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Raw and cancer, new kid

tiOurs
February 28th, 2008, 03:03 AM
Hi,
I'm new, I'm visiting from the Dog Cancer forum which I've had the misfortune of posting to for moral support frequently since my little italian greyhound mix was diagnosed with hemangiosarcoma. The good news is she (a 20 pound dog) had a 2 pound spleen removed with no other organ involvement and she's doing fabulously 5 weeks post surgery. :cloud9: Since surgery she's on a completely raw diet. I'm just going with my instinct.. she's getting Variety brand raw medallions and raw chicken with bones, beef (with bones) and eggs. If I can find anything else I'll give her that and I"m hunting a source of green tripe since I'm hearing so much about it. I'm not being very scientific about the feeding, however she really looks fabulous. My reason for coming here, besides learning more about feeding raw is to try and see if those of you who feed raw are experiencing less cancer than those who feed cooked, commercial, kibble, etc. Most folks on the Dog Cancer forum are just learning about healthier diets but few, if any, I might be the only one.. are feeding raw. In fact I got into a discussion with a vet on the forum whose claim is that feeding raw is very dangerous due to pathogens picked up at slaughter houses. So I'm interested in what anyone has to say regarding raw diet and cancer frequency.

growler~GateKeeper
February 28th, 2008, 03:32 AM
There is a thread here with some info about Green Tripe http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=49114

Have a look through the raw forum you'll find lots of info :)

To change your screen name, since you can't pm yet, you can email Marko our admin - info@pets.ca

Good luck w/your little girl :goodvibes: we would love to see pics which you can add after posting a bit.

tiOurs
February 28th, 2008, 03:57 AM
hi it's me again.. I reregistered with a new username, my girl's name. I'd love to post pictures of her but I have very few because she's afraid of cameras!!! silly greyhound! I probably have one of her running away from the camera.. she's beautiful.

I guess I'll read these raw posts for a while to see if cancer topics come up.. so far I've seen a few other health issues but no cancer. On the dog cancer forum they say the cancer rate in dogs is fifty percent once they reach the age of 2. It's ridiculous. I think it's because so many people feed commercial food. I don't think the rate is fifty percent here on this raw diet thread. That's very interesting.

rainbow
February 28th, 2008, 04:01 AM
Welcome to pets.ca and sorry to her about your little girl.

I think more and more people are slowly starting to realize that raw is best to feed for dogs with cancer. If not raw then definitely a grain free kibble.

You can buy canned green tripe at most pet stores that carry the premium/holistic dog foods. Trippett and Solid Gold are well known brands.

tiOurs
February 28th, 2008, 04:07 AM
how does the canned compared nutritionally to the fresh or frozen? Do they actually leave the grass in the tripe?

tiOurs
February 28th, 2008, 04:17 AM
OK here she is slinking away when I tried to get a picture of her in her little cheerleading sweater!

tiOurs
February 28th, 2008, 08:20 AM
good morning!

It's cold here in north florida! there's frost on the pumpkin-- echhh!!

I put a diet/cancer poll over on the pet recipe thread. I'd sure appreciate if ya'll would wander over there and click on the appropriate button.. I realize we've got mostly raw feeders here.. hopefully some non-raw folks will answer the poll too.

tiOurs
February 28th, 2008, 08:23 AM
there are some great quotations here.. Rainbow I love yours.. makes me want to cry. I love the one somethink like: if the bottom falls out of your world go to the can and let the world fall out of your bottom.. I don't see where you add signatures...

want4rain
February 28th, 2008, 09:21 AM
you think rainbows is enough to make you cry, check out a few of the others!! welcome to pets.ca! and the world of raw feeding.

diet unquestionably contributes to cancer. Cyberkitty, a local cancer doc (of children none the less) might be able to tell you more about that. considering we (dogs and people) are all carbon based life forms, -mammals to boot- would suggest many of the same basic concepts of cancer would apply.

http://www.who.int/dietphysicalactivity/publications/facts/cancer/en/

High intake of preserved meat or red meat might be associated with increased risk of colorectal cancer.

http://www.gopetsamerica.com/dog-health/barf-faq.aspx#grains

check out those sites, do some hunting around on the net for what to feed and what not to. a quick glace around suggests that red meats may contribute (possibly due to all of the hormones in it??) and that omega's help fight it or prevent it. so this would suggest to me to stay away from beef and other red meats and really up the fishy/eggy foods and supplement omega and also look into foods with high antioxidants.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

do a search for chicken liver, raw.

this is a great source for the raw meat's nutritional content but you wont find meat in bone. i found a site a few months ago... bookmarked it and now cant find it- that listed the different meats with the bone in. ill look a little harder a little later tonight.

when feeding raw, think whole prey. there is far more to feeding an animal than just bones and muscle! look towards feeding organs too. the usual ratio is 10% bones, 10% organs (with 5% of that being liver) and 80% muscle. if you can find a source of fish with the organs still in, perhaps other small game with the organs still in to make sure she is getting a source of lung, stomach(tripe), heart, pancreas, ect. i would suggest upping the liver a bit because of its nutritional value.

to say again, i dont know jack about cancer (even human) but a cursory glance says totally cut out grains, probably cut out red meat, feed a little more liver and lots more fish and egg for omegas. i would also wager that going organic would be a good idea. they have no pesticides, hormones and are also fed an appropriate diet. FYI chicken is not allowed to have antibiotics or hormones administered (in the USA).

another thing you may want to look into is coconut oil.

keep us posted on her progress!! and get some pictures up!! did you email marko abotu your other name?? he may want to delete it.

-ashley

want4rain
February 28th, 2008, 09:31 AM
It's cold here in north florida! there's frost on the pumpkin-- echhh!!

frack!!! its pretty cold here in NC too!!!

-ashley

hazelrunpack
February 28th, 2008, 10:01 AM
good morning!

It's cold here in north florida! there's frost on the pumpkin-- echhh!!


frack!!! its pretty cold here in NC too!!!

-ashley

Wussses! :p

I don't have any experience with raw, tiOurs, but I wanted to welcome you to the board and wish you all the best with your pretty girl! :grouphug: :goodvibes:

pitgrrl
February 28th, 2008, 11:02 AM
check out those sites, do some hunting around on the net for what to feed and what not to. a quick glace around suggests that red meats may contribute (possibly due to all of the hormones in it??) and that omega's help fight it or prevent it. so this would suggest to me to stay away from beef and other red meats and really up the fishy/eggy foods and supplement omega and also look into foods with high antioxidants.



I'm a bit confused by this, are you saying that excessive intake of red meat has
been linked to cancer in humans and then extending that to dogs?
I was under the impression that including some red meat was important in a raw diet :shrug:

want4rain
February 28th, 2008, 11:35 AM
I'm a bit confused by this, are you saying that excessive intake of red meat has
been linked to cancer in humans and then extending that to dogs?
I was under the impression that including some red meat was important in a raw diet :shrug:

:shrug: heck if i know. i dont know ANYTHING at all about cancer other than basic common knowledge. in the wild dogs wouldnt bring down a cow... if i had to make some really uneducated leaps of whatever, id say the problem with red meat would be that most human consumed red meat is cow, cows are full of junk, junk has been suggested to cause cancer.... :shrug:

this is what Wiki says about it-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_meat#Cancer

im a-shrugging away over here. :)

-ashley

Gibbons
February 28th, 2008, 11:42 AM
I think the one thing we all have to notice is that the cancer rate in dogs and cats is HUGE and most eat a fully processed, chemically-treated food.

I also think that since the cancer rate in PEOPLE is going up, probably proportionally (is that even a word?) to our intake of processed foods, we should be taking notice. What I mean by that is the more processed foods people eat, the more cancers we seem to get.

If dogs + processed food = high cancer rate, and people + processed foods = increasing cancer rate... I wonder if the processed food is related?

Just my paranoid ramblings as I eat my processed deli meats for lunch!

JulesMichy
February 28th, 2008, 12:07 PM
I guess I'll read these raw posts for a while to see if cancer topics come up.. so far I've seen a few other health issues but no cancer. On the dog cancer forum they say the cancer rate in dogs is fifty percent once they reach the age of 2. It's ridiculous. I think it's because so many people feed commercial food.

I do know that Science Diet and their prescription brands like c/d, etc. still use carcinogenic preservatives like BHA and ethoxyquin. In fact, I work with dogs and one of ours, Demeter, has "food allergies" (we all know what that usually means) and is fed z/d. I checked the side of the bag yesterday, and sure enough, BHA and ethoxyquin were listed among the ingredients.

want4rain
February 28th, 2008, 01:09 PM
we decided to go organic or all natural (ie only natural preservatives like citric acid and rosemary and such) 3 years ago. no fast foods, i make what i can from home (spaghetti sauce, mac&cheese, pies, soft granola bars, etc) or buy it local.... there is a lady who makes pasta and its soooooo good!!! fresh or dried, super yummy. she has some funky looking pastas she makes that are just out of this world. im raaaaaambling.... im one of those ladies who will spend time reading lables, if i dont knwo what it is i will write it down and take it home and look it up!! buying fresh local produce is also quite rewarding. as is growing your own (and its cheaper that way too!). thankfully im a stay at home mom so that gives me the chance to really explore our different options.

i asked around a few of the doctors in the area and they all (5 or 6 of them) eat organic or all natural or local. figured it might be a good idea. :)

-ash

pitgrrl
February 28th, 2008, 02:08 PM
So I found this, it's just a small quote, but is more along the lines of things I've read or heard:

William Pollak D.V.M. -
"Processed foods and drugs have seriously depleted the natural vitality and immune systems of many pets. Whereas large amounts of red meat can cause cancer in humans, a lack of RAW red meat in an animal's diet can lead to serious health problems. Animals require the enzymes, amino acids and other nutrients in the raw meat in order to stay healthy.
http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/animals.htm

OxyMK
February 28th, 2008, 02:11 PM
Welcome tiOurs! This forum is the absolute best! so much info and knowledge here! Also, welcome to the world of raw!

I've been feeding my two dogs raw food since August 07 and it was the best switch I've ever made. I also thought I was well researched, but I seemed to have learned to much more forum. I already posted this story on different thread, but I switched to a raw diet becuase my dog was diagnosed with Hip Dysplasia and I was searching for anything that will make her healthy, not only in weight, but her overall well being. Thatís how I came across raw diet. It made sense to me, so I tried it. I know a raw diet cant help cure something like HD, but after a little over a week of feeding her raw, she was no longer nipping at her hips. Before she would nip at them all day long, especially when we would walk her. Also, I donít know if it was the diet, the vitamins I started giving her or a combination of all, but she is so much healthier. Her coat is shinier, she doesnít have as much of a hard time getting up from a seated position, her body is toned, she has great energy and so much more. To me, putting her on a raw diet is worth it when we look at her and how much she has changed just from last August.

want4rain
February 28th, 2008, 02:59 PM
right, Wiki said some little blurb about COOKED red meat being the problem, which obviously wouldnt impact a raw fed dogs diet. :thumbs up (i love this little face and never get a chance to use it!!!)

-ashley

MerlinsHope
February 28th, 2008, 03:31 PM
those of you who feed raw are experiencing less cancer than those who feed cooked, commercial, kibble, etc

How tragic to hear of your little girl, but at the same time, however wonderful that to date you've been able to treat her and keep her with you. That's already such a tremendous achievement.

It's more than difficult to speculate whether or not raw feeding helps cancer in any way no more so, than proper nutrition in a human would. Raw feeding does not promise to extend the life of dogs, if anyone tells you that, they are gravely mistaken. Raw feeding represents a healthy way of living the way Mother Nature intended.

Unfortunately there are too many mitigating factors which can govern the outcome of cancer in any dog, most of them genetic or environmental, which includes / over vaccination policies and the extensive use of absorable flear/tick type pesticides.

Certainly feeding raw leads to wellness all across the board, but outside of mastcell cancer which is highly genetic, I think that most experts will agree that cancer in dogs is more likely an environment issue, more so than anything else right now. It's really sad to see.

At least by feeding her raw you certainly reduce the overall stress on her body and certainly help eliminate any ingested contagens or contaminants for additives in commercial kibble which could harm her, although commercial raw may also contain unwanted additives so you may want to check what's in your package of meat.

Are you on any type of protocol for her cancer?
There are a great many things you can do, even holistically if you like which can certainly help boost her immune system.

Best
Merlin

MerlinsHope
February 28th, 2008, 03:40 PM
those of you who feed raw are experiencing less cancer than those who feed cooked, commercial, kibble, etc

Unless you eat certified organic meats, Red meats usually always contain high amounts of antibiotics, pesticides, and steroids. It is those products contained in the meats that contribute to cancer and other illnesses.

You may find this site interesting (for a variety of reasons)
http://www.meat.org/

JulesMichy
February 28th, 2008, 06:21 PM
I know a raw diet cant help cure something like HD, but after a little over a week of feeding her raw, she was no longer nipping at her hips. Before she would nip at them all day long, especially when we would walk her.

OxyMK: Glucosamine and chondroitin supplements can help to ease the grinding between joints in problems like arthritis and hip displasia. Trachea is a good natural source of chondroitin, and fun for your dog to chew on. My local pet food depot sells them pre-packaged from a company called Free Range. The treats are a variety of different lamb parts, called Baa! treats.

