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New Cat from Bad Home

lawgrl77
July 6th, 2008, 08:05 PM
Hi,

This is my first post...we already own one 4 year old, female kitty and just adopted a 2 year old, male kitty who was rescued from a puppy mill that decided to start breeding cats too. According to the rescue group it was a really bad situation (disgusting conditions, etc), typical puppy mill mess.:mad:

Physically he was very skinny when they got him and going bald in spots (some hair has started growing back and he's nice and plump now). I assume that he was neglected-I don't think those people cared to interact much with the dogs and cats (or take care of them at all :frustrated:...).

We put him in one of our bedrooms with food, water, and a litter box. He went under the bed and had wedged himself between a blanket we have stored underneath and the box spring (head first, naturally!). I expected him to be shy and am not surprised that he ran for cover! My question is how long should he be under the bed before I start to worry about him (days, weeks)? And what, if anything, can we do to make his transition to him new home easier for him? I've never owned an animal that was abused/neglected before and really want to make sure that I'm helping him and not making things worse (i.e. pestering him, etc).

thekatzmeow
July 6th, 2008, 08:45 PM
I am new to being a cat-owner myself -- so I hesitate in giving you any advice. But, big kudo's to you for taking her in!! That's a positive start in her new life! :angel2:

mona_b
July 6th, 2008, 08:47 PM
Some people suck don't they....:wall::wall:

My partner went through this.

It may take weeks or even months.Depends on the cat.

Give him a couple of days to adjust to the surroundings.What my partner started to do was sit on the floor.He would talk to ruby in a soft voice.He stayed in the room for a bit then left.He went back in and did the same thing.Then his wife went in and did the same thing.Talking in a soft voice.Ruby at times peeked her head out.Then they brought in treats.They scattered a few on the floor.Ruby started to come out and investigate.And started to eat the treats.

She then started coming out more.They just sat there and let Ruby walk around.They didn't go to her.And each day Ruby got closer to them.

Ruby now walks around the whole house.She is still a bit leary of new people.She's getting used to me.She's even starting to get used to the dogs.

Give your baby some time.Sounds like he's been through he!!.

Oh,and thanks for rescuing him.:thumbs up

catlady999
July 6th, 2008, 09:41 PM
He'll come out once he feels safe. And he will come out for food and poops when you are not looking.

One hint is to let him come to you. Cats (even friendly cats) HATE to be persued. Don't try to get him out from under the bed. Let him do it himself.

OR

You can use the opposite technique - restrict him to a small area like a bathroom where there is no place to hide. Then, he will have to deal with you. Once he finds out that you are NOT an axe murderer, he will stop shrinking from you. Once he comes to you for pets, then he can be let out to the rest of the house. (He might run under the bed at that point.

The main thing is - never chase him (i.e. never make him THINK he's being chased, even if he isn't.) Always behave in a way that his little brain will say "ah - I am not being chased. OK."

mona_b
July 6th, 2008, 10:21 PM
You can use the opposite technique - restrict him to a small area like a bathroom where there is no place to hide. Then, he will have to deal with you.

IMHO,I wouldn't do this.The poor cat is stressed enough.You don't want to make matters worse.And I believe doing this would.

Frenchy
July 6th, 2008, 10:39 PM
IMHO,I wouldn't do this.The poor cat is stressed enough.You don't want to make matters worse.And I believe doing this would.

I totally agree Monab.

lawgrl77
July 6th, 2008, 11:12 PM
Thanks everybody...I feel a lot better now.

I've been doing just what mona_b said: coming in to visit him and just sitting by the bed and talking to him for a while and then leaving him alone. He hasn't come out yet but he does seem to be relaxing some (not in such a little ball...just a slightly looser ball).

I put his food and water dish just under the bed and I think he ate and drank some while I was out. Sneaky thing!

Well, we'll see what tomorrow brings. He's a sweet guy, I just know he'll be OK once he gets settled in a little bit more. I'll keep you all posted.

catlady999
July 6th, 2008, 11:20 PM
The reason I gave two options is because it depends on the cat. Some cats respond very well to having limited space to roam and hide in, while others will come out from under a bed on their own. Having only a small territory is much less overwhelming for a cat than having a big area.

I should clarify - if you put a cat in a restricted area, like the bathroom, you can put a "hidey box" in there with the cat, to reduce stress.

