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Cat declawing

JKC27
July 5th, 2004, 10:42 AM
Sorry if this is posted elsewhere, but I am new to this board.

Looking for input/advice on wether to declaw my kitten or not once he is old enough. He is getting *fixed*, and have tenatively booked to have him front declawed. I am starting to doubt wether or not to get the declawing done. My vet says it is up to me, but that is extremely painful for the cat.

He doesn't scratch, and is really friendly. He will scratch a little while playing, but uses his teeth more. :) I have a 5 yr old at home, but she is really good with the cat too (4 month old).

The biggest problem I have with his claws is him scaling my new screens on my windows (see other post regarding this).

I have this booked for mid August, so any input/advice would be super.

Thanks!

Luba
July 5th, 2004, 11:02 AM
Good question to ask before doing it!

DON'T!! It's cruel and very painful to the cats. Others with cat knowledge more extensive then my little bit of info can give you the graphic details of what they have to endure and go through.

It's not necessary, so pls dont' do it!

Spoiled
July 5th, 2004, 11:06 AM
I agree. If he doesn't bother much except the screens, then I'd say it isn't worth it.

Lucky Rescue
July 5th, 2004, 11:08 AM
First of all, welcome to the board!!:)

Many people think that declawing cats is merely like cutting our nails. It is not. Other people will also tell you that cats come through this surgery just fine. Some do, but others have infection, complications and great pain. Sometimes a deformed nail regrows, and must be surgically removed again. Some cats will take to biting, some will stop using the litterbox. Most probably don't, but this is a chance you take.

This is a mutilation that is done ONLY for human convenience, has NO benefit to the cat, and as such, I simply cannot condone it, and our rescue expressly forbids it for our adopted cats.

As for climbing the screen, this is something kittens do and he should outgrow it as it would be very uncomfortable for an adult cat to be hanging by his nails from a screen.

Learn to clip his nails. I clip my cats' nails regularly and keep them short.

Get a scratch post and some catnip. Make sure the scratchpost is VERY solid and doesn't move when your cat uses it. Rub some catnip on the post and dangle a toy in front of it to encourage him to stand and scratch.

Never play with your kitten with your hands, and don't allow your child to either. Always use a toy to play with cats, so they never think it's o.k. to grab and scratch hands.

Here is an article on declawing.

Declawing (http://maxshouse.com/Truth%20About%20Declawing.htm)

glasslass
July 5th, 2004, 12:22 PM
Now is a perfect time to start clipping his nails. He'll grow up used to it and it will be easy. When my cat scratches something, she does it right in front of me and I know it's her way of telling me she needs me to do it. She sits very calmly in my lap and watches while I do it. :p

JKC27
July 5th, 2004, 12:29 PM
Thank you to everyone for your input and advice. I read the article LuckyRescue linked me to and I was very shocked. I have trimmed his claws twice, and while it isn't Tucker's favourite activity, he doesn't mind. Plus his vet trims him too. I usually have to catch him when he is dozey. ;)

I priced out and looked at some cat houses (I think they are called) for climbing and scratching and such. Some are rather expensive, but others are reasonable. I think I could probably make something really cool for my cat, if not I'll buy one. He has outgrown his scratching post I made for him when I first got him.

Thank you all again. I am glad I found this site!

glasslass
July 5th, 2004, 01:18 PM
We built this cathouse using scrap plywood and carpet remnants which we bought for about $20 (U.S.). You can't see it, but there's another round hole on the top just to the right of Puss-Puss' tail.

jenjen
July 5th, 2004, 03:45 PM
Please don't have the little guy declawed. As LR said it is very painful for them and if the blinds are the only thing your worried about its not worth it. One of my cats is a year old now and not once has she ever scratched me. We do keep her claws short and if you start at a young age they come to expect it. She doesn't mind having her feet handled at all. I don't let my cats out but its a little comforting to know that if she did get out and she needed to climb something to get away whether it be from a dog or something she would still be able too. Hope all these posts made it easier to make you decision.GOOD LUCK with the litte guy

chico2
July 5th, 2004, 03:58 PM
I agree with everything that has been said about declawing it's nothing but mutilation and not fair to the cat.
A cat-tree is simple to make,we used a 4x4 piece of lumber we already had,attached 3 shelves covered in left-over carpeting and sisal-rope.
I have 3 cats all with claws,2 cats we trim ourselves,my feisty tabby gets trimmed by the vet.
Here's the cat-tree.

JKC27
July 6th, 2004, 07:23 AM
I have come to the conclusion that Tucker will not be declawed.

I have a question to those who've posted their pics of their cat perches. How do you attach the carpeting and sisal rope? Is it a problem to use staples, or nails, or certain types of glue?

I have priced them out at PetSmart and Pet Valu, as well as other Windsor pet stores. I think I will end up making my own.

Thanks for all the input on the declawing issue.

chico2
July 6th, 2004, 07:49 AM
The rope,we used hot-glue and a nail at the beginning and end.
I was a little worried about staples,but we used longer ones for the carpeting and so far no misshaps.To keep the shelves up,we used a couple of left-over shelf-brackets we had.Good Luck!!

Lucky Rescue
July 6th, 2004, 08:05 AM
chico, that cat tree is magnificent!!:)

JKC27 - you can make a very simple and good scratch post by using sisal, like on chico's pic, and wrapping it very tighly around a piece of thin plywood - about 5 inches wide and 3 feet tall. Then you can bolt it into the wall, and make another to put elsewhere. Cats really love to scratch this stuff!

And for the nail clipping, don't attempt this in the middle of your cat's play session. Wait until he is deeply asleep and gently start with one paw. If he objects, leave the rest until another day! I clip my cats' nails when they are curled up on my lap.

chico2
July 6th, 2004, 08:21 AM
Thank's Lucky! Hubby will be proud :D
The cats use the tree all the time,even sleep on it...the sisal-rope is the best to use,with carpeting on the perches.
I agree with clipping nails when they are very calm,if they struggle don't attempt to trim nails,accidents can happen.
I usually hold and cuddle the cat,while hubby trims.Vinnie is no problem,we started on him right from baby-hood...my cats also have the advantage of being outside with me and scratch up against real trees,they are never outside alone.

glasslass
July 6th, 2004, 09:16 AM
We used hot glue also. To reinforce the edges, you'll notice there are narrow pieces of carpet wrapped wood strips that are attached with more hot glue and wood screws. Only the front legs are carpeted. You can't see them but the back legs are regular 2x4s that fit closer to the wall and are covered with wallpaper to match the wall. :)

Shae
July 8th, 2004, 02:46 AM
TO DECLAW or NOT to DECLAW, THAT IS THE QUESTION.........In my opinion,, it's not that difficult to answer.


Well, 1st I'd like to express that I am against declawing, even though it doesn't interfere will normal daily activities,in MOST cases, and I'll tell you why.
Cats NEED to scratch. It's natural feline behavior, not to mention exercises back,shoulder and leg muscles and even sheds the dead outer layer of skin on the claws. It's also a way of communication and a way to defend themselves should that occassion arise. Can prevent them to becomming prey to other creatures as dogs,raccoons,coyotes, other cats and even humans! All this and I haven't even mentioned the pain it causes them.
Ok, aside from that, it can be extremely frustrating when your new curtains or sofa is being shredded by your little friend.
Another term for declawing is,"onychectomy" and as I mentioned, it is a painful procedure and on normal situations usually takes a week to 10 days for recovery during which time antibiotics should be given as well as pain reliever. Some vets bandage up the feet while others choose not to. From experience, the cats waking from anesthesia are not only in distress/pain from surgery but also don't like these huge padded bandages on their feet and most will begin to shake their legs and bite in attempt to free their paws from these bandages which usually results in what I would class as a small blood bath. I walked in many times to find the felines covered in their blood the walls of the kennels full of blood....a major mess.After the bandages are off the cats I suspect are not only in pain ( which is obvious) but confused. Often they will start licking and chewing at feet.
many veterinarians will usually suggest removing only the claws on the front feet, however in this day and age, there are a few vets who now refuse to declaw at all. Contrary to what I find most people believe, declawing is not just a basic removal of the nails only. truth be known, declawing actually consists of amputation of the end toe joint.
So, what to do????
Well, you could start off by one or 2 or more scratching posts in your home near the furniture that your cats enjoys to scratch on. Spray cat repellant if you need to onto the sofa itself to deter them onto their post(or unpleasant smelling odor, vinegar or perfume can work too) and an idea, would be sprinkle a small amt of catnip onto the post. Make sure the post is strong and sturdy and should be failry tall for your cat. You can show your cat how to scratch at the post if he appears uninterested or confused by this new contraption by simply extending his/her claws onto the post to scratch. And always praise him or her when they use it!
Artificial nails are also available from your local vet now too. They are like little plastic caps that need replacing as they break or fall off. They are softer and do little if any damage at all.***********PLEASE NOTE.......IF YOU CHOOSE THIS OPTION, YOUR CAT SHOULD REMAIN INDOORS AT ALL TIMES AS HE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO PROTECT HIMSELF.*********
A simple alternative and one I rec. is a pedicure. We would trim nails everyday at the hospital which can be very effective as it's the hook of the nails that usually create the damage....these are snipped off during the pedicure. Doing this often every week or 2 will not only keep the nails short but your cat will also get used to this procedure and be quite comfortable having it done on a regular basis.. Again, rewards for him can actually make him look forward to the task!
Declawed cats NEED to be kept INDOORS!!! It is not safe for them anymore outside and if the choice is made to declaw, YOU are responsible for protecting him/her. Try other methods before opting to declaw.
Have a great evening!

JKC27
July 8th, 2004, 07:55 AM
I have made to decision to NOT declaw Tucker. I really have no problem trimming his claws when needed. Although he likes to play with the clippers, so I have to get him when he is dozy.

Once he is older and mellows out it will be easier also.

chico2
July 8th, 2004, 08:55 AM
Great first post Shae and you have a little beauty,did he come with the tree? :D :D :D Welcome to the Forum :p

glasslass
July 8th, 2004, 09:48 AM
Welcome Shae! Good post and love the Xmas Kitty! Can't resist - just have to show off my Xmas Puss-Puss! :D

Princesss04
July 8th, 2004, 09:51 AM
I am so glad that you decided not to have your baby declawed. You sound like a very good pet owner. Welcome! :D

heidiho
July 8th, 2004, 10:01 AM
So what would you say is more effective tape on couches or spray??

JKC27
July 8th, 2004, 11:17 AM
Thanks Princess. :) Tucker is my little buddy. He sleeps on my bed at night with his little teddy bear, which I think is pretty funny, although the wife jokes that he is kind of fruity. ;)

I was also wondering about the tape vs. spray issue, since it has been brought up. :)

buriedinfur
July 8th, 2004, 11:18 AM
Another good spray to keep your kitties from chewing (and once they get a taste of it they generally will not go near something sprayed with it) is Variton spray, it is a bandage protectant that you can purchase through your vet. Works lovely on plants too. Mind you it is very bitter and cats froth a lot of saliva if they have something bitter in thier mouth so do not become alarmed if that happens, it will not harm them, it just tastes disgusting. I have used it in areas that my cats would scratch and now they leave it alone (they only make the mistake once and that is enough for them). As well I have a couple of "natural wood" scratch posts - just find a nice thick beach log with the bark worn off and cut a chunk of it out and nail it on a base and voila! My cats LOVE it and the best thing is it doesn't look worn quickly (just a bit of wood shavings at the base to vaccum up)

Shae
July 8th, 2004, 12:03 PM
So what would you say is more effective tape on couches or spray??
Hi and thanks for the welcome. Wow, this place has a TON of members.
It depends on the cat. Of course with spray, they may still go for it and be successful if they don't concentrate on the odor or don't bother sniffing at it. The tape seems to work. I recall doing that to my parents sofa and her cat attempted to stretch out at claw at it. Well, she "slid" down the front of it. She tried again, same thing. She sat there and just stared at the couch looking so perplexed, but she's smart as a whip....rather than concentrating on scratching the furniture..........here was a new game! Playing, "Get the tape off the couch" It was actually very cute. She had a blast! But all on all it works as long as you dont mind having tape on your furniture. Someone here mentioned wood posts? They do enjoy that usually but we've seen cats come into the clinic with chunks in their feet....splinters. Not often mind you , but it's happened. So, be careful with that. Also,somebody mentioned Variton Spray. Yes, I don't know why I didn't mention that. We use it on splints and badages to discourage licking. It works on most but some cats are VERY determined It will create frothing and drooling etc. I always feel guilty about using it when the animal ends up getting a mouthful. I prefer products with a bad odour that deter so the might sense it before licking.
But, what it comes down to, is that declawing is an extremely painful recovery/procedure. And god forbid your kitty ever gets out or in a bad situation, they'd be prey b/c of a choice you made. Trimming nails is easy. You can do it yourself. Buy a good pair of cat trimmers. Have someone hold your cat and have their leg extended for you. You take the paw and press gently to extend their nails. Now, just snip off the rounded hooks. You just have to be careful not to hit the quicks. Which on cats are usually far back. So, as long as you just take the hook, you're safe. OR, the vet will do it for you on a regular basis, OR go into your vet and request they "show" you how. We'd do that often for clients. Well, thanks for all the replies. I'm heading back to the Animal Rights cafe now. I had to keep scrolling up to see make sure I ws posting in the right one. The set up is almost exactly the same! Thanks again for the welcome ....Go hug your cats!!!!!!!

chico2
July 8th, 2004, 03:40 PM
Shae,you are wonderful,please come back and see us :D
Glasslass your black/white kitty is just adorable,his fur is just gorgeous,it looks like he has a black furcoat on... :)

Shae
July 9th, 2004, 03:18 AM
Thanks Chico....I will :o

3mzo05
July 21st, 2004, 05:23 PM
I don't understand how people can say that declawing is mutilation/inhumane etc etc. and then turn around and promote neutering and spaying. When a cat is "fixed", that can also be considered mutilation. It is a surgery done to prevent unwanted kittens, spraying, among other problems. This is also for human convience! Declawing is no different. As long as you have a good vet that doesn't butcher the cat's paws, there is no issue. Both of my cats are declawed and both recovered immediately. In fact, I saw neither of them experience any pain, even when their paws were touched. They were both playing, scratching at things...basically, they were fine. The same went for their neutering. Also, this alternative solution, with capping the nails with plastic sounds much worse. The cat would then think they had claws and attempt to jump up on things using their claws, only to slide down. My cats are now 3 and 5 years old and, having been declawed as a kitten, have never fallen/hurt themselves due to not having claws. So, I ask you, if neutering is fine, why isn't declawing? Both are for human convience, so people could argue that having a cat as a pet at all is inhumane and cruel! It simply isn't. Declawing and neutering are both your choice.

Freyja
July 21st, 2004, 05:28 PM
http://www.vrbspca.bc.ca/spayneuter.html

Lucky Rescue
July 21st, 2004, 05:37 PM
I don't understand how people can say that declawing is mutilation/inhumane etc etc. and then turn around and promote neutering and spaying. When a cat is "fixed", that can also be considered mutilation. It is a surgery done to prevent unwanted kittens, spraying, among other problems. This is also for human convience!

Let me explain. Spaying and neutering not only prevents mammary cancer, testicular cancer, male cats wandering and getting in fights, pyometra and false pregnancies, it prevents UNWANTED LITTERS. It would prevent suffering of countless unwanted animals.

Cats and dogs are extremely overpopulated and dying in record numbers in shelters, being dumped on roads and overloading all rescues. Right now, I know of 32 kittens needing homes. They are sitting in cages in vet's offices, and THEY are the lucky ones. The others are born outside and live and die with no one ever knowing. Spaying and neutering would have prevented this.

Right now, there are 100,000 homeless dogs and many more homeless cats listed on Petfinder. These are the direct result of people who are too irresponsible to s/n their pets.

This is what spaying and neutering is for.

It is NOT for convenience. Amputating the ends of a cat's toes so it can't scratch furniture is for convenience. Do you see the difference?

3mzo05
July 21st, 2004, 05:40 PM
I understand all the benefits of neutering. Both my cats are also neutered. Almost all of the benefits listed are for human convience once again:

Prevents pregnancy
Prevents false pregnancy
Prevents the complications of pregnancy and delivery
Eliminates heat cycles and stops the bloody discharge
Ends crying, nervous pacing, and frantic efforts to get out and find a mate
Reduces the urge to roam, thus reducing the risk of losing a pet, infectious diseases, fights, injury, trapping, cruelty, poisoning, or death in traffic
Prevents visits from unwelcome males attracted to the scent of a female in heat
Eliminates or reduces the incidence of disease, infection, and cancer of the reproductive system
Reduces stress, which can lead to increased susceptibility to disease

The last two seem sort of ridiculous to me. For the disease and cancer part, that means that maybe human beings should get spayed and neutered too. Stress?! Stress because they want a mate, right? So then why keep them as a pet? It is just for our convience, period. I am not against that, we want our kitties to be happy and we want to be happy with our kitties. Still, no different than declawing.

Lucky Rescue
July 21st, 2004, 05:43 PM
You don't seem to be reading what you are writing!
Reduces the urge to roam, thus reducing the risk of losing a pet, infectious diseases, fights, injury, trapping, cruelty, poisoning, or death in traffic

Is preventing these horrible things from happening to your pets for convenience?

Spaying and neutering has many benefits for the ANIMAL.

Declawing has absolutely NO benefit for the cat.

3mzo05
July 21st, 2004, 05:47 PM
It is NOT for convenience. Amputating the ends of a cat's toes so it can't scratch furniture is for convenience. Do you see the difference?

It is not just for scratching furniture, that is ridiculous. If you have another animal, like a dog or another cat and they were to get into a fight, they could be seriously injured. Or even a small child! And I'm not talking about an aggressive cat either, I'm talking about an accident. That is why, it has nothing to do with furniture.

I agree about neutering, but as a whole, for an indoor cat, how would they create unwanted litters? Yet so many indoor cats are spayed/neutered. I don't see a difference.

3mzo05
July 21st, 2004, 05:50 PM
Reducing the urge to roam is so that you don't lose your kitty. That is for your convience and yes, for the convience of the cat itself so that is not injured or killed. Declawing is to protect against injury as well. But yes, it also prevents them from scratching furniture, hence the human convience part. Same thing.

Lucky Rescue
July 21st, 2004, 05:56 PM
It is not just for scratching furniture, that is ridiculous. If you have another animal, like a dog or another cat and they were to get into a fight, they could be seriously injured. Or even a small child! And I'm not talking about an aggressive cat either, I'm talking about an accident. That is why, it has nothing to do with furniture.

I agree about neutering, but as a whole, for an indoor cat, how would they create unwanted litters? Yet so many indoor cats are spayed/neutered. I don't see a difference.

In my experience, most people want cats declawed because of the furniture. Of all the cats we have adopted out, and all the people who inquired about declawing, 99% wanted it to convenience themselves. The other 1% wanted a defenseless cat to be a toy for a dog. Not very good reasons for mutiliation.

Cats who are declawed are apt to bite instead. Cat bites can be extremely dangerous and cause massive infection, which often requires hospitilization. Did you know that?

As for indoor cats being spayed and neutered, just read this board and see how many "responsible" owners of INDOOR cats now have pregnant cats. These people are directly contributing to the slaughter in the shelters by refusing to be responsible and make sure their cats are not contributing to the overpopulation.

Cats do will go to great lengths to get out. Females in heat and toms looking for a mate are very creative at finding ways to get out. I just understand why anyone would take that chance.

Repeated heats without breeding are very detrimental to female cats' health.

How long have you owned cats?

And again, what health benefit to the CAT is there in declawing?

I have had cats for over 30 years and never yet declawed one of them.

3mzo05
July 21st, 2004, 06:10 PM
In my experience, most people want cats declawed because of the furniture. Of all the cats we have adopted out, and all the people who inquired about declawing, 99% wanted it to convenience themselves. The other 1% wanted a defenseless cat to be a toy for a dog. Not very good reasons for mutiliation..

Okay, I have already stated my reasons for declawing. I fall under neither category for your statistics. So I don't see how they are relevant. I am sure there are other responsible owners like me, that declaw their cats. In fact, I know many, including my vet.


How long have you owned cats?


I take this as you implying that I am not as experienced with cats as you are. I have had enough cats, with claws and without to have an educated opinion.


And again, what health benefit to the CAT is there in declawing?


Again, it prevents injuries. I understand that you must have dealt with many irresponsible owners, but I am not one of them. I am simply stating that is an owner's choice whether or not to declaw. It is not as inhumane and cruel as so many people make it out to be. In my experience with my cats and with many, many others, there has been no negative effects.

Lucky Rescue
July 21st, 2004, 06:41 PM
You want to "declaw" your cats, fine. But to use your words, "Don't insult me" by trying to say it's done for safety reasons, or that it's the same as spay/neuter.

I cannot count the cats that passed through my home, including adult feral cats, and nary a one declawed (by me) and no injuries either to each other or to me.

Spay/neuter = many health benefits for animal. Eliminates homeless cats. Reduces number of cats dying, being dumped and being killed.

"Declawing" = NO benefits for animal.

I'm done.

chico2
July 21st, 2004, 07:03 PM
3mzoo5.You cannot be serious,comparing sawing off the tip of paws,bones and claws to neutering/spaying :eek: There is absolutely no comparison!!
My vet as a matter of fact will not declaw a kitten,she will refere you to someone else,that is how strongly she feels about it.
There is a beautiful white cat sitting waiting to be adopted in her office and this poor cat was trying to reach me with his soft paws,I have never before touch a cats paws that were declawed and I felt an incredible sorrow for this poor mutilated cat.A cat NEEDS his claws there is no ifs or buts about it!!
An aquarium with fish would be a better pet for anyone having the need to deform a cat.

glasslass
July 21st, 2004, 07:41 PM
Good site Freyja! Keep that web address handy as you'll constantly want to post it the longer you're on this board. :rolleyes:

:eek: How can anyone lump mutilation in the same argument as spaying and neutering! :confused: What about the thousands of deaths every day of all those unwanted kittens/puppies and cats/dogs that there just aren't enough homes for? :confused: I think there's more at stake than convenience! :mad:

3mzo05
July 21st, 2004, 07:49 PM
Then, I guess I just don't understand how my cats can be so happy and healthy when they have been "mutilated" and treated inhumanely. I also don't understand how claws would be considered more important than reproductive organs. Like I said before, they suffered no negative effects from being declawed, at all. Plus, I don't have to worry about having a child or my neighbour's Jack Russell play with my kitties. Perhaps because I have seen many, many cats declawed and be just as happy and healthy as a cat with claws I don't see the surgery as "inhumane mutilation".

3mzo05
July 21st, 2004, 07:52 PM
Good site Freyja! Keep that web address handy as you'll constantly want to post it the longer you're on this board. :rolleyes:

:eek: How can anyone lump mutilation in the same argument as spaying and neutering! :confused: What about the thousands of deaths every day of all those unwanted kittens/puppies and cats/dogs that there just aren't enough homes for? :confused: I think there's more at stake than convenience! :mad:

I think there is a misunderstanding of the comparison I was trying to make. I understand the benefits of spaying and neutering, that is why my cats are neutered. My point was, it is all the same thing. It is still removing something from a cat for their benefit and for your benefit.

Sneaky2006
July 21st, 2004, 08:20 PM
If declawing a cat meant the cat couldn't reproduce, I bet there'd be a whole hell of a lot of cats, with huge claws!!

glasslass
July 21st, 2004, 08:33 PM
I clip my cat's claws when she lets me know she needs it. A little inconvenient, but easy. No problems with furniture or scratching, but I know she can still climb and defend herself. She takes it in stride, even watching with interest when I do it.

glasslass
July 21st, 2004, 08:35 PM
Hubby doesn't consider himself mutilated because he can't reproduce (Big "V"). Didn't need to do more, he stays in his own house and yard! :p Cats wouldn't!

chico2
July 21st, 2004, 09:54 PM
There is just no argument for declawing,cats are expert at hiding pain and discomfort,in later years,your cats will more than likely run into trouble.
A friend of mine in Florida inherited a 12yr old cat,declawed and in very much discomfort,has difficulty walking as she cannot get a good grip.
She is a designer-cat in every sense of the word and now as she's getting older she's paying the price for her original owners total selfishness.
Sure,not all end up like her,many get out cannot defend themselves or climb a tree,end up getting killed or maimed.There are thousands of reasons not to willfully hurt a cat.

Shae
July 21st, 2004, 11:52 PM
There is absolutely NO COMAPARISON between spaying/neutering vs. delclawing. NONE. I worked in the aimal hospital for 15-16 years. I know how they do it and the recovery process. Indoor cats SHOULD be neutered also, reason number one is for your sake, ever smell an un-neutered cat's urine/spraying? Number 2....it can add duration to your cats life span among other health benefits.
Declawing, as I stated in a previous post in this thread, can recover fine with minimal no effects later on. I bet you didn't see your cat waking up from surgery or that evening even. If your cat gets outside, it is prey to other animals....and who will be to blame?
A lot of veterinarians are now refusing to declaw. There are humane alternatives now. In many European countries it is illegal. to declaw a cat.
It IS NOT just the TOENAIL being removed, it's the amputation of the actual TOE JOINTS! Remember too, during recovery, your cat HAS to walk on it's feet still. It hurts like hell for us just to cut our nails too short.....imagine how that cat feels. If your cats recovered well, I am pleased. BUT there are those who don't. Here is a sample list of countries where it is deemed illegal or inhumane to declaw.
Brazil
Australia
New Zealand
Yugoslavia
Japan
Austria
Switzerland
Norway
Sweden
Netherlands
Northern Ireland
Ireland
Denmark
Finland
Slovenia
Portugal
Belgium
England
Scotland
Wales
Italy
France
Germany
I ended up refusing to assist in declaw and taildocking. I took my job very seriously, it takes a lot for me to refuse to fulfill a duty / task at hand.

Shae
July 21st, 2004, 11:56 PM
Sorry if I appeared rude, but it makes me nuts to hear people tell me it's ok. I've seen some things working there that I hope never to witness again ever. I particiapted in duties that make me feel ashamed now. Declawing should be deemed illegal worldwide as far as I'm concerned.

Jackie467
July 22nd, 2004, 12:16 AM
Now i by no means think declawing is appropriate. I have a cat that is not declawed and i would never consider declawing her. I wanted to point out that someone said that the cat would more likely bite then, and thats worst. that is worst but my cat would chose to bit over claw any day. I'v been bitten pretty bad once by her on the way to the vet because she hates car rides and i made the mistake of trying to cox her out of the carrier when we got to the office instead of letting the vet do it.(she would have got bitten too but had gloves on because she was aware of the fact that my cat doesn't care for anyone but me to pick her up and had bitten her before.) I also wanted to say that my grandmother had found a cat that was declawed. his name was kitter. at first we just ignored him thinking he was a naboirs cat and would go home. but he stuck around and sort of became her cat, but he always lived outside. my grandmother is blind and had an eye seeing dog that the cat didn't get along with so keeping him inside wasn't an option. he never had any trouble at all living outside with out his front claws. (he still had his back). I don't know if that was just rare or what cuz as i said before i'v never had a declawed cat. when he passed away the vet estemated him to be over 18 years old. he never had any problems what so ever without his claws. i don't personaly belive in declawing but i just wanted to let people know that some cats can do well without their claws.

Shae
July 22nd, 2004, 12:28 AM
Thats been pointed out, by me too, BUT, it's so infuriating. I don't even think ppl NEED to know that some do well! Need I point out yet again, what these cats go through? How about, if you plan on getting a cat declawed, ask your vet to let you watch the surgery and HOW they do it.Bet they won't allow it. And if they do, can I bet you'll be extremely distraught....at least you will if you love your pet. Watch your cat wake up in pain and try to walk. Watch her/him shake their feet trying to figure out why so painful and whats wrong as blood splatters on the kennel walls. Then tell me, but some cats eventually do ok. I KNOW they eventually do ok. It doesn't make it humane or right. Period. Some roosters survive through cockfighting, yet it doesn't make it right. Some people don't die from using drugs, doesn't make it ok to take them.This is a touchy subject for me b/c I KNOW what it entails. The one veterinarian I worked with also refused to perform them. The other 3 had to do it. I was willing to lose my position as veterinary surgical assistant over it! Sure, tell people about the success stories but make damn sure you follow up with all the ones that were botched and the pain the successes went through for what? Your new sofa?

Shae
July 22nd, 2004, 12:48 AM
amby.com
Declawing! What You Need To Know

What does it mean when a cat is declawed? How is it done? Examine these drawings. The cat's claw is not a toenail at the end of the toe as in other animals. It is movable digit attached to muscle as a finger might be. Note the strong ligaments and tendons which give power to extend and retract the claws. This is unique in cats. Without this your cat would not be able to properly grasp, hold or establish footing for proper walking, running, springing, climbing or stretching. Think of the cat as having 10 toes on each foot. Declawing is akin to cutting off half their toes. When the end digit, including the claw is removed, the sensory and motor nerves are cut, damaged and destroyed. They do not repair themselves or grow back for many months. Following the surgery there is a wooden lack of feeling, then a tingling sensation during the long convalescence while the cat must walk on the stub end of the second digit. Remember that during all this time the cat may not "rest" his feet as we would after a similar operation but must continue to scratch in his litter box, walk and attempt to jump as usual regardless of his pain.
Since cats have keener senses than humans, they suffer even more than humans. Many pain killing drugs, including aspirin, do not agree with cats and can cause illness or even death. Anyone who has had surgery will appreciate the problem that can be created by the inability to take pain-relieving medication. It is also possible for the claws to grow back, but often not in the normal manner, instead they may grow through the top or bottom of the paw, creating a bloody, painful sore. An Atlanta news station recently had a story of a declawing followed by infection so severe that the cat's foot had to be amputated.

The cat's body is especially well designed. The skeleton is better jointed and more elastic than most other animals and the muscles governing the lithe body are highly developed. This gives the cat great climbing power. The sharp claws can be whipped out for business or tucked neatly away. The elastic tendon holds the claw in its own sheath. The claw is flat on each side so it will slide in and out better. When the cat pulls his claw down with the use of the big tendon that lies along the under part of the toe, the ligament stretches like a fresh rubber band. It is hooked on the end for hanging on.

Cats like to keep their claws sharp and clean (and remove the outer sheath of the nail) by working on the scratching post you provide. Equipping your cat with the proper scratching post and taking the time to train him to use it will help preserve your furniture and carpets. Scratching posts made of soft carpeting teach your cat that soft fabrics, i.e. your sofa and rugs, are proper for scratching. A better idea are posts made of sisal rope or carpet turned inside out. This encourages your cat to scratch on hard, coarse surfaces. Training your cat to use this post takes some effort on your part. If you see him attempting to scratch on furniture or carpet, clap your hands sharply, say no! then pick him up gently and place him on the sisal post. (If stronger measures are needed, you might also want to keep a squirt bottle with plain water handy.) If your cat seems to prefer a particular area, try covering it with aluminum foil for a while. Catnip-treated cardboard scratchers, best used lying flat, are also effective. Most cats are pretty smart and after a short time, and much praise, will get the idea. It is also essential to properly clip your cat's claws with a well-made cat claw scissors. The sharp hook must be clipped off without injuring the pink quick. Cutting into the quick will hurt the cat and you will have a difficult time holding him quiet the next time.

Besides the physical mutilation, consider what declawing may do to the cat's emotions, the personality changes that may occur. Knowing he has not the means to defend himself, some cats follow the precept of the best defense is a good offense, and will bite at the least provocation (and it may truly be the least provocation.) Others become depressed and lose the loving personality that made you choose him to start with.

"The Learning Channel" had a series of documentaries about cats in January of 1993 and again in July 1995 and several of their comments were appropriate to this flyer. In one segment a cat owner spoke to a pet psychologist about her biting cat. It was no surprise to me when she admitted that the cat was declawed. Another segment showed a kitten being declawed. The commentator said that declawing was an American procedure and, in fact, most veterinarians in other countries refuse to do the operation.

I have recently heard about another nasty piece of business that some veterinarians are advocating as an "alternative" to Declawing; Tendonectomy--the cutting of the tendons themselves to prevent the claws from being extended. This is a bad, if not worse, than declawing itself. The claws continue to grow and constant maintenance of trimming must be done for the rest of the cat's life. (The same trimming procedure that if done anyway will keep your cat's intact claws shortened, blunted and less damaging to your furniture.) Failure to trim claws in this situation will result in additional veterinary attention throughout the cat's life as the claws will grow around and into the paw pad of the foot. You can imagine how much daily pain a cat would have to go through in this condition.

If you really love your cat, you will want him to lead a long, happy life, giving and receiving love and affection. If you really love him, and care about him, don't declaw him.

Cactus Flower
July 22nd, 2004, 01:04 AM
It is not just for scratching furniture, that is ridiculous. If you have another animal, like a dog or another cat and they were to get into a fight, they could be seriously injured. Or even a small child! And I'm not talking about an aggressive cat either, I'm talking about an accident.

Speaking of ridiculous....

Just wondering if you have had your dog declawed as well?
And while you're at it, you of course will want to have all of your pets' teeth removed. They can be just as dangerous as claws (or moreso). Because, like you said, fights and "accidents" will happen. Teeth have been known to cause a LOT of "serious injury".

Perhaps you'd be interested in having a pet turtle? Oops, no, they have claws.
A fish? Ah, but those scales can be abrasive, and they are very hard to de-scale.
A pet rock? Nope, those can fall off a shelf and hit someone's head....

chico2
July 22nd, 2004, 08:07 AM
Shae,thank you very much :D and Lucky and anyone else,nothing gets me as riled up as the question of declawing.
Shae,I know of it being illegal in many modern western countries,we here in Canada have a lot to learn about animal-cruelty laws and finally update,the 100 yr old laws we currently have.

Freyja
July 22nd, 2004, 08:40 AM
When I signed the adoption contract for Lindy there was a clause that stated:
"The Adopter acknowledges and agrees tht the Adopted Animal: ...will not be subjuscted to any cosmetic surger, including, abut not limited to, ear cropping and tail dockin; will not be subjected to declawing or debarking..."

TalonsMa
July 22nd, 2004, 11:22 AM
Hi :) When we got Talon we had taken him to the vet for his pre-fixin check up and shots! While there I spoke to the vet about declawing since we were considering it. He gave us alot of information on it, said he prefers not to do them, but would if we wanted it done. He listed all the pros and cons (not that there were any pro's really) and the dangers etc. My husband thought about it for a couple weeks and decided we couldn't go through with that! I'm so glad we didn't. The vet also at that time showed us how to trim his nails correctly, and we have been trimming both our kitty's nails frequently - around once every two weeks. They don't mind at all, and know to run to the cupboard for a treat after we're done :D We also have scratching posts all over the house, and they hardly ever scratch on the furniture, although once in awhile when Talon gets excited he sometimes forgets and runs up to the couch like he is going to, but a firm "Talon" and he will run to his poct. We also a spray, which really stinks, I can't remember the name of it. But I think I might check into that varitol (sp).

Thanks! :)

Michel
August 4th, 2004, 10:12 AM
Good question to ask before doing it!

DON'T!! It's cruel and very painful to the cats. Others with cat knowledge more extensive then my little bit of info can give you the graphic details of what they have to endure and go through.

It's not necessary, so pls dont' do it!


Painful? oh please! As if spaying isn't a little tender? Every cat I've ever owned went in for the spay/declaw at the same time.. Spaying slowed the girls down for about a day, more than long enough for the paws to cool down. Every one of them was back to running and jumping around the house in 24 hours. Imagine how they preferred not being scolded or squirted with the water gun for climbing the furnature. Perhaps my girls recovered so quick because they were confined to one room with the little box (impeccibly clean) only a few steps away.

If you want to declaw, do it. Just remember it means forever indoors or on a harness. Only front claws are done so cats can still climb trees etc and fight quite well with rear claws.

I'd associate claw removal as not unlike a human having a non-impacted wisdom tooth extracted. Ya it feels a little odd and a little tender for a day or two but you get over it.

Shae
August 4th, 2004, 10:34 AM
I wasn't even going to respond to your very uneducated remarks. However, I feel it is in the utmost best interest in vats for their owners to understand and NOT to listen to people as yourself. I have been a veterinary surgical assistant for approx 16 years. I finally refused to partake in declwing. What does that tell you? Read my above posts please. If someone came along and wanted to amputate your toes, would that be humane and fine with you? It might be difficult to balance for awhile but the pain should subside in oh, a few days to a couple months....so you wouldn't mind would you?
You say your cat was running around and on and off furniture in 24 hours?! Really now? 1st, I think that's load of BS, but then again, I stated that, yes, indeed some recover faster than others.......BUT, what does this say about you as a pet owner? You are required to limit your pets activity for 5-10 days AT LEAST! For their own safety!! Ie: suture lines may open or swell, then in which casew would become abscessed from licking and / or jumping/activity., etc al. Which very well could require a whole new surgical process to put your feline companion through. Declawing is not for their own good........it's something YOU simply choose to put them through for your own selfish reasons. Spaying and neutering howver, is for THEM and their wellbeing. As for you spaying and declawing at the same time, I'm a betting woman, you did that b/c you save on the anaesthetic cost when you spay and declaw in the one visit rather than 2 ! !
Use you head. Sorry if I appear rude, but people as yourself drive me nuts. Educate yourself. READ the above with the diagram. Ask to witness the actual surgery. Ask yourself why it is being deemed illegal to perform this surgical procedure in many countries (stated abover in earlier posts also)

sammiec
August 4th, 2004, 10:42 AM
I don't think you're read this entire thread before your hasty response...

Painful? oh please! As if spaying isn't a little tender?
yes, that's not argued. Spaying is painful BUT unlike declawing it prevents cancer and other alments in your pets. There is NO health benefit of declawing, just selfish humans concerned about themselves.

If you want to declaw, do it. Just remember it means forever indoors or on a harness. Only front claws are done so cats can still climb trees etc and fight quite well with rear claws. I don't know about you, but I think a cat could climb a tree MUCH easier with BOTH sets of claws.. can't grip too well with no claws on the front...

I'd associate claw removal as not unlike a human having a non-impacted wisdom tooth extracted. Ya it feels a little odd and a little tender for a day or two but you get over it.

Non impacted wisdom teeth extraction is done WITH CONSENT for the human, maybe your cats are different, but mine has never asked me once to escentially, rip out his fingernails....and it feels a little odd and tender, but you don't have to walk on them do you??.. what about infections... that takes a LITTLE longer to heal - and there are plenty of health implications to both teeth removal and declawing..

Michel
August 4th, 2004, 10:44 AM
Oh please, just step down off your soap box.

Ya, was there, saw surgury done on one cat 19 yrs ago. No big whoop. Conjunctive nail joint really is not comparative to human toe function. Every one of my cats (male and female) over the last 25 years have had this done. Every single time each vet said to keep them quiet for a solid 24 hours (multiple professionals).. and amazing (by some perspectives), all were back to normal in a day or so. Every animal was done before 6 months.

Oh and to whomever quipped about having their dog nails removed. Yes, had the dew claws from my GSD's done too.

Gee I must be just an evil crewl toe rag for declawing, keeping strictly inside, never vaccinating them all.. Funny how all the cats have lived to 18+ years (except my current lad who is a young 15).

Here is my pooooor so hard done by boy.. ha ha

the bottom line is, owners have a choice. You do not have the right to dissuade, bully or otherside attempt to slant someone else's choice.

sammiec
August 4th, 2004, 10:49 AM
Oh please, just step down off your soap box.

Ya, was there, saw surgury done on one cat 19 yrs ago. No big whoop. Conjunctive nail joint really is not comparative to human toe function. Every one of my cats (male and female) over the last 25 years have had this done. Every single time each vet said to keep them quiet for a solid 24 hours (multiple professionals).. and amazing (by some perspectives), all were back to normal in a day or so. Every animal was done before 6 months.

Oh and to whomever quipped about having their dog nails removed. Yes, had the dew claws from my GSD's done too.

Gee I must be just an evil crewl toe rag for declawing, keeping strictly inside, never vaccinating them all.. Funny how all the cats have lived to 18+ years (except my current lad who is a young 15).
Oh, sorry troll. I'll get down off my soap box, I can see my reign is over - do you need a help up? I can get you a stool?

Shae
August 4th, 2004, 10:55 AM
Now you are lying.....Owners are not permitted to sit in on the surgeries......very very rare occassions. For spay /declaw, you wouldn't be permitted in the operating room. Nice try

Shae
August 4th, 2004, 10:58 AM
And I never said they cannot recover. Can't you read? Go back to earlier posts if you choose to continue this thread, so we don't need to keep repeating ourselves. Many cats recover just fine in the long run, Many don't. I am referring to the procedure itself being cruel. As for dewclaws....those are removed also for the pets safetly. The hook onto loose carpets,etc....and it is just the 1 nail. We are talking toe joints on feet of cats. There is no camparison between spaying,neutering,DEWclaws, and DECLAWING! Get your facts straight please.

Shae
August 4th, 2004, 11:00 AM
Here is a sample list of countries where it is deemed illegal or inhumane to declaw.
Brazil
Australia
New Zealand
Yugoslavia
Japan
Austria
Switzerland
Norway
Sweden
Netherlands
Northern Ireland
Ireland
Denmark
Finland
Slovenia
Portugal
Belgium
England
Scotland
Wales
Italy
France
Germany
I ended up refusing to assist in declaw and taildocking. I took my job very seriously, it takes a lot for me to refuse to fulfill a duty / task at hand.

Writing4Fun
August 4th, 2004, 11:00 AM
Speaking of ridiculous....

Just wondering if you have had your dog declawed as well?
And while you're at it, you of course will want to have all of your pets' teeth removed. They can be just as dangerous as claws (or moreso). Because, like you said, fights and "accidents" will happen. Teeth have been known to cause a LOT of "serious injury".

Perhaps you'd be interested in having a pet turtle? Oops, no, they have claws.
A fish? Ah, but those scales can be abrasive, and they are very hard to de-scale.
A pet rock? Nope, those can fall off a shelf and hit someone's head....

Excellent points, Cactus Flower!! :p I have deep, permanent scars on my arms from the puppies in my life playfully clawing at me. My cat has never done permanent damage! As for how the kids deal with it - I have a 5yr old and a 10mth old - they are taught to respect the animals as much as the animals are taught to respect them, and of course are CONSTANTLY monitored when they're together. My furniture? The cat (once he left kittenhood) isn't interested in doing anything more than sleeping on the sofa. As for my screens, you can get pet screen at your local hardware store. My sister's very large dog claws at it like he's trying to dig his way into the house, and it's held up just fine.

For the love of God, please don't compare spaying/neutering to having a cat declawed. Besides the obvious benefit of population control, someone has already listed the multitude of health benefits to spaying/neutering. I sincerely doubt a cat will contract "claw cancer" if you don't declaw it! :rolleyes:

I was glad to read the original poster decided not to put her cat through this. Good for you!! :D

Michel
August 4th, 2004, 11:01 AM
Sorry, but true, was there for declaw and spay.

Small town, personal relationship with the vet and at that time (just starting college) was considering that vocation so as an 'intern' had to participate. The job was too sad for me and better left to those who don't get all upset over sick and injured pets.

sammiec
August 4th, 2004, 11:03 AM
The job was too sad for me and better left to those who don't get all upset over sick and injured pets.

Guess it's not too sad to see the animals that come in and have had an infection set in because they were declawed and scrapped their way through the kitty litter and got an infection in their paw. It's all inflammed and they cannot walk on it because of the pain, that's not sad enough eh? :mad:

Michel
August 4th, 2004, 11:05 AM
Guess it's not too sad to see the animals that come in and have had an infection set in because they were declawed and scrapped their way through the kitty litter and got an infection in their paw. It's all inflammed and they cannot walk on it because of the pain, that's not sad enough eh? :mad:

Indeed that would be sad. Shame on the owner who doesn't maintain appropriate cleanliness.

sammiec
August 4th, 2004, 11:05 AM
Indeed that would be sad. Shame on the owner who doesn't maintain appropriate cleanliness.
It can depend on the type of litter my friend....

Shae
August 4th, 2004, 11:08 AM
Michel said: Small town, personal relationship with the vet and at that time (just starting college) was considering that vocation so as an 'intern' had to participate. The job was too sad for me and better left to those who don't get all upset over sick and injured pets.

I think someones nose is growing.....and it doesnt matter either way does it really? It was the cat lying on the operating table, not you. You get upset over sick and injured pets? Hmmmmm..... interesting, you still feel this procedure is acceptable.......READ OTHER POSTS IN THIS THREAD.....EDUCATE YOURSELF 1ST
(as for litter.....use shredded newspaper instead)

sammiec
August 4th, 2004, 11:22 AM
Good posts Shae!

LOL, this was an interactive image... it's supposed to show the hand without fingertips.... :rolleyes:

hddlstn02
August 4th, 2004, 12:35 PM
I also think this is one of the the cruelest things that can be done to a cat. For those of you who think it is OK, why don't you guys go get just 1 fingernail removed? Then, let everyone know how it was & how it feels afterward. Besides, you really don't need it to survive, so it wouldn't hurt anything. Also, as far as I'm concerned, comparing spaying/nuetering to declawing is like comparing a vasectomy/hysterectomy to a boob job...There is no comparison. I have a question for those of you who condone this & have had it done to your animals: What if your beloved pet gets out of the house one of these days & gets mauled by dog & the only reason it did is because it's declawed? How are you going to feel then? I'm sorry, but I would much rather pay for new screen or have torn up furniture than hurt my animals like that, and perhaps, get them killed in the long run. My personal opinion is that if you don't like animals scratching on furniture, etc......DON'T HAVE ANIMALS! (Inside @ least)

I understand lots of animals "calm down" after they get older and either don't start scratching at all or quit (if they did), but I have a 2 yr. old nuetered tom (Chauncey) and he is still just as playful as the day we I got him, so if you're waiting for you cat to "out grow" something, don't hold your breath...(Of course, Chauncey's a little spoiled too! :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

I'm extremely glad the original poster decided not to have this done to her cat, I think you'll thank yourself in the long run!

sammiec
August 4th, 2004, 12:38 PM
My personal opinion is that if you don't like animals scratching on furniture, etc......DON'T HAVE ANIMALS! (Inside @ least)


I think you mean well; but please do not encourage people to leave their pets outside. There are very many harmful and deadly things outside. They should NEVER be left permanently outdoors.

Shae
August 4th, 2004, 01:44 PM
Michel....... Let's say for arguements sake you DID witness the surgery. (I still think you're lying ) Let's also assume your cat recovered well (which doesnt make the procedure any more humane!) This doesn't make it acceptable! Did you witness also your cats immediate recovery? I am referring to the next several hours of just waking up from anesthetic. I doubt it. Of course you wouldn't hang around there all afternoon watching and waiting. I have witnessed 1st hand horror stories ok? I had to try to restrain and calm a cat down that was shaking her front feet and crying out so violently that her bandages flew off, she repeatedly banged her little feet against the kennel walls, blood spurting everywhere. I ended up having to stab her with more Torb (pain med) as the vet on duty held her down wearing rabie protective gloves as this kitty was so out of control she bit the kennel door bars and ended up doing damage to her jaw!This is just 1 story! I have many. Just b/c you (not nec. your cat) had an ok experience does not make it ok! Some women recover after a rape or abuse.....some do not. IT DOESN'T MAKE IT OK TO RAPE. Some recover from drug use just fine......is it ok to abuse drugs? You'd recover ok if I broke your arm.......but do you really want me to break it? Better yet, how about we amputate your toes joints (crunch) as we do a cats during a declaw....after all, you said yourself, it's no big deal. Think about it

GsdDiamond
August 4th, 2004, 03:39 PM
These people that condone declawing obviously have no idea what it really entails.

Some years ago I knew a person who had her cat declawed. The cat escaped out the front door one day (it was an indoor cat - declawed to save the furnature)...
I've seen the cat trying to defend itself without front claws....not a pretty sight.
I've seen the cat trying to climb a tree to escape a free roaming dog....couldn't climb worth a bean. It was lucky the dog couldn't run as fast as it could scared.
I've seen the cat try to jump from one ledge to another. It couldn't make the jump because it still thought it had claws.
You see, a cat will use the front claws to help it maintain a grip on whatever it's jumping on, in conjunction with the back claws. That's why a lot of times you'll hear the scraping sounds the cat is making as it completes the jumps. If it doesn't have the front claws, there's no grip. It can lose its balance and fall. When caught off guard like that, a cat will not always land on its feet.

Asking these people to compare the love you have for the animal, when you get it spay/neutered to reduce the "call of the wild", unwanted kittens, fighting, spraying, the health risks, with the selfishness of having the front feet operated on to dock the toes before the first knuckle, is something that can't be done.

All those who truly love animals, and who want what's best for them, not their furnature, or the little scar they may get from a claw scratch, know how cruel it is to have the poor creature declawed. To try and explain this to the (seamingly) uncaring, uninformed people, is a waste of breath. We all know that the animals are really suffering from long term effects of this surgury (I named some earlier in the post) but they're oblivious.

chico2
August 4th, 2004, 03:52 PM
There is absolutely no debating this issue,declawing is a cruel mutilation,that should never be performed on any innocent,unsuspecting little cat.
We here in Canada,with very outdated 100yr old animal-cruelty laws($$$$ speaks!),should follow many European countries,where declawing,debarking etc....is outlawed.

hddlstn02
August 4th, 2004, 04:36 PM
I think you mean well; but please do not encourage people to leave their pets outside. There are very many harmful and deadly things outside. They should NEVER be left permanently outdoors.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree, animals are made to be outside & as long as they have owners that take care of them & don't leave harmful things in their area they'll be fine. I understand bringing animals in in the dead of winter or in the hottest temp.'s in the summer, but I don't think it hurts to have them outside the rest of the time. I do live in a rural area in Missouri, so maybe if I lived in the city I would feel differently, but where I live, animals are just fine outside. And, like I said, they are made for the outdoors, their bodies show this. I really don't want to start an argument over this topic, I was merely explaining my view on declawing. (Which I still think is very WRONG!)

hddlstn02
August 4th, 2004, 04:41 PM
Speaking of ridiculous....

Just wondering if you have had your dog declawed as well?
And while you're at it, you of course will want to have all of your pets' teeth removed. They can be just as dangerous as claws (or moreso). Because, like you said, fights and "accidents" will happen. Teeth have been known to cause a LOT of "serious injury".

Perhaps you'd be interested in having a pet turtle? Oops, no, they have claws.
A fish? Ah, but those scales can be abrasive, and they are very hard to de-scale.
A pet rock? Nope, those can fall off a shelf and hit someone's head....


He, he, he! :p This had me cracking up. I totally agree w/ you! I love your wit! Keep it up. :D

Cactus Flower
August 4th, 2004, 06:22 PM
Thank you :)

Shae
August 17th, 2004, 01:07 PM
Here's a small example of why you shouldn't declaw. This is fairly minor comapred to some complicaions, but a complication none the less. You'll find it in the thread "declawed cat"

Cactus Flower
August 17th, 2004, 05:17 PM
Thank you Shae....I'm headed that way...

boris
August 19th, 2004, 07:07 PM
Good question to ask before doing it!

DON'T!! It's cruel and very painful to the cats. Others with cat knowledge more extensive then my little bit of info can give you the graphic details of what they have to endure and go through.

It's not necessary, so pls dont' do it!


Oh, please...Sure, it's not comfortable after any surgery. But if it's getting done at the same time as a neuter or spay, then the "hurt" is just relative. The anatomy lesson of what goes on during a declaw is just inflammatory rhetoric. Jeez, getting one's below the belt "equipment" chopped off is not exactly a party for the animal, either. In fact, I think if a cat could talk, he'd tell you to remove his claws before you even consider touching his goodies.

All three of my prior cats were front declawed at the same time they were spayed/neutered, and they all lived happy lives of over 20 years each. The major concern is if the cat ever gets outside and loose for a few hours or even days, which inevitably happens to everybody's cat. The declawed cat is then at a major disadvantage if it gets itself into a battle with another cat. I now have two Russian Blues, and that is the sole reason I'm not having them declawed. Yes, I'd like to have them declawed, but I know from prior experience they will eventually sneak outside. It's only a matter of time. I want them to be able to battle with another cat if they have to. But then again, I don't have young children who could get badly clawed by an angry pet. If I did, my decision just might be different.

chico2
August 19th, 2004, 10:23 PM
Boris,com on the hurt is "relative",to whom? You?
I would never dream of causing any of my cats,that kind of pain to save my furniture.....anyone even contemplating mutilating their cat to suit their own needs,should look into getting an aquarium instead.

boris
August 20th, 2004, 09:18 AM
Here is a sample list of countries where it is deemed illegal or inhumane to declaw.
Brazil
Australia
New Zealand
Yugoslavia
Japan
Austria
Switzerland
Norway
Sweden
Netherlands
Northern Ireland
Ireland
Denmark
Finland
Slovenia
Portugal
Belgium
England
Scotland
Wales
Italy
France
Germany
I ended up refusing to assist in declaw and taildocking. I took my job very seriously, it takes a lot for me to refuse to fulfill a duty / task at hand.

I can name just as many countries where it's deemed O.K. to eat a declawed kitten for this evening's dinner. What's your point?

Writing4Fun
August 20th, 2004, 09:25 AM
I can name just as many countries where it's deemed O.K. to eat a declawed kitten for this evening's dinner. What's your point?

OK, so name them...

boris
August 20th, 2004, 09:36 AM
Boris,com on the hurt is "relative",to whom? You?
I would never dream of causing any of my cats,that kind of pain to save my furniture.....anyone even contemplating mutilating their cat to suit their own needs,should look into getting an aquarium instead.


The whole concept of "pet" is strictly to suit the needs of people. Your entire argument is even more floppy than the fish in your aquarium...By the way, how did you reach your conclusion that your fish are thrilled about having to spend their entire lives inside a glass container not large enough to hold a carton of eggs?

boris
August 20th, 2004, 09:45 AM
OK, so name them...

I don't have to name them. Anybody with any semblance of common sense knows it's true...You can start by taking a closer look at last night's take-out order.

Sneaky2006
August 20th, 2004, 09:48 AM
Boris, you said you can name them, so why won't you?

Writing4Fun
August 20th, 2004, 09:53 AM
I don't have to name them. Anybody with any semblance of common sense knows it's true...You can start by taking a closer look at last night's take-out order.

Boris, your comments are offensive, insulting and confrontational, and have been so through each and every one of your posts.

I don't know about you, but my aquarium is much larger than a carton of eggs - or several cartons, for that matter.

Does anyone else suspect a troll here??

boris
August 20th, 2004, 09:56 AM
Boris, you said you can name them, so why won't you?

Because my hands are holding chopsticks of what I thought was chicken fried rice, but on closer inspection, is actually kitty chow mein. How do you expect me to type without getting it all over my keyboard? It was tough enough just typing this paragraph without getting the whiskers stuck in-between the keys. This is an expensive Dell...Do you intend to replace it for me if it gets damaged?

Writing4Fun
August 20th, 2004, 10:04 AM
Because my hands are holding chopsticks of what I thought was chicken fried rice, but on closer inspection, is actually kitty chow mein. How do you expect me to type without getting it all over my keyboard? It was tough enough just typing this paragraph without getting the whiskers stuck in-between the keys. This is an expensive Dell...Do you intend to replace it for me if it gets damaged?

So then why are you eating it? And can you try to type a reply without including an insult or racist remark?

Sneaky2006
August 20th, 2004, 10:06 AM
First of all you are disgusting, I didn't want to start an arguement with you, I just asked a simple question that I knew you wouldn't/couldn't truthfully answer and you just proved that.
Did you actually think that would be funny to anyone?
You need help, it's ok.. don't be scared, admitting it is the hardest!

boris
August 20th, 2004, 10:09 AM
Boris, your comments are offensive, insulting and confrontational, and have been so through each and every one of your posts.

I don't know about you, but my aquarium is much larger than a carton of eggs - or several cartons, for that matter.

Does anyone else suspect a troll here??


Why is it when somebody makes an excellent point that totally contradicts your point of view, it's automatically a "troll?" You still haven't answered the question...How is it "humane" to keep a fish inside a shoebox-sized glass container for every minute of its worthless life? Precisely what makes the life of Charlie the Tuna any less important than the life of Morris the Cat, and just who are you to make that determination?

boris
August 20th, 2004, 10:42 AM
So then why are you eating it? And can you try to type a reply without including an insult or racist remark?

Racist???????????

Writing4Fun
August 20th, 2004, 10:58 AM
Why is it when somebody makes an excellent point that totally contradicts your point of view, it's automatically a "troll?" You still haven't answered the question...How is it "humane" to keep a fish inside a shoebox-sized glass container for every minute of its worthless life? Precisely what makes the life of Charlie the Tuna any less important than the life of Morris the Cat, and just who are you to make that determination?

You can contradict me all you like. What makes you a troll is that you have done nothing but insult people with every post you make. Your points are not excellent, they are insulting and confrontational - hence the "troll" qualification.

My aquarium is also larger than a shoebox. Why is the fish's life "worthless"? The fish's life is no less important than the cat's. The fish live in an aquarium proportional to their size. They are healthy and well-fed. Morris has proven that his intelligence and capability to feel emotions far oustrips that of Charlie, and he provides affection and companionship. And he can breathe air, which is why he is allowed to roam free in my home.

You have stated, "The whole concept of "pet" is strictly to suit the needs of people.". May I ask who are you to make that determination? If you are against keeping fish in aquariums because it is "inhumane", then you must also be against keeping dogs in houses, or horses in stalls, etc... If that is the case, then you have ventured onto the wrong bulleting board because the people here are all pet enthusiasts.

And, yes, it is racist to make the generalization that all food of Oriental origin contains cat meat and parts. If you truly believe that the food you are currently eating does contain cat parts, then may I suggest that you stop eating it and file a report against the restaurant that you ordered it from.

boris
August 20th, 2004, 11:19 AM
First of all you are disgusting, I didn't want to start an arguement with you, I just asked a simple question that I knew you wouldn't/couldn't truthfully answer and you just proved that.
Did you actually think that would be funny to anyone?
You need help, it's ok.. don't be scared, admitting it is the hardest!


You cannot possibly be that naive...Or, apparently are are. Cats and dogs are considered tasty by people all over the world. In North America (Mexico), Central America, Asia, Africa and wherever else your own personal cultural bias doesn't apply. Even in the United States, where immigrants come into the country and do the same thing. The only reason some countries bother to put on a song and dance routine by purportedly "banning" the practice is because of intense public pressure applied by the West. And even then, any purported ban is really just a phony unenforced show to appease the West. Making cat and dog stew is still done all over the place, and nobody but the West cares. For the people eating it, it's perfectly O.K. None of your arguments are based in logic or reason, just pure unadulterated emotion. As this relates to the front paws on a pet cat, when anybody uses emotional buzzwords like "mutilate" to describe a declaw, credibility has instantly taken a holiday.

Sneaky2006
August 20th, 2004, 11:44 AM
Yeah you still didn't make your list, which you said you could. I don't need a lecture from you on anything, nor do I want one.
This thread was about cat declawing, not about eating cat or dog.
Everyone here loves their pets, and I'm sure none agree to eating them. This forum is here for help with pet issues, adoption, training and such. Why exactly are you here?

chico2
August 20th, 2004, 12:01 PM
Boris,what on earth is your problem :confused:
I mentioned an aquarium because fish cannot scratch your precious furniture.
Fish as you know,have no memory,so I hardly think it's cruel to keep fish in a large tank.
My cats all came from different situations and yes,I have them to please me,because I love them,my furniture takes a backseat to my cats.
We had a whole different Thread on Asian dinner-practises,maybe you missed it :confused:
Your sickening description of what you might be having for lunch,just proves what kind of person you are...got a thrill did you?
By chance are you part of the group who got a high from experimenting on Kensington the cat?
Please take a rest,this Forum is for people who care about their animals.
Lucky,please relieve us from this person.

boris
August 20th, 2004, 12:03 PM
Yeah you still didn't make your list, which you said you could. I don't need a lecture from you on anything, nor do I want one.
This thread was about cat declawing, not about eating cat or dog.
Everyone here loves their pets, and I'm sure none agree to eating them. This forum is here for help with pet issues, adoption, training and such. Why exactly are you here?

O.K....North Korea, South Korea, China, Mexico, Thailand, ad nauseum. Take out your world map and throw three darts. I guarantee at least one of those three darts will hit a country where a guy is now screaming at his wife that Morris and Fido weren't tender. Not to repeat myself, but you evidently read only what you want to read: As this relates to declaws, it's purely your own bias talking. Logic and reason never has bias. All pets are living for our own needs. If you really wanted cats to live in the manner they were supposed to live, then you'd be letting them run free in the woods so they can kill a robin and a mouse.

Sneaky2006
August 20th, 2004, 12:03 PM
Amen sister! (chico)
yeah boris, that list is just as long as the other, I think not.
But I realized that we are fueling his sick mind to make more probs, I am done with him/her/it whatever!

Lucky Rescue
August 20th, 2004, 12:20 PM
According to the Webster-Merriam dictionary:

"Mutiliate":

1 : to cut up or alter radically so as to make imperfect
2 : to cut off or permanently destroy a limb or essential part of

This is hardly an "emotional buzzword", but a definition. To cut off the ends of an animal's toes is a mutiliation. I'm sure that definition would be used if someone cut the ends of YOUR toes off, no?

That other cultures may include cats and dogs in their diets hardly has anything to do with us cutting off the ends of our cat's toes, or dog's ears/tails, merely for convenience, fashion or whim.

As for letting cats "run free in the woods" - cats are semi-domesticated and not suited for life in the wild, if only for the reason that they do not have the reproductive checks and limits of truly wild animals.

boris
August 20th, 2004, 08:44 PM
According to the Webster-Merriam dictionary:

"Mutiliate":

1 : to cut up or alter radically so as to make imperfect
2 : to cut off or permanently destroy a limb or essential part of

This is hardly an "emotional buzzword", but a definition. To cut off the ends of an animal's toes is a mutiliation. I'm sure that definition would be used if someone cut the ends of YOUR toes off, no?

That other cultures may include cats and dogs in their diets hardly has anything to do with us cutting off the ends of our cat's toes, or dog's ears/tails, merely for convenience, fashion or whim.

As for letting cats "run free in the woods" - cats are semi-domesticated and not suited for life in the wild, if only for the reason that they do not have the reproductive checks and limits of truly wild animals.


The color "blue" is a definition. Blue is blue. "Mutilation" is a matter of opinion. An emotional buzzword. The difference between "terrorist" and "freedom fighter." Depends on your point of view. So, I suppose in your opinion, when I was circumcised, I was mutilated. Interesting perspective.

glasslass
August 20th, 2004, 09:00 PM
My opinion:

a. TROLL

b. Not worthy of my time

AMELIA
August 21st, 2004, 08:00 AM
You have to ask yourself why would you be getting the cat declawed? Is the cat is permanently damaging your furniture? I have had cats all my life and had to declaw my last two due to this reason. I tried and tried every alternative, for example scratch posts etc but no way, they still loved my expensive furniture and were doing some major damage. It was either declaw or put up for adoption. So I opted for the declaw. They are fine and now act like nothing ever happened. I have absolutely no regrets. Of course they are both indoor cats only. PS my best friend decided not to declaw because of all the bad things she heard about it, and only lasted two years She just brought her cat home from the vet and from getting declawed. He was an indoor cat also, and did major damage to their furniture. It was replacement time for the furniture and either get rid of the cat or declaw. It sounds cruel to declaw, but at least he has a good, loving home. Again,he is fine.

chico2
August 21st, 2004, 08:03 AM
Boris,your list of countries is proof of how ignorant you really are.China,North-Korea etc...where human rights are non-existing,much less animal-rights,hardly compares to any democratic western society.
Also,on this pet-board,I think we have heard and seen just about anything regarding animal-cruelty,so your little thrillseeking fantasy about eating a kitty,just does not flush. :)

AMELIA
August 21st, 2004, 08:17 AM
One more thing I wanted to add. If I hadn't declawed my cat both of my children by now would have had scratches to their faces etc. Although Natalie is a loving cat, at times she has swiped both of my kids and myself in the face. I want to emphasise that we did not abuse her or ever hit her either to provoke this. If she had of had claws well who knows what damage she would have done. I was happy she didn't have claws. Again ABSOLUTELY NO REGRETS at getting her declawed.

chico2
August 21st, 2004, 08:24 AM
Amelia,YOU have no regrets and the deed is done....,ok!!
There are hundreds of"indoor"declawed cats at shelters around the country,who"accidentally"got out.I suppose they are the lucky ones,who manage to survive,not being able to defend themselves and climb away from danger.

Writing4Fun
August 21st, 2004, 08:30 AM
I keep coming back to this thread, wanting to reply - and then thinking, "It's all been said already. What more is there to add?". So I won't give my 2-cents worth (again).

But, I will ask - wasn't this thread locked at one point?? Or am I getting confused with another very volatile thread?? :confused:

AMELIA
August 21st, 2004, 08:34 AM
Yes, I agree about them getting outside can be very bad. That is one thing that you must be always aware of when you do declaw them. I know someone who lets their declawed cat out all the time, (I am shaking my head at it though) and this cat comes home frequently with little surprises--birds etc. Again, it's not the end of the world if they are declawed. Yes you must make sure they don't get outside... The chances that something bad would happen to them outside even if they had their claws is pretty high... I am not going to argue with you, seems like you like that, I just wanted the person who started this to know that it's not the end of the world for the cat. Take care Chico..

chico2
August 21st, 2004, 08:57 AM
Amelia,I am probably the least argumentative person,there are however a few things I absolutely oppose,mutilating cats being one. Take care :D
W4F,yes I thought this was now a closed subject,but it keeps popping up :D

Freyja
August 21st, 2004, 10:02 AM
Hey if we want to go totally off topic on this one, many people now consider circumcision to be genital mutilation. The Canadian and American pediatric association no longer recommend it. So yes Boris you were mutilated.

Catt31
August 21st, 2004, 10:11 AM
FOUR pages??? WTF?????? This is absurd and I didn't even read the whole thread!!

Agree with glassy - troll and not worthy of my time!! :cool:

Shae
August 22nd, 2004, 12:14 AM
Wow, If someone like Boris began posting in the animalrightscafe......he'd be banned. Some people have nothing better to do than come into a forum that is animal friendly and talks about general wellbeing for an animal and argue every point made. I never pretend to know everything about animals....but experience talks. I've worked 16 long years in an anomal hosp as assistant (surgical,etc) Declawing is wrong. Scroll back a couple pages ago to the illustration I posted. If you still think it's acceptable, well, I'm not going to repeat how I feel anymore. There is a reason this procedure is being banned in several countries. Canada needs to pick up the pace and jump on the bandwagon! Glad your cats appear to be doing well. I still bet they'd love to have their toe joints back. The decision ....declaw or find her a good home.....choosing declaw is strictly for selfish reasons. I understand you love your pet, but thats exactly the reason you shouldn't do that to your animal companion. Sharon (Moderator at the AR Cafe)

pxxiegirl
September 15th, 2004, 10:07 PM
I do understand and agree that declawing only benefits the cat owner, not the cat. However, I am a cat owner who would not otherwise be a cat owner if I did not have declawed cats. I have two females whom I took off the hot 100+ degree streets of AZ where coyotes roam at night. I have a 5 year old daughter who was deeply scratched in the first week we had Serendipity. I made the decision to declaw because I am more comfortable with declawed cats in my home. I hope the fact that I am giving these cats a safe, cool, loving home with good food and plenty of water can override the fact that I had their claws removed. They might otherwise be on still on the streets dehydrated, starving, in danger from wildlife and vehicles or taken somewhere to be euthanized. My vet used a lazor which he assured minimizes healing time and pain as well as administering a pain med injection. In a perfect world there would not be so many cats in need of homes. But I feel that a cat owner who declaws is better than no cat owner at all.

krdahmer
September 15th, 2004, 10:18 PM
I would tend to agree with you. I do not declaw, but I have no children and have ample time to train the cats. I did declaw my Cordelia when I had to move back home because the choices were declaw her or find her a new home. I chose to keep her and continue to give her much love and affection, and now I can't imagine it any other way. I think that a loving home is by far the more important issue. :)

chico2
September 16th, 2004, 07:58 AM
I am and always will be 150% against declawing.Cats do not generally go around attacking scratching people.
If kids get scratched,maybe they need to learn to respect a cat and not treat it like a toy.
My cats are terrified of little kids,who's favourite "thing"seems to be pulling their tail and lugging them around(not that I let any kids do that).Kids need to be made aware of cat do's and don'ts or there will be scratches.
Although I give you kudos for rescuing a couple of needy cats,I still wish you would have saved them from mutilation.

cutiecherise
October 11th, 2004, 02:05 AM
I'm glad you decided not to declaw!

As for kids gettig scratched,
when i was 5 years old, a golden retreiver chased a young orange tabby on my backyard porch,
and me being the little good samaritan,
tried to pull it away from the dog,

Of course, kitty didn't think i was a very good defence mechanism,
but i certainly added some space between him and the dog as he climbed frantically up my face.

I am now 20,
and i still have scars on my cheek from that incident.

...
Do i regret being scratched?
No, not really.
It horrified my parents because it made me so unbearable to look at, and they were ashamed because i'd never be a model, and it hurt a bit,
but
If i were to take back every incident and occassion in which i learned something which could have left a mark,
I would probably have learned very little in my life.

Not that i'm not regularly scratched by cats since that day,
butat least i now know how to hold them so they can't climb up my face while fleeing.

heeler's rock!
October 11th, 2004, 12:04 PM
I am also strongly against declawing a cat, however, I had a similar situation as krd had.

When I got my first kitty ever, Puff, at the Lethbridge Humane Society, she had claws. She is a gorgeous cat, and I loved her to death! I kept her with her claws the whole time I was in Lethbridge and I brought her home to my parents house when I moved back to Calgary. Puff started tearing up my mom's favourite chairs and the side of the couch was gone in a matter of months. All that was left was wood. Puff was doing immense damage to my mom's furniture. I tried getting her used to a scratching post and everything, but my mom insisted that if I didn't get Puff declawed, she wouldn't let me keep her.

I knew people that wanted Puff, but I couldn't bear to say goodbye to my best friend, and I didn't know the people that well. The neighbour said she'd take Puff, but she has 2 horrible, animal abusing kids and I would never EVER subject Puff to that.

I talked to my mom about alternatives like Soft Paws (the rubber caps for claws), but she didn't want to have to replace them every 4 weeks because her nails grew. I tried trimming Puff's nails, it didn't stop her. Finally, my mom said enough. Either Puff got declawed or she was taking her to the humane society. My mom decided to renovate and replace the furniture, and she didn't want Puff destroying the new furniture. My mom was also getting burbur (sp?) carpeting and if you snag it, the whole thing comes undone!

I had no choice. I felt aweful and made my mom miserable for what she had done. I told her that she mutilated Puff and that it wasn't right. I also then told my mom that since she wanted it so bad, Puff was now her responsibility. Since Puff could no longer defend herself, I chose not to bring her with me when I got married, and made my mom and sister her primary caregivers, as I have 3 dogs and it wasn't fair to Puff. Lucily, Puff was okay after the surgery and I tended to her 24/7 to make sure she didn't hurt herself.

My mom is now happy and I still make her feel bad every now and then for declawing Puff, but what's done is done and Puff has a great home with my sister who loves that cat with all her heart. Puff loves my sister too and I couldn't imagine Puff anywhere else.

My 2 cats now are not declawed and never will be. I have been able to train them pretty well though and I trim their nails regularly.

.unknown.
October 11th, 2004, 01:41 PM
Any of the cat's i've had including the one i currently own, have their claws.
The only point in my life i've ever been scratched by them is when they were kittens.

If you can't take the time to train your cat to use a scratching post, or are afraid of the cat scratching your kids or you, don't get one.

I doubt you would bring a dog into your home if you thought it would bite your children. Like someone said earlier, when a cat has no claws it tend to bite. Cat bites are not pretty. A friend's husband got bit by their cat and ended up with a blood infection. They carry bad bacteria in their mouths.

And to be honest,My dog has scratched me more in her younger days than both mine and friends cats combined.

Animals really, when involved with humans have no other choice but to adjust to whatever the human wants.... So why make it painful and uncomfortable?

I'm fairly sure i've only reiterated what has already been said, i doubt it will change anyone's minds...

i still fail to see how cutting off a cat's toes is for it's own health.

if you have other pets, you can train them too.

but maybe it's just easier to alter your cat.

i dunno.

it's didn't seem like that much work for me..
:confused: