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Laser de-barking

t.pettet
March 7th, 2008, 10:27 PM
Now I've seen and heard every conceivable, stupid act of mutilation and cruelty stupid humans do to animals. My latest foster is a 1 yr. old small mini poodle who was dumped because she never went into heat! and therefore was not paying her way by reproducing. The f---ing vet that did this surgery should have the same done to him. I am so pissed off at what this dog has gone through.

Frenchy
March 7th, 2008, 10:29 PM
WHAT ? what de barking her had anything to do with her not having her heat ? :confused:

hazelrunpack
March 7th, 2008, 10:36 PM
Are you saying that a vet burned out her larynx with a laser?!? :eek: To keep her from barking? :yell:

That poor baby. Was she from a puppy mill? I've got horrible images of a puppy mill full of mute dogs...quiet dogs don't attract attention...and help to hide what's going on... :sad:

:cry:

Frenchy
March 7th, 2008, 10:47 PM
Can you place a complaint with the vet association or something ? Or is this legal and they think it is ok to do this to a dog ? :wall:

t.pettet
March 7th, 2008, 11:05 PM
She is from a byb who gave her away because she never went into heat. She is supposed to be a toy but at 8 lbs. she was too big. The vet Glengarry Animal Hosp. in Alexandria, Ont. did this de-barking. This dog has no idea of house-training, if I look at her she hides behind the toilet or under the couch, won't eat if she is being watched and trembles when spoken to. She is completely un-socialized and its going to be a long, hard road for this girl to gain trust in humans. I will gladly give you the byb's phone # if you pm me.

onster
March 7th, 2008, 11:06 PM
poor doggy :sad:

Frenchy
March 7th, 2008, 11:12 PM
The vet Glengarry Animal Hosp. in Alexandria, Ont. did this de-barking.

So the BYB asked the vet for this ? :frustrated:

Frenchy
March 7th, 2008, 11:15 PM
She is completely un-socialized and its going to be a long, hard road for this girl to gain trust in humans.

:sad: yes it will :sad: I had 2 golden females like this 2 yr ago. One of them spent one whole month in my kitchen , would not come anywhere else in the house until we were all asleep. But today , she is one happy dog with her new family :thumbs up I hope things improves , it's a slow road , baby steps. Good luck and thank YOU so much for taking her in. :angel: she's pretty lucky to have you !

Shaykeija
March 8th, 2008, 12:32 AM
OMG that poor baby. I wish I was closer to you, I could help you with her.
Just give her a lot of time and love..........

NoahGrey
March 8th, 2008, 07:33 AM
You really have to take a look at the vet who did this. I know the ONLY way a vet where I live, that would do that, is if the dog had cancer of the throat and it would save the dogs life.

My question is WHY is the vet supporting this individual by having him a a client. Seems like this vet is ALL about money and not the welfare of animals.

ACO22

chico2
March 8th, 2008, 08:37 AM
T.pettet,OMG!! how horrible,poor little dog,but her luck turned beeing with you..:thumbs up
I am a little confused and maybe naive,but would this not be a case of animal-cruelty??
If the BYB'er had this done to one Poodle,it's probably has been done to more of her dogs.
This vet is clearly not in it for the good of the animals,anything we can do,maybe write??

ancientgirl
March 8th, 2008, 04:10 PM
That's the most horrible thing I've heard of! I've heard everything now. That vet has no conscience. I mean, that poor dog is basically handicap now. She's got no way of letting anyone know she's in trouble or needs help. One of the things I love about my vet is she discourages de-clawing, and when I first took Vlad to her she told me NOT to do that to him, not that I was going to.

That poor little baby.:cry: I'm so glad she's got a loving home now, and a chance to live a normal life.

t.pettet
March 8th, 2008, 07:00 PM
I don't know if this procedure is illegal under the cruelty law but I am going to research that and if it is then plan on nailing the vet and having the byb's premises investigated with the hope her dogs are confisgated. She opens her mouth to bark barks when I let her and the others outside but no noise is heard, not even a low woof. She is so scared when I am standing and glance over at her but not as nervous if I'm sitting. She will imitate my dogs' behaviour but when it comes to getting affection you can see she wants to approach but is really apprehensive. This pup needs 1 on 1 in a quiet home with an experienced rehabilitator, that is my goal for her right now.

susieqt
March 8th, 2008, 07:20 PM
I have had a few of my clients do this to their dogs and I am pretty sure it is not illegal. One client has a poodle that barked alot, so she had it debarked as she goes camping all summer with it. She can make noises when she barks, it sounds terrible; I think it is a horrible, horrible thing to do to a dog.

