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Depo Medrol vs Presnisone

Winston
May 19th, 2008, 02:13 PM
My moms cat Brady has Rodent Lip or Rodent Ulcer. He has been to the vet and they prescribed prednsone. During the visit we discussed him being given a shot of depo. The vet indicated that it has been responsible for the onset of diabetes. So my mother was really freaked out and chose the course of prednisone. Well it has been over a year and although the prednisone cleared up the majority of the sores on his feet, his mouth is still a problem.

Of course they said he had to have the Hills ZD and we gratiously took a bag and then switched him to Orijen which he loves. We have pretty much ruled out household allergies.

To make a long story short we have not been able to get him back to the vet and he is off the prednsone. I will be going to a new vet with mom and am wondering what people thought of him getting the shot.?? My moms fear is that Brady will get diabetes and she will not be able to give him needles. She does not want to loose him, as she has suffered some great losses over the past few years. Brady is only 5 ys old I think.

Any thoughts?

Cindy

sugarcatmom
May 19th, 2008, 03:15 PM
The thing is, both injected and long-term oral corticosteriods can have side-effects such as diabetes. And all they do is suppress the symptoms, they do nothing to address the source of the issue. Since another big risk factor for developing diabetes is feeding dry food, how would your mom feel about switching Brady to a meat-based (and grain-free) wet food and getting rid of all kibble? Trying one of the high quality novel protein canned foods (like Evo 95% venison or duck, or Nature's Variety rabbit) could very well help with the rodent ulcer issue, as well as greatly diminish any likelihood of diabetes.

Winston
May 19th, 2008, 03:25 PM
Sugarcatmom! Brady could probably be changed over to wet pretty easy. I have not tried it with him yet. He is a food pig and gained alot of weight when my mom first got him. He begs for food...She was giving it to him all the time and now he is on a pretty strict schedule for feeding. He adapted well when I changed him over to the better quality dry.

How should I start the transition over? He is about 12 pounds. He eats only dry? I will need to do some price comparisons for mom so I can help her budget in the wet?

Does he need variety? I actually thought of trying him with raw? the natures variety that I bought for my two?

Cindy

sugarcatmom
May 19th, 2008, 04:40 PM
How should I start the transition over? He is about 12 pounds.

Depends on how readily Brady accepts wet food. He has youth on his side, but sometimes cats can be very set in their ways about what they think is edible. New textures and smells are often met with disdain at first. Hopefully that isn't the case with Brady, but if it is, there are some tips for transitioning to canned on this website: http://www.catinfo.org/#Transitioning_Dry_Food_Addicts_to_Canned_Food_

You could start by just putting a tsp or 2 on a plate next to his regular food. If he eats it great, if not, just leave it there for a few hours. At the next meal, do the same, and keep doing it for several days. Even if he doesn't ever eat it during that time, he should get used to the smell, which is half the battle. Eventually you can start putting a teensy bit in with his dry food so that he maybe inadvertently eats it. Slowly increase (could be over days or weeks, depending on the cat) the amount of wet in proportion to dry.

Other tricks if he's a reluctant participant are to sprinkle the wet with some pulverized dry food or treats, to mix a small amount with something uber tasty like plain chicken baby food or tuna juice, or dusting it with freeze-dried meat powder (like Halo Liv-a-Littles or Real Food Toppers).

If you're one of the lucky ones and he goes for canned right away, then I would cut his dry food portion in half for a few days and feed him maybe half to 3/4 of a 5.5oz can per day. See if he has any intestinal issues with the change and if not, you're good to go. If 12lbs is an appropriate weight for him, he needs somewhere around 20-30 calories per pound per day for maintenance. Using the Evo 95% Duck as an example, which has 215 cal/can, he would need approximately 1.5 cans/day. Adjust accordingly (since this isn't an exact science - feed less if he gains weight, feed more if he acts unusually ravenous and/or loses weight).

Does he need variety? I actually thought of trying him with raw? the natures variety that I bought for my two?


How much variety he needs depends on him. I found that most cats, while they can eat the same dry food day in day out for their entire lives, get tired of eating the same canned food. But other cats have super sensitive digestive systems and need a gradual change-over to avoid GI problems. With my guy, I have to rotate flavours/brands with every meal (he also has an iron stomach) or he goes on a hunger strike. Some people mix it up every few days. You and your mom will eventually work out a system that suits Brady. Start with a few different varieties to see what he likes and go from there.

As for raw, that would be most excellent! The Nature's Variety ones are great and very convenient. Maybe stay away from anything with chicken or turkey for now (since those are in Orijen and it's possible Brady has developed sensitivities to them), but the rabbit, lamb, venison or beef should be fine (be aware though that beef can be more allergenic for some cats). Follow the same sort of transitioning as for canned food, although be prepared for increased resistance since raw is even more foreign to many cat's taste buds and sense of smell.

Good luck! Let me know how it goes.

Winston
May 19th, 2008, 05:17 PM
Thank you...I am going to discuss with mom. I am pretty sure I can get her on board for at least the canned for now...What are your thoughts on the Wellness canned? I have been trying those with my 2 and they only seem to like beef & salmon watered down.. I mxied some raw in it today..(just a pinch cause they snubbed it last time) Bomber ate it but Tabitha didnt want it....

