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Neutering at what age?

GSDog
February 18th, 2008, 07:13 PM
Some people told me that if i get my dog neutered at 5months it will stop him from growing and then you have others saying it has nothing to do with it. To be honest with you, i never heard of that and the dogs that i know that got neutered grew to be the size that the breed should be. So I am just curious if any of you guys their dogs stopped growing. My dog is a german shepherd only 4 months old and alread weights 65lbs. He will be a big GSD. :pawprint:

coppperbelle
February 18th, 2008, 07:21 PM
My Hunter was neutered at 6 months old. He continued to grow and is now a beautiful 75 pound, big headed, big boned golden.

clm
February 18th, 2008, 07:25 PM
I prefer to neuter my male dogs after they're 1 year old, just because I want them to develop fully before hand. If they were showing excess aggression, sexual or otherwise I would neuter earlier than that.
It's more expensive to wait as long as I do as the cost for the anesthesia is based on weight as well as any other meds required.

Cindy

the gang
February 18th, 2008, 08:58 PM
i do them at 6 months brenda and the pins, it makes it better for no--- marking :pawprint:

Longblades
February 19th, 2008, 12:53 PM
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=49573

If you read the thread at the link above, which is on this same forum, you will see that not only does neutering before puberty NOT stop growth, there is much evidence to suggest that growth is prolonged beyond what is usual for whatever breed it is, especially in the legs, and can lead to orthopaedic problems in later life. As well as a host of other health problems.

Here is a link directly to the paper on Long Term Health Risks/Benefits of Spay/Neuter in Dogs:

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongT...uterInDogs.pdf

SnowDancer
February 19th, 2008, 04:32 PM
My Eskimo was neutered at 7 months. One of his vets was very familiar with the breed and told me when it should be done when he was about 4 months old - after all, there had to be "something" to neuter. 7 months in he went. He was expected to weigh about 22 lbs. at full growth (normal weight) and 22 lbs. is what he weighs (since he lost the extra weight he gained thanks to too many snacks from Daddy). I was happy to have him neutered as one too many female dogs were trying to have their way with him on the street - usually big dogs who had not been spayed - and their owners kept insisting that since their dogs were much bigger than mine, their pups wouldn't get pregnant. Right - their dogs were seriously crouched over my guy. The puppies of course wouldn't have been my problem - until they ended up in a basket on my front steps. I would have it done.

GSDog
February 19th, 2008, 04:52 PM
thank you for the other thread where you talk about neutering but just in case this is what i posted in the other thread:

Ok after reading all of the link and your threads i still feel i have to have him neutered...maybe i will wait a bit longer...its basically for him to run free and play with others without attacking them...yes he's still young but not for long...also i dont believe we need more dogs out there and the shelters are stuck with them all cause of people that doent really care what their dogs do or thinks they can make money and get stuck with puppies and or ends up in a shelter or give them away to others that cant really take care of the pups...if you neutered them you stop that trail right on the spot...a dog is a dog and a dog over 100lbs you cant control that like you want if they smell a female from far....its in their nature...they are just being dogs...

I will have him neutered but like i said instead at 5months old i will wait maybe like 8months...will see...

thank guys:thumbs up

Longblades
February 19th, 2008, 06:25 PM
Just thought you would like to know, I am in the same position as you. My Lab puppy's father is 85 lbs. and I too have concerns about managing a big, randy male dog. I haven't decided yet but will be very interested to see what my Vet says.

I have received much feedback from another doggy group I may get involved with who say socialization is the key to handling an intact male. But they all have more than one dog and it is easier for them to socialize. I have to go out and find dogs for mine to meet.

