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Just had an argument with the vet

Masha
June 26th, 2008, 07:23 PM
We were just at the vet for Monkey's annual exam and i got into an argument with the new vet over food. Apprently wellness grain-free is bad for cats, instead he should eat something with corn in it because its good for them :wall::mad: She was very adamant about how i need to change his food and that i dont know what i have in my food and how i should go with a company she can trust. It got heated and i told her that i am not changing and thats that. I got so agitated that for the rest of the appointment i was on edge and when she was telling me about how to clean teeth and i interupted her with a question she got all "stop interupting me all the time and then i will be able to get to it" grrrr... . the only reason i interupted her was because i was so aggrevated at this point that i just wanted her to get to the point and leave.

GRRRR.... are there are normal vets??!!

Sabine
June 26th, 2008, 07:32 PM
Without wanting to complain about veterinarians, but when it comes to food they don't know the basics of it. :rolleyes: Just look at the kind of garbage they sell in their practice. That pretty much is self explanatory ! :eek: I don't want to say that all vets are clueless about nutrition, but most of them are. When my large breed dog was a pup my vet suggested to feed him some good food like Eukanuba for puppies.(Including all the euthanized
animals and the phenibarbitol that comes with them ! ) :yuck::frustrated: When I shyly intervened and told him, that I'm feeding raw he almost fell off his chair and said that this is DANGEROUS ! ! DOGS CAN GET SICK FROM RAW MEAT !! :sick::eek: No - when it comes to food, my vet is the last person I'd ask. :rolleyes::angel:

sugarcatmom
June 26th, 2008, 07:38 PM
Oh boy. Well that sucks. I wonder where she got her Cracker Jack "credentials" on feline nutrition - from inside a big 'ol bag of Hill's, I bet. Perhaps you can forward this link (http://www.catnutrition.org/openletter.php) to her for some re-education. And ask her about the last time she saw a cat prowling through a field hunting corn-on-the-cob :rolleyes:.

LavenderRott
June 26th, 2008, 07:40 PM
I remember seeing all of those farm cats grazing for corn in the corn fields last summer too! :laughing:

The next time your vet wants to argue with you about their "great" food - ask them how much nutrition training they have had and if it was one of the wonderful classes taught by a "specialist" from the food company. That should shut them right up.

pitgrrl
June 26th, 2008, 07:56 PM
I don't want to say that all vets are clueless about nutrition, but most of them are.

Ah, but the good ones are those who admit they don't know jack about nutrition. My vet, for example, knows nothing about raw feeding, but when I was first considering it she put me in touch with one of her other clients who'd been feeding raw for many years. She actually gone so far as to say "well I have a prescription diet for that, but I know you don't want to use it, so let me find you another option" Oh how I love her.

Masha, the whole experience sounds h*llish. I've been so enraged by a couple of vets that I almost started crying in the exam room. That's when I started doing vet "interviews" before picking a new one :evil:

aslan
June 26th, 2008, 08:13 PM
Masha, not sure where in toronto you are, but there is a wonderful vet in oakville, named Lisa Burgess, she is a holistic vet and she makes house calls, might wanna google her or contact her and if she's too far see if she can suggest someone with a clue.

ancientgirl
June 26th, 2008, 08:30 PM
Wow, talk about gall! Your cat doesn't have to eat anything your vet trusts, she has to eat what YOU trust. I think I'd have just taken my kitty home right then and there after someone telling me to shut up and stop interrupting.

I hope you find someone less crazy and with less of an attitude.

Masha
June 26th, 2008, 08:41 PM
Thanks guys! I calmed down a bit, makes me feel better when i come here and everyone is on the same page with me. Pittgril, i wish she would have the same approach as your vet.. I dont mind that she doesnt agree with me, i just want her to leave it at the "lets agree to disagree" ... she actually said that "cats do need grains, but good ones like corn":yell:

Well i have seen improvement in my cat since we switched, and my mom's cat had a HUGE improvement too, so no way am i going with her recommendations (she recomended royal canin, eukanuba, medi cal and hills...grrr) thats exactly what we switched away from....

The good thing is this clinic has 3 vets. We have seen two with our dog and this is the first time we have seen this one with our cat. With the other two we have yet to discuss nutrition, so i will stick to them next time, see what happens...

Aslan, thanks for the contact, i will send her an email maybe she can give us a contact for a vet in our area.

I wish i could be like my DH, he jsut stood there cool as a cucumber and listened to her. When we left and i was all upset he told me "who cares what she says, so let her talk, we will still do what we think is right". He was completely unfazed, its amazing!

Thanks guys!

aslan
June 26th, 2008, 08:43 PM
you might want to send this twit to the forum and get her to read the post made about the dog food company's being sued. hmmmm eukanuba and royal canin are among the foods on the list.

Spatx
June 26th, 2008, 08:51 PM
In a way I'm glad to know I'm not the only one out there who doesn't trust their vets judgement about food. At my first appointment with Nova she asked me what I feed - which was Performatrin Ultra (have now switched to Canidae All Life Stages). Anyway, she said it wasn't a great food and that I should try Eukanuba. I won't touch that food. I'm curious to see what she'll say about the new food I'm feeding :rolleyes:

In any case, we are our pets best advocates. I'd like to find a vet around here that actually knows about nutrition, but so far it seems like they are far and few between.

aslan
June 26th, 2008, 08:55 PM
i personally cut and pasted the info on the lawsuit then printed it. Vet has anything to say after reading it, they get a smack. I have no desire to feed my dog others deceased pets or road kill.

Masha
June 26th, 2008, 09:08 PM
Aslan, i just emailed Lisa, cant wait to see who she can recommend in our area. I will pass that contact to my father in law as well who has the same problem with the vets when it comes to his Lab who eats orijen.

Spatx - My GSD eats Canidae as well, and we have yet to discuss it with the vet.... good luck! :rolleyes:

Its funny, but a pet-valu store in our area ha a russian lady worker who used to be a Vet in russia, but who did not retake her exams in canada, so she is not allowed to practice. When we talked to her about food she said not to buy the foods that the vet recommended. I asked her why they carry it in the store then, she said "because we are a chain and we have to, but trust me, i would never carry this if i had a choice, its garbage".

Masha
June 26th, 2008, 09:11 PM
i personally cut and pasted the info on the lawsuit then printed it. Vet has anything to say after reading it, they get a smack. I have no desire to feed my dog others deceased pets or road kill.

Oh yeah, we touched on the subject of the recall today as well. She said 'wellness was recalled too'.. uhmmmm "no it was not" was my reply... she get a little disoriented and said "well other companies were recalled too"... i dont see what her point is? Yeah other companies were, and that is exactly why i am staying away from these other companies....

aslan
June 26th, 2008, 09:12 PM
Good luck with Lisa, i've heard nothing but good about her, my neighbours use her and love her to death. She also doesn't hugely push for unneccessary shots.

MyBirdIsEvil
June 26th, 2008, 09:54 PM
The best thing with vets like that is to just stay away from the nutrition subject altogether.

My vet sells Science Diet (:yuck:) and the conversations go something like this now:

Vet: Science Diet...

Me: I have tried that brand but I'll stick to my own, thanks.

Vet: but...

Me: I've already decided what to feed and won't be switching :)

If they try to go any further than that I just act like I'm not listening and it usually gets the point accross. I don't go to the vet to be sold a certain brand of food for my pets any more than I"d go to my own Dr. so they could sell me some kind of name brand breakfast cereal or something.
Of course, that kind of conversation hasn't happened in months anyway since I think they've figured it out by now :laughing:

Love4himies
June 27th, 2008, 06:49 AM
Now, now people, there is indeed cats in corn fields doing hunting. Just not hunting corn, but the rodents, mmmmmmm raw meat:laughing::laughing:

What a twitty vet, cats should eat corn when they are carnivores:rolleyes:

Tommysmom
June 27th, 2008, 07:02 AM
Masha, not sure where in toronto you are, but there is a wonderful vet in oakville, named Lisa Burgess, she is a holistic vet and she makes house calls, might wanna google her or contact her and if she's too far see if she can suggest someone with a clue.

This is the holistic vet I've been using for Tommy's problems (although I dearly love our regular vet too, we just needed something different to help Tommy out) and I just can't say enough good things about her. I don't know how far you are from her, but she travels through the west GTA and she really is great.

chico2
June 27th, 2008, 07:17 AM
Masha,this is one of the reasons I switch from a multi-vet clinic to my current wonderful vet,it seemed every vet-visit I had to defend my choice of food for my cats and I got sick of it+a whole lot of other reasons.
I told my current vet I feed them Welness canned,but try others too and he was pleased they eat canned over dry,he needs to keep track for future reference I imagine.
Never once did he mention the food in his office,which by the way,he does not carry much of.

ancientgirl
June 27th, 2008, 07:36 AM
My vet is very open to my opinions on food. She even asked me to give her some information and had no problem with my feeding them Wellness. She said if I did my research and that's what I felt comfortable with, and more important, if THEY were doing well on it then no reason to change. Heck, when Maks was still eating raw I asked her her thoughts and she actually said "I don't feel comfortable enough with it since I don't know enough about it, but if you feel comfortable then do what you need to do."

She's switched to working nights now, my clinic is a 24 hour one. I guess my appointments will be a night from now on. In my clinic there is only one vet I won't take my cats to, and they have about 5. She's one that actually told me I should declaw Kiska and Maks when I took them in one day and they were still having their vaccines. Since that day I never wanted her to go near my cats.

onster
June 27th, 2008, 07:56 AM
Is it just me or are foreign vets better educated on nutrition?

My vet used to be a one woman show and she had no idea what orijen was or other brands like that, reccomended vet food.

The newer vet they just hired is not really new, he just came over from europe and did his equivalency. He knew wellness and orijen, said they were good foods :shrug: and now I hear about this russian vet?? hmm..

Masha
June 27th, 2008, 08:25 AM
It seems that vets who didnt learn about nutrition from seminars provided by the food company itself are not biased and end up staying away from these vet recommended stuff...

Love4himies
June 27th, 2008, 09:13 AM
Vets shouldn't need any seminars to know carnivores need meat, human grade meat is better than byproducts and diseased meat, raw is better than processed. It is just logical and common sense. Have the vets even read the ingredients on the food they are selling?

Elizabeth Ann
June 27th, 2008, 10:26 AM
Vets shouldn't need any seminars to know carnivores need meat, human grade meat is better than byproducts and diseased meat, raw is better than processed. It is just logical and common sense. Have the vets even read the ingredients on the food they are selling?

Even if they have read the ingredients list it doesnít matter.

There is no rule saying that pet food manufactures have the list the ingredients in a certain order. And the only regularity system dog food companies have is run by dog food companies. Those labels really donít mean anything.

Jim Hall
June 27th, 2008, 10:43 AM
ok so ive been ferediong cats for years on fancy feast and purina dry they have all lived to 12 yrs or more ( except fpr gimpy who had a bad heart} and all had plenty of energy all the time

My take is if the cat is thriving and has no problems why should i change?

My vet says its better to eat than not eat lol and every cay i have taken to the vet has gotten a wonderfull review my meezer lived to 17 with no hea;th problems except for the last year of her life Du gained 2 lbs and runs around like a kitten when it cool enough


Vets for thew most part dont know squat about nutrition why should they they make money off of sick cats

Sabine
June 27th, 2008, 11:29 AM
Unfortunately, a lot of pet owners don't bother getting information as to where the food comes from they are feeding to their pets. It always makes me cringe, just thinking, that the PRODUCTION COST of your average purina-like garbage is just 7%. The rest is PROFIT ! ! ! (And the food is still dirt-cheap !! ):yuck::eek: That gives you a pretty good idea, what's it's ingredients are. ;):wall:

Frenchy
June 27th, 2008, 11:48 AM
oh boy oh boy , so instead of feeding my cats raw , I should just go in the field behind my house , get the corn and feed it to my cats ? :crazy:

:frustrated:

First thing I said to my vet when I got my first dog (Bailey) was : I don't believe in vet food and I do think we are over vaccinating our animals. :D

we never talked about it again , other than he , 2 years ago , told me that they would give the rabies vaccine every 3 years now instead of EVERY year :rolleyes:

Sabine
June 27th, 2008, 02:15 PM
My dogs got their basic vaccinations and that's it !! Bless you, Dr. Dodd !! :thumbs up I do have a titer done every three years though.......and of course we do have to have that dreadful rabies vaccination every three years, but we are waiting for the seven year shot ! ;)

It's amazing how uninformed consumers will get taken to the cleaners at the cost of their pets' health !:rolleyes:

rainbow
June 27th, 2008, 02:34 PM
Even if they have read the ingredients list it doesnít matter.

There is no rule saying that pet food manufactures have the list the ingredients in a certain order. And the only regularity system dog food companies have is run by dog food companies. Those labels really donít mean anything.


From the FDA website (http://www.fda.gov/cvm/petlabel.htm) ....

Ingredient List All ingredients are required to be listed in order of predominance by weight.


It also goes on to say....

The weights of ingredients are determined as they are added in the formulation, including their inherent water content. This latter fact is important when evaluating relative quantity claims, especially when ingredients of different moisture contents are compared.

For example, one pet food may list "meat" as its first ingredient, and "corn" as its second. The manufacturer doesn't hesitate to point out that its competitor lists "corn" first ("meat meal" is second), suggesting the competitor's product has less animal-source protein than its own. However, meat is very high in moisture (approximately 75% water). On the other hand, water and fat are removed from meat meal, so it is only 10% moisture (what's left is mostly protein and minerals). If we could compare both products on a dry matter basis (mathematically "remove" the water from both ingredients), one could see that the second product had more animal-source protein from meat meal than the first product had from meat, even though the ingredient list suggests otherwise.

That is not to say that the second product has more "meat" than the first, or in fact, any meat at all. Meat meal is not meat per se, since most of the fat and water have been removed by rendering. Ingredients must be listed by their "common or usual" name. Most ingredients on pet food labels have a corresponding definition in the AAFCO Official Publication. For example, "meat" is defined as the "clean flesh of slaughtered mammals and is limited to...the striate muscle...with or without the accompanying and overlying fat and the portions of the skin, sinew, nerve and blood vessels which normally accompany the flesh." On the other hand, "meat meal" is "the rendered product from mammal tissues, exclusive of any added blood, hair, horn, hide trimmings, manure, stomach and rumen contents." Thus, in addition to the processing, it could also contain parts of animals one would not think of as "meat." Meat meal may not be very pleasing to think about eating yourself, even though it's probably more nutritious. Animals do not share in people's aesthetic concerns about the source and composition of their food. Regardless, the distinction must be made in the ingredient list (and in the product name). For this reason, a product containing "lamb meal" cannot be named a "Lamb Dinner."

kiara
June 27th, 2008, 03:05 PM
Sorry I don't agree with you. And by being stubborn your cat will suffer for it! Vets are there to keep your pet healthy for a long time and you should listen to them. They are not there just to make money. (At least not most of them) They are true animal lovers. Believe me they see a lot of pain in this industry. When peoples' pets have to be put down, or doing a surgery that did not help a pet. After a diagnosis of a certain condition, the vet will tell you that a specialty food is recommended. (I consider it preventive veterinary medicine). Either for a short term or life--long. This food is only sold at the vet's. One of my cats is on a special diet, bought at the vet's. For the other I buy at a pet shop. There are some good foods sold at a pet food store too. A vet will let you know which one is good.

sugarcatmom
June 27th, 2008, 03:28 PM
Sorry I don't agree with you. And by being stubborn your cat will suffer for it!

Kiara, I so wish you'd get with the program and do some reading on this issue. You really have no clue and while I've tried to explain it to you in the past, you don't seem to want to listen. In the meantime, it's actually YOUR cats that are suffering for it.

MyBirdIsEvil
June 27th, 2008, 04:08 PM
Vets are there to keep your pet healthy for a long time and you should listen to them

Most veterinarians aren't nutritionists and don't have a very large amount of knowledge on the subject.

After a diagnosis of a certain condition, the vet will tell you that a specialty food is recommended

That's normally based on the fact that certain formulas of food are recommended to veterinarians by the pet food companies themselves. That's why you see different vets selling different brands of food. If you think your vet is recommending you a specific formula and brand of high priced food because they know exactly what your pet needs you're mistaken.


They are not there just to make money

That's the qualifying word. No, they are not there JUST to make money, but many do offer certain products to make money.
My veterinarian doesn't offer high price brands of dog shampoo, dog treats, dog toys, leashes, collars, etc. just for the heck of it.
Not to say most vets aren't worried about the health of the animal, but you seem to think just because someone is a veterinarian they are an encyclopedia of knowledge about pet nutrition. That's simply not the case. It's up to you as the pet owner to educate yourself with several different sources about what kind of nutritional needs your pet has.
It's no different than when you make meal choices for yourself. You probably know what's good and bad for you from various sources other than your doctor.
There's nothing wrong with being an informed consumer.
I'm sorry, but when I question the food my vet recommends and he can not give an explanation as to why the ingredients in that food are necessary (other than the words I can read directly from the company on the bag) that throws up a red flag for me. That says he's NOT recommending food based on nutritional knowledge because he can't even explain the ingredients in the food and why they are in there. I'd really really like to see a veterinarian give an explanation as to why something like peanut hulls is nutritionally necessary or sound. It's not going to happen.