Pets.ca - Pet forum for dogs cats and humans 

-->

I am slowly going crazy.......

pitgrrl
March 14th, 2008, 05:58 PM
...1,2,3,4,5,6, switch. I hope someone else know this song, otherwise I really will look nuts :laughing:

Streets is having his bi-annual bout of sever colitis. Last year was so bad I swear the BF wanted to kill me for being such a basket case and no one wanted to talk to me because I was such a total ball of anxiety.

We seemed to resolve the problem with changes in diet and homeopathic treatment, but it's back and I don't know what to do. My regular vet has no answers, she basically thinks I know more about it than her at this point.

The homeopath I was using retired, the homeopathic vet in the city I tried in oct. and it was all a bit of a disaster. So I'm stuck with a dog who is passing a good 1/2 cup or more mucous a day, is clearly loosing energy and miserable, but all tests say he's perfectly healthy.

I just have absolutely no idea what to do. I don't really expect anyone here will either, I've tried all the typical suggestions, both allopathic and holistic, with little results. I guess I just need to :yell:

badger
March 14th, 2008, 06:25 PM
So you've tried slippery elm already?

pitgrrl
March 14th, 2008, 06:53 PM
Oh yeah, we go through pounds of the stuff :laughing:

We've tried slippery elm, marshmallow, digestive enzymes, various homeopathic stuff, probiotics, antibiotics, homemade cooked food, prescription kibble, regular kibbles, raw food (which is the only thing that actually makes a difference of any kind really), traditional tibetan medicine, the list goes on and on....:wall:

Tommysmom
March 14th, 2008, 07:01 PM
No advice here, but big :grouphug:.

Tommy's doing the same thing - not the mucous, but his vomiting. We thought we'd resolved it too, mostly, and then BOOM. Pukies and pukies and pukies. There HAS to be some kind of connection with the time of year, but I can't figure out how! Everything we thought was working probably wasn't, it was just the time of year to be healthy and now it's the time of year to vomit all over my carpets:frustrated: (I love you, Bissell quick steamer!).

And yeah, I DO know that song and now I'm going to be singing it all night too:laughing:.

I don't know if it helps you any, but please know YOU have been helping me... nobody can explain it, but the fact that you're having issues seasonally at least proves to the voices in my head that I'm not totally crazy for thinking there HAS to be something else to it that the vets don't see. So, thank you. And big hugs to the furry boys:grouphug:.

pitgrrl
March 14th, 2008, 07:06 PM
There really is a connection to the time of the year, I have a friend who's dog seems to be on exactly the same schedule as Streets in terms of the gulping bile and mucous poops. The only system of medicine I've ever found that acknowledges this is traditional chinese medicine, but good luck finding a TCM vet outside of california :laughing:

I keep reading and reading and reading trying to figure something out, but I think it's only adding to my insanity.

Dorothea
March 14th, 2008, 08:23 PM
Oh it's so good to know that I am not alone! Lisa has been throwing up with more runs than I care to even count. The vet saye she has gastro interictis(SP) so she's on meds for the third day now. She started to eat yesterday and seemed like she had recovered. Today she refused to eat until this pm. If she is still unwell tomorrow, I will insist on having blood work done to see if something else is going on. I am so tired but mainly worried.

Frenchy
March 14th, 2008, 08:38 PM
(I love you, Bissell quick steamer!).



Same here !!! I was just telling LuckyPenny today that Bailey was ok (no accident in the house) for the past week. Then I got back home ..... :yuck: mucous poop you say ? omg !

pitgrrl , someone from our rescue had a dog with colitis not long ago. I will ask what she did to resolve the problem. It probably won't help you if you have tried everything , but it doesn't hurt to ask.

pitgrrl
March 14th, 2008, 09:51 PM
I'm happy to get any advice anyone wants to give. I feel like I've become some sort of colon expert, and it's not what I wanted to be when I grew up :laughing:

My vet keeps telling me to become a homeopath, which is funny, because my mother's been saying that for years now.

badger
March 14th, 2008, 10:11 PM
Check out charcoal, I used to take it in Europe for a bad stomach and it never failed. I'm interested in how they diagnose colitis. Do they culture the mucous or what? In Quebec it's gastro this and gastro that but it's never very clear.