Rottielover
February 19th, 2008, 06:31 PM
I will be the one here and go on a limb....Harley was neutered at 14 months, talking to many breeders of this breed I still did it early.
I have found that neutered dogs get attacked just as much, if not more than intact. Has nothing to do with balls or no balls, it has everything to do with control. And body posture, and hierarchy in a pack. Neutered animals can be just as dominant.
I have found the only thing neutering has solved behaviour wise is no more marking in the house, and no chances of a pregnancy...
JMO

BigRover
February 19th, 2008, 08:39 PM
Good advice so far. I'm glad to see some educated opinions on the topic as opposed to people regurgitating what they have been told by other uneducated people.

The "in thing" right now seems to be to neuter dogs at around the 6 months mark as a general rule. Essentially the age when most dogs begin to sexually mature.

To a degree, it makes sense and I see the logic behind this. Unfortunetly what I see has began to happen is people are becoming diseducated about the issue thinking that all dogs must be neutered at 6 months or else all of a sudden their perfectly behaved puppy will become some aggressive monster they can't manage. If that dog starts to misbehave, every thing is blamed and excused with "oh he just has to get neutered" instead of taking things on face value which is the owners becoming laxed with the dog's training requirements. Sorry, I'm venting here :) It just ticks me off when people are under the impression that all their problems will be solved with neutering.

Neutered or intact, your dog's behaviour is still your responsibility.

Longblades, it's not a case of continual growth in males neutered early that is a concearn, it is the quality of that growth. Studies have shown that dogs neutered early (I believe the cut off mark was about 1yr old, and longer the larger the dog is) develop skeletons that are thinner and longer. The presence of hormones in intact males dictates the bones to stop growing length wise at a much earlier age. The result is that dogs neutered earlier have a tendency to look much more wonkier and less bulky. They become stretched out puppies instead of fully grown adult males. I don't remember the actual number but it was ridiculously high, something like a 30% risk increase in skeletal problems (ie hip displasia) was shown to be present later in life of dogs neutered before 1yr old. Again, the larger the breed, the more obvious this effect was.

Not exactly dog related, however if you look at some of the case studies of the removal of male hormones in early adolescent development in human males, you will see very similar resaults. The persons in questions, often were described as very frail and of shortened life expectancy. Hormones play such an important role in all aspects of our (and all other animals) health, you have to be very naive to think that taking them away at such an important point of development has no ill effect on the subject's body.

It is also very fascinating when you get into the behavioural aspects of the affects of early neutering. Majority of intact males are not aggressive and often the opposite is true. I remember some of the studies noting that dogs altered at a younger age became mentally underdeveloped and showed many puppy like qualities through their adult life. The intact dogs by comparison were calmer, less nervous, and more stable mentally. Obiously you can't make broad generalizations and you have to account for a number of factors when considering such results. In regards to the issues of dominance, most often it is the intact male that is attacked by neutered dominant males. I've seen it happen over and over again. I am yet to see it happen the other way around. Intact males can be annoying with the humping and marking, but this is a behavioural isse that most of the time can easily be fixed with training. Females were actually found to be better pets when left intact because of all the natural nurturing hormones, although again dominant females being an exception.

The key factor for aggression in both sexes is dominance. Dominance is something your dog is blessed with since birth and develops over time. It is for most part genetic. It transgresses the fact if your dog is fixed or intact, male or female. An extremely dominant puppy will at very least become a very dominant adult dog after being neutered. While neutering might take a bit of the edge off, ultimately it is up to the owner to train and possibly restrain a dominant dog properly so that it behaves in an acceptable manner.

I am certainly not advocating every one stop sterilizing their dogs! Majority of people are far better off with an altered dog as a pet. The obvious issue of pet over population is also probably the bigest reason for pushing for steralization of pets. There are people who are fully capable of keeping an unaltered pet, just maybe not too many of them.