But if the cat will not come out on its own in a reasonable time, it's because it doesn't feel safe. In that case, allowing a cat to continue to hide reinforces the hiding behaviour.

Basically, the cat is fearful, so it hides. Then, it feels less fearful. This is negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is NOT punishment. It means the removal of something undesirable - in this case, fear. In most cases, cats desire for human attention overcomes their fear. In this case, the positive reinforcement (getting attention) outweighs the negative reinforcement (reducing the anxiety, by hiding.) However, in some cats, the relief of hiding (negative reinforcement) GREATER than the desire for human companionship. These cats will just stay under the bed all the time. A good example would be feral kittens.If you let them be, they are never going to come out.

When you put an animal in a small space like a bathroom, it is fearful. The alternative to the effects of positive vs negative reinforcement (above) is to use something called "extinction." Warm scratchies and pets are incompatible with fear. A cat can't enjoy chin scratchies and stay uptight at the same time. By learning that you are a source of nice things, socialization is positively reinforced, while fear is extinguished (stamped out.) In the case of feral kittens, for example, this works very well. Feral kittens have a hypothesis - "she's going to hurt me." Keeping them in a small area forces them to "sample the null hypothesis" - in other words "she's not going to kill me.

Some (non-feral) animals will come out from under the bed on their own (paragraph #1) and some won't. If the cat does not come out on its own, allowing it to remain under the bed indefinitely is not helpful.

When confined to a small space (WITH a hidey box) a cat will become used to that small space quickly. This can sometimes aid socialization.

Which method is used depends on the individual cat. MOST cats will come out on their own. Some have to be retrained to regard human interaction as desirable.

Chaser
July 6th, 2008, 11:25 PM
He hasn't come out yet but he does seem to be relaxing some (not in such a little ball...just a slightly looser ball).

I feel sad that he's so scared :sad:...but I bet he's a cute little "ball". Please keep us posted and put up pictures as soon as you can get some without causing him trauma :) Congrats on rescuing....you are doing a wonderful thing!

mona_b
July 6th, 2008, 11:29 PM
Keep up the good work..:thumbs up

It will pay off in the long run...It just takes time and patience...;)

mona_b
July 6th, 2008, 11:39 PM
catlady999,this poor cat has had a hard life as it is.And probably lived in some sort of cage with filth.And to me putting it in a bathroom just doesn't cut it.He deserves better.Don't you think??

If I was this cat,I would definately not want to be in a small space coming from a small space.But that's just me.:)

He is stressed and fearful.As was my partners cat.And Ruby came out of her shell.It just takes time and patience.:)

catlady999
July 6th, 2008, 11:52 PM
catlady999,this poor cat has had a hard life as it is.And probably lived in some sort of cage with filth.And to me putting it in a bathroom just doesn't cut it.He deserves better.Don't you think??

If I was this cat,I would definately not want to be in a small space coming from a small space.But that's just me.:)

He is stressed and fearful.As was my partners cat.And Ruby came out of her shell.It just takes time and patience.:)

I've been quite clear - it depends on the cat. Some will come out on their own and some won't. In terms of "he deserves better" - he deserves whichever treatment will reduce his fear the fastest. Every cat is different.

I did not say that the bathroom (WITH a hidey box) was the best option in all cases. It depends on the individual cat.

I have extensive experience taming feral kittens. If you leave it up to them, they will not come out. Having a cat come out on its own is preferable. But if you wait too, long, that can backfire and the cat will perpetually hide.

Do you understand negative reinforcement and extinction? Because if you don't, then you won't understand what I am trying to say.

catlady999
July 7th, 2008, 12:01 AM
catlady999,this poor cat has had a hard life as it is.And probably lived in some sort of cage with filth.And to me putting it in a bathroom just doesn't cut it.He deserves better.Don't you think??

If I was this cat,I would definately not want to be in a small space coming from a small space.But that's just me.:)



A cramped dirty cage is NOT the same as a small room with a cozy place to lie and the ability to move around and stretch out. Animals that have BEEN in small cages and then are put into a huge, unpredicatable, uncontrollable space that is unfamiliar are often VERY stressed. A controlled space is MUCH easier for them from a transitional perspective. Then, the allowed space is made bigger and bigger.

