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Cosequin DS for Hip Dysplasia

dodo
March 3rd, 2008, 02:08 AM
Hello guys,

I am wondering where do you buy your Cosequin DS. I am in toronto and i found that the best place to order is US. Can you please post where you buy them and how much?

Are there any alternate for Cosequin DS. My dog has been diagnosed with Hip Dysplasia :(

Thank you

hazelrunpack
March 3rd, 2008, 09:23 AM
We use Cosequin DS. I believe we order it from Lambriar... http://www.lambertvetsupply.com/sbsite.php?search_query=cosequin

It's the cheapest we've been able to find. With 8 dogs...well, you can do the math! I try not to dwell on it... :p

We've tried other glucosamine/chondroitin products, but Cosequin works best for us.

I've seen recent discussions about Cartrophen Vet (available in Canada), as well--an injectible arthritis medication. You might want to talk to your vet about that.

Has your vet talked to you about other things you can do for hip dysplasia, as well? Like good diet, keeping your dog's muscles well-toned with moderate exercise, and keeping his weight on the light side of normal? Hip dysplasia can be a very well-managed disease.

Good luck with your dog, dodo. :grouphug:

dodo
March 3rd, 2008, 12:39 PM
We use Cosequin DS. I believe we order it from Lambriar... http://www.lambertvetsupply.com/sbsite.php?search_query=cosequin

It's the cheapest we've been able to find. With 8 dogs...well, you can do the math! I try not to dwell on it... :p

We've tried other glucosamine/chondroitin products, but Cosequin works best for us.

I've seen recent discussions about Cartrophen Vet (available in Canada), as well--an injectible arthritis medication. You might want to talk to your vet about that.

Has your vet talked to you about other things you can do for hip dysplasia, as well? Like good diet, keeping your dog's muscles well-toned with moderate exercise, and keeping his weight on the light side of normal? Hip dysplasia can be a very well-managed disease.

Good luck with your dog, dodo. :grouphug:

Hello hazelrunpack,

I would like to thank you for taking the time to provide me with your opinions.

Cosequin:
I was looking whether the extra benefit of Cosequin DS over other types of dog supplements AND over human brands one exceed the extra cost of Cosequin DS. Cosequin DS is the most expensive one. I was not inclined to purchase human brand ones but wanted to know whether Cosequin DS is better than other types of dogs supplements such as Nuvet joint plus. The Nuvet joint plus contatin MSM which is why i cant decide at the moment between Cosequin DS and Nuvet Joint plus. I have also read a lot of good reviews about Nu Joint Plus from people. Do you know anything about Nuvet Joint plus?

Since my dog was diagnosed with Hip Dysplasia a year ago and the vet said it was mild, i dont think i will need injections at this point. But i dont know nothing about injections, so i will ask my vet and research more on the product you mentioned.

Regarding his weight, I am controlling his diet and he is pretty lean.

Regarding his diet, i am feeding him Canidae. What is your opinion on Canidae?

I will also add in his diet a vitamin such as Nuvet vitamin or pets tab? Do you give vitamin to your dogs?

I am also researching on other supplements to add on such as Omega oil. What do you think?

I am kind of worried and want to take the maximum precaution for my boy.

Thank you for your opinion. We really appreciate it.

dodo
March 3rd, 2008, 12:40 PM
If anyone else want to share their experience, we will really appreciate it.

Thank you in advance for taking the time to post.

hazelrunpack
March 3rd, 2008, 01:22 PM
For mild joint dysplasia, the things that have worked well for us involve the weight issue, good diet, moderate exercise, glucosamine/chondroitin, and an oral NSAID for those times when the dog is achey from having 'overdone'. :D

We tested the Cosequin DS against other products back in the 90s when we had a dog with severe HD. The Cosequin was far and away the most effective thing we found at the time. Not sure if it was because it's made to pharmaceutical standards, or just that the fine grind of the powder is more effectively absorbed by the digestive system, but we could see a definite improvement with Cosequin over other products.

There may be something more effective out there now. Currently we have two dogs with very mild elbow dysplasia, so we've not had to look for anything that might be more effective, such as a product with MSM. I've heard a lot about MSM, but have no experience with it, and I've never heard of Nuvet Joint Plus. :o (Sorry. It has been a long time since I've done any research on new products.) Maybe some of the other members will chime in and give you some advice.

Same goes for Canidae. I don't have a personal opinion about it, but I know a fair number of people who use it. I'm far from a food guru. :o We switched to Innova a few years back when we started reading labels. :shrug: When I joined pets.ca, I was relieved to find that the food we'd chosen stacked up pretty well. :D The food forums here are quite informative--you may want to browse through them. I'm sure there's good information on Canidae.

We do use a product called Lipiderm--it's a blend of omega-3s, omega-6s and vitamins A and E. I don't use it as often or as liberally as recommended because, frankly, vitamin A has always scared me with its toxicity (it's a 'stored' rather than 'excreted' vitamin) but we give it to them 2 - 4 times a week at about half dose. Any good fish oil product would be beneficial. It helps skin and fur condition, boosts the immune system, and seems to promotes general tissue health in the animal. I've been told that fish oil can strip the vitamin E from the body, so if you can find one that includes vitamin E, that's a plus.

For minor aches and pains when they've played too hard, we've tried a lot of the oral NSAIDs...aspirin, etogesic, rimadyl, deramaxx. All of them are effective, but have their downsides. Our dogs don't tolerate any of them for very long, so we typically try not to use any NSAID more than two days in a row. So far (knock on wood, :fingerscr, throw salt over hazel's shoulder, don't step on any cracks, please! not that I'm superstitious, mind you...just don't want to jinx anything :D ) we've not needed to treat with an NSAID for any longer than 48 hours.

Okay, enough of hazel's novel. Hopefully some of the other members will chime in and give you some product specific answers. :D

dodo
March 3rd, 2008, 04:27 PM
:DFor mild joint dysplasia, the things that have worked well for us involve the weight issue, good diet, moderate exercise, glucosamine/chondroitin, and an oral NSAID for those times when the dog is achey from having 'overdone'. :D

We tested the Cosequin DS against other products back in the 90s when we had a dog with severe HD. The Cosequin was far and away the most effective thing we found at the time. Not sure if it was because it's made to pharmaceutical standards, or just that the fine grind of the powder is more effectively absorbed by the digestive system, but we could see a definite improvement with Cosequin over other products.

There may be something more effective out there now. Currently we have two dogs with very mild elbow dysplasia, so we've not had to look for anything that might be more effective, such as a product with MSM. I've heard a lot about MSM, but have no experience with it, and I've never heard of Nuvet Joint Plus. :o (Sorry. It has been a long time since I've done any research on new products.) Maybe some of the other members will chime in and give you some advice.

Same goes for Canidae. I don't have a personal opinion about it, but I know a fair number of people who use it. I'm far from a food guru. :o We switched to Innova a few years back when we started reading labels. :shrug: When I joined pets.ca, I was relieved to find that the food we'd chosen stacked up pretty well. :D The food forums here are quite informative--you may want to browse through them. I'm sure there's good information on Canidae.

We do use a product called Lipiderm--it's a blend of omega-3s, omega-6s and vitamins A and E. I don't use it as often or as liberally as recommended because, frankly, vitamin A has always scared me with its toxicity (it's a 'stored' rather than 'excreted' vitamin) but we give it to them 2 - 4 times a week at about half dose. Any good fish oil product would be beneficial. It helps skin and fur condition, boosts the immune system, and seems to promotes general tissue health in the animal. I've been told that fish oil can strip the vitamin E from the body, so if you can find one that includes vitamin E, that's a plus.

For minor aches and pains when they've played too hard, we've tried a lot of the oral NSAIDs...aspirin, etogesic, rimadyl, deramaxx. All of them are effective, but have their downsides. Our dogs don't tolerate any of them for very long, so we typically try not to use any NSAID more than two days in a row. So far (knock on wood, :fingerscr, throw salt over hazel's shoulder, don't step on any cracks, please! not that I'm superstitious, mind you...just don't want to jinx anything :D ) we've not needed to treat with an NSAID for any longer than 48 hours.

Okay, enough of hazel's novel. Hopefully some of the other members will chime in and give you some product specific answers. :D

Thanks hazelrunpack.

Everyone who uses Cosequin DS loves it :D and its good to hear that. The website you posted for Cosequin DS appears to be in US. How much is shipping if you dont mind? I am located in toronto between.

One more thing, I am thinking if i go with Cosequin, i will not go on maintenance level, i will stay with 3 to 4 caps a day since my dog is around 75 to 70 pounds. What do you think?

Thanks for the advice on Lipiderm. I would research more on that later

I am not sure i understand how NSAID works. So, one will only give NSAIDs when their dog has played too much and is limping a little bit after and stop as soon as progress is seen. It is like a pain killer then. Is that right? Is it a prescription for the different meds you have stated such as rimadyl and deramaxx? If not, where do you buy them and how much dosage is recommended?I will do more research on these 2 meds. I will also talk to my vet before i do anything.

Thank you again for your time

hazelrunpack
March 3rd, 2008, 09:18 PM
I see you started a new thread :thumbs up I was thinking about it over dinner and was going to suggest it, since more people have experience with HD than with Cosequin. :D Funny how great minds think alike, eh? :laughing: :o

But to answer your question, the shipping is not cheap. I think our last order it was something like $15 US. And Lambriar LVS is in the US. Shipping depends on what method you choose and what your postal code is--should be listed on the website, or if not, at least give you a phone number you can call. And check around--you may be able to find a supplier closer to you that has better prices!

You may not need to stay at the higher dose of Cosequin--and you may not want to. Since the glucosamine, when digested, seems to split off a glucose molecule in the gut, there is some...um...fartaciousness (a fancy word I invented because it sounds better than "gas" :D) that often results. 3 caps will probably suffice. Although each dog reacts differently, our 50-pounders are on 2 caps a day. So 3 sounds about right for 70 - 75 lbs.

But if you have to go higher for good results, you can, and I suspect he'd eventually get used to it. As expensive as it is, no sense in giving more than you have to, though. And you can always up the dose if necessary later. So experiment with it and see what works for your dog.

NSAIDs are non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs. Aspirin and ibuprofen are both human NSAIDs. But never give any non-aspirin NSAID without checking with a vet first, since human versions can be quite toxic to dogs. Aspirin is okay, but check with vet for a safe dose. And always give aspirin with food because the same risks of stomach bleeding and ulcers hold for dogs.

NSAIDs are pain relievers, but they also act to reduce the inflammation that results from over exercise. Inflammation is instrumental in arthritic changes, so minimizing it is very helpful in controlling HD. (This is why you should discuss Cartrophen with your vet, even if your dog doesn't seem too painful--Cartrophen is a longer-acting antiinflammatory agent.)

So yes, we give NSAIDs when one of the dogs is limping on the affected limb. Typically, we give one dose past the disappearance of the the limp, and then discontinue. And we've been lucky (knock on wood, etc...:o) in that just the couple of doses have been enough.

Etogesic, Rimadyl, and Deramaxx are by prescription only and blood tests to check for liver damage are necessary if they're used for long periods of time. You may have other NSAIDs available to you there. Your vet will be able to suggest one.

Okay, did I hit all of them? I think so... I hope so cuz this is getting long-winded again. :laughing:

dodo
March 3rd, 2008, 11:53 PM
I see you started a new thread :thumbs up I was thinking about it over dinner and was going to suggest it, since more people have experience with HD than with Cosequin. :D Funny how great minds think alike, eh? :laughing: :o

But to answer your question, the shipping is not cheap. I think our last order it was something like $15 US. And Lambriar LVS is in the US. Shipping depends on what method you choose and what your postal code is--should be listed on the website, or if not, at least give you a phone number you can call. And check around--you may be able to find a supplier closer to you that has better prices!

You may not need to stay at the higher dose of Cosequin--and you may not want to. Since the glucosamine, when digested, seems to split off a glucose molecule in the gut, there is some...um...fartaciousness (a fancy word I invented because it sounds better than "gas" :D) that often results. 3 caps will probably suffice. Although each dog reacts differently, our 50-pounders are on 2 caps a day. So 3 sounds about right for 70 - 75 lbs.

But if you have to go higher for good results, you can, and I suspect he'd eventually get used to it. As expensive as it is, no sense in giving more than you have to, though. And you can always up the dose if necessary later. So experiment with it and see what works for your dog.

NSAIDs are non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs. Aspirin and ibuprofen are both human NSAIDs. But never give any non-aspirin NSAID without checking with a vet first, since human versions can be quite toxic to dogs. Aspirin is okay, but check with vet for a safe dose. And always give aspirin with food because the same risks of stomach bleeding and ulcers hold for dogs.

NSAIDs are pain relievers, but they also act to reduce the inflammation that results from over exercise. Inflammation is instrumental in arthritic changes, so minimizing it is very helpful in controlling HD. (This is why you should discuss Cartrophen with your vet, even if your dog doesn't seem too painful--Cartrophen is a longer-acting antiinflammatory agent.)

So yes, we give NSAIDs when one of the dogs is limping on the affected limb. Typically, we give one dose past the disappearance of the the limp, and then discontinue. And we've been lucky (knock on wood, etc...:o) in that just the couple of doses have been enough.

Etogesic, Rimadyl, and Deramaxx are by prescription only and blood tests to check for liver damage are necessary if they're used for long periods of time. You may have other NSAIDs available to you there. Your vet will be able to suggest one.

Okay, did I hit all of them? I think so... I hope so cuz this is getting long-winded again. :laughing:

Thank you again for taking the time to post such an excellent answer :lightbulb:

Your explanation of NSAID is very clear.

I am thinking to add these supplements:
1) Cosequin DS Chewables ( 3 Capsules Min to 4 Capsules Max) I will start from 3 and see how it goes. Do you use chewables one?

2) Pure MSM ( I am thinking to use human ones, i will have to compare prices and then decide) not sure about dosage yet

3) Omega/Fish oil (not sure whether pet or human ones)

4) Multi vitamin ( most likely will go with pet brands as contain too many different ingredients)

Those 4 above will be the everyday maintainance. I will have to do more research on the NSAIDS. Please also note that i will consult my vet for final approval in case anybody wonders.

What do you think?

Thanks again

hazelrunpack
March 4th, 2008, 09:45 AM
Sounds like a plan. :thumbs up

Definitely use pet vitamins, though, as requirements differ by species.

We've always used the powdered Cosequin. We thought about the chewables, but it's just as easy for us to open the capsules and sprinkle it over their food. Also, when we were starting them out, we'd split the capsules between two bowls when we were moving down to a 'maintenance' dose--we couldn't have done that as easily with a chewable.

You'll have to post back on how the chewables work. Also the MSM. The methylsulfonylmethane seems to have a lot of anecdotal evidence backing it, but little on the scientific side. That being said, though, when we had our severely dysplastic dog, Priscilla (back in 1990) and took her to see a leading veterinary orthopedic, he pooh-poohed glucosamine/chondroitin. By the time we did Priscilla's second hip, the same doctor had heard so many glowing anecdotal reports from his clients that he was singing its praises. :D The same may end up being true for MSM.

dodo
March 5th, 2008, 01:35 PM
Sounds like a plan. :thumbs up

Definitely use pet vitamins, though, as requirements differ by species.

We've always used the powdered Cosequin. We thought about the chewables, but it's just as easy for us to open the capsules and sprinkle it over their food. Also, when we were starting them out, we'd split the capsules between two bowls when we were moving down to a 'maintenance' dose--we couldn't have done that as easily with a chewable.

You'll have to post back on how the chewables work. Also the MSM. The methylsulfonylmethane seems to have a lot of anecdotal evidence backing it, but little on the scientific side. That being said, though, when we had our severely dysplastic dog, Priscilla (back in 1990) and took her to see a leading veterinary orthopedic, he pooh-poohed glucosamine/chondroitin. By the time we did Priscilla's second hip, the same doctor had heard so many glowing anecdotal reports from his clients that he was singing its praises. :D The same may end up being true for MSM.

Hello hazelrunpack,

My bulldog will take the chewable without any problems lol. I would just add it with his kibbles.

I spoke to my vet and he said its fine to feed human ones but the only thing is a lot of the supplements for human do not contain the exact amount of ingredients they claimed and sometimes the other ingredients (fillers) may be bad and not processed properly ( something like that he mentioned lol).

I have therefore made my decision and did a whole lots of calculations to see how much would it cost for me to buy human ones versus dog pharmaceutically approved ones. For now, i am buying

SUPPLEMENTS:

1) Cosequin DS chewables. Since my bulldog is 65 pounds, i will give him 3 tabs a day and for maitenance, i might give him minimum 2 to maximum 3. My vet said the same thing as you did and that i can go with the maintenance mode :)

2) From the website, i will be ordering, they only have 2 types of pure MSM for pets:

a) NaturVet MSM. One tablet contains 500 MG of MSM. I am not sure if this product is pharmaceutically approved or not but it is not that expensive. So, i will be adding 2 tablets a day.

b) Vitaflex MSM. It does not come in capsules. Cheaper as the bottle is one pound and can be taken by doog, horse, cats.

I think i am going to stick with NaturVet MSM since i prefer capsules unless i read something bad about the brand "NaturVet".

3) Salmon Oil versus Lipiderm Versus 3V caps

I would prefer to use capsules and so Salmon Oil will be out since the website i will be buying has Salmon Oil liquid only.

I am leaning over Lipiderm over 3V caps at the moment. If i go with Lipiderm, I will be buying the ones for medium breeds and give 3 capsules a day. The ones for medium breeds is cheaper as compared to the large breeds since they come in bottles of 500 capsules versus large breed of 120 capsules.

4) Muti vitamin
My vet told me i dont need to add multi vitamin if his dies it good. At the moment, i dont really the vitamins from the website i will be ordering. I think i will hold off to it. However, if i do add one, it will be Nuvet Plus.

I am going to buy a 4 to 6 month supply for him.

FOOD:

I will stay with dry food at the moment. He likes his food and from my understanding, dog owners only change food when they are not happy with their current food such as if the poops are loose, skin problems, lot of gas, lots of sheddings, etc. I am very happy with his food and i dont think i will change at the moment. Canidae is rated 5 stars out of 6 stars on a website. The other food which caught my interest is Taste of the Wild.

I think that's all for now in terms of long term supplements.

Also, when i will see my vet for the blood test, vaccines etc, i would discuss the NSAID with him AND also Adequan. I have yet to do a good research on Adequan. From what i have been reading, some people would give their dogs one shot of Adequan a month for those whose dogs have mild HD.

Thank you for taking your time to educate me. We really appreciate it. I think i am comforable with the supplements i will be giving him.

Take Care,
dodo

Esaunders
March 5th, 2008, 02:44 PM
There are additional options to look into for joint issues:

- Adequan intramuscular (IM) injections. Used frequently in horses to combat joint issues especially hock damage, there IS a canine product for this. Because Adequan is IM, all joints end up dosed which is actually a good thing

-Intra-articular (into the joint capsules, IA) injections of Sodium Hyaluronate are frequently performed in horses with joint problems. It may be possible in dogs, you'd have to ask. The hips are big joints, so it might work.

- Oral Sodium Hyaluronate, this is becoming a big addition to common joint supplements. I've seen fantastic results with this product in particular, most others (esp. powder based) not so much. http://www.hyaluronex.com/ Its a pure HA solution so could be given to dogs. A one month supply bottle would probably last a dog 3-4 months. They will ship to canada.

The oral supplement would be a daily thing. The IM injection option has a loading dose period and then 'tune-ups' when necessary. The IA option would be as needed but more infrequent as IA has a greater infection risk with the introduction of a needle into a joint capsule. In horses the IM and IA products are often used together if the owners wallet can take it.

Just some additional options. I haven't seen tons of improvement with Glucosamine or Chrondoiton supplements. I have seen visible and rapid improvements with the options above. If you have a vet that would work with you, they could teach you to give the IM injections yourself. Vets that deal with large and small animals are the best to approach for this.

dodo
March 5th, 2008, 03:16 PM
There are additional options to look into for joint issues:

- Adequan intramuscular (IM) injections. Used frequently in horses to combat joint issues especially hock damage, there IS a canine product for this. Because Adequan is IM, all joints end up dosed which is actually a good thing

-Intra-articular (into the joint capsules, IA) injections of Sodium Hyaluronate are frequently performed in horses with joint problems. It may be possible in dogs, you'd have to ask. The hips are big joints, so it might work.

- Oral Sodium Hyaluronate, this is becoming a big addition to common joint supplements. I've seen fantastic results with this product in particular, most others (esp. powder based) not so much. http://www.hyaluronex.com/ Its a pure HA solution so could be given to dogs. A one month supply bottle would probably last a dog 3-4 months. They will ship to canada.

The oral supplement would be a daily thing. The IM injection option has a loading dose period and then 'tune-ups' when necessary. The IA option would be as needed but more infrequent as IA has a greater infection risk with the introduction of a needle into a joint capsule. In horses the IM and IA products are often used together if the owners wallet can take it.

Just some additional options. I haven't seen tons of improvement with Glucosamine or Chrondoiton supplements. I have seen visible and rapid improvements with the options above. If you have a vet that would work with you, they could teach you to give the IM injections yourself. Vets that deal with large and small animals are the best to approach for this.

Thank you so much Esaunders. This a lot of new info for me to digest lol.

My dog only limps when he plays too much. By limping, i mean anywhere between: after sleep or resting after a heavy play time, when he walks at first, it takes a couple of movements for him to walk properly AND actually limping. Usually, after one to 2 days, he is back to 95% plus capacity. Knock on wood, i hope he stays like that or recover faster :candle:. By 3rd to 4th day, he is completely back to normal. Sometimes, by day 2( i mean the day after he plays), he is completely back to normal.

I have only heard of Adequan to be honest with you. I was planning to ask my vet next time i visit him for vaccines whether i can used Adequan, one injection per month for maintenance mode. My dog is 65 pounds and not sure how many shots he will need. I read that a shot is 5ml and lots of dog owners whose dogs have MILD HD, they used a shot once per month. So i am taking that to mean 5 ml once per month. I am very new to Adequan and there is ton of research for me to do on this.

ADEQUAN:
In my situation, i guess Adequan can help him not limp at all after a heavy play day OR recover faster. But then even for dogs that do not have HD, after a heavy play, they sometimes limp. Same apply for humans after excersing too much. Thats what my vet always tell me and he says i dont need to worry that much. By heavy play, i mean off leash/ play with other days once every 2 to 3 months. My vet told me he would let the dog play more often. Between, He is turning 3 years this year. I guess if Adequan does not have side effects, i will add it to his supplement list but the question is when will i add it? I definitely need to do more research.

Never heard of Oral Sodium Hyaluronate? I will check the website you mentioned when i get some free time in the weekend?

Thanks again for all your help

hazelrunpack
March 5th, 2008, 03:49 PM
Sodium hyaluronate! Definitely new since last time I found myself doing HD product research. I'll have to look into that. Thanks, Esaunders!

dodo...just a word of caution on the oil capsules--start out slow. Oil can cause diarrhea so it's best to start slow and let the dog's gut adjust to it, then up the dose a little, adjust, up the dose... So maybe one capsule to start. If that seems okay after a few days, go to two, etc.

kandy
March 5th, 2008, 03:51 PM
If you are thinking of giving the Cosequin DS and an additional MSM supplement, you should look into using Dasuquin intead. Although it is a bit more expensive than Cosequin, and is available only through a vet, it saves giving an additional supplement. Dasuquin comes in a formula with MSM and one without. The main difference with Dasuquin is the addition of ASU's (avacado/soybean unsaponifiables).

You are right in that the human forms of joint supplements aren't reliable and may not contain what the label says it does. Apparently the cheaper the supplement, the more likely it is that it DOES NOT contain what it says.

I also replied on your other thread. :)