Pets.ca - Pet forum for dogs cats and humans 

-->

old age - Baytril in cats - Answered by Dr. Lee

cpietra16
May 18th, 2008, 08:23 PM
This week Chrunchie my 17 years old kitty started having blood in her urine, so off to the vet she went, and back she came with some baytril. Winnie her buddy and companion was always at her side. A few mornings ago , Winnie ( my 10 1/2 year ols lab) woke up and refused to get up. She cried with Chrunchie by her side. She wouldn't let me near her..so with some coaxing and kisses I finally got her to the vets...and sure enough her hips are giving out on her. She's been on Glucosimine for 2 years as preventative but unfortunately her weight and age won out. Her blood panel came out great so they put her on anti-inflammatories until the next episode....I really thought that all my guys would live forever....and then reality strikes:sad: They have been so healthy for so long, I guess age caught up...

clm
May 18th, 2008, 08:41 PM
It does seem like they get old all of a sudden doesn't it. They're both beautiful. I hope that they both start feeling better soon.

Cindy

Dr Lee
May 18th, 2008, 10:17 PM
This week Chrunchie my 17 years old kitty started having blood in her urine, so off to the vet she went, and back she came with some baytril.

Why was your cat placed on baytril versus another medication? Was there a culture that indicated baytril? No other alternatives?

Baytril has some problems with cats and especially a 17 year old cat. Here are the concerns.

1)"Higher doses (>5 mg/kg/day) not recommended in cats; may cause blindness" -Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook Fifth edition. What is the dosage on baytril for cats? 5mg/kg/day. This is difficult to dose and be right at the dose. Do not want to go too low and be ineffective or too high and run into the aforementioned risk. The North American Companion Animal Formulary gives the same description and dosage. Usually doses are given in ranges like baytril is given with dogs as 5-20mg/kg/day (Plumb).

2) "Caution: hepatic or renal insufficiency, dehydration" -Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook Fifth edition. Now how likely is it that 17 year old cat kidneys are not working at their full 100%? Renal (kidney) insufficiency is very common in older cats and almost assumed until proven otherwise in a 17 year old cat.

Just my concern upon reading your post and obviously not knowing the whole story. :pawprint:

Dr Lee
May 18th, 2008, 10:22 PM
For dogs with OA (osteoarthritis), I would recommend the following nutriceudicals in addition to glucosamine....

1) Chondroitin (often paired with glucosamine)
2) MSM (also often paired with glucosamine)
3) Omega 3 fatty acids with as much EPA (eicosapentanoic acid) as possible
4) Antioxidants

The omega 3 fatty acids also help the kidney function and health which can help the patient deal with the effects of the NSAIDs.

Tramadol is another medication that can be added safely if all the others together are not enough. Also physical therapy, magnet therapy, accupuncture, and K-Laser therapy can help. :pawprint:

cpietra16
May 19th, 2008, 11:14 AM
Thank-you for your input Dr. Lee. Crunchie is on 15mg/1 pill a day for 10 days. The doctor asuumed it was an infection...no blood sample taken...She told me to try her on the med and see what happens. The blood is no longer in her urine. I should mention that she was on the same dosage back in October. She was given the same meds. Baytril/ 15mgs/ 10 days.

As for Winnie thank-you I will supplement her diet...As for Crunchie I call and bring her in and ask for blood/ urine sample.

Frenchy
May 19th, 2008, 11:16 AM
I'm so sorry Cpietra , it's hard to see our fuzzbutts get old. Did they say why Chrunchie had blood in her urine ? I know I keep repeating myself but , since Paddy had his urine blockage and made the switch to raw diet , every is fine and I can't believe how cheaper the raw diet is for cats , compare to premium canned food , and IMO , much better.

For Winnie , sometimes a bit of anti-inflammatories is just what they need to get a bit better. Sam has been on Deramaxx (not a med you can keep giving them long term though) and he's been doing pretty good.

Good luck with your oldies :grouphug:

Rottielover
May 19th, 2008, 11:23 AM
Cpietra, I know this must be getting really hard for you, but Winnie still has her spunk, I saw it the last time I was there, Old age is hard, especially watching our pets go through it.
I am glad crunchie blood is gone, at least that is a good sign...

spazsmom
May 21st, 2008, 11:27 AM
My cat, Spaz, was diagnosed with a urinary infection (no blood) late last week and was put on Baytril, 22.7 mg. once daily (too much for his weight?). Since being on that, he has become lethargic, lost a pound (down to 5 pounds now), and has lost his appetite. He was so dehydrated he had to be given IV fluids all day Monday at the vet's office. I am very worried about him. He's not the same "Spaz" as he used to be. He is 14 years old and has lost a lot of weight in the last year (down from 9 pounds to now just 5 pounds since being on Batril). He was 6 pounds before going on Baytril. Any causes of the weight loss and lethargy would be appreciated.

Love4himies
May 21st, 2008, 11:35 AM
Snowball who was in renal failure was put on Baytril and DID NOT do well at all, he stopped eating and never recovered. I don't know if it was from the Baytril, or his other health issues but I know I will never give baytril to my cats again.

mastifflover
May 21st, 2008, 11:45 AM
I would suggest calling your vet and maybe he could give you another antibiotic. I used to use Baytril for Buddy and I know it is a strong antibiotic maybe too strong for your cat. I hope your kitty recovers soon

cpietra16
May 21st, 2008, 12:28 PM
This is her second dose of Baytril. She had her first in October and it worked. Her urine was clear after 2 days and she was on it for 10 days. Now she got blood in her urine once again and was given the same medication, probably because it worked the last time. Unfortunately, all I had to do was call the Doctor and let her know that the same symptoms wee back and she gave me another perscription without seeing Crunchie. Mind you , I did apreciate this because Crunchie is old and I didn't want to stress her anymore than I had to with the car ride. However I didn't realise then and now how dangerous Baytril really is on a cat.....
Crunchie is doing better and has no indication of blood in her urine, noe I hope this continues and she will not need more meds in 7 months....:sad::sick:

Dr Lee
May 21st, 2008, 02:16 PM
My cat, Spaz, was diagnosed with a urinary infection (no blood) late last week and was put on Baytril, 22.7 mg. once daily (too much for his weight?). He was 6 pounds before going on Baytril. Any causes of the weight loss and lethargy would be appreciated.

Calculating Baytril dose. If we are looking at a dose of 5mg/kg/day and the cat is 6lbs. Remember there are 2.2 lbs in a kg. Then here is the math...

6lbs divided by 2.2 = 2.73kg
(2.73kg)(5mg/kg) = 13.63mg per day

This is the difficulty when there are not great ranges (dogs have a wide range which would make a dog dose at 13.63mg to 54.52mg). The tablet is 22mg so 11mg would be just under the 5mg/kg/day mark. 22mg is 61% higher than 13.63mg.

at 5lbs of weight, the dose of Baytril at 5mg/kg/day is 11mg which would be half of a tablet.

Has repeat blood and urine tests been run? If so, how do they compare to the previous tests? PM me if you need. :pawprint:

Dr Lee
May 21st, 2008, 02:31 PM
On a general note with medications and the cautions of renal insufficiency.

Please remember that before we see azotemia (the elevation of BUN and creatinine) on the blood work, we need approximately 65% loss of kidney function (sources and data slightly differ on exact percentage. This is a mid range value). If we have renal insufficiency, often there is little to no azotemia but lack of concentration ability with regard to urine.

So lets hypothesize for a second. Cat X had 32% kidney tubular function loss. Cat X gets sick. We add a medication that is contraindicated in kidney insufficiency. The medication further degrades the kidneys but the patient clinically does well because now the kidney function is only down to 38%. Then the kidney disease progresses on its own and we are at 40% a few months later. Then we get sick again. So lets do another course. Pet improves. Function is now at 46% kidney function loss. We are still at a threshold that we may not be seeing any clinical signs nor blood changes. Problem here is that cat X feels better but the kidneys are being degraded by the existing disease and now additional stresses are making it worse. The quantity of life is being needlessly spent and cat X is prematurely being moved to a status where quality of life will gone down. (Again, this is all theoretical but I thought it may help make the point).

Just because a geriatric cat does well on baytril before (and note, without any laboratory statistics to help evaluate) is not a reason to give it in light of potential alternatives. Also just because a client of mine says her last poodle ate Alpo and spam and lived 19 years means that she should continue on this diet with her new poodle. Right?

I was going to let the matter drop but since some other members have also had this experience, I thought I should add a few more thoughts. :pawprint:

chico2
May 21st, 2008, 04:24 PM
CPietra,so sorry to read about Winnie and Crunchie,they both look wonderful in the pic,old and dignified:lovestruck:
I always worry about giving meds to my cats,but with the Internet and members here,like Dr Lee,Sugarcatmom,Growler and many more,we can keep ourselves informed.
I hope Winnie will feel better,I know all about when things start breaking down,especially from arthritis,hopefully they'll both have a lot of time with you yet:cat::dog:

spazsmom
May 22nd, 2008, 09:52 AM
thanks to all for your thoughts on baytril. i stopped giving it to spaz, and he is doing better already; not 100% yet, but better. since the dose he was on was too high (twice what he should have been on according to Dr. Lee and other articles i found on Baytril), i'm thinking of talking to my vet about reimbursing me for all of the costs for the tests i had to put him through on monday, as it appears the baytril was the cause of all of his problems. she put him on steroids now to get his weight back up, and thinks cancer is a high probability because they can't find anything else wrong w/ him. the only symptom he has right now is weight loss, down from 9 pounds a year ago to 5pounds now. he was 6 pounds before being put on baytril. he's almost 15 years old.