Pets.ca - Pet forum for dogs cats and humans 

-->

New Here & Confused About My Akitas??

SirenOne
June 23rd, 2008, 06:46 PM
:confused::confused::confused: My Female is a little over 2 years old and had her first litter about 10 months ago, she went into heat 3 months after having the puppies...Since then I have not seen any particular signs that she has been in heat??
I bought a Male Akitaat 6 weeks old, very beautiful as is my female, and he is now 5 months old, for a bit there he was very much a horn dog and just wouldn't leave her alone, yet I saw no discharge or bleeding from her?? However, he is as large as she is and that is pretty large, I can imagine what he will be full grown!!I pretty much left them alone in the side yard to themselves, which is their space and large!!
She is very much laid back and gentle, and he is Mr. Vinegar, she has been real finicky with eating her food the past couple of weeks...So I need to know if a 5 month old can Sire puppies because he sure was all over her and his winker sure was active too??
Another thing, I have never had a male and female at the same time, He is downright bossy and assertive as his rights as the male, I guess that's what you would call it?? If I give them both something, he will bark at her and she will immediately drop it and walk away, I have to give him his bone in the house, and give her hers outside, or in another room in the house where he can't see her or she will not eat it, He started all this assertive behavior about two months ago and is this normal between male and female or should I try to keep peace as I have been trying to do??
:sorry::sorry: I need real assist with this stuff!! I was told a male could not Sire until 9 months of age HoweverI am seriously wondering about that??

Thanks to Anyone for Input on this :wall::wall:

Hugs
Siren

sugarcatmom
June 23rd, 2008, 06:57 PM
Why are you breeding dogs if you know so little about them?

erykah1310
June 23rd, 2008, 07:04 PM
I can tell you right off the bat you are not going to get very nice responses to that for so many reasons.

First off, you bred a bitch who was just over a year, clearly no health testing has been done to rule out genetic disorders that your bitch and the sire may have and be passing on to these pups. :wall:

A male can sire a litter as soon as his man bits descend, so this 9 month thing... 100% myth. Odds are great that you are about to have another litter from more non health tested and cleared parents.

It doesnt sound like your 2 Akitas are blending well together, with a dog aggressive (however yes mostly same sex aggression) breed like this you really should get on top of this behavior issue you are having with your male.

I really suggest you find a mentor since you want to breed Akitas and I'm sorry but you are going about this very willy nilly for lack of better words. Other than being beautiful (which I am sure they both are) what do your Akitas have that will benefit the breed down the road?

I have a special place in my heart for Akitas and one day do aspire to show and perhaps breed them, this is why this topic has me so up in arms. There are countless Akitas in shelters looking for their forever homes and more being born from people who are not taking their best interest at heart. (ie, breeding litters who may suffer from any of the many disorders that Akitas are genetically known for)

Please find a mentor, do some research on breeding and what makes a breeder a "good" breeder, think of this situation from a rescuers point of view or even an ethical breeder, then think of all the hard work they do for the breed.

SirenOne
June 23rd, 2008, 07:26 PM
I know quite a bit about Akita's, more the female than the male, or the males behavior around the female, I get that the male is Dominent and etc...
Her first Breeding was Planned, she went into heat as normal, there was no missing it as she bled heavy, then light, the a little heavier again, she was mated with a champion and they mated 3 times...3 months later she went into a heat cycle, it was a normal one, just like the one she had when she was bred...
According to all the information I have looked up she should have gone into heat again already, if so I did not notice as My Male is 5 months old and may have been cleaning her up (someone mentioned that he may have been doing that therefore I may not have noticed her heat cycle), and I noticed her cleaning him up...with the decent weather they have the whole side yard to themselves, what I need to know is can a 5 month old male Sire puppies with her??
He is a beautiful male, she is a beautiful female and they would definitely make some lovely puppies, I just didn't think a 5 month old male could Sire:confused:
This would definitely be an accidental Breeding as I wanted to wait until he was older at least!!
She has also been known to clean up after herself, I have not seen any blood where she sits or lays!!
I did notice him trying to mate with her for about 2 weeks or so, and they were alone alot!!
Therefore I need to know if a 5 month old male can Sire puppies??:pray:

Hugs
Siren

erykah1310
June 23rd, 2008, 07:33 PM
Her first Breeding was Planned, she went into heat as normal, there was no missing it as she bled heavy, then light, the a little heavier again, she was mated with a champion and they mated 3 times...
At a YEAR old though!!! It doesnt matter if the sire for that breeding was a champion or not the fact is, she is TOO YOUNG at a YEAR old to be bred, there is no way she could possibly have cleared any health tests for one, secondly, its just not healthy for a one year old to whelp a litter, that... is irresponsible, you have a far lot more to learn FYI

3 months later she went into a heat cycle, it was a normal one, just like the one she had when she was bred...
According to all the information I have looked up she should have gone into heat again already, if so I did not notice as My Male is 5 months old and may have been cleaning her up (someone mentioned that he may have been doing that therefore I may not have noticed her heat cycle), and I noticed her cleaning him up...with the decent weather they have the whole side yard to themselves, what I need to know is can a 5 month old male Sire puppies with her??

YES a 5 month old is capable of siring a litter of pups, if his testicles have descended... he can do the job. Should he?? No plain and simple as that is unethical.

He is a beautiful male, she is a beautiful female and they would definitely make some lovely puppies,
Shelters are full of lovely dogs...

They dont always have heavy heat cycles, a mentor would have told you this.

LavenderRott
June 23rd, 2008, 07:49 PM
The following are the genetic issues inherint in Akitas.

Hip dysplasia

Cataracts

Microphthalmia

Pemphigus foliaceus

Progressive retinal atrophy

Retinal dysplasia

Sebaceous adenitis

Entropion

Glaucoma

von Willebrand's disease


While some of these are apparent in a young dog, several can not be accurately tested for until the dog is AT LEAST 2 years of age. No ETHICAL breeder would breed their dog until all genetic testing was done to assure that the puppies are as healthy as possible. No breeder worth their salt, who gave a damn about the breed, would breed their Champion male to a 1 year old, untested, unshown female.

Frenchy
June 23rd, 2008, 08:04 PM
I pretty much left them alone in the side yard to themselves, which is their space and large!!




This would definitely be an accidental Breeding as I wanted to wait until he was older at least!!

I did notice him trying to mate with her for about 2 weeks or so, and they were alone alot!!



Accidental breeding ? You're kidding right ? You just wrote you leave them alone a lot ! Sounds to me like your female will have litter after litter .....

MIA
June 23rd, 2008, 08:05 PM
OY VEY. I just want to know WHO plans to breed a 1 year old dog? You need a new mentor one that knows something about breeding. YES your male could have bred her again and YES she could be pregnant again, please get her to a vet.

As well please ensure to chip and tattoo all the puppies in YOUR name so they can always be traced back to you, that is what a reputable breeder does.
:wall:

SirenOne
June 23rd, 2008, 08:40 PM
I Mentioned, if you read it properly, that she is older than 2 years, actually , and I made a mistake on that stupid 3 month thing because my pc wouldn't allow me to edit my post Grrrrrrrr...
She went into a normal heat cycle 3 months after her first litter was born...
Contrary to asumptions we were with the vet with the entire pregnancy and birth, and all her puppies had a nice visit with the vet from her first litter!!
She has been to the Vet for ALL her care, her hips & knees have checked, The people that bought her first litter of puppies are constantly sending me pics of them as they are beautiful and some have gone through puppy classess and training, My Female is very well trained, I trained her!! However my back and neck are so chronic now it's hard for me to sit at the pc and do my graphics and design!!
Therefore, WE are looking for someone to show our Male!!
Thank you for answering my question on the Siring part, makes me feel better and reafirms the fact that what someone else told me is right!!
He will be going to the Vet to get the rest of his shots, because in this state he has to have his license at 4 months old, they changed it from a year to 4 months old!! I also plan on getting him OFA as well...
I was keeping them apart, then other people with animals told me I needed to socialize them with each other asap, so you see how others think!! I agree with you, that if she is going to have puppies, and he is only 5 months old, it should not have happened as I feel he should have been older at least 9 months to a year!! Therefore I agree with you!!
I tried to keep a close eye on them so that if and when she went into heat I could seperate them until her heat cycle was over, but I am serious I did not see any signs at all :shrug::shrug:
I have owned 5 Akitas, I bought 1 then I was hooked, he stole my heart...Then he was stolen from me, which broke my heart...a few years later when I moved back up to the country I bought two more Akitas, a brother and sister, Yoshi passed away, and Lizzie was like the female I have now, gentle, proud, dignified, protective of my grandbabies, she was large and they were in diapers trying to ride her like a horse LOL...She did not take well to having puppies, she had one litter, she refused to feed them therefore I had to buy puppy formula and feed them myself, therefore she was never bred again!!
The children loved her and she them, a police officer wanted to buy one of he puppies if I bred her again, but I didn't...
Now I have these two, I do not plan on having dozens of dogs and continiously breeding them like others do, I will stick with my two for now and that makes me happy...
And yes, I know all about abandoned and homeless, my Vet had one last time I took my Akita in and asked me if I wanted her, given I already had a female, and a puppy comming to me I knew my hands would be tooo full...
Now I will tell you what MY VET told me about My Female Akita I have, as far as breeding and whelping her puppies, she did a great job having the puppies and I was right there helping her, she wouldn't let anyone else near her, the puppies were feeding while she was having others, she was very protective of them, no-one could go near them but me unless she was ready to allow it!! The puppies were large to say the least, and she took very good care of them, she is a good mother!! She will be a good mother with her next litter also!!
I pottie trained the puppies at 61/2 weeks, I would take them all outside in a group and they would do their thing and then we would bring them back in and put them back into the whelping box!!
ALL my puppies went to the vet, I am not as niave as you may think I am...
It was the behavior of My male that screwed me up!!! and the to know whether or not he could sire a litter of puppies...
I do agree with you all that I need a Mentor, However I don't have any volunteers :shrug::shrug:

Hugs
Siren

MIA
June 23rd, 2008, 08:45 PM
[B]
It was the behavior of My male that screwed me up!!! and the to know whether or not he could sire a litter of puppies...


You are responsible for those dogs, nobody else and if you are breeding dogs you should KNOW if and when a male can sire puppies.

Usually the breeder of the dog who sold you those dogs would be helping you with showing/breeding etc so I gather they came from a less than desirable breeder, so no you won't find good breeders lining up to help you. You need to find a reputable breeder who will start you off right which means maybe fixing the dogs you have an starting over.

Breeding is very serious and can take YEARS to learn and see what a good breeding dog is. Akita's shouldn't be bred and sold lightly, they are a serious dog and shouldn't just be sold to anyone, I love the breed but they are not for everyone and not everyone can handle them. Please be very careful who you sell these dogs to and I encourage you to find a proper breeder to learn from.

LavenderRott
June 23rd, 2008, 08:51 PM
You know what - we are a pretty easy to get along with group but if you want answers to questions, on assumes that you are willing to read answers and are open minded enough to learn from others who may have more experience then you.

YOUR vet - unless he is a specialist - is going to look at the general health of your dog and tell you it is just fine to breed.

As for genetic issues - unless your vet is an orthopedic vet, he is not going to grade your dogs hips and knees. Unless he is also an opthmalic specialist, he is not going to be grading your dogs eyes. And I seriously doubt that he tested your dog for Von Willebrand's disease.

This forum is very much pro rescue. But you will find that we are quite willing to stand behind a good, ETHICAL breeder.

luckypenny
June 23rd, 2008, 08:52 PM
I do agree with you all that I need a Mentor, However I don't have any volunteers :shrug::shrug:

Um, that's probably because an ethical experienced breeder may not want to work with someone who had her dog bred at a year old :shrug: . That's pretty much the equivalent of allowing your 12 year granddaughter to have a baby :rolleyes: .

If your male puppy has behavioral issues, there's yet another reason, amongst others already mentioned, not to allow him to sire.

Have you questioned yourself as to why it's so important for you to breed your dogs? Just because they're beautiful? That's a pretty lame reason in my books. I think my dogs are gorgeous too and I'm sure that's what the owners of their parents thought as well. Too bad they didn't take into account the suffering they had to endure and didn't foresee them ending up at shelters :frustrated: .

Frenchy
June 23rd, 2008, 09:13 PM
I think my dogs are gorgeous too and I'm sure that's what the owners of their parents thought as well. Too bad they didn't take into account the suffering they had to endure and didn't foresee them ending up at shelters :frustrated: .

Very well said LP. :sad:

SirenOne
June 23rd, 2008, 09:16 PM
Frenchy, I really was listening to other people on this subject and did not feel and was not told that a 5 month old could Sire puppies, and you are right, my bad for listening to bad advice!! I really should have kept them apart the moment I saw him going after her, so that is on me also...but yes, accidental breeding, I know a woman who was taking an Akita and that female Akita's Puppy think it was older than mine to the vet, they accidently bred in the back of the van on the way to the vet!!!!
MIA I did not know that Usually the breeder of the dog who sold you those dogs would be helping you with showing/breeding etc so I gather they came from a less than desirable breeder, so no you won't find good breeders lining up to help you. You need to find a reputable breeder who will start you off right which means maybe fixing the dogs you have an starting over.
Because the Owner of the Champion that Bred my female was of NO assist!!
Also, my female was 2 when she was bred, not 1 year old!! She will be 3 shortly...
I was extremely cautious whom I sold her puppies to, each was sold for $1000.00 as My Female has a very heavy championship background, I have every piece of paperwork on her and still have a relationship with the the people I bought her from...and she was Sired by a Champion!!
You know that movie called "8 Below", well a gentleman that owned one of those dogs in that movie wanted a puppy from my next litter if I had her bred with a champion again (which was my plan) and I was shocked!! I actually interviewed people, there were a couple of guys that I outright told I would not sell a puppy to, because I got the feeling they wanted to raise them to fight!!!!! NO!!!
I love the Breed also, and you are right, not everyone can handle them...I saw one in the dog show last weekend, was hoping for a win, but I noticed she had a very slight problem on the turn as to who was boss!!
I learned alot about training them about 8 years ago when I bought my first one, I bought every book I could get my hands on...and began training...

Thanks for all the advice and assist, think I will stick around for more :cloud9:

Hugs
Siren

LavenderRott
June 23rd, 2008, 09:28 PM
If you are serious about finding a good mentor and breeding - start here....

Wolverine Akita Club
Lenore Hirsch, Secy, 1014 Leroy, Ferndale MI 48220 Email docamc@concentric.net

From here you should be able to find a good breeder who can teach you about certifications and testing that should be done prior to breeding and also the importance of showing.

Your goal should be the continuation and improvement of the breed. This means breeding dogs that meet the breed standard and are as healthy as possible so as not to pass on crippling or fatal genetic diseases.

FYI - Akitas that show some dog aggression in the ring are not disqualified. It is considered part of the temperment of the breed - even more so then "pit bulls".

SirenOne
June 23rd, 2008, 10:22 PM
You should have seen him, that Akita was soooo beautiful and dignified I was just crossing my fingers for him, he did win a place I beleive, can't remember which though, downright deserved it tooo!!
I just may get ahold of her and that club and see what happens tooo!!

Thank You
Siren

erykah1310
June 24th, 2008, 03:57 PM
Because the Owner of the Champion that Bred my female was of NO assist!!
Also,


I was extremely cautious whom I sold her puppies to, each was sold for $1000.00 as My Female has a very heavy championship background, I have every piece of paperwork on her and still have a relationship with the the people I bought her from...and she was Sired by a Champion!!




I just cant help but feel you just arent getting this...
it doesnt matter how heavily championed your females lines are, there is still NO health testing on HER. At the very least you should be having her tested for Hips, elbows, heart, eyes and so on. PRIOR to breeding even one litter.

This Ch. Sire too, there are so many things that scream "skeazy" breeder there (his owners)
I know there is no way in Gods green acres that anyone with a CH Tibetan Mastiff would breed to my female UNTIL her health clearances are done and over with and with a decent score.
Someone with a good CH dog will NOT breed to an untested bitch unless they are cutting corners. Corner cutting is VERY dangerous in the dog breeding world, that is how you get your reputation, and a rep will follow you for years.

Another thing, very few breeders own both the stud and bitch... not because their dogs arent "beautiful" just that one line may not compliment another line.
(This really matters when you are breeding with a purpose besides money)

My main question for you now...
What are your plans for this potential pregnancy?
IF you are indeed serious about gaining more knowlege on the subject and becoming an ETHICAL breeder. What are your plans for these 2 dogs you have now? You are aware that no female regardless of "beauty" or CH's or anything should ethically be bred more than 3 times ( and 3 times is the absolute MAX, usually only done when that bitch has something extreme to offer the gene pool) So if indeed your female is pregnate with a litter at this time, you realize that "ethically" she should be spayed now.

Breeding is much harder than owning 2 dogs and letting them breed.

I ask again... what is your purpose for breeding these dogs? And just because someone wants them isnt a good reason.

http://www.heroswaggintrain.com/bybreed_pm_book.htm
Please read over this honestly and see if you fall into any of these categories... then figure out how you would like to fix it?
If you really need help, many of us will be there, but excuses just dont fly with many of us (not only here, but in the dog world as a whole)
Its not that its a bad thing you want to breed your dogs, heck I am thinking of breeding my TM one day ( but alot depends on health and how she fares out in the ring, along with temperment, structure and so many other things) DO I think she would make exceptional pups?? Damn right, but thats just not enough to have a good reputation.
I dont want pups coming back to me for the next 15 years out of a litter from health problems, and I dont want my name to be associated with health problems. And I definately do not ever want to see my breed in shelters...
Many breeders are extremely active in rescue as well... because they love the breed that much. How do you intend on helping Akitas in rescue? Especially since there are a few in Michigan right now?


I'll stop for a bit now

erykah1310
June 24th, 2008, 04:45 PM
http://www.phouka.com/puppy/bdr_ethics.html
10 Rules of Ethical Breeding

1. The only reason to be breeding purebred dogs is to preserve the best qualities of the breed. Breeding to supply any market is not a justification.

2. You need to do all of your breeding with the best interests of the breed in mind. Never your pocket book.

3. For this you need to be a serious student of the breed and devote years of your life to it. No "in one day, out the other".

4. As a beginner you need to engross yourself in the breed as much as possible and ideally find a suitable mentor.

5. In order to be a serious breeder, you must show and compete.

6. You need to keep track of all puppies you produce, whether pet or show, to know how your breeding program is working.

7. All pet dogs need to go on a spay/neuter contract.

8. All show puppies need to go on a contract that will not allow breeding unless the dog lives up to the quality intended and passes all health checks and certification necessary for that breed. If a prospective breeder does not want to do this, then I am sorry but they will have to mess with someone else's dogs not mine!!

Co-ownerships allow you a certain amount of control in this regard because they require your signature in order that puppies be registered. The latest news from the AKC is that there is a pending change to the rules that will not allow registration unless all papers are properly signed. If you have a difference with your co-owner it will need to be settled in court before the AKC will register litters or puppies. This is new and still pending, but a step in the right direction.

9. Every breeder owes to the breed and to themselves to be involved with rescue.

10. Every breeder should be prepared to take any dog back for whatever reason. If they do not have the space, then they need to be prepared to make other arrangements. But take back they must!

I agree with almost everything here (only exception is #5... this is an unfair generalization and when it comes to breeding stock dogs or the like this makes no sense)

LavenderRott
June 24th, 2008, 04:51 PM
http://www.phouka.com/puppy/bdr_ethics.html


I agree with almost everything here (only exception is #5... this is an unfair generalization and when it comes to breeding stock dogs or the like this makes no sense)

The reason for showing is to assure that the dog meets the breed standard. There is absolutely no reason why a stock dog can not or should not meet the breed standard. I know several rottweiler breeders who show and compete with COMPLETE dogs - dogs that meet the standard AND work as the breed was intended.

If the OP contacts the local breed club, I am sure that she will get some very, very good information. Let's not beat her up too badly. :D

erykah1310
June 24th, 2008, 05:00 PM
I'm not beating her up by any means, I hope it doesnt come across like that.

But I just dont fully agree with #5 completely... probably because how can you explain to for example farmers breeding Border Collies who are excellent herders that they need to put their dogs in the ring to prove that they are indeed good examples of the breed? ( I know things are far different in the BC world especially in Canada) But even BC's aside, Labs... a "bench" Lab would be relatively useless in field trials as their build alone is so far from what they were bred to do... Labs to me are starting to look like Rottweilers with different colors and tails, however a Lab that would excel in the field wouldn't hold a chance in the show ring.

I know this brings upon the "to show or not to show" debate and weather or not conformation is entirely beneficial to breeds, that is a whole other topic and one that will probably never have answers that suit both sides of the debate.
However that is my reasoning for not completely agreeing with #5.

satchelp
June 24th, 2008, 11:33 PM
Erykah1310, I don't necessarily agree with #5 either. If you have a breed that is rarely shown in CKC shows due to their being scarce, the judges have no clue about the conformation of that breed. In Europe, with my breed, although there are more over there, in some countries, it is more important that an expert in the breed does an individual evaluation against the standard on the potential breeding dog, as well as a temperament test. In fact most breeders of my breed are just hobby breeders and will keep only a few dogs, and most never show their dogs. If the breed is more common, then the evaluation of a number of judges while the dog attains its championship is an appropriate way of evaluating the dog as breeding stock. In my opinion, with the particular breed this thread is dealing with (Akita), showing the dog would be the best way of proving whether the dog should be bred as CKC judges are very familiar with the breed.

With regard to stock dogs etc., putting the dog in trials would be akin to showing in conformation.