OxyMK
February 28th, 2008, 07:16 PM
Thanks, JulesMichy. I have been giving Oxford Glucosamine/Chondroitin tablets for about 6-7 months now and she seems to be doing good. I also read that Ester-C has been found to help dogs with HD. I just started to give it to her. I figured its worth a shot. I know we are probably go ahead with the surgery, but we have to wait until we have enough money saved up. So in the mean time, we keep her on a raw diet, give her vitimins, keep her weight down, excercise her (without over doing it), amongst other things.

These dogs really are the world to us, huh?

MerlinsHope
February 28th, 2008, 08:08 PM
Ester-C

Actually unless you have a young puppy with osteo problems, Vitamin C should be avoided at all costs, as it acts as an inhibitor and stops or alters the absorption of essential vitamins and minerals.


Merlin

luckypenny
February 28th, 2008, 10:07 PM
MerlinsHope, is there any documentation you can refer me to so that I can read up on that?

MerlinsHope
February 29th, 2008, 05:38 AM
There are some 'soft' articles which relay snerps of studies at sites such as :
http://www.petplace.com/dogs/dangers-of-holistic-medication-in-dogs/page1.aspx
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=444845
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/501447_4

Vitamin C is a well known inhibitor. This is nothing new.
(the same way in which Vitamin C inhibits bacterial activity, it can also inhibit bio molecular activity which could be considered beneficial to dogs.)
1994, the New England Journal of Medicine
But you can probably download the actual study from Pfzier at MED Docs/ (it's not free)
The study was done both on dogs and on guinea pigs.

Bruce N. Ames, Ph.D., of the University of California, Berkeley
Balz Frei, Ph.D., director of the Linus Pauling Institute at Oregon State University, Corvallis
1997 study demonstrating the Vitamin C alters DNA and can cause gene damage. (I don't have a source for a printed version of that study sorry, you'd have to contact Berkeley)

You can pick up a lower costing version at
http://k9joy.com/dogarticles/#linkaccess

I believe the dispensing of vitamin C was first started by breeders who gave doses to lactating bitches and then used amongst the GSD breeders for puppies who display symptoms be being down in the pasterns. However, the moment the condition was corrected, the vitamin C was stopped to avoid any potential issues.

Unlike humans and guinea pigs, a healthy dog synthesises it's own vitamin C, so essentially the use of it as a supplement is redundant say some.
There are always risks involved when we dispense additives and supplements to our dogs.

Essentially it's always a trade off. By treating arthritis with vitamin C, you may be causing another potential problem down the road due to the inhibition of any needed minerals or nutrients. Vitamin C is a paramount apparently, if your dog is bitten by a snake. It helps inhibit absorption of venom.

Personally I find that many people subscribe to supplements all too quickly without understanding or considering the biological and chemical consequences.
Most people have a tendency to automatically equate their dog's needs to those of a human, and of course, this is not a sound approach.

Merlin

want4rain
February 29th, 2008, 12:41 PM
Vitamin C is a paramount apparently, if your dog is bitten by a snake. It helps inhibit absorption of venom.

got some more info on that??? dosing? we have several poisonous snakes that live here (and we see regularly), couple that with the part time creek in the back yard.... needless to say the kids are ALWAYS SUPERVISED and quite educated as to what to do in the situation of finding one....

anyways i digress.... my sisters father lost her dog to a snake bite here. drought conditions bring them to outdoor dog bowls and such. maybe ill start another thread.... hmmmm....

-ashley

MerlinsHope
February 29th, 2008, 01:49 PM
Snakebite issues - you can read a fairly good rendition of the study done by Dr Wendell Bellfield, in California and snake bite issues. The text actually carries some testimonials from people who's dogs have suffered snake bites.
It's probably very credible since as mentioned "C" is an inhibitor!

http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/HEALTH/vitc.htm

CyberKitten
February 29th, 2008, 06:43 PM
I am so very sorry to hear of this type of cancer. It is as you know more common in dogs than in cats. Have you completed chemo (doxorubicin or another med or a combo?) with the surgery? I am glad she is doing well!! Bravo for her and for you!!I only know of this site of a dog who had this type of cancer and had this diet and it is listed on the site. In your shoes, I would communicate with Ginger's person and found out if they felt the diet was helfpful and what they would do do differently? And I would read as much as I could on research. As a hematologist, I have a plethora of info but alas, it is mainly on humans.

My thoughts and prayers are with you and Ginger!! :grouphug:

tiOurs
February 29th, 2008, 08:47 PM
I'm very fortunate to know and work with a chinese traditional vet who's world renowned; he teaches vets from all over the world acupuncture, herbs and other tcvm stuff at his clinic near here in north florida. He's fabulous. My girl is on herbs from him. I worked at the vet school for a while and observed, as I also observed from the canine cancer forum that the success rate using chemo is abysmal. In addition I just didn't want to put my girl through that and it has never made sense to me to use chemo that suppresses the immune system when it's already not functioning correctly. My mother made the decision with her colon cancer and lymphoma to just have surgery and no chemo or radiation. That was almost 10 years ago and she's been very healthy since, with no chemo sickness. No matter what happens at this point I don't think there's any question that she made the right decision. So based on that and what I've observed elsewhere I've stayed away from western type cancer therapies.

I'm thrilled with how good tiOurs looks 6 weeks post surgery (today) on the raw diet and herbs. She very lively, she beats the daylights out of her big brother in play, she runs with me, she's gained muscle and fat and her coat feels softer and glossier than I ever remember it feeling. Funny she grabbed a mole out of the ground the other day and I thought she was going to eat it and I was thrilled--some real prey! but she didn't, she just mouthed it a bit and left it so I was left feeling terrible for mr mole.

It's interesting. Maybe it's just a feeling but I don't hear anyone on this forum mentioning all their pets that have died of cancer. I've lost almost seventy five percent of my pets; dogs, cats and a chicken to cancer in the last 10 years and if you go on the cancer forum website many people there have lost multiple pets to cancer. :rip: are you guys here on this website just not talking about it here? or is there something we're doing wrong that you're not telling us?? :confused:

I've never gotten into using these little smiley faces but they are sort of cute, aren't they? :highfive:

well it's good to meet ya'll. If you want to feel very lucky go hang out on the dog cancer forum for a while.. it's horribly sad. everyone there is dealing with one or more dogs with cancer. http://www.dogcancer.net/forum/

tiOurs
February 29th, 2008, 08:52 PM
oh wise ones please tell me:

1) how do I add a cool signature line like all you guys have?
2) how do I include a quote from another post in the cool box like you all are doing?
3) where do I find answers to these types of questions without bugging you guys?

tiOurs
February 29th, 2008, 08:58 PM
hey I have a big fat question for all you raw feeders. The main reason I've heard that folks don't want to feed raw is because of "deadly" pathogens such as samonella and campylobacter that are picked up in processing plants. A vet told me that he treated a dog that almost died of food poisoning that had been fed raw. So they say I should cook her food a bit to kill such bugs. What do ya'll say about that?

OnelnAMiII25
February 29th, 2008, 09:56 PM
good morning!

It's cold here in north florida! there's frost on the pumpkin-- echhh!!

I put a diet/cancer poll over on the pet recipe thread. I'd sure appreciate if ya'll would wander over there and click on the appropriate button.. I realize we've got mostly raw feeders here.. hopefully some non-raw folks will answer the poll too.

I have a Neopolitan Mastiff with pancreatic innsuffenciy (excuse my spelling). When we first found out, or it actually might be b4 we found out what she had, we tried every type of food for her. She wasn't gaining any weight and her stools were never formed, these were the 1st signs. So we tried the raw diet. Well besides being disgusted from the raw meat and cow insides, it made her (excuse the grossness) have, what we like to call, "greasy farts" She was excreating yellow oil stuff. I'm guessing it was because of her illness. After we found out what she had, we changed her diet to all vegetables and grains. That worked for awhile, but still not gaining any weight (she was 70-75lbs at age 2, when she should have been 120-150) We finally food that the Science Diet perscription WD food worked the best. She's went up to 80lbs (we recently moved from nj with my family to illinois, and she gained 15lbs, she's now 95lbs) She's nice a big now, but she's going thru some skin problems, but thats a whole other story that i've written a thread about.

I know this doesn't give you any insight into the raw diet, but i thought i would share with you. Good luck!!

OnelnAMiII25
February 29th, 2008, 09:59 PM
hey I have a big fat question for all you raw feeders. The main reason I've heard that folks don't want to feed raw is because of "deadly" pathogens such as samonella and campylobacter that are picked up in processing plants. A vet told me that he treated a dog that almost died of food poisoning that had been fed raw. So they say I should cook her food a bit to kill such bugs. What do ya'll say about that?

What about getting the meat from an organic farm... is that an option? Or do those farms have diseases too? Maybe something to look into.

MerlinsHope
February 29th, 2008, 10:14 PM
hey I have a big fat question for all you raw feeders. The main reason I've heard that folks don't want to feed raw is because of "deadly" pathogens such as samonella and campylobacter that are picked up in processing plants. A vet told me that he treated a dog that almost died of food poisoning that had been fed raw. So they say I should cook her food a bit to kill such bugs. What do ya'll say about that?

Deadly patogens are everywhere and anywhere.
Please read this (http://www.clubequestre.com/sharpeihealth/index.php?topic=231.msg1025#msg1025)... it should answer your questions.

Merlin

OxyMK
February 29th, 2008, 10:56 PM
Hey tiOurs- Where in N. Florida are you? Im in Jacksonville (go jaguars!...sorry couldnt resist:laughing:).

growler~GateKeeper
March 1st, 2008, 12:55 AM
It's interesting. Maybe it's just a feeling but I don't hear anyone on this forum mentioning all their pets that have died of cancer. I've lost almost seventy five percent of my pets; dogs, cats and a chicken to cancer in the last 10 years and if you go on the cancer forum website many people there have lost multiple pets to cancer. :rip: are you guys here on this website just not talking about it here? or is there something we're doing wrong that you're not telling us?? :confused:

For me personally I have only had 1 pet out of 6 (both cats & dogs) die of *suspected* cancer - we lost her too soon for definative testing. Hard to say why, same with people, if we knew all the causes we would be so far ahead in prevention/treatment.

oh wise ones please tell me:

1) how do I add a cool signature line like all you guys have?
2) how do I include a quote from another post in the cool box like you all are doing?
3) where do I find answers to these types of questions without bugging you guys?

To add a signature go to the blue navigation bar above the thread listings, click on "User CP", then on the left hand side under "Settings & Options" click on "Edit Signature", it will give you a box to add your sig to

To add a quote from another post you click on the "quote" button in the lower right hand corner of the reply you want to quote...or you can click on the quotation " button on upto 4 replys, like I did here with yours, then click the post new reply button

You can check out the FAQ section, go to the same blue navigation bar, click on "FAQ" there is a list of questions w/answers there

Any more questions - ask away :D

hey I have a big fat question for all you raw feeders. The main reason I've heard that folks don't want to feed raw is because of "deadly" pathogens such as samonella and campylobacter that are picked up in processing plants.

I'm raw feeding my cat who got Kidney Failure from eating tainted prescription Royal Canin vet food, all the chemicals in non-holistic commercially prepared kibble/canned scares me far more than bacteria that is either killed by freezing or the acid in the stomach.

want4rain
March 1st, 2008, 09:11 AM
hey I have a big fat question for all you raw feeders. The main reason I've heard that folks don't want to feed raw is because of "deadly" pathogens such as samonella and campylobacter that are picked up in processing plants. A vet told me that he treated a dog that almost died of food poisoning that had been fed raw. So they say I should cook her food a bit to kill such bugs. What do ya'll say about that?

thats not really a big fat question.

take a look at this site-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis

and also this one-
http://rawfed.com/myths/bacteria.html

im sorry, i was looking for an actual study that showed kibble fed dogs shed salmonella and what kinds of molds are present on the different grains in kibble.

needless to say, harmful bacteria is EVERYWHERE. your bathtub (of which your kids slurp up bath water), your kitchen sink, if which you 'wash' dishes in, OUR dry cereal, breads, the floor your dog licks, who knows what lives in your carpeting...:yuck: your car steering wheel.... thats a real doozy!!!

does my dog sometimes get an upset stomach??? yeah... when the silly thing buries chicken in the back yard and its a daytime high of 95f and then eats it two days later. but will it kill him?? unlikely.

the only times you shoudl ever partially cook your meat are when you are trying to trick your dog/cat into eating raw :laughing: or if you have a sick puppy, sick senior or a dog/cat have a compromised immune system. feline HIV, for example.

-ashley

CyberKitten
March 1st, 2008, 04:43 PM
I have had seen some older cats who were brought to my grandmother (a dyed in the wool cat lady - amg many other things) die of cancer- and for some reason - and I have no scientific data at all to know why - the most common type of cancer was lymphoma. My guess is that many people discovered their pet was ill and so they brought her/him to gram, saying "I am moving, ill, whatever, ie - some useless excuse) and she took the cat and thus paid the vet bills. She should have been a vet and not a nurse!

I have seen many miracles with chemo - but I work in pediatrics. I have to admit I have not seen many with no chemo but understand if an adult opts to not have chemo - it is their life after all and they need to do what is best for them and their own beliefs and whatever research they have done. I do not want to debate THAT issue - I seem to have done more discussion that I have needed lately (I am supposed to be off work for a few days getting some rest but like many health care professionals, I am not all that goof at listening it would appear, lol)

I do believe we have not done nearly enough (more like next to nothing) in ascertaining the etiology of the carious cancers. We have made great strides in chemo and radiation - and even as a physician, I am not fond of radiation and am anxious to see the results of the long term studies on children who have had chemo and radiation to see how they fare as adults. (ie will the radiation lead to more cancer?) About 20 yrs ago, acute leukemia in a child was a death sentence- six months at the most was the suggest outcome. Now, it is rare I have patient who dies from that dx. If they do, there are complications or the cancer was caught not in time or they developed some infection or some other problem that led to more illness. And we also have better chemo - it is less nauseating and we are better at treating pain- especially in children - than we were as well. I also use guided imagery with some success - especially when I am performing bone marrow transplants, aspirations or other painful or stressful procedures. I took a course on it even tho most of my colleagues scoffed. However, I have an aunt who is a psychiatrist and she promotes therapy over medication and recommended an excellent program. I have read many of the alternative medicine studies and what I wish is that they were more regulated and done in a way that we could compare them more adequately with so called traditional medicine. I used to believe in Linus Pauling's work even before I went to med school - and now there are studies in credible journals (ie ones not funded by drug companies and edited by reputable people in their fields) suggesting Vitamin C does not help prevent cancer after all or even a cold. I still take it- too much won't hurt you but it is just wasting it - and it has few interactions (though some) that are contraindicated with other meds.

I am not as knowledgeable about other alt meds tho I do give my cats Rescue remedy and one - which has been studies extensively in Europe called cocculine - which is an excellent relaxing med. It also works in humans. Cocculine seems to work better than RR for my cats and it is less sedating and I use it very sparingly - mostly for one cat who is not a good traveler. It was great for my bunny when I brought him places during longer vacations but he became a wonderful traveller as well.

I do have one friend who claims her cancer - a form of stomach cancer - was cured by a regimen of alternative meds though she also did some chemo as well just to make sure she got most. She was a Roman Catholic nun and I also think anyone who has a strong will to live or a raison d'etre or cause they believe in - if it is religion or something else- gives one the edge in fighting any illness. I know that has helped me (I have several illnesses and fought cancer successfully twice.) I took the minimum amt f chemo available which is what I discuss with my patients' parents- how aggressive they want to be.

However, all that said, until we as a society get to the root of what is causing cancer- pollution, electromagnetic fields, the many carcinogens that do not even have to be placed by law in Canada on various products (you will find them in many cosmetics, even the pre made salads one sees in stores turn some substances in your body into formaldehyde which is a carcinogen so it is not merely the substances you need to watch for, it is what they do once they interact with other enzymes and products in your body, something not given much thought even by oncologists, sigh!) I refuse to eat anything made at the grocery store that has been pre cooked and is say in the frozen section. I have to assume the bakery is but I prefer to either buy my bread at a health food store or make my own. I grew up in part on a farm so while I lad a busy lifestyle, it does not mean I can take time to make a good meal with nutrients and also do the same for my pets.

As to my dogs and cats and rabbits, only the rescued ones ever died of cancer. My poodle died of heart failure at 17 tho he was under the care of a vet cariologist , our fox terier died at 21 whe n his heart gave out - he had grown old and he had so many issues that we put him to sleep so he would not suffer any more. He'd had one heart attack and had arthritis badly and we did not want him needlessly suffering. My beagle died too young (15), again of a respiratory illness he developed while at the vets recuperating from a broken leg - he was rough housing with a friend and I heard the leg pop. Of course, I still wonder what meds he was given at the vets, sigh. It wa sonly later that he came down with a cold that became pneumonia.

Anyway- I am going on and I do not want to sound like a blathering idiot and you do not need my pets' health records. My bunny died of ileus and for some reason, I am still distraught by that - I feel I should have done more even tho he was the oldest bun in the country at the time (undocumented though - just that he was older than the one documented in the Guinness Book as the oldest domestic bunny in the world, 14- mine was 16). I even wonder if my mom who was visiting gave him too much clover which can kill animals because it has the same effects as warfarin or heparain or way too much ASA - acting like an anti coagulant. But he did not bleed to death - I paid for a necropsy and it was ileus, which is a common cause of death for bunnies.
I did rush back and forth to a specialist at the vet school - a 14 hr trip both ways and he may have lived longer but did I just prolong his agony? He was always happy but lie cats, bunnies hide their pain. Anyway- sorry to go on about him. I am as you can tell not over his death and won't be for awhile. I did become known as the "bunny lady" at my vets though since she was not knowledgeable about buns - which is why I had to seek out a specialist - and thus had to learn so much.

It's great that you are learning more about your dog's illness. If you need any info - I am not expert on dogs' cancer as I said- but have many journals and info but by now, you probably do too. I am glad you have a vet you trust - that is important. Some people often take what they get and do not seek other opinions. Sometimes, well meaning vets - and GP's with humans- incorrectly diagnose cancer but I am sure that does not surprise you. Our system is far from perfect. I do wish every small community had access to good pathologists - ie for doing the tests re diagnosis - (not necropsies et al!!!) - and with video conferencing ,we do but we do not utilize it as much as we should.

I have reads many of the stories of pets with cancer and sponsor a cat at imom.org, a place that pays for people who cannot afford the care their pets often need. Many vets now do bone marrow transplants and many wonderful treatments for animals and the whole area of cancer in dog, cats and rabbits is a growing area. That's good news - not because we are seeing it more, but because it has always been there and we have said "well, it is a pet and should we go this far." To those of us like you who would do anything to save our pets if it means a quality life, we do not even pose the question.

My best to you and Ginger - she is a lucky dog to have you, opinionated and all. :) (Most of the time, one has to be opinionated- if I had not been,I am convinced my dad would be dead!)

Sorry for the length - I have alas lived up to my rep as longwinded!

tiOurs
March 3rd, 2008, 12:16 AM
Deadly patogens are everywhere and anywhere.
Please read this... it should answer your questions.


I'm raw feeding my cat who got Kidney Failure from eating tainted prescription Royal Canin vet food, all the chemicals in non-holistic commercially prepared kibble/canned scares me far more than bacteria that is either killed by freezing or the acid in the stomach.

needless to say, harmful bacteria is EVERYWHERE. your bathtub (of which your kids slurp up bath water), your kitchen sink, if which you 'wash' dishes in, OUR dry cereal, breads, the floor your dog licks, who knows what lives in your carpeting... your car steering wheel.... thats a real doozy!!!

This is what has always made sense to me, you all are confirming it. I've been singing raw's praises on the Canine cancer website and sort of arguing (who ME???) with a vet there. "Cancervet" brought up the bit about campylobacter and samonella, says that they get past stomach acid and folks on that website all seem to believe it. Horses carry samonella, when they get stressed or weakened they can get sick from it. I'm sure we're killing ourselves with the disinfectants we use to kill off the bacteria that we, as a species have survived with for thousands (millions?) of years. Horse manure is a delicacy to my girl, dead stuff is the best stuff to eat and she rolls in what's left. And to be honest, maybe I'd rather lose her to food poisoning than cancer. Been there, done that.

My bunny died of ileus and for some reason, I am still distraught by that

Some of them just get you that way. I'm still not over my kitty who died of lymphoma almost 10 years ago. I raised a possum named Blossum who I swear I'd have mortgaged the house to keep healthy. they just do it to us. btw possums are very unfairly maligned. :yell:

OK time for beddy bye... :sleepy:

growler~GateKeeper
March 3rd, 2008, 12:39 AM
And to be honest, maybe I'd rather lose her to food poisoning than cancer. Been there, done that.

Is it better that something avoidable is going to kill her rather than something from unknown origins? I think not.

And unless we can accurately identify all the causes of every cancer - it's not going to be 100% preventable. Food poisoning, when perpetrated by humans, such as my case and thousands like it, was not only preventable it was an unneccessary and avoidable risk to their lives because the people, aside from us their guardians, supposed to care most about our pets (the vets and their food industry) were greedy & negligent in their duty to protect them.

Dying from one is not any worse than the other, in the end they still leave too soon.

tiOurs
March 3rd, 2008, 01:09 AM
And unless we can accurately identify all the causes of every cancer - it's not going to be 100% preventable.

It would be nice to get it to something below 50% occurance which apparently it is now for dogs over 2 years old.

Dying from one is not any worse than the other, in the end they still leave too soon.
Way too soon. I find myself wondering if it's worth it after I lose one.