Pets.ca - Pet forum for dogs cats and humans 

-->

Extraneous toenails on face?

hazelrunpack
February 19th, 2008, 09:43 AM
I'm happy to say that I saw these threads a while back so this did not freak me out as much as it would have otherwise:

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=31515

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=21108

Brier appears to have toenails growing on his cheek under his left eye. :dog:

About two weeks ago, I accidently bumped him in the face and he yelped. When I checked the spot, I saw what looked like a very lumpy black scab, so I figured he'd been tusslin' with someone and gotten injured. But it looked clean, so I left it. It's easy to miss because the black scab blends in so well with his other spots, so I forgot about it.

Yesterday, though, I was cleaning away an eye goober and felt the spot again. By now, if it were a scab, it should be loose and crumbling and ready to fall off. But it was hard and seemed larger.

When I looked at it, I saw this:

33628

See it there, just to the E of that largish lower black spot?

hazelrunpack
February 19th, 2008, 09:47 AM
Whatever it is is hard like a nail, curves like a nail, is growing as fast as the rest of Brier's nails, and actually has a bit of a gloss to it like a nail has.

Hubby thinks it's just an irritated histiocytoma with a large scab, but when I first saw it, it had one lump...it now has split into a cluster of two. :shrug:

Brier is going in on Saturday to have it looked at. Anyone want to take any bets as to whether the vet thinks mutant nails, histiocytoma or something else?

Here's some other shots to help you place your bets: :D

33631

33632

33633

(And I'll bet you guys thought I was kidding. :crazy:)

breeze
February 19th, 2008, 09:57 AM
sorry to say that is very very wierd..

never saw anything like that before.. but it does blend in with his black spots!!:thumbs up

If it is a toenail do you think the vet will cut it?? can you cut it?? does it grow??

ooo a "sabertooth Brier" one of a kind at Hazelrunpack's place..:D

hazelrunpack
February 19th, 2008, 10:04 AM
Yeah, I think you just keep it trimmed. There isn't a quick in it--just the outer keratin husk. One of the posters in the other threads mentioned that a border collie had one on its neck and another on its tail that eventually just fell off and the skin reverted to normal :shrug:

If it turns out that it is easily irritated and gets bloody when he's going through underbrush or tall grass, though, we'll likely have to have it removed. I'm hoping it'll just go away :fingerscr

Or that it turns out to be a histiocytoma--because they do resolve on their own. :thumbs up (But then hubby will be able to say "I told you so." :rolleyes:)

breeze
February 19th, 2008, 10:12 AM
For your sake I hope it just goes away!!

:fingerscr:goodvibes::grouphug:

hazelrunpack
February 19th, 2008, 10:21 AM
Me, too! Not to mention hazel, madame hazel and "Two Dogs Facing Off" have all their :fingerscr, toes crossed, and crossed :pawprint:s! We're stumbling around like we've gotten into the catnip.... :o

breeze
February 19th, 2008, 10:38 AM
the only thing I can cross is my toes, cause if I cross my figures and eyes I won't be able to work :eek:

so toesw will have to do but I could send you :goodvibes::goodvibes: and a :grouphug:

Frenchy
February 19th, 2008, 11:27 AM
omg that is sooo freaky !!!! weird !

oh oh I know what it is , it's Brier's twin trying to get out :laughing:

:sorry: it's not funny :sad:

hazelrunpack
February 19th, 2008, 11:37 AM
:laughing: Are you maybe thinking that it's Brier's alternate personalities breaking free? :crazy: Oh, no! hazel's craziness has rubbed off on her boy! :eek:

Frenchy
February 19th, 2008, 11:48 AM
:laughing: Are you maybe thinking that it's Brier's alternate personalities breaking free? :crazy: Oh, no! hazel's craziness has rubbed off on her boy! :eek:

omg Hazel , did you ask hubby to inspect you ? Just in case Madame Hazel would like to come out ? :crazy:

