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Hill's Science Diet J/D

Big Dog Mom
July 9th, 2008, 11:05 AM
Dr. Lee mentioned in another thread that many in this forum are not fans of Hill's Science Diet J/D.

Can you each offer me your reasons why you're down on it?

My 85 pound, 12 year old Great Pyrenees, Maggie, has DM, and a specialist just put her on J/D a few weeks ago, instead of the Wellness Senior that she was one for years before. With the Wellness, I supplemented with chicken, beef, fish, brown rice, sometimes liver,... - and mixed it in.

Your thoughts?

Thanks!
Marcia

Sabine
July 9th, 2008, 11:50 AM
Ingredients
Ground Whole Grain Corn, Chicken By-Product Meal, Flaxseed, Soybean Mill Run, Brewers Rice, Soybean Meal, Pork Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Chicken Liver Flavor, Powdered Cellulose, Fish Oil, Potassium Chloride, L-Lysine, Calcium Carbonate, Choline Chloride, Iodized Salt, DL-Methionine, Vitamin E Supplement, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), L-Threonine, Taurine, Soy Lecithin, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), L-Tryptophan, L-Carnitine, preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid, Chondroitin Sulfate, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.

Just take a quick look at the ingredients list. ;) :frustrated: It also has a carbohydrate content of 46.9 %, which IMHO is way too much for a carnivorous diet. I would go back to a regular adult maintenance food with low carb and add some homecooked ingredients to it. Way easier on joints than all that garbage that's in Hill's. ;) You can also add your own Glucosamine/Esther-C/Fish-Oil and if you supplement it yourself it's probably better quality anyways. :)

Chris21711
July 9th, 2008, 11:59 AM
I asked about this food in the pet health section yesterday, thread titled Crash the tri-pod Dr. Lee answered that Vet's have faith in it's medicinal properties :shrug: Maybe you would like to check out his answer.

Sabine
July 9th, 2008, 12:08 PM
No pun intended, but WHERE is the medicine in this food ? ::rolleyes:

happycats
July 9th, 2008, 12:11 PM
Check out this study....very enlightening. Because of this study I took my dog off nutro and switched to Performatrin Ultra.
Even Costco's Kirkland is better then hills.
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog-food-index-c.html

Chris21711
July 9th, 2008, 12:12 PM
I guess I should have used another term. Dr. Lee stated that what is in this diet is proven to be helpful for dogs with joint problems. Yesterday I was trying to get feedback from members with more knowledge than myself to pass along to my daughter's friend, since I am aware that this is not a good diet. Unfortunately I didn't receive any feedback.

Sabine
July 9th, 2008, 12:16 PM
Hi Chris,

As far as supplementation goes: I would take the dog to a holistic veterinarian and have him put together a list of dietary supplements beneficial to dogs suffering from joint problements list of Hill's makes my cringe. s.
Hill's does list Glucosamine in this particular diet, but it does not give you any indication as to how much and what kind of quality it is.

pitgrrl
July 9th, 2008, 12:22 PM
I asked about this food in the pet health section yesterday, thread titled Crash the tri-pod Dr. Lee answered that Vet's have faith in it's medicinal properties :shrug: Maybe you would like to check out his answer.

Here's the thing I think, Hills, Medi-cal, etc. can study their foods up the wazoo and give vets that information. Unless a vet has a particular personal investment in studying nutrition, it makes sense for them to look to companies which can provide them with data which they can look to int he event of specific ailments.

Does that mean that those diets are the best thing for your dog? No, not at all, but your vet is not necessarily going to be able to provide you with alternatives as prescription diets, in most though obviously not all cases, are what they know and have information on. Who is going to put up the $$ to study homemade, raw or other diet options? No one.

In any case, what I would suggest you do is ask your vet what in the Hills food is beneficial to your dogs specific condition and then research how you might provide those elements in your dogs diet as supplements, a homemade food or what have you. This is what I've done numerous times with my dogs, as I've learned through experience that there's no point letting their overall health suffer in an attempt to try and help/fix a specific problem. Overall health is just as important.

Chris21711
July 9th, 2008, 12:23 PM
I'll suggest that to her. but her Vet and the specialist both recommended it :wall: Also they said that what was in the food was enough supplementation that in their opinion he did not need to be on any other supplements :wall:

Chris21711
July 9th, 2008, 12:26 PM
Pitgrrl -I'm in agreement with you, it is not for one of my dogs but a friends and she is not get the right info from either Vet IMO

Chaser
July 9th, 2008, 01:16 PM
I'll suggest that to her. I already have told her that it is crummy food, but her Vet and the specialist both recommended it :wall: Also they said that what was in the food was enough supplementation that in their opinion he did not need to be on any other supplements :wall:

That is maddening! The value of suppplements is generally all lost in the kibble rendering process anyway. I'm fully convinced it's vital to add fresh meat and a few veggies to any kibble to up the protein, vitamins and antioxidents, and I think supplementing with glucosamine/chondroitin or MSM and also Omega fatty acids is really important for dogs with joint problems.

I'm also not fully convinced of the principle of feeding senior dogs more carbs just because they're old. They're still carnivores! When they slow down and are prone to weight gain it would make sense that they would eat less...but why a different formula that is carb-heavy? Even Wellness does this and it kind of makes me mad...another reason I wish Canidae wasn't messing around with their ALS formula.

Regardless, I can't imagine switching to it from a great food like Wellness (even the Senior formula is FAR better!). Chris21711 - If you want to convince someone, I find it helpful to pick out a couple ingredients and research them. If you're able to vividly describe to comeone what chicken by-products and brewer's rice actually are, they are usually so disgusted they don't want to go near the food! Also helpful: Ask them how they would feel if they ate six cobs of corn for dinner :yuck: :laughing:

All I know is I have spent hours reseaching dog food and I think I barely know the half of it....which is why I would not trust a vet's opinion on food, since I highly doubt many of them are devoting as much time to being informed about dog nutrition as a lot of the users on pets.ca do!

Big Dog Mom - I agree with pitgrrl - stick with a food you can be sure of the quality of and add supplements! Food has a lot of overall health benefits, but it can't solve specific problems. I don't know a lot about DM, but IMO any dog suffering with any health problem should try to eat a food that is as natural as possible to a diet in the wild, instead of using valuable energy to try and digest "junk" that it is not designed to be eating. :2cents:

Love4himies
July 9th, 2008, 01:21 PM
Maybe this is a way to explain Hills to your friend:

You have to think of your own diet, is it better for you to eat processed corn and hot dogs rather than fresh veggies and meat? No absolutely not, so how can processed corn and by products be better than fresh meat for your dog?

