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intial review of the illusion collar

kigndano
July 21st, 2008, 05:06 PM
okay guys, so i picked the illusion up this afternoon and tried it out on a walk after i got home; here are my initial thoughts on the product.



quality:

the collar seems very well made; definitely several notches above the gentle leader head harness i used, and even better than the halti, which IMO was better constructed than the GL. the snap buckles are in no way flimsy, and they seem very secure when you click them down.

the part of the collar designed to keep the upper slip collar in place is very rugged and will certainly not buckle under its own weight and fall down, which i was concerned about when i first saw the collar.

the slip collar itself seems like a normal slip collar, and the o-rings are sized differently to avoid ANY confusion over which one you attach the lead to - this is probably nice if its your first dog and first collar tool...after using a choke for a few weeks i already knew, but its nice none-the-less.

use - putting the collar on:

pretty easy to put on the dog; you unbuckle the two collar sections, and then slip the slip collar over the dogs head. defintiely used treats to coax cassius into poking his nose through it a few times before i went and put the thing on.

then you tighten the top section down by sliding the flat nylon strap through the buckle, this is also very easy to do - no fumbling with the strap or anything. repeat for the bottom section. the little pamphlet that comes with the collar has the old "two finger" routine for tightness. repeat for the bottom section.

then, and this part i forgot to do...dont know how mission critical it is...you slide the second separator section (that keeps the two sections of flat nylon collar separated) to the front of the dogs neck; so you have one along the top of the head down the neck/spine and one along the front of the throat.

attach the leash to the o-ring and thats it, ready to walk.

took me about 8-10 minutes to read through the pamphlet and put the thing on cassius for the first time, not bad at all.

i gave him a few minutes to get used to it while i got myself ready to go out and then we walked...


effectiveness:

worked very well for controlling him on the walk, i have to say i was very impressed. after tearing through 4 training tools with little success this was a nice suprise.

a quick tug either up, or to the side was all it took to...like cesar says..."snap the dog out of it" on most occaisons. what a relief.

there was one time when i missed the initial excitement and i had to pull up for about two seconds to get my dog to quit being a dink...i think this is the same thing as the "dominant dog collar" that leerburg advertises and says.."your dog will quickly realize that being a dink gets him hung". not a huge fan of "hanging my dog" but his paws didnt lift off the ground, so i dont think i did it as hard as he says you "should" with a slip collar.

at any rate so far so good...the excitement reaction was there, but the corrections certainly seemed to snap him back into reality. most times a tiny tug was all it took. the position of the slip collar really is crucial, im sure the same is true of pinch/prongs as well.

as far as pulling, i didnt encounter any of it, this could be due to him wearing the GL and halti for so long, so i cant comment on how it works for that really. however when he did get too far out in front i just tugged up on the leash and he fell back in line.



so....so far, so good. no complaints about quality of the product or ineffectiveness YET. its only been one walk, but seeing my dogs head snap back to looking forward instead of at the lady getting her mail out of her mailbox felt SOOOOOO good. the haltii would have to turn his head a good 5 or 6 times before he stopped looking..the slip collar was one quick 'pop' and done.

i will let you know how things go tomorrow as well, as we didnt have a full blown hissy fit this afternoon, im hoping that because this seems to snap him out of it, the hissy fits are going to phase out.


time will tell.:fingerscr:pray::fingerscr

SnowDancer
July 21st, 2008, 05:30 PM
Someone I know is interested in this product so I will pass on your review. I too had been interested when I first read about it, but after contacting the company was told that my 22 lb. American Eskimo is probably just a little too small for it to be effective. He is a little terror on his walks as well - although sometimes he is surprisingly good - and then another dog will go after him and all "h" breaks loose.

kigndano
July 21st, 2008, 05:33 PM
yea that is a disclaimer in the pamplet..not designed for dogs under 18 pounds (seems a bit arbitrary to me...i guess 19 pounds is ok?) or dogs with a neck smaller than 13" (this seems more reasonable as a limiting factor).

Winston
July 21st, 2008, 05:51 PM
Kingdano! that is good news! I have a recent pic of a friends doggie who was wearing her new collar too! I will attach it for you! I walked with her at the time she was using it and a slight correction is all that seems to be needed.

Did you order the origional one from Cesar or a make of the same type. I have heard that the ones that are similiar are not as good??

Cindy

kigndano
July 21st, 2008, 06:53 PM
i ordered the one from cesars website; i didnt want to try and get a "bargain" and then end up buying another one anyways.

Winston
July 21st, 2008, 07:10 PM
From what I could tell they are very good quality....