So if this is a nail , they will have to do surgery on it ? But nails grow out of tiny bone , how can he have a tiny bone in his cheeck .... this is so weird ! :yell:

hazelrunpack
February 19th, 2008, 11:52 AM
It wouldn't be a full nail--just the hard outer layer. I believe the keratin sheath is made by cells in the skin, just as skin cells are made. A small mutation occurs et voila! You get aberrant nail sheaths. There isn't a quick. According to what's posted in the other thread, you keep them clipped close to the skin to prevent too much irritation and hope they eventually fall off :fingerscr.

hazel's not gonna be doing any clipping till the vet tells us for sure what it is, though. :o

(We've been looking for eruptions of madame hazel but haven't found any yet! :eek: :crazy:)

bendyfoot
February 19th, 2008, 11:53 AM
That is a LOT of cool weirdness!!!:D

Never heard of that before, but glad I have now. If I ever found a nail somewhere strange on our dogs I would FREAK, but now that I know that this can happen I wouldn't be so worried about it.

hazelrunpack
February 19th, 2008, 11:58 AM
hubby still thinks I'm nuts... He may be right. :laughing:

breeze
February 19th, 2008, 12:21 PM
Do you think it hurts when it grows??

does it bother his eye sight??

hazelrunpack
February 19th, 2008, 12:32 PM
Do you think it hurts when it grows??

does it bother his eye sight??

I think it's sensitive if it gets whacked, but otherwise he isn't pawing at it or scratching it, so I don't think it bothers him. :fingerscr And it's too far from his eye to interfere so it shouldn't bother his eyesight, either.

hazelrunpack
February 19th, 2008, 12:40 PM
The vet called it 'hyperkeratosis'...now I gotta go look it up on the web.

hazelrunpack
February 19th, 2008, 12:50 PM
sigh...I don't see anything similar to what Brier has, so there must be more to it than "hyperkeratosis"...

Luba
February 19th, 2008, 03:28 PM
Oh wow you know that is alll too weird.... I dunno what to say about it maybe it's a a a a alien or a parasitic twin that didn't develop man thats odd.

rainbow
February 19th, 2008, 07:02 PM
sigh...I don't see anything similar to what Brier has, so there must be more to it than "hyperkeratosis"...


I didn't find anything either. :shrug: What did your vet say to do for it? :o

hazelrunpack
February 19th, 2008, 09:44 PM
I didn't find anything either. :shrug: What did your vet say to do for it? :o

The vet had just called hubby to give him Ridge's lepto titer results and hubby took the opportunity to ask him if he'd ever heard of such a thing. Dr Kevin just gave him the name and didn't seem to think it was a big deal, and hubby didn't ask him what you do about them... Brier has an appointment Saturday--he'll tag along for Ridge's nose check. We're still not sure if it's the nail thing or a really weird histiocytoma.

It may turn out we don't have to do anything about them--the longer of the two whatever they are got knocked off in a wrestling match shortly before dinner. :shrug: It doesn't look nearly as impressive now. :laughing:

Luba
February 19th, 2008, 10:24 PM
http://www.histiocytosis.ucdavis.edu/reactive.html


http://www.histiocytosis.ucdavis.edu/images/thumb/SH-bmd-face_thumb.jpg

Nodular lesions and alopecia affect the skin AND the visible ocular and nasal mucosae are involved. Note the chemosis in the conjunctiva and corneal edema. The nasal apex is swollen and depigmented; there is a crusty nasal discharge and the dog had stertorous respiration indicating infiltration and swelling of the internal nasal mucosa.


http://www.histiocytosis.ucdavis.edu/images/thumb/SH-bmd-tm_thumb.jpg
After treatment with thymosin (6 weeks). Modern immunosuppressive drugs (Leflunomide or cyclosporin) have achieved more consistent and better responses







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cutaneous histiocytosis (CH) is a histiocytic proliferative disorder that primarily involves skin and s ubcutis and does not extend beyond the local draining lymph nodes. CH occurs in a number of breeds. Evidence of spread beyond the skin would invoke the diagnosis of SH, a closely related disorder. Lymphadenopathy has not been emphasized in published reports, and has only been documented in a small number of our cases. The lesions occur as multiple cutaneous and subcutaneous nodules up to 4 cm diameter. They may may disappear spontaneously, or regress and appear at new sites simultaneously. Topographically lesions may be found on the face, ears, nose, neck, trunk, extremities (including foot pads), perineum and scrotum.

Luba
February 19th, 2008, 10:26 PM
First Ridge's nose now this weird thing. I wonder if there is some sort of correlatiion??? Possibly I dunno?

hazelrunpack
February 19th, 2008, 10:29 PM
I saw something similar to that, too, Luba. Was sort of scary till I came across a reference that said that histiocytomas were not related to histiocytosis. Whew! The histiocytosis page I found didn't show the pics, though--man that looks awful, doesn't it? :eek:

hazelrunpack
February 19th, 2008, 10:30 PM
First Ridge's nose now this weird thing. I wonder if there is some sort of correlatiion??? Possibly I dunno?

I think Brier's weirdness is different than Ridge's :D, but we're wondering if the onset of leptospirosis had anything to do with Ridge's folliculitis. :shrug: Lepto can cause some pretty weird skin lesions.

Luba
February 19th, 2008, 10:40 PM
Maybe Brier's face clawed Ridge's nose :laughing:

No really I know it's NOT funny... so I"m reading the wrong stuff...hmmm

So the 'cytoma' is more of a wart type lesion then? My terrier used to get those all the time on his face for years prior to developing cancer so be careful. If the vet removes it ask them to send it to pathology to be safe. You just never know.

The lepto vaccine you had didn't cover the strain of lepto that Ridge was exposed to huh? I've heard that a few times over and over. Anything like that weakens the immune system to let anything else flourish.

How is the shnozola looking now? Pretty good?All purdy like normal?

growler~GateKeeper
February 19th, 2008, 10:52 PM
Very strange indeed!

Did you find the piece that came off from the wrestling match? If so I'd bring that into show the vet :thumbs up

hazelrunpack
February 20th, 2008, 07:40 AM
Maybe Brier's face clawed Ridge's nose :laughing:

No really I know it's NOT funny...

:laughing: I thought it was pretty funny!

So the 'cytoma' is more of a wart type lesion then? My terrier used to get those all the time on his face for years prior to developing cancer so be careful. If the vet removes it ask them to send it to pathology to be safe. You just never know.

Yeah, they're fairly common, especially in younger dogs...at least at our house :rolleyes: Very vascular, so they bleed easily. Our vets always send them out for pathology exams when they're removed, cuz you're right--you just never do know! Supposedly, cytomas resolve by themselves, but we've never been able to leave them long enough to do that. Our dogs are so active, the cytomas always get scraped and bleed, so we have them removed. :shrug:

The lepto vaccine you had didn't cover the strain of lepto that Ridge was exposed to huh? I've heard that a few times over and over. Anything like that weakens the immune system to let anything else flourish.

Actually, the vaccine did cover the strains Ridge is fighting--same for the other dogs. The problem appears to be that the new, safer vaccination peaks at 6 months, then the protection falls off. We're wrestling with the decision on whether to up their vaccination to twice a year like they do in cattle... At least the symptoms were very, very mild--probably attributable to the immunity boost from the vaccine.

Of the five strains of lepto commonly seen in our area, all of the Pack members we've run titers on have had exposure to the same subset of four. Although the symptoms were either mild or unnoticeable, all the titers more than doubled upon second test (except Ridge's, cuz we just had her done for the first time--but even hers were above the 800 level.) Because the titers were rising so rapidly, we opted for treatment.

How is the shnozola looking now? Pretty good?All purdy like normal?

It is looking so much better! She'll have some scarring, and likely the skin will always get scraped easily, but there's hair growing back over almost the entire affected area :thumbs up

Very strange indeed!

