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A few questions.

JulesMichy
March 24th, 2008, 04:12 PM
Okay, so after months of effort, I've finally managed to get my mom's dog, Baxter, on something resembling a healthy, raw diet. Here's what we've got on the menu so far:

- chicken necks and wings
- lamb neck bones and riblets
- goat ribs
- pork neck bones
- canned tuna (I'm trying to get her to work in raw fish)
- eggs
- chicken livers and hearts

She's getting 10 lbs of turkey neck next week as well.

Question 1: How does that look as far as variety, meat:bone ratio, etc.?

Question 2: When I was visiting home a week ago, I noticed that Baxter will flip over onto his back to chew on bones. I know he does this to get them onto his back molars so he can crush them. But my mom and I are both concerned that he could choke if a piece breaks off and goes down his throat. She's been taking bones away from him once he gets them worn down small enough that they're a choking hazard. I was worried about this effecting his calcium intake, so I bought her several raw lamb and beef shanks to use as recreational bones. Could he choke? Will the shanks make up for the calcium lost in taking away small pieces of rib bones?

Question 3: I made offal patties of canned green tripe, chicken hearts and livers. Baxter has stopped eating them. He hates mushy food, and won't touch anything that doesn't have substance to it. Any way I can get more offal into his diet?

luckypenny
March 24th, 2008, 04:24 PM
Is he getting any muscle meat at all? Remember bones should only be made up of 25% of the total diet. Offal, only 10% of the total diet. How much does Baxter weigh?

Bones are no more a choking hazard than kibble. He just has to be supervised while eating. If he tends to scoff his food without much chewing, you can take a mallet to help crush it a bit.

You can try mixing in some of the offal and tripe into cubed meat. You may also want to add a bit more variety such as chicken giblets, beef heart, kidney, and brain.

As for fish, have you tried feeding frozen whole sardines and mackerel?

And careful with the turkey, some dogs have problems digesting turkey neck as the bones are larger and harder.

TeriM
March 24th, 2008, 04:37 PM
I agree with LP's advice and would probably incorporate some more meat into his diet. How are his poops? If they are quite chalky that is a sign that there is to much bone in the diet.

For turkey necks you can take a meat mallet and smash them a bit before feeding if your dog is a gulper like mine is.

JulesMichy
March 24th, 2008, 04:37 PM
Is he getting any muscle meat at all? Remember bones should only be made up of 10% of the total diet. The same goes for offal, only 10% of the total diet. How much does Baxter weigh?

Sorry, I gotta disagree with your percentage of bone. Everything I've read has said that raw, meaty bones such as ribs, neck and back should make up 75-80% of the diet. RMB's such as these contain a good 2:1 Ca:P ratio.

Baxter weighs 13 lbs. His poos are off-whitish tan, but firm and not chalky or crumbly.

~Lin
March 24th, 2008, 04:44 PM
The calcium to phosphorus ratio can be anywhere from 1:1 to 2:1 to be safe, and the higher end of the spectrum is preferable. RMBs should be 80% of the diet in a prey model diet. Only 10% bone would be severely lacking in calcium. If the dog is not getting enough calcium from their diet, they will pull calcium out of their own bones to meet that need and become osteoporotic. In addition, bones contain phosphorus as well even though the majority of the phosphorus is coming from the muscle meat.

luckypenny
March 24th, 2008, 04:48 PM
Are you following the RMB model of raw feeding? If so, the suggestions are that rmb's make up 50% of the whole diet and the other 50% is made up of veggies/fruit, organs, and muscle meat. Thus, bones would only make up at most 25% of the total diet.

luckypenny
March 24th, 2008, 04:50 PM
Lin, if so, and if following a prey model diet, I don't see a whole chicken or rabbit for example, being made up of 50% bone :shrug: .

TeriM
March 24th, 2008, 04:51 PM
I think that LP's point was that many of the bones your are feeding are not actually raw "meaty" bones, they actually have minimal to no meat on them.

luckypenny
March 24th, 2008, 05:06 PM
Thanks Teri :) . I just realized I also made an error when I wrote 10% bone; it should have been 25%. I'll correct it.

~Lin
March 24th, 2008, 05:18 PM
I feed a prey model diet. I do not feed fruits/veggies as dogs are carnivores and have no need for them, they receive everything they need from raw meat/bone/organs.

luckypenny
March 24th, 2008, 05:28 PM
I feed prey model as well but choose to add minute amounts of veggies. I'm hoping the OP realizes that RMBs along with a little offal is not balanced enough. Whole prey includes much more than just necks, wings, and ribs :shrug: . I still think 50% bone is too much, regardless of the model one chooses to follow.