Frenchy
March 8th, 2008, 11:11 PM
She will imitate my dogs' behaviour but when it comes to getting affection you can see she wants to approach but is really apprehensive. This pup needs 1 on 1 in a quiet home with an experienced rehabilitator, that is my goal for her right now.

1 on 1 I agree. But having other dogs around might help. One of my puppy mill golden fosters , would only approach me to get pet when I was petting my other dogs. At first I mean. She would be more willing outside , I guess because of open space , she had the feeling she could escape if needed too.

And they do imitate the other dogs , Wendy , my first one , didn't need any housebreaking training , she saw the others do it outside , and just did the same !!!!

Frenchy
March 8th, 2008, 11:13 PM
I have had a few of my clients do this to their dogs and I am pretty sure it is not illegal.

Those people should get a fish instead. :frustrated:

krdahmer
March 8th, 2008, 11:20 PM
:cry: That's just aweful... :sad: Well she is in the right hands now... and hopefully you'll be able to find a way to get the others out of the wrong hands too. :pray::grouphug:

CyberKitten
March 8th, 2008, 11:30 PM
I have heard of this from a woman who rescues (usually at actions or in other ways) puppy mill dogs and several have been debarked. It;s horrible. Poor baby!! And yes, it does take time but she will come around with love and care - but these dogs are so sad. They do not know how to play never mind socialization and are scared of any human voice, It is just so sad and angering!!!!!

That vet should be reported! I wonder if it is legal - I cannot imagine a vet doing anything illegal but you never know.

Frenchy
March 8th, 2008, 11:49 PM
t.pettet , if you need me to post this dog in the adoption thread , just send me the infos.

Shaykeija
March 9th, 2008, 12:17 AM
I talked to my husband and we can give this little one a stable home for rehab for as long as it takes. We have 2 small dogs and no kids, grand kids and we may have company 4 time a year. She would be safe and loved here. You can pm if you would like.

Esaunders
March 9th, 2008, 12:29 AM
I am SO going to get flamed, tarred and feathered over this....


De-barking is 100% legal but sometimes contraversial. (ya think?)

Sometimes it isn't an unreasonable choice. I live in a condo with pet friendly rules but excessive barking is one of the few reasons you can be forced to get rid of your dog. If I had to choose between getting rid of my dog or de-barking, I know what I'd choose. Some dogs, especially some herding and small breeds, just love to hear the sound of their own voice.

Before anyone jumps on me, I'm the FIRST one to say train the problem out . But if you get the legal letter from a housing association or condo management ordering the problem solved or the animal gone in 5 days you have some hard choices to make quickly.

It doesn't sound like this was the case in the original post, but I'm just pointing out that this isn't a black & white issue.

BTW de-barking is EXTREMELY common with show poodles. (and shelties I believe) I know a woman with 3 retired show poodles, every single one was de-barked by the previous owner. Happy healthy dogs, every single one.

The topic has come up a few times with my setter email groups. One person there de-barked her Irish setter because the setter's favorite activity is to tear around the yard SCREAMING her head off. Every avenue was exhausted prior. Put an anti-bark collar on her and she'd just lie in the yard and pout. (seriously) Now she tears around the yard whispering her head off, happy as a squirrel chasing irish can be.

Shocking as it may sound, there are GOOD dog people that have chosen this route and it has little to no effect on the dog's socialization, inter-dog communication or personality.

Frenchy
March 9th, 2008, 12:32 AM
I talked to my husband and we can give this little one a stable home for rehab for as long as it takes. We have 2 small dogs and no kids, grand kids and we may have company 4 time a year. She would be safe and loved here. You can pm if you would like.

You would ? :2huggers:

Shaykeija
March 9th, 2008, 12:37 AM
In a heart beat...

Frenchy
March 9th, 2008, 12:41 AM
In a heart beat...

:thankyou: that is so nice !

rainbow
March 9th, 2008, 01:03 AM
:thankyou: that is so nice !

