Pets.ca - Pet forum for dogs cats and humans 

-->

Chicken Soup vs Canidae

aajb29
March 7th, 2008, 10:43 AM
We have a 1 year old male Shih Tzu that we have been feeding Iams dry dog food. We would like to switch to a better dry dog food and after research, we have narrowed it down to Chicken Soup and Canidae based on their reasonable prices. With that said, any feedback as to which is better, personal experiences etc would be appreciated. Thanks.

luckypenny
March 7th, 2008, 10:51 AM
Welcome to pets.ca aajb29 :) . Which formulas in particular are you considering feeding?

aajb29
March 7th, 2008, 11:21 AM
Since he is 13 months old now, we are looking at either Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover's Soul Adult Dog Formula or Canidae Chicken Meal & Rice Dry Dog Food (or Canidae All Life Stages).

I have read both positive and negative reviews on both brands.

MerlinsHope
March 7th, 2008, 11:28 AM
Like all dog foods that are commercially prepared, you will always find some better than others. Iams is at the bottom rung of the ladder, (just based on ingredients), and there are perhaps ethical reasons not to support that name brand either.

Check your labels and try to narrow your choices down based on the quality of ingredients. The more meat, the better the food, the less the chemicals... the better the food... the less the wheats, farines, glutens, and carbs... the better the food.

I think if you view your new choice in those terms, you'll automatically choose a food of more merit.

Your first, or first two ingredients should be meat.
There is an excellent resource called www.dogfoodanalysis.com whereby you can resource many foods . That could really help you make your decision. Use common sense too. IF your dog doesn't have a candidae problem... then why feed a food specializing in it?

Best
:thumbs up

aajb29
March 7th, 2008, 01:07 PM
Could you please clarify what you mean by "candidae problem"? Thanks

want4rain
March 7th, 2008, 02:47 PM
Could you please clarify what you mean by "candidae problem"? Thanks

if i had to guess- perhaps in reference to feeding chicken and rice instead of all life stages??

-ashley

luckypenny
March 7th, 2008, 03:23 PM
Chicken Soup, Adult Formula:

Ingredients
Chicken, turkey, chicken meal, ocean fish meal, cracked pearled barley, whole grain brown rice, oatmeal, millet, white rice, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), potatoes, egg product, tomato pomace, duck, salmon, flaxseed, natural chicken flavor, choline chloride, dried chicory root, kelp, carrots, peas, apples, tomatoes, blueberries, spinach, dried skim milk, cranberry powder, rosemary extract, parsley flake, yucca schidigera extract, L-carnitine, Enterococcus faecieum, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Saccharomyces cerevesiae fermentation solubles, dried Aspergillus oryzae fermentation extract, vitamin E supplement, iron
proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein 24.0% Minimum
Crude Fat 14.0% Minimum
Crude Fiber 3.0% Maximum
Moisture 10.0% Maximum
Sodium 0.3% Maximum
Zinc 150 mg/kg Minimum
Selenium 0.4 mg/kg Minimum
Vitamin E 300 IU/kg Minimum
Omega-6 Fatty Acids * 2.2% Minimum
Omega-3 Fatty Acids * 0.4% Minimum



Canidae All Life Stages:

Chicken Meal, Turkey Meal, Brown Rice, White Rice, Lamb Meal, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Herring Meal, Flax Seed, Sun Cured Alfalfa Meal, Sunflower Oil, Chicken, Lecithin, Monocalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Linoleic Acid, Rosemary Extract, Sage Extract, Dried Enterococcus Faecium, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extract, Inulin (from Chicory root), Saccharomyces Cerevisiae Fermentation Solubles, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Mixed Tocopherols (source of Vitamin E), Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Riboflavin (source of B2), Beta Carotene, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Calcium Iodate, Folic Acid, D-Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Papaya, Vitamin B12 Supplement.

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein(min.)24.00%
Crude Fat(min.)14.50%
Crude Fiber(max.)4.00%
Moisture(min.)10.00%
Lenoleic Acid (Omega 6)(min.)3.70%
Vitamin E(min.)200.00 IU/kg
Calcium(min.)1.20%
Phosphorus(min.).90%
Alpha Linolenic Acid (Omega 3)(min.).60%
Ascorbic Acid(min.)50.00mg/kg
Cellulase (a)(min.)100CMCU/kg
Magnesium(min.)0.14%
pH 6.0

Canidae Chicken and Rice Formula

Chicken Meal, Brown Rice, White Rice, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Flax Seed, Sun Cured Alfalfa Meal, Sunflower Oil, Chicken, Lecithin, Monocalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Linoleic Acid, Rosemary Extract, Sage Extract, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Mixed Tocopherols (source of Vitamin E), Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Riboflavin (source of B2), Beta Carotene, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Calcium Iodate, Folic Acid, D-Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Dried Papaya, Vitamin B12 Supplement.

