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Hyperthyroid Cat Treatments?

kim1412
June 3rd, 2008, 11:06 PM
Hi, I hope I'm posting this in the right spot... sorry if it's not

My cat is almost 14 years old and has recently had a geriatric blood panel done and has been found to have an elevated thyroid. Her number is 127... is this high? I got the impression from the vet that it is not high but requires treatment. I have looked over various treatment options on the internet including pills (tapazole), transdermal cream, surgery and radiation. Due to the cost, the pill is the most affordable for me. My cat was initially brought to the vet because she had started to poop occasionally outside of her litter box (no changes have been made in box, litter, area, food, environment, household members lives, no changes at all) I thought this may just be her getting older but wanted to check. After reading the info on the internet about Hyperthyroidism I do see some of the symptoms... her coat is looking a little ragged these days, she eats what may be a lot and drinks a fair bit too, she goes to the bathroom regularly but occasionally has diarrhea and throws up sometimes. She has had the diarrhea and vomiting since she was a baby and has been looked at by the vet, had millions of tests run, tried many foods recommended by the vet, has had steroids, you name it she has tried it and no resolution was ever found it was just sort of looked at like this was just her nature. As a baby she had epilepsy and was on medication for a number of years but has since grown out of it. She did not have the hyperthyroid 3 years ago when she had blood work done so it is a new development and other than the coat and the poop outside the box there really hasn't been a noticeable change.
So all that said, I spoke with another vet (a friend of mine's Dad) and he said I should first change her food. I looked all over the internet and I wasn't able to see this as a treatment normally prescribed for hyperthyroid so now I am confused. In previous food change attempts to control the diarrhea, food changes have always made things worse. She has tried so many prescribed by the vet that haven't worked that I am hesitant to try this route. She has been on the same diet for years but maybe all along it hasn't been the right one. She eats twice a day, Performatrin Ultra dry 1/4 cup and one spoonful of Performatrin Ultra wet or Merrick Cowboy Cookout mostly as a little treat. she drinks regularly and poops everyday, and usually at least 2 times a day but occasionally only once. Poops are soft, solid or mushy, no apparent rhyme or reason... there could be one of each in a day. My friend's Dad recommends Hills brand food... I thought this was not the best brand... aren't they the ones with contamination issues last year?
So now I'm stumped... change the food? To what? Hills? Get the pills? Do both? Do one first? Are the pills bad? Is it worth the extra money to get the cream? She has had pills before with no problem so that won't be an issue.
I know I gave a lot of information, sorry if it was too much. Just wondering your thoughts and/or advice on this.
Thanks :)

badger
June 3rd, 2008, 11:28 PM
I'd go ahead and try her on some Tapazole, it is a very safe medication. You may find that many of her other, seemingly unrelated problems clear up when the thyroid is treated.
My sister's cat was on Tapazole for several years before she died at 22. Some cats have problems on it, but it seems to be a minority.

growler~GateKeeper
June 3rd, 2008, 11:40 PM
My cat Duffy had HyperT a couple of years ago & I opted for the Radioactive Iodine Therapy, she has now been cured of HyperT for 3 years. Regarding the number being at 127, we need to know what the normal reference range is that your vet's lab uses since many labs differ in their testing and also what the unit value they are using. The lab here in BC uses nmol/L and the normal ref range for my lab is 18-40 nmol/L. When Duffy went in for RaId her T4 was @ 45 and the Dr doing the treatment thanked me for bringing her in so early since they see so many cases where the cats are in really really bad shape.

Another member (Chico2) also has a cat w/HyperT and she is treating w/Tapazole, it may take awhile to regulate the dosage to give the correct amount. Some cats cannot tolerate the medication in pill form, that is why the transdermal was made but is slightly less effective than in pill form.

I've not read anywhere in my research into HyperT that a change in diet is necessary, however Hills, Royal Canin (the other :yuck: vet brand) and Performatrin Ultra all had varieties included in the food recall.

Personally I would stick w/the Merricks canned, stop the Performatrin all together. Either go full canned or if you really want to feed dry look into Wellness, Wellness Core, Orijen, Eagle Pack Holistic Select they are all holistic foods and were not affected by last years recall.

Some info on HyperT and treatments:
http://www.gcvs.com/imaging/feline_hyperthyroidism.htm
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=138
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=516
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=510
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=509
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=517
http://www.stayathomecats.com/hyper-t.htm


This is the clinic in BC I took Duffy to, the only thing they do is RaId treatment for HyperT they have alot of great info on their site
http://www.iodinecafe.com/loader.swf

sugarcatmom
June 3rd, 2008, 11:58 PM
The thing about nutrition is that, even if it doesn't have direct bearing on the development of HyperT (the jury is still out on what causes it), it never hurts to feed the best food possible. That means a species-appropriate diet in the form of a high quality, meat-based wet food (canned, or even better, raw). Kibble (doesn't matter which brand, they're all variations on a theme) is less than ideal for a number of reasons: too high in carbohydrates, it's way over-processed, and it doesn't have enough moisture. Think fresh juicy rodents and birds, not breakfast cereal. The closer you can get to a cat's evolutionary diet, the better able they are to utilize the nutrients. If a balanced raw diet is not an option, there are a few decent quality canned foods, such as Wellness grain-free, Nature's Variety Instinct, By Nature Organics, Innova Evo 95%.....

If you want more details on the basics of feline nutrition, read this webpage by Dr. Lisa Pierson: http://www.catinfo.org/

kim1412
June 4th, 2008, 12:01 AM
thanks growler
After spending the last hour reading stuff on this site I am going to switch my baby to wet food full time. Although raw sounds great I don't even prepare healthy meals for myself so probably not realistic to go full on with that but I am going to look into the pre-packed raw ones... not sure where I might find those here in London, ON but I will look into it. I didn't realize that dry wasn't good :sad: now I feel bad... maybe all the poop and puke problems stem from the food she's had over the years. During the vet recommended food years it was always different dry foods I was trying. I've always given the wet food as a treat only. Darn vets why don't they tell people this!
I don't have all the vet numbers from her tests as I wasn't given a copy of the blood work only numbers over the phone that mean nothing to me. She said the number it should be around or under is 51 and hers was 127 but she has seen cats with numbers in the 300's. I did look into the radioactive iodine therapy as there is a place here in London that will do it but it is WAY out of my income range and the 5 day in treatment stay would be very hard on her as she loses her mind just going to the vet. She's almost 14 so I really wouldn't want to do something that might be very hard on her.
I did read on the internet to make sure her dose of Tapazole starts very low and the vet agreed. She is suggesting starting her on 1/2 tab 1x/day for 2 weeks, 1/2 tab 2x/day for 2 weeks, then a checkup and blood panel. She feels that this dose will likely be enough for her anyway.
Part of my concern stems from the fact that I don't know this vet. She is new and young. My cat has gone to the same clinic since she was a baby and has seen a couple of different vets over the years due to changeover, maternity, etc.
I thought I had heard that Hill's was not good so thank you for the info on some of the foods to probably avoid.

kim1412
June 4th, 2008, 12:04 AM
thanks sugarcatmom :)

I will look for all of those brands.
Do you guys think I should change her diet and then introduce the pills so that if she has any problems tolerating certain foods that I will be able to tell it is the food and not the pills and vice versa?

kim1412
June 4th, 2008, 12:06 AM
oh and also should I wean her off the dry or just jump right into the wet full time?
Thanks

growler~GateKeeper
June 4th, 2008, 12:27 AM
The RaId treatment is expensive and includes a 1 week clinic stay, I got a loan from my boss for it & was concerned about Duffy, who was 14 at the time, going in since she hadn't been spent the night away from home since been spayed, but she did great - they have playtime with the cats there :D Some cats take to the clinic time better than others & you know your cat better than anyone ;)

Duffy is now 17 (has kidney failure from the Royal Canin recall but) going strong & if I had the choice again I would always go for RaId. :2cents:

You can always ask for a copy of the tests results if you wish, many people aren't aware they can have them.

A low dose is always the way to start, that way you can see how her numbers progress & adjust incrementally.

Regarding the diarreah she has, you can try giving her 1/4 teaspoon of Heinz
Organics pure pureed Butternut Squash Babyfood mixed in with her canned food. Butternut Squash as well as pure pumpkin has a stabilizing effect on the water level in the bowels so if she has diarreah it will remove some excess water & if constipated it will add water in. What I find works the best is to scoop 1/4 tsp into ice cube tray sections freeze it (it will go bad in the jar before you use the whole thing), dump into freezer bag, then when you are ready to use place in the dish, in the sink w/some warm water.

I would change the food first, doing a quick switch depends on how addicted your grrl is to the dry. If there is a day you will be home all day you can feed her canned in the morning - if she doesn't finish it leave it out it's fine if it goes a bit dry, leave no dryfood out, see how often she goes to the feeding area & if she seems really hungry w/out dry and then feed canned again around the time you usually get home. Some cats will eat twice a day, and some like mine are snackers throughout the day/night

I feed a BC local raw diet to my grrl and she loves it. Scroll down to Ontario section & call those 2 stores I would suspect they should have some pre packaged raw, since they carry the FeelGood Treats http://www.feelgoodtreatco.com/wheretofindus.htm Usually you will find the rawfood in smaller specialty pet food/supply stores.

btw what's her name? and Welcome to pets.ca :D

kim1412
June 4th, 2008, 06:20 AM
Thanks growler, I will try the Butternut squash.

I did think about getting a loan for the RaId but after talking with the vet she thought that it would be best to start with the pill and see how she does. If she's doing fine on that then good, if she isn't tolerating it then we could look at the necessity of the RaId. I am actually not working right now so it would be very hard on me financially but I would do pretty much anything for my baby. Her name is Tangie by the way.

I'm sorry your cat got sick is that how you became so knowledgeable about the different foods out there? I actually never expected Tangie to even live this long. My childhood dog died unexpectedly at 9 1/2 and my first kitty died at 4 so Tangie has lived the longest by far and since she was so sick with the epilepsy as a baby I really expected she would die early as a result. At that time she elevated liver numbers and I figured with the drug she had to take that it had caused organ problems that would eventually end her life prematurely. I feel lucky she has lived to 14 and any extra time I have with her is a blessing :)

She has already had her first wet food breakfast. I always gave her the wet food at dinner so she's feeling pretty special right now LOL
With the hyperthyroid she does eat a fair bit so hopefully she won't go nuts without her kibble. I am going to wean her off of it rather than switch entirely as the article that sugarcatmom gave me suggested to make it easier on her. She has always prefered the wet food so I'm sure it won't be too difficult. Even with treats she doesn't like the hard ones, only the softer ones.
On the topic of treats currently I am giving her Zukes Hip Action (www.zukes.com) and Zukes Natural PurrZ... are these good treats? I thought the hip action ones would be helpful as she is older and jumping up on stuff isn't as easy for her as it once was.

As for the raw food link you gave me unfortunately Burlington is too far from where I am to get it there. I'm going to have a look in the phone book as I recall seeing a holistic pet food store in there at one time.

kim1412
June 4th, 2008, 06:22 AM
Yea! There is a raw food outlet right near my house :)
I'm going to pop over there today. They will likely have the good canned food too so I can get it all in one spot.

sugarcatmom
June 4th, 2008, 07:58 AM
Darn vets why don't they tell people this!


They just don't know. Most vets really aren't as well versed in nutrition, particularly feline nutrition, as one would think.

Glad you found a good pet food store near you. Careful with some of the pre-package raw choices out there, sometimes they have too much plant matter. A good one to look for is Nature's Variety frozen medallions. Has only 5% vegetables and you can download a coupon for a free bag here: http://naturesvariety.com/tryit/

Here is the store locator for NV in case it gives you some ideas for other shops in your area: http://naturesvariety.com/where_can.lasso?-Token.prov=ON&r=0656568

kim1412
June 4th, 2008, 08:04 AM
Thanks sugarcatsmom, turns out the place I found here is listed on the site you sent me so I will look for that brand of raw food. I will send off for a coupon too :)

kim1412
June 4th, 2008, 12:35 PM
Good news... the store I went today had the Wellness canned food grain free in tons of varieties, I think there were 8 different kinds :)
Thanks for the tip on the coupon sugarcatmom I bought the raw food (chicken) and got my 2nd bag free... very good deal saved $14!
Starting with the Wellness and weaning off the kibble... once that is done will start adding in the raw... the girl there said to do it slowly and add it to the canned at first just a bit at a time.
Will her poop smell better on this diet because it's pretty wretched now :yuck:

I've decided to hold off on the tapazole... after a month of the new diet if she's tolerating it well I think I'm going to try an all natural herb for hyperthyroid that the girl at the store recommended. I'll have to look into it a bit though.
It's made by Natures Pet www.naturespet.com is the website she gave me. She said her customers have had great success with it. After a 4-6 weeks of that I'll get her blood tested again and see where she's at and if I have to go with the tapazole then I will but why not try the all natural one first right?
Has anyone heard of it before?

kim1412
June 4th, 2008, 01:55 PM
Seems I had the wrong website

Here is the correct one:
http://www.naturespetherbs.com/index.html

sugarcatmom
June 4th, 2008, 02:21 PM
Starting with the Wellness and weaning off the kibble... once that is done will start adding in the raw... the girl there said to do it slowly and add it to the canned at first just a bit at a time.

Excellent plan. It's definitely a good idea to go slowly with diet changes.

Will her poop smell better on this diet because it's pretty wretched now :yuck:

After an initial period of adjustment while her intestinal flora adapts, it should smell much better. Sometimes I can't even tell when my cat has used the litter box, which is amazing when you know that he never buries the evidence, and the litter box is on my main floor next to my living room.

I've decided to hold off on the tapazole...

Just a caution on this: untreated hyperT is hard on a cat's system and can result in heart problems and blindness from high blood pressure. There's a great feline hyperT Yahoo group here (http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-hyperT/?v=1&t=search&ch=web&pub=groups&sec=group&slk=1) that has lots more info if you need it.

I'm also very sceptical of claims that herbs can be used to treat hyperT in cats, especially when I look at the ingredients of the one on that website. It contains kelp, which is very high in iodine, which is suspected to be a contributing factor in thyroid disorders. It's up to you, but I would personally stay away from it. I think you'd be better off starting with a small dose of Tapazole (like maybe even less than 2.5mg/day) and going from there.

kim1412
June 4th, 2008, 02:47 PM
I think you'd be better off starting with a small dose of Tapazole (like maybe even less than 2.5mg/day) and going from there.

Should I do the diet changes for a month and then start the tapazole or start it now along with the diet changes... will waiting 4 weeks make a big difference IYO

sugarcatmom
June 4th, 2008, 04:01 PM
It might be a good idea to talk to your vet about that. If it were me, I'd probably start the Tapazole now. The diet change isn't going to make the thyroid issue go away, even if it does help in other areas of your cat's health.

growler~GateKeeper
June 4th, 2008, 04:41 PM
Personally I wouldn't wait more than 1 week to start treatment for the HyperT, true that her T4 number is not extremely high but still up there. If you want to make sure Tangie is tolerating the food okay you should know within the first week or two how she fairs on it.

A note of interest on the cans, if the varieties you picked up have a pop-top lid, there was a study done that suggested the linings in those cans "possibly contributes" to HyperT. The food inside is fine aslong as the lining is not exposed to air, so when you open a can put all of the unused amount in a glass dish, cover w/plastic wrap & store in the fridge. http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=45118

The poops will get better after being on a higher quality no dry diet, as sugarcatmom mentions I also cannot tell by smell when Duffy (eating only raw) has made a deposit in the box :D

If you are looking into homeopathy/holistic treatment options it is far better to talk to a Homeopath Vet first. You can ask for a recommendation from your vet to one in your area.

A homeopathic study of HyperT treatments done by my vet is here (http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/wsava/2006/lecture2/Dobias1.pdf?LA=1), his cat is also currently on these treatments for HyperT. Duffy at the time of her RaId treatment was seeing a conventional vet, who upon my request referred us to homeopathy after being diagnosed w/Kidney failure.

kim1412
June 4th, 2008, 04:58 PM
Thanks growler,
I've a call into my vet to discuss the food changes in conjunction with the medication. After reading your posts here now I've changed my mind again :confused: and am now thinking that perhaps I will just do the gradual switch to canned while starting the pill and then both should be up and running at the same time since the tapazole will be started gradually too. I will leave the adding of the raw food a month until all that is worked out.
I knew that about the cans but I have been using a plastic tub so now I will try to find a glass one :)
Thanks for all the help guys :D

growler~GateKeeper
June 4th, 2008, 05:08 PM
Depends on what kind of plastic: if it has a strong plastic smell not so good, if it is cheap dollar store plastic not so good, but higher quality should be okay. I use Ziploc Single Serve containers (http://i4.peapod.com/c/QE/QEJKZ.jpg) for the raw cuz they can go in the freezer.

Glass is usually suggested because it doesn't retain or transfer smell (usually if you've used plastic for cat/dog food especially dry food you can't really use it for anything else cuz of the smell) and it is easier to clean, bacteria can stay on plastics much easier than glass.

kim1412
June 4th, 2008, 05:20 PM
That is actually what I use the Ziploc ones. They are the perfect size but I just use the same one over and over for her food only. When I open a new can I was giving her a spoonful and then would store the rest from the tin in the Ziploc container and when I was finished that can I wash it and re-use the same one over. It is marked for only her food. It doesn't appear to smell like anything.
I'll see if I can find a little glass jar at the dollar store, maybe one of those that is used for canning it should have a good seal on it :)

growler~GateKeeper
June 4th, 2008, 05:24 PM
If you're already using the Ziploc you're fine :thumbs up

chico2
June 4th, 2008, 05:34 PM
Kim,you have gotten a lot of good advice from everyone.
My Rocky has HT and is on Tapazole,I am sorry I have to get off the PC,but I'll post tomorrow morning about our experiences with Rocky.

starr
June 5th, 2008, 12:16 AM
Hi! We had an elderly cat successfully managed with tapazole or methimazole but she didn't pill easily and she threw up a lot which is a side effect of the drug so the vet gave us a transdermal medication that we put on the inside of her ear. The medication absorbs through the skin. It was easier to administer and didn't give her the tummy trouble.

