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Some decisions are difficult - aggressive cat

catlady999
July 6th, 2008, 09:06 PM
Hello
I recently became aware that a member here is going through a very difficult situation in trying to make hard decisions about a really aggressive cat. I also became aware that people are beating up on her.

I just want to encourage people to be supportive of rescuers even when they make a decision you don't agree with. I have been helping try to save this cat and have detailed descriptions of the cat's behaviour. We have been working very hard to find a solution, but the cat is extremely aggressive, to the point where euthanasia is being considered.

I have a great deal of experience, and I can tell you that this cat is FAR worse than any (non-feral) cat I've ever heard of.

It is my understanding that the person in question came here for advice. That says a lot to me.

Please, people, stop and think about this - if a cat is *so* aggressive that he shreds skin and attacks from across a room, then someone has to make a decision. Nobody wants to euthanize an animal, but I would hate to see a child seriously injured, either.

None of you know me. That's OK. The point is that is a person is really trying, and an animal is not coming around, tough decisions sometimes have to be made. In such cases, beating the person up isn't helpful. Only the person who has the animal can make the decision. If there ARE other (safe) solutions available, then by all means suggest them. If the person is being callous or irresponsible, them by all means, say something.

But if a person is experienced, compassionate, and has tried everything possible to save the animal, then please respect that the only one who can make that decision is the person on the scene.

I think it's very sad when a rescuer - a competent, caring one - considers an animal to be too aggressive to save and makes the tough decision to euthanize. It would be nice if people could support that person, since SHE will be the one crying over the cat, if it comes to that.

minimomma
July 6th, 2008, 09:30 PM
Thank you Cat, and thanks for all your help on a daily basis.

I have a question for you. Do you believe in fixing cats and then releasing them back out in the country and hopefully they will survive. This is what one poster suggested I do with Jake. I have my reasons why I will not do this. I wanted your opinion on this. With Jake and any cat.

I know that we disagree on alot of points but I do respect your opinions even if they differ from mine.

catlady999
July 6th, 2008, 09:53 PM
Well, I don't think we are *that* far apart on MOST things, however....


I think the answer depends on the individual cats. Some cats, if released, will wander off and starve to death. Others will stick around. Any cat that is released should be partially confined long enough to become "re-territory-ized" (ok - I made that up.) Simply put, cats are very territorial. Simply releasing a cat and hoping for the best is a BAD idea, especially if the cat is not already from that territory. Then, they just wander off.

Secondly, any animal that is potentially a public threat should NEVER be released. If there is a chance that the cat will attack another person or animal, releasing it is terribly irresponsible. If the cat attacks someone and cannot be quarantined for 2 weeks, it's a huge problem. If the scratch or bite is bad enough to go for medical treatment, then doctors are LEGALLY REQUIRED to report the bite. If the animal can't be caught, the person has to go through very painful rabies shots. Aggressive animals that have the potential to attack should never be released, no matter how sorry we feel for them. I don't know any feral cat rescue groups (responsible ones, anyway) that support releasing an aggressive animal.

It is up to the person who has the animal, along with his or her vet, to assess the threat the animal poses and to act accordingly.

I would never release a cat that flies across a room and shreds people's limbs. Cat bites can be VERY dangerous and can become life-threatening. They can become very serious very quickly. People have ended up in the hospital over cat bites. Some have lost limbs. Some have even died. The bacteria progresses VERY fast - by the next day, in some cases.

catlady999
July 6th, 2008, 09:58 PM
Here are some links that explain the process of "teaching" a cat where its new territory is. If people just release them and hope for the best, the animal usually ends up dead in an inhumane way.

IMPORTANT NOTE: These links refer to feral cats, not aggressive "tame" cats. Feral cats do not attack people unless cornered, because they simply avoid people. Aggressive "tame" cats, however, can attack.

http://www.petside.com/working-cats-program-helps-save-ferals.html

Or this?

http://www.feralcatcaretakers.org/Caretaking/InterestedParties.html

Or this?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,318936,00.html

Or this?

http://strawberry-lane.blogspot.com/2008/01/cats-on-patrol-for-los-angeles-police.html

Frenchy
July 6th, 2008, 10:17 PM
:confused: :confused: :confused:

CyberKitten
July 8th, 2008, 04:27 PM
I am with Frenchy!! There is no good excuse to euthenize a cat unless the kitty is dying and suffering (verified by a vet!) and there is utterly no hope.

I have rescued more ferals than I can count and it always can be done. It takes patience- and sometimes YEARS - but it can be done. There is NO cat that will always be aggressive. The kitty may have a personality where she or he needs to be an ONLY cat away from children but there are ways to work around the issue.

This is not condemning the individual - just saying for God's sake, never euthenize a cat for aggression. Would we do that to children who are aggressive? No, we'd find the reason for the aggression which is where I would begin here.

And allowing this cat out in a new place is deplorable. Cats need their territory - it is one reason cats whose families move can find their homes, even if thousands of miles away. Not because they miss the people - but they miss THEIR territory. So they need the people with them in the new territory. Some of these suggestions with all due respect are VERY dangerous- to the cat and people!

aslan
July 8th, 2008, 04:53 PM
Unfortunately that isn't totally true ck, we don't know if there is something mentally or physically wrong with the cat. For all we know someone kicked it severly in the head and has caused brain damage. No matter how much we want to save that animal and make it all better, you just can't. I like everyone else would hate to see an animal that can be saved put to sleep. But i haven't seen this animal so i can't say for sure there isn't something seriously wrong with it.

As for just letting it out, it was one of our members who suggested it to this person.

LL1
July 8th, 2008, 05:08 PM
just saying for God's sake, never euthenize a cat for aggression. Would we do that to children who are aggressive? No, we'd find the reason for the aggression which is where I would begin here.




Would you euthanize a dog for aggression?

catlady999
July 8th, 2008, 06:16 PM
I am with Frenchy!! There is no good excuse to euthenize a cat unless the kitty is dying and suffering (verified by a vet!) and there is utterly no hope.

I have rescued more ferals than I can count and it always can be done. It takes patience- and sometimes YEARS - but it can be done. There is NO cat that will always be aggressive. The kitty may have a personality where she or he needs to be an ONLY cat away from children but there are ways to work around the issue.

This is not condemning the individual - just saying for God's sake, never euthenize a cat for aggression. Would we do that to children who are aggressive? No, we'd find the reason for the aggression which is where I would begin here.

And allowing this cat out in a new place is deplorable. Cats need their territory - it is one reason cats whose families move can find their homes, even if thousands of miles away. Not because they miss the people - but they miss THEIR territory. So they need the people with them in the new territory. Some of these suggestions with all due respect are VERY dangerous- to the cat and people!

I believe that on the other thread, she offered to ship the cat to you......


People keep talking about feral cats. THIS CAT IS NOT FERAL. It is an aggressive domestic cat who is flying at the foster mom's face. The foster mom has made it clear - euthanization is a last resort.

It's unrealistic to expect someone to put up with repeatedly risking serious injury from an aggressive animal. How many times must she be bitten before you stop saying "never euthanize?" Does she have to lose an arm to infection? How about losing an eye? Would that meet your acceptable cut-off?

I'd really like to read your answer to that question.

This cat is not "fearful." This cat actively ATTACKS. Attacks - goes after her. Attempts to injure her. Is vicious without provocation.

You mentioned vets' opinions - three different vets have recommended euthanasia, but this rescuer is STILL trying.

You said yourself that releasing it outside is a bad idea. It's easy to say "never euthanize" but what's your solution? Keep getting bitten? Pawn the cat off on someone else so they can get bitten?

Would you like the cat? She offered to pay for shipping!!!

This is not condemning the individual

Yeah, it is. You are not there, and you don't want the cat, presumably, so who are you to judge?

This is EXACTLY what I was talking about in my original post.

There ARE animals that are dangerous. Just because it's a 12 pound cat instead of an 80 pound dog doesn't mean that it's not a threat.

She feels badly enough without getting people's guilt trips.

catlady999
July 8th, 2008, 06:19 PM
Unfortunately that isn't totally true ck, we don't know if there is something mentally or physically wrong with the cat. For all we know someone kicked it severly in the head and has caused brain damage. No matter how much we want to save that animal and make it all better, you just can't. I like everyone else would hate to see an animal that can be saved put to sleep. But i haven't seen this animal so i can't say for sure there isn't something seriously wrong with it.

As for just letting it out, it was one of our members who suggested it to this person.


Thanks for acknowledging the possibility that maybe this cat is permanently damaged, in a way that can't be fixed.

Euthanasia is a last resort. It's very disappointing that someone who is trying everything gets beaten up on forums. Thanks for not contributing to that.

catlady999
July 8th, 2008, 06:34 PM
Would you euthanize a dog for aggression?

If the dog repeatedly attacked someone every time they entered the room showed no improvement, and was a physical danger?
I think you'd have to.

coppperbelle
July 8th, 2008, 08:29 PM
Sometimes I wonder if we go to extreme measures to save the wrong animals. This cat has been given a second chance and clearly it will not be possible right now to place it in a forever home. It may never be possible. While his foster mom is trying many other cats that are adoptable are being euthanized.
It is easy to criticize but would you be willing to take on this cat? I know I wouldn't.

grumpyman
July 8th, 2008, 08:42 PM
I was lurking when all of this hoopla was going on. I have been keeping up with and reading the posts regarding the whole mess. I DID read the postings in the original thread before they were deleted. I also have a very very good memory. This whole thing is getting out of hand. I have decided to join in long enough to set one thing straight.

The ORIGINAL statement that was made was – You have an acreage. You would know what it’s like to deal with ferals. The answer BACK was – Yes, I have one in the basement bathroom at this moment.

That’s the crux of this whole thing. She INSINUATED to the original poster that the cat was FERAL. This is why the original poster suggested neutering, if not already done, and releasing him to the back of the property. It is something that is done with feral cats by rescues in the country all the time. So – get the story straight and let’s go from there.

Catlady999 – You keep saying THIS CAT IS NOT FERAL. Do you think if the original poster had known that the poster would have made the assumptions that were made? I think the answer may have been quite different.

As for the statement made that the poster made a comment about maxing credit cards, etc…….. It’s in the Forum Rules. Read them, know them, live with them.

Grow up people! Let’s start over and have a wonderful debate about why this formerly tame cat could possibly have changed to a raving mad animal. Both sides have valid points.
Enjoy and goodbye

catlady999
July 8th, 2008, 08:53 PM
Catlady999 – You keep saying THIS CAT IS NOT FERAL. Do you think if the original poster had known that the poster would have made the assumptions that were made? I think the answer may have been quite different.



I missed the original discussion, so I won't comment on that. But when I made the original post in THIS thread, I made it quite clear that this was NOT a feral. And people attacked anyway.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter if the cat is feral or not. What matters is that the cat is ATTCKING people and that's what is at issue here. And someone who considers euthanasia - as a last resort - shouldn't be beaten up over it. It's rude and it's presumptive. And THAT was my point on the first post of THIS thread.

grumpyman
July 8th, 2008, 08:57 PM
I missed the original discussion, so I won't comment on that.

You are right. You missed the original discussion, therefore you SHOULDN'T be commenting on that.

aslan
July 8th, 2008, 09:07 PM
ummm grumpyman, now you are the one on the attack, not starting anew. Come on guys, we all know what we would like to happen in a perfect world. Unfortunately we don't live there. We don't know this cat was normal in the past, for all we know he/she attacked its previous owner. I have seen what a vicious cat can do, as has chico2 and many others here. For all we know the cat IS in some sort of pain, whether physical or mental.

Please try and help the OP.

I will defend 14+ at this point, i have no doubt that she thought the cat was a feral and posted as such. This woman has busted her a$$ helping cats and doesn't deserve to be bashed anymore than the OP does.

catlady999
July 8th, 2008, 09:19 PM
I missed the original discussion, so I won't comment on that.

You are right. You missed the original discussion, therefore you SHOULDN'T be commenting on that.

I was commenting on the fact that a rescuer who is TRYING shouldn't be beaten up for considering euthanasia. I didn't have to see the original post to advocate that principle.

And even if your point is true, the subsequent attacks on the "photography" sub forum have convinced me that that's exactly what is going on here. A person comes on here for advice, and got beaten up. I went through the same thing when I posted on the "good cat from a bad home" thread.

This is probably the rudest forum I have EVER encountered. Anybody with a different POV is set upon like a pack of wolves on a rabbit. I don't think some of the people here even READ the concept - they just automatically dismiss it because they don't agree. It doesn't matter how much info is supplied - it gets twisted and misquoted.

There are a few existing posters who seem to understand, but the rest seem to be more interested in attacking than helping.

And, while we're at it, your quote:
As for the statement made that the poster made a comment about maxing credit cards, etc…….. It’s in the Forum Rules. Read them, know them, live with them.


I went and read the rules. It said "most posters will max out their credit cards." I have done that MANY times. Your statement presumes that the person with the aggressive cat HASN'T.

This kind of arrogant dismissiveness drives people away. I have been involved in cat rescues for 30 years. I have dealt with every kind of cat disease I can think of, I have dealt with feral cats, aggressive domestic cats, fostering, and shelter cats. I know an immense amount of information about which provincial regulations apply to shelters and vets. In short - I have a ton of experience. I guess you don't care about that. I could have given something to this forum, but you are obviously only interested in beating up anybody who isn't in a little clique. It's beyond pathetic.

If any of the more reasonable people wish to contact me by pm. please do so. I will stick around for a couple of days, and then I'm gone.

minimomma
July 8th, 2008, 09:29 PM
I don't know what to say at this point.

I am sorry that some of you feel the way you do. It is great to have opinions and comments in regards to putting this animal down. I have 2 small children 5 and 3. I don't care at this point if the cat rips me apart. I am a big girl. ( I have been kicked and stomped on by horses) This cat has torn up my husbands arm. What am I supposed to do.. please tell me. My vet is coming out to tranq him and we are going to see from there. I know some people say to build him a huge enclosure. To be honest let's look at this. This enclosure will cost at least 1000 dollars plus. I have to finish paying off a 1500 vet bill that I have for another rescue. I have a 7500 dollar vet bill for another horse. I may have to pay 750 for an upcoming C section for another rescue. My animal bills for the rescues per month on average. Roughly 1200 to 1500 dollars a month. My husband is military ( he makes no money) I work a full time job to help animals in need. NO ONE WANTS TO TAKE THIS CAT. NO ONE. I called the SPCA today they said yes bring him in.. pay the charge and they will put him to sleep. NO CAT RESCUE WILL TAKE this cat
At this point- most people would put the cat down. This cat is a danger. I have enough critters and experience rescuing all animals to know this. So for all of those that feel that no Cat should be PUT down... Please take him. I will pay for the shipping. Because I do not know what to do. And there is NO WAY, I am going to release this cat outside. I will not feel guilty for the rest of my life if this Cat attacks another individual.


If my orginal post to 14 was misread then I am sorry. Things are always are like that on forums. She does a good job with all those cats.. I give her lots of respect. All she did was ask. By the way, I never said ferral cat. She commented on a hissing cat. I SAID I have one of those in my bathroom. BIG DIFFERENCE

aslan
July 8th, 2008, 09:33 PM
Ok boys and girls, so now you've heard both sides of the story.... No more bashing, does anyone have any HELPFUL advice on what to do. Does anyone really think its fair to lock the cat up all the time, drug it into a stupor, put it outside. I personally don't know what the OP can do at this point. CK,Frency,Stacer anyone really what do you suggest? I'm not being a biatch i'm asking a serious question.

Stacer
July 8th, 2008, 09:43 PM
I posted my thoughts on the other thread dedicated to this exact same cat.

I think this situation has run it's course, there is no solution in sight and I think the OP should do what she feels is right for the cat.

It's all round a horrible situation and I don't envy the OP for what she might have to do. But this bickering is not helping the cat.

aslan
July 8th, 2008, 09:45 PM
exactly, thank you stacer, calmer minds prevail sometimes. Sometimes we all just answer from the heart.

sugarcatmom
July 8th, 2008, 09:47 PM
does anyone have any HELPFUL advice on what to do.

This may seem way out there for some people, but what about an animal communicator? Try to get the cat's perspective on all of this.

Stacer
July 8th, 2008, 09:49 PM
This may seem way out there for some people, but what about an animal communicator? Try to get the cat's perspective on all of this.

Interesting, new age, a little bit kooky, but perhaps worth a try.

aslan
July 8th, 2008, 09:55 PM
This may seem way out there for some people, but what about an animal communicator? Try to get the cat's perspective on all of this.

yay, i was soooo waiting for you.

coppperbelle
July 8th, 2008, 09:59 PM
I don't know what to say at this point.

I am sorry that some of you feel the way you do. It is great to have opinions and comments in regards to putting this animal down. I have 2 small children 5 and 3. I don't care at this point if the cat rips me apart. I am a big girl. ( I have been kicked and stomped on by horses) This cat has torn up my husbands arm. What am I supposed to do.. please tell me. My vet is coming out to tranq him and we are going to see from there. I know some people say to build him a huge enclosure. To be honest let's look at this. This enclosure will cost at least 1000 dollars plus. I have to finish paying off a 1500 vet bill that I have for another rescue. I have a 7500 dollar vet bill for another horse. I may have to pay 750 for an upcoming C section for another rescue. My animal bills for the rescues per month on average. Roughly 1200 to 1500 dollars a month. My husband is military ( he makes no money) I work a full time job to help animals in need. NO ONE WANTS TO TAKE THIS CAT. NO ONE. I called the SPCA today they said yes bring him in.. pay the charge and they will put him to sleep. NO CAT RESCUE WILL TAKE this cat
At this point- most people would put the cat down. This cat is a danger. I have enough critters and experience rescuing all animals to know this. So for all of those that feel that no Cat should be PUT down... Please take him. I will pay for the shipping. Because I do not know what to do. And there is NO WAY, I am going to release this cat outside. I will not feel guilty for the rest of my life if this Cat attacks another individual.


If my orginal post to 14 was misread then I am sorry. Things are always are like that on forums. She does a good job with all those cats.. I give her lots of respect. All she did was ask. By the way, I never said ferral cat. She commented on a hissing cat. I SAID I have one of those in my bathroom. BIG DIFFERENCE


I am sorry you are going through this. It can't be easy. In my opinion and based on your description of his behavior there is something very wrong with this cat and yes would probably have made the decision to euthanize him.
He is dangerous, moreso than a wild animal because a wild animal will avoid people. A tame cat will not.
You know what is best for this cat and if anyone else thinks that what you decide is wrong then they should take on this cat and do what they can with it. It is easy to be an armchair quarterback. Being out in the field is a different story.
Good luck to you and don't give up.

Frenchy
July 8th, 2008, 10:00 PM
CK,Frency,Stacer anyone really what do you suggest? I'm not being a biatch i'm asking a serious question.

I would start be getting this cat to a vet and have him checked out. Try some meds too , rescue remedy , those plug ins , something prescribes by the vet.

I don't see why the poster hasn't already try this. :shrug:

aslan
July 8th, 2008, 10:13 PM
at some point it was mentioned that the vet has seen him twice and will be returning and tranquilizing the cat to take blood. The vet recommended putting the cat down as i recall. Rescue remedy or feliway might work. Liking sugarcat's suggestion.

minimomma
July 8th, 2008, 10:19 PM
For some reason it feels as if I am being interogated.. LOL.. Should of listened more to hubby when he was explaining this to me.

First and foremost- Someone mentioned the spray on this forum and I went out and purchased it Yesterday. Then I asked where do I get this rescue formula, I received the answer on the other thread. Thanks I can't remember who said where to get it.

2ndly My vet has seen this cat. She came out on 2 different occassions to help out with one of my many rescues. She told me that he may need some time to calm down. Then she had to come out once again, She looked at him and he tried to attack her. ( again she was out with yet another one of my rescues) She did not have her tranq gun on this visit in order to sedate him. My vet is mobile. She is coming out Sunday- Like I have mentioned over and over again to tranq him. This is the only time she can come out here as she has some other 911 cases and surgery's. I have phoned a couple of different vets as well for advice as well.

Would you like the number of the person who approached me about this cat or the nurses who captured this cat out of the lady's home. I am not trying to be rude but I have one 2 different threads provided as much information that I know. If you have any other questions please ask. Would it help if I get a video of this cat attacking meand post it on YOU tube. I can also phone my husband in saskatchewan. He is on his snipers course right now, to take pictures of the scars on his arm. He is also trained to give details accounts on things. He is much better then I am. I know this is coming out rudely and it is not meant to.

For those that posted kind words, thank you from the bottom of my heart. It means so much to me as I hate to fail.

minimomma
July 8th, 2008, 10:27 PM
Also for those that have given me suggestions. Thank you again. I didn't mention it in the other posts. I am now looking into the Animal communicator. The only one I can find is in Calgary. I have sent an email.

Thanks for the suggestions

aslan
July 8th, 2008, 10:31 PM
minimomma, i'm glad to hear you are taking sugarcats advice, she is one of the bestest kitty caretakers here. And very knowledgeable about most kitty stuff.

minimomma
July 8th, 2008, 10:35 PM
I am hoping that she will come all the way up here because I am not sure if I want to travel 5.5 hours to her with jake in his cage... So hopefully she will respond to my email.

Just for some more information. When I was talking to the SPCA- they transfered me to their behavior professional. She gave me some good advice but she is also very concerned with the reactions of this kitty as I explained everything that I have tried. She also said that my only option would be to put him down. Depending on the outcome of the vet of course.

Love4himies
July 9th, 2008, 07:56 AM
Is it possible to have one of the threads closed and continued on one? It is difficult to keep going back and forth on the same topic.

sugarcatmom
July 9th, 2008, 08:11 AM
Depending on the animal communicator's technique, she may not actually have to see Jake in person. Sometimes a photo is enough, some don't even need that much. I know it seems like a pretty whacky thing to do, and I was a total skeptic at one time, but I've also seen how much it has helped other people with their cat issues (never used a communicator personally, although if I had a problem that I thought would benefit from it, I wouldn't hesitate).

Anyway, I'm also glad that Jake is going to get a thorough vet check. I'm concerned that you say he's getting worse, which does seem to me like it might turn out to be a medical issue. In another post somewhere, you mentioned that the nurse that was first looking after Jake tried to give him some Gravol, I'm assuming by pilling. Was she able to handle him somewhat at that point? And now he's basically "unhandleable"? Is Jake eating/drinking okay? Using the litter box appropriately?

chico2
July 9th, 2008, 08:38 AM
Minimomma,I did not even know there was another thread on the subject of Jake,a more civil one at that:thumbs up
I believe there is a strong possibility Jake is in pain and goes in to a frenzie with anyone approaching.
I would not be surprised if your vet will find broken ribs,a skull-fracture or something else very painful.
I am hoping you will come back to us and let us know the results,even if the solution is euthanazia.

marko
July 9th, 2008, 10:13 AM
This thread has run its course and will now be closed. I can add an update once we get one (Just Pm me).

As always we encourage diplomacy and politeness at all times. It's really the only way people learn.

Thanks in advance,

Marko