JulesMichy
March 24th, 2008, 05:37 PM
I think that LP's point was that many of the bones your are feeding are not actually raw "meaty" bones, they actually have minimal to no meat on them.

If spare ribs with a good inch of meat in diameter on both sides of the bone aren't "meaty" bones, I don't know what would be.

I'm hoping the OP realizes that RMBs along with a little offal is not balanced enough. Whole prey includes much more than just necks, wings, and ribs

Which is why I asked if it was balanced. If more muscle meat needs to be added in, fine. But the lamb and goat ribs, in particular, have a good amount of meat on them.

I'll tell my mom that she needs to add in some thighs and legs, as well as more varieties of offal. I can get beef heart, liver and tongue through a butcher here in town. I've been searching for sweetbreads, but so far can't find them.

luckypenny
March 24th, 2008, 05:44 PM
Here's what we've got on the menu so far:

- chicken necks and wings
- lamb neck bones and riblets
- goat ribs
- pork neck bones
- canned tuna (I'm trying to get her to work in raw fish)
- eggs
- chicken livers and hearts

She's getting 10 lbs of turkey neck next week as well.

If spare ribs with a good inch of meat in diameter on both sides of the bone aren't "meaty" bones, I don't know what would be.



Sorry JulesMichy, you're original post didn't make this clear. Other than the last three items on the list, all I saw were bones :shrug: .

A little more variety is ideal although it would seem you're on the right track.

JulesMichy
March 24th, 2008, 05:52 PM
Sorry JulesMichy, you're original post didn't make this clear. Other than the last three items on the list, all I saw were bones :shrug: .

A little more variety is ideal although it would seem you're on the right track.

Yeah, sorry. I should have been more clear, actually. And when I say "neck bones" I mean vertebrae with a good amount of meat still on it. It isn't clean bone by any means.

Perhaps we can add in a little stew meat to his diet a few times a week. But honestly, this dog has the weirdest quirks. He refuses to eat anything squishy (wet dog food, ground meat, etc.) and he won't touch a chicken drumstick unless you cut away some of the meat first. He just loves to gnaw.

pitgrrl
March 24th, 2008, 08:15 PM
The calcium to phosphorus ratio can be anywhere from 1:1 to 2:1 to be safe, and the higher end of the spectrum is preferable. RMBs should be 80% of the diet in a prey model diet. Only 10% bone would be severely lacking in calcium. If the dog is not getting enough calcium from their diet, they will pull calcium out of their own bones to meet that need and become osteoporotic. In addition, bones contain phosphorus as well even though the majority of the phosphorus is coming from the muscle meat.

Isn't the often quoted prey model break down, or guidelines, or whatever one would call it, 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% organ?

ETA: This is the type of break down I've read over and over again:

All of these prey animals are made up of bones, organs, muscle meat, skin, hide/hair/feathers, fat and other connective tissue. In the average prey animal, the ratio of these parts is approximately:

5-10% organs (1/2 of this amount is liver)

10-15% edible bones

80-85% muscle meat (and the rest of the critter)
from: http://rawfed.com/myths/preymodel.html

want4rain
March 24th, 2008, 08:59 PM
that actualyl looks pretty good to me. if you feed fairly evenly of each of the meaty bones the ones he doesnt eat the bones of should make up the extra meat for the things like chicken wings (of which have little meat and more bone) but i would feel better if you could squeeze more 'whole' bodies in there. say an entire rabbit fed over a few days or a whole chicken split up into meal sized portions??? im also not craxy about the tuna. any chance she will go for canned salmon instead? also add some egg?? i find hiding the stuff they dont like in things that are really smelly like fish helps. :)

-ashley

JulesMichy
March 24th, 2008, 10:44 PM
that actualyl looks pretty good to me. if you feed fairly evenly of each of the meaty bones the ones he doesnt eat the bones of should make up the extra meat for the things like chicken wings (of which have little meat and more bone) but i would feel better if you could squeeze more 'whole' bodies in there. say an entire rabbit fed over a few days or a whole chicken split up into meal sized portions??? im also not craxy about the tuna. any chance she will go for canned salmon instead? also add some egg?? i find hiding the stuff they dont like in things that are really smelly like fish helps. :)


I can get a hold of rabbit locally, which I've considered adding into his diet. Problem is it's expensive, and he's not my dog. I've already invested quite a bit of money in this, and I'm a poor college student as it is. I could ask my mom to pay me back, but she'd balk at the cost.

We tried canned mackerel, he wouldn't touch it. I'll tell her to try salmon instead.

He gets fed raw eggs. I put that in the original post, you must have missed it.