We also put her on a higher protein diet as recommended by our homeopath.
The thyroid reading for your cat is high but ours was in the 300s, poor girl. The good news is that her thyroid stabilized. How-ev-er...because of her low weight the dosage caused the change more quickly than anticipated and her thyroid then became too low. We had to continually adjust and have her blood tested until we found a medication amount that worked. It was a bit costly but it was worth it.

chico2
June 5th, 2008, 07:52 AM
Kim,my Rocky is 12yrs old,was diagnozed with HT oct 2006,his symptoms were classical.
He went from a healthy 16lb's to 12 lb's in no-time,he was really hyper,pacing back and forth all day,constantly hungry and thirsty.
He had a thorough check-up including bloodtests,urinetests etc..
He was put on Tapazole,starting with 1/4 of 5mg/twice daily,bloodtests about once a month,but since any other problem was excluded,now my new vet only checks his thyroid-level,considerably cheaper at about $80(in case $$ is an issue).
Today he is taking 1,5mg tab/twice daily.
I have been getting away with mashing his pill in a teaspoon of his food and after he licks that up,he gets the rest,I could never just give him the pill,it tastes too awful:yuck:
He is doing much better,has gained back some of his weight,is back to beeing Rocky,no more pacing.
However,he has had semi-runny poop from day one,nothing seemed to help much,no vomiting though.
My cats are all on almost exclusively canned food,right now they are on a variety,Wellness(no grain),Fromm,Merricks and even back to some Fancy Feast.
I fed them exclusively Wellness for a while,until they got tired of it,now with a lot of variety,they eat really well,3 times/day.
I tried the Raw Medallions,several times,but it did not work,not with any of my 3 cats:yell:
I find Rockys poop is now firmer,maybe it's the variety of foods??
He also has a sizeable lump in his throat-area,which is worrysome,so we are considering the RAID treatment sometime in the future.

growler~GateKeeper
June 6th, 2008, 12:12 AM
ohhh Tangie's a Tortie :lovestruck: she's gorgeous :cloud9:

How's she doing today? :goodvibes:

chico2
June 6th, 2008, 08:23 AM
Aww a pic,she looks beautiful:lovestruck:

kim1412
June 6th, 2008, 02:18 PM
Thanks for all the advice :)
I picked up Tangie's pills today and started her on 1/4 pill 2x/day for a week and then will give her 1/2 pill 2x/day for 4 weeks and have her blood test done again. She took the pill no problem :thumbs up
I may shop around for a better price on the tests and pills... I'm not that fond of the vet I last saw and the clinic is very expensive. I've only been going there because of all the problems she had as a baby (the epilepsy) and they have all of her records. Have you ever changed vets? Can you request copies of their records?
I've also started her on a bit more canned food... vet wants me to wait a couple of weeks on the pills before I continue to switch her over to all canned. I'll stick with 1/4c of kibble daily and 1 can I think that should be enough food? If she's hungry I'll just a add a spoonful of canned.
The pooping issue is still going strong however as I came home to 4 poops on the rug :( she managed to hit the bedroom, bathroom and 2 in the living room. I hope it's just because she's feeling a little punky because of the hyperT and not some other issue. Any thoughts on why she might be doing this?

chico2
June 6th, 2008, 04:39 PM
Kim,I can't give any advice on the pooping issue,my Rocky always manages to run down to the box downstairs.
Maybe she is just a bit confused about the runny poop and she does not get to the box fast enough:confused:
As for changing vets,I just did and am sooo happy about it,not because he's a bit cheaper,but because he's a wonderful guy.
Usually the new vet will fax the old vet for records,but often they charge up to $50 to give them.
My old vet never did send the records of my cats,but that was ok,I keep a record myself of all their treatments and bills.
I don't know why your vet don't want you to change food right now,I really don't think HT has anything to do with food,but I could be wrong:confused:

I

kim1412
June 6th, 2008, 04:42 PM
Also, should note that switching her over to canned only will be a breeze as she is loving the Wellness. She has had 3 different kinds of the grain free and she gobbles it up. In fact I think I will put down less at a time as pig-oh here will eat whatever is there, she's not good at spreading her meals out. A bit of diarrhea today but yesterday when the poops where on the rug they were fairly solid.

kim1412
June 6th, 2008, 04:46 PM
Chico, I think she's doesn't want me making any major changes in her food until she has been on the pills for a couple of weeks so we will know if there are any side effects from the pills... if there are any changes in diarrhea or vomiting it will be hard to know if is because of the pill or food changes if I do it at the same time... she thinks one change at a time is the best approach.

chico2
June 6th, 2008, 04:55 PM
Kim,yes I suppose that makes sense,my cats have always had a wide variety of foods and Rocky has not been vomitting at all,but still has semi-runny poop.
Good luck with your girl,she is beautiful:cat:

kim1412
June 6th, 2008, 04:58 PM
Thanks Chico2, I think she's pretty beautiful but I am biased ;)

My friend had a cat named Rocky that looked like the cat in your pic is that your Rocky or one of your other cats?

chico2
June 6th, 2008, 05:09 PM
Kim,no the one in the Avatar is Vinnie,he's only about 6yrs old,Rocky is my tabby-kitty,one who's had a lot of problems,but an absolutely wonderful smart cat.
Here he is.

kim1412
June 6th, 2008, 05:59 PM
SO Cute!:lovestruck:

I love it when they give big stretches like that!

Tangie just had an awful smelly poop and after going in the box I saw her starting to go outside the box so I tried to tell her no and put her back in it but she wasn't having that and now she's mad at me :frustrated:
Not sure what to do about this... I can't have her pooping all over the place... I wonder why she is doing this...

sugarcatmom
June 6th, 2008, 08:13 PM
Not sure what to do about this... I can't have her pooping all over the place... I wonder why she is doing this...

She could be associating the litter box with discomfort. I know whenever my cat has diarrhea or is constipated, he tends to go in "safe" places like under the bed (one time even ON the bed!) or behind some furniture. I suspect he's looking for some kind of assurance or solace in comfy places while he deals with his predicament. Not sure if that's the case with your kitty, but I would try not to make a big deal out of it in front of her. She's probably stressed out enough and giving her any kind of reprimand might make it worse. Just make sure you clean the spots up really well with an enzymatic cleaner so there is no residual odour.

kim1412
June 6th, 2008, 08:23 PM
I felt bad for being upset with her but we made up :) and she has been cuddling with me so she's not longer upset. I've been using Prosolve Foam Carpet Cleaner should I be using some special kind of cleaner? If so do I buy it at a Pet food store? Any brand you recommend?
She is now begging for the Wellness food! I'm worried that she will eat too much and make the poop worse... based on her weight, 8lbs, she should only be getting one can per day... should I be giving her more if she wants it?

growler~GateKeeper
June 7th, 2008, 12:40 AM
Have you ever changed vets? Can you request copies of their records?

As for changing vets,I just did and am sooo happy about it,not because he's a bit cheaper,but because he's a wonderful guy.
Usually the new vet will fax the old vet for records,but often they charge up to $50 to give them.

When you change vet the old vet needs your permission to fax the records to the new vet. So it is always best for you to call the old vet say this is the fax number for my new vet can you send the records over there, if they don't do it then, the new vets' receptionist will call over to request them.

As for you requesting copies yes you are allowed a copy of whatever is in their files including digital pics and digital xrays. The vets should NOT charge anything for that. When I have requested copies for Duffy's file incl the pics & xrays I was not charged and when I requested copies for my :rip: :dog: his vet's office copied a thick file of 12 years of visits/treatments at no charge for me and they did not have an in clinic copier.

kim1412
June 10th, 2008, 03:23 PM
I haven't investigated a new vet yet but plan to do that this week.

Still having the poop on the carpet problem :(
She seems to be having only 1-2 poops a day now on the Wellness (previously 3-4) and always one super good formed, solid poop which seems to be followed shortly after by a soft, more diarrhea like poop which is done in the box and then I will find a couple more little ones on the rug :(
I'm giving her the baby squash now and she loves it... she seems to love ALL food given to her LOL
She is only getting 1/8c of dry food now and 1-1 1/4 can of Wellness. She is taking her 1/4 pill of Tapazole 2x/day no problem. I'm hoping that once she gets on her full prescribed pill regime of 1/2 pill x 2/day (doing 1/4x2 for one week) that this will stop? Do you think she is pooping on the rug because she's not feeling all that great? I can't tell because she seems absolutely fine. She loves the Wellness and is actually not at all interested in the dry so it will be gone soon... just trying to change slowly.
I'm not sure what else to do...

chico2
June 10th, 2008, 05:25 PM
Kim,it sounds like you are doing great with your girl,other than the poop-problem.
I am no vet,but I think the pooping on the carpet is probably not related to HT.
My Rocky has had semi-runny poop for a long time now,but never outside of the box.
Hyperthyroid cats seem to be hungry all the time and usually eat anything,but once the pills start working,that usually subsides to normal eating-habits.
Hope you find a solution for the poop-on-carpet problem:fingerscr

kim1412
June 10th, 2008, 09:48 PM
Should I perhaps start a new thread asking for help with the poop issue? Not really sure how all this posting stuff works and I don't want to over-step

sugarcatmom
June 10th, 2008, 11:46 PM
Still having the poop on the carpet problem :(

Sorry to hear that. I know how frustrating it can be.

She seems to be having only 1-2 poops a day now on the Wellness (previously 3-4) and always one super good formed, solid poop which seems to be followed shortly after by a soft, more diarrhea like poop which is done in the box and then I will find a couple more little ones on the rug :(

Do you think she gets constipated as well as having diarrhea? I'm wondering if the little poops on the rug are indicative of that. Something like slippery elm bark can be very helpful for both conditions so you might want to think about adding some to her diet for a little while to see if it has an affect (it's available at health food stores, you can just mix the powder in with her wet food). http://www.littlebigcat.com/?action=library&act=show&item=slipperyelm


I'm hoping that once she gets on her full prescribed pill regime of 1/2 pill x 2/day (doing 1/4x2 for one week) that this will stop? Do you think she is pooping on the rug because she's not feeling all that great?