Did you find the piece that came off from the wrestling match? If so I'd bring that into show the vet :thumbs up

I wish. :frustrated: I saw it dangling when he was on his way up the deck stairs, but by the time we got to the door, it had fallen off. The second one is still there, though--quite hard, but not long enough to show the curved growth. :shrug: Now that the long piece is gone, it does look more like an irritated histiocytoma. hubby is already doing his victory dance and practicing his "I told ya so"s, but madame hazel is still holding out for the extraneous nail theory...and she has a crystal ball, y'know :laughing: Yeah, but hazel! Her crystal ball is always wrong! :o

Luba
February 20th, 2008, 01:22 PM
That's just like a bubbly hubbly :laughing:

krdahmer
February 20th, 2008, 01:24 PM
I have to say that is a little grody lookin... I hope it just falls off and you don't have to fuss with it! :goodvibes:

interested976
February 20th, 2008, 03:12 PM
My dog had that...vet put him on Meds and it eventually went away...apparently its more common in males than females...meh

Frenchy
February 20th, 2008, 07:19 PM
[COLOR="blue"][I]I wish. :frustrated: I saw it dangling when he was on his way up the deck stairs, but by the time we got to the door, it had fallen off.

What ? It fell off ? The nail on Brier's face fell off ? :confused: what the ....

hazelrunpack
February 20th, 2008, 08:48 PM
krdahmer, my wish is evidently your command, cuz the bloody things got scraped off today. :shrug: Still don't know what it is...but now you can see the base of it and it looks pretty irritated and weird, too. Frankly, we're now wondering if perhaps it's neither extraneous nails nor a histiocytoma. :eek:

But as to them falling off, Frenchy, I've read that many of the freaky nails do spontaneously fall off and the skin reverts to normal. So that may be exactly what it is. :fingerscr

We'll find out on Saturday. :thumbs up

Frenchy
February 20th, 2008, 09:42 PM
But as to them falling off, Frenchy, I've read that many of the freaky nails do spontaneously fall off and the skin reverts to normal. So that may be exactly what it is. :fingerscr



Only at your house Hazel , this could have only happen at your house !

14+kitties
February 20th, 2008, 09:52 PM
Hazel - I am crossing fingers and toes and paws and whatever else can be crossed that you will soon have at least one week free of medicines! It seems like there is always something going on around there! :grouphug: for you and lots of kisses for the pups.

hazelrunpack
February 20th, 2008, 10:04 PM
Only at your house Hazel , this could have only happen at your house !

Sigh :rolleyes: Y'know, sometimes I do wonder.... :crazy:

Hazel - I am crossing fingers and toes and paws and whatever else can be crossed that you will soon have at least one week free of medicines! It seems like there is always something going on around there! :grouphug: for you and lots of kisses for the pups.

Hey, thanks, Gerri. We're aiming for the first week in June! :laughing:

rainbow
February 21st, 2008, 01:17 AM
You just never get a break. :sad: :grouphug: Good luck on Saturday. :fingerscr :goodvibes: :goodvibes:

Luba
February 21st, 2008, 01:22 AM
Just please don't rename Brier wart hog. It's gonna be interesting what the vet says about this. I hope all goes well, my toes and fingies are crossed. I'll suggest Sadie do the same but must wait until she's done her beauty nap for the night :cloud9:

Hugs alll around

hazelrunpack
February 21st, 2008, 06:58 PM
:laughing: Wart Hog! Perfect! :dog:

Well, at least this isn't anything too serious, as far as we know. :fingerscr won't even need meds!

hazelrunpack
February 23rd, 2008, 11:44 AM
We have a diagnosis: keratoacanthoma. It's a benign tumor that involves the hair follicle and results in a horny growth that curves under...extraneous toenails. :D ("I told ya so!" he he Sorry...just practicing for hubby. :o)

Unfortunately, they do not usually resolve on their own, although they do on occasion. So it will likely have to be surgically removed. But we'll do it later toward fall unless it gets infected or overly irritated before then.

rainbow
February 23rd, 2008, 12:24 PM
Wow....two dogs with weird things involving hair follicles. :eek: I am so glad it is a benign thing. :thumbs up

And it would be really nice if you were one of the lucky few where it just went away on it's own :fingerscr .....cuz it's time you got a break. :yell:

What did the vet say about Ridge? :fingerscr :goodvibes:

Oh, and I'm really glad that you get to say "I told ya so" to hubby. http://bestsmileys.com/dancing/14.gif

Frenchy
February 23rd, 2008, 04:19 PM
Unfortunately, they do not usually resolve on their own, although they do on occasion.

