Pets.ca - Pet forum for dogs cats and humans 

-->

Greeting

Deda Brada
March 4th, 2008, 03:08 AM
Hi everyone!
I am new on this forum, so I want just to greet all of you. I am happy that I have found this lovely place, with people who love both cats and dogs.

I come from a little European country, Serbia, better known as The End of the World. I hope my English, though often incorrect, will not be big trouble for you.

I've got no time for writing long letter, as my sick cat needs to be fed every now and then, and that's why I took my vacation, to be at home and take special care of her.

Many regards to all of you fine people!

rainbow
March 4th, 2008, 04:16 AM
Welcome to pets.ca :thumbs up .....your English looks perfect to me. :D

Sorry to hear about your sick cat. :grouphug: If you post the problem in the Pet Health Forum here perhaps someone will be able to help you. :fingerscr :goodvibes:

hazelrunpack
March 4th, 2008, 10:57 AM
Welcome, Deda Brada!

I hope your cat recovers quickly! :fingerscr

chico2
March 4th, 2008, 11:01 AM
Welcome Deda from Serbia:thumbs up
I hope your cat will be ok:pray:
Your English seems very good to me,we've been in Canada for a long time and my english is far from perfect,but nobody cares:laughing:

FancyAppy
March 4th, 2008, 11:23 AM
Welcome Deda..My best wishes for a speedy recovery for you cat.

Deda Brada
March 6th, 2008, 03:23 AM
Dear rainbow

Thank you and all other fine people (but you were first, that's why this mail is addressed to you) for answering my greeting letter.

I'm afraid that nobody can help me, because my cat is diagnosed with hepatic lipidosis (fatty liver syndrome), which resulted from the last bout of her liver disease, which attacks her every two years, or even less. I have read everything I could find on net. Ultrasound examination showed that liver was fatty, she lost her appetite, of course, so I stay home these days (took my vacation) trying to feed her. My vet (who actually works as the professor of internal medicine at The School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Belgrade) doesn't agree that it is necessary to put feeding tube in her stomach, so I have to be extremely patient and try to feed her every couple of hours.

Many kindest regards to you and all others from Deda

rainbow
March 6th, 2008, 03:44 AM
I am very sorry to hear about your cat. :grouphug:

I think I would get a second opinion regarding the feeding tube. If that isn't possible then have you seen this website? ...

http://www.thensome.com/sandra/

sugarcatmom
March 6th, 2008, 07:49 AM
I'm afraid that nobody can help me, because my cat is diagnosed with hepatic lipidosis (fatty liver syndrome),

I've dealt with HL before, maybe I can help. Along with the force-feeding, are you giving her any supplements to help her liver heal? There's L-carnitine, milk thistle (silymarin), Denosyl (http://www.denosyl.net/). Also appetite stimulants can be useful to get her eating again. Make sure you're feeding her a high protein food.


which resulted from the last bout of her liver disease, which attacks her every two years, or even less.

I think it's important to try to find the cause of these "attacks". What does she normally eat? Is she overweight?

My vet (who actually works as the professor of internal medicine at The School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Belgrade) doesn't agree that it is necessary to put feeding tube in her stomach, so I have to be extremely patient and try to feed her every couple of hours.

Is there some other medical reason why the vet doesn't want to put in a feeding tube? They can be a life-saver and something like an E-tube (goes in through the esophagus) are less invasive to "install". It's also considerably less stressful to feed a cat this way as opposed to force-feeding, especially if you have to do it for any length of time (took 3 months before my HL kitty started to eat on his own). Having done the tube-feeding thing a few times, I'd pick that route over force-feeding any day! Here's some more info for you: http://www.catinfo.org/feedingtubes.htm

Many kindest regards to you and all others from Deda

Welcome to pets.ca!

luckypenny
March 7th, 2008, 12:58 AM
Zdravo Deda Brada. Dobro dosli :) . It's the first I've seen a Serbian on this site :goodvibes: . Moj otac ye iz Pula :) . Your English is a lot better than my Serbian :o .

Kako se zoves tvoya macka? (Sorry, I don't know how to put the proper accents with this computer :o .)

Have you had a chance to read the suggestions already given to you? Sugarcatmom, Rainbow, and Growler are some of our very best cat and nutrition gurus here. I'm sure you and your precious 'macka' will benefit from any information and advice they have to offer :thumbs up.

Zelim ti srecu :fingerscr .