That's certainly possible. It's hard to say what will happen once her thyroid is better regulated, but in the meantime, here is a link with suggestions for dealing with inappropriate elimination that could help: http://www.sniksnak.com/cathealth/inappro-elim.html


She loves the Wellness and is actually not at all interested in the dry so it will be gone soon... just trying to change slowly.

That's awesome! She's a smart cookie. I wish my guy had been that agreeable.

badger
June 10th, 2008, 11:52 PM
Has she been properly tested for parasites (where they send the sample to an outside lab to check for bacteria)?

sugarcatmom
June 10th, 2008, 11:54 PM
Forgot to ask, and I'm too lazy to see if you've already mentioned this: how many litter boxes do you have? It may simply be that she would prefer to have another box. Especially if she was pooping several times a day, unless you're also scooping it several times a day, she may just not want to go back into a dirty box.

Love4himies
June 11th, 2008, 08:14 AM
I don't know how I missed this post??

Sugarcatmom and Growler are the absolute cat nuturition gurus as I am sure you now know.

I changed Puddles from Fancy Feast/PC cat food to Wellness grain free as per their recommendations and it:

Made her more active
Made her fur look like it was when she was young
Stopped her vomitting

Good luck with your kitty, I hope you can get her thyroid under control quickly.

kim1412
June 11th, 2008, 01:15 PM
Thanks Surgarcatmom, I will check out those websites.

Do you think she gets constipated as well as having diarrhea? I'm wondering if the little poops on the rug are indicative of that. Something like slippery elm bark can be very helpful for both conditions

She doesn't seem to be constipated but who knows, might as well try the slippery elm :) I'm giving her some baby food squash now as Growler suggested is it ok to give both?

how many litter boxes do you have?

She has only one litter box but I do scoop it a couple of times a day but now that there is only 1-2 poops they are scooped almost right away. Also, yesterday I fully changed and cleaned her litter box. She still pooped outside it last night and this morning.
She has always had one box except when her diarrhea was really bad several years ago... I added one because she was going so much I couldn't keep up. Do you think I should add one again? I only have a 2 room apt so it's not like she has to go far to get to the one she has. Nothing has changed as far as the location of the box, type of litter, environment for 11 years. She seems to be having these outside the box poops mainly near the door should I put a little box there? I hate to have a litter box right at my front door. Would this just encourage her to go at the front door? Nothing like walking in the house to the smell of cat pee and poop.

Has she been properly tested for parasites (where they send the sample to an outside lab to check for bacteria)?

Yes Badger when I took her in 2 weeks ago she had a stool test done, full vet checkup and blood work. This was the reason I took her to the vet but the vet never addressed the pooping problem only the discovery of the hyperthyroid - for which I hadn't really seen signs of a problem (now that I know what they are I see a few).

Stopped her vomitting
Love4himies, Tangie did have a bit of an issue with vomiting but has always had it... hasn't puked once since I started her on the new food :) Miracle!
Now if only I could get the pooping issue under control... I had hoped the food would help with that too but not so far...

Any suggestions on a rug cleaner? I'm just using ProSolve right now... should I be using something special?

kim1412
June 11th, 2008, 01:38 PM
Just read on this website http://www.sniksnak.com/cathealth/inappro-elim2.html
that the problem could be her hyperthyroid

endocrine disorders such as hyperthyroidism and diabetes, can lead to changes in elimination habits including house-soiling.

This oddly makes me feel a bit better... now I have hope that once her levels return to normal she will stop :)

sugarcatmom
June 11th, 2008, 02:32 PM
She doesn't seem to be constipated but who knows, might as well try the slippery elm :) I'm giving her some baby food squash now as Growler suggested is it ok to give both?

Giving both would be fine, just add a bit of extra water (tsp or 2) to her food in case the slippery elm absorbs more moisture. Also, don't give her any meds within about an hour of giving her the SEB because it can interfere with absorption.


She seems to be having these outside the box poops mainly near the door should I put a little box there? I hate to have a litter box right at my front door. Would this just encourage her to go at the front door?

What you could do is put a small box by the door and if she uses it, very slowly move it to where you'd rather it be. Another technique which might work if she mostly goes in one particular spot is to make that spot unappealing for pooping. You can put her food dishes there, or perhaps tinfoil or sticky tape, something that she won't walk on. This may only cause her to go somewhere else though, so watch her.


Any suggestions on a rug cleaner? I'm just using ProSolve right now... should I be using something special?


I'm not familiar with ProSolve, but some good cleaners to remove all traces of odor (which we may not be able to smell, but cats sure can) are Anti-Icky Poo (http://www.antiickypoo.com/c-antiickypoo.html), or X-O Odor Neutralizer (http://www.xocorp.com/).

kim1412
June 11th, 2008, 09:28 PM
Sugarcatmom thanks for those tips... I'm going to see about getting the slippery elm tomorrow :)
I like the sound of the Anti-Icky-Poo... it says no scrubbing... how do you get the stain up if you don't even wipe it? I think not having to scrub the carpet would be great :) Have you ever used this product? Is it true you don't have to scrub the carpet? That's pretty neat if it's true!
If she's gonna poop on the carpet I actually prefer her to do it where she is doing it now... I have an old mat at the front door which she seems to be hitting now so I'd rather she does it there than somewhere else. I'm undecided if getting a box to put there will do any good I wouldn't want to her to find yet another spot to soil... at least now I know a few places she tends to hit and I can watch out for those... I would hate for her to start heading under the bed as it's too hard to get under there to clean without turning the room upside down.
I'm going to start with the slippery elm as my next step... oh and the Anti-Icky-Poo too :) Hope I can find it here...

chico2
June 12th, 2008, 07:37 AM
I don't remember if anyone mentioned it,but Natures Miracle is great for removing any odors and it is available in most pet-store.
I have a spraying problem with one of my boys and it works.
I should point out,that problem has been solved with Feli-Way diffusers,more or less.

kim1412
June 12th, 2008, 10:39 PM
I wasn't able to find the Nature's Miracle at the holistic pet store I went to today (figured they would have it so I didn't try my local pet store) so I bought the one they recommended...it's called "Get Serious!" It is a pheromone, stain and odor remover


Today has been a good day... no poop on the floor last night, and none so far today :) One poop this morning and one just now... solid and less smelly than it was :) no diarrhea :thumbs up
She is eating the Wellness great and doesn't seem as hungry as she was the first few days.. hasn't been crying for it today :D
Today was the first day on the full dose of Tapazole too... 1/2 tab 2x/day so hopefully things are heading in the right direction.
I'm continuing the squash... she likes it, it's kind of a treat to her... should I stop this after a while or is it ok to continue?
I bought some slippery elm today too because I read it could be helpful... I haven't given her any, not exactly sure of the amount to give her so have asked on the website I heard about it. She may be on the mend now and may not need it anyway. Just trying to get all the info I can to get her feeling better so she doesn't want to poop on the rug :)

growler~GateKeeper
June 13th, 2008, 12:38 AM
great progress :thumbs up

I would continue the squash for at least a couple more days to be on the safe side diarreah-wise, there's no harm giving it whether she needs it or not. After that it's up to you, if her poops are a very light colour, seems hard & crumbly & it appears hard for her to go or if she has diarreah again - then she would need it, but if she has nice normal dark colour poops she may not need it.

kim1412
June 23rd, 2008, 12:25 AM
Things are getting worse :(

Tangie is experiencing more diarrhea and is pooping outside her box
with each bowel movement. She usually has 2/day and they are becoming
looser.... she has been getting about 1/8tsp of the slippery elm but
it has not helped at all...
She has been eating well, drinking normally, taking her Tapzole 1/2
5mg tab x 2/day and has been having 1/4 tsp of baby organic squash
each day as well.
I am feeling so bad for her as nothing seems to be helping. She is
very lethargic and has no interest in playing. She used to greet me at
the door when I came home and now, even when I call for her, she
doesn't come. She used to love going outside for a few hours everyday
to find adventure throughout the backyard but now if she goes out at
all it's usually with my encouragement and then she just sits under
the tree. She doesn't prowl the backyard or try to visit the
neighbours yard at all. I am VERY worried about her. The Tapazole
doesn't seem to be making her feel better... I think she felt much
better before this. She was a pretty happy girl before all of this
started and now just seems depressed. Her coat was looking a bit
better after I switched her food but now is looking a bit ragged. She
has gained a bit of weight I think, but she wasn't really that skinny,
so she is probably at normal weight. She is not due to be re-tested
for her thyroid for 3 more weeks. Should I get it done sooner? I'm
getting very worried about her and not sure what to do next. I'm
thinking I should see about taking her to a different vet for another
opinion but I don't want to spend a ton of money on tests as I'm not
working and I would like to save as much as possible in case she has
to have the radioactive iodine therapy (which I'm not sure I can get
the money for anyway). Could these mood changes and increase in
diarrhea be from the Tapazole? I didn't give her the slippery elm
today as I haven't seen an improvement with it. Should I give it more
time? It's been about a week...
I don't know if all these changes are stemming from the
hyperthyroidism or could be IBD? At her last visit with the vet when I brought her in because of her pooping outside the box she said she might have IBD.
She doesn't vomit regularly, in fact she has only done that once since switching her diet to the Wellness grain free... unless she has eaten grass. She has vomited a couple times after eating grass though... not sure why she eats it, she always throws up after.

I've changed her diet and now I guess I wait? Or should I be pursuing
more changes? I have the raw food in the freezer and could begin
giving her some but I'm afraid it could make things worse.

Her Dr. mentioned that she might need to take predisone if it is IBD
but she wanted to treat the hyperthyroid first.... my problem with
that is she feels worse since she started this treatment and the
reason for my visit to the vet... that she was pooping outside her
box... has not been addressed. She is pooping about 2x/day and is now always doing some in the box and some outside the box in 2-3 places. I see her straining to go and I feel so bad for her :(

I'm calling her vet in the morning... any advice on what to ask for from her would be greatly appreciated and any suggestions on what my next steps should be would be appreciated too.
Thanks,
Kim

growler~GateKeeper
June 23rd, 2008, 12:53 AM
I'm sorry Tangie is feeling poorly :grouphug:

Yes the mood, lethargy and loss of appetite could be from the Tapazole:

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=510
Approximately 15% of cats will experience some kind of side effect. The usual side effects are: lethargy, loss of appetite, and vomiting. If one of these side effects occurs, medication is discontinued until the symptoms resolve. Medication is then restarted at a lower dose and gradually increased to the former dose. These side effects do not generally recur if medication is increased gradually in this way.

As for the pooping outside the box, I did notice this a bit with Duffy before she was treated - for her it was mostly her in the box to poop, going some then leaving & finishing elsewhere.

I think you should mention all this to her vet, see she wants to have her T4 rechecked, perhaps discuss either stopping the tapazole until the symptoms clear then restarting again @ a different dosage or consider the transdermal tapazole - this is like a gel that is smeared inside the ear instead of giving as a pill

:goodvibes: for Tangie & you :grouphug:

chico2
June 23rd, 2008, 06:50 AM
Kim,I am really sorry to hear she is not doing any better:sad:
The slippery elm and squash did not help my Rocky's soft poop either,but I was happy to try it.
He was even put on a round of antibiotics in case of a bug or something and I like you have changed their canned food to Wellness a while back,tried others too(Evo,Fromm,etc..)
I suppose all cats react differently,but Rocky before Tapazole,was too energetic and nervy,lost about 4 lb's or more,although he was eating with gusto.
He has now gained almost all his weight back and doing good,except for his poop.
I can't help thinking that something else is going on with your kitty,but I am not as knowledgable as Growler about HT.
Rocky has fortunately never missed the litterboxes and poops usually only once daily,but still has very soft poop.
As for vomiting after eating grass,most cats do I think it cleanses their innards or something like that.
If I were you,I probably would take her to the vet sooner than 3 weeks from now,especially because of the lethargy.
:goodvibes:for your beautiful Tortie:fingerscr

kim1412
June 23rd, 2008, 09:50 AM
Thanks guys for the feedback :)

I have a call into her vet and am just waiting to hear back. The vet she was seeing that I didn't particularly like has left the clinic that she goes to so I am hoping the vet she used to see will be the one to call back... I asked for her. She was really great but has been there the longest so everyone wants to see her.

Thanks for the info growler on the side effects. I was hoping the Tapazole was going to work because she is easy to pill but if these problems are from it then I don't know what I'm going to do. If the transdermal cream is the same med, with less reliability due to the compounding, I would've preferred to have her on the pills due to expense and reliability. I just bought a new prescription of the pills last week too....

Is Duffy still going outside the box? Was this resolved once the thyroid was under control? I was hoping she was going to be the same and once the meds were working she would be back to her old self again. Guess I'll have to wait to speak with her vet...

kim1412
June 23rd, 2008, 04:05 PM
Spoke with Tangie's vet this morning... well her new one I guess since I got a Dr. we hadn't seen before. She seemed nice and was much more positive than the old one. She suggested trying an antibiotic called metronidazole for a few days and then I could try using a probiotic if the diarrhea gets better. She will be taking 50mg tab every 12 hours for 5 days so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I guess the antibiotic is an inflammatory too and she thinks it will help bring down any inflammation and hopefully help with the diarrhea.

Today she isn't eating very well... she usually cries for her food but doesn't want to touch it today. She had a bit this morning but wouldn't eat the Wellness. I had some Merricks Cowboy Cookout that she used to eat and she ate some of that. I mixed the rest in with her beef & chicken Wellness but she's not going for it. I tried putting some of the water from a can of tuna on it and she licked the liquid up but won't touch the food. She did eat just some plain tuna though so she's getting something in. I'm going to pick up a couple of the Wellness pouches... I know they aren't grain free but maybe she'll be a little more interested in those, they seem more like a treat. I read that sometimes feeding a completely different meat than she has had before might help and they have a duck and herring one and she has never had either of those so maybe it will be good for her? The vet doesn't want me starting her on raw yet because she wants to change one thing at a time to see what works... do you think giving her a bit of a different food counts as "changing" something?

kim1412
June 23rd, 2008, 05:16 PM
Well, she's a tricky one today... I bought the Wellness Healthy Indulgence in Turkey and Duck (turns out the first ingredient is actually chicken which is what she is already not eating). I came to her on the bed and opened the package so she could smell it... she got up and cried for some so I put some in her bowl and she went right for it. However, all she did was lick up the gravy :(

I'm going into town later to get a can of Nature's Variety in Duck, Venison or Rabbit as I heard that she might need a "novel" protein.... sort of what I was trying with this pouch but with Chicken as it's main protein source it wasn't really what I had expected.

Maybe she's just feeling too yukky to eat but it seems she'll eat some stuff that is more like a treat like the tuna. She also ate some of her Natural Purrz which are chicken flavour so not sure...

chico2
June 23rd, 2008, 05:19 PM
Kim,If your Tangie is used to a varied diet,like mine are,I don't think it would matter as long as she eats,it's a good thing.
What I know from HyperT,is that the cats get very hungry and eat just about anything and still loses weight,that's how Rocky was.
He has now gained almost 3 lb's,:thumbs up on his way to his regular weight of 16lb's.
I know how frustrated you must feel,I hope she will eat the pouches:fingerscr:goodvibes:

growler~GateKeeper
June 24th, 2008, 12:31 AM
Is Duffy still going outside the box? Was this resolved once the thyroid was under control?

Nope, this stopped once the HT was taken care of.

The metronidazole could be the cause for not wanting to eat right now, unfortunately meds will do that sometimes :grouphug:, if Tangie has something she really likes (cheese, cooked ham, cooked beef, etc) you can use this to top her canned food to tempt her to eat it, hopefully it won't be long before her appetite is back. The poor grrl has been through so much already.

Probiotics are great for replacing the good microbacteria in the gut, may help with the poop issues - sorry I didn't think of that :o

:fingerscr :goodvibes: that the meds will clear up the poop & the Tapazole will kick in soon.

kim1412
June 24th, 2008, 01:01 AM
Well things got a bit better as the night went on :)
She at first only licked the gravy out of the Wellness pouch but eventually ate it all... then seemed to want more so instead of giving her another pouch because I don't know how good those are... I gave her a bit of Wellness canned Salmon&Trout which she liked and ate right up. I hadn't bought any of the fish varieties originally because they weren't grain free and I was trying to stick with those. After she managed to eat some tuna today though I thought why not try a little can maybe she's just plain needing a change...like your Rockey Chico, she likes a variety. Her mood seemed to perk up a bit after she had a little to eat and we even had some play time :thumbs up

She had a bit more before bed and ate that right up too so her tummy seems to have settled a bit. I'm still going to get some of the Nature's Variety canned tomorrow just to give her some more variety, she seems to like that.

So far no poop today... maybe it's settling down? I stopped the slippery elm and baby squash today but maybe they've just started working?

Nope, this stopped once the HT was taken care of.

Here's hoping Growler that Tangie will follow in Duffy's footsteps:fingerscr

Probiotics are great for replacing the good microbacteria in the gut, may help with the poop issues

After her 5 days of antibiotics I'm going to start giving probiotics to her... her vet wanted me to wait and do one thing at a time so although I think she should have the probiotic WITH the antibiotic, I'll wait a few days and hope the antibiotics work.

He has now gained almost 3 lb's, on his way to his regular weight of 16lb's.

Wow Chico that is one BIG boy! Tangie only weighs 3.6kg which is almost 8 lbs and she really didn't lose that much weight... she is a small girl :)
She seems to have gained a bit already. I am wondering if because she is so small if maybe she doesn't need as much Tapazole. She is taking 1/2 5mg tabx2/day which the vet said is the average amount but you gotta wonder how the same dose can be given to a 16 lbs cat and an 8 lbs cat... is that what Rocky is on? Guess I'll find out when she is re-tested in 3 weeks to see if she's on the right amount of the Tapazole. She was doing ok on her first week at just 1/4 tab x 2/day...

growler~GateKeeper
June 24th, 2008, 01:12 AM
After her 5 days of antibiotics I'm going to start giving probiotics to her... her vet wanted me to wait and do one thing at a time so although I think she should have the probiotic WITH the antibiotic, I'll wait a few days and hope the antibiotics work.

I would also wait, there is so much "extra stuff" going in right now you don't want one counter-acting the other.