Let's hope :pray: he won't need surgery ! :fingerscr

Soooo , is hubby cooking for you tonight ? :D

hazelrunpack
February 23rd, 2008, 08:40 PM
Ridge came home with another 2 weeks of clavamox. She has to get checked again when we get close to the end of the two weeks. She's improving, but there is still some residual infection that has to resolve before we can do the protocol for the leptospirosis. It's a slow process, but we're getting there! :fingerscr

hubby didn't cook for me this evening, but we got madame hazel to do it. She's a better cook than either of us are. :p

growler~GateKeeper
February 23rd, 2008, 11:49 PM
Unfortunately, they do not usually resolve on their own, although they do on occasion. So it will likely have to be surgically removed. But we'll do it later toward fall unless it gets infected or overly irritated before then.

Be sure to do a regular face check after wrestling & pack games outside especially in the summer to make sure he doesn't get scraped/bit there cuz that could result in an infection - though I'm sure you already know that :o

:fingerscr it does go away on its own & soon :goodvibes:

More :goodvibes: for Ridge too

hazelrunpack
February 24th, 2008, 07:26 PM
Actually, we were just discussing timing this afternoon :thumbs up--probably we'll opt to have it taken off once it gets a little warmer. It already gets irritated--remember the first set of 'nails' got scraped off during play--and the chance of infection is just too great.

We also have to remember to check him over periodically for new growths--evidently once they've grown one set of extra toenails, they often end up growing more :shrug:

Ridge managed to scrape her poor nose running into a door this morning in her eagerness to get to breakfast. :rolleyes: The scars are very tender and soft and evidently are going to damage easily. But so far there's no indication that the scrape this morning is going to lead to a flare-up of the infection there. :fingerscr

breeze
February 24th, 2008, 09:24 PM
poor Brier and poor Ridge..

I hope they fell better soon and you and the doggies can get back to normal

lots of :grouphug::grouphug: and good :goodvibes::goodvibes: that things start improving for you and them..

hazelrunpack
February 24th, 2008, 09:29 PM
Thanks, breeze.

Brier actually doesn't seem too bothered by the fact that his alter ego is trying to emerge from his cheek. :D If it weren't for the chance of infection, we'd likely let it be. :shrug:

breeze
February 24th, 2008, 09:33 PM
I think you should put a big sign on your door

NO INFECTIONS ARE ALOUD TO ENTER THESE PREMISSISES INSIDE OR OUTSIDE NO EXCEPTIONS


:D

hazelrunpack
February 24th, 2008, 09:44 PM
We hang garlic around the windows, too! :laughing:

breeze
February 24th, 2008, 09:46 PM
We hang garlic around the windows, too! :laughing:


:laughing::laughing::laughing::D

hazelrunpack
April 24th, 2008, 11:42 PM
Just an update for anyone looking for information on keratoacanthomas...

Over the past few weeks, I've been checking for 'nails' about once a week. Shortly after the nails fell off, the affected area was raw-looking, red, hard to the touch and about 5 mm across. Over the weeks, it's subsided, getting paler and shrinking in size. This week when I checked for it, I was unable to find it. :thumbs up

Two possibilities come to mind: 1. the affected hair follicle has just gone dormant (which they do periodically) and when it comes out of dormancy, the 'nails' will regrow; or 2. the mysterious and oh-so-talented body is fixing the genetic mutation that resulted in the 'nails' in the first place, and they won't reappear.

Of course, we're rooting for the 2nd possibility! :laughing:

meg4050
April 25th, 2008, 12:25 AM
yay Brier! :fingerscr It's the second possibility!:goodvibes:

growler~GateKeeper
April 25th, 2008, 12:30 AM
:fingerscr :goodvibes: for no more extra toenails for Brier :goodvibes: :fingerscr

rainbow
April 25th, 2008, 11:01 PM
:pray: :fingerscr :fingerscr :goodvibes: for the second scenerio. :grouphug: