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Horses for meat-CBC documentary

kmd
June 11th, 2008, 09:25 AM
Anybody else see the CBC doc. last night? it's horrible this can happen in Canada. The U.S. ended the legal slaughter, so now they send all their horses up here. Some of these horses were people's pets that they grew tired of, other are race horses that aren't winning, and there were also some gorgeous work horses. These poor animals aren't used to being mistreated and their last days are spent in pure hell. I thought we were a civilized country, but we certainly have taken a step backward if this happens.


For more info check out-http://www.cbc.ca/national/blog/special-feature/no-country-for-horses/more-from-twyla-francois.html

ancientgirl
June 11th, 2008, 09:28 AM
I don't live in Canada so I didn't see the documentary, nor would I be able to stomach it. But I've read about that situation.

I think it's appalling. We, in my opinion, are no longer in any way a civilized society.

Love4himies
June 11th, 2008, 09:43 AM
We are supposed to be civilized, but only to humans, Canada is sooooo far behind on humane treatment of animals and punishment for animal cruelty. Gov't is too busy doing something, not sure what, perhaps traveling around the world???

ancientgirl
June 11th, 2008, 10:23 AM
L4H, don't feel so bad about Canada. What about the US Government that knowingly ships these poor horses up there knowing what will happen.

Out of sight, out of mind.:frustrated:

Lise
June 11th, 2008, 01:54 PM
Canada is building more slaughter houses to handle the influx of US horses,the standardbred industry is going to start dumping even more horses.The refuge gets calls every day from people who end conversations with if you don't help he's going for meat.At least dog/cat rescues don't hear that.

Frenchy
June 11th, 2008, 02:32 PM
people who end conversations with if you don't help he's going for meat.At least dog/cat rescues don't hear that.

Yes we do ! What we hear is a bit different : if you don't help he's going to get put down.

:frustrated:

I didn't see the CBC documentary , thank dog. :sad:

Frenchy
June 11th, 2008, 02:34 PM
Gov't is too busy doing something, not sure what, perhaps traveling around the world???

What else are they going to do with our tax money ? :wall:

want4rain
June 11th, 2008, 02:39 PM
im sorry but.... meat for what????? im turning a little green in the face folks....

-ash

sophistikitten
June 11th, 2008, 07:21 PM
im sorry but.... meat for what????? im turning a little green in the face folks....

-ash

I saw the beginning of the CBC program but my "farmervision" reception isn't too good so I turned it off. So I don't know what kind of meat they were talking about on the program but I know I have seen horse meat advertised in my local grocery store flyer here in Quebec.

Jim Hall
June 11th, 2008, 08:51 PM
meat for overseas for god knoes what horse meat doesnt tatse too good
neither does goat ut its cheap and heck are you going to to with them

lol umm maybe set up the nation of horse formely known as oklahoma?


whane animals are used for profit the animal suffers peta does have thay right

glitterless
June 12th, 2008, 12:45 AM
There's nothing wrong with eating horse meat. I couldn't eat it, but to me that would be like eating a dog or cat. But I won't judge others who do eat it.

Changes do need to be made, but we CANNOT and should not aim to ban horse slaughter in Canada. There are already far too many unwanted horses. There are not enough homes, there is not enough money, and there is not enough support for unwanted horses. They end up neglected and they suffer. While slaughter can obviously be very ugly when things go wrong, it is the ONLY end for many horses.

Unfortunately I've seen neglected horses. I was once on a farm of about 50 horses. All were unhandleable and were part of the owner's crazy breeding plan that never worked out. The horses bred and produced foals, but she couldn't sell them. In the end, they weren't being fed, they weren't getting any veterinary care, and their hooves were horrendously overgrown.

This place was just one of hundreds, I'm sure. Luckily most of those horses were slaughtered. But what will happen to horses like those when they are abandoned by their owners? Do any of you who protest slaughter have the facilities, time, and money to take these horses on?

The issue here is breeding just as it is with dogs and cats. Not every mare should be bred and almost every stallion should be a gelding!

I am so upset by this documentary and media coverage, but for a different reason than many of you. I now realize that Canada will likely ban slaughter in the next few years and I'm very worried about what will happen to the horses that would have been destined for slaughter.

Please don't breed your horses and please don't support this ban unless you're willing to pick up the pieces when everything falls apart.

Lise
June 12th, 2008, 08:57 AM
Horse slaughter should be banned.The horse industry would start to regulate itself if there was not more money to made dumping poorly bred horses that should never have been produced.Owners should take responsability for their horses for life,not just the horses useful life.My Jack is over thirty,still happy and pasture sound.He gave me lot of pleasure when I rode,now it's my turn.Happy takes care of my daughter when she events and hunts him,he will have the same retirement as Jack.Rio, Ali's now outgrown pony also has a home for as he can enjoy a happy healthy life.Out of our seven horses four are ridden/worked regularly the rest goof off.They all get the same vet,farrier care working or not.Many countries are banning horse slaughter,it can not be done humanely.The stress brought on by shipping and slaughtering an animal so subject to stress makes that impossible.If a ban was brought into effect,short term we would have a major dumping of horses.The answer there is prosecute owners for cruelty or neglect force them to take responsabiity.I worked in England for many years,were it is even more expensive to keep a horse and not once did I ever hear of anyone dumping there horse like here.Most stables had at least two or three old horses that were retired and still well cared for.If you ride you owe your horse a retirement nothing less.This is an animal that has taken care of you,that could kill you if they want to but chooses to obey and trust you Any less is a betrayl.I work with a horse rescue so I do understand the problem of unwanted horses,but slaughter is quick fix that only serves to increase the problem long term by offering owners an easy way of making money from horses that should never have been born.We need long term solutions.

ancientgirl
June 12th, 2008, 09:08 AM
Well said Lise, well said.

DoubleRR
June 12th, 2008, 09:48 AM
Lise, that is the arguement made that helped ban horse slaughter in the USA. Unfortunately, little to nothing is in place to REPLACE it and thousands of unwanted horses are affected. I am a member of horse forums where members are wondering what to do about all the abandoned and/or starving horses in several spots in the US. Horses are found wandering in towns, dying behind fences, and have been devalued because of supply to where even VERY well trained animals have no buyers even when marketed well below real value.
I agree with glitterless. A third of the world eats horsemeat the way we eat cow meat. As long as slaughter is humane, I see no reason not to have it. FAR better than a horrible long-suffering end that so many animals go through.
The program was tilted towards the view point of the anti-slaughter folk. The most radical, as in PETA, would have most of us never own an animal--certainly never ride a horse. Can you see how when you are at the top of a slippery slope you have to stop and ensure there are both working brakes and soft padding on the wall at the bottom?

Purpledomino
June 12th, 2008, 10:21 AM
Horse slaughter should be banned.The horse industry would start to regulate itself if there was not more money to made dumping poorly bred horses that should never have been produced.Owners should take responsability for their horses for life,not just the horses useful life.My Jack is over thirty,still happy and pasture sound.He gave me lot of pleasure when I rode,now it's my turn.Happy takes care of my daughter when she events and hunts him,he will have the same retirement as Jack.Rio, Ali's now outgrown pony also has a home for as he can enjoy a happy healthy life.Out of our seven horses four are ridden/worked regularly the rest goof off.They all get the same vet,farrier care working or not.Many countries are banning horse slaughter,it can not be done humanely.The stress brought on by shipping and slaughtering an animal so subject to stress makes that impossible.If a ban was brought into effect,short term we would have a major dumping of horses.The answer there is prosecute owners for cruelty or neglect force them to take responsabiity.I worked in England for many years,were it is even more expensive to keep a horse and not once did I ever hear of anyone dumping there horse like here.Most stables had at least two or three old horses that were retired and still well cared for.If you ride you owe your horse a retirement nothing less.This is an animal that has taken care of you,that could kill you if they want to but chooses to obey and trust you Any less is a betrayl.I work with a horse rescue so I do understand the problem of unwanted horses,but slaughter is quick fix that only serves to increase the problem long term by offering owners an easy way of making money from horses that should never have been born.We need long term solutions.

I couldn't agree more. Nothing angers me more than the pro-slaughter proponents argument that there is going to be a huge dumping of "unwanted" horses suffering needlessly. Slaughter keeps the ball rolling for irresponsible breeders, auction houses and neglectful horse owners because there is always a way to dispose of your horse and possibly make a buck instead of doing the right thing by rehoming or euthanizing. Horses are essentially companion animals, trained by us to be trusting partners and this very inhumane end is cruelty at its finest. The long term best interest of our horses is not served by slaughter as a viable option. Stricter animal cruelty laws need to be enforced, and the responsibilty needs to lie with the owners.

50,242 horses were killed in Canadian slaughterhouses in 2006. When horses are shipped for slaughter, they are transported over very long distances in cramped trailers built for cattle. Stallions, youngstock, pregnant mares and geldings, as well as sick and lame animals are not provided with food or water for sometimes days at a time. Unsurprisingly, some do not arrive alive. When they arrive terrified (if you know horses, you know this is true) they are herded by electric prods and visibly shaking, frightened to the point of losing control of their bladder and bowels, by the sights and smells of death around them. How humane is it to drive a four inch dead-bolt into the head of a terrified, intelligent, and agile animal? There is a HUGE probability for error, and quite often death does not come quick for the horses.