YAY for eating :thumbs up good girl Tangie :D

rainbow
June 24th, 2008, 01:47 AM
I was always under the impression that probiotics should be given after you have finished giving the entire dose of antibiotics. :shrug:

chico2
June 24th, 2008, 07:55 AM
Kim,Rocky is on 1 5mg pill twice daily and I mash it in a teaspoon of food,which he licks up usually in no time at all,then he gets the rest.
All my boys are big cats,Chico is 16lb's and Vinnie 18lb's,however Vinnie is too big,so no more free-feeding on dry.
I am glad Tangie is eating,it is always such a worry if they don't..:thumbs up
I take Probiotics myself,how much would you give a large kitty?

kim1412
June 24th, 2008, 08:40 AM
I was always under the impression that probiotics should be given after you have finished giving the entire dose of antibiotics. :shrug:

I read some where that, people anyway, should take a probiotic with antibiotics to help keep the "good" flora... maybe that's not right... that's what I was going by. In any event she will be getting it after the antibiotics :)

I take Probiotics myself,how much would you give a large kitty?
I don't really know how much to give her, I just started looking into it. Maybe someone has the answer on here??

She woke me up to eat this morning, something she hasn't done in a few days :thumbs up she had some Wellness but still no poop.... mood seems pretty good though :)

chico2
June 24th, 2008, 08:52 AM
Kim,I got really sick(very bad case of the runs) while taking antibiotics for a cat-bite infection and was told to take pro-biotics too and I still do.
I will ask my vet when he calls about Rockys bloodtest,if he would benefit from pro-biotics and how much.
Such a relief Tangie is on the up-swing:thumbs up

kim1412
June 24th, 2008, 09:38 AM
Kim,I got really sick(very bad case of the runs) while taking antibiotics for a cat-bite infection and was told to take pro-biotics too and I still do.
I will ask my vet when he calls about Rockys bloodtest,if he would benefit from pro-biotics and how much.
Such a relief Tangie is on the up-swing:thumbs up

Thanks Chico :) She just had a poop... not exactly solid but somewhat formed and no poop on the rug :thumbs up I'm so happy for her and for me :D but man did it stink! Woah that was one nasty poop :yuck: Oh oh she's in there again and is kind of just sitting there... wow it's so stinky! She went again but totally runny... however it was only in the box and she doesn't seem too upset about it :goodvibes:

:fingerscr hopefully this will be a good day :)

kim1412
June 24th, 2008, 04:46 PM
Picked up some new food today to try...
Shredded Duck from FROMM

Does this sound any good? She loved it, ate it all up... not too sure about the potato starch in it though... girl at the store recommended it.
Also got one can of Before Grain 100% Quail, Innova Evo 85% Duck (I think this duck might be better?) and 2 cans of Nature's Variety Instinct one lamb and one venison... wanted to try rabbit because I heard it was easy on their stomachs but neither store I went to had any rabbit in canned... there was some raw rabbit so maybe later when she's feeling better we can try some of that :)

Eating well today and asked to go outside... spend 1 1/2 hours sitting under her favorite tree... seems happier and so far only the bowel movements this morning. Have seen her drinking a couple of times too :)

Asked for probiotics... both stores had something called Prozyme? Haven't had time to investigate this... is this the best option or is a regular old probiotic better?

chico2
June 24th, 2008, 05:12 PM
Kim,Rockys poop smells up the whole house and I have the boxes in a downstairs bathroom,he also has some rotten-egg smelly kind of farts(sorry,could not think of another word)that makes hubby leave the room:laughing:
Hope Tangie continues to do good.:fingerscr
I will ask about the pro-biotics..

sugarcatmom
June 24th, 2008, 05:50 PM
Picked up some new food today to try...
Shredded Duck from FROMM

Does this sound any good?

There are definitely worse foods, but the potato content is a little high. For some variety here and there, it wouldn't hurt.


Also got one can of Before Grain 100% Quail,

The Before Grain canned foods from Merrick are just meat, no supplements, so they should only be fed intermittently or as treats.

Innova Evo 85% Duck (I think this duck might be better?)

I think the Evo is better than Fromm. But again, as an occasional meal it's fine.


Eating well today and asked to go outside... spend 1 1/2 hours sitting under her favorite tree... seems happier and so far only the bowel movements this morning.

Yippee for that! Hope she continues down her path of improvement.

Asked for probiotics... both stores had something called Prozyme? Haven't had time to investigate this... is this the best option or is a regular old probiotic better?


Prozyme (http://www.prozymestore.com/about.htm) is actually digestive enzymes, not probiotics. For probiotics you can use the ones for humans available at any health food store. Generally, you want something dairy-free, with a variety of different organisms, and fairly high potency so that you can use less per dose.

growler~GateKeeper
June 24th, 2008, 11:54 PM
Duffy is approx 12 lbs she gets one PB8 (http://www.nutritionnow.com/PB8.htm) probiotic capsule in breakfast and one in dinner for a daily total of 2 capsules. I just twist open the capsule and empty it into her food & mix it up. I have had a very hard time finding it in the health food stores here in BC but my homeopathic vet brings it in regularly so I buy it from him. You do not need a prescription for it, it is a human probiotic, so if you can't find it in a health food store where you are try a homeopathic/holistic vets see if they bring it in.

Another one is Wysong Pet Inoculant (http://www.wysong.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=WOTTPWS&Product_Code=PI011&Category_Code=SUP&Product_Count=10) Duffy was on this prior to the PB8, she was given 2cc per day. The Wysong is liquid & needs to be refridgerated & Duffy wasn't impressed with the taste :laughing:

kim1412
June 25th, 2008, 07:53 AM
:sorry: I don't know how to do direct quotes like you guys so this is all I could figure out

There are definitely worse foods, but the potato content is a little high. For some variety here and there, it wouldn't hurt.

I thought that seemed odd as one of the first 3 ingredients...
I think the Evo is better than Fromm. But again, as an occasional meal it's fine.
So I will try this one today and if she likes it I'll just buy this one from now on

The Before Grain canned foods from Merrick are just meat, no supplements, so they should only be fed intermittently or as treats
She had some of this for breakfast today... I will be sure to give a more nutritionally balanced meal later. I read somewhere that she should only be getting feed 2x/day is that right? She prob gets feed 4 x/day as she wasn't very good at spreading out her meals in the beginning of the switch to canned and would have a major pigout so I spread it out for her. The article I read (or several articles... been reading TOO much I think lol) said that it wasn't natural for cats to eat more than 2x/day. What are your thoughts on that...

Prozyme is actually digestive enzymes, not probiotics
So should she be getting both? Costs are adding up here... which would be better?
try a homeopathic/holistic vets see if they bring it in.
Unfortunately there is no holistic vet in my area. I did ask at the holistic pet store but they only had the prozyme. I will try my health food store and maybe we'll start tatking them together :)
The Wysong is liquid & needs to be refridgerated & Duffy wasn't impressed with the taste
I think I will try to find a powder with no taste. She's already getting pilled 2x/day and is just getting back to eating normally so I don't want to stress her anymore by messing with her food again.

smells up the whole house
Chico good to know that there is nothing wrong with smelly poops lol
I'm in a one bedroom granny suite and the smell totally takes over the apt! I bought some "Stink Free Air" http://www.stinkfreedirect.com/stink-free-air-for-pets/
room deodorizer to try and combat the odour and it helps ... a bit

Yippee for that! Hope she continues down her path of improvement
Thanks I hope so too :) Yesterday was a good day. She had another poop in the evening and it was runny but again it was in the litter box so a BIG improvement in my books :thumbs up
Her mood was pretty good yesterday and so far this morning she's feeling good again. :fingerscr
Thanks for all of your help and advice... you guys are great :grouphug:

sugarcatmom
June 25th, 2008, 08:24 AM
I read somewhere that she should only be getting feed 2x/day is that right?

The article I read (or several articles... been reading TOO much I think lol) said that it wasn't natural for cats to eat more than 2x/day. What are your thoughts on that...

I would feed her as often as she wants. While some cats CAN do fine with twice a day feeding, it's actually more natural for them to eat smaller meals more frequently (think of them eating several small mice or birds a day).


So should she be getting both? Costs are adding up here... which would be better?

I would go with the probiotics for now. Digestive enzymes are indicated more for something like pancreatic insufficiency.

Chico good to know that there is nothing wrong with smelly poops lol

Well, ideally poops aren't quite so smelly. That rankness indicates something isn't quite right with Tangie's digestive system. Hopefully some probiotics will help.

kim1412
June 25th, 2008, 08:32 AM
Well, ideally poops aren't quite so smelly. That rankness indicates something isn't quite right with Tangie's digestive system. Hopefully some probiotics will help.
I will try to get some this week... I have to wait until after she finishes her antibiotics so that gives me a few days to find a good one :)
If there is something wrong with her digestive system would the digestive enzymes in Prozyme then be good for her? Or will the probiotic be enough?

How do you do those individual quotes that relate back to the original email? I'm just cutting and pasting with the quote button on here...

Thanks,
Kim & Tangie

sugarcatmom
June 25th, 2008, 10:27 AM
IHow do you do those individual quotes that relate back to the original email? I'm just cutting and pasting with the quote button on here...

There's a button in the right hand bottom corner of each post that says "QUOTE", just hit that. If you want quotes from multiple posts, there is a button next to it with quotation marks, click on that for the various posts and then the "QUOTE" button for the last one you want to quote from. Hope that makes sense!