Chaser
July 21st, 2008, 07:57 PM
Can you tell if it is good for general pulling? Not reactive pulling but rather "I need to get there first ALL of the time!" pulling? I've been using Halti with Chase for it and he's come a long way...but he's far from where I want him to be. I hate how expensive the Illusion is, but I may just have to save my pennies for it. I've only heard good things about it :)

Winston
July 21st, 2008, 08:03 PM
Well our mutual friend has one :laughing: and maybe you could try it on and see!! The pic you see is Greta from GSRT

Cindy

Chaser
July 21st, 2008, 11:07 PM
Well our mutual friend has one :laughing: and maybe you could try it on and see!! The pic you see is Greta from GSRT

Cindy

Thought I recognized her :)

Please keep us posted on your progress with it kingdano!

kigndano
July 22nd, 2008, 06:48 AM
walk number 2 happened this morning; while its fresh in my head im going to post the results.


we encountered 7 or 8 triggers during the walk; 3 runners, 2 walkers, 1 bike rider, and a woman walking a dog (this is 1 or 2 depending on how you count :D)

the first 3 triggers i tried the correction of popping to the side; didnt snap cash out of it so i told myself rather than nagging him and correcting 25 times to wait until we got closer and the explosion happend and then to pull up on the leash.

the first time was a jogger (same side of the road, coming at us) and i pulled up for MAYBE a second, he put his butt right on the ground and stopped for a few seconds. then he tried to jump at her again and i repeated, again, for MAYBE a second, im sure it was much less but when i am taking the breath away form my dog it seems like way too long...anyways, he stopped again, relaxed and we walked on.

the second and third time were two older women walking very close to each other (in front of us going away from us) , and the fourth was in the form of a woman/dog across the road coming towards us. at first cash got real excited, and was looking back and forth between the three of them, i tried the correction to the side, again..didnt work, so i waited until the fixation turned into the jumping excitement to pull up. the first woman was the same reaction as the first jogger, but only one correction was needed, not 2. the second woman was a correction to the side..progress maybe.

the woman/dog combo i pulled up again because the side correction didnt work, and this time he flopped around like a fish out of water for MAYBE a second (maybe a more intense reaction due to the dog was my thought), he quickly realized he was getting nowhere but out of breath (poor guy, must be a little scary i would think) and he got right up into his sit position. i released the tension and we walked on.

the next 2 people we walked by he did NOTHING at all. he patted his feet a bit at the first one but i ignored it because the intensity was wayyyyy down in comparison, no correction and we walked on. the next person was a true no reaction, just walked by. he looked unsure of what to do, but that makes sense after almost a year of reacting how he had been.

the last person we walked by was probably 10 or so minutes after the previous two no reactions. he acted up again, i tried the side correction, and again nothing. so i pulled up and again he put himself into a sit and relaxed. then we walked on.


here is how i view the corrections so far:

1. certainly a force based method of training, undeniable.
2. side corrections work good for things that are far away, a person pumping gas, or a person in their driveway getting mail etc.
3. pulling up corrections definitely seem to handle the more extreme reactions. i feel quite awful about taking his air away for a second, but it certainly gets his attention. and if its either that, or having him pull himself out of a halti, or throw himself into a full fledged hissy fit of jumping/digging/leash chewing/barking and leash pulling, i will take the 1 second of correction.


this is only the 2nd walk, so i dont want to throw praise around. the illusion DOES keep the slip collar high up on the neck. period. no debate there. if you are not against using a leash correction, or a physical correction there is no reason to avoid it.

a halti does cause some discomfort to most dogs from what i can tell. a lot of dogs paw at it to get it off according to what i read about it here, and other places, so its not like they are pain free methods. i would say that these corrections are far less "nagging" than halti/GL ones seem to be. they definitely get your point across in a hurry.

if you are all about positive training, and dont want to cause any discomfort to your dog DO NOT BUY AN ILLUSION COLLAR.

but god bless if you have a dog like mine and want to use treats, i promise you food and toys hold little value to a dog who has lost its marbles momentarily.






RE: general pulling

i think the collar would work great for "heel" training. i think that is where you correct the dog with a leash pop for walking in front of you. certianly if you keep the leash short, and pull up when he gets out in front the point should get across ESPECIALLY i would think, if you associate a verbal or hand sign command with it. like i said, i havent encountered the frantic pulling that some people do so i cant be certain, and i dont want to lead you astray into spending 50-60 dollars for one and have it not work.

i will update again after our walk this afternoon (weather permitting)

kigndano
July 24th, 2008, 06:05 PM
a few more walks into the illusion era of cassius life and more positive results!


we have enountered several situations where hissy fits have begun to escalate, and a quick pulling up on the leash stops him dead in his tracks.

i even saw him gently sniff the air at passing people after i applied a correction a few times! NORMAL DOGGY BEHAVIOR!

i am thrilled with the results so far, 1000000 times easier to control a hissy fit, no more plopping him on his side after he winds up into a full fledged tantrum because the tantrum doesnt start!

incredible.


the most effective correction is certainly pulling up, but if he starts turning around to look behind us for whatever reason a tug to the side snaps his mind back into looking ahead of us every time.

its great.

if you have a headstrong dog that lunges and pulls and barks at people you should try this collar out.