I second that. :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

t.pettet
March 9th, 2008, 10:59 PM
Thank you for your offer Shaykeija. I am thinking of a home without any other dogs as she is too comfortable with other canines and has settled in with mine already but because she is so people scared feel she needs to learn to trust humans to get over her fear. When I made a sudden movement, rushing for the phone, she ran to where my dogs were lounging and stood behind them as if for protection. I put everyone else out in the yard this afternoon, sat on the floor and enticed her with small pieces of treat but she would only take it if I put it on the floor, not look at her, would not take any from my open palm, and shivered and peed. She is constantly staring at me and checking me out which is a positive sign and watching my every move, atleast not hiding behind the toilet or under the couch as much. Whatever interaction she has had with humans has left a negative mark on her but because she's only a year old I feel she'll come around with more interactions of calm, committed people.

t.pettet
March 10th, 2008, 09:56 PM
Spoke to the Cruelty Investigators of SPCA in Newmarket this a.m. and due to our antiquated cruelty laws and the fact that pets are still considered possessions, de-barking with laser or any other 'humane' way isn't grounds for cruelty. Spoke to the vet that did the procedure and they said that they don't do this type of laser surgery but do spays using laser. Vet said that laser surgery has to be repeated after 1 year as the vocal cords heal and dogs get their bark back. So who did this to the pup I don't know, am taking her to my vet Thursday and they have requested her medical chart from Glengarry Vet Hosp. as long as previous byb'er gives them permission, so might find out some truths. Today when shovelling I slipped off the deck and landed lying on the ground in all this snow. Of course the dogs used this as a great advantage for kissing and she joined right in licking my face. I think we've crossed over a milestone as she came and sat within 1 foot of me on the couch and starred, not trying to hide under the couch or behind the toilet. Progress will be slow but she is so worth all my efforts - what a sweet wee dog.

Frenchy
March 10th, 2008, 10:05 PM
she joined right in licking my face. I think we've crossed over a milestone

omg she's making huge progress !!! :crazy:

Shaykeija
March 10th, 2008, 11:09 PM
And so when are we going to see a picture?


http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o286/sandgoddess/cat%20icons/impatient.gif

Bearsmom
March 10th, 2008, 11:23 PM
I am SO going to get flamed, tarred and feathered over this....


De-barking is 100% legal but sometimes contraversial. (ya think?)

Sometimes it isn't an unreasonable choice. I live in a condo with pet friendly rules but excessive barking is one of the few reasons you can be forced to get rid of your dog. If I had to choose between getting rid of my dog or de-barking, I know what I'd choose. Some dogs, especially some herding and small breeds, just love to hear the sound of their own voice.

Before anyone jumps on me, I'm the FIRST one to say train the problem out . But if you get the legal letter from a housing association or condo management ordering the problem solved or the animal gone in 5 days you have some hard choices to make quickly.

It doesn't sound like this was the case in the original post, but I'm just pointing out that this isn't a black & white issue.

BTW de-barking is EXTREMELY common with show poodles. (and shelties I believe) I know a woman with 3 retired show poodles, every single one was de-barked by the previous owner. Happy healthy dogs, every single one.

The topic has come up a few times with my setter email groups. One person there de-barked her Irish setter because the setter's favorite activity is to tear around the yard SCREAMING her head off. Every avenue was exhausted prior. Put an anti-bark collar on her and she'd just lie in the yard and pout. (seriously) Now she tears around the yard whispering her head off, happy as a squirrel chasing irish can be.

Shocking as it may sound, there are GOOD dog people that have chosen this route and it has little to no effect on the dog's socialization, inter-dog communication or personality.


Wow, I wonder what they do when their children are running around SCREAMING their heads off? How come THAT's not an annoyance?

chico2
March 11th, 2008, 08:46 AM
She is making progress:thumbs up,great news:dog:she's one lucky little girl!
So,when her vocal cords grows back,at least she won't be de-barked again,she'll probably bark like crazy when they do..:thumbs up

ancientgirl
March 11th, 2008, 09:07 AM
Vet said that laser surgery has to be repeated after 1 year as the vocal cords heal and dogs get their bark back.

So does that mean there's a chance she'll be able to bark still?

want4rain
March 11th, 2008, 09:36 AM
Wow, I wonder what they do when their children are running around SCREAMING their heads off? How come THAT's not an annoyance?

i dont know how i feel about laser debarking but i have been on the receiving end of an endlessly barking dog. if it tells you anything, we were willing to go (another) 10k in the hole to move away from it. if she hadnt gotten laid off and thus had tons of time to spend at home, we would be in court right now. it was absolutely life wrecking.

we are *still* working through our own ability to use our own property. what finally made us do something about it (call animal control) was when we were talking abotu where we could put a fence in OUR yard and we discussed the unused half, disregarded it because her barking dog. i mean OVER HALF of our property is unused, unwalked on because her dogs bark was louder over there. we went 2 years without using our back porch, nothign she could see from her vantage point. we could sometimes sneak out to the little front walk way where she couldnt see and hang out but other than that and the walk to the cars.... my veggie garden, she couldnt see that and if we were quiet enough, she woudl never know we were there. NOW i look back and think its a little funny that you can look from above our property line and SEE where we had accommodated this crazy barking dog by staying out of her line of sight.

would her owner have ever been able to break her of that?? barking at bugs in someone elses yard? i dont know.

-ashley

Esaunders
March 11th, 2008, 10:13 AM
Wow, I wonder what they do when their children are running around SCREAMING their heads off? How come THAT's not an annoyance?

:D Who said that WASN'T an annoyance????????????????? Its like nails on a chalkboard for me! :wall:

and the children analogy is a bit of a moot point for a number of reasons.
1) You can't be fined or sued (as easily) for children running around & screaming when they play
2) Your children can't be taken away and possibly be killed for running around & screaming when they play
3) You can't be legally forced to give away your children for running around & screaming when they play
3) You can reason with children (eventually)
4) Children grow out of this behaviour within a couple years (hopefully)

In reality and in the eyes of the law, dogs are not equivalent to children, they are property. I don't think this is a bad thing as it protects me from people who would like to control how I care for, train and manage my pets. Our property rights are our pets best protection.

Make no mistake, I feel that the poor little poodle in the OP was badly treated, miserably socialized and is suffering for it. I think the OP is doing a WONDERFUL thing taking her in and I don't blame the OP one bit for being angry with the previous owner. I would LOVE to have an opportunity to say some nasty things to the person who has handled the dog so badly. Jerks like that shouldn't be allowed to own dogs. But the debarking has less to do with the dogs problems than the SOB who treated it so badly.

want4rain
March 11th, 2008, 10:37 AM
i know im really off topic here but-

that was our biggeest fear with our neighbors dogs. we made VERY VERY sure that the AC and the sheriff knew we felt she was a very responsible dog owner. she makes sure they dogs are in for bad weather or really hot days, they have a shelter outside, she feeds them very well, plays with them when she is home... they are her LIFE but when she is gone, they bark like mad.

another side-ish note- i found this and thought it was interesting. i havent been part of this scene long enough to have looked up the definition of all this stuff so bare with me if im a total NOOB at this LOL!!

http://www.animaladvocates.com/dog-breeding/definitions.php

-ashley

Esaunders
March 11th, 2008, 10:54 AM
:offtopic: but important ....

Want4Rain, I'd be REALLY careful of accepting definitions put forth by the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) They are not actually affiliated with the Humane Societies that run shelters but are in fact a political lobbying group with close ties to PETA. I have no faith in an organization with the public mandate "One generation and out" regarding pet ownership

They are also EXTREMELY misleading in their fundraising practises. The most recent example was with Michael Vick. They were fundraising claiming that money was needed to care for the dogs seized & in their care, when in fact they did not have possession or care of the dogs and were actually lobbying to have them destroyed.
http://www.activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm/oid/136

:offtopic:

t.pettet
March 12th, 2008, 12:17 AM
Since there are training methods to control barking as well as spray collars etc. de-barking with laser (minimum 5 day recovery) is painful mutilation, as I feel is ear cropping, tail docking and de-clawing. Why put an animal through this pain? because they are our 'possessions' and we can do as we wish as long as it is done humanely. They are subject to our whims, likes and dislikes. So 'humane' means painless? Yeah right. Hopefully she will regain use of her vocal cords and realize the joy of being able to express herself. She can't whine or yelp to show sadness or pain, bark to express happiness or excitement, ask to go outside, or growl to warn. She has been forced to be mute. This a.m. they all went out to chase 2 squirrels that were in the feeders and she opened her mouth continously but not a sound came out. I am taking her to kingston this weekend to have a meeting with potential adoptees who sound really good.

t.pettet
March 13th, 2008, 11:13 PM
I have decided to keep this little girl with me and let her join the the herd. Just can't see putting her through anymore adjustments with a new home and people. Every day she advances a little further, has completely won me over and I can't wait to hear her bark.

chico2
March 14th, 2008, 07:41 AM
t.pettet,that's the best news of the day:thumbs upwhat a lucky girl,thank you:grouphug:

ancientgirl
March 14th, 2008, 10:38 AM
That's great news. I had a feeling you'd wind up keeping her. I'm looking forward to you posting you heard her first bark.:thumbs up

Love4himies
March 14th, 2008, 01:12 PM
AH HA! Another failed foster mom to add to the ever growing list.:thumbs up

We need pics:yell:.