http://aspenbloompetcare.com/2006/05/activated-charcoal.htm

pbpatti
March 15th, 2008, 12:15 AM
Just a wild guess here, do you think it might have something to do with the yucky spring water? Maybe try giving your pets bottle water??:sick: pbp

rainbow
March 15th, 2008, 12:31 AM
That is a good suggestion, Patti. You don't even have to use bottled water.....just boil and refrigerate your tap water. It's worth a try. :o

pitgrrl
March 15th, 2008, 08:54 AM
The water thing is worth a try, and I did last year :laughing:
The dogs actually got so used to bottled water, now the refuse to drink tap water at all.

Do they culture the mucous or what? In Quebec it's gastro this and gastro that but it's never very clear.


Colitis is usually diagnosed by the typical symptoms being present, mucous, blood, soft stool, usually no weight loss and sometimes vomiting. In Streets' case, because we're going on year 6 of dealing with this, we've had plenty of time to do numerous fecals, bloodtests, etc. all of which show nothing of interest, so the diagnoses of colitis remains.

want4rain
March 15th, 2008, 09:21 AM
:o *raises hand* have you tried allergy meds?? if its seasonal.....

personally, my poo always gets a little loose around the tree pollinating times. my car turns green 2 days after i get loose poops. too bad its not the other way around *sigh*

-ashley

pitgrrl
March 15th, 2008, 11:14 AM
I've very seriously considered the allergy option, but we're still frozen and covered in snow here at the time that this happens. If it was something that happened in April, then it would makes sense, but it's always over by the time things start to thaw :shrug:

I found a classical homeopath/vet willing to work over the phone, so I have some hope. I might need to start selling off my.....um, I don't have anything to sell off, a bake sale perhaps? :laughing:

rainbow
March 15th, 2008, 12:42 PM
Does Streets eat any snow?

pitgrrl
March 15th, 2008, 01:28 PM
Nope. Basil eats a ton of snow, but Streets is the good dog who doesn't eat anything he's not supposed to.

I pretty much think it's immune related and has something to do with all the vaccines and medications he was given in the first couple of years of life. This is the dog after all who's had vaccine reactions, focal seizures from HW preventatives, etc. I think he suffers from sensitive dog-itis :laughing:

pitgrrl
March 15th, 2008, 08:32 PM
Okay, I'm officially taking bets, if any of you are the gambling type.

Here's the thing, Streets does have a fairly well documented March bout of colitis, but now I'm thinking that there's a chance I just so expecting that to happen that perhaps I've missed a thing or two.

Anyone remember this thread?
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=50051

Well today Basil started with the full on mucous poop. He'd been having less than perfect stools lately, but this was rivaling Streets. So the BF and I start tracing back when this all started looking for anything we might have missed.

Turns out this all started a day after I started feeding the new batch of food. :eek:

It totally could be a coincidence, after all Streets really does have a long history of these types of problems, especially this time of year. He and Basil are littermates, so it's not entirely impossible that Basil might have developed the same problems with age, his stomach has gotten more sensitive in the past year generally.

All that said though, wouldn't it be horrible (and sort of wonderful) if it was the food? I didn't feed it this evening and won't for a least a few days to see if that makes a difference, so come on folks, place your bets!

Frenchy
March 15th, 2008, 10:51 PM
so come on folks, place your bets!

OK , I say it's the food , if I win , you owe me $10.00 , is this the way it works ? :D

rainbow
March 16th, 2008, 01:01 AM
Okay...we need more info. :D What are you feeding them and how long have you been feeding it and what were you feeding before? :o

pitgrrl
March 16th, 2008, 09:05 AM
50% of what they eat is pre-made raw, the other 50% is meat/organs etc. that is regular stuff from the grocery store or butcher.

It's the pre-made stuff I'm wondering about because although I've been feeding the same stuff for months, this all started right after I started in on the latest batch I bought (if I'm getting the dates of everything right, which I may not be. I should have learned by now to write things down).

And yes Frenchy, I'll owe you $10.00 if it's the food...I swear I'm good for it:D

Love4himies
March 18th, 2008, 02:33 PM
Poor doggies.