you will have to be very firm and pull up on the leash until your dog relaxes.

sometimes this is at the point of him choking a little bit, but if you have been to the extreme tantrum like i have it is well worth it if the behavior can be eliminated.

like i said, if you do NOT want to be physical with your dog do NOT buy this collar.

if you would be open to using a choke, pinch, GL or halti, ALL of which cause discomfort to the dog be open to this collar.

it keeps the slip collar up right behind the ears without fail. the corrections are quick and effective. the dog gets the point very quickly that what he is doing is NOT agreed to by the handler IMO.

i will let everyone know if there is any time that we have a setback or if i find any flaws with the collar from here on out.

it has certainly put my mind at east about his slipping out of a collar and getting loose, which only makes me more calm, and that can only help make him calm as well.


the dog whisperer is the man.

Winston
July 24th, 2008, 06:39 PM
Sounds like your making some progress!!

you said

you will have to be very firm and pull up on the leash until your dog relaxes.

sometimes this is at the point of him choking a little bit, but if you have been to the extreme tantrum like i have it is well worth it if the behavior can be eliminated.

my only concern is that you should not really have to choke the dog I always thought that Cesar used the quick correction and kept going...rather than stopping and pulling up on the collar because essentially does is not work similiar to a choke chain but fabric??

I hope in due time your pup will benefit using the collar and just enjoy the walks,smells,people,bikes and whatever else!

Cindy

kigndano
July 24th, 2008, 06:46 PM
you are correct, he does say that.

but when i try the quick correction at the onset of the fixation it does NOT snap him out of it if the person is walking at us.

so i have decided that until the explosion has stopped i have to wait for it to happen and then address it then.


its not really like a gagging choke, its just like an "oh man, i cant breathe right now i should chill out"

like i said the "pull" lasts for MAYBE a second, if he was gasping for air after i did it i would certainly discontinue use of the method.

but rather than do 45 nagging corrections to the side the whole time we walk by and not have him calm down, i think that 1 firm correction that makes him sit down and stop what he is doing will be best.

i see the front leg shake that cesar says happens when the brain doesnt know what to do at that moment in time, so i think its working.

kigndano
July 24th, 2008, 06:49 PM
and it does work similar to a choke chain, BUT on the leerburg site he talks about doing what i am doing with a "dominant dog collar" which is what he sells his slip collar as...here is the quote.

"If you have an aggression problem you need to determine what level of correction to administer. With most dogs it only requires you to lift straight up on the leash and take up the slack in the collar. With these softer dogs they quickly learn that you have complete control over them"

'With more aggressive dogs the handler should lift the dogs front feet off the ground for a few seconds until the dog settles down from his aggressive rage. (see photo below) This also shows the dog that you will not tolerate what he is doing. Most aggressive dogs only need to have their front feet lifted off the ground."

"What handlers should not do with these collars is jerk on the collar like you would with a prong collar. Thatís not how the dominant dogs collars are intended to be used. Jerking on a choke collar will cause muscle damage to the dogs neck.

Lifting the dog up the way I have explained does not cause any damage to the dog it simply takes their air away. This is not painful but it really gets the dogs attention.

The most important thing that the handler must do during this process is to remain calm and not scream or fight with his dog. The concept is to let the dog know that you are the boss, that you don't need to fight him or scream at him or anything else to take his air away. "


so this guy says to ONLY do what i am doing and to NOT jerk on it at all...its all so confuzzling.

i got the idea from his site, i didnt make it up on my own. i would NEVER claim to be that smart at all. im just a copy cat.

kigndano
July 24th, 2008, 06:54 PM
and also, if i correct him with a quick tug and get NO reaction from him and keep walking has he really learned that what mindstate he is in is unacceptable?

or just that im going to nag him to death when he gets in that state of mind?


i dunno, a lot of this seems open to interpretation, everyone has their own POV on it all.

Winston
July 24th, 2008, 07:20 PM
Kingdano does he react at all to the person coming towards you when you give the quick correction and keep walking? also if he is able to lung at people maybe keep him on a really short lead so that he is right in at your side..more like walking in a heel? does he react if you do that?

this may sound crazy too but when you see someone approaching and you see his body changing can you say Aghh!! and a slight correction in towards you and keep approaching the situation?..as a way to remind him before it happens that it is not acceptable? do you think he can feel the anticipation or vibes from you before these events happen? just a thought!