No-one is going to convince me that this is a viable option, or does our horses well. For the facts and information, about horse slaughter go to....www.defendhorsescanada.org

Purpledomino
June 12th, 2008, 10:28 AM
As long as slaughter is humane, I see no reason not to have it.
?


This is the point. It is not, and probably could not be.

DoubleRR
June 12th, 2008, 10:43 AM
The long term best interest of our horses is not served by slaughter as a viable option. Stricter animal cruelty laws need to be enforced, and the responsibilty needs to lie with the owners.

Correct--however what do we do in the meantime? We all know how slowly the wheels of justice turn. I have personally tried to stop puppy mills and what I would term horse mills in areas I have lived in--the SPCA can do nothing if water and food is available--no matter now awful the animals appear. I have testified in court in cases where the perp was awarded the animals after a cruelty investigation. The tv shows on the big city animal police make people think things have improved. In general they HAVE NOT. At least not in this country. What we need to do is get enforceable laws in place first--THEN end slaughter. That takes a lot of lobbying, as most of the public is more concerned about the lack of justice for people than animals.

I simply have seen too much abuse and starvation--even an inhumane death is kinder than that.

Purpledomino
June 12th, 2008, 11:23 AM
In the meantime we should abolish horse slaughter in Canada. There are no facts to support the myth that there will be an onslaught of "unwanted" horses starving and neglected. On the contrary. Please read this article, #5 is very interesting to note. http://www.vetsforequinewelfare.org/white_paper.php

I believe that slaughter encourages neglect, as money is the only objective to sell horses for slaughter. 100+ horses were seized in Alberta a few months ago due to neglect, and since slaughter was an option for this perpetrator, why did he not use the system? Probably because he just did not care, did not need/want the money his horses may bring for meat cost.

I personally know horse owners that have sold their beloved horses to the meat man, or taken them to the auction. I know for a fact that they did this because they had the OPTION to do so and make a buck, instead of the other option and euthanize at their expense. Money talks in this industry. Unfortunately the horses pay.

DoubleRR
June 12th, 2008, 12:46 PM
I only know what I and friends of mine have seen first hand. Following--a friend in the south eastern USA emailed me this while we were discussing the repercussions of slaughter plants closing down there:

Firsthand: A local farmer went to a cattle auction and came out to find four horses tied to his trailer.... He called us to see if we wanted them (NO!) - we received several phone calls from people giving away horses last year - and heard from a few others that this was not a one time occurence. The farmers that attend the once a week cattle auction took to parking their trailers at a local coop and diner parking lot so that they didn't end up with more of someone else's problem.

Firsthand: Friends of ours who work for the BLM have seen at least 2 dozen domestic horses that were just turned out on federal lands to fend for themselves - and that was way back in November. Most of them he said looked like older horses.. Plus, that was just in one small location. They were receiving reports from their fellow BLM officers that this is pretty wide spread.

Firsthand: A local television station this winter broadcast the story of the abandoned horses that were being turned out in old mining and quarry areas of KY.

Firsthand: Someone dropped a mini stallion off in a friend's front yard this past fall. She had to have him gelded, wormed, and find him a new home at her own expense..

You are never going to legislate morallity - it hasn't worked for drugs, alcohol, child abuse, dog fighting, etc.. it is not going to work for horse ownership..

Another:

Our shipper that we used to bring Joe home said that he's talked to many people all over the county.. Most people that are going to horse shows are locking there trailers cause people are filling them with horses while there in side showing..

One of the problems--yes, you can have your horse euthanized--but VERY often you are then responsible for the body, and there is no where that will accept it.

This is what I mean when I say there needs to be a replacement set of policies/laws in place.

Chris21711
June 12th, 2008, 01:10 PM
Correct--however what do we do in the meantime? We all know how slowly the wheels of justice turn. I have personally tried to stop puppy mills and what I would term horse mills in areas I have lived in--the SPCA can do nothing if water and food is available--no matter now awful the animals appear. I have testified in court in cases where the perp was awarded the animals after a cruelty investigation. The tv shows on the big city animal police make people think things have improved. In general they HAVE NOT. At least not in this country. What we need to do is get enforceable laws in place first--THEN end slaughter. That takes a lot of lobbying, as most of the public is more concerned about the lack of justice for people than animals.

I think you are wrong DoubleRR, even if a horse has food and water but they are need of health care, here in Ontario at least an order can be written to address the situation and if not addressed the animal can be seized. That I know to be true.
I simply have seen too much abuse and starvation--even an inhumane death is kinder than that.

Yes we do ! What we hear is a bit different : if you don't help he's going to get put down.

:frustrated:

I didn't see the CBC documentary , thank dog. :sad:

Did you know Frenchy that euthanized pets sometimes end up in good old Dog and Cat chow, just how disgusting is that :sad:

ancientgirl
June 12th, 2008, 01:26 PM
Did you know Frenchy that euthanized pets sometimes end up in good old Dog and Cat chow, just how disgusting is that :sad:

That's disturbing. I've seen studies showing cows that have mad cow disease were fed ground slaughtered cows in their feed and that may have been part of the development of the disease.

Purpledomino
June 12th, 2008, 02:06 PM
Absolutely laws and policies need to be put in place. I also believe that once horse slaughter in North America is abolished, the horse industry will regulate itself as it will be forced to. Long term, if there is no market for the product...there will be no product. Irresponsible breeders and owners will think twice about producing foals, race-horse operations will require methods of placing ex-racehorses, people will actually place,euthanize, or use rescue services. I do not buy that the majority are going to "dump" horses, or watch them die on their property. To assume this, I would also think that they would be neglectful regardless of slaughter being an option or not. The slaughter industry is entirely money driven, and if you read the statistics written there is no more cruelty, or neglect cases than before slaughter was banned in the US. Of course there will be cases of neglect and "unwanted" horses regardless, as long as human beings are flawed as they are, it is going to happen. This is an interesting article.
http://www.defendhorsescanada.org/pdf/white_paper.pdf

Lise
June 12th, 2008, 02:50 PM
As long as horse slaughter remains an option laws will not change.We have slaughter and still have cruelty and neglect.I've seen horses starved,still working when their fetlocks were almst touching the ground,being ridden with a leg that had been broken and left untreated to heal in a horrible angle.Horses are being bred to supply the meat market as well as unwanted horses.Hold owners responsable, prosecute cruelty.If we were talking about dogs or cats being sent to slaughter more people would be outraged.You are basing opinions on what is happening in the states,which only recently banned slaughter.Maybe it has to get worse before it gets better.I really hope so.

DoubleRR
June 12th, 2008, 03:12 PM
Again, I agree---hold owners responsible--hold breeders responsible--prosecute cruelty--that would be lovely. It took us 200 yrs to say sorry to the attrocities we did to the aboriginals of this country, wonder how long before we wake up to what we are doing to every other living being. I am not holding my breath. I do not want to see the end justify the means. I want the policies and laws to at least be on the table before slaughter is banned, is all I am saying here.

glitterless
June 13th, 2008, 05:01 AM
Horse slaughter should be legal as long as cattle slaughter is legal. People eat horses. You cannot deny that and who are we to stop people from eating horsemeat? Cattle slaughterhouses (often the same ones horses are done in) are the same. There are so many problems regarding slaughter and raising animals for human consumption. Transportation is one of these major issues. If there is anything in the world that I could change right now, I would ask that animals at least be shipped humanely to slaughter. No double deckers, enough breathing space so that they're comfortable, absolutley NO downer animals, and that the loads be checked regularly for animals that are injured en route.

I also think that some animals are going far too long without feed or water before slaughter. Some of these horses and cattle are going days without a drink. That's inhumane.

I'm ashamed of the CBC for airing such a slanted story. The pictures that I viewed online were propaganda plain and simple. They are no different from what you see on PETA's website. Some of those photos, like the shots of the hooves in a bucket are for shock value, as well as the shot of the horse heads and intestines. I know they were trying to prove a point (horses going to slaughter can't be shod and the heads & intestines shouldn't have been piled outside), but these are the pictures that are upsetting people and causing this outrage. Almost every frantic post that I've read (and I've been on several BBs in the past few days reading about the CBC broadcast) is referring to those pictures in particular.

Slaughter CAN be humane. I agree with what you guys are saying...slaughter on a large scale cannot be controlled and some things will always fall through the cracks. But don't make such blanket statements like saying that the slaughter of horses is inhumane, period. What is so wrong with killing a horse and eating it? A horse can be slaughtered just as humanely as a cow. I think the answer lies in smaller slaughterhouses with more government regulation. I live in a small farming community where some small time farmers like my parents ship their cattle one at a time to the local butcher/abatoir. There is nothing inhumane about the way these animals are treated. They are fed and well taken care of during their lives, transported in a roomy stock trailer, and killed before they know what's happening.

This topic is so sad. As objective as I'm trying to be, don't think I didn't react when I saw those CBC photos. My life is my horses. I live and breathe horses and just the thought of a horse in distress upsets me tremendously. But I've seen some really upsetting situations...actually more like deplorable situations and I see a need for slaughter.

Yes, Lise, I agree that in a perfect world we wouldn't kill and eat horses -- especially young, healthy, useful horses who can give a lot to people. We would take care of our old horses and we would let the rest of the world who consume horsemeat take care of themselves. But horse people, our peers, do not seem to want to do that because they keep breeding inferior horses and dumping older and unsound horses for something younger.