Crude Protein(min.)26.00%
Crude Fat(min.)15.50%
Crude Fiber(max.)4.00%
Moisture(min.)10.00%
Lenoleic Acid (Omega 6)(min.)3.70%
Calcium(min.)1.20%
Phosphorus(min.)0.90%
Magnesium(min.)0.14%
Vitamin E(min.)200.00IU/kg
Alpha Linolenic Acid (Omega 3)(min.)0.60%
Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) 50.00mg/kg
pH 6.0

The Canidae All Life Stages seems to have more meat than the Canidae Chicken and Rice Formula and perhaps even the Chicken Soup Formula :shrug: . Another member with more experience deciphering ingredients ought to come along soon and clarify.

I honestly don't think any of these are 'bad' foods although I would tend to stay away from grains. However, I would judge them to be of much better quality than most 'popular' brands found in large chain pet supply stores, grocery stores, and at the vet's. I don't think you can go wrong with the All Life Stages or the Chicken Soup.

We fed Canidae before switching our dogs to raw and didn't experience any problems other than with Lucky but, it had to do with his weak digestive system and not the food.

geisha
March 7th, 2008, 04:21 PM
Hi there.
You may wish to try samples of the different brands or a very small bag of each. Things to consider are 1) kibble size for a small breed the smaller bits are easier to chew (help me out here anyone) 2) quality of stool on the food 3) dog's energy level 4) coat quality and 5) how well your pup tolerates the food. Each dog is different. Good idea to switch from IAMS!:thumbs up

the gang
March 7th, 2008, 05:56 PM
you can check in to orgen my pups love it:thumbs up

MerlinsHope
March 7th, 2008, 05:59 PM
Could you please clarify what you mean by "candidae problem"? Thanks

Candidae Albicans

Candidae albicans is a diploid sexual fungus, and a causal agent of opportunistic oral and vaginal infections in humans. Systemic fungal infections (fungemias) have emerged as important causes of morbidity and mortality in immunocompromised patients.

Candidae albicans is among the many organisms that live in the human mouth and gastrointestinal tract. Under normal circumstances, Candida albicans lives in 80% of the human population with no harmful effects, although overgrowth results in candidiasis. To infect host tissue, the usual unicellular yeast-like form of Candida albicans reacts to environmental cues and switches into an invasive, multicellular filamentous form.


What happens to a animal’s system when it is overrun with toxic levels of Candidae Albicans:

Candidae Albicans a common microorganism that lives in the gut and when there is an "overgrowth" of this fungus/yeast in the gut, it is called a systemic yeast infection, and it affects the health and well being of the whole animal or human.

When the dog is on food high in farines, or on antibiotics or stressed, the pH balance of the gut is out of balance, and beneficial bacteria in the gut can be destroyed. This causes this insidious fungus to take over and this overgrowth is very detrimental to our dog's health and well being.

Principale Causes include:

#1: Overuse of antibiotics - over use of steroids. While antibiotics kill off the unwanted infectious bacteria, they also kill off of the good bacteria in your dog's gut.
#2: Over vaccination practices, multivalent vaccines - use of combination vaccines.
#3: Failing or destroyed immune system either from an illness that compromises the immune system, or, a compromised immune system resulting from the us antibiotics, drugs, inbreeding, and stress in all forms.

This also includes:
-Feeding a diet that is not meat based (meat should be first ingredient in your dog's commercial food).
-Feeding grain based diets (grains are first ingredient).
-No probiotics (friendly green tripe bacteria) used when on antibiotics
-No probiotics (friendly green tripe bacteria) on commercial foods or given daily.
-No digestive enzymes, (friendly green tripe bacteria) on the food or given in the diet daily

Based on clinical and research studies, candida overgrowth in the intestines usually helps create what is known as: "Leaky Gut Syndrome".
Toxins and food allergens may pass through the intestinal membrane, resulting in the development of allergies.

Symptoms of Candidae:

Itchy skin or feet
Licking paws, genital or vaginal area
Itchy mouth, throat, face
Nose rubbing
Redness, inflammation and yeasty odor of the inner thigh, between toes, lips, folds of skin, and armpits.
Constant ear infections, bladder infections, sensitivity to light, and finally as the condition progresses; gastrointestinal tract problems, gas, bloat, torsion, possible seizures, malabsorption of foods, suppressed immune system, arthritis and more.


What to Do

ADDRESS your food situation immediately and switch you dog over to a high quality kibble that contains meat and no unwanted grains, or, better, switch over to a RAW diet. You can add apple cider vinegar to your dogs diet as well, make sure it is distilled.

Topical products, such as shampoos, powders and creams, that can kill fungus, and that can be purchased from your vet or pet store to bath and soothe ear and skin issues.

Candidae is incidious. Once your dog has had candidae, it will always be at risk for it again in the future. It is imperative to always avoid foods with grains, in extreme cases, vaccination is no longer an option, nor is the use of anti-biotics, certainly not without serious health reprisals.

MerlinsHope
March 7th, 2008, 06:03 PM
different brands or a very small bag of each.

Actually that doesn't really do very much. A dog has to be on a food for at least 8 weeks to see outright benefits, (other than demonstrating immediate allergies to the food). A small bag of food doesn't really offer enough time to make a valuable assessment.

geisha
March 7th, 2008, 06:57 PM
Umm, Merlin's Hope Candida Albicans is a yeast infection Canidae All Life Stages is a brand of dog food. Canidae is a good quality dog food.

Incidentally, you can notice whether your dog likes or dislikes the kibble from a small bag. If the kibble size is too big or if the dog doesn't like the smell of the food you will notice pdq.
Cheers,
Guisha

Masha
March 7th, 2008, 08:09 PM
CANIDAE All Life Stages is a brand of dog food that has nothing to do with the illness described above.... it is a regular dog food.... maybe the similarities in the spelling of the name caused the confusion...

MerlinsHope
March 8th, 2008, 05:14 AM
Canidae All Life Stages is a brand of dog food.

I'm well aware that we are talking about a dog food. Originally I think it was developed for Candidae Albicans and has since blossomed into a full line of foods.
I thought the person was asking about what Candidae actually was. She/he asked for a clarification on the "Candidae Problem" so I was trying to be helpful.


Incidentally, you can notice whether your dog likes or dislikes the kibble from a small bag.

That's very subjective because hungry dogs don't starve themselves. It's humans who teach them how to become picky and not like food tastes much like we can spoil a child that way.

We can easily serve your dog a bag of food which it will LOVE, but that food could be sugar coated, flavour enhanced, very low end dog food full of addivitves, which we all know is bad for us, so your comment about buying it in order to see if a dog likes it, is completely subjective.

A valid reason of course would be to assess if the food contained any allergens or products which would effect the dog's health, but not for taste.

pitgrrl
March 8th, 2008, 07:27 AM
I'm well aware that we are talking about a dog food. Why do you think it was developed? For Candidae Albicans.
I thought the person was asking about what Candidae actually was. She/he asked for a clarification on the "Candidae Problem" so I was trying to be helpful.


Where did you get the info that Canidea was developed as a food to deal with Candidae Albicans?

MerlinsHope
March 8th, 2008, 08:57 AM
Where did you get the info that Canidea was developed as a food to deal with Candidae Albicans?

I just wrote to Proctol and Gamble asking them for a clarification of such. If I get a reply I'll send it along.
This product line was developed to compete with the competing ultra premium brands which made the clear statement of candidae profiting from foods high in grains, and the entire PG products lines are indeed low quality foods which allowed candidate to flourish. I believe that the original marketing strategy of Canidae was to the veterinary trade as an anti-candidae food, before it was put on the consumer market. I hope to hear from them. If I do, I'll certainly pass their comments along.

pitgrrl
March 8th, 2008, 09:22 AM
I think it's just a name derived from "canine", much like their cat food, which is call Felidae.

I know a ton of people who feed this (a couple who sell it) and it's never been associated with any specific health issues at all, just a basic kibble. :shrug:

luckypenny
March 8th, 2008, 10:06 AM
MerlinsHope, your definition of Candidae Albicans (also known as candida albicans) is right on the mark, but the dog food the OP is inquiring about is Canidae. I can see how the two can be confused.

I think it's just a name derived from "canine", much like their cat food, which is call Felidae.

That's correct Pitgrrl.

The Canidae (IPA: /ˈkænədiː/, ′kanə′dē) family is a part of the order Carnivora within the mammals (Class Mammalia). Members of the family are called canids and include dogs, wolves, foxes, coyotes, dingoes, jackals, and lycaons. The Canidae family is divided into the "true dogs" (or canines) of the tribe Canini and the "foxes" of the tribe Vulpini. The two species of the basal Caninae are more primitive and don't fit into either tribe. Any member of this family can be referred to generally as a canid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canidae

aajb29, I'm hoping this confusion doesn't deter you from using either of these foods to replace Iams. Both are of a much better quality IMO and perhaps equal to each other as well. Nothing wrong with letting your pup choose which one to start with ;) . Monitor his stool and overall health for a period of several weeks to several months and you'll get a good idea of how he's faring on it.

MerlinsHope
March 8th, 2008, 12:42 PM
OP is inquiring about is Canidae.

I understand your point, but you're missing mine.
This food, caNIdae was PG's answer to canDidae which developed from eating their crappy food. Like I said, I wrote to them asking for affirmation. If I hear from them, and I expect I will, I'll pass it along.

Tommysmom
March 8th, 2008, 12:55 PM
According to others who have contacted them, Canidae is not owned by P&G: quoted on 9/13/2007 from another site "I called the company today. They are privately owned and have no intention of selling."

There was a rumour that P&G bought them out (however that has been denied by Canidae)... even so, Canidae was not created by P&G; therefore, it is not possible that P&G created it in response to any canDidae caused by bad food.

This is simply a case of the names being similar but no relation.

luckypenny
March 8th, 2008, 01:22 PM
According to the Whole Dog Journal, Feb., 2008 issue...

Canidae Corp.
San Luis Obispo, CA
(800) 398-1600
canidae.com
Canidae dry dog foods are produced at
Western Pet Food Company/Canidae
Division in Hamlin, TX.

MerlinsHope
March 8th, 2008, 02:30 PM
According to the Whole Dog Journal, Feb., 2008 issue...

Canidae Corp.


ok thanks for the update. I wrote to them instead.
At least I'm up to speed on who owns who.
I'll let you know when/if I hear from the Canidae Corp.

Thankx

mika140
March 9th, 2008, 06:57 PM
I'd go with the idea of getting a small sample bag of each and seeing what your dog likes best. From the input I've heard about both foods, they would be pretty equal to me. I would have preferred Canidae initially and I've heard lots of good results from it (and it's quite economical), but I've also heard about random bags that didn't agree with dogs. Perhaps random formula changes that only affected a batch, but who knows. Nothing extreme to worry about, but considering that I also know of dogs that have done great on Chicken Soup, I'd put them pretty equal on the rating scale at this point. If it were me, I'd leave it up to my dog. And no reason why you can't start one now, try it out for six months or so, then try the other one for the same time period and see what gives your specific dog better results.

Kashi
March 9th, 2008, 07:02 PM
ok thanks for the update. I wrote to them instead.
At least I'm up to speed on who owns who.
I'll let you know when/if I hear from the Canidae Corp.

Thankx


What information are you looking for from them ?

SolaMio
March 10th, 2008, 06:23 PM
I don't want to get flamed for endorsing a brand, and I do not work for Canidae, but I do feed my dog the all life stages lamb formula and she both likes it and is a happy healthy dog. People often remark on her shiny coat as well, which I attribute at least in part to the food because I was feeding her a lower quality food (before I knew the difference) and after about a month I noticed her "dandruff" was gone and the coat itself had a nice sheen. :thumbs up
I don't think every food works for every dog, but this one works for us. :)

Maxine
March 10th, 2008, 06:58 PM
I don't want to get flamed for endorsing a brand, and I do not work for Canidae, but I do feed my dog the all life stages lamb formula and she both likes it and is a happy healthy dog. People often remark on her shiny coat as well, which I attribute at least in part to the food because I was feeding her a lower quality food (before I knew the difference) and after about a month I noticed her "dandruff" was gone and the coat itself had a nice sheen. :thumbs up
I don't think every food works for every dog, but this one works for us. :)

Same here!! :thumbs up

Masha
March 10th, 2008, 07:02 PM
We feed our GSD Canidae All life stages. So far so good.

coppperbelle
March 10th, 2008, 08:10 PM
I am feeding Canidae, All Life stages. Both dogs are doing well on it and love it. I am also feeding it to my fosters.