As for the Prozyme, you could try it eventually but I'd start with probiotics first and see how Tangie does on those. If you start too many things at once you won't know which one is working.

growler~GateKeeper
June 25th, 2008, 07:39 PM
Unfortunately there is no holistic vet in my area. I did ask at the holistic pet store but they only had the prozyme. I will try my health food store and maybe we'll start tatking them together :)

I think I will try to find a powder with no taste. She's already getting pilled 2x/day and is just getting back to eating normally so I don't want to stress her anymore by messing with her food again.

The PB8 is powder in a capsule I don't think it has a taste (I can't say for sure as I haven't licked it :laughing:) Duffy doesn't notice a flavour when I open the capsule & dump the contents into her food & mix it up :D

If you click on the Prices & Ordering button at the top of the link I gave it shows where you can purchase it or it is available for online ordering. I haven't used any other brands so I can't recommend anything else, perhaps someone else has another suggestion :shrug:

sugarcatmom
June 25th, 2008, 08:33 PM
For probiotics, I like Natural Factors Ultimate Probiotic (http://naturalfactors.com/search.asp?mode=cat&cat=36). It's available at pretty much every health food store. Has 12 billion organisms, 11 different kinds (to cover all the bases) and is non-dairy. With such a high potency, you really only need to use a miniscule amount per dose (if your going with the 2 billion organisms per dose, that's just 1/6th of a capsule). My cat gets so many meds and supplements added to his food as it is that I try to keep the overall volume of them as small as possible.

kim1412
June 25th, 2008, 09:53 PM
With such a high potency, you really only need to use a miniscule amount per dose (if your going with the 2 billion organisms per dose, that's just 1/6th of a capsule). My cat gets so many meds and supplements added to his food as it is that I try to keep the overall volume of them as small as possible.
Thanks for the suggestions. I like the sound of this one... less is better in my books. Hopefully be more cost effective if I have to give less...

Went to the store to pick up some Nature's Variety Instinct canned rabbit tonight, finally found a place that has it. They only had the 5oz cans in the cat section and when I asked for the big 12oz can the lady gave me the dog one? She said the ingredients are EXACTLY the same.... is that true? I'm hesitant to give it to her. I told her I felt a little uncomfrotable buying dog food for my cat but she insisted the formula was the same in both. Do you guys know if that is true?? I read the labels and the ingredients appear exactly the same and the guaranteed analysis is the same as well. The only difference it appears is that the taurine is just not listed in the guaranteed analyisis on the dog can because they don't care about taurine but it is listed in the ingredients in exactly the same order so it's there.

Any thoughts on this??

growler~GateKeeper
June 25th, 2008, 10:50 PM
Yup with the Nature's Variety (and there's another brand called Evo) 95% meat the ingredients & nutrient analysis are exactly the same & the taurine content is the same as well

http://www.naturesvariety.com/instinct_cat_can_rabbit
http://www.naturesvariety.com/instinct_dog_can_rabbit

You cannot feed dog food to cats because of the improper balance of taurine etc, *except for Evo, Nature's Variety 95% meat varieties but you should always still check the nutrient analysis against the cat food can to be sure

killmo
June 25th, 2009, 03:37 PM
This is my first post on this forum. My 11 y/o male cat was just diagnosed with hyperthyroidism. The Dr. has suggested we start him on Tapazole 1/2 tab twice daily (5mg tab). Of course I am quite concerned about possible side effects since right now his coat is gorgeous, he is very active and loving life but have agreed to try it. They've caught it very early since in Feb he was marginal for hyperthyroidism and last November his lab values were normal but the Vet did detect what he thought was a nodule on the thyroid hence the return visit and repeat of labs in Feb and now June. The Vet has not discussed ionradiation rx yet but I am interested in this and truly the cost is not an issue with me. I certainly may push for this if he shows any side effects particularly depression or anorexia. His biggest issue now is a 1 lb weight loss since February and an elevated liver enzyme likely caused by the hyperthyroid. He eats like a pig and plays like a kitten. I'm glad to read that many do not have problems with the med.

I truly wonder whether this could be caused by stress. His littermate and sister died of FIP last November and he went through a quite intense and amazing depression and grieving cycle over her loss. He has bounced back to his old happy self since I adopted another older female in March. She is perfect for him and I could not have chosen a better roommate for him.

chico2
June 25th, 2009, 05:04 PM
Hi killmo.as you can see the original post is from 2008,if you want to discuss the RAID treatment,it's better you start a new post,in the cat-health Forum.

kim1412
June 26th, 2009, 12:36 AM
Hi Killmo :)

I started this thread last summer when my cat was going through starting treatment for hyperthyroid. I didn't see any of the signs either... I took her in because she had REALLY bad diarrhea. After her diagnosis I was shocked and concerned and did tons of research on this site and others. The folks here were great and gave me tons of help. This is another website you might try for info on the RAID treatment
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-hyperT/

As my cat was 14 yrs old and not really feeling well I did not consider this an option for her, plus the cost was too much for me but you may find additional helpful info there.

I'm happy to say that Tangie is doing GREAT! She started on 1/2 tab x 2 per day of the tapazole but it turned out to be too much for her, she's quite little. She now takes 1/4 tab x 2 per day and is just fine. Her bathroom issues we resolved with a combination, I think, of change in diet and perhaps the medication. She did have a worsening of the diarrhea at first but was soon on the mend.

She is happy and healthy and more playful now than ever! Her thyroid has been under control for almost a year now. I'm so glad for the help I received on this site. It was a very stressful time for me and I was so worried about her diagnosis. I had never heard of hyperthyroid in cats and looking on the internet was terrifying.

I hope everything works out for you guys :) keep reading this site, there are so many helpful and knowledgeable people on here I'm sure you will find all of your answers.

Best wishes,
Kim and Tangie

growler~GateKeeper
June 26th, 2009, 01:54 AM
This is my first post on this forum. My 11 y/o male cat was just diagnosed with hyperthyroidism. The Dr. has suggested we start him on Tapazole 1/2 tab twice daily (5mg tab). Of course I am quite concerned about possible side effects since right now his coat is gorgeous, he is very active and loving life but have agreed to try it. They've caught it very early since in Feb he was marginal for hyperthyroidism and last November his lab values were normal but the Vet did detect what he thought was a nodule on the thyroid hence the return visit and repeat of labs in Feb and now June. The Vet has not discussed ionradiation rx yet but I am interested in this and truly the cost is not an issue with me. I certainly may push for this if he shows any side effects particularly depression or anorexia. His biggest issue now is a 1 lb weight loss since February and an elevated liver enzyme likely caused by the hyperthyroid. He eats like a pig and plays like a kitten. I'm glad to read that many do not have problems with the med.

I truly wonder whether this could be caused by stress. His littermate and sister died of FIP last November and he went through a quite intense and amazing depression and grieving cycle over her loss. He has bounced back to his old happy self since I adopted another older female in March. She is perfect for him and I could not have chosen a better roommate for him.

killmo Most vets want to try to stabilize the thyroid with Tapazole before opting for other treatments or to just use it as the primary treatment as most cats do well on it.

There is the possibility in older cats that there might also be an as yet unknown kidney issue that is hidden by the HyperT. Treating & stabilizing the HyperT will allow the vet to see if there is anything else of concern which in your case would be the potential liver issue. If once the HyperT is stable, the liver enzymes return to normal they you know that was the cause and can proceed with other treatment options if you wish.

Here is my experience with RaId: http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=42220 cost is a concern for many people but so is location. Treatment is very specialized and not available in every city.

This is a website designed/run by the clinic I went to for RaId treatment with tons of info as this is the only thing they do: http://www.iodinecafe.com/

There is also more info on HyperT here: http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=60971

As for the stress/grief factor playing a part in your cats diagnosis - absolutely! My first Homeopath Vet explained to me that all changes in life most especially the traumatic/life altering ones ie death of a pet or family member, moving to new homes or to new families, family members leaving ie divorce, new family members arriving either human or pet etc all have an effect on our pets and that will manifest itself in different ways in their physical health.

:goodvibes: to you & your kitty - what's his name btw? :D


Kim I am so happy to hear Tangie is doing so well :highfive: Any chance we could get a current pic of her? :D

killmo
June 26th, 2009, 12:38 PM
killmo Most vets want to try to stabilize the thyroid with Tapazole before opting for other treatments or to just use it as the primary treatment as most cats do well on it.

There is the possibility in older cats that there might also be an as yet unknown kidney issue that is hidden by the HyperT. Treating & stabilizing the HyperT will allow the vet to see if there is anything else of concern which in your case would be the potential liver issue. If once the HyperT is stable, the liver enzymes return to normal they you know that was the cause and can proceed with other treatment options if you wish.

Here is my experience with RaId: http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=42220 cost is a concern for many people but so is location. Treatment is very specialized and not available in every city.

This is a website designed/run by the clinic I went to for RaId treatment with tons of info as this is the only thing they do: http://www.iodinecafe.com/

There is also more info on HyperT here: http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=60971

As for the stress/grief factor playing a part in your cats diagnosis - absolutely! My first Homeopath Vet explained to me that all changes in life most especially the traumatic/life altering ones ie death of a pet or family member, moving to new homes or to new families, family members leaving ie divorce, new family members arriving either human or pet etc all have an effect on our pets and that will manifest itself in different ways in their physical health.

:goodvibes: to you & your kitty - what's his name btw? :D


Kim I am so happy to hear Tangie is doing so well :highfive: Any chance we could get a current pic of her? :D

Growler...thanks so much for all the information. Been reading up on this and now realize that he has to be stabilized on the med first before any kidney disease can be r/o. The Vet did seem to think his kidneys were likely good since upon palpation they were very smooth and normally sized. Vet said that with CRF the kidneys have a spongy, bumpy sort of feel. So I am crossing my fingers that there is no underlying kidney disease and that he will be a candidate for ionradiation. There is a facility about 60 miles from me that specializes in this. Not that the cost wouldn't hurt the pocketbook but for me it is very doable. I will discuss this possibility with the Vet when Mr. Killmouseki aka killmo (hence my screen name) returns on July 24th. He is taking the med without a problem...loves those pill pockets! Of course, he's only had 2 doses so side effects remain to be seen. Thank you so much for sharing your experience about the rad rx. It makes me more prone to do this for him if he is a candidate!

killmo
June 26th, 2009, 12:50 PM
Thanks kim for sharing your experience with the meds. Glad to hear your kitty is doing so well on them. I obviously have some time before I make a decision but first I have to see how he tolerates the meds as the next few weeks pass. And, thank you for the link to the group. I shall take you up on that invite!:)

growler~GateKeeper
June 27th, 2009, 12:38 AM
Growler...thanks so much for all the information. Been reading up on this and now realize that he has to be stabilized on the med first before any kidney disease can be r/o. The Vet did seem to think his kidneys were likely good since upon palpation they were very smooth and normally sized. Vet said that with CRF the kidneys have a spongy, bumpy sort of feel. So I am crossing my fingers that there is no underlying kidney disease and that he will be a candidate for ionradiation. There is a facility about 60 miles from me that specializes in this. Not that the cost wouldn't hurt the pocketbook but for me it is very doable. I will discuss this possibility with the Vet when Mr. Killmouseki aka killmo (hence my screen name) returns on July 24th. He is taking the med without a problem...loves those pill pockets! Of course, he's only had 2 doses so side effects remain to be seen. Thank you so much for sharing your experience about the rad rx. It makes me more prone to do this for him if he is a candidate!

:laughing: Love the name Killmouseki :thumbs up :D

In addition to ruling out CRF most vets prefer to stabilize the number before opting for surgery or RaId - makes it easier if the levels are normal & there's not so much extra hormones in the body. My grrl however was just a tiny bit over the high end of normal when she was diagnosed, I had her retested 3 months later & her T4 was still the same so I opted to go straight into RaId treatment without meds first.

Do you know what the actual T4 number is and the ref range for your lab?

Yes all that info on the CRF is true, my RaId treated cat also has CRF - from tainted pet food :mad: years after the RaId - so if you have any questions about CRF as well let me know, and of course if you have any other questions about HyperT feel free to ask. :D

:goodvibes: for Killmo

PMFan
June 28th, 2009, 12:39 PM
hello

i haven't read all the replies so someone else may have mentioned this.

curing hyperthyroidism can unmask kidney insufficiency/failure. this is the case with my kitty who had the iodine treatment in early Jan 2009.

i don't regret having the procedure done; however (even tho i was not informed of this possible outcome) if i were to do it over again i would

1. ensure T4 reached NORMAL range from the tapazole BEFORE determining best treatment
2. when T4 is normal range while on tapazole, recheck blood work for kidney functioin indicators (BUN/CREA/PHOS, etc).
3. check urine specific gravity (kidney function indicator)
4. obtain copies all lab results from the vet.
5. if BUN/CREA elevate while T4 is in normal range on tapazole, discuss pros/cons of permanent cure (surgery/iodine) w/ vet.

killmo
June 29th, 2009, 01:11 PM
:laughing: Love the name Killmouseki :thumbs up :D

In addition to ruling out CRF most vets prefer to stabilize the number before opting for surgery or RaId - makes it easier if the levels are normal & there's not so much extra hormones in the body. My grrl however was just a tiny bit over the high end of normal when she was diagnosed, I had her retested 3 months later & her T4 was still the same so I opted to go straight into RaId treatment without meds first.

Do you know what the actual T4 number is and the ref range for your lab?

Yes all that info on the CRF is true, my RaId treated cat also has CRF - from tainted pet food :mad: years after the RaId - so if you have any questions about CRF as well let me know, and of course if you have any other questions about HyperT feel free to ask. :D

:goodvibes: for Killmo


Thanks growler! I've had a cat with CRF and certainly understand the ramifications of doing a cure only to unmask the CRF so before I make any decision will first get Mr. K stabilized on the Tapazole and then have a full urinalysis done.

Mr K's T4 number is actually WNL at 3.4 (range .8-4.0) but his Free T4 is elevated to 71 (range 10-50). The Vet said that with the weight loss, the high Free T4, high end of normal on the T4 and the elevated liver value (Alt was 171 and over 100 is abnormal) that this all points to a HyperT.

Having the rad done is a big decision for me so I am going to take my time making that decision. First I'll see how he does on the meds and whether he can be stabilized quickly on the dose. Then I'll tackle the idea of radiation.

And, thanks to PMFAN for giving me a protocol for the CRF.

Luckily for me giving Mr.K the tapazole has turned into treat time for him. He loves those pill pockets and is chomping at the bit to get his meds now. LOL.

growler~GateKeeper
June 29th, 2009, 11:26 PM
Mr K's T4 number is actually WNL at 3.4 (range .8-4.0) but his Free T4 is elevated to 71 (range 10-50). The Vet said that with the weight loss, the high Free T4, high end of normal on the T4 and the elevated liver value (Alt was 171 and over 100 is abnormal) that this all points to a HyperT.

Having the rad done is a big decision for me so I am going to take my time making that decision. First I'll see how he does on the meds and whether he can be stabilized quickly on the dose. Then I'll tackle the idea of radiation.

Having a high normal Total T4 and an elevated Free T4 in a senior cats is a definate for HyperT. Given that the TT4 & Free T4 are not extremely high I want to mention if you do decide to go for the RaId, they will likely give a slightly lower dose than they would give a cat with really high numbers and even so there is still a possibility for the cat become Hypothyroid after treatment and may need Thyroid supplements until the number rises back into normal. This was the case with my cat when she was treated her T4 was slightly high at 45 SI units (normal range was 18-40 SI units) and she had below normal T4 levels for about 8 months before it came back up into normal, she however was not showing any side effects so I didn't need to supplement her.

kim1412
July 11th, 2009, 03:28 PM
Hi, hope Mr. K is doing well on the tapazole and no side effects?

Kim I am so happy to hear Tangie is doing so well Any chance we could get a current pic of her?

Tangie really looks no different but here's one from today.
Not really sure how to do this so hope this works :)

54783

ok, it's kind of a giant pic not sure how to make it smaller though.

chico2
July 11th, 2009, 05:06 PM
Kim,glad to hear Tangie is doing so well,my Rocky too is ok,had kind of a greasy fur for a while,with a couple of matts but it's nice and soft again.
I am taking Rocky for an appointment at the vet on Monday,I think he might be getting too much meds at 2X5mg daily,so we'll see.
Also his eyes have this grayish shadow in the corners,so I am worried about eventual blindness,but I am probably over-reacting,as usual.:yell:
Tangie looks her beautiful self in the pic:lovestruck:

growler~GateKeeper
July 11th, 2009, 11:03 PM
Awww Tangie is so purrrrty :lovestruck: Thanks for the pic Kim :D, it's nice to see she is doing so well :thumbs up

killmo
July 27th, 2009, 11:26 AM
Thought I would update on Mr. Killmo. He's doing great on the tapazole! Very few side effects..in fact really none. He's had a couple bouts of nausea but just a couple and he is now on his second month of the meds. He's gained 1/2lb per his Vet followup last week. Still waiting on the blood work.

I've discussed the radio-iodine rx with the Vet briefly but will have a more significant discussion about this in the near future. I'm leaning towards this for January when I know I will be home for the period needed to deal with the aftercare. I've already gotten my sister to agree to take in Ms Jezziebell for a couple weeks when the time comes.

growler~GateKeeper
July 28th, 2009, 12:16 AM
Great update :thumbs up it's excellent when there are no side effects. :highfive: for the weight gain that's a sign it's starting to come under control better

:goodvibes: for the bloodwork, let us know how it turns out

killmo
July 31st, 2009, 02:16 PM
Well I certainly got one big surprise today when the Vet called with killmo's lab results. The 5mg of tapazole a day has resulted in his hyperT values just plummeting big time. His T4 dropped from 3.4 to .3 and his free T4 has dropped from 71 to 7! The Vet recommended cutting the dose to 2.5mg once a day and will retest in 6 weeks. If the T values continue to be low he will just take him off the meds and retest in 6 mos. The Vet also wants a urinalysis to r/o early CRF which I am in full agreement with and will have that done in 6 weeks.

killmo
July 31st, 2009, 02:19 PM
You know, I rather suspect killmo will be taken off the meds. My poor boy has had alot of stressors in the past 9 months but those stressors are now gone. He lost his sister unexpectedly and went through a significant grieving process and then the stressor of introducing a new cat occurred in March. My intuition tells me that the HyperT values were caused by stress and I think now that things are pretty normal and happy around here that the Thyroid might just stabilize itself.

growler~GateKeeper
August 1st, 2009, 12:11 AM
killmo great T results :thumbs up :goodvibes: :fingerscr for the kidney test. Losing a lifelong companion affects our pets more than most people realize, my first Homeopath vet said the loss of Duffy's furry companions and then moving was the likely cause of Duffy's HyperT