You are looking at things from a human perspective - a human who has known freedom. Freedom is sometimes overwhelming for an animal that has never known it. It's like taking a house cat and tossing them outside. They are usually terrified because it's new and unpredictable, and too much. If you let a house cat out in a fenced-in garden, they will do better than if you put it in the middle of a park. Cats need to adjust to change gradually. DOGS will take the park, 9 times out of 10. But cats are not dogs, and they're not humans, either. Gradual increments work very well in most cases. Too much too soon and they can freak out.

You can't think like a human. You have to think like a cat.

mona_b
July 7th, 2008, 12:29 AM
See I'm not thinking feral with this cat.This cat hasn't lived on the streets,it wasn't born on the street.Seems like he was born within the he!! hole he came from.

Yes every cat is different.I know that.I have two very different cats myself.

Animals that have BEEN in small cages and then are put into a huge, unpredicatable, uncontrollable space that is unfamiliar are often VERY stressed. A controlled space is MUCH easier for them from a transitional perspective. Then, the allowed space is made bigger and bigger.

Umm not really.When I adopeted my 2 ,I got them home and put them in my bedroom.And they did VERY well.They hid a bit.But in no time they were all over the place in the bedroom.And they were in cages.

Listen,I'm not one to start any bickering.And this is lawgrl77 thread.

I gave her advice since my partner went through this and it worked.So lets just see how things go.

lawgrl77,so what's his name?..Has your female scenced the male?How is she acting?

catlady999
July 7th, 2008, 12:37 AM
People should be open to options.

I don't know why I have to repeat myself. I said

I did not say that the bathroom (WITH a hidey box) was the best option in all cases. It depends on the individual cat.

I also said Some cats respond very well to having limited space to roam and hide in, while others will come out from under a bed on their own.

and I also saidHaving a cat come out on its own is preferable. But if you wait too, long, that can backfire and the cat will perpetually hide.



Different cats respond to different things. Trying to apply ONE rule to ALL cats isn't appropriate. You have to assess each case separately.

If the cat won't come out, there is another option. WHAT is wrong with that?

catlady999
July 7th, 2008, 12:41 AM
I gave her advice since my partner went through this and it worked.So lets just see how things go.



Having a "plan B" already in place is USUALLY regarded as a GOOD thing.:rolleyes:

There is nothing wrong with a thorough discussion of the options. Then, she can pick the one that works best for THIS cat. If one is not working, try another. You seem set on considering only one single course of action. Why is that?

mona_b
July 7th, 2008, 12:47 AM
If the cat won't come out, there is another option. WHAT is wrong with that?

NOTHING is wrong with that...But you have to give this cat a chance to come out..HE is in a new enviroment..HE hasn't been with her that long.:wall::wall:

lawgrl77,keep doing what your doing....;)

Chaser
July 7th, 2008, 12:52 AM
And this is lawgrl77 thread.

catlady - you are spending a great deal of time trying to convince mona_b of your views when this IS lawgrl77's thread. If lawgrl wants to take your advice she will. Supporting her and taking an interest in her cat is far more important than arguing.

catlady999
July 7th, 2008, 12:57 AM
NOTHING is wrong with that...But you have to give this cat a chance to come out..HE is in a new enviroment..HE hasn't been with her that long.:wall::wall:

lawgrl77,keep doing what your doing....;)

I DID say that would be preferable. If your memory fails you, please check back.

So, don't hit your head over my responses - It's not my fault you are not reading my posts accurately

catlady999
July 7th, 2008, 01:01 AM
catlady - you are spending a great deal of time trying to convince mona_b of your views when this IS lawgrl77's thread. If lawgrl wants to take your advice she will. Supporting her and taking an interest in her cat is far more important than arguing.

No - *I* am presenting OPTIONS. YOU are the ones who are trying to convince her to do what you want.

She asked for advice. I gave her multiple options. So what's the problem?

I keep saying - EVERY CAT IS DIFFERENT.

Lawgrl - choose the best option for the cat. If letting it stay under the bed is gradually working, then go with that. If it's not, then you have another option.

Supporting her and taking an interest in her cat is far more important than arguing.

I am taking an interest in her cat. I am giving her detailed information on her options. It's called being thorough.

minimomma
July 7th, 2008, 01:14 AM
as a person that has hmm a problem cat. It is good to have lots of options. I have learned alot from different people and tried a lot of things to help my problem cat....

Everyone has different ways of doing things.....and every cat is different I have 7 cats and one foster... and everyone is unique.

rainbow
July 7th, 2008, 01:18 AM
catlady999, it seems to me that you think that only your opinions are right. Everyone has a right to give their own opinon and you should respect that.

minimomma
July 7th, 2008, 01:25 AM
Sorry, I have read nowhere that Catlady said she is right. All I have read was people giving different options. Then Catlady defending her options based on each cats situation. Every cat and every person is different...

catlady999
July 7th, 2008, 01:26 AM
My opinion is the same as everyone else's - coming out from under the bed on his own is preferable. I've said it at least 5 times. What's your point?

The only difference is that I have supplied a backup plan and explained the merits of an alternate course of action.

The people who refuse to consider other options are the ones who think that their opinions are right, not me.

I have presented TWO choices. Emphasis on the word choice. The rest of you are stuck on ONE choice. How does that make ME the person who thinks only my opinions are right? I am open to either choice, depending on the needs of the individual cat.

There are TWO choices here. I SPECIFICALLY SAID to do the one that was BEST FOR THE INDIVIDUAL CAT.

Can none of you people read? Seriously.

catlady999
July 7th, 2008, 02:05 AM
catlady999, it seems to me that you think that only your opinions are right. Everyone has a right to give their own opinon and you should respect that.

First of all, I did not give an opinion - I gave two options.

I never EVER said that letting the cat come out on its own was "wrong." In fact, I said it was my first choice.

Second, everyone jumped on me for what I said and told me *I* was wrong. Which is pretty funny, since I agreed with you all. Talk about not respecting other people's opinions!

Any vet or behaviourist would give you multiple options, based on solid principles. Or at least any good one would. They'd explain both thoroghly and then let you choose. The difference is that the vet would get a hundred bucks for giving choices, and all I've gotten is attacked.

Nice. Very nice

thekatzmeow
July 7th, 2008, 07:08 AM
Whoa! Guess you don't need cats to have a cat fight. :cry:

Love4himies
July 7th, 2008, 07:45 AM
lawgrl77, how is your kitty doing today?

I am glad to hear he is in a "smaller ball" poor soul, he had such a hard life.

badger
July 7th, 2008, 08:46 AM
Whoa! Guess you don't need cats to have a cat fight.
:laughing::laughing:
Lawgrl, you're doing exactly what I do, quiet place (in my case, a small bathroom is the only option - lord, the kitties it's seen), good food and voice therapy. It's such a huge change for him, but he'll come around.
However, I would put off introducing him to your other cat until he relaxes and begins to bond with you (allows himself to be touched, etc.). It may be awhile before he lets himself be picked up, if ever, but I don't put much stock in that, some cats just don't like it. But you should have a good 'handle' on him before integrating.

Jim Hall
July 7th, 2008, 08:52 AM
Give him a couple of days to adjust to the surroundings.What my partner started to do was sit on the floor.He would talk to ruby in a soft voice.He stayed in the room for a bit then left.He went back in and did the same thing.Then his wife went in and did the same thing.Talking in a soft voice.Ruby at times peeked her head out.Then they brought in treats.They scattered a few on the floor.Ruby started to come out and investigate.And started to eat the treats.

thats wht i have done for most shy kitties

as long as he is pooping peeing and eating just be patient it took DU about 6 weeks to come out and interact and tgey were very small steps lol
i think what haooens is boredom wins out and the cat says screw it whats out there ?

She then started coming out more.They just sat there and let Ruby walk around.They didn't go to her.And each day Ruby got closer to them.

Ruby now walks around the whole house.She is still a bit leary of new people.She's getting used to me.She's even starting to get used to the dogs.

Give your baby some time.Sounds like he's been through

lawgrl77
July 7th, 2008, 12:32 PM
Hey, everybody!

Thank you sooo much for writing back!

When we went to sleep last night he was still under the bed in his little ball. I was worried because he hadn't really moved at all but thought maybe he would relax a little when the lights went out and everybody was asleep and sure enough it worked!

I'm a light sleeper so I woke up in the middle of the night when I heard some sounds coming from under the bed. He was trying to back out of the little hole he made for himself but was wedged in there so good that he really had to work at it! He finally got himself dislodged and I heard him walking around a little (hardwood floors) and then crunching on some kitty food.

When I woke up this morning he was under the nightstand, kinda looking out at everything...progress!

I sat down on the floor next to him and talked to him for a minute and then he stuck his head out a little so I let him sniff my hand and low and behold...that cat LOVES to be rubbed!:lovestruck: He let me pet him and scratch his head-purring and making biscuits (kneading) the whole time! He even came out from under the night stand about half way so I could rub him better...what a ham!

I'm gonna go back in there in just a minute to check on him again (it's been a couple of hours) and give him some more pets if he wants them.

I'll get some sneaky pics as soon as he some all the way out!

I'll keep everybody posted...thanks again for all your help!:cloud9:

Love4himies
July 7th, 2008, 12:34 PM
OMG that is great news :thumbs up:cloud9:. Jim had suggested I sit in the room and talk to the semi feral kittens I am fostering and it worked great!

14+kitties
July 7th, 2008, 12:46 PM
That is fantastic news!!!!!!! Sometimes patience is all it takes with kitties. :grouphug: Keep up the great work!! :thumbs up

clm
July 7th, 2008, 01:03 PM
yes that is wonderful news. Some cats are so skittish, most don't take to change well anyway, but there are those that take an aweful long time to come around. I'd says your fellow is coming along quickly. :thumbs up
Can't wait to see some sneaky pics, just don't use a flash, you might scare him.

Cindy

Chaser
July 7th, 2008, 01:12 PM
Awww....that is great news! :highfive: Can't wait to see the little guy :cloud9:

mona_b
July 7th, 2008, 01:29 PM
Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy...:highfive:

OMG,I have goosebumps....I'm soooo happy.We need a happy dance smiley..LOL

Time and patience is the trick.;)

Can't wait for the pics....:D

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO what's his name?

catlady999
July 7th, 2008, 01:47 PM
Wonderful! He must think he won the kitty lottery!

lawgrl77
July 7th, 2008, 04:32 PM
He's out....he's out! Well for a while anyway:thumbs up

I went to check on him again this afternoon and he seemed to like it so much that I decided to stay a little longer. He was doing that thing where he would come about half way out to get rubs and scratches and then...he was all the way out, just like that!

I totally underestimated him...I can't believe how quick that was. Considering how bad his last "home" (if you could call it that:mad:) was, I didn't think he's be so well adjusted...but I'm happy to be wrong about that!

And the best part is that he's not just out and about, he's really funny and a little saucy! He's even already interested in our other cat Twiggy; playing with her under the door, etc. (we're gonna take that one slow:cat:).

I'm going to get some sneaky pics (no flash) tonight and put them up...and I forgot to say, his name is Jimbo (my husband loves FSU football:laughing:).

Jim Hall
July 7th, 2008, 05:14 PM
well thats great didnt take long at all

allfurlove
July 7th, 2008, 06:54 PM
Sorry, I have read nowhere that Catlady said she is right. All I have read was people giving different options. Then Catlady defending her options based on each cats situation. Every cat and every person is different...

Yes, me too.
I think everyone is just a little confused as to the previous socialization of the cat. If the cat has had some positive human interaction in it's life and was not kept in a tiny cage, its probably going to be just fine where it is.
However if that is not the case, Catlady is also right in saying the cat will be overwhelmed in such a large area and may be better off in a smaller area because it will feel safer and be ready to explore that smaller area sooner.

I know I am a newbie, but I work with hundreds of cats with different temperments and history's, so I just thought I would add my :2cents:

Chaser
July 7th, 2008, 07:02 PM
I can't believe how fast he is coming around lawgrl77 - sounds like you're doing a fantastic job :thumbs up

allfurlove
July 7th, 2008, 08:04 PM
That is great news lawgrl! Sounds like he is progressing well. Bless you for saving him from that terrible place.

CyberKitten
July 8th, 2008, 04:12 PM
Great news re progress! I think you almost have to treat him as a feral cat - except fior a small space. Kitten mills are so small that this will surely stress him and I agree with Frenchy and whoever said this was a bad idea. It is a horrible idea with all due respect. He will so stressed that you may loose what ever trust there was to start with, ie none.

I would also leave quite -easy listening, classical- music on - read to him, talk to him, leave im something to play with - many of these cats have never played and that is so sad but teach him gradually and he will understand.

Make certain he EATS!!! Keep food nearby but not close to his litter box. Let him make the moves to come to you and have all kinds of patience!!! Do not reach for him - or ever yell at him. (even accidentally) Do NOT replicate any of his past (ie the small space) but give him attention in a way that is non threatening and that he knows you are there- make him curious- but let him adjust. He will determine his territory.

These kittens and cats are so sad!! It makes me cry to see victims of cats mills! Good luck and thank you fr saving him form a life of misery!

chico2
July 9th, 2008, 04:58 PM
I just read all the posts and lawgrrl,you are doing great:thumbs up
Jimbo must think he ended up in heaven,thank you for rescuing him,I am sure he'll give you years of thank you's.
Can't wait to see pics of this little boy:thumbs up

Jim Hall
July 9th, 2008, 06:48 PM
how thi kitty did u naem him yet ?

rainbow
July 9th, 2008, 07:30 PM
WOO HOO.....glad to hear the great news and that the first option worked. :thumbs up

Looking forward to seeing pics of Jimbo. :cat:

Jim Hall
July 9th, 2008, 08:22 PM
did you make a more comfortable space for him asmall blanket and one of your used t shirts maybe unnder the n stand with a little cat nip on it

the only thing i dont like about kits under a bed is that its dusty and not all that healthy even though MS Du spent a good 2 months under mine

catlady999
July 10th, 2008, 12:01 AM
I think you almost have to treat him as a feral cat - except fior a small space. Kitten mills are so small that this will surely stress him and I agree with Frenchy and whoever said this was a bad idea. It is a horrible idea with all due respect. !

I had decided to post no more about the aggressive cat. I came back here today to try to help. I gave someone info today about bringing a dog in from Bermuda. And I gave some help to someone training a kitten to walk on a leash. I could have helped in many other ways.

And then I came over here and read this. It is possible to disagree without bashing another person's idea, and then to say "with due respect" is just trite.

I have NEVER seen such rudeness. (with all due respect). It just never stops.

I offered TWO options and - in fact - my very first sentence was "he will probably come out on his own."

But no, (several) people had to bash me. My observations about the territorial issues with cats were valid for SOME cats.

I had a VERY nice PM/IM discussion with a couple of people. But this stuff is just nastiness, obviously intended to drive away anyone you don't agree with. (with all due respect)

Congratulations. It worked.

Jim Hall
July 10th, 2008, 08:51 AM
well i for one hope you do not leave you have some good advice

some of the posters do seem curt and rude but it relly is not just a little to
strident and passionate

14+kitties
July 10th, 2008, 10:16 AM
How is Jimbo doing today? We need to see pics of the little :angel: soon!! He sounds like he is going to adjust to the loving life very easily!! :cloud9:

yettiyodamarlo
July 11th, 2008, 01:38 AM
A cramped dirty cage is NOT the same as a small room with a cozy place to lie and the ability to move around and stretch out. ... Gradual increments work very well in most cases. Too much too soon and they can freak out.

You can't think like a human. You have to think like a cat.


I agree with this user.

Just like with any new young pet, keeping them to a smaller place at first makes them become more comfortable with their surroundings, especially if they came from a place that had less room in it. You can let them out if they want to come out right away, or maybe you need to do it bit by bit.

Abused animals just need to know that you love and care for them, and clearly you do :) so never stop reasurring.

Also, I believe a user got upset by the bathroom comment that I quoted above? I'm sure the person I quoted used a bathroom as an instance because in households bathrooms tend to be small spaces, but if your bathroom isn't a place you'd like your cat to reside, surely there is a fair substituition.

Good Luck with your new cat! :thumbs up

luckypenny
July 11th, 2008, 05:45 AM
Moving along now...

Wonderful news lawgrl77!

I think now would be the appropriate time to start a new thread in the photo forum so we can all see the lucky kitty too ;) .

Love4himies
July 11th, 2008, 07:12 AM
Moving along now...

Wonderful news lawgrl77!

I think now would be the appropriate time to start a new thread in the photo forum so we can all see the lucky kitty too ;) .

I agree, lp, we need to be seeing some photos of that little cutie:D

14+kitties
July 11th, 2008, 10:32 AM
I agree, lp, we need to be seeing some photos of that little cutie:D

:thumbs up Me too! Did you manage to get those sneaky pics you wanted to take lawgrl77?

thekatzmeow
July 12th, 2008, 07:36 PM
Viewing some pictures is a good idea. Likewise, "moving along" sounds like a great idea, too!! :D I could be wrong; but, it seems like [I]someone [I] is using this board just to play the victim and vent anger. :shrug: Surely, there must be better things to do....