Cindy

sugarcatmom
May 19th, 2008, 05:28 PM
I really like Wellness. One problem might be that all of the flavours have chicken in them except for the Beef & Salmon, so if Brady has an issue with chicken (which we don't know yet, but it's a possibility) then those wouldn't be the best option.

Winston
May 19th, 2008, 06:41 PM
Does the evo have the no grain as well? Duh! I guess I could look that up. Just wondering some things I have read indicate that the disease is due to immune system problems and also allergens? so what kind of food would be best for allergy issues? or is there such a thing? When he was given the food from the vet it was Hills ZD? they said cause of allergies?

Do you think it is worth trying the shot vs the continuous use of prednisone? I keep asking myself what are the chances he would get diabetes from a couple of shots? but with our luck it would happen?

Cindy

sugarcatmom
May 19th, 2008, 09:42 PM
Does the evo have the no grain as well?

Yup, but I would stay away from the Evo Cat and Kitten canned. It has too many protein sources (turkey, chicken, herring, salmon, eggs, cottage cheese) and is really high in phosphorus. The "95%" varieties are the ones you want (particularly duck (http://www.evopet.com/products/default.asp?id=1663) and venison (http://www.evopet.com/products/default.asp?id=1665)).

Nature's Variety Instinct (http://www.naturesvariety.com/content.lasso?r=2042997&page=1494&-session=naturesvariety:4492C0A80cac427C60Nlqr83ABA 6) is the other line of canned that would be good (not their "Prairie" line, which does have grains).

Just wondering some things I have read indicate that the disease is due to immune system problems and also allergens?

That's right, and food allergies typically develop in response to the proteins of a substance, whether it be grains (corn, wheat and soy are particularly bad) or meat (commonly fish, chicken or beef).

. . . . so what kind of food would be best for allergy issues? or is there such a thing?

That's where using a novel protein (one that the cat hasn't had before) comes in.

When he was given the food from the vet it was Hills ZD? they said cause of allergies?

Ya, Z/D is commonly prescribed for allergies. That's because it uses hydrolyzed chicken for a protein source (which is basically protein broken down into molecules too small for the cat to recognize as antigenic). My issue with Z/D (and all Hill's products) is how lousy the ingredients are:

Brewers Rice, Hydrolyzed Chicken Liver, Hydrolyzed Chicken, Soybean Oil (preserved with BHA, propyl gallate and citric acid), Powdered Cellulose, .... Ethoxyquin (a preservative), Beta-Carotene.

Yuck. Cats are carnivores and should be fed as such. A meat-based, high protein, low carb wet food is ideal for felines across the board. It's what they've evolved eating. So even if Brady's rodent ulcer is not a direct result of a food allergy, providing the best nutrition possible to a cat with some sort of immune system issue can go a long way towards putting the apple-cart right.

Do you think it is worth trying the shot vs the continuous use of prednisone? I keep asking myself what are the chances he would get diabetes from a couple of shots? but with our luck it would happen?

I would stay with the oral pred, with the goal of hopefully weaning Brady off of it by feeding him a species appropriate diet. You have more control over the oral dose than you do with the injection, which is a big load all at once that you can't take back afterwards. Again, the pred only masks the symptoms, so if the source of the problem isn't dealt with he would keep needing more and more steroids. Not ideal. There are some natural immune system modulators (like colostrum) that could be useful if the diet change alone doesn't do the trick, but we can get into that later if you or your mom are interested. I think for now, focusing on diet should help.

Love4himies
May 20th, 2008, 08:01 AM
My daughter's cat, ginger (krazy4kittens) has that and her cat can't eat orijen. She is now having some luck with Natural Balance Duck and Green Pea, canned and some kibble. She also changed kitty litter to the pine clumping. I think her vet actually mentioned a raw diet for Ginger.

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=42431&page=2

Good luck.

Winston
May 21st, 2008, 06:29 PM
Sugarcatmom Brady has been off the prednisone now for over a month...the sad part is that my mom has been going through a really tough bought of problems and she did not get it renewed when it ran out so he was taken off cold turkey...now he has shown no problems that we can see...

I went looking for the Evo tonight and I cant get it close to me without a hassle..is there another brand that might be similiar? With Brady I am pretty sure that whatever we feed him he will eat..he is food motivated thats for sure!! ...My mom was feeding him everytime he cried for food and he gained weight quickly...vet told mom to cut it back and she listened..he had her wrapped around his squishy little finger!! :laughing: I asked her why she was feeding him so much and she said she felt bad for him ?? why ? cause he was a stray and she didnt want him to ever want for food again! :wall::wall: we fixed that real quick!

I am also going to ask for some blood work for him too..he was a rescue and we have never had a reason to get it done but I learned that at some point we may need it as a reference..

Cindy

sugarcatmom
May 21st, 2008, 07:54 PM
he was taken off cold turkey...now he has shown no problems that we can see...

Oops. It would have been better if Brady was weaned off the pred gradually, but what's done is done. Sounds like he was okay regardless. http://www.marvistavet.com/html/prednisone.html

Prednisone/prednisolone are commonly used for several weeks or even months at a time to get a chronic process under control. It is important that the dose be tapered to an every other day schedule once the condition is controlled. The reason for this is that body will perceive these hormones and not produce any of its own. In time, the adrenal glands will atrophy so that when the medication is discontinued, the patient will be unable to respond to any stressful situation. An actual circulatory crisis can result. By using the medication every other day, this allows the body's own adrenal glands to remain active.



I went looking for the Evo tonight and I cant get it close to me without a hassle..is there another brand that might be similiar?

Hmmm, do you have a PetSmart near you? They carry a brand called By Nature (http://www.bynaturepetfoods.com/productpages/catmain.php) that has simple ingredients, although they don't have one with a novel protein source. I would stick to the Turkey & Turkey Liver or Beef & Liver, avoiding fish and chicken for now.

You could also look for canned Natural Balance (http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/allergy/home.html) in Venison & Green Pea or Duck & Green Pea. Here's the store locator for Hamilton: http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/home/can_cities.tpl

If I think of anything else, I'll let you know.:)

Winston
May 21st, 2008, 09:04 PM
Ive seen this brand and can get that one! I will try that one! Thanks again for all your info! It is much appreciated...I have been trying to wrap my head around food and it is a challenge to say the least!

Cindy
:thumbs up

Winston
May 22nd, 2008, 06:25 PM
Okay I am sooo happy right now! may seem small to some but its huge for us! I went and bought the Venison and pea formula for Brady and thought hmm have not tried this one for my two! I have almost given up trying foods with them because they dont like any canned food..all they have ever eaten is kibble right from the time they were kittens..anyway Tabitha is the worst! she will smell it and walk away...Bomber is a little more adventerous..he will lick it and try it and then decide..

So I gave them each a teaspoon...( I know its not much but they are really small and they wont eat anymore than that! ) Tabitha ate EVERYTHING!!! she scorfed it up like a little pig!! she licked the bowl clean!! she even put big pieces in her mouth which she NEVER does! and Bomber showed me his other side tonight..he is a pig too! he eats faster than Tabitha so he went right after her food...I am glad I stuck around to watch them eat so I could keep him away from her food! :laughing: I had to keep my finger pointed at him so she could eat hers! this is something I never really noticed before because they are free fed the kibble..

Thankyou Sugarcatmom for the suggestion!! I hope she keeps this up and maybe I can switch them over!!!!!

Cindy
:thumbs up

sugarcatmom
May 22nd, 2008, 07:01 PM
Yippee! That makes me soooooo happy! I can just picture them stuffing their little mouths like kids eating ice cream. Very cool. :thumbs up

Winston
May 22nd, 2008, 08:19 PM
I am going to try to give them some more in the morning but I am wondering if I should not push it? I dont want it to afffect their poops? or tummies?

Hubby thinks I am nuts cause I am sooo happy!

Cindy

Winston
June 3rd, 2008, 09:19 PM
The food never solved the problem really ? so I chose to go with the better quality food. We have been delaying taking him to a new vet but are hoping to get there next week. I will let you know what the new vet says.

On a side note my little girl has snubbed every food made BUT she seems to love the Venison and Green Pea...so far so good anyway? have you tried that?

Cindy

14+kitties
June 3rd, 2008, 09:36 PM
On a side note my little girl has snubbed every food made BUT she seems to love the Venison and Green Pea...so far so good anyway? have you tried that?

Cindy

I am so glad Tabitha has found a food she likes! That is great. :thumbs up
One question - have you found a difference in their bowel habits? I need to find something for little picky pants here. He has already started to show disinterest in the Eagle Pack and it's only been a little over a week. But I need to find something that won't give him the scoots again.

Winston
June 13th, 2008, 09:02 PM
Just thought I would post an update!

Tabitha and Bomber LOVE this food! They are driving me crazy when they think they should eat! I still cannot beleive my eyes when I see them eat it! Today I fed them and Bomber actually walked away leaving some morsels stuck to the dish ...well to my surprise my finicky little princess who would have no canned food period went in to clean up...she licked his bowl clean and went back to hers!

I wont know for sure until I take them both in for their check up but I really think they have eached gained a bit of weight! which I have not seen them ever do! They each have been exactly 6 and 8 pounds since they were young..vet never worried that they were the exact weight year in year out! Tabitha is pretty boney in her back end but now it seems to be maybe filling out! I hope so...

I am so happy that they have not gotten sick of it yet.. tonight I grabbed a can of duck and green pea..to see if they will like that one....keeping my paws crossed!

Cindy

Winston
June 17th, 2008, 10:33 PM
Yeah for Duck and Green Pea! Tabitha and Bomber love that one too! I tell you I have never seen them eat any canned food the way they eat this stuff! rather than licking they are biting it!! and can I tell you how much they bug me for food now! I have really cut back substantially on the kibble but still feel they dont eat enough without it?

Cindy

So we have success with Venison and Green Pea and Duck with Green Pea...