If she gave it some thought, she would realize you are right.

Chris21711
July 9th, 2008, 01:26 PM
Thanks guys for the input, I'm printing out a lot of this for her to read. I know zilch. Only since coming to this forum have I switched both my dogs and cats to good food, or at least I hope it is. Thanks again :thumbs up

Chase Mum - Crash is only 3 years old, he is a little overweight for his condition (tri-pod)

Big Dog Mom
July 9th, 2008, 02:02 PM
WOW. As I read all of your input, I'm now more confused than ever. On one hand, Maggie's doctor (a specialist) is probably one of the most engaged, intelligent and well thought vets I've ever encountered, and I have a very frank and open relationship with her. That having been said, I am tuned in to the "mommy instinct" points of view many of you are explaining in this forum. My "mommy instinct" is to supplement their kibble with fresh meat or fish and some veggies, which is what I have done for YEARS. The kibble I used, as I said before, was Wellness (now the Wellness Senior). Maggie's specialist said to pull out the meat, add more veggies, and insert some broth for flavor if necessary. I don't know if it's my need to be a mom that makes me want to cook for Maggie or what I call my 'mommy instinct' which means that this is just the best thing for her.

Maggie is about 86 pounds, and because of her DM, we need to take about 3 or 4 pounds off of her since her back legs are weak and not as able to support an otherwise acceptable weight.

What are you guys thoughts about all of this? Chris21711, I too was told that no other supplements would be needed other than those in the J/D other than the Vitamin E. My instincts are contrary to this counsel.

Chaser
July 9th, 2008, 02:23 PM
:sorry: I just realized I kind of smushed answers to both Big Dog Mom and Chris21711 together and maybe created some confusion!

I didn't mean for senior food to be relevant to Crash, Chris21711 - I'll go look for your original thread and read up on him there. :)

Big Dog Mom - I don't really understand CM at all so it's a bit hard to offer advice....but I definitely wouldn't use Hill's to aid in weight loss. It's one thing to cut calories, but using their food would cut nutrition too and I would think that is something your dog needs right now!

My instinct would be to keep doing what you are with adding meat and veggies to Wellness but to cut back the amounts of meat and kibble a little...that is just my opinion though. Even though I personally don't like how carb heavy senior food is, it will likely help with the weight loss and it sounds like that is more important right now.

But there are tonnes of other users on here who are more well-read on nutrition than myself and hopefully more will see this thread soon - lots of people log on in the evening so hopefully you will get some more ideas tonight!

pitgrrl
July 9th, 2008, 02:24 PM
If it were me (and though I haven't ever had to deal with the specific issue you're facing, I have had to deal with chronic health issues in one of my dogs) I would be doing 3 things.

First, I would ask the vet if she can provide you with specific information about what, nutritionally speaking, would benefit your dog's condition and why.

For example, why is she telling you to cut out the meat and up the veggie content? Is that the help the dog drop some weight? Are there implications of protein or fat levels on the condition that she is concerned about? What are the specific substances in the Hills J/D that are beneficial? Is it high in Omega 3's ? Glucosamine? I'm just guessing here, but find out the specifics.

Second I would look around for a yahoo list or something similar which focuses on theses types of issues. Often you can save yourself a lot of research time by talking to other owners who are or have dealt with the same thing.

Here's one (http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/degenerativemyelopathylist/), if I m not confusing your dog's condition with something else.

Third I would research different feeding options. If you need your dog to loose weight, I would think that a senior formula kibble, which is heavy on the carbs, wouldn't be ideal and again, in my personal opinion, I don't think Hill's is the best option both in terms of helping the dog cope with a specific condition, nor in terms of taking care of her over all health.

So, what does that leave you with? Perhaps it means finding a kibble which meets any specific requirements you get from your vet and adding supplements suited to the situation. It could also mean designing a homecooked or raw diet which again, meets all of the dog's specific needs. There are many books and web resources available to help get you started on that if that's the route you choose, and the advantage is you can tailor it to your individual dog.

Whatever you choose to do, I think it's worth being straight forward with your vet and asking for the information you need to make your decision a fully informed one.

ETA: Here's an article (http://neuro.vetmed.ufl.edu/neuro/DM_Web/DMofGS.htm) you may find interesting. It encourages a homecooked diet, and though I think the specific recipe is not ideal and could certainly be improved upon, it might give you some ideas to work from.

Sabine
July 9th, 2008, 02:29 PM
Honestly - I don't trust a vet's knowledge about canine nutrition too much, unless he/she has specialized/researched the subject. ;)
I would seek out the advice of a person who has ample knowledge about canine nutrition and go from there. That's, what I would do. One thing's for sure though: I would NOT for the life of me feed Hill's ! !

kathryn
July 9th, 2008, 02:55 PM
Geee thanks for making this board all confusing you guys :crazy:

I just got into a very small argument over Science Diet and Hills in general with someone on Yahoo Answers. Someone posted saying their cat was on feline c/d and wasn't getting better.feed them something better with alot of moisture and feed them more canned then dried. I also suggested some raw feeding.. A few people agreed with me but someone else was acting like Hills stuff was a magical cure.. ridiculous.

Anyways... for supplements it's easier to do it in treat form.

I looked up the food from the OP and see it's for joint pain.. and the only thing that makes it special for joint pain is.... Glucosamine and Chondroitin apparently?