GSDog
February 19th, 2008, 09:13 PM
Very well said BigRover. What you said is so true. About 20ish years ago I use to have 2 dobermans and ended up keeping one. He was never neutered and I never whatsoever had any problems with him. He did what I said to a T...the perfect dog. THis little GSD I have is only 4 1/2months old and already weighs 65lbs. He is extremely dominate. He was only 1 1/2month old and my brother also had a GSD but 2 months older and even at 6weeks old my dog was like the boss. When I go to the park he shows whols boss. But he's and extremely good puppy. He already knows all his commands with or without the lease. Walks with you without pulling, sits at every corner streets till i say ok to cross etc etc.. I want to get him neutered cause there are way too many dogs in that park. But to be honest with you im not 100% convinced yet. This dog will go over 100lbs but like you say, its how you train them and how much they listen to you. And thats my :2cents: imput :pawprint:

Rottielover
February 19th, 2008, 09:16 PM
:highfive::highfive::highfive::highfive: Really good post Big rover. The times Harley was attacked was when he was not neutered, you are right.
But GSdog, I do not recommend dog parks, see other thread

GSDog
February 19th, 2008, 09:25 PM
what do you mean you dont recommend dog parks and see other threads? a bit lost here sorry...no parks if i dont get the dog neutered?

satchelp
February 19th, 2008, 09:30 PM
I agree with a lot of what was said above. One of my males is almost 2 and is intact and he is actually the easiest dog to live with of all of my dogs. As well, some of his best friends are other intact males of the same breed (people tend to keep this breed intact because of the small gene pool on this continent). I think it is all about the vibes the dogs gives off. A really dominant dog is going to have issues no matter if he's neutered or not.

Rottielover
February 20th, 2008, 05:39 AM
Think of dog parks from a dogs perspective.. Everytime they go there is a new pack, heirachy has to be made, then oops another dog joins. It takes a split second of not watching the dog, and you have a full blown dog fight.
If you have never witnessed a real dog fight you are lucky, let me tell you it is friggin scary, and not worth the risk of having a dog aggressive dog afterwards.
There are other ways to exercise you dog. If you have a GSD, work him, make him use his mind..

clm
February 20th, 2008, 06:33 AM
The 3 breeders I got my pups from over the years all recommended getting them neutered after 1 year of age. Don't get the same recommendation for females though, I wonder why? Maybe the females don't have the same issues with not developing the softer characteristics after spaying?

Cindy

Kashi
February 20th, 2008, 06:39 AM
I'm starting to have a love-hate relationship with this site ! You guys are all challenging all the things I THOUGHT I knew about my pets - regarding altering, feeding, training.

You're confusing the bejiggers out of me. Thank you !

Longblades
February 20th, 2008, 08:33 AM
This is great. Provoking thought and discussion was my intent. To echo Rottielover, I too found that neutered dogs, particularly males, seemed to confuse my intact male. In my dog's case he became inappropriately amorous with them but others I have spoken to had males who attacked neutered males. Sometimes the spayed females were treated with aggression too.

Purpledomino
February 20th, 2008, 08:58 AM
It is my belief that neutering before sexual maturity for the majority of dogs is valid and beneficial despite the opposing view to wait. I think the pros far outweigh the cons IMO..... and to avoid testosterone driven bad behaviours such as marking, roaming, and the possibility of aggression (despite training) the decision is an easy one for me.

I have always neutered at around 6 months of age, and never had any orthopaedic issues in my dogs...mostly large/giant breeds, which have grown normally as far as I can tell. I do agree to a point that proper training of an intact male is important, but in a social situation I would be wary and avoid dog parks altogether with an unaltered dog. I simply would not trust my "training" against the testosterone driven instincts of an animal....thus depriving my dog of valuable socialization skills.

I suppose that I just cannot see any benefit to the dog or myself by waiting past sexual maturity to neuter, and the pros far outweigh any risks for a companion animal. :shrug:

clm
February 20th, 2008, 10:10 AM
Having 2 of them to do this time around, I would have prefered to do them sooner rather than later, but this time of year, keeping them physically quiet for a few days afterwards is almost impossible. I need the heat of summer to help me with that.