Deda Brada
March 7th, 2008, 02:27 AM
Dear sugarcatmom

Thank you for your worry and advice. I already give some supplements, and they are: S-adenosylmethionine (SAM-e, i.e. "Denosyl") 100mg daily, L-arginine 250mg, L-carnitine 250mg, Taurine 250mg, coenzyme Q10 30mg, vitamin B12 250mcg and "Essentiale Forte" (hepatoprotective herbal extracts) 1 caps. I give everything I have read that can help. I tried ursodiol, too, but her reaction was not good, maybe because she was in an acute state of disease. When we talk about appetite stimulants, there are only two of them which are effective in cats: diazepam (oxazepam) and cyproheptadine. Unfortunately, her liver is damaged from preceding disease so diazepam must not be used. Cyproheptadine is something about which nobody in Serbia has ever heard.

I think the reason against the tube is that she eats by her own will, small meals of course, but somehow she manages to consume the quantity which is her RER (resting energy requirement). The other reason is the article which rainbow advises me to read, the one which I already read (I told you, I have read everything about HL). We'll see. She stopped loosing her weight and I think this is very important thing. Maybe we had some luck to carry out the ultrasound examination which showed HL in its early enough stage. You are quite right, force feeding never leads to success. If she starts to avoid food, then she will get feeding tube.

I think she was hit by a car, or by some cruel man, in August 2001. That was the time when my cats were "free" (free to die, be tortured, acquire some disastrous disease etc). I have read that those cats are more prone to hepatic problems than others. Since that event, she was ill three times. Once it was lymphocytic cholangiohepatitis, two other times there were bouts of infective cholangitis. This is the first time that she acquires HL.

I had luck to come to know professor who I mentioned, and since then I travel with my cats to Belgrade, which is some 55 miles away from the place where I live. You can imagine what stress cat suffers during such travel.The problem with vets here, in Serbia, is that they know almost nothing about cats. Few decades ago Serbia was rural country. Almost nobody carries his/her cat to a vet. Vets live from cows and swines, so they don't have any will to learn about cats. Even "my" professor is not experienced enough, although his theoretical knowledge is great, of course. I have read about some evaluations that in the USA live 55-73 million of house cats! In Serbia, there are maybe few thousand. Our people don't have enough money to live decent life.

Deda Brada
March 7th, 2008, 02:57 AM
Dear rainbow

It's nice to know there is somebody with sympathy for your trouble. Thank you for that. The article you mention in your letter is among the articles which I found very early in my search for HL. It is great, because it shows that man should never give up. Besides, it lists supplements which help for sure.

Lucky you! I can't get second opinion regarding the feeding tube. The only place where they know what we are talking about is The School of Veterinary Medicine, which I mentioned. That's the destiny of Serbian cat-lover (and dog-lover, of course). Imagine this: cat gets sick and you call your vet (any vet in your town). He comes, you tell him about the history of cat's disease, then he takes syringe and some bottle from his bag. After giving the injection you ask what medicament your cat received, and he asks why that is of your concern. After few minutes, when the cat starts drooling he tells you what he gave. You are shocked, you know that preparation is forbidden for cats, you have read that on the web, but, alas, he, the vet, doesn't know it!

Many regards from Deda

Deda Brada
March 7th, 2008, 03:23 AM
Draga luckypenny

Hvala za pozdrav i lepe reci koje si mi uputila. Veoma sam sretan zbog njih. Drago mi je sto sam nasao nekog iz kraja i sto znas srpski. Ovoliko je dovoljno, my heart is full of joy!

From now on, I'll write in English. My cat's name is very hard for writing and pronouncing in English. You must have Cyrillic or ex-Yugoslavia Latin if you want to see it written.

I am grateful for any advice which I receive, and I've already seen that sugarcatmom knows so many things about cats. She's on the way of becoming my "adorable".

Many regards and best wishes from Deda

Love4himies
March 7th, 2008, 07:14 AM
That was the time when my cats were "free" (free to die, be tortured, acquire some disastrous disease etc).

Welcome Deda Brada,
I love your expression about "freedom" in cats, so true.

Sounds like you love your kitty very much and we would love to see pictures of your pets ;).

Deda Brada
March 7th, 2008, 07:41 AM
Hi!

You are right, I love my kitties (more than one, you see) and my bitch more than my life. They are my fur-kids, and though I have my human kids, two sons, and sweet little granddaughter (16.5 months), I look on them as the part of my family. I'd die for them.

Of course, they have Serbian names so it is hard to write them the way you could read and pronounce them.

I have some photos, maybe i post few someday.

sugarcatmom
March 7th, 2008, 07:47 AM
When we talk about appetite stimulants, there are only two of them which are effective in cats: diazepam (oxazepam) and cyproheptadine. Unfortunately, her liver is damaged from preceding disease so diazepam must not be used. Cyproheptadine is something about which nobody in Serbia has ever heard.

It looks like you've got a good handle on this and I commend you for your efforts. It must be tough when the "tools" aren't so easily available. There is another appetite stimulant for cats called mirtazapine (brand name Remeron) which is a human anti-depressant that also works as an anti-emetic. It only needs to be given every 3 days if needed, and it works beautifully (it can also be used in patients with compromised kidney and liver function, but at a reduced dose). Not sure if that would be available in Serbia or not. http://www.VeterinaryPartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&C=301&A=2552&S=0

Anyway, I wish you and your kitty well and am praying for her full recovery.

Deda Brada
March 8th, 2008, 04:13 AM
There is another appetite stimulant for cats called mirtazapine (brand name Remeron) which is a human anti-depressant that also works as an anti-emetic. It only needs to be given every 3 days if needed, and it works beautifully (it can also be used in patients with compromised kidney and liver function, but at a reduced dose).

Dear Sugarcatmom

The sun shines on me though it is cloudy here in Serbia. I've found Remeron at my usual pharmacist. I didn't hear about mirtazapine (Remeron), because nobody established dosage for cat, nor it is allowed for use in small animals. That's why sites which give informations about drugs don't mention it. I suppose your vet knows about it, so you know it from him. My vet doesn't!

Do you have personal expirience with it?

I appreciate your good wishes.

Endlessly grateful Deda

sugarcatmom
March 8th, 2008, 01:01 PM
Do you have personal expirience with it?


Yes, in fact my extra sweet boy, Aztec, had a mysterious episode of vomiting and inappetance just last month. Because he's diabetic it's extremely important that he eat and when even his favorites like chicken baby food and yogurt wouldn't tempt him, off to the vet we went. I keep a supply of cyproheptadine in my cupboard, but I wanted the vet's input on what might be going on. Since he was otherwise fine (temperature, heart rate, urine etc was all good), she prescribed the mirtazapine to deal with both the vomiting and inappetance in one go. She also knows how hard he is to pill so having to give him one dose in 3 days instead of twice a day was great. And the best part is, I only had to give it to him once! Within half an hour he was eating, and even though he did vomit one more time 3 days later, he was still eating so I didn't worry about it too much. He's been great ever since.

The dose for him was 1/4 of a 15mg tablet. He's a big 15lb boy, and because you're dealing with liver problems, I imagine the dose for your girl would probably be less (1/8th?). A word of warning, it can cause some restlessness and slight agitation in cats. My guy would just follow me around everywhere meowing, and didn't seem to want to sleep much for the first day. It wasn't that bad, but if it was, the "remedy" for that is to give cyproheptadine (which doesn't help you much, since you can't get it). Anyway, you might want to talk to your vet about Remeron and see what he says.

Good luck! Let me know how it goes. :fingerscr

Deda Brada
March 9th, 2008, 03:11 AM
Dear Sugarcatmom

Thank you for sharing your experience with me. As I told you before, my vet didn't even hear about mirtazapine or cyproheptadine. No one vet here, in the town where I live, did. We, cat and dog lovers, are almost helpless. No one there can imagine and understand this situation.

That's why I know so much about diseases, medications and their dosages etc. Because, some seven years ago, I was desperate. My cats were dying, while vets were administering medications which couldn't help, some were even harmless for cats! You know very well that cats are very special beings, so different from every other animal. I use to call them aliens. As a vet, some must have hundreds and thousands of cat patients, and have to be devoted to them with all his heart, if he wants to be real vet for cats. Alas, this is not the case with our vets! The same stands for dogs, of course.

Then I began with searching the web, looking for everything I could find about cats. First of all, I was interested in their health, i.e diseases, and nutrition, because it's essential for their health. I know that dry food is not the best choice, but when you live (alone) with several cats, go for work nine hours a day and then come home trying to feed them as good as possible, you don't have so many options. I have printed many articles which seemed interesting to me, so my "archive" contains more then 500 pages, printed in very small font (7-8 dots).

Among other things, I have had luck to run up against dosage recommendations for, I believe, every drug which is approved for use in cats (and other animals) by FDA. They were published on the site of Yale Animal Resources Center which is based at the The School of Veterinary Medicine.

Sorry for this long letter, sometimes human needs to open his/her heart.

Best wishes from Deda

Edited by Marko - IMMEDIATELY STOP GIVING OUT MEDICAL ADVICE AND DOSAGES. EVEN THE LINK YOU PROVIDED HAS A WARNING ATTACHED BELOW. EMAIL ME OR PM ME IF YOU HAVE AN ISSUE HERE.

leo811
July 11th, 2008, 03:12 PM
or anyone else with experience using this medication.

my kitty has been having periodic
eating slumps and its to the point where the vet
has suggested an appetite stimulant. the first mention
was for cypro... but upon hearing it was an antihistime
i was very apprehensive and declined because of side
effects, excellerated heart rate, panting, ect. we visited
the vet yesterday and remeron was suggested (and chosen)
as the med to use. as with any medication info i have read
there are side effects listed, some which are similar to that
of cypro... my question is since you have used the med
have you experienced any side effects? particularly those
associated with respiratory.

thankx
kim

hazelrunpack
July 11th, 2008, 03:15 PM
Kim, welcome to the board.

I doubt that sugarcatmom will see your post in this forum. I think your best bet would be to start a thread in the health forum with a descriptive title. :thumbs up

Good luck with your kitty! :grouphug: :fingerscr

sugarcatmom
July 11th, 2008, 05:53 PM
my kitty has been having periodic
eating slumps and its to the point where the vet
has suggested an appetite stimulant.

What does your cat normally eat, and what else have you tried? I assume blood and urine were tested and nothing was out of the ordinary?

my question is since you have used the med
have you experienced any side effects? particularly those
associated with respiratory.


There were no respiratory side effects when my cat took it, but I wouldn't count that out as a possibility in another cat. Effects I did notice were that he was a bit more "intense", for lack of a better word. Maybe somewhat restless, but not hyper or agitated. I have heard that some cats can become extremely restless, unable to settle down.

Does your cat have issues with vomitting at all? The big benefit of Remeron over cypro is that it suppresses nausea.

hazelrunpack
July 11th, 2008, 08:27 PM
Glad you saw it, SCM! :thumbs up :D

leo811
July 11th, 2008, 10:11 PM
a bit about my kitty. my kitty is almost 20! miracle that he is!
he was diagnosed with high kidney levels 3 yrs ago and we have
been doing subQ since... he has always been a finicky eater sometimes
vetoing several cans til he gets one he feels like eating. his fav's vary
but after the recal scare he doesnt eat any with wheat gluten and prefers
to stick with friskies and sometimes some other brands... since this was his
third time going a few days without much (less than 1/4 reg size can) eating (his norm is at least one reg size can a day, sometimes two, plus baby food)
i took him to see his dr and do his blood test again. he had it done 3 mo. ago
when he began to look a bit dehydrated. there weren't much change in his levels so instead of doing subQ 150 every other day i started 100 a day and that seems better. his new levels showed to major things. first, his kidney levels are fantastic, dr used the word miraculous! one was normal and the other was just over normal! so that is great news. but it also showed high amayaze (sp?) which indicated pancreatic inflammation... we had already decided to go with the remeron before and with this result dr said good choice since it will help with tummy issues (nausea and gurgling i hear). then we will prob add in some pain medication. my question re the side effects is becuz i am cautious to start today (just got it in the mail) when the dr is closed. i would prefer to wait til mon and dr said thats fine, but i also want to do whats best for my kitty. he is eating the same not much amount and i dont want him to starve but i also dont want some horrible side effect episode with no help available. that is why i asked about someone who has used it as my dr has gotten approval of it from other dr's but hasn't yet used it on a pt til us.

long winded sorry, but i give backstory well!

thankx for your info sharing
kim and meeper do!

glasslass
July 11th, 2008, 10:12 PM
Deda, I know nothing about your cat's illness, but I sincerely hope your cat's appetite improves and you both obtain some relief. That's the best thing about this board. There are so many pet lovers here and I've found they have a wealth of knowlege and offer so much support. It's what keeps me always coming back.

leo811
July 11th, 2008, 10:13 PM
im sorry, im so wrapped up in my kitty stuff
didn't mean to be rude,

thankx for the welcome hazelrunpack!