I am so glad you are taking the time to work with your boy! just as long as you use the tools out there correctly they sometimes work! :thumbs up

kigndano
July 24th, 2008, 08:02 PM
he does react when i try the quick correction and walkby, and i have to end up pulling up anyways to get him to stop his jumping behaviour.

its important to note that i DONT think its aggression, he wants to greet people.

but that said, not everyone wants a 90 pound dog jumping on them, happily or not, and i dont think its acceptable behavior either. being that he is my dog, i feel that justifies me trying to change it, dont you?

i try saying "AH AH!" and snapping my fingers, which is what i do when i correct him inside the house. it works inside, but outside it doesnt get through to him as of yet. though i shouldnt forget to try it as we progress and hopefully he learns to take it down a few notches.


right now my goal is NOT to eliminate all excitement, WAY too much to do so fast.

right now my goal IS to stop all jumping without corrections.

once i have done that, THEN i will focus on removing all excitement/fixation.

he may be feeling my vibes, but i try my damndest to ignore the people coming at us, aside from that i dunno what i can do ( i do also have my ipod on to help me out too)

and thanks for all the encouragement, some of the people here just seem to want to drag me down and slam what i am doing, but they dont want to understand that i have tried lots of other positive methods too, they just dont get him to react how i want.

thanks winston!

Winston
July 24th, 2008, 08:24 PM
Everyone has opinions you know! I am a pretty blunt kinda person so I say it the way it is! I honestly think your making an effort and that is very important! many dogs are returned to shelters and rescues everyday! having said that though I also believe that we must educate ourselves when trying new things..some things work for you but not for me! I also dont take alot of the postings too personal cause I walk in my own shoes you know what I mean? and some things in training a dog or correcting a behaviour work and some things dont!

My only concern really is the animal! If an illusion collar works why not use it? for me many think a prong collar is horrible! I dont! why because I know how to use it ! and in some hands it could be very dangerous!

I think the main thing should always be for the better of the dog! I dont think you need force...you need to just reinforce what you expect from them...

And honestly I didnt like your second update on the collar only because I think you may not have been using it correctly or perhaps hadnt worked out the collar yet but you know what your working at it and thats all that matters at this moment..:thumbs up and your dog has responded to the fact that you are the boss! so thats a good place to start!!

Cindy

Lissa
July 24th, 2008, 10:38 PM
I am incredibly shocked here. I never thought that strangling your dog would be something I'd read on this forum.

i feel quite awful about taking his air away for a second, but it certainly gets his attention.

Thank heavens I am not your dog.

sometimes this is at the point of him choking a little bit, but if you have been to the extreme tantrum like i have it is well worth it if the behavior can be eliminated.

Wow. Its hard to believe what I am reading. I know what its like to desperately want a behaviour to extinguish itself but choking your dog? Ya, I'd behave pretty quickly too - not sure I'd trust or listen to you when you can't choke me though.

but you know what your working at it and thats all that matters at this moment..:thumbs up and your dog has responded to the fact that you are the boss! so thats a good place to start!!

If you have to choke your dog in order to be the boss, maybe you shouldn't have a dog.

I am hoping that this thread is actually some crazy dog training nightmare and that I wake up tomorrow with no recollection of it.

Winston
July 25th, 2008, 05:01 AM
Maybe when you wake up today you will have some solid adise to offer! rather than just making comments about what you dont like!

We all come here for advice so what do you suggest here?

Making comments like I wish I wasnt your dog really doesnt help anyone here!

Cindy

kigndano
July 25th, 2008, 06:14 AM
yea lissa

im really tired of your self righteous bullcrap quite frankly, and id appreciate it if youd refrain from giving me any advice.

i saw your last "routine" which consisted of spending like 14 hours a day with your dog.

thats completely rediculous, maybe you should get a real job.

i sleep for 7, work for 8 and have 9 left over.

i walk him for 2...down to 7.

play with/train him for about 1....down to 6.

now i dunno about you, but i for one, also have errands to run, bills to pay, and a personal life. 6 hours is cutting it a smidge tight.

winston, today i did as you suggested, the cesar way of correction and keep walking. seemed to work!

while his excitement didnt evaporate the way it did when i pulled up on the collar there was no jumping/barking/leash chewing so i'll take it.


i also tested myself by walking with my eyes closed to make sure i wasnt feeding him bad vibes, and sure enough he still got super excited when a person ran by us.
(walking with your eyes closed is quite the experience)

anyhoo, progress is being made and i think thats what counts.

kigndano
July 25th, 2008, 06:18 AM
I am incredibly shocked here. I never thought that strangling your dog would be something I'd read on this forum.



Thank heavens I am not your dog.



Wow. Its hard to believe what I am reading. I know what its like to desperately want a behaviour to extinguish itself but choking your dog? Ya, I'd behave pretty quickly too - not sure I'd trust or listen to you when you can't choke me though.



If you have to choke your dog in order to be the boss, maybe you shouldn't have a dog.

I am hoping that this thread is actually some crazy dog training nightmare and that I wake up tomorrow with no recollection of it.



you are totally right!

my dog hates me!

he never jumps up into my bed at night to get petted for sure!

we definitely never have fun playing together either!

he also NEVER listens to me when i tell him to sit or lay down to get his food and water.

he also REALLY hates it when i scratch the spot on his belly and his leg kicks around.

he definitely hates when i take him to the park and try ot teach him to swim too.

he always cowers in fear from me by lowering his tail between his legs and whimpering too!



my bad.

Winston
July 25th, 2008, 07:56 AM
winston, today i did as you suggested, the cesar way of correction and keep walking. seemed to work!

Hey Kingdano! thats great news! I thought maybe it was just something you might have been doing not quite right! Yeah! It takes time to get used to how to use the collar I'm sure!

Dont give in to the comments...just keep focused on how to improve using it and how it works with Cassious!! Whats the old saying baby steps...

kigndano
July 25th, 2008, 08:30 AM
if i gave into the comments id either have left the board, given my dog away, or be walking around with a broom handle with kibble tied to the end of it.

mona_b
July 25th, 2008, 09:47 AM
kigndano,I have never been to crazy about some of the training on the Leerburg site.Some tactects are to forcefull.

And I don't agree with this at all.never have and never will.

"If you have an aggression problem you need to determine what level of correction to administer.With most dogs it only requires you to lift straight up on the leash and take up the slack in the collar.With these softer dogs they quickly learn that you have complete control over them"

'With more aggressive dogs the handler should lift the dogs front feet off the ground for a few seconds until the dog settles down from his aggressive rage. This also shows the dog that you will not tolerate what he is doing. Most aggressive dogs only need to have their front feet lifted off the ground."

If you need to use "force" with a dog,then that means that the dog is not paying attention to you..The dog needs to focus on you.I have raised 3 GSD"s and have never had to use force.:)

I showed this to my breeder a few years ago(she did SchH)..I also brought this up to a trainer(canine unit)..They were not impressed.And said this type of training should not be done.And we are talking pros here.:)

Just a question.But how much training and socializing has your dog had as a pup?

kigndano
July 25th, 2008, 09:50 AM
countless hours of obedience training in my parents backyard on a long tie out for; sit, down, stay, come, and "go get it" to fetch a ball. all reward based training

he has played with lots of dogs before, he had a big 7 y/oi shepard he was best buddies with for months until i moved , they payed daily for an hour or so. he went to doggy day care for a day to play with a lot of dogs too.

kigndano
July 25th, 2008, 09:50 AM
and like i said mona

if you dont want to use physical corrections, dont buy the illusion. it is certainly all about physical leash popping.

Lissa
July 25th, 2008, 10:12 AM
Maybe when you wake up today you will have some solid adise to offer! rather than just making comments about what you dont like!

We all come here for advice so what do you suggest here?

Making comments like I wish I wasnt your dog really doesnt help anyone here!

Cindy

I have offered advise numerous times - all of which has been ignored or applied improperly. I'm afraid that the OP wants a quick fix, not training help. But IMO there is a huge difference between a quick fix and being willing to take away your dogs ability to breathe. That is not training and it is not humane IMO.

i saw your last "routine" which consisted of spending like 14 hours a day with your dog.

Nice exaggeration! If you don't socialize or lay foundations with your dog from day one, you will have to put a lot more effort into undoing the damage.... That can be accomplished in several 5-15minute sessions spread throughout the day, in addition to physical activity. You made the commitment to the dog so I don't think its unreasonable to suggest a "routine" that consists of increasing physical and mental stimulation... we aren't talking about 14hrs or 10hrs or 5hrs or even 3hrs (which is what you say you already do so I don't see the hardship!)...

thats completely rediculous, maybe you should get a real job.

i sleep for 7, work for 8 and have 9 left over.

i walk him for 2...down to 7.

play with/train him for about 1....down to 6.

now i dunno about you, but i for one, also have errands to run, bills to pay, and a personal life. 6 hours is cutting it a smidge tight.

Generally I wouldn't respond to personal attacks but let me give you an example of my life at its busiest:

Up at 3am to take my dog for a walk, gone by 5:30am (and since local buses don't start at that hour, I get to walk 30-45minutes just to get to a bus that will get me within a 15 minute walk to work).

Work until 1-2pm - get home and take the Foxhound out again, generally for a shortish walk.
Leave the house by 3:30pm to get to my second job by 4:30pm and work until 9:30 (don't generally get home before 10:30pm). At which point its time to take the Foxhound out again.

Guess what? I don't have the LUXURY of a personal life on days like that. I don't expect others to live my extreme but I do think that we all have the responsibility to do what's best for our dogs and take ownership for our mistakes. You created your dogs behaviour, if you have to lose an 1hr of sleep for a couple of weeks, I think you owe that to your dog instead of resorting to harsher and harsher methods.

and you are a ....

I'd rather that you spend the time training your dog than coming up with degrading posts for me. You've gotten that off your chest, now go exercise your dog - preferably without that collar;)

mona_b
July 25th, 2008, 10:15 AM
countless hours of obedience training in my parents backyard on a long tie out for; sit, down, stay, come, and "go get it" to fetch a ball. all reward based training

he has played with lots of dogs before, he had a big 7 y/oi shepard he was best buddies with for months until i moved , they payed daily for an hour or so. he went to doggy day care for a day to play with a lot of dogs too.

Please don't take what I say the wrong way..:)

I think this is why you are having problems.

Most of the trainig you have done was "house bound"..Dogs learn great at times in their enviroment.But they need to do well outside where all the distractions are.Like cars,people animals,bikes,kids ect.This is the socialization part.And very important.

And as I said,I have never had to use physical corrections in any of my dogs.;)

pitgrrl
July 25th, 2008, 10:35 AM
I have offered advise numerous times - all of which has been ignored or applied improperly. I'm afraid that the OP wants a quick fix, not training help. But IMO there is a huge difference between a quick fix and being willing to take away your dogs ability to breathe. That is not training and it is not humane IMO.


I'm inclined to agree at this point. :shrug:

kigndano, I understand that this is a frustrating problem for you, but honestly, I've offered you advice at length, as have many other members, in your previous posts, have you worked on anything that was suggested for a long enough period of time to see results?

You're dog is learning over and over and over again that X situation means a freak out and that freak out is probably pretty rewarding to him. It takes time to change this type of behavior.

I'm not actually fundementally against fair corrections, they have their place sometimes, but I really am not understanding the need to hang/choke your dog. It seems like you're treading into some pretty dangerous territory, with only internet sites to guide you, and you risk actually making the behavior worse or doing some pretty serious damage to your dog.

Have you ever gotten a trainer or behaviorist or even just an expereinced dog owner to go on a walk with you to get another perspective on what's going on? Sometimes we get so used to doing things, even very small things, a certain way that we no longer even recognize that we're doing them. It can help to have another set of eyes on the situation.

mona_b
July 25th, 2008, 10:48 AM
You seem to like using physical force as I have read in many of your posts.Even tried the alpha roll.

You also have addmited to being an unexperienced dog owner.You ask for help,but don't like hearing it.What's up with that?

Before buying this dog,you should have taken the time to learn more about what it takes to raising one.

And please watch your mouth with the name calling on here.

mafiaprincess
July 25th, 2008, 11:42 AM
countless hours of obedience training in my parents backyard on a long tie out for; sit, down, stay, come, and "go get it" to fetch a ball. all reward based training

As Mona said that is 'house bound'. Going from your back yard to the street and expecting the dog to respond the same is like expecting your child to go to university when they haven't completed grade one. You need to ramp up distraction training. It's not an overnight process. Often people describe it as inside, then the backyard, then a quiet street, then a quiet park, then a busier park, etc.

Dog's need to be retrained every behaviour you'd like them to know in varying environments. They don't just know, nor do they have the focus to just be able to do it cause you say so.

Cider could heel quite well inside, in the back yard, in a quiet park, but it took a long time to get to anything more distracting.. and it took a year of work to have enough focus to ignore other dogs..

Training is a life long process. Even with tools results don't happen over night. I agree that I find it alarming that you are cutting off your dog's air supply to get results. And even more so that people pointing out that that is generally frowned upon has gotten you to be nasty and call people names.

Winston
July 25th, 2008, 03:50 PM
Hey Kingdano..lots of comments today...

Here are some thoughts:

People are making it sound like you are completely making the dog stop breathing!! like you are choking him to death! even though you said:

its not really like a gagging choke, its just like an "oh man, i cant breathe right now i should chill out"

like i said the "pull" lasts for MAYBE a second, if he was gasping for air after i did it i would certainly discontinue use of the method.

I have had to pull up on my dogs collar many times when he was younger!

I would like to point out that there are many training facilities that beleive in hanging your dog! and literally that means hanging your dog! I can vouch for it because as an ingnorant new dog owner I listened to the obediance trainer and did it before I realized how ineffective it was and how it must have made my poor pup feel! That is coming from obediance classes!

Kingdano you mentioned that this is from another training group! I dont agree with this form or style of working with the dog!

"If you have an aggression problem you need to determine what level of correction to administer.With most dogs it only requires you to lift straight up on the leash and take up the slack in the collar.With these softer dogs they quickly learn that you have complete control over them"

'With more aggressive dogs the handler should lift the dogs front feet off the ground for a few seconds until the dog settles down from his aggressive rage. This also shows the dog that you will not tolerate what he is doing. Most aggressive dogs only need to have their front feet lifted off the ground."

I also agree with this comment 100%

I think this is why you are having problems.

Most of the trainig you have done was "house bound"..Dogs learn great at times in their enviroment.But they need to do well outside where all the distractions are.Like cars,people animals,bikes,kids ect.This is the socialization part.And very important

Too bad you didnt live closer I know someone that could help you and watch you walk Cassious and see whats happening!

Kingdano you also said this:

but rather than do 45 nagging corrections to the side the whole time we walk by and not have him calm down, i think that 1 firm correction that makes him sit down and stop what he is doing will be best.

I think in my opinion you should try to work throught the 45 corrections until they are down to none! I think by stopping you are also making Cassious more excited and uncontrollable cause he is anticipating someone or something coming towards him. If your corrections are right on cue you may be walking right by someone running down the street but he will be concentrating on you and the slight correction! I would try this as a brisk walk too! not a slow walk...and I would also make sure that he is directly against your body as your doing that walk so that there is NO ability for him to lunge! if your watching his body language you will be able to anticipate when the correction is needed.

Maybe we should put this to rest as well

Are you choking your dog so he cant breath and are you holding him up off his feet by the neck and choking him! I didnt see you post that so I didnt get that but perhaps the others here did!

People since you have pointed out today that OP has received lots of advice before and doesnt use it! well I wanted to say that alot of people would have given up by now! Have we ever thought of that side of the story? Its so easy to give up and drop your pet off somewhere for it to be someone elses problem! and most of all we would get much further here today to offer our experiences and advise to OP here rather than bashing!

I have asked for lots of advise on this forum but it doesnt mean I have used it nor agree with everyone!

Just my :2cents:worth!

kigndano
July 26th, 2008, 11:13 AM
the housebound comment makes sense, i just dont know anywhere to go that is a "quiet road" near where i live.

and yes people do offer advice, and i have tried to use a lot of it. it simply does not work for me.

i tried waving string cheese in my dogs face when he acted up, i may as well have been waving a handful of vomit, because he had zero interest in it.

i tried the GL and halti because of this board for OVER ONE YEAR!

its not like i just decided, hey, positive training is cool, but i really want to punch my dog in the head....so ill do that instead.

and im glad you see what i am saying, its like they have selective eyesight. I AM NOT SHOKING MY DOG UNTIL HIS TONGUE HANGS OUT OF HIS MOUTH AND HIS EYES ARE POPPING OUT OF HIS HEAD.

i simply pull UP on the slip collar. thats it, just up, instead of to the side.

and i will certainly give the side corrections a shot, but i have always read that people that do too many nagging corrections only teach the dog to ignore them, because they arent a real consequence.

to say that i didnt research is also very ignorant on your part.

i have read numerous books/websites on training, clicker training, NILIF slip collars, choke collars, GL/halti training etc.

i practice NILIF with my dog 24/7 by the way, to keep his basic OB stuff very solid. this way I KNOW THAT IF I TELL HIM AND HE DOESNT DO IT IT ISNT BECAUSE HE DOESNT KNOW WHAT TO DO.

last year i was in a PM/email trianing course with a member here to try and get my dog to focus on me when outside. after weeks of back and forth her last email was "boy, you have a 'special' dog" and she gave up on me.

no matter what we did he said, f-this, im gonna dig holes in the lawn, chew on my leash and be a general brat at all times.

so please, dont insult my effort or lack there of. or insinuate that i dont care for my dog. its simply not true.

and NO I AM NOT HANGING MY DOGS FEET OFF THE GROUND AT ALL, HE FREAKED OUT ONCE TIME SO BAD THAT HE FLOPPED HIMSELF AROUND AT THE END OF THE ILLUSION. I DID NOTHING BUT RELEASE THE TENSION AT THAT POINT.



I AM UP AT 5 AM DAILY TO WALK MY DOG, MONDAY-SUNDAY 365/yr. I PUT A LOT OF EFFORT, TIME, MENTAL FRUSTRATION AND PHYSICAL ENERGRY INTO MY DOG. IF I DIDNT WANT A TRAINED DOG I WOULD HAVE GIVEN UP LONG AGO AND BANISHED HIM TO A ROOM IN THE HOUSE ALL DAY EVERY DAY.

BUT I AM NOT THE KIND TO GIVE UP, AND I WILL NOT GIVE UP ON MY DOG. I WILL TRY EVERYTHING IN MY POWER, AS I HAVE UNTIL NOW, TO MAKE HIM A BALANCED DOG.

AND WHOEVER SAID IMPROPER SOCIALIZATION WAS A CAUSE OF THIS. READ MY POSTS.

HE HAS PLAYED WITH LOTS AND LOTS OF DOGS, DOGS AT THE PARK, NEIGHBORS/FRIENDS DOGS DOGGY DAY CARE DOGS, MET LOTS OF NEW PEOPLE, AND HE PASSES ALL TESTS WITH FLYING COLORS UNLESS WE ARE WALKING.


IF YOU WANT TO RESPOND TO ME PLEASE READ WHAT I HAVE SAID FIRST. DONT PICK AND CHOOSE AND CALL ME A MONSTER.

kigndano
July 26th, 2008, 11:23 AM
Hey Kingdano..lots of comments today...

I think in my opinion you should try to work throught the 45 corrections until they are down to none! I think by stopping you are also making Cassious more excited and uncontrollable cause he is anticipating someone or something coming towards him. If your corrections are right on cue you may be walking right by someone running down the street but he will be concentrating on you and the slight correction! I would try this as a brisk walk too! not a slow walk...and I would also make sure that he is directly against your body as your doing that walk so that there is NO ability for him to lunge! if your watching his body language you will be able to anticipate when the correction is needed.

Maybe we should put this to rest as well

Are you choking your dog so he cant breath and are you holding him up off his feet by the neck and choking him! I didnt see you post that so I didnt get that but perhaps the others here did!

People since you have pointed out today that OP has received lots of advice before and doesnt use it! well I wanted to say that alot of people would have given up by now! Have we ever thought of that side of the story? Its so easy to give up and drop your pet off somewhere for it to be someone elses problem! and most of all we would get much further here today to offer our experiences and advise to OP here rather than bashing!

I have asked for lots of advise on this forum but it doesnt mean I have used it nor agree with everyone!

Just my :2cents:worth!



the walk is VERY BRISK, the dog is always jogging at my side while i walk.

the leash is probably like 8 inches from my hand to the slip collar, usually his ears are touching the bottom of my hand. thats pretty close right?

but at the same time i dont want to hold the leash with tension so i keep a somewhat loose grip, and that gives him SOME access to lunge a little.

i do try to correct as soon as his ears perk up, but im not perfect, and i have said SOOO many times everyone else. I DONT HAVE 300 BUCKS LAYING AROUND FOR A 1-on-1 lesson.

i just dont, thats it, end of story. so stop asking me to consult a trainer. maybe you guys are all married, have a husband (most are women here i think?) and you both work and have money to spare?

i dunno?

im a single guy, 23 years old, living on my own making 35k a year. money is VERY tight for me. and i cant just shell out 300 bucks unless i want my car repossessed.

pitgrrl
July 26th, 2008, 12:12 PM
i do try to correct as soon as his ears perk up, but im not perfect, and i have said SOOO many times everyone else. I DONT HAVE 300 BUCKS LAYING AROUND FOR A 1-on-1 lesson.

i just dont, thats it, end of story. so stop asking me to consult a trainer. maybe you guys are all married, have a husband (most are women here i think?) and you both work and have money to spare?



How do you know some of us don't have wives and no money? :laughing:

Seriously though, do you know any experienced dog owners who might be able to help you out? Perhaps looking for a breed club or training club in your area might find you some in person help?

I can totally understand not having a ton of extra cash, but the problem with the internet is that it can be really, really hard to understand exactly what is going on and/or know exactly what people are suggesting looks like. Especially when you're talking about corrections which need impeccable timing to be affective, rather than just winding the dog up more.

Also, are you on any breed specific forums? Certain traits can sometimes be better understood by people with experience with a particular type of dog. Couldn't hurt in anycase.

Winston
July 26th, 2008, 02:22 PM
Hey Kingdano!

Pitgirl has some good advise about a trainer but maybe you could save up some cash for that?

Listen does Cassious know the command "look at me"? In my obediance training we taught the dogs to look at you on command. Basically treat based in the beginning and then once your dog knows it you could lesson the treats to none! Basically pointing at your nose to direct him and as soon as he looks at you give him a treat! (oh and praise him like there is no tomorrow!!) Basically as you know repetition and bang he will look at you on command.

Where I am going with this is if you could incorporate the look at me with your walks when needed..to distract his attention from whatever he is doing. Maybe if you approach a scenario and you sense his body language starting to change you could use the look at me and if needed a correction to the side in toward you!

As for the length of the lead I cant say exactly a measurement but what I am thinking is you can briskly walk Cassious at your side without stepping on each others feet and just enough foro you to slightly make a correction...shouldnt really be a long lead and I think you already know that!

AS for the training outside the home I think what you need to do is take Cassious and put him in different scenarious..walking, walking by a runner, walking by another dog! (this is a big one!). Its kind of like in the house when you set them up for say surfing the counter for food..you must catch them in the act to deal with it properly so its the same outside..Do you have a friend that could play the part of walker?

How is Cassious doing on the new food? things firming up? :laughing:

SolaMio
July 26th, 2008, 03:39 PM
Hi Kingdano.. I don't really have advice for you per se, but just wanted to say that I can really relate to your trouble with walks. From your other posts, your dog is a mal, right? Sola (mine) is a mal/lab cross. She's also very hard to handle on her walks, though she is getting better as she ages and calms down (a bit!).
My trainer also felt she was a "special case" and had me try correction collars. I have tried much of the advice I received on this forum and from other dog owners, and my trainer- including martingale collar, halti, and harnesses. In the end, the only thing that worked for me was a chest harness. I can't tell you WHY it works for us, but it does. She simply does not pull as much, and I have a lot more control than with only a collar. As you know mals (and mal crosses) are extremely STRONG, and Sola has knocked me on my rear end when she's seen a squirrel.
Anyway just wanted to say I understand where you're coming from, a few months ago I was nearly in tears I was so frustrated. Things DO improve... Good luck :thumbs up