It is a genetic defect (or so says my GI), so yes there is a possibility that both can get it, that allows your immune system to attack the colon without there actually being any pathogen to attack (I personally believe there is something there, but scientists haven't found it yet :rolleyes:), in other words your immune system is working overtime when it doesn't need to.

Many humans with colitis do get flares at the same time every year and it is not understood why. Spring/fall seem to be the most frequent occurances.

Hope Streets gets over his bout (known as flare in the colitis world) quickly:fingerscr. and that Basil doesn't follow Street's and gets this horrible disease.

pitgrrl
March 18th, 2008, 02:49 PM
Things just get weirder and weirder I tell ya.

I stopped giving them the food I suspected of causing a problem. Streets had totally normal stool for a couple of days, then this morning totally runny and yucky.

Basil, on the other hand, had one normal poop and then went back to mucousy disaster, so I just have no idea anymore. :yell:

I've spent more on vets in the past week than I really have only to be more confused than I was before, it's really just insane.

pitgrrl
March 21st, 2008, 10:12 AM
I don't understand anything anymore!

Fasted the dogs for 24 hours, now I'm feeding an extremely simple, bland diet and still we've got yuck poop :yell:

What is dog's name could be the issue?

Could it be that there was something weird about the food (waaaaay more bone than usual, weird bacteria, some other nasty) that they're just taking time to get over?

Seasonal weirdness that's just now starting to effect Basil as well as Streets?

Something else that I'm just not picking up on?

I really, really don't understand. My vet keeps just saying "well, it's just diarrhea", which doesn't seem like a reasonable answer to me. The vet tech keeps yelling at me about antibiotics and gastro food, and I just want to hurl myself out the window, but I'm only one floor up, so I'd probably just end up with a broken arm or something which wouldn't help anything.

Okay, just venting, now the vent's over, thank you. :o

Love4himies
March 21st, 2008, 10:26 AM
If it is true, chronic colitis, their food does not cause their colons to be inflammed, it is their immune systems. Have they even been on prednisone? If so, has it helped? However, some foods will irriitate the colon more so than other food when there is a flare going on. I am thinking the bones may be the culprit. Many humans with colitis avoid berries with seeds because they irritate their colons.

I don't think I like what your vet said about it being just diarrhea. I think you have reason to be concerned and your vet should be too.

Sending you a :grouphug:.

pitgrrl
March 21st, 2008, 10:49 AM
If it is true, chronic colitis, their food does not cause their colons to be inflammed, it is their immune systems. Have they even been on prednisone? If so, has it helped? However, some foods will irriitate the colon more so than other food when there is a flare going on. I am thinking the bones may be the culprit. Many humans with colitis avoid berries with seeds because they irritate their colons.

I don't think I like what your vet said about it being just diarrhea. I think you have reason to be concerned and your vet should be too.

Sending you a :grouphug:.

I think my vet is basically saying 'you have a dog with colitis, stop trying to find a reason everytime it flares up', which I get, but it just seems bizarre that both dogs would have this going on at exactly the same time. If it were just Streets I wouldn't be looking for a reason per se, but both of them is weird.

They've also both been eating bones for over a year and rather than causing issues, the raw food has actually helped more than anything else, so unless the pre-made stuff had a million times more bone than normal (which is possible I suppose) I don't get it.

I've never put him on steroids because a) I just really, really want to avoid doing that until absolutely necessary and b) we've managed it fairly well through diet over all.

I dunno, I keep seeing yucky dog poop all over the place, maybe it's just the season or maybe there's something funny going around :shrug:

Jim Hall
March 21st, 2008, 10:54 AM
well keep in mind any remedy you may try takes a while to affect the colon

Love4himies
March 21st, 2008, 10:56 AM
Don't blame you for avoiding the steroids. It is not good for anybody. I know somebody who has colitis and was on pred for much too long. He is getting his feet amputated due to the side effects of it.

It is very possible that both your dogs will get it, it is suppose to be genetic. Many humans get flares at the same time of year each year too. That makes a lot of us with colitis wonder if it is allergy related that causes our immune systems to go biserk and start the flares.

pitgrrl
March 21st, 2008, 11:34 AM
Don't blame you for avoiding the steroids. It is not good for anybody. I know somebody who has colitis and was on pred for much too long. He is getting his feet amputated due to the side effects of it.

It is very possible that both your dogs will get it, it is suppose to be genetic. Many humans get flares at the same time of year each year too. That makes a lot of us with colitis wonder if it is allergy related that causes our immune systems to go biserk and start the flares.

Now that's scary!

I've spoken with a couple of people who have chronic colitis and they totally see a seasonal connection, like you're saying. I just wonder what, with all the ice and snow right now, could be the trigger. I almost want to move somewhere with a wildly different climate to see if it would make a difference. :laughing:

I'm probably just stressed out and therefore being paranoid, but I swear lately every dog forum I look at has more and more posts about dogs having GI problems. Perhaps it's seasonal or something very weird is going on with meat these days :shrug: Again though, could be I'm just being paranoid.

Love4himies
March 21st, 2008, 12:08 PM
Now that's scary!

I've spoken with a couple of people who have chronic colitis and they totally see a seasonal connection, like you're saying. I just wonder what, with all the ice and snow right now, could be the trigger. I almost want to move somewhere with a wildly different climate to see if it would make a difference. :laughing:

I'm probably just stressed out and therefore being paranoid, but I swear lately every dog forum I look at has more and more posts about dogs having GI problems. Perhaps it's seasonal or something very weird is going on with meat these days :shrug: Again though, could be I'm just being paranoid.


I don't think you are paranoid at all, I think the same as you. Spring is a huge flare time for humans with colitis.

The doctors say it is the immune system that goes biserk fighting a pathogen that isn't there, but I, and alot of others, say the pathogen is there, the scientists haven't found it yet (perhaps an allergin??).

I wasn't that long ago that it was discovered stomach ulcers are caused from a bacteria, not stress, doctors didn't believe the scientist that discovered it until he proved it.

luckypenny
March 21st, 2008, 01:23 PM
Just a longshot here, but since this last bout of mucousy poop and diarhea, have you had stool samples evaluated for parasites? Perhaps this has nothing to do with colitis or food at all :shrug:.

Frenchy
March 21st, 2008, 01:30 PM
You could maybe try Vanectyl for a while too ? (but you would have to ask your vet for a prescription) it's a med against allergies. If this works , then you'll know they do have some kind of allergies ?

pitgrrl
March 21st, 2008, 01:31 PM
Just a longshot here, but since this last bout of mucousy poop and diarhea, have you had stool samples evaluated for parasites? Perhaps this has nothing to do with colitis or food at all :shrug:.

That's the next thing to do, I think I'm going to bring in a sample after the long weekend. Wouldn't that just be peachy? :laughing:

Frenchy
March 21st, 2008, 08:10 PM
That's the next thing to do, I think I'm going to bring in a sample after the long weekend. Wouldn't that just be peachy? :laughing:

I thought you already had it done so forget about my post about the Vanectyl :o

Oh and about the poo sample , if you use a ziplock bag , make sure it's zip tight before putting it into your purse :laughing:

rainbow
March 21st, 2008, 08:21 PM
Just a longshot here, but since this last bout of mucousy poop and diarhea, have you had stool samples evaluated for parasites? Perhaps this has nothing to do with colitis or food at all .

That's the next thing to do, I think I'm going to bring in a sample after the long weekend. Wouldn't that just be peachy? :laughing:

It would be sooo nice if that was the problem. :fingerscr :fingerscr :goodvibes: :goodvibes:

rainbow
March 21st, 2008, 08:23 PM
Btw...have they been losing any weight with all of this?

pitgrrl
March 21st, 2008, 08:55 PM
Oh and about the poo sample , if you use a ziplock bag , make sure it's zip tight before putting it into your purse :laughing:

I take it you've made this mistake? :D

Actually, the reason I haven't done it yet is because every time I've dealt with things like this in Streets I get fecal after fecal done and they never show anything, so I thought this time I wouldn't jump to that conclusion.

Btw...have they been losing any weight with all of this?

Not really. They're both pretty slim usually, and after a fast and a couple of days of lower fat than normal food they both look a little skinnier, but nothing substantial. Last March Streets lost 10 lbs over the course of 3 weeks, so in that respect they're doing well.

Frenchy
March 21st, 2008, 08:56 PM
I take it you've made this mistake? :D



Nope but I've always been paranoid about it :yuck:

want4rain
March 21st, 2008, 09:42 PM
I take it you've made this mistake? :D

Nope but I've always been paranoid about it :yuck:

:o:o:o

oh my gosh guys.... some things are better left in the fog of my past....

oh man....


:o:o:o

i took a baggy to school in the 3rd grade. :o it was my day to pick it up... i remember i had on my BIG coat cause of how cold it was. oh! but it wasnt a zip lock bag!! it was just one of those fold over sandwich bags!!! i carried it *all* day long.

im horrified all over again just thinking of it!!! :o

horrible... :yuck:

-ash

rainbow
March 22nd, 2008, 12:53 AM
Not really. They're both pretty slim usually, and after a fast and a couple of days of lower fat than normal food they both look a little skinnier, but nothing substantial. Last March Streets lost 10 lbs over the course of 3 weeks, so in that respect they're doing well.


Too much fat in the diet will cause diarrrhea. I think a 10 lb. weight loss over 3 weeks is a lot. :o

catsnatcher-CDN
March 22nd, 2008, 08:24 AM
I wouldn't rule out seasonal allergies despite the snow.

I know this sounds SUPER stupid but I am one of 4 people I know who has started reacting to ...something in the air... over the last week. All this snow and we're having hourly bouts of sneazing, runny eyes and stuffed up noses that come and go every other day.

pitgrrl
March 22nd, 2008, 08:50 AM
Too much fat in the diet will cause diarrrhea. I think a 10 lb. weight loss over 3 weeks is a lot. :o

Sorry, I don't think I was clear. Neither dog seems to have lost any weight. I fasted them and then gave them bland meals for a couple of days, after which they looked the tiniest bit skinnier, but nothing substantial even remotely.

I was simply comparing that to last when Streets had a really rough time with a flare up of colitis, at which time he lost 10 lbs. I was trying to say that compared to that the dogs are doing pretty well.

Their regular meals are no where near high in fat, it was simply that after fasting them I wanted to give the blandest thing possible so I removed the skin etc. from chicken that I would have normally left on.

I wouldn't rule out seasonal allergies despite the snow.

I know this sounds SUPER stupid but I am one of 4 people I know who has started reacting to ...something in the air... over the last week. All this snow and we're having hourly bouts of sneazing, runny eyes and stuffed up noses that come and go every other day.

It doesn't sound stupid at all, and really, it's one of the few explanations that makes any kind of sense, I'm just frustrated and want to find some cause I can pin down and fix. Maybe that's not going to happen though and I need to practice a more patient way of thinking.

rainbow
March 22nd, 2008, 02:08 PM
Bumping this post up for Dr. Lee to see since he's back again. :thumbs up :D

Dr Lee
March 22nd, 2008, 02:28 PM
Thanks Rainbow for the vote of confidence!

As far as the holistic options, I will leave that to more knowledgeable people than myself. However, hopefully I can help.

pitgrrl,

What diagnostics have been done? Would you like me to review them? Chronic colitis can have many causes and while holistic measures may be the key to solving them, obtaining the most amount of medical information may also help with the management both medical and holistic.

Can you get the reports of recent blood, urine and fecal tests? Copies of the ultrasound and radiographs? Any biopsies?

I hope I can help out! :pawprint:

pitgrrl
March 22nd, 2008, 02:44 PM
I don't have them on hand, and it's a long weekend so I won't be able to get them anytime soon, but in the past month both dog's have had urine analysis done (came back normal on all counts), Streets had a annual blood test done, which also came back normal, and I'm doing fecals after the long weekend.

The thing is, this has been going on in one form or another since I found these two 5 years ago. I've brought them to 6 different vets, had blood drawn, urine tested, fecals done, wormers given, more rounds of antibiotics than I care to think about and no one has ever found anything that indicates anything besides a perfectly healthy dog :shrug:

My reason for straying towards more holistic practices is because they're the only thing that has made any positive difference.

I would love to hear any theories you might have though, I'm totally open to any and all suggestions or explanations. I wish I had more precise info to offer, but nothing about this seems to ever be all that precise.

Dr Lee
March 23rd, 2008, 06:34 PM
I've brought them to 6 different vets, had blood drawn, urine tested, fecals done, wormers given, more rounds of antibiotics than I care to think about and no one has ever found anything that indicates anything besides a perfectly healthy dog

I do a fair amount of second opinion work (although in this case it is seventh opinion?:rolleyes:). Commonly I see that the middle vets (those between the first one and myself) often spend a fair amount of time repeating the basics - as if they are likely to change. Sometimes they do but after rechecking once - why recheck 3,4,5,6 times? In these situations, I usually am in contact with an internal medicine specialist. If there isn't any tests that really do need repeating or simple ones that should be done before referral, then I usually refer them out directly. This is the job of the internal medicine specialist - to figure those difficult ones out! Sometimes there still isn't an answer, but usually there is and when on rare occasion, there is not an answer; there is the feel of the owner that they have 'truly left no stone unturned'. The specialists also have the advances tools such as endoscopic biopsy which can give information that nothing else can.

I hope this helps. I do not want to imply that any vet may not have been helpful but it is important that once the basic blood/urine/fecal test have been done and the trials of antibiotics and dewormers and foods have been done - that referral is the next step.:pawprint:

pitgrrl
March 23rd, 2008, 06:49 PM
The question of doing an endoscopy has come up with my current vet, but here's the thing stopping me, is there a point in doing it if I'm going to end up doing the same things in terms of management regardless of it being diagnosed as IBD or what have you?

breeze
March 26th, 2008, 07:14 PM
pitgirl How is Streets and Basil doing??? are they any better, Have you found the cause??

Love4himies
March 27th, 2008, 07:39 AM
The question of doing an endoscopy has come up with my current vet, but here's the thing stopping me, is there a point in doing it if I'm going to end up doing the same things in terms of management regardless of it being diagnosed as IBD or what have you?

I think the point of doing the biopsy is to confirm whether she truly has chronic (or ulcerative) colitis. The lab can tell by examining the cells from the walls of the colon. If it is, then it may be autoimmune which means that diet will have no effect on whether she flares and needs to be on a steriod to get it under control.

Humans can go from being extremely healthy (as I feel I am) to the next day having colitis, in fact there are many people who are health freaks who get it. Nothing showed up in my blood work when I was diagnosed.

pitgrrl
March 27th, 2008, 09:04 AM
Since I fasted them last week they're doing pretty well actually. They're back on their regular food, minus the pre-made stuff that I suspected of causing a problem and so far no issues. Hopefully that continues.

I still don't know if the food was the issue or not for sure, the company hasn't heard of any other problems, but regardless I'm keeping them off it for now at least. If it was just Streets having problems I wouldn't at all think it had anything to do with the food, but both dogs, at exactly the same time, seems bizarre. They are littermates though, so I guess it's possible that Basil would develop the same problems as Streets, just later in life.

I think the point of doing the biopsy is to confirm whether she truly has chronic (or ulcerative) colitis. The lab can tell by examining the cells from the walls of the colon. If it is, then it may be autoimmune which means that diet will have no effect on whether she flares and needs to be on a steriod to get it under control.

Humans can go from being extremely healthy (as I feel I am) to the next day having colitis, in fact there are many people who are health freaks who get it. Nothing showed up in my blood work when I was diagnosed.

That makes sense. I guess in Streets' case I know that diet has some effect and he's fine so much of the time that putting him under anesthesia doesn't seem worth it really. :shrug:

Love4himies
March 27th, 2008, 09:20 AM
but both dogs, at exactly the same time, seems bizarre. They are littermates though, so I guess it's possible that Basil would develop the same problems as Streets, just later in life.



Something that has my specialist perplexed (yes those were his words) is the fact that my daughter (who doesn't live with me) and I flare at the same time every year, within a week of each other (spring time).

pitgrrl
March 27th, 2008, 10:33 AM
Something that has my specialist perplexed (yes those were his words) is the fact that my daughter (who doesn't live with me) and I flare at the same time every year, within a week of each other (spring time).

See, it's things like that that make me think there's a whole level of things going on that we just don't even know a thing about.