Cindy

bendyfoot
February 20th, 2008, 10:24 AM
Do the benefits cited earlier have any relevance for female dogs?

mona_b
February 20th, 2008, 10:56 AM
Well my GSD's were done at 6 months.This was stated on my contract from my breeder.None of mine have ever had any health or orthoptic issues.And my current GSD is 11.The only issue with him is some arthritis.But that's a given with his age.

And I'll be honest when I say that my guys looked no different in body or looks compaired to the ones done later.My guys actually turned out to be just as gorgeous as their Sires and pedigrees.


Unfortunately this is one of the breeds that is overbred.And it breaks my heart as I have been raised with this breed and have owned 3 in 24 years.

GSDog,6 weeks is pretty young for him to be taken away.Also,at 5 months he should only weigh around 35lbs.:)

Kristin7
February 20th, 2008, 11:02 AM
This is interesting stuff... but what does one do when they want to rescue a dog from a shelter? I have adopted two dogs from shelters and they always spay or neuter them before I can take them home, they even do this with very young puppies (OK, I don't blame them at ALL, given what they deal with regarding pet overpopulation). Makes me wonder if the early spay/neuter contributed to the incontinence of my girl and recent uti in my boy, who seems, um, very underdeveloped 'down there'. Maybe spay/neuter at 6 months is ok, but what about the trend to do it much earlier, like 3-4 months old? I'm not going to not get another dog at a shelter because of this though, it just makes me worry about future health problems.

Maybe intact males get attacked more because the neutered dogs feel threatened by them.

Longblades
February 20th, 2008, 11:07 AM
If you read the link I provided you will see that the health risks of spaying females are even more frightening than they are for neutering males. In my limited experience the behavioural changes in females are less pronounced.

You really have to read the paper and make up your own mind. I think viewpoints presented here are very good but you will have a hard time evaluating their relevance to your own particular situation if you don't do the background reading yourself. Don't forget, it presents the benefits as well as the risks, health wise.

oops, meant for Bendyfoot.

Purpledomino
February 20th, 2008, 12:26 PM
Obesity
Owing to changes in metabolism, spay/neuter dogs are more likely to be overweight or obese than intact
dogs. One study found a two fold increased risk of obesity in spayed females compared to intact females30.
Another study found that spay/neuter dogs were 1.6 (females) or 3.0 (males) times more likely to be obese
than intact dogs, and 1.2 (females) or 1.5 (males) times more likely to be overweight than intact dogs31.
A survey study of veterinary practices in the UK found that 21% of dogs were obese.30
Being obese and/or overweight is associated with a host of health problems in dogs. Overweight dogs are
more likely to be diagnosed with hyperadrenocorticism, ruptured cruciate ligament, hypothyroidism, lower
urinary tract disease, and oral disease32. Obese dogs are more likely to be diagnosed with hypothyroidism,
diabetes mellitus, pancreatitis, ruptured cruciate ligament, and neoplasia (tumors)32.



Mentioning alone that intact dogs are more likely to be overweight or obese makes me question this report. There are many more factors involved other than just altering these animals that contribute to any increase in weight. Perhaps a decreased activity level as a byproduct of lessened sex drive is the culprit, rather than just the physical result of neutering/spaying.

Overfed and under-exercised dogs IMO are the causes of overweight dogs, as each individual animal should be fed according to activity level etc...regardless of it being altered or not. I just don't buy that you have a better chance of a fat dog if you neuter or spay it. :shrug:

clm
February 20th, 2008, 12:48 PM
This is interesting stuff... but what does one do when they want to rescue a dog from a shelter? I have adopted two dogs from shelters and they always spay or neuter them before I can take them home, they even do this with very young puppies (OK, I don't blame them at ALL, given what they deal with regarding pet overpopulation). Makes me wonder if the early spay/neuter contributed to the incontinence of my girl and recent uti in my boy, who seems, um, very underdeveloped 'down there'. Maybe spay/neuter at 6 months is ok, but what about the trend to do it much earlier, like 3-4 months old? I'm not going to not get another dog at a shelter because of this though, it just makes me worry about future health problems.

Maybe intact males get attacked more because the neutered dogs feel threatened by them.


My 2 sister cats were already spayed when I got them from a rescue group at 8 weeks of age. I certainly wouldn't risk doing a kitten that young. My vet wasn't thrilled about it either, while we both totally understand why they do it I prefer a female kitten to be 4 months minimum, before the first heat but not still a tiny kitten either.

Cindy

satchelp
February 20th, 2008, 12:59 PM
Well, it's not the report that you should question, but the individual studies that are referenced. All the author of this report did was pull together the various studies out there and do an analysis. I think it is actually presented in quite an objective way.

As far as weight gain due to metabolism changes, I think there are a lot of studies out there indicating that. I have seen this in one of my dogs who was spayed at 2 years old, and have seen it in friends' dogs that were spayed or neutered after they were adults. In the case of my dog, without an increase in food consumption, there was a weight gain of about 8 lbs over about a year after the spay. In fact, her exercise levels increased around the same time, so the only explanation for this seems to be the spaying. A friend of mine had their dog neutered at 6 and he blew up alarmingly to the point where she had him undergo extensive medical testing for metabolic disorders. In the end, the explanation from the vets was that his metabolism simply changed due to the neutering. She had to cut his food to less than 1/2 of what he had been on and severely limit treats and increase exercise. This is a dog that was already going on at least one long trail walk a day as well as a couple of on-leash walks. On the other hand, I have a male that was neutered at 10 months, and he is now almost 11 years old. I have trouble keeping weight on him. Not all dogs will gain weight, but it seems that a lot do, and, again, the studies appear to support that.

GSDog
February 20th, 2008, 09:06 PM
GSDog,6 weeks is pretty young for him to be taken away.Also,at 5 months he should only weigh around 35lbs?????

Mona, i dont know of any large dog bread at 5months to weigh 35lbs...
my GSD is 4 1/2 months old and weighs 65lbs...my brother's GSD is 6months old and he weighs 70lbs...i use to have dobermans and at 5months old they were 50lbs...now these were all males...:dog:

mona_b
February 21st, 2008, 10:57 AM
GSDog,6 weeks is pretty young for him to be taken away.Also,at 5 months he should only weigh around 35lbs?????

Mona, i dont know of any large dog bread at 5months to weigh 35lbs...
my GSD is 4 1/2 months old and weighs 65lbs...my brother's GSD is 6months old and he weighs 70lbs...i use to have dobermans and at 5months old they were 50lbs...now these were all males...:dog:


Just got a couple of emails and calls back from a few "ethical" breeders I know.

This said by all.At 5 months males should be 45lbs and females 40lbs at this age.I was off 10lbs,shoot me.LOL...

Like I said,this breed is being overbred and people are trying to make them bigger and heavier then the standard.The heavier they get,the more health issues arise.Arthritis and HD at an early age.

GSDog
February 21st, 2008, 04:21 PM
naaaaa i wouldnt shoot you...LOL...

this one is 20ish pounds more...anyhow, his dad is from Germany which is a smaller breed and the mother is normal GSD not kingsize either...the guy that raised them does not have a kennel or something like that...he has his male and 3 females...he is a trainer but works on his farm and breeding GSD is something he wants to do but not as a full time job. He trains GSD for RCMP and Cops etc etc...his male or my dog's dad is a K9 rescue and search GS..he was the one that RCMP and others used to search for the little girl that disappear Cederika here in Quebec. So I know my dog didnt come from this new type of breeders that's wants to have oversize breeds..Americans are good for that but in Europe its not that big yet to do oversize dogs...hope europe keeps it like that...

Sorry if you took it the wrong way Mona i didnt mean it like that..:sorry:

:)

BigRover
February 22nd, 2008, 03:14 AM
what do you mean you dont recommend dog parks and see other threads? a bit lost here sorry...no parks if i dont get the dog neutered?

Rottielover makes a good point. Dog parks are over rated. Too many people think they have to take their dog to a dog park or else they're being bad 'dog parents'. Yes, you should socialize your dog with other dogs, but dog parks CAN be horrible places to do that. Why? I wouldn't necessarily say it's the dogs, I think it's the incompetent 2 legged creatures completely unfamilliar about dog behaviour that cause the problems.

Dog parks can be great, and if you have strict on leash laws where you live, they might be the only places you can legally exercise you dog off leash. That being said, I would be very careful bringing my dog to an off leash park. I'm very experienced with dog behaviour and have spend too much time with dog packs in dog parks. If you take your dog to a dog park, I think you need to be very aware of dog body language so that you can recognize any signs of trouble and get your dog out of there before any thing even begins to go wrong. I can usually size up the pack dynamic from a good few hundred feet away and if anything in my gut thinks meeeh I dunno about that one, I circle the pack and keep away untill what I determine to be the problem dog leaves. Some times dogs might be getting along great for some time untill problems start becoming apparant, in which case, again, I leave.

Even when I do stay in a dog park, I don't like to stand and chat, something most people do. That stagnant dynamic is what most often causes problems. Dogs get along much easier when you keep moving. It might sound really stupid, but even if you just walk in a large enough circle and do figure 8s through the area you are minimizing any potential problems.

You can also bring a ball and play fetch with your dog using the time to practice your dog's focus on you and your interaction through obedience commands integrated into the play. However, you then run the risk that some one else's dog might be ball-aggressive. Who know.. even your dog might be! There's always a first time for every thing.

I think you should socialize your dog with other dogs, but you should also always be your dog's main attraction. Too many people let their dogs be too dog friendly and ultimately loose that important bond. Then they wonder why their dogs never listen to them and go nuts every time they see another dog. It's an easy trap to fall into because dogs love each other so much and they do such a great job of exercising each other. It's the same principal why it is never recommended to raise two llitter mates or young puppies at the same time. That dog to dog bonding instinct unfortunetly trumps our love, as sad as it is to admit. :(

mona_b
February 22nd, 2008, 10:01 AM
Thanks.lol

Europe is very stricked with their breed standard.And they do produce sound dogs.

The breeders that I'm talking about are the BYB's.They are the ones trying to make the breed bigger.And that happens everywhere.Even here in Canada.

My dogs Sires were German imports.My current is actually a retired Police Dog.

Just curious as to what titles this breeder has on his dogs.And as I stated,6 weeks was too young to be taken away from mommy.Mine came to me at 12 weeks....:)

Also like I have said,he gets to big to fast you will have issues.You don't want that.Also,my guys were switched to adult at 6 months.But that's another topic.lol


As for weight gain after being s/n.None of mine gained any weight.My sister has 3 Huskies and a BC.The BC and the Husky were done at 6 months.The other 2 huskies were done at one year.No weight gain there.And they are 10 and 11.Heck I'm spayed and I haven't gained weight......:D

As for kittens.Well I adopted mine at 8 weeks from the SPCA.Winnie will be 4 and Casper is 4 1/2..And I have had no issues with their health because of the pediatric s/n..And no weight gain.Remember,pediatric s/n has been done since the 1980's.Also,I am so happy that the spca does their animals before they leave.Many place don't.And many adopting won't bother to get them fixed.My guys are chipped and licenced for life.Hmmmmm does the humane society do that?I think not.