So why would we waste a ton of money on a bag of corn with **some** supplements in it..


http://www.dogswell.com/?title=happy+hips

Is your dog suffering from achy joints or a severe limp? Are you trying to maintain your dog's healthy hips and joints? Try HAPPY HIPS® premium jerky treats with glucosamine and chondroitin.
PRODUCT HIGHLIGHTS
All-Natural, Cage-Free Chicken Breast
With Functional Benefits
With Antioxidants
With Glucosamine and Chondroitin
INGREDIENTS
Chicken Breast, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Chondroitin Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement
NUTRITIONAL INFORMATION
crude protein 70% (min)
crude fat 1% (min)
crude fat 5% (max)
crude fiber 1% (max)
moisture 16% (max)
vitamin E 10000i.u./kg (min)
glucosamine hydrochloride 2000mg/kg (min)
chondroitin sulfate 1000mg/kg (min)




I mostly just came here to re-assure myself that I was right and the person on Y!A was wrong :p

lm9012
July 9th, 2008, 03:56 PM
I learned the hard way that vets aren't necessarily the experts on dog nutrition..sad but true. Now it depends on the vet of course, but many of them recommend the food that sponored their classes in vet school! I fed my dog Hill's K/D when he was first diagnosed with kidney disease. I got hit with this sickness I didn't know what to do..i'd fed him holistic, human grade food before...but I trusted my vet that he knew what was best. Albert was on this food a lousy 3 months and he GAINED FIVE POUNDS, the kidney disease progressed even faster, and he got yeast infections in both ears!! THe ingredients are horrendous and I just KNEW that there had to be a better way!! My vet argued that because ALbert was older(7yrs), and lived a sedentary lifestyle he had put on the weight..umm, no. Nothing changed except his diet. Granted he was sick now and has always been laid back...no excuse to put on so much weight so quickly especially with him being on the onset of arthritis!! :wall:

Please, please, please do your research. You can get glucosamine supplements to add to the food. Nothing beats fresh meat and veggies!

Over a year later since Al was diagnosed, the disease has come to a SCREECHING HALT and his kidney function has actually IMPROVED. All I did was switch him to home cooking, and added vitamins and supplements!!

I am a true believer and convert now! If I'd kept him on Hill's he'd be dead by now. I finally have a vet that is very well versed in dog nutrition, recommends foods like Wellness and Canidae and agrees that things like omega 3s, and CoQ10 and even Vitamin E can work wonders. Plus nothing beats fresh, natural food.

Sabine
July 9th, 2008, 04:01 PM
Amen !! :pray:

Chaser
July 9th, 2008, 04:11 PM
Amen !! :pray:

I second that.

Chris21711
July 11th, 2008, 12:41 PM
Even though this thread was not started by me and I butted in with similar concerns. I just want to thank you all and have printed it off and given it to my daughter's friend. They went on vacation yesterday and we are going to discuss it when she gets back. Rainbow has brought up a valuable point with Dr. Lee on my original thread, it would appear that Science Diet is not very forthcoming in even answering queries from a Vet :confused:

Toonces
July 11th, 2008, 08:43 PM
I really don't have a problem with Hills food, we have to give it to one of our girls due to bladder stones, switch her to another food and she has stones again and I WILL NOT have her go through another surgery. I think in some cases it works and why mess with something that works, she gets lots of extras, raw food, veggies and fruit and does just fine.... JMHO

Goldens4Ever
July 12th, 2008, 01:52 AM
The Dogswell Happy Hips are made in China.....

I am a canine nutrition specialist in Wisconsin & I don't get too involved here on the forum, but I will say that it would behoove you to find a holistic nutritionist or vet in your area who can help you find a healthy food (someone else also mentioned this). BUT, feeding a 'healthy' food is NOT just merely about the ingredients, as there are many other variables to consider when determining which food is ideal for your dog(s).

I don't like many of the "senior" formulas out there because they're too low in protein. As dogs age (& humans), the bodies experience muscle catabolization, so to fight that, we need more protein & exercise to keep the lean muscle tissue in tact. For dogs that are overweight, it is not always necessary to find a low kcal and/or low fat food to achieve the desired weight...the food just needs to be properly calculated for weight loss. High carbohydrate diets (which always consist of grains), actually makes it more difficult for the body to loose weight because carbs are sugars that turn to fat stores if not turned into energy & burned. There are several other problems that occur as the result of eating high carb diets. One of these is diabetes - same as in the human body.

Dogs are carnivores & should eat as such: moderate/high protein (dependent on variables), moderate/high fat (dependent upon variables), low fiber, & low carb

As Pitgrrl mentioned, you need to examine your vets' background in canine nutrition, specifically, to determine what type of education they received & WHO TAUGHT THE COURSE. The schools have the big name companies come in & teach them about their products......

rainbow
July 12th, 2008, 03:28 PM
I am a canine nutrition specialist in Wisconsin & I don't get too involved here on the forum


Any chance you'd like to start getting involved? :goodvibes:

pitgrrl
July 12th, 2008, 04:04 PM
Any chance you'd like to start getting involved? :goodvibes:

Seeeeeeeeeeeeriously!:D

Chaser
July 12th, 2008, 04:20 PM
Goldens4Ever - Your advice would be welcomed and appreciated by all I think!

Toonces
July 12th, 2008, 04:35 PM
I agree with the rest, if you can tell me what other kind of food to feed Brandy that will prevent stones I would be thrilled, we have tried them all and after urine samples are tested we always have to go back to Hills, like I said I don't have a problem feeding her that food but if there is something better that could prevent them we would give it a try

pitgrrl
July 19th, 2008, 03:45 PM
Big Dog Mom, did you ever figure out what you were going to do?

Sabine
July 19th, 2008, 09:04 PM
I adopted a seriously overweight dachshund two years ago. He weighed 39 pounds and was on a commercial diet. Cheap stuff. One year later, after he was being put on an all natural, species appropriate diet by me, he was down to his ideal weight of 22 pounds and has kept that weight ever since. He also got hit by a car when he was with his previous owner and suffers from a stiff neck and a sometimes sore hind leg. He also has lyme disease, which tends to bother him on and off. All these ailments have drastically improved since he was put on a healthy diet of "Honest Kitchen" Force and Embark and raw meat. I have a titer done on his Lyme Disease on an annual basis and his titer is well under 30. (Right around 10 at the moment) I am a firm believer, that good nutrition makes for a healthier pet.
My guys haven't seen the vet since they've been switched over to this kind of food.
http://666kb.com/i/b0ijwrawnjoiqmtrh.jpg
Happy campers. :)

Big Dog Mom
July 20th, 2008, 12:04 AM
Big Dog Mom, did you ever figure out what you were going to do?

Sorta...

I have about a third of a bag of J/D left. I am going to use it, but next Wednesday, when I take Maggie up for therapy, I am going to have a conversation with her specialist about it. My mommy instinct is that there are much better (and cheaper...) foods out there than J/D. But what's turning me off is that I'm trying to take three or four pounds off of Maggie, and even though I've cut back on the quantity of kibble, Maggie hasn't lost an ounce, and I think it's because the J/D is too carb heavy. Your thoughts?

I am giving Maggie 800 IU of Vitamin E a day now, supplementing with Glucosamine/Chrondroitin/MSM, 15 ml of Cod Liver Oil, and just started a Vitamin B Complex like Dr. Lee talked about.

I may have mentioned in another thread that Maggie is having acupunture, electrical stimulus therapy, laser therapy, and hydrotherapy for her degenerative myelopathy, and I can honestly say that after three sessions, I can see a change. She's not like she was 5 years ago, but there are subtle improvements (no more peeing in the house, getting up a little easier, staying up longer when she's up, more alert,...).

Goldens4Ever
July 20th, 2008, 12:12 AM
Sorta...

......But what's turning me off is that I'm trying to take three or four pounds off of Maggie, and even though I've cut back on the quantity of kibble, Maggie hasn't lost an ounce, and I think it's because the J/D is too carb heavy. .......

The carbohydrate content in a food makes a significant difference, not only in weight loss, but other areas too. :yuck:

Carbs are sugars that are placed in fat stores unless they're burned & turned into energy. Dogs bodies should rely upon protein & fat for energy - not carbs. Remove the grains (carbs) & the weight falls off, if appropriately calculated for weight loss. :dog:

Big Dog Mom
July 20th, 2008, 12:19 AM
The carbohydrate content in a food makes a significant difference, not only in weight loss, but other areas too. :yuck:

Carbs are sugars that are placed in fat stores unless they're burned & turned into energy. Dogs bodies should rely upon protein & fat for energy - not carbs. Remove the grains (carbs) & the weight falls off, if appropriately calculated for weight loss. :dog:

THIS MAKES TOTAL SENSE TO ME. I just personally lost 60 pounds, and the way I did it was cutting out pretty much all carbs and all sugar. So if that worked for me, I can see how it could work for Maggie as well. I honestly believe that if I was feeding Maggie the same quantity of Wellness Senior as I am now feeding her J/D, I think she would have dropped a little weight by now.

Case in point is that I have NOT reduced her brother's kibble quantity and switched him over to J/D as well, and I think he may actually have put on a few pounds - he's going to the doc for a checkup on Wednesday, too, so if he gained weight, that will be all the evidence I need to go back to Wellness Senior, unless you guys think there is a better kibble-base.

Oh, BTW, my friend's dog is on J/D, and they just raised their prices. She paid almost $73 USD for a 30 pound bag this week. That is just ridiculous. Wellness Senior is about $53 USD.

Goldens4Ever
July 20th, 2008, 12:24 AM
THIS MAKES TOTAL SENSE TO ME. I just personally lost 60 pounds, and the way I did it was cutting out pretty much all carbs and all sugar. So if that worked for me, I can see how it could work for Maggie as well. I honestly believe that if I was feeding Maggie the same quantity of Wellness Senior as I am now feeding her J/D, I think she would have dropped a little weight by now....

This is why so many dogs (& humans) have Type II Diabetes. Too much carbs (sugars) in the diet.

Anyway, many "senior" formulas are too low in protein. As dogs (& humans) age, the body actually needs more protein because the lean muscle tissues experience catabolization (the muscle eats itself) unless we increase protein & exercise. Be sure that whatever food you choose has AT LEAST 26% protein & try adding some hard-boiled eggs & raw meat as well. It is ideal to feed raw meat separately from kibble because they are digested at different rates. Maybe some raw in the morning & kibble in the evening, or visa versa. I LOVE Primal & Nature's Variety raw patties & bones - they are just awesome!!!!!!!

But, if you've tried eliminating the grains, increasing exercise, etc. & nothing works, then it may be time to check the thyroid.

pitgrrl
July 20th, 2008, 09:21 AM
THIS MAKES TOTAL SENSE TO ME. I just personally lost 60 pounds, and the way I did it was cutting out pretty much all carbs and all sugar.

Actually, case in point, one of my dogs, no matter how little kibble we fed him and how much exercise we gave him, was always a chunker. It was just impossible to take weight off this dog.....until we cut out grains entirely and went to a raw diet.Weight dropped off with no effort and people keep commenting on how both dogs looks younger now than they did a few years ago :laughing:

Let us know what happens with the specialist. I hope you can figure something out that works.

Big Dog Mom
July 20th, 2008, 11:05 AM
I supplement Maggie's (and Maxx's) meal with different meats, fish or eggs with every meal - sometimes chicken, sometimes liver, sometimes fish. I tried the raw diet on Maxx and Maggie a few years back and they both rejected it, which I didn't expect. Tried both Primal and Nature's Variety. Maggie can't exercise very much because of the DM - limited strength in the back legs.

What do you guys think is a good kibble base? Do you like the Wellness Senior? What do you like?

BTW, I failed to mention earlier that Maggie is hypothroid, and has been on thyrosyn for a few years now.

Goldens4Ever
July 20th, 2008, 10:54 PM
....Do you like the Wellness Senior?...

"Senior" formulas are somewhat of a farce to me. Many of the commercial companies formulate those senior formulas with too low of protein & too low of fat. They should have moderate to high(er) levels of protein & moderate fat. Orijen does have a good senior formula though.

You don't necessarily have to feed a "senior" formula - I never will. As long as it contains appropriate levels of protein & fat, that is what's important. But, because she does struggle with weight issues, you have another dilemma. HOWEVER, in my practice, I have found that increasing the fat content (with Nutiva Organic Extra Virgin Coconut Oil) actually helps dogs loose weight because increased fat leads to increased energy, which helps their bodies burn more calories.

solo-nicolas
July 21st, 2008, 02:56 PM
Does anyone have food recommendations for a 15 month old lab (Solo) and a 2 year old cat (Nicolas). Are certain foods more suitable to specific breeds?

http://www.mytechassistant.com/images/solonic.jpg

Big Dog Mom
July 22nd, 2008, 06:10 PM
I was told that Orijen is only available in Canada.

Is this true?

clm
July 22nd, 2008, 07:11 PM
Here's all the stores that carry Orijen in Colorado.



COLORADO



Arvada
Paws N Play

7403 Grandview Ave

Arvada, CO 80002

Phone: (303) 420-2525

Aurora

Pet Palace

4082 Parker Rd

Aurora, CO 80014

Phone: (303) 699-4554



Samanthaz Katz & Dogz

22978 E. Smoky Hill Rd

Aurora, CO 80016

Phone: (303) 627-7387

Boulder



P.C.’s Pantry

2600 30th Street

Boulder, CO 80301

Phone: (303) 245-9909

Whole Pets

2835 Pearl St

Boulder, CO 80302

Phone: (303) 444-4733

Breckenridge

Paws & Claws

1705 Airport Rd Unit 3

Breckenridge, CO 80424

Phone: (970) 547-9633

Brighton

Play! Stay! & More LLC

184 E. Bromley Lane

Brighton, CO 80601

Phone: (303) 659-7676

Castle Rock

Bennington Mercantile

200 Perry St

Castle Rock, CO 80104

Phone: (303) 688-3016

Colorado Springs

Healthy Products for Colorado

108 E Cheyenne Rd

Colorado Springs, CO 80906

Phone: (719) 650-8481

Mike's Natural Pet Market

3620 Jeannine Drive

Colorado Springs, CO 80917-8001

Phone: (719) 570-1488

Conifer

Healthy Pet Supply

25797 Conifer Rd #A

Conifer, CO 80433

Phone: (303) 816-7003

Denver

Chewy's Bonetique

200 Quebec St

Denver, CO

Phone: (303) 344-2663


Earth Dog Denver LLC

370 Kalamath St

Denver, CO 80223

Phone: (303) 534-8700

Mouthfull's

4224 Tennyson St

Denver, CO 80212

Phone: (720) 855-7505

Quality Paws Natural Pet, Inc

46 Broadway

Denver, CO 80203

Phone: (303) 778-PAWS

FAX: (303) 778-0788

www.qualitypaws.com

Elizabeth

Magic Dog

796 E Kiowa Ave (HWY 86)

Elizabeth, CO 80107

Phone: (303) 646-8900

Estes Park

Estes Park Pet Supply

543 E Wonderview Ave

Estes Park, CO 80517

Phone: (970) 586-8442



Evergreen

Chow Down

3719 Evergreen Parkway

Evergreen, CO 80437

Phone: (303) 674-8711

Healthy Pet Supply

1254 Bergen Parkway

Evergreen, CO 80439

Phone: (303) 679-1028

Fairplay

Chow Down

503 HWY 285

Fairplay, CO

Phone: (719) 836-4909

Ft Collins

Poudre Feed - South

6204 S. College Ave

Ft Collins, CO 80525

Phone: (970) 225-1255

Golden

Gold n Paws

710 Golden Ridge Rd

Golden, CO 80401

Phone: (303) 278-8566

Lakewood

Cosmo's the Retail Store

10210 West 26 Ave

Lakewood, CO 80215

Phone: (303) 232-1477

Lafayette

Struttin Pup

1385 Forest Park Circle

Lafayette, CO

Phone: (303) 665-3038



Littleton

Hero’s Pets

8086 W. Bowles Ave

Littleton, CO 80123

Phone: (303) 972-1926

Longmont

Blue Hill’s Dog & Cat Shop

2255 N Main St

Longmont, CO 80501

Phone: (303) 651-2955

Four Paws & Company

1225 Ken Pratt Blvd #108

Longmont, CO 80501

Phone: (303) 485-1565

Parker

Essential Pet LLC

9841 S Parker Rd

Parker, CO 80134

Phone: (303) 805-6545

For Paws Bakery & Pet Spa

17051 E Lincoln Ave.

Parker, CO 80134

Phone: (303) 840-5999

www.forpawsbakery.net

Muttz N' Stuff

12620 Washington Lane #303

Parker, CO 80112

Phone: (303) 790-9490

www.muttznstuff.com

Westminster

Muttz Pet Goods & Gifts

11225 Decautur Street

Westminster, CO 80234

Phone: (303) 460-0117

Big Dog Mom
July 23rd, 2008, 11:19 PM
Thanks, CLM. I am going to check it out in Boulder.

BTW, Maxx went to the vet today and guess what? HE WEIGHS MORE THAN HE HAS EVER WEIGHED IN HIS LIFE, and he's only been on J/D for about 5 weeks. He went from 109 to 114, a pound a week. That's whack.

R.I.P. J/D, at least for Maxx.

Goldens4Ever
July 23rd, 2008, 11:27 PM
.... HE WEIGHS MORE THAN HE HAS EVER WEIGHED IN HIS LIFE, and he's only been on J/D for about 5 weeks. He went from 109 to 114, a pound a week....

That's very sad - sorry to hear you're struggling so. :sad:

The J/D is almost 50% carbohydrate....that's the problem. :sick: And, it's WAY TOO LOW in protein. The protein needs to be significantly INCREASED & the fiber & carbs need to be DECREASED.

But, when you switch to a noncommercial food, don't forget about the detox stage. I recently had an article published on this. Please see attached.

Kariburley
January 1st, 2009, 05:39 PM
I have a senior male Rotti/Shepard cross , after a breif visit to the vet hospital after an allergic reaction J/D was recommended to me for his hips and weight issue .

Before that he was on nutro senior dog food w/ glucosomine , Rymidal for his hips and a glucosomine supplement , and thyriod meds !

He has been on Jd for 6 months now and no difference I am putting him back on the nutro or something else that is within that price range , I spend over $200.00 a month on his food and pills alone , its just too expensive and since its not doing anything different , I just can't see the point .

With 3 cats as well one with food allegries and a senior cat with early kidney failure , I swear the vets must get a cut from the food companies for pushing their extremey high priced products .

Any suggestions for dog food would be greatly appreciated .

thanks

Kariburley
January 1st, 2009, 05:43 PM
Who makes wellness senior i might like to try it if I can get it in Canada .

Stacer
January 1st, 2009, 06:02 PM
Based on earlier replies, you're probably better off not using a senior formula, but going with a high protein low/no grain diet.

Orijen was mentioned and I know from personal experience that it is a truly awesome food and it's made right in Alberta!!

solo-nicolas
January 2nd, 2009, 09:20 AM
Try: Global Ryan's Pet Foods
http://www.globalpetfoods.ca/home/home.htm
This pet food retailer sells many of the natural/holistic foods not found anywhere else in Canadian retailers. I suggest a store location query on their site. Good luck, finding the right food for your pet is challenging but well worth it :thumbs up

zomo
January 2nd, 2009, 04:59 PM
Everyday people come to our store and they tell us how they were recommended Hills for their dogs. I shudder every time I hear this because I have reviewed the ingredients and in my opinion they are not great. One food in particular, made me want to cry :" RD" ingriedients ground whole grain corn, Powdered cellulose, Chicken by products, soybean meal, peanut hulls, BHA BHT and ethoxyquin . Need I say more ! :wall: How could this food be recommended by a vet?

bendyfoot
January 2nd, 2009, 10:18 PM
Our GSD was put on a similar food (purina joint care). We also found it very expensive and were skeptical about the benefits. We later learned more about dog nutrition and commercial pet foods and discovered that most vet diets are full of crap ingredients that can do more harm than good (fillers, etc.). Since most of the "joint-healthy" ingredients are actually derived from fish (ie omega fa's) I would recommend finding a good grain-free fish-based food such as Orijen six fresh fish instead. You may also consider supplementing with raw chicken necks which are loaded with cartillage, great for joints.

lm9012
January 5th, 2009, 12:36 PM
Have you considered home cooking? I know it can be a bit scary in the beginning..we are always worried we'll screw it up. I do it now, out of necessity, because of kidney deficiency. But i wish I'd done it from the beginning.

There are a lot of really good formulas of commercial dog food. I know Wellness, Orijen, and EVO offer high protein stuff. You don't need to bother with senior formulas.

Hill's in my opinion isn't worth the cost. You are right that the vets shove it down our throats because that company is who sponsored their class in vet school or whatever. So they offer it. I would only say get on a vet rx food if your dog is really ill and must be on a strict diet. and even then, I think if you educate yourself, you can come up with a home made diet or a combo home/commercial to feed that can be just as beneficial! My dog did terrible on Hills. Got gross yeast infections and gained tons of weight..his coat was dull..it was just awful.

I also suggest getting some supplements in..particularly Omega 3's, vitamin E, and COQ10. Whatever you get in the local drugstore, or health food store is fine.

I highly recommend these supplements for senior dogs, especially larger breeds. They are excellent for circulation and inflammation..not to mention you get the added benefits of shiny coat!

These supps along with home cooking have brought my dog down from onset kidney FAILURE to what we are now calling 'slight renal insufficiency'.. :)
:D:D:D

If they can benefit a really sick dog, imagine how they can help a healthy dog who's just along in years???

of course glucosamine is a good idea, shark cartilage is great too.
of course with all these homeopathic remedies..you have to be consistent in usage and it may take a few weeks for them to work..but they are worth it in my opinion.

I would say get a really good kibble, and begin supplements..even consider supplementing some home cooking too.

gbscri
January 6th, 2009, 10:25 PM
Ok i have been sifting through this thread taking bits a pieces to try and help my situation. I have an almost 4mth old lab and we just switched her to Hills science diet about 2 1/2 weeks ago as i was recommended by my vet and my sisters vet (who has a 5mth old lab) Right now she is teething and not eating much of her food. She is hit and miss. we feed her twice a day. Like today i came home and her breakfast serving was gone, her dinner i still half in her bowl and thats because my husband hand fed her the half. I'm pretty sure the teeth have something to do with it, but now i really think its the food. Although for the first week she gobbled it down. Now i was told in another thread the Hills is not good for your pet which i am so shocked about i never would have thought this. So going forward what do i switch her onto? I want to keep her on dry food and mix in some wet now and then. Any help would be great!

TwistedAngel
January 7th, 2009, 02:22 AM
IMO, what you want to avoid in pet foods is by-products, unnamed animal sources, fillers, and preservatives like BHA, BHT, and ethoxyquin. I personally would also avoid anything with corn, wheat, or soy in it.

Brands that I would feed if I fed commercial foods are:

Orijen
Wellness
Innova
Merrick
Canidae
Natural Balance
Avoderm
Back to Basics
Before Grain
Solid Gold
Wysong
Taste of the Wild
Timberwolf

Please not that I believe that because cats and dogs are carnivores, I believe they should be eating a grain-free diet like Innova Evo, Orijen, Wellness Core, or before grain if a raw or home-cooked diet is not possible, but I understand that not everyone can afford grainless kibble/canned and therefore I listed some brands that I believe to be of good quality for having grains.

flipgirl4
January 7th, 2009, 02:09 PM
Another ingredient prevalent in Hill's and Medi-cal is menadione bisulphite complex - it's a cheap substitute for vitamin K but can cause problems with the liver, disturbs the absorption of natural vitamin K, may cause allergic reatctions and eczema, is toxic in high levels, amongst other problems. It is sometimes called vitamin K3, dimethylprimidinol sulfate as a source of vitamin K activity - it cannot be utilized by the body. It's not regulated as there is no requirement for vitamin K for dogs and dogs have eaten foods that contain it with presumably no problems. This info is from the dogfoodproject.com. I guess I just question why add a cheap substitute for a vitamin that dogs don't even require? Anyway, there are other foods that contain this as well - Purina, Iams, Eukanumba, Nutro etc.

solo-nicolas
January 7th, 2009, 04:52 PM
Not even 6 months ago I was banging my head against a wall trying to find the right dog & cat food. I was fed up with our vet selling us the Medi-cal filler! This wasn't easy! :wall:

My advice to people starting to discover the deceiving world of big brand commercial pet food is to research on they're own, and also check the dogfoodanalysis.com site.

Again, I also recommend Global Ryan's Pet Foods as a trusted pet food retailer. The employees at our location are very friendly and knowledgeable! I would not know where to go for Solo & Nicolas' food if they weren't around. The problem I've found with other pet food retailers is that they're not knowledgeable enough with the good and bad about pet foods. They also don't carry the healthier pet foods on the market. Origen, Innova, Acana, Wellness, etc...

gbscri
January 9th, 2009, 11:55 AM
Thank you for everyones help. Luna is now off Science Diet and is loving Orijen. I feel so much better about what she eats. Thank you everyone for the education, i really appreciate it!

zomo
January 10th, 2009, 06:50 PM
Thank you for everyones help. Luna is now off Science Diet and is loving Orijen. I feel so much better about what she eats. Thank you everyone for the education, i really appreciate it!

Yeahhhhhhh! Great choice glad to see she is doing so well !!!!!!!!!!!!!

geisha
January 11th, 2009, 11:08 PM
If your vet questions the kibble you feed just bring in the ingredient listing, along with the guaranteed analysis etc. then ask to see the ingredient listing of the diet they recommend. :thumbs up

Goldens4Ever
January 18th, 2009, 10:54 PM
If your vet questions the kibble you feed just bring in the ingredient listing, along with the guaranteed analysis etc. then ask to see the ingredient listing of the diet they recommend. :thumbs up

LOL! I would love to see a vet's face when comparing the ingredients. They would probably be so dumbstruck, they wouldn't know what to say. :crazy: But then again, would they even know how to compare the ingredients? :shrug:

RKMaine
January 20th, 2009, 01:43 PM
I have a 3 year old Golden that I love and got from a rescue league about a year ago. He was diagnosed with mild joint disease. The Vet I used to go to placed him on Hill's j/d, Synovi63 granules, and Previcox (as needed for periods of inflammation). Through exercise I've gotten 8 lbs off of his weight in the past 3 months.

I did away with everything but the Hill's j/d because I didn't know what else to give him. I now feed him 1 1/2 cups of the j/d twice a days and add a tbsp of Missing Link Plus for the glucosamine/chondroiton, two tablets of Nutri-vet brewer's yeast, and two capsules of 100mg Fish Oil concentrate.

After reading many of the comments in this forum, I'm realizing that I probably should find a different food for my dog that isn't so high in carbs (not to mention price!). I'm a single bachelor but willing to cook if that's what my dog needs.

I just need a simple, good recommendation for a dry food and what other meat/vegetable combination I should to each of his feedings. I would greatly appreciate all responses.

Thank you for your replies!

Dontbeamoron
January 31st, 2009, 08:14 PM
#1. Dogs are NOT carnivores. They are omnivores, like their relatives the bear. This means they eat plant matter as well as meat. I'm sure you've seen your dog eat grass. And I'm also sure some idiot told you there was a secret reason for it like he knows he is sick and needs to vomit. Dogs will eat lots of stuff--even chicken feed, which is made out of--oh my god--corn and other grains.

#2. "By-products" doesn't mean what you think it means. "By-products" has a legal definition and that definition does not include beaks, feet, feathers, etc. What you think is evil crap is actually ORGAN meats--the most nutritious parts of an animal and the very thing that any canine in the wild would eat FIRST after killing their prey.

#3. The first ingredient on the label is NOT the ingredient that is present in the largest amount in the food--because the ingredients are measured by WEIGHT, and the meat in your dogfood was weighed when it was FRESH. Fresh meat is WET. WATER weighs a LOT. When the meat goes into your dog's food it is of course DRY. Fresh meat minus water equals a lot fewer pounds of meat than you thought were in your dog's food. 10 pounds of fresh meat plus 5 pounds of corn allows the food company to claim their food has more meat than corn, but when the meat is dehydrated to put into your food it's more like a pound or two. So CORN is actually the first ingredient, but the food company they can fool you that way because you have no idea how to interpret a pet food label. Guess what company DOESN'T use this trick in their labeling? Hill's. But they should, because then idiots wouldn't make **** up about how their foods are all corn and by-products.

#3. Food allergies are exceedingly rare. Of all the allergies your dog can get, only about 10% are food-related.

#4. Hill's uses human-grade ingredients and voluntarily submits to human-food-organization inspections of their manufacturing facilities--you could eat off the floor in their plant.

#5. Vets are scientists, with as much training, and more rigorous school entrance requirements than, a human M.D. Your vet does actually know how nutrition works and even how to read the nutrition label. I'd love to see YOUR face after he explains to you what a guillible idiot you are for listening to completely uneducated conspiracy theorist morons on the internet.

I could go on, but suffice it to say, people who have glass skulls shouldn't throw stones. And how do you know I'm not an idiot, too? You don't, so you should educate yourself instead of believing what you read here.

aslan
January 31st, 2009, 08:27 PM
i'm just wondering dontbeamoron, 1 what your credentials are that you seem to think your better informed than anyone here.

2 why for your first post on our forum you find it neccessary to be so RUDE to the Op and anyone else who has posted.

and dogs are closer related to wolves than they are bears.

by anychance are you one of the vet students who should be studying the information your passing out instead of slamming threads on a pet forum.

Dontbeamoron
January 31st, 2009, 08:30 PM
RKMaine, no need to supplement with glucosamine/chondroitin or fatty acids if you're feeding j/d--it has very large quantities of both already built in. You are also helping a lot by getting the weight off your dog. If you want to do more, I would recommend asking your vet about Adequan, which is an injectible drug (made out of similar building blocks to glucosamine and chondroitin) proven to help prevent damage to cartilage and even rebuild it and the joint fluid that helps lubricate your dog's joints. It's incredibly effective. And if you're really motivated and their is a canine rehab facility near you, inquire about things like hydrotherapy (essentially exercising in water with a physical therapist), which can help a lot by building up muscle structure to support the affected joints.

Dontbeamoron
January 31st, 2009, 08:33 PM
And you don't think it's rude to slander a company with absolutely no knowledge of its product, or to insult the intelligence of veterinarians you haven't even met?

I am someone who actually has taken ag nutrition classes and is sick of seeing people make crap up about dog food.

aslan
January 31st, 2009, 08:34 PM
hmmmm can't say i slandered anyone, just asked you a question

You join a forum, don't even say hi, and attack a member. Many of our members are just as well educated if not better. You know what they say about opinions and certain body parts.

You don't know any of the people who posted on here and have been extremely rude and aggressive, try talking with information and intelligence not anger and insults, might get farther.

Dontbeamoron
January 31st, 2009, 08:35 PM
And the failure to even know that dogs aren't carnivores is one really good reason not to listen to the people at dogfoodanalysis.com. Cats are carnivores. Not dogs.

Dontbeamoron
January 31st, 2009, 08:36 PM
Lots of folks here are slandering Hill's and other dog food companies.

14+kitties
January 31st, 2009, 08:38 PM
Thanks. :thumbs up We won't believe everything we read in your post. Thanks for the warning though. ;)

Are dogs related to bears?

From Wiki -

Dogs and bears are in the same order, Carnivora, but different families (dog is Canidae, bear is Ursidae). According to this classification, dogs and bears are no more nearly related to each other than each is to cats (order Carnivora, family Felidae).

Some taxonomists classify creatures into intermediate classifications, such as "suborders" and "suprafamilies" and such. According to some, the order Carnivora contains the suborder Feliformia (cat-like) and Caniformia. Suborder Caniformia contains the family Canidae and the infraorder Arctoidae. Infraorder Arctoide contains the superfamily Ursoidae, which contains the family Ursidae (bears) and the extinct bear-like family Hemicyonidae.

All of this is trying to say that bears and dogs are more closely related to each other than to cats, but not quite in the same family.


http://www.rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html

http://www.dogsobediencetraining.com/info/learn_dog_wiki.htm

I think I will take my education from some well written, well presented research and from people I know have been feeding their dogs a healthy diet rather than from someone who wants to come on and bash us. Thanks very much though!

Dontbeamoron
January 31st, 2009, 08:39 PM
Sorry to everyone here who hasn't slandered anyone or insulted veterinarians' intelligence. I'm angry because I'm offended by people slandering others and because I don't want people to harm their poor dogs because they didn't know the facts.

aslan
January 31st, 2009, 08:40 PM
Lots of folks here are slandering Hill's and other dog food companies.

unless you work for Hills or make a kickback from them, what do you care. Either way this doesn't make being rude acceptable. It doesn't display any intelligence just hostility.

Dontbeamoron
January 31st, 2009, 10:04 PM
Sorry to all those who haven't slandered anyone. I sound angry because I get sick of seeing/hearing the postings from those who have--and also I don't want animals harmed due to misinformation. And because I've eaten too many carbs today and not enough protein. :-)

Love4himies
January 31st, 2009, 10:50 PM
Dontbeamoron:

I feed my cats raw (NOT RECOMMENDED BY MY VET, btw) and canned (Instinct and Wellness). I used to feed my cats kibble and I can tell you that my cats are healthier and happier on the food not recommended by my vet. I can also tell you that my foster kittens who are fed a mostly raw diet with a bit of canned have the best physiques that vets have seen on kittens. Their muscle mass is remarkable. When the vet asks what I feed them I tell them, and then I get the lecture :rolleyes:.

Sooooo what I am trying to say is the vets are not the best source of nutrition. Proof is right before my eyes.

As a matter of fact, while I was waiting for my Sweet Pea's bloodwork results this morning at the vets I saw a huge binder called: "Pet Nurtition" by the CVMA and Hills

Masha
January 31st, 2009, 11:47 PM
As a matter of fact, while I was waiting for my Sweet Pea's bloodwork results this morning at the vets I saw a huge binder called: "Pet Nurtition" by the CVMA and Hills

That is the same problem that I have. I have yet to receive ANY nutrition information from my Vet that did not have the hills logo stamped on it. When they are able to present multiple independent sources, i will gladly read it. But for now, there is no way that i will be using a Hill's advertisement as nutrition info and facts...

In Russia there was no such thing as Hill's or kibble when i was growing up, pets were fed raw food, depending on what was available at the time in the markets and they lived long lives. Dogs did not have 'allergies' and chronic diareah and people didn't need to keep vets on speed dial.

14+kitties
February 1st, 2009, 09:05 AM
Seeing as nothing that has been said here is false...... :shrug: how can it be slander? All that has been said is that there is corn, grains, etc in the food. Not a terrific diet for carnivors.
I really don't see anyone slandering their vets either. All we are saying is that vets tend to believe what they are told by the pet food company. They don't do their own research.
Last year I had a kitten suffering from the runs badly. I was worried about whether or not he was going to make it. He was the runt of the litter. My vet, whom I love, recommended a human med that was supposed to help. Thanks to information I found on this site I knew the meds he was saying to use was no longer safe for pets because of an ingredient change. My vet did not know. He had been telling people to use that for years. I took him in a printout of a few different articles I found on line and he thanked me for it!
Vets are not infallible!

chico2
February 1st, 2009, 10:05 AM
At my former vet,I witnessed several times,how new kitten-owners were talked in to buying Hills,as the best possible food,in the same breath spay/neuter AND DECLAWING was suggested:evil:.
Unexperienced new owners trust their vets to want the best for the animals and do as suggested until they do their research.
I LOVE my new vet,my Vinnie is over-weight and not once did he suggest a diet-food,but to cut out dry free-feeding and keep him on Wellness no grain,canned.
Dontbeamoron,most of us here have had animals forever,I don't think anyone lack intelligence,but when it comes to what I put in to my cats,logic and common sense are my best traits:cat:
Maybe you have stock in Hills:shrug:

sugarcatmom
February 1st, 2009, 12:25 PM
I am someone who actually has taken ag nutrition classes and is sick of seeing people make crap up about dog food.


Maybe you have stock in Hills:shrug:

Or maybe Dontbeamoron "drank the Koolaid": http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=59134&highlight=koolaid

marko
February 1st, 2009, 01:11 PM
Dontbeamoron,

You are new to our forum and are welcome here...but this is a large forum with varied opinions and knowledge.

The way you have introduced yourself to our community is somewhat abrasive and I would ask that you tone it down.

If you or other members wish to respond to this point please PM me.

let's move on to the topic at hand.....

thx
Marko
ADMIN

SuperWanda
February 2nd, 2009, 03:43 PM
I think if your dog has diabetes, he would do best on a low carb, higher protein diet.

The hill's j/d diet is more for joint and mobility problems specifically because of it's high levels of omega-3 fatty acids from fish oil.

The fish oil is a good thing however the ingredients in the food are lower quality.
I would have to agree with the others here and go with a better food with better quality ingredients that is low in carbs and higher in protein for a diabetic dog.

You could still add some fish oil to the food to boost those all important omega-3's if your dog has mobility problems or not.

Love4himies
February 3rd, 2009, 08:00 AM
Do humans do better on a processed food diet or a fresh produce/meat diet? Some pet food is basically a hotdog with a vitamin pill added.

kandy
February 3rd, 2009, 12:50 PM
Because dogs are carnivores, albeit not obligate carnivores but carnivores nonetheless, I prefer to feed a food that has quality meat protein sources. While dogs can digest a variety of grains, they do not have the grinding teeth required to successfully chew grains - which is why wolves eat the contents from the stomach and intestines of their prey. Because dogs cannot process plant protein as efficiently as meat protein, it requires the dog to ingest higher quantities of plant proteins to gain the same nutritional value. A diet that is high in grains, and therefore carbs, can lead to weight problems, lactic acid accumulates in the muscles which can lead to pain in the dog and studies show a relationship between a high carb diet and certain undesirable behaviors (much like giving kids too much sugar). These are just a few of the consequences of feeding a diet high in grains/carbs.

IMO, the AAFCO guidelines allow manufacturers to mislead the public on what is contained in their products. Dog food is not subject to the same strict labeling laws as human food is and it is up to the owners to make sense of it all. For example, a wet food labeled as "beef dinner" does not have to be primarily beef, although the label would imply that it is. Knowing how to read the label, and knowing what those ingredients really mean is the first step in being able to choose a food based on knowledge rather than relying on the cute tv commercials.