There *IS* a link between slaughter and unwanted horses. It shouldn't take much thinking to figure that one out. As long as there are unwanted horses, there will be a need for slaughter. Even if we could humanely euthanize every unwanted horse right now, where would we put the carcasses if they weren't used for meat?

glitterless
June 13th, 2008, 05:19 AM
Irresponsible breeders and owners will think twice about producing foals, race-horse operations will require methods of placing ex-racehorses, people will actually place,euthanize, or use rescue services. I do not buy that the majority are going to "dump" horses, or watch them die on their property. To assume this, I would also think that they would be neglectful regardless of slaughter being an option or not.

No, they won't think twice and yes they will neglect their horses. It's happening now every where!

Yesterday I heard about a case of 70 horses needing rescue. That is from one farm. I already mentioned the woman I knew of who had 50+ horses, most of which went for slaughter as she was finally forced to clean up.

FYI, these people don't decide one day, "Hey, I'll send off my 100 unbroke horses to the meat man." Rather they collect horses. They usually don't have much experience and get in over their head with unbroke, unhandleable horses. Foals start coming and they are over run. It's not cheap to keep horses. Hay and feed prices are soaring. One day this owner realizes that his lot of long-hooved, worm-infested, wild stock are too expensive to feed.

Can you sell a horse like that to a good home? Nope. No one is paying over $1,500 for a well broke horse right now and who in their right mind would pay anything for a horse that they can't touch, that needs vet care ASAP and that could be very dangerous?

So this owner takes the horses to an auction. In case many of you don't know, the horse market is flooded right now, partly because of the US slaughter ban. No one is taking chances on even a really pretty young horse at an auction if it isn't broke because they can go elsewhere for something at least halterbroke. So, the horses are bought by someone who sells them for meat.

So yes, people are neglectful with or without slaughter. The thing is, right now, we have a way to dispose of these mass produced horses that I spoke of above. It's not a nice end, but at least it gets them out of that person's field where who knows what would have happened to them.

As for rescues, they are overloaded and always will be no matter what happens with slaughter.

I am so tired of hearing people discuss "rescue" like it's an option. Take some responsibility for your own horse! If a TB (for example) owner can't rehome the horse when it finishes its racing career, why should a rescue (who have no money and resources) have to take on this horse?

I understand that it's not fun to watch your old, unsound horse in the pasture and not be able to afford to keep another horse to ride. But you know what? That's life. Why should a horse rescue -- most of which are privately run with no funding -- take on a horse that its owner, the person who it hauled around for years, could care for?

People are using rescues as a dump for horses that they can no longer use. Check the classifieds. There are tons of free horses available as companions because they are no longer able to be used for riding or breeding.

As for horses actually dying on properties? It happens all the time. I heard about one aged horse who was malnourished for years. His owner did feed him.. he got a bale of hay every month or so and scrounged around for whatever else he could find. He slowly died of congestive heart failure that was finally diagnosed by a vet, but far too late.

Lise
June 13th, 2008, 08:53 AM
I work with one of those underfunded flooded rescues.Some of my horses are rescues.Slaughter can not be an option in my opinion,how about euthanising humanely instead of up to 36 hours in truck with no food or water?Yes rescues are underfunded overworked etc,but at least we are trying to do something.I find it really sad that most of the support for many horse rescues comes from people who don't have horses,instead of just saying we need slaughter how about really fighting for some strong laws on cruelty and neglect,support rescues,get out and educate people who are breeding.Get involved if you aren't already.

Purpledomino
June 14th, 2008, 12:16 AM
I suppose that if you consider horses to be livestock, you would agree that slaughter is a viable option. If you deem them as companion animals and treat them as such, slaughter is uncomprehensible. Personally, I will support the Humane Society, the ASPCA and countless rescue organizations that put the welfare of horses in the forefront, and are staunch supporters of the anti-slaughter movement. These organizations are at the frontline of neglect, abandonment and abuse cases, and still are adamantly against slaughter. I can reasonably assume that if they thought horse slaughter was a "necessary evil" and of benefit to the general horse population, they would'nt be fighting so hard to abolish it.

As far as the "propaganda" goes, yes anything that is shocking to watch can be considered propaganda to those apposing it. The facts don't lie, just watch a video...look at pictures, read the articles. Anti-slaughter proponents don't just make this stuff up to pad our case, its real. There are lots of documents to read regarding this, from ligitimate sources and organizations.

Personally, I don't have a problem with people eating horseflesh. What happens after the fact isn't an issue in my mind anyway. The process leading up to that is though. As long as horses are killed in the barbaric way that they are now for consumption, and the path that leads them to the slaughterhouse I have enormous issue with. We would not stand and watch this happen to any other companion animals like dogs or cats. Why should we let it happen to horses? Unfortunately for the horses they can just be considered "livestock" when it suits us.

I have not seen or read any documents proclaiming that the US ban has left "unwanted" horses all over the place, or rising neglect cases. The information that I have seen points to the contrary, so I am still doubtful that the ban has had any adverse affects. I would really like to read them if they are out there. :shrug:

glitterless
June 14th, 2008, 03:10 AM
I have not seen or read any documents proclaiming that the US ban has left "unwanted" horses all over the place, or rising neglect cases. The information that I have seen points to the contrary, so I am still doubtful that the ban has had any adverse affects. I would really like to read them if they are out there. :shrug:

Check this out:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1809950,00.html?cnn=yes

I respect your opinions. I hope I'm not being preachy or lecturing anyone. Those aren't my intentions. Like you, I'm so upset by this...outraged is more like it. We have differing opinions, but my number one concern along with yours is the welfare of horses. I do feel responsible for neglected and unwanted horses because I'm aware of the problem.

Lise, that woman I mentioned with the 50+ horses was the breeder of my gelding pictured in my avatar. Who knows what would have happened to him if he was foaled on her farm. We took in his dam along with 4 other mares. It wasn't much considering she had so many horses, but I'm glad that I was able to help out those horses that were in need.

I definitely agree with the transportation issue. That is something that I think can change with legislation. I know that there are laws in place now, but many of them aren't enforced. It's time for a change.

I don't think it's sad that a lot of money going into rescues is from non-horsey people; I think it's wonderful that other people are involved.

Unfortunately there isn't one answer for this problem. We need some government regulation, but we also need to take responsibility. I think everyone who is actively involved in the horse industry needs to look at what they are doing. Don't breed, be careful who you sell a horse to, take care of your aged and unsound horses, and encourage others to do the same.

I hope I'm not generalizing too much here...but I have a huge issue with the majority of people who show, especially those at higher levels of competition. It seems to be so common for riders to upgrade to a "better" mount or to choose discipline-specific horses. For example, I know a girl with 2 perfectly good horses who is shopping for a been there, done that horse for her sister AND a "jumper" for herself. She is just learning to jump and what has now could do the job, but she wants a certain type of horse, like a warmblood or thoroughbred. Really, is that necessary? What ever happened to versatile horses? I know of so many people who switch disciplines and in turn switch horses. If your horse is young and healthy, he can probably do relatively well in most disciplines, especially in the preliminary stages. I don't see why people need to buy a QH when they want to take a stab at reining when they have a TB, for example who may be more than able. And if the horse isn't good enough to win anything or teach you, THEN consider finding another horse.

Unfortunately the horse industry is a lot like the clothing industry. Trends come and go. TBs used to be in high demand in the hunters and jumpers, but apparently warmbloods do the job better. So many off track TBs who may have had second careers as show horses are ending up these unwanted horses going to slaughter.

Like designer dogs, horses are not fashion. They should not be part of a trend.

I hope I didn't offend anyone who shows -- I'm actually off to show this weekend -- but it's just something that I've noticed in the industry, especially on certain circuits and it really bothers me.

Lise
June 14th, 2008, 07:55 AM
You are right about many show people.They upgrade to a better horse as they move up and forget the horse that brought them there.My daughter events and does some hunter trials.Almost everyone of her freinds have upgraded,she stll has her Happy,maybe they aren't always first,but usually in the ribbons.I'll never forget the Lake of two mountains trials a year ago. Happy lost a shoe at a wall,stopped, Liz didn't,she went head first into it.Happy just stood over her,all techs,her coach,me all went running to see if she was okay.Happy doesn't like people he doesn't know getting too close,but he never moved from Liz he was shaking and freaked out by everything .She was okay,lots of blood from were she wacked her nose,but they still did their gallop at the end of the show.I guess we don't agree on some issues about them,but we do agree on what wonderful,amazing animals they are who do so much for us.

chico2
June 14th, 2008, 08:37 AM
Hoping and waiting for Animal-Cruelty laws to change to favor the animals is almost futile,but we keep fighting for it,maybe one day:fingerscr
As usual this is a problem created by humans,where $$$$ takes precedence over animal-suffering.
In the US banning horse-slaughter,only caused more suffering to these unfortunate animals,transported to Mexico and Canada for the deed:sad:

I have actually eaten horse-meat myself a very long time ago in Sweden,France used to have horse-steaks on their menus,don't know if they still do.:confused:
There is a Dutch store in Burlington that used to sell horse-meat too,although we never bought any.
Slaughter-houses,factory-farms,transports of live-stock HAS to change,whether it concerns horses,cows,pigs,chickens or any animal we kill for food.
As soon as any improvement is suggested,$$$$ stops it in it's track:evil:

MIA
June 14th, 2008, 08:45 AM
If you don't like horse slaughter, don't send your horse there. All horse slaughter is really is a CHOICE for horse owners as a means of disposal, most horses going there are from larger ranchers or breeders. Personally I don't want to end up like the US or have our horses end up in Mexico for slaughter, so until the bleeding hearts come up with a REAL solution besides ban horse slaughter, it needs to stay.