As for dog parks,never took my guys.Mine were always socialized with the dogs/pups I knew.Everyone would take turns going to friends houses.I'm not saying they never met new dogs,they did.But they started off with the ones I knew.....:)

GSDog
February 22nd, 2008, 08:13 PM
Well I have to agree with what you said BigRover. The dog park where I go I am very lucky to have a park with older owners with all calm dogs. Most are big breeds and when I go with my GS seems they know not to be rough with him but my GS goes after them all just to play. All he wants is to play. There is another dog park not that far which all of these owners went and never went back. They all said the same thing that it was mostly young people with pitt bulls or rotts and they just dont care when they get aggressive and dont bother. So when they told me that I would never go there. Too bad, like you said very often its the 2 legged ones that needs to be trained.

So where I go they are cool dogs... Just 2 that barks non stop that I have to tell them to stop. The owners says they dont bark at all at home but just in the park. Thank god for them. lol

Right now my problem is that i know nothing will happen yet cause my dog is still young but tends to climb behind other dogs and i have to get infont of him saying Major Down and he gets down. At least he listens ! :thumbs up

But one day it might not work. The dogs in that park are all neutered till one day Major meets his match or one thats not neutered. I dont go everyday. 1-2 a week or less. I walk him very often. Out usually for a few hours.

But for his growing up, i cant prevent him from that...hes like getting bigger each week. Eventually he will stop. Ok HOPEFULLY HA! Im sure in a few months he will grow in a slower pace.:pray: lol or i will end up with a 200lbs GSD

Longblades
February 22nd, 2008, 09:26 PM
But for his growing up, i cant prevent him from that

Maybe. Are you feeding him puppy food? You might want to check the content. I think large breed puppy food is not as bad as it used to be. Too fast growth has been attributed to a host of problems in later life, the main one I think, being HD. If the puppy food is too high in protein and calcium you could feed him adult food instead and probably slow that rapid growth. Most large breed puppy foods now tout controlled growth instead of the claims of extra growth formula they spouted a few years ago so maybe your boy is just exceptionally big.

My 4 month old Lab puppy is also considered to be a large breed. He is on adult food as per the breeder. Several other Lab breeders we checked out also said to feed adult food. Puppy-boy was 26 lbs. a few days ago and that is right on target for his age. He is lean with ribs easily felt and visible when he turns sideways, again, as per the breeder. His pop is 85 lbs. Puppy-boy should not attain his adult weight till about 18 months.

Not saying your boy should be the same, he is a different breed. But you might want to query your Vet and breeder about too rapid growth.

mona_b
February 22nd, 2008, 11:48 PM
Exactly Longblades.

My guys were put on adult at 6 months as per my breeder.My boy is 11 so this is going back a while.I know of a few GSD breeders who actually feed the pups adult when they are weaned from mommy.

With this breed you don't want them to grow fast.And as I have stated before,health issues will arise.Early arthritis and HD.Please be careful.

And for the breeders that I know and have contacted,they all agree that 65lbs is to heavy.These breeders title their dogs and are avid in the Seiger shows in Germany.I'm actually trying to talk them into joining here.:)

Here is a growth chart for GSDs.

http://www.mygermanshepherdpuppy.com/

satchelp
February 26th, 2008, 09:00 AM
Here is a very recent article/study published by the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) on the subject of whether to spay/neuter dogs and cats.
The article is from December 2007 and it certainly offers up some food for thought.

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/pdfplus/10.2460/javma.231.11.1665

Esaunders
February 27th, 2008, 10:40 AM
This article is a FANTASTIC balanced look at the pros & cons of spaying/neutering in terms of the long term effects.

Rottielover
February 27th, 2008, 11:11 AM
esaunders amazing article and thank you

Esaunders
February 27th, 2008, 11:36 AM
I understand the concern on the board that this kind of article will encourage people not to spay and neuter thereby contributing to the pet over population problem.

I look at it this way. The people who are interested in this type of technical article are usually pretty savvy thoughtful dog people. Therefore, whether they spay/neuter or not they are the people most likely to manage the dog properly depending on their choice.

Its a tough decision. Its one that I re-evaluate constantly. For example, let's take my english setter Amos who has been neutered:

He was neutered at about 10 months to let his joints develop, he was neutered at that point due to starting to act like an arrogant teenagers and starting trouble in the dog park. His joints weren't completely finished but he was definitely well into puberty so very little growth occured after that point.

He would have been neutered regardless due to being chryptorchid (significant cancer risk)

Had he not been chryptorchid, I would likely have reconsidered neutering him and dealt with the behaviour issues through training due to the 3x increase in risk of thyroid issues. English Setters are the #1 breed for thyroid problems with 50-50 odds as per OFA and MSU. So, tripling the risk is a matter of concern for me.

For my dog, the cancer concern outweighed the thyroid concern. Someone else might have weighed it out differently.

It certainly has made me look at the idea of vasectomizing future male to maintain the protective effects of the hormones while maintaining pet population control. I'd still spay a female due to pyometra and mammary cancer concerns. It would still depend on the dog, the breed and bloodline history (if known) though.

I think I think about these things too much
Erica

GSDog
February 27th, 2008, 04:33 PM
He's very dominated..We went to the park on Monday night and its always the same dogs and they are all good dogs with good owners..thank god...my dog is the youngest and the others are all a year or more than mine. He was playing with one of them and his tooth was caught in the other dog's scarf..Now my dog kept yelling and whinning cause the other dog was pulling one way and it was hurting my dog. So i pull both dogs apart with the owner and for no reason the other owner's dog got like mad and growl and jumped on my dog. Guess what my dog did, yes got pissed off turned around and jump the other dog to bit his leg. Like revenge. And its not the first time ive notice little bugger does that. Thats why Im thinking of getting him neutered to bring his ego down a notch...Like I know this dog will be like the boss of this park soon and no way will i allow a bad temper cause he wants to win. So far in training hes a fantastic dog and listens really well for his age. Its amazing what he does with or without the leash. LIke he knows where hes going in life...:dog: The person that sold me the dog raises only GS for K9 his male or my dogs dad is a Search and Rescue Dog and well known in Qc. And that owner said if i get him neutered it takes about from 10-20% of his personality alway. And for his ego the GS are born with a proud dog which i have to get use to...

babykitten
February 29th, 2008, 11:09 PM
6 months -1 year period in my option is the best

babykitten
February 29th, 2008, 11:19 PM
neutering (castration)
when neutering a dog or cat before puberty his sexual urges do not develop when done at the 6months . neutering and spraying does not affect the development and growth of the cat or dog .

Esaunders
March 1st, 2008, 12:09 PM
neutering (castration)
when neutering a dog or cat before puberty his sexual urges do not develop when done at the 6months . neutering and spraying does not affect the development and growth of the cat or dog .

BabyKitten, this has been proven NOT to be the case. It has been recognized across species that sex-hormones are responsible for triggering closure of the joint plates as well as other resulting physical changes including coat and skeletal results such as less bone thickness.

This is why...
capons are bigger than roosters
oxen are bigger than bulls
geldings are taller than stallions
the castrati opera singers in the renaissance were taller, had thinner bones, higher voices and hair texture more like a woman than other men of their time

Please reference the article posted earlier. The statistics are quite clear. I'm not saying that the procedures are wrong, simply that the choice needs to be considered in depth if the choice is presented.

Akira
March 9th, 2008, 04:28 PM
Im happy this has become a highly discussed topic as it needs to be, and everyone needs to be educated more and more on the topic..

Very strong supportive opinions in this thread, I acted on impulse and posted my long explanitive 2 cents in the other post, which youll probably see bumped back up to the top in the forum.

:lightbulb:

I strongly think this topic, and the informative links should be posted in a sticky so that everyone including guests that stop by or are frequent users of the site can see this information, and take everyones words into consideration. This is knowledge that is out there but not readily available, so I feel we should make it available, not getting lost in the history archives of this forum.

:2cents: