute (even if they are allowed).

I can only reiterate what I said in my last post - drive is great but someone (either you or the dog) needs to be able to control that drive... Otherwise it becomes a health and safety issue - for you, your dog and anybody around your dog. There is a whole world outside of flyball - and for most of that world, leashes are required... I think some old-fashioned training is your best bet. If Willow doesn't accept a leash away from flyball, I fully understand why she won't accept it anywhere near flyball! You will need tool upon tool or you will be the owner who gets dragged across the flyball ring unless you address the root of the issue.... I had to pull my dog out of agility last year because of joint/muscle issues - he went for extensive xrays/physical exams... One day he was at the vet for a minimum of 9hrs - I was not allowed to stay. Thank goodness he knows how to walk nicely, pee/poop on command, go to his mat and responds to commands regardless of the distractions or who is giving them. Had he not been able to do this, he would likely have been sedated numerous times or left alone in a cage, not even given the opportunity to eliminate... Because he was so well-behaved, the vet assistant actually let him stay with her under the desk. While I hope Willow never has to go through that, you never know when others will need to look after your dog, even for a short period of time. Ensuring that your dog is an "easy keeper" generally means preferential treatment when it comes to vets, kennels and dog walkers. :2cents:

Good luck with whatever you choose to do.

jessi76
July 24th, 2008, 08:58 AM
what about a wide quick-release slip collar? like those worn by sighthounds when lure coursing.

Byrd
July 24th, 2008, 05:03 PM
You're not supposed to use halters in the ring because the general public may confuse them with muzzles, but most do use them.

Willow is an "easy keeper" when there's no action, she's calm as can be, but when there's stuff to look at she wants to chase it. Her herd/chase drive is really high.

We use a flyball collar when playing, it is a collar with a handle on it, I used to use a slip lead on her, but she chokes herself with that.

I need something where I am in control of her head end (so she doesn't lunge at ppl or other dogs) but that doesn't do any damage.

aslan
July 24th, 2008, 05:10 PM
if you have something like a salvation army, goodwill, etc, maybe you could find an old jacket with either a lambskin liner, or collar. Just kinda sew it in a tube over the section that rubs her nose. Kinda like the picture of the horse halter.

Byrd
July 24th, 2008, 05:32 PM
yeah, that's what I'm thinking. One of the ladies on my team says that you can get the horse halter covers at any tack shop, some will even have small ones for foals, they should fit, or fit close enough.

aslan
July 24th, 2008, 05:34 PM
If not you can always alter it abit, goodwill might be cheaper tho.

kigndano
July 24th, 2008, 06:56 PM
i would say to get an illusion collar.

i have torn through training tools left and right for the past year ( GL, Halti, choke, buckle) and the illusion stops all my doggys hissy fits in a second or two MAXIMUM.

if you keep the leash short there is no way a dog will pull because when he does he will basically cut his air supply off.

its very harsh, but very effective.

good luck with treats and a stick...

Byrd
July 24th, 2008, 06:57 PM
Yuppers, that's probably what I'll do.

Dekka
July 26th, 2008, 02:41 PM
I was hoping that maybe someone would know if they make sheepskin covers for them or something similar, like what they use on racehorses that get burns from their bridle.

Just a a note.. those are shadow rolls and having nothing to do with burns or rubs on the face. They are to restrict the horse's vision. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_roll

I think you need to stop expecting equipment to fix your issues. This to me says that your dog doesn't have impulse control. I compete in obed with my JRTs. But that doesn't mean that they automatically focused near racing or earth dog (get those RATS!!) I had to almost retrain focus around those things. It can be done, and should be done. Its your relationship with the dog not the tools you use.

Dekka
July 26th, 2008, 02:44 PM
i would say to get an illusion collar.

i have torn through training tools left and right for the past year ( GL, Halti, choke, buckle) and the illusion stops all my doggys hissy fits in a second or two MAXIMUM.

if you keep the leash short there is no way a dog will pull because when he does he will basically cut his air supply off.

its very harsh, but very effective.

good luck with treats and a stick...

It might work. But most of us who compete don't want our dogs shut down. I would never want my dog to associate something that harsh with the sport we are doing. There are enough shut down dogs that will no longer compete, lets not encourage more.