People in Canada eat horse meat, it's not just Europeans, it's meat to many folks.

Why is it that you all scream murder for the horses, but not the cows, pigs and lambs???? NOT all those horses were pets, some horses are even raised for meat these days.

Frenchy
June 14th, 2008, 10:35 AM
Did you know Frenchy that euthanized pets sometimes end up in good old Dog and Cat chow, just how disgusting is that :sad:

Yep , and I heard Iams used to do it too. They were listed under as "ashes" in the indregients and I remember seeing it on their bags. :frustrated:

want4rain
June 14th, 2008, 11:49 AM
i hope you dont feel alone in your slaughter support. i could never eat horse myself but there is no reason why other folks cant. the way i see it, there are far more lives inhumanely treated under the current slaughtering standards for cows than there are for horses. i think folks feel because more horses are kept as companion animals than cows... the numbers still stand, there are far more cows and almost all of them are inhumanely treated than there are horses inhumanely ttreated. no different between the two other than you can ride one and its far more uncomfortable to ride the other... AND there is a rather large religious base who worships cows...

im rambling but i think youre right Glitterless. pigs are way smarter than horses. just not as cute.

-ashley

Frenchy
June 14th, 2008, 11:51 AM
Why is it that you all scream murder for the horses, but not the cows, pigs and lambs????

Because this thread is about horses :rolleyes: and if you read the posts again (which you should) it's not against people eating meat , it's mostly about the way they transport livestocks (in this case : HORSES) to the slaughter house , and the way they are being put down.

Lise
June 14th, 2008, 01:27 PM
Many countries have now banned factory farming,I agree the treatment cows,pigs,chickens receive is barbaric here,but that doesn't excuse what is happening to horses.Relationships between humans and horses is much more of a parthership,so I feel sending your horse to slaughter is a betrayl of the trust this horse has in you.Also the temperament and physique of a horse in my opinion make any large scale slaughtering and transport inhumane.There are people breeding horses specifically for the meat market in Canada,if you close down slaughter houses this will hopefully stop,if people have to pay to dispose of their horses maybe they will think before they breed that mare.As for my own horses when they do not have a good quality of life they will go here with their freinds around them as do my dogs and everyone else including our chickens.The PMU ranches,the racetracks,the showjumpers,the average must take responsability for their horses,pass strong laws and enforce them.If we were talking about dogs would inhumane slaughter and transport even be debated?We even get upset about humanely euthanizing a dog,but people don't even think a horse deserves that.

chico2
June 14th, 2008, 05:07 PM
Lise,I believe every living beeing,deserves to be treated humanely and with compassion,whether they are dogs,horses,sheep or pigs.
I can certainly understand your feelings for suffering horses,just the thought could make me cry,so like million others,I chose not to think about it:sad:and nothing will change.
If people were more aware of the horror going on,maybe some would stand up and scream,but who will listen:frustrated:
Certainly not our Harper government and yes,we are waaaay behind other countries cruelty-laws,I can only speak for Sweden,but I am sure other countries in Europe are doing much better than us.
Except for Spain and their Bull-fighting horror:yell:

MIA
June 14th, 2008, 08:58 PM
Because this thread is about horses :rolleyes: and if you read the posts again (which you should) it's not against people eating meat , it's mostly about the way they transport livestocks (in this case : HORSES) to the slaughter house , and the way they are being put down.

Oh but it's ok to transport cows and pigs that way??? They are all livestock under the same agriculture laws, except recently horses are not allowed to be transported in double deckers as those were built for cattle which are shorter.

Cattle are killed the same way and it's considered humane for them?! The slaughter house shown isn't what most are, most are set up for the animals killed there, so this isn't a prime example of how it really happens in Canada.

Again why isn't anyone screaming for the other animals? And please there is no need to be rude.

Frenchy
June 14th, 2008, 09:05 PM
Again why isn't anyone screaming for the other animals? And please there is no need to be rude.

Again MIA , this thread is about HORSES and for your information , I did open up a thread weeks ago , about inhumane livestock transportation. So take a chill pill will ya !

MIA
June 15th, 2008, 11:32 AM
and I am asking you what is the difference? Why can't you answer that? Canada did change the rules for horse transport so that's been taken care of.

Lise
June 15th, 2008, 12:51 PM
There are so many cruelties involved in the slaughter of any animal.The attitudes are slowly changing about what acceptable and what is not in our treatment of animals.You are right in many ways Mia cruelty is cruelty.I am most involved with horses as far as animals that are slaughtered so that is why I argue on behalf of their rights.There are other groups fighting for the humane treatment of all farm animals who are trying to change the treatment they receive.We are discussing treatment that horses receive and there are many characteristics that make them different from cows or pigs or sheep.We all fix our corner of the world and argue and defend what we know and love.

Frenchy
June 15th, 2008, 01:35 PM
and I am asking you what is the difference? Why can't you answer that? Canada did change the rules for horse transport so that's been taken care of.

IMO, there's no difference. But can't you read english ? For the third time , this thread is about horses !!!

MIA
June 15th, 2008, 04:40 PM
Well I see Lise some what understands what I am saying.... Under agriculture law horses fall under the same laws as the other livestock, frenchy, I am asking you what is the difference between horses, cows, pigs, sheep, chickens etc. Why aren't all of them deserving of people fighting for them? I don't care if you are just talking about horses, personally I am tired of people JUST talking about horses, when other animals are just deserving. I am wondering if you have problems reading english or simply chose not to care about the other animals that are slaughtered daily.

Lise just so you know I have worked and owned horses and other farm animals since I was a kid, they are no different and ALL deserve proper treatment IMO regardless of what they are used for and personally I am really tired of the bleeding hearts over horses as nobody stands up for the others and they are just as deserving. Horses have been food for many cultures for many years, if you don't like it don't sell your horse for meat, I haven't ever sold one of mine for meat and never would but it's up to the owners of the animals to ensure they don't head to the slaughter house.

ALL animals deserve to be treated humanely period.

chico2
June 15th, 2008, 04:58 PM
Mia,we are all animal-lovers here,no matter what the animal,pigs are no less intelligent than a dog and I don't know much about cows or sheep,I do agree with you on all points,but this Post was about horses specifically.
We humans supposedly of higher intellect,have no right to cause any animal,undue pain and suffering,no matter what it is.
I had no idea what was going on with horses,no idea they are beeing slaughtered for meat and the US thought they were doing a good deed banning the slaughter of horses,only to turn around and cause them even more suffering in long-distance transport:sad:.
The whole business is sad and cruel,we can all agree on that,so Mia there is no reason to argue your point,we all feel the same way.

LL1
June 15th, 2008, 05:56 PM
I agree with you MIA,I think many people eat other farm animals and think of horses differently.It seems they are looking at banning the shipment of horses for slaughter? (Looks like an old page,perhaps it did not pass?)

"The passage of The American Horse Slaughter Prevention Act will prohibit the slaughter of horses for human consumption, as well as the trade and transport of horseflesh and live horses intended for human consumption. This legislation will terminate any legal option for sending American horses to slaughter within the United States and over the border as well."


http://www.hsus.org/legislation_laws/citizen_lobbyist_center/help_end_horse_slaughter.html

Frenchy
June 15th, 2008, 06:07 PM
I did open up a thread weeks ago , about inhumane livestock transportation.

I am wondering if you have problems reading english or simply chose not to care about the other animals that are slaughtered daily.



Your eyes are close or what ? :wall:

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=49755

MIA
June 16th, 2008, 12:08 AM
LOL February is weeks ago? Frenchy not sure why you feel the need to be so rude or why someone can't bring up another point. I see there is no point in trying to speak with you. Slaughter is here to stay folks and for all of you with dogs and cats well, they need to eat too so think about the big picture when you start screaming an end to slaughter.

Lise
June 16th, 2008, 09:33 AM
Horses fall between livestock and companion animal legally so they are currently not receiving the same protections as farm animals or companion.Also having been around livestock all of my life I agree all deserve a decent life and death.The rescue I help with not only is involved with horses cruelty,but all animals.There are pigs from factory farms,dairy cast offs,chickens from batteries,all are well cared for and given a chance at life.

Purpledomino
June 16th, 2008, 02:31 PM
I don't think anyone is arguing the point that ALL animals deserve respect in regards to the ways that they are raised, treated and slaughtered. Valuing one life's worth over the next may be ridiculous, but it all comes down to the fact that horses are generally COMPANION animals. Yes they are bigger than dogs or cats, yes they live outside...but they are treated and revered quite differently than livestock. They have a historic place in society, they are our athletic partners and money earners, they are unique in the fact that they work for us willingly and the trust they have built is entirely dependant on how they have been treated. The process of slaughtering them in the manner that they are, and the road they take to this end is the ultimate betrayal to the horse. If this brands me a "bleeding heart", than so be it.

I find it illogical how horses are lumped into the livestock category, when we form such very close relationships with them, much like we do with our household pets. We would never think of "slaughtering" a housepet in the way a horse is, although they are essentially a companion animal all the same. Asian countries have been known to eat dog and cat flesh, so why is it unheard of for us to slaughter these animals for meat and send them overseas? Certainly there are millions of homeless and unwanted dogs and cats....a surplus. Possibly, if we did this....there wouldn't be as many neglect cases, or dumped and abandoned dogs and cats. Maybe it would make some room for the rescues and the humane societies? A crazy idea.....right?

If horses can be treated and slaughtered the same as livestock, then why can't dogs or cats? What is the difference when all lives are valued the same? It is a reality that we are going to be empathetic to the animals which we grow emotional attachments with. Until we have the same relationships with cows and sheep that we do with horses and dogs, there is a difference and we should value them as such. :2cents:

glitterless
June 17th, 2008, 10:15 PM
Thanks for posting those pics, Lise. Happy is lovely :) I'll try to catch up on this thread in the next day or so. The show on the weekend went well, but I'm way behind in everything else!

Lise
June 20th, 2008, 09:08 AM
Interesting web site for the anti slaughter group.www.defendhorsescanada.org

Purpledomino
June 20th, 2008, 12:06 PM
Interesting web site for the anti slaughter group.www.defendhorsescanada.org


I posted this site on the first page of this thread, considering the views I've read that support the slaughter of horses in this thread...unfortunately I doubt that anyone took the time to look at this. It is very informative though, and answers alot of questions.

Dingo
June 20th, 2008, 01:18 PM
Issues with the way these particular horses are apparently being treated aside, I don't see a big difference between eating horses and eating other animals.

Lise
June 21st, 2008, 08:35 AM
Personally I don't eat any meat,but that is my choice.A horse is a companion animal,they have served man in a relationship built on trust,that is in more ways similar to a dog than most livestock.Betraying that relationship by sending them to slaughter or in feedlots to end their days in fear is inhumane.There will always be people who believe we must use every once of an animal including their flesh once their living bodies are no longer useful to us.I for one hope that our society will someday evolve enough to realize this is wrong.This is about horses,if you look at the pictures of them all over this site you should realize the special relationships they have with their people and eating them is on par with eating your dog.We find alternatives to high kill shelters there are alternatives to slaughter.

katherine93
June 21st, 2008, 09:16 AM
I agree 100% with Lise on this one

Dingo
June 21st, 2008, 12:04 PM
Plenty of people eat dogs. Plenty of people eat horses. For that matter, there are fairly few four-footed animals that people don't eat. I just don't see the difference. Just because one species is considered a companion animal in some cultures doesn't make it any less humane to slaughter them for food than any other species.

onster
June 21st, 2008, 01:35 PM
I dont eat horses (actually its against my religion to eat horse, donkey, lizards, mice and other rodents or any form of carnivore- so no cats dogs or anything like that) BUT that being said its against my religion to eat pig too and I dont mind that other people eat it, to each his own.

As long as the animal is treated humanely I dont see any reason why they cant be used for meat. As want4rain said, cows are considered sacred in a major religion and they would be absolutely disguisted and horrified at our slaughter of them. I know this this thread is about horses frenchy but sometimes u cant just look at one thing, u have to look at the bigger picture. We can't be hypocrites...

glitterless
June 22nd, 2008, 06:29 AM
It doesn't matter whether this thread was about horses or chickens. We're talking about eating horses and some people are saying that it's wrong because they are our companions and friends.

Well, they are, but I've also had a turkey who I loved dearly and who I thought was very intelligent.

Everyone's different. I know some people who can raise Fluffy the lamb in the kitchen and then eat her for dinner one day. I can't do that. I do live on a farm and eat beef, chicken, and turkey from the farm, but there are certain animals I would never eat. My turkey, Tom, for example was one that I could never eat. He died on the farm and was buried like my other pets are. We've had other chickens and cattle who are more pets than anything else and would never be a meal either. Most of them are still producing something -- eggs or calves -- and are earning their keep, but we've also had animals on here...even cattle which are just as expensive to feed as a horse, who give us nothing more than friendship.

I couldn't eat a horse...but it really is no different than eating any other animal. I think that if you do eat meat, but find it wrong to eat horse meat, you're in need of a reality check. It's not about intelligence, it's about the bond that you have with an animal. I'm surprised that this board of cat and dog lovers can honestly think that a cow or chicken is lower on the totem pole than a horse. They all have personalities, can make great pets, and deserve a humane life whether they're a pet or a food supply.

I think too many people see the cows grazing in the fields as something different from what is on their dinner plate. Cattle can be ridden, too. They've ploughed fields, pulled wagons, and helped build this country as much or more than the horse has. Yes, we think of horses as noble, magnificent creatures, but cattle are not any less intelligent or deserving of a humane life.

One of the problems here is the fact that we do look at everything independently. We see our dogs and cats differently than we see our horses. Then we see horses differently than cattle and other livestock. All animals, whether or not they are million dollar race horses, a pet dog or cat, or a steer being raised for meat need to be treated humanely throughout their lives. We'll never get any where if we keep grouping animals into categories, trying to decide which one is too intelligent to eat.

chico2
June 22nd, 2008, 08:22 AM
Glitterless,very well said.
The other day while driving,I had a semi-truck in front of me,it was packed top to bottom with red milkcrates tightly packed with chickens.
I quickly passed,having a sick feeling,I felt like pulling over to the side and vomit.
Yes,chickens,pigs,cows and all living,breathing creatures feel pain and terror,it has to change..
But how,when in our capitalist society $$$$ take precedent over the suffering of our animals,can we demand a change??
If enough people yelled out loud about the treatment of horses and our government took notice,maybe we could get the ball rolling,to extend to all animals.
As long as we have animals trapped in pens in factory farms,stock-yards and other inhumane facilities,then add on the Seal-Hunt,Canada as a country has a not very favorable reputation in the world anymore.
Others are making changes,why can't we??? $$$$ is what it's all about:sad:

Lise
June 22nd, 2008, 08:26 AM
How about not eating any of them?The arguments you are saying justify horse slaughter are very similar to those put forward by many vegetarians,that we can not group animals and decide who to eat and who not to.I agree that many people who only have daily contact with cats and dogs tend to group them differently than livestock,that is the only way factory farms and slaughter houses exist because most people don't think of their steak as a living being capable of the same emotions as us.It is easier to argue for an end to horse slaughter because average people have more empathy for a horse than a cow or a pig,deserved or not.In the end though no other living being deserves to be raised solely to die to provide us with an unecessary luxury product.

Dingo
June 23rd, 2008, 12:49 AM
I don't have a moral issue with meat-eating per se, although I think there are convincing arguments in favour of at least reducing our consumption, and I do want animals that are raised for food to be treated and slaughtered humanely. I don't eat veal, for example. But again, I see no particular reason to ban the eating of horses so long as we're still eating other animals. It's not as if they're endangered.

Sabine
June 23rd, 2008, 06:21 AM
I am not a vegetarian but having been around horses for over 40 years made me a true horse lover and I look at them as my companions rather than meat sources. I couldn't bring myself to eat dogs either - why horses ? As far as farm animals go: I do eat meat occasionally and only from animals that once had a name, a pasture and a were well taken care of until their demise. ;)

glitterless
June 26th, 2008, 05:21 AM
Well, I know this will sound odd coming from the daughter of a beef farmer, but I really think that the world, North America especially, needs to reduce its consumption of meat. We know a lot of red meat isn't good for us, nor is a diet rich in any animal products, like dairy and eggs. Everything in moderation, right? And in North America we tend not to be moderate about anything. Most people probably have at least one serving of meat per day and I think that's unnecessary, especially when a portion to the average person is more like 2 or 3 of the recommended portions.

I'm trying to be more environmentally conscious and I've been reading that we are using outrageous amounts of water for raising animals and growing crops. Unfortunately we do everything on a grand scale here and most of our food comes from factories rather than farms. I can't even begin to comprehend the amount of grain that must go into some of the beef that we buy in the store.

I personally don't think that a lot of physical protesting and petitioning does much good. Our government unfortunately looks at dollars and not at us average people trying to make a statement. I do believe that we can make a difference, but corporations with money and their own agendas are more likely to influence the government than us.

Instead of petitioning, reduce your consumption of meat. What you do buy, buy locally from a farmer in your area. Know what goes into your food and know the people who produce it.

I live in a rural area where it's become almost impossible for farmers to have their cattle slaughtered locally. The options are 1 abattoir that is soon going out of business or shipping to a larger slaughterhouse and not getting back your own beef. Legally, you can only slaughter one head of cattle per year for your family's own consumption. The shortage of proper slaughtering facilities is, in my opinion, very detrimental to this cause because that means that more animals are making that much longer unnecessary trek to a slaughterhouse many hours away. It would be much kinder to the animal and more affordable to the farmer to have local abbatoirs for this purpose. I think we need to see some more government funding for farmers.

Lise, I don't know that food is a luxury. I used to feel the same way as you, but now I see us eating animals as part of the food chain. It seems natural and in most cases we probably give our food a more humane end than a carnivore in the wild. But I dont' really know where I stand on this...I totally respect your opinion and agree with it in many ways.

I was talking to my dad one day about a heifer with a broken leg. I don't remember the conversation exactly, but I know I asked him whether or not he thought she understood what was going on. He told me that he doesn't like to think of those things because it makes his job too difficult. I think many of us would be vegetarians (especially anyone who's an animal lover) if we took into consideration the emotions that animals feel and the fact that they reason. That's something I won't argue...I stand firm on that. I've seen enough that I honestly believe that animals do have the ability to reason. It would probably be much more difficult to eat a hamburger if you knew that the cow you were eating had actually enjoyed the feeling of the warm sun on her back the day before she was slaughtered. I don't think that animals merely exist and live by routine; I think they act and feel in ways that we do, just on a different level.

I try to be very matter of fact about the farm and what I eat. Death and birth and illnesses are dinner table subjects at home. But sometimes I'll think a bit too much and get emotional. I can assure you guys that regardless of what I say on here, there is no way I could stand by in a slaughterhouse and watch horses be processed for meat. I could stand by and see a sick or injured horse euthanized, but the fact that someone is going to eat them is different. I just see a need for it and I'm afraid of the alternatives for the horses.

Dingo, I've never had veal either. But I've learned a little bit about milk fed veal and I'm on the fence now. Is a young animal's life really more precious than an older animal? Either way, I've lived this long without eating it and don't really have any ambition to try it...it was just something that I've been thinking about.

chico2
June 26th, 2008, 08:36 AM
Glitterless,your post is very well written,well thought out in a very intelligent way and I agree with all you have to say.:thumbs up
My husband and I eat very little red meat,but I still love a thick bbq sirloin-steak,ever now and then.
I am often bothered by the fact,that the chicken or beef,pork I am preparing was once a living animal,but still not enough to go vegetarian.
I is not so much because they are killed for us to eat,but mostly because of the inhumane treatment in transport and the industrial way they are killed.
Then there are the factory-farms,where no animal gets to feel the sun on their backs:sad:
I would surely buy from local farmers,if I knew of any and support them in any way.

Sabine
June 26th, 2008, 10:04 AM
Glitterless - there's nothing more to add to your post. You've said it all ! :thumbs up

I buy my meat every Saturday at the Farmer's Market. It's organic and I even know the Farm it comes from. :) The cows all live a good life and are pasture fed.

Dingo
June 26th, 2008, 01:05 PM
Dingo, I've never had veal either. But I've learned a little bit about milk fed veal and I'm on the fence now. Is a young animal's life really more precious than an older animal?

Oh I've had veal, and it's deeeelishous. But it just seems like the methods used to produce it are a little more cruel than those used to produce other types of meat.

Lise
June 26th, 2008, 04:34 PM
I don't think food is a luxury,but meat is.I grew up on a dairy farm and my father is a dairy technologist,I also live in a rural area and pretty much all of my friends are involved with livestock in some way.I feel that we can no longer afford the luxury of our western diet either morally or enviromentally.I decided a long time ago that if I could not cause an animals death I had no right to consume it.I understand the mentality behind agriculture,having lived with it my whole life,but I really feel it is wrong in so many ways.No animals life is worth than anothers.

Lise
June 26th, 2008, 04:51 PM
Having said that,I do still agree with Glitterless on many points.I agree nothing should suffer a long tortuous death either by abandonment,injury or disease ,but euthanize not slaughter.I did take into consideration the fact that animals feel so I don't eat them.What's wrong with thinking about the fact animals have emotions?It's very hard to enjoy chicken after you've watched chickens spend hours enjoying dust baths and sun ,enjoy veal when you know that dairy cattle spend days calling for their calves,see two cows that are always together or to get back to horses watch one horse have a fit when his friend goes to a show,but not care if you take another member of his herd.How can we justify deciding to end a perfectly healthy happy animals life just because we want a steak or veal.

Dingo
June 26th, 2008, 05:01 PM
No animals life is worth than anothers.

Do you feed your pets a vegetarian diet?

Sabine
June 26th, 2008, 05:14 PM
dogs are carnivores and can not exist on a vegetarian diet - despite popular belief of some vegans. (No pun intended) ;) I know a lot of vegetarians who feed their dogs and cats a species appropriate diet. Could you picture a cat on veggies ? It would die ! :confused:

MIA
June 26th, 2008, 06:27 PM
dogs are carnivores and can not exist on a vegetarian diet - despite popular belief of some vegans. (No pun intended) ;) I know a lot of vegetarians who feed their dogs and cats a species appropriate diet. Could you picture a cat on veggies ? It would die ! :confused:

Actually dogs CAN be vegetarians and I know quite a few people that have healthy vegetarian dogs, there are even commercially made vegetarian diets now for dogs. Cats no they can't do it they are total carnivors.

Sabine
June 26th, 2008, 06:34 PM
This is now totally :offtopic:, but here it goes. (My apologies to the resident moderator.:sorry: )

The nutritional requirements for dogs and cats are very different from those for humans. Thus, a vegetarian diet perfectly suitable in meeting a personís nutrient needs may be grossly deficient where dogs or cats are concerned. It is possible, but very difficult, to develop such diets for dogs and cats. The Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO), in cooperation with CVM, has developed the AAFCO Dog and Cat Food Nutrient Profiles, which details the known nutritional requirements for these species. Formulating a pet food to meet all these requirements is not a simple task in any case, but becomes extremely difficult when using only ingredients that would meet the definition of a vegetarian diet (especially a vegan diet).

For example, the protein and calcium needs of the dog and cat are much higher than those for humans. These nutrients are most easily provided through animal-derived ingredients. Some plants, such as soy, are high in protein, but the amino acids within the protein are not as balanced as they are for most animal-source ingredients. Dogs and cats also need a dietary source of vitamin B12, a substance not found in most plants. All animals "need" this vitamin, but plant-eating animals such as cattle and sheep can make their own through the action of bacteria in their gastrointestinal tracts, provided there are adequate amounts of the mineral cobalt in the diet (which is found in plants). As mentioned above, the cat has even more unique nutritional requirements that make it harder to get adequate amounts of all required nutrients in the diet without using some animal-source ingredients.

Canít these nutrients be replaced using synthetic substitutes? Yes, it is theoretically possible to formulate a diet that meets all these specific needs using synthetic additives. However, it becomes more expensive and far less reliable to do it this way. Even when a product is formulated to meet the nutritional needs "on paper," it may not work in the "real" world. For example, plants also contain phytates, substances that bind calcium and trace minerals, lowering their "bioavailability." So, even when minerals are provided at levels that appear adequate, they cannot be properly absorbed and used by the animal. There are adjustments in the AAFCO Dog and Cat Food Nutrient Profiles to account for decreases in bioavailability of nutrients, but these are made on the assumption that both animal and plant-source ingredients are used. It is impossible to tell whether these levels would still be adequate for a completely plant-based diet.

Finally, even the most carefully formulated diet with respect to providing adequate amounts of all essential nutrients is worthless if the dog or cat does not eat it. While dogs certainly enjoy the occasional snack such as a cookie or piece of fruit and cats will chew on grass and other plants, foods without some animal-source ingredients may not be very palatable, so asking dogs and cats to eat only plant-based foods may not be possible in some cases. Even if the cat or dog does eat the vegetarian diet, it still may not be eating enough to meet its nutritional needs.

source (http://www.dognutrition.com/vegetarian-diet-for-dogs.html)

Lise
June 26th, 2008, 07:07 PM
This is totally off topic.Dogs and cats should be fed a species appropriate diet.They need meat we don't, animals that need meat are built to capture and dispatch their prey quickly with little or no suffering to avoid injury.Humans are really well designed for a mainly vegetarian diet with protein easily digested from non animal sources.Also my dogs and cats do not have moral issues with killing things and eating them ,I do.They are also unaware of the amount of grain etc needed to produce what they eat.Anyway people tend to get too upset when you start questioning the ethics of meat eating. We're talking about horses,which I hope most people don't think should be bred and raised as a meat source,the main argument between horse people is what to do with the surplus animals that are unsuitable as riding horses or unwanted.If you eat meat your choice,but I'm trying to help keep horses from sharing the fate of other livestock.It's easier to stop something while enough people still are upset that it is happening.

Dingo
June 26th, 2008, 07:30 PM
The reason I asked that question is because, in the context of meat-eating, you wrote "no animal's life is worth than another's." Well that's all well and good, and so based on that you've decided not to eat meat. Fair enough. But that being the case, how can you justify the killing of other animals to feed the animals you keep as pets? Surely the answer would be to keep non-carnivorous pets?

And to take it a little further, as long as animals are being killed to feed your pets, why only bovines, ovines and fishes? Why not horses as well? What makes horses particularly exempt from being used for food?

MIA
June 26th, 2008, 07:34 PM
Thank you Dingo I feel the same way!!!! I have a lady on another board that can't understand how the heck I can eat meat, yet it's ok to feed her animals but I am a murder? Well if my dogs can eat it, so can I. I don't eat hoards of it probably less than my dogs!!!!

Here's a great site for vegetarian dogs: http://www.vegetariandogs.com/

Lise
June 26th, 2008, 08:28 PM
One animal eating another is one thing.Generally animals don't have issues with killing eachother.Living in a rural area,my cats will kill and eat any small animal that gets in the house.Cats need meat,my dogs are on vegetarian diet now,because they have food allergies to most protein sources.I don't think people who eat meat are murderers,but I do think if so many people say they feel guilty eating it there must be reason.My husband eats meat and we've agreed to not pressure our kids to go either way,but only to answer their questions honestly.My oldest eats no meat and my youngest eats only fish.It's hard for them to eat animals they are growing up surrounded by with the knowledge that these animals feel the same things we do.Out of all of our pets we only have two non vegetarian cats and yes I don't like the fact they eat meat,but I won't cause them to suffer for my ideals even if that does make me a hippocrite.For anyone interested in a fantastic book on the relationship we have with many animals read Dominion by Mathew Scully,it's really well written and really shows how we are using not only our domestic animals but also wildlife.

MyBirdIsEvil
June 26th, 2008, 11:05 PM
I just wanted to drop by and say that I agree with everything Glitterless said.

I was about to jump into the topic and rant then I realized everything I wanted to say had already been said. :)

Banning slaughterhouses doesn't help the horses that were destined for such a facility. The cruelty will still exist, just in other ways. I think the best way would be to strictly oversee the slaughter industry, then the horses may at least have a better end than standing in a field starving to death.

I really wish there was a way to regulate the breeding of so many horses (people I know are still breeding when hay is extremely high and there is not even any buyers in many cases :frustrated:), but who would do it? How would those kind of regulations get put into place? At least there is already a good idea of how to regulate the slaughter industry, but there's absolutely no possible way to regulate and oversee horse ownership and breeding in general, it's just not possible.:shrug:
There has to be a change in mentality of owners and breeders in general and that doesn't seem to be happening soon enough.

I know many people disagree and I respect that, but I just figured I'd throw my 2 cents in.

Etown_Chick
June 28th, 2008, 11:44 PM
It baffles me that we see horses as pets, so therefore it's cruel and evil to eat them. Sorry I am just not getting that. I think cows are cute but have no problem tossing on the barbie.
Same with chickens.
Horse meat is sold in Europe, and likely other places. People like it.
I wouldn't eat it, would find it a little freaky.
I'd be more concerned about the treatment of the animals while they are alive, whether they are cows, horses, ducks, whatever.

Your protein source is going to offend someone, somehwere, too, remember that.

Lise
June 29th, 2008, 08:16 AM
very few people get upset about my chick pea,lentil,soy etc protein sources

Sabine
June 29th, 2008, 09:31 AM
I'd be more concerned about the treatment of the animals while they are alive, whether they are cows, horses, ducks, whatever.



That's exactly the point ! If people would pay a little bit more attention and money where their meats come from, it wouldn't really matter what kind of meat it is. I personally eat very little meat and if I do it's organic and comes from "happy cows". Also, I do not eat baby animals or horses - but that's just me. ;)

Etown_Chick
June 30th, 2008, 02:05 AM
Lise,
I would - lentils? Eww..lol

poodletalk
June 30th, 2008, 07:41 AM
Lise, I personally know the rescue group that you help, Rose is absolutely amazing and she's having a booth at our annual dogwak. Rose also helped us with couple of horse seizures take a look. http://www.spcamonteregie.com/seizures.html

The treatment of all animals before and at the slaughterhouse is disgusting and extremely inhumane. Most people won't stop eating meat, therefore we should have better laws and ethics in place for the treatment of farm animals at the farm and slaughterhouse.

I know horse meat is very popular in Europe and in Asia, I would NEVER eat it for many ethical reasons just like I wouldn't eat my dog or cat. (Nor do I eat cows, pigs etc)

Treatment of animals is a big issue with me, it infuriates me most of the horses have worked all their lives at schools, farms, etc and at their end of their life they get shoved in a truck with many other horses with no food water for days and slaughtered in such a cruel way. Until better practices are in place, NO I don't believe horses should be used for slaughter!

Lise
June 30th, 2008, 11:52 AM
Organic meat does not mean the animal was treated humanely,it just means that the animal was not given hormones,antibiotics etc and that the feed was also free of chemicals other than that same treatment as any other livestock.There is now a group of farmers in Europe that are certifying humane meat,better than anything here.This means the animal is given a quality of life that is according to it's species,it's emotional as well as physical needs are met and it is given a humane death.Obviously it is a very expensive way of rearing animals,but if you must eat them they you should have to support these kind of farmers.

Dingo
June 30th, 2008, 01:19 PM
Lise, I know you realize that your ideals are contradictory, which means you're doing better than a lot of people, but surely you also realize that by supporting the pet food industry you're supporting the very system you claim to abhor?

Lise
June 30th, 2008, 03:28 PM
Actually I don't really support the pet food industry.My dogs are on a mainly vegetarian diet,occasionally supplemented with eggs from our guineas and our cats do not eat a commercial food.I know many strict vegans who feed their cats and dogs animal protein,I know it's hippocritical but reality is cats need meat protein.Anyway if you read my previous post I was also saying if you must eat meat maybe ethically produced would be an acceptable way of raising it.I'm not saying you are an evil person to eat meat,but until there is some form of control about how these animals live and die maybe there is a lot people should feel guilty about when they but the cheap chicken or pork or beef.

MIA
June 30th, 2008, 03:36 PM
Treatment of animals is a big issue with me, it infuriates me most of the horses have worked all their lives at schools, farms, etc and at their end of their life they get shoved in a truck with many other horses with no food water for days and slaughtered in such a cruel way. Until better practices are in place, NO I don't believe horses should be used for slaughter!

and what about the others?? FYI not all horses that head to slaughter are old, in fact they don't really want the old ones, middle aged horses are more desired for meat.

Cows spend their lives wandering and eating, then get shoved in a truck (to use your words)... Same for pigs etc... Why is it ok for them? Why is it ok for a rancher to choose to have his cows slaughtered and not his horses? Really it's his choice, not yours. If I choose to raise and eat cows you wouldn't care, if I chose to raise and eat horse you would, but why? Really think about that.

poodletalk
June 30th, 2008, 03:47 PM
This is a thread about horses, I kept it with horses. I don't agree with any of it, I find the whole situation very upsetting.

I can't stand seeing the trucks with cows in it. I also, don't agree with lambs being sent alive by boat to the Middle East from Australia.

Like I said in my previous post, I don't think eating meat will ever stop, but proper laws at farms and slaughter houses is a MUST!

Lise
July 3rd, 2008, 08:54 AM
If you would like more info on how stopping horse slaughter in the states has effected abandonment and neglect cases go to www.animalallawcoalition.com
The argument is that it will go up is proving wrong,the main cruelty issues seem to be the treatment horses are getting when they are being shipped to Canada and Mexico to slaughter.

clm
July 3rd, 2008, 11:09 AM
I have no issues with horses being raised for meat. No different to me than a cow or a pig or a chicken or rabbit. I believe all of these animals have a right to be treated as humanely as possible if being raised for such purposes and the slaughtering of these animals needs to be as humane as possible too as do farm raised fish.

Do I eat meat, yes. Have never even considered being a vegetarian. I enjoy beef, pork, chicken, venison, rabbit, duck, lamb and turkey. I was raised eating meat at every meal and I really do like it. Would I eat horse meat, I honestly don't know. I've never had the option, but I think I might be willing to try it. Horses are beautiful animals, so are cows, so are pigs, chickens and turkeys. Bunnies and lambs are adorable, but I still don't see anything wrong with eating these animals.
Lots of problems with MAD cow came to light after feeding these animals with meat protien, obviously a poor idea to feed a herbivore meat. Likewise, I think your asking for trouble trying to feed a carnivore or omnivore no meat.
It's not as nature intended, so asking for trouble IMO.
As for eating cats and dogs, that whole SARs outbreak from a few years ago shows the problems with eating carnivores, I believe civit cats were shown to have been the main source.....should not be done IMO, but the countries where it is done, animals are not treated humanely to begin with and almost every animal, bird, reptile or insect is fair game to them.
Anyway, that's my 2cents worth on the subject.

Cindy

Lise
July 3rd, 2008, 04:06 PM
We are not only talking about horses being raised for meat,we are also talking about horses that were companion animals being sent to slaughter.This is more like shipping your dog off when he's to old or infirm to be any more use to you.Another source for the meat industry is still to some extent the pmu foals,does anyone really think that is humane the treatment those mares are given?If we were talking about shooting every unwanted or neglected dog people would be outraged.Why is rescue and rehabilition a good option for a dog,but not a horse?Why is it okay to ship your horse to slaughter or sell them with no consideration as to their fate after they're sold ? If we were talking about dogs I doubt many people would agree these things are acceptable,well horses don't deserve better,but they definately warrant the same treatment as all of our other companion animals.A good life and a decent humane end when there is no good quality of life,not when their usefullness ends.

chico2
July 3rd, 2008, 04:35 PM
Lise,I would hope,if someone really loves their horse,the horses life would not end at a slaughter-house:pray:
Only a while back,I was to ignorant to even know horses were slaughtered for meat,although horse-meat is consumed both in Sweden and France.
The gist of the matter is and always has been,the horrific conditions and inhumane way of transport,no matter what animal we are talking about.
Lise,I know you have horses,they are such stunningly beautiful animals and in my view a horse is different from a cow or a pig,but they all deserve to be treated humanely on their last journey,

Purpledomino
July 3rd, 2008, 06:52 PM
We are not only talking about horses being raised for meat,we are also talking about horses that were companion animals being sent to slaughter.This is more like shipping your dog off when he's to old or infirm to be any more use to you.Another source for the meat industry is still to some extent the pmu foals,does anyone really think that is humane the treatment those mares are given?If we were talking about shooting every unwanted or neglected dog people would be outraged.Why is rescue and rehabilition a good option for a dog,but not a horse?Why is it okay to ship your horse to slaughter or sell them with no consideration as to their fate after they're sold ? If we were talking about dogs I doubt many people would agree these things are acceptable,well horses don't deserve better,but they definately warrant the same treatment as all of our other companion animals.A good life and a decent humane end when there is no good quality of life,not when their usefullness ends.

Very well said Lise. I keep reading the posts on this thread, and no-one seems to really "get" the concept that horses are companion animals such as dogs or cats, and should be treated as such. I'm pretty sure that if our dogs or cats were afforded the same treatment and slaughter that our horses presently do...........you get the picture. It makes me sad to think that some people can put so little value in the emotional connection that horses have with us. How much they try for us, trust us, work for us as partners.

Especially...I don't understand how so called "horse people" can dispose of their animals as such, and in the same breath proclaim their love of the horse. Sounds like backstabbing to me.....a cruel betrayal. :sad:

LL1
July 3rd, 2008, 07:11 PM
I dont see a difference between eating a horse,cow,chicken,pig or dog or cat. It doesnt matter if you think of them as companions,we have plenty of companion animals being gassed,shot,never mind the livestock being treated inhumanely for the people that want to eat them, wear them etc.

Admirable fight but doubt you will get people to care enough to help while they scream that they love animals as they eat their steaks.

Lise
July 4th, 2008, 07:10 AM
There is no difference in the treatment all animals deserve.People can make a difference,I think if more people become aware of cruelties inflicted on all animals they want it to change and maybe they will get involved in trying to change things.Anyway many of us have kids and they are,hopefully,being brought up to regard animals as something more than unfeeling beings that we can treat however we please.If we can't fix things in our generation,maybe the next one can.

Dingo
July 4th, 2008, 01:38 PM
no-one seems to really "get" the concept that horses are companion animals such as dogs or cats, and should be treated as such.

Can we please get a grip? There is no one "class" of animals that is more or less appropriate to eat. There is no difference between eating cow meat, dog meat, chicken meat, horse meat and pig meat. It all comes from an animal, most of which can engage in some kind of relationship with humans. Even meat from alligators and other predators that typically don't ... get along with people is no different. Meat is meat is meat.

And if anything, horses are less of a companion animal than dogs or cats, because more of them have been and continue to be used for work: carrying people, hauling loads, powering machinery, and so on. And most of them don't live in our houses either.

Lise
July 4th, 2008, 04:49 PM
If all animals are is meat,why are so many of us involved in trying to help them?By your logic dog rescues,cat rescues seem to be a waste of time,if there really is no difference between companion animals and livestock.Horses are becoming more of companion animals than ever before.The Refuge places many horses that are no longer sound for riding,but can still live many more years as companions.Out of our herd we have two who are no longer sound either due to injury or old age.I regard our horses in the same way I regard our dogs,chickens,guineas,cats and every other animal here,as companions not protein.If more people actually had contact with the animals they casually dismiss as livestock maybe there would be less inclined to say they are nothing more than meat.

chico2
July 4th, 2008, 05:07 PM
Dingo,I disagree,there are huge differences,but that does not mean cows,pigs and chickens should not be treated humanely,in transport and slaughter,the pain is the same,no matter what the animal.
I would never in a million years look at a horse,dog or cat and think meat and if I had a horse,he would be my friend,my companion the same as my dog/cat.

I

Schwinn
July 4th, 2008, 06:44 PM
I feel like some people are arguing on the same side for different reasons, but here's my take.

I don't have a problem with horses being used for meat. Being interested in bodybuilding, I've studied many, many different diets, including vegetarianism, and it is my opinion that eating meat is part of a healthy, normal diet. Being someone who eats cows and chicken (and at one time, moose), it'd be hypocritcal for me to condemn anyone for eating horse (or dog or cat, for that matter). Personally, I'd find it repulsive given my relationship with those animals (or maybe, in the case of dog, it'd be because I've seen Daisy eat the "tootsie rolls" left behind by the neighbourhood stray cat:yuck: ) That being said, even if I do place horses on the same level as livestock, it's because I want to see all animals treated as humanely as possible, which is why I no longer eat veal.

And I don't think it's fair to say that "we'd be up in arms if it were dogs or cats", because millions of dogs and cats are put down every day. Now, I do have a problem with people who do it because "they no longer have a use for them", but it's the individual who discards them, not the act that I take issue with.

That being said, I haven't seen the documentary. If it's the question of having horses put down for meat or otherwise, no, I don't have a big problem with it (I also wonder if the word "slaughter" is being used for effect.) If it's a question about the method being used, then yes, I may have a problem with that. We're the top of the food chain, but it doesn't mean we have to act like cave men.

Dingo
July 4th, 2008, 07:40 PM
If all animals are is meat,why are so many of us involved in trying to help them?By your logic dog rescues,cat rescues seem to be a waste of time,if there really is no difference between companion animals and livestock.

That's not what I said. What I said was that there's no moral difference between meat from one species and meat from another. The fact that some people keep some species as companions doesn't make it morally wrong for other people to eat those same species.

That's not to say that every animal raised for meat shouldn't be treated humanely: of course they should. But I think it's particularly hypocritical (not to mention just plain stupid and ignorant) to condemn the slaughtering of horses for meat if you eat any kind of meat. And I also think it's hypocritical and ignorant to keep companion animals that are meat-eaters (and to feed them a species-appropriate diet--which of course you should) if you condemn the slaughter of animals for food.

Unless you live in the outback somewhere and your dogs catch their own wild meat, I suppose.

Lise
July 5th, 2008, 07:48 AM
There is a difference between how unwanted dogs and cats are humanely euthanized,I believe horses deserve the same consideration a humane end.Slaughter is not carried out by people who care about giving a horse a fast and painless end,a slaughter house is not designed to minimize stress on the animal.I'm sorry you feel it is stupid and ignorant to want to protect an animal that has served man as companion for thousands of years,very few animals other than the dog have had such a close relationship through hundreds of cultures and have had such an impact on our and many other cultures.There is a moral difference and I've said before yes I agree it is somewhat hypocritical to condemn the slaughter of animals for food and keep meat eaters as pets,but they eat meat as a neccessity,I choose not to eat meat myself because it is a product that causes immense suffering to an animal and is no neccessary to my well being or survival.

Dingo
July 5th, 2008, 12:51 PM
I'm sorry you feel it is stupid and ignorant to want to protect an animal that has served man as companion for thousands of years,very few animals other than the dog have had such a close relationship through hundreds of cultures and have had such an impact on our and many other cultures.

Once again, that's not even close to what I said. I've stated repeatedly that all animals--even, or perhaps especially, those used for meat--deserve to be treated humanely.

There is a moral difference and I've said before yes I agree it is somewhat hypocritical to condemn the slaughter of animals for food and keep meat eaters as pets,but they eat meat as a neccessity,I choose not to eat meat myself because it is a product that causes immense suffering to an animal and is no neccessary to my well being or survival.

Frankly, I find your claim that there's a moral difference between eating so-called companion animals and so-called food animals bizarre. And certainly it isn't "necessary" to keep meat-eating pets. In fact, your entire argument strikes me as rather selfish: because certain animals are useful to you (emotionally, culturally, whatever) you're willing to contribute to the deaths of other animals to feed your pets, even though you personally condemn the use of animals for food. It doesn't make sense, and it strikes me as culturally insensitive too: plenty of people see animals like horses and even dogs as livestock akin to cows and other food animals. As long as they treat them humanely, who are we to say they shouldn't eat them?

Look, I'm not trying to be rude, but I am getting a little tired of my words being twisted. I'm fond of horses, but as a meat eater myself I'm not about to condemn anyone for eating them.

LL1
July 5th, 2008, 03:53 PM
I agree with some of your points dingo,but the main difference would be that humans do not need to eat animals to survive. I agree feeding species appropriate diets to your companion animals is the way to go,rather than subject them to veggie diets because one is vegetarian,and ideally a veggies animal companions would also be of the vegetarian group.However with so many animals in need I admire those that adopt animals and in spite of their beliefs feed them their appropriate diet.Another thing I would like to add is that dogs and cats are not always humanely euthanized,that's a myth.

Lise
July 6th, 2008, 04:30 PM
I understand the problem with unwanted horses and agree there are too many.I also agree not every horse can be saved.I know how expensive it is to rehabilitate a horse.I have five who were rescues.Slaughter is not a humane option.Slaughter houses are a business for maximum profit,kill as many as possible as quickly as possible using the cheapest labour available.Even those who are pro slaughter must admit this system does not work and in my opinion until it can be forced to work humanely it should end.

kingcahz
December 7th, 2009, 12:10 AM
i worked long days at the gayhan arabian stud farm starting when i was 11 years old. they were the best days of my life. i stayed with gaylene until i was 18. i earned my first arabian horse from her, grooming, cleaning, feeding, halter training etc. Kinsriefe was my first horse- and arabian that I earned through hard work for gaylene. When I was 21 he was stolen out of a pasture off of I-45 close to Texas City. The Texas Rangers spent a lot of time and manpower trying to find Kinsriefe but they found no leads, and I was told that he was probably slaughtered the first night he was taken. He was my best friend in the world from the day I met him, at 11 years old. He became mine at the Pin Oaks Charity Show at the old Pin Oaks Stables in Houston when I was 13 years old, and he was ripped from my heart and my life when he was 11 and I was 21 years old. Horses are mans best friend- from the beginning of time. And there is no excuse for slaughtering such a fine creature from God.
:rip: