Pets.ca - Pet forum for dogs cats and humans 

-->

Jaguar Escapes, Attacks Dog, Both Are Shot By Police

Writing4Fun
February 14th, 2008, 09:05 AM
http://www.achannel.ca/home/news_53628.aspx

This is insane. I've seen things like this on Animal Planet's "Animal Cops", but I had no idea this place existed so close to my home.

Who the :censored: would ever think it's a good idea to take large predators, some from equatorial/tropical regions, and house them in tiny outdoor chain link cages ... in Canada in the middle of winter no less!!?? :wall: :yell:

The owner thinks that the black jaguar was agitated by a fox that was trying to steal its food, so it broke through the cage. Well, d'uh!! :frustrated: You're keeping wild animals in chain link cages in the middle of nowhere, and you don't think that the meat you're feeding them might attract some of the local wildlife? And on top of that, you think that a chain link fence is going to keep these powerful creatures contained?? And you let your family pet walk around these cages at will??!! :mad:

The poor, poor dog. I can't imaging what it went through, being caught and mauled by this cat. And the poor, poor cat! It certainly didn't ask for this life!! I hope someone brings down some seriously heavy new laws to prohibit this kind of thing. :mad: The owner's answer? He's thinking about getting a tranquilizer gun, in case something like this ever happens again. :frustrated: :yell:

Renay
February 14th, 2008, 09:16 AM
What ticks me off about this whole situation is that there are people who keep big cats who know what they are doing and then there are morons like this. If this guy was able to get his permits to own this cat then it is obviously far too easy to attain them. And getting a tranquilizer gun is going to help a hell of a lot.... what a moron :wall: and in ontario none the less.. its FREEZING.. A jaguar does not belong anywhere with snow... What runs through these peoples heads is beyond me.

Chris21711
February 14th, 2008, 09:39 AM
You do not need a permit, it is governed by local townships whether they have an exotics bylaw or not. The OSPCA has been trying for years to get the government to give them some kind of concrete powers. All this government and its predecessors do is drag their butt.:yuck:

Renay
February 14th, 2008, 09:54 AM
You do not need a permit, it is governed by local townships whether they have an exotics bylaw or not. The OSPCA has been trying for years to get the government to give them some kind of concrete powers. All this government and its predecessors do is drag their butt.:yuck:

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
This bylaw is as ignorant as the man who owns these cats. How can you justify keeping a jaguar contained in a chain link fence. I don't even trust my dog in a chain link fence! This is an accident waiting to happen and it is going to take someone getting killed before anything is done about it. Some people make me sick.

Degree
February 14th, 2008, 02:44 PM
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
This bylaw is as ignorant as the man who owns these cats. How can you justify keeping a jaguar contained in a chain link fence. I don't even trust my dog in a chain link fence! This is an accident waiting to happen and it is going to take someone getting killed before anything is done about it. Some people make me sick.

Ok, this is to you and everyone else who has posted negitave things on this forum. I would first like to say none of you know anything about this. Nanda Guha loves these animals and is trying to give them a life. For your information, the jaguar " bino " escaped from his cage because a fox stole his chicken, trust me you do not want to steal any of their food. Another thing the jaguar did not leave nanda's property, the dog it attacked was nanda's dog. I do agree that keeping animals in cages isnt right, but this is no differnt from any zoo. It is unfair for you to call nanda stupid, or act as if he didnt know what he is doing. Nanda did not have toys or action figures as a kid, he had lions and tigers, he slept with the wild animals from his home country in the forest. If anyone knows these animals its him, I have saw it first hand. It is a very sad situation and I hate to know that bino has died, along with his dog blue, it is very sad, but all of you need to seriously stop hating and acting as if nanda did something wrong. He has given all the animals a life, if it wasnt for him they would have killed all of these animals, i forget the name of the company who does it but they would have killed them all, nanda gave them a second chance at life. Sure it would be nice for them to be in the wild, but it was either that or death, and by all means they have a good life, I have sat outside play fighting with the lion mogly for hours at a time, was very fun for me and the lion, they are happy animals, for you to act like they are depressed with such misrable life is bull ****, you dont know. Sure they would be happier in the wild but that just isnt possible for them! atleast they have some sort of life rather then none. So please to all of you DO NOT POST unless you know all these animals and nanda first hand in real life, none of you seem to know anything.

Renay
February 14th, 2008, 02:57 PM
Ok, this is to you and everyone else who has posted negitave things on this forum. I would first like to say none of you know anything about this. Nanda Guha loves these animals and is trying to give them a life. For your information, the jaguar " bino " escaped from his cage because a fox stole his chicken, trust me you do not want to steal any of their food. Another thing the jaguar did not leave nanda's property, the dog it attacked was nanda's dog. I do agree that keeping animals in cages isnt right, but this is no differnt from any zoo. It is unfair for you to call nanda stupid, or act as if he didnt know what he is doing. Nanda did not have toys or action figures as a kid, he had lions and tigers, he slept with the wild animals from his home country in the forest. If anyone knows these animals its him, I have saw it first hand. It is a very sad situation and I hate to know that bino has died, along with his dog blue, it is very sad, but all of you need to seriously stop hating and acting as if nanda did something wrong. He has given all the animals a life, if it wasnt for him they would have killed all of these animals, i forget the name of the company who does it but they would have killed them all, nanda gave them a second chance at life. Sure it would be nice for them to be in the wild, but it was either that or death, and by all means they have a good life, I have sat outside play fighting with the lion mogly for hours at a time, was very fun for me and the lion, they are happy animals, for you to act like they are depressed with such misrable life is bull ****, you dont know. Sure they would be happier in the wild but that just isnt possible for them! atleast they have some sort of life rather then none. So please to all of you DO NOT POST unless you know all these animals and nanda first hand in real life, none of you seem to know anything.

:rolleyes: You're over reacting just a little don't you think? These animals do not belong in cages in road side zoos. I don't care how responsible this person is. And what difference does it make who's dog was mauled? A dog and a jaguar were killed and the jaguar could potentially have mauled a child or grown person had the dog not have crossed its path first. The whole fox story is something that sounds fabricated to me, in my opinion the jaguars natural instincts probably just kicked in after getting out and it decided to "hunt" the dog. And FYI this is a forum where people are SUPPOSED to express their opinions and ideas, you shouldn't be telling people whether or not they have the right to post.

clm
February 14th, 2008, 02:59 PM
If you're going to keep these animals, you need to keep them in enclosures they can't get out of....period.
He may love these animals, but keeping a 400lb cat in an enclosure he could escape from cost this animal it's life as well as the life of his dog.
Chances are his little zoo will now be investigated and likely a long list of things he'll need to do to make it safe for both the animals and the public.

Cindy

happycats
February 14th, 2008, 03:01 PM
You have a valid point, we really shouldn't judge unless we know all the facts in this case. ( I for one have no idea where this zoo is, how well the animals are cared for, and why he is keeping wild animals)
I think that most people are very upset that a dog and Jaguar were killed, and often its hard to see beyond that.

:rip: Bino and poor pup :candle:

Degree
February 14th, 2008, 03:03 PM
:rolleyes: You're over reacting just a little don't you think? These animals do not belong in cages in road side zoos. I don't care how responsible this person is. And what difference does it make who's dog was mauled? A dog and a jaguar were killed and the jaguar could potentially have mauled a child or grown person had the dog not have crossed its path first. The whole fox story is something that sounds fabricated to me, in my opinion the jaguars natural instincts probably just kicked in after getting out and it decided to "hunt" the dog. And FYI this is a forum where people are SUPPOSED to express their opinions and ideas, you shouldn't be telling people whether or not they have the right to post.

The fox story founds fabricated? NAHH I know for a fact that the only reason the animal would have tried to escape is if something took his food, I know from being there. Bino would not have tried to escape for no reason, I know how he reacts to food, I have talked to nanda first hand, I am not just going by what I heard from the news like you probably are. These animals dont deserve to be in cages, zoo's are the same. It is either they get to live in that cage or they get put down, would you put the animal down or give it some sort of life? I would give it a life. If anything you are overreacting, I am just stating the facts.

Degree
February 14th, 2008, 03:04 PM
If you're going to keep these animals, you need to keep them in enclosures they can't get out of....period.
He may love these animals, but keeping a 400lb cat in an enclosure he could escape from cost this animal it's life as well as the life of his dog.
Chances are his little zoo will now be investigated and likely a long list of things he'll need to do to make it safe for both the animals and the public.

Cindy

Yeah sure, how about you people help fund for the bigger stronger cages? theres a thought for ya, atleast hes trying.

clm
February 14th, 2008, 03:06 PM
He's the one keeping the animals, if he can't afford to cage them properly, he shouldn't have them.
I don't ask anyone to pay for the fence to keep my dogs in my yard or my house to house my cats.

Cindy

Renay
February 14th, 2008, 03:10 PM
you ask would i rather put the animal to sleep or keep it as this guy does... well now this jaguar has been shot dead and so has this guys dog. I do not condone zoo's keeping their animals in cages neither, there are severe long term damages done to these animals by doing so. No matter what you do a jaguar or lion will never be a dog and chain link fences sure aren't going to cut it when you want to keep a 400lbs animal secure.

happycats
February 14th, 2008, 03:11 PM
IMO this is a very sad situation, no point fighting, 2 poor animals are dead, and fighting isn't making them come back.

We don't know the whole story, like was this a zoo? Is this a wild life snctuary? Maybe this man truly loves these animals, and is doing his best to care for them. I know I for one have had my cats escape on mor ethen one occasion. I'm sure everyone here has had an incident of an escape, it happens!

Just like the Tiger who got loose and killed one boy and mauled the others, that was apparently a reputable zoo, so how did that Tiger escape?

clm
February 14th, 2008, 03:15 PM
Just like the Tiger who got loose and killed one boy and mauled the others, that was apparently a reputable zoo, so how did that Tiger escape?

That tiger was in an enclosure with a moat and fence 3 feet lower than legally required. That zoo is also being investigated as they've had numerous issues before.
I agree it's a sad situation all around, but if you're going to keep dangerous animals, they need to be kept safely. If you can't manage that, you should not have them.

Cindy

Writing4Fun
February 14th, 2008, 03:16 PM
The jaguar escaped from his cage because he was a wild animal being kept in an unsafe environment. Was it the jaguar's fault, or the fox's? Neither. The owner may have the best of intentions, but it is clearly not safe and thefore wrong. Whatever his childhood may have been like, it is not the same as keeping these animals (which are used to having miles and miles to roam in tropical or desert habitats) in a climate like ours in tiny chain link cages. There's a BIG difference between how these animals are being kept and the conditions in a proper zoo, where they make every educated effort to create a proper and safe habitat.

The animal didn't leave his property this time. What happens next time? What happens if one of them breaks loose because a fox is stealing its chickens again, and then it runs into the nearby forest before the police can shoot it? I can't even bear to think of the potential outcome.

I hope this situation brings about some serious changes to legislation and licensing requirements so that people who want to run this type of refuge must follow strict guidelines, undergo regular inspections and have the proper acredited education required to handle these animals safely.

Renay
February 14th, 2008, 03:18 PM
That tiger was in an enclosure with a moat and fence 3 feet lower than legally required. That zoo is also being investigated as they've had numerous issues before.
I agree it's a sad situation all around, but if you're going to keep dangerous animals, they need to be kept safely. If you can't manage that, you should not have them.

Cindy

Well said. It is too easy for people to get their hands on these kinds of animals and that is exactly what leads to these kinds of accidents. And I keep saying this over and over but I still feel really strongly about the fact that this guy had better count his lucky stars that it wasn't a child that his jaguar mauled.

happycats
February 14th, 2008, 03:21 PM
That tiger was in an enclosure with a moat and fence 3 feet lower than legally required. That zoo is also being investigated as they've had numerous issues before.
I agree it's a sad situation all around, but if you're going to keep dangerous animals, they need to be kept safely. If you can't manage that, you should not have them.

Cindy

Your right, they need to be properly contained.
It's a very sad situation and I wonder how long this jaguar was in this cage? Maybe he has been there awhile and never escaped before, so no one would think he would escape? :shrug: See there's just so much we don't know!

Writing4Fun
February 14th, 2008, 03:48 PM
I for one have no idea where this zoo is, how well the animals are cared for, and why he is keeping wild animals.
The sanctuary is located in the Muskokas, a very popular area in the summer for tourists and where most people from Toronto have their summer cottages.

Why is he keeping them? Does that really matter? It's not being done safely, which is the most important point, imho.

But, you're right ... the jaguar and the dog paid the price. It breaks my heart that a majestic creature and a faithful pet had to die, yet again, due to human error. :sad:

Mom_Of_Two_Dogs
February 14th, 2008, 03:57 PM
Another reason for tight enforcement on zoos and sanctuaries :( It really bugs me there's next to no laws regarding how these places are run, yet pit bulls have to be muzzled while out for a walk. Go figure!

The zoo's owner's comment about that enclosure . . . Bull. Here's some great links to information regarding Ontario's zoos:

http://www.ontariozoos.ca
http://www.zoocheck.com

Writing4Fun
February 14th, 2008, 04:17 PM
I hear ya, MOTD. :frustrated: I wonder if Mr. Bryant or his successor have a cottage in the Muskokas... :rolleyes:

happycats
February 14th, 2008, 04:33 PM
The sanctuary is located in the Muskokas, a very popular area in the summer for tourists and where most people from Toronto have their summer cottages.

Why is he keeping them? Does that really matter? It's not being done safely, which is the most important point, imho.

But, you're right ... the jaguar and the dog paid the price. It breaks my heart that a majestic creature and a faithful pet had to die, yet again, due to human error. :sad:


To me it matters, was it some cheap sleezy zoo out to make a few bucks, or was it an actually sanctuary, where animals would have been put to death had this sanctuary not taken them in? IMO there is a difference.

Writing4Fun
February 14th, 2008, 05:28 PM
To me it matters, was it some cheap sleezy zoo out to make a few bucks, or was it an actually sanctuary, where animals would have been put to death had this sanctuary not taken them in? IMO there is a difference.
IMO there's no difference, since the end result is that an animal (2 animals, actually) died because of a human being's negligence. I do believe there was negligence involved, since the cage was insufficient to hold the animal in question. I think the owner might feel that he is running an actual sanctuary ... but is it truly a "sanctuary" if the animals are not in proper habitats? I'm sure he loves his animals and feels he is doing the best he can, but how often have we seen on this board alone that "the best you can" is not always good enough?

happycats
February 14th, 2008, 06:14 PM
IMO there's no difference, since the end result is that an animal (2 animals, actually) died because of a human being's negligence. I do believe there was negligence involved, since the cage was insufficient to hold the animal in question. I think the owner might feel that he is running an actual sanctuary ... but is it truly a "sanctuary" if the animals are not in proper habitats? I'm sure he loves his animals and feels he is doing the best he can, but how often have we seen on this board alone that "the best you can" is not always good enough?

You can never do good enough for a wild animal in my opinion, the only thing good enough for them is being free in the wild in their natural habitat. That being said, some animals are not safe in the wild, and the only safe place for them is in captivity.
With habitat destruction, poching, hunting, logging and human's totaly taking over everything, many wild animals would be dead/extinct if it weren't for zoo's and sanctuarys.

Renay
February 14th, 2008, 06:57 PM
With sanctuarys like this one what difference does it honestly make whether or not they are left in the wild or they are put into captivity? Sure, MAYBE this guy really did love his animals, MAYBE his animals really are well cared for, well maybe he'll think twice now about reinforcing his fencing and about properly containing these animals that he is supposed to love oh so much. It makes me very angry to see these people who think they have a god given right to own whatever their little hearts desire. People need to stop seeing animals as a commodity and open their eyes to the reality that they are a HUGE responsibility.

Writing4Fun
February 15th, 2008, 09:27 AM
I don't know, Happycats. :sad: I'd like to think that they are better off in captivity, but I've seen some pretty disturbing behaviour shown in captive animals that makes me wonder. Part of me would like to go to these road-side zoos and sanctuaries and make an "informed" decision myself about whether or not they're doing "the best" for the animals. Part of me doesn't want to go, afraid of what I'll find, and also because I wouldn't want to support someone who's in it for the money at the animals' expense.

I posted something about environmental groups in the Off Topic folder. Apparently, WSPA has reported on a couple of these road side zoos (I don't know if this particular zoo was one of them). Some of the zoos have started fighting back. It's so easy for both sides to post pictures and video that support their cause, it's very hard to figure out who to believe these days. :sad:

Degree
February 15th, 2008, 03:17 PM
IMO there's no difference, since the end result is that an animal (2 animals, actually) died because of a human being's negligence. I do believe there was negligence involved, since the cage was insufficient to hold the animal in question. I think the owner might feel that he is running an actual sanctuary ... but is it truly a "sanctuary" if the animals are not in proper habitats? I'm sure he loves his animals and feels he is doing the best he can, but how often have we seen on this board alone that "the best you can" is not always good enough?

He has had many animals live there for years and years. He never had a animal escape before, this was the first time. Have you ever had one of your dogs escape? or cats?mistakes are bound to happen over time, you think a animal has never escaped the zoo? Do you know Nanda Guha your self? have you seen how he ran his zoo? have you seen how his cages were build? I dont think you know much about his zoo, once again I say people should not talk about things they dont know details. I helped feed those animals and run the farm for over 2 years, I helped build some of the cages. He cared his best and took good care of his animals. For the people who say " he was trying to make a buck " That is BS, he put more money into those animals then he ever made, the little bit of money he made went towards helping the animals. The cages were build strong and legal hight. Like I said before, This was the first time anything like this has happened over the many years he have had these animals. You all need to stop judging if you dont know Nanda, and if you havnt seen his farm first hand. I seen it for over 2 years of helping him, and I know more then anyone here, it was a freak accident.

Degree
February 15th, 2008, 03:25 PM
With sanctuarys like this one what difference does it honestly make whether or not they are left in the wild or they are put into captivity? Sure, MAYBE this guy really did love his animals, MAYBE his animals really are well cared for, well maybe he'll think twice now about reinforcing his fencing and about properly containing these animals that he is supposed to love oh so much. It makes me very angry to see these people who think they have a god given right to own whatever their little hearts desire. People need to stop seeing animals as a commodity and open their eyes to the reality that they are a HUGE responsibility.

Every one of those animals at Nanda's zoo would have been killed. Every one that he ever cared for would have died. If you do not know Nanda Guha your self why do you keep accusing him of things? This was the first time any animal has escaped from his zoo, He has lived there years and years. Freak accident as I said before, stop judging if you dont know first hand. It doesnt matter anything you say because he gave all those animals a chance at life, its sad that Bino and blue died, horible accident. When they take all the tigers, lions, jaguars, they will kill them all, they would have a long time ago. STOP JUDGING UNLESS YOU GO TALK TO NANDA YOUR SELF AND WHAT THE ZOO WAS LIKE AND HOW IT WAS BUILT PLEASE AND THANK YOU.

Chris21711
February 15th, 2008, 03:38 PM
Degree - I find you slightly over zealous in your responses to the members of this forum. They are very much entitled to their opinions as you are. It almost feels like you are yelling. Regardless of how much care and love these animals receive, there is absolutely no question that Roadside Zoos are in very dire need of some governance. That is not my opinion, it is a fact.

Stacer
February 15th, 2008, 04:02 PM
I just viewed the video of the newscast, what caught my attention was when the reporter said that the "jaguar worked for hours to create the hole in the fence that it escaped though." Obviously the fencing is NOT strong enough if the jaguar can work to free itself.

I googled Guha's sanctuary and found a blog here (http://www.nshurr.com/2006/07/guhas-post-2-tigers.html) with some interesting comments about Nanda Guha.

I think if people in this province want to create a sanctuary, then they should be limited to animals that are native to this climate and be under strict rules and regulations governing the operation of such a facility.

How did these animals come to be in Ontario? Did he import them?

If anyone is really concerned about this facility contact www.zoocheck.com, they are a national charity dedicated to the welfare of captive animals. They conduct investigations into privately run facilities. In fact, they did a report on Guha's Lion and Tiger Farm in 2006. Here it is: report. (http://www.zoocheck.com/Reports%20pdf's/Report063.pdf) I didn't have to search hard to find this.

Degree
February 15th, 2008, 04:12 PM
I just viewed the video of the newscast, what caught my attention was when the reporter said that the "jaguar worked for hours to create the hole in the fence that it escaped though." Obviously the fencing is NOT strong enough if the jaguar can work to free itself.

I googled Guha's sanctuary and found a blog here (http://www.nshurr.com/2006/07/guhas-post-2-tigers.html) with some interesting comments about Nanda Guha.

I think if people in this province want to create a sanctuary, then they should be limited to animals that are native to this climate and be under strict rules and regulations governing the operation of such a facility.

How did these animals come to be in Ontario? Did he import them?

If anyone is really concerned about this facility contact www.zoocheck.com, they are a national charity dedicated to the welfare of captive animals. They conduct investigations into privately run facilities. In fact, they did a report on Guha's Lion and Tiger Farm in 2006. Here it is: report (http://www.zoocheck.com/Reports%20pdf's/Report063.pdf)

Alot of the blog's comments are not correct at all, things about him being a liar is not true, whoever took the things he said is a idiot, he makes jokes. Also Bino has been there for a few years and never escaped. Do you know what Bino looks like? Have you seen how he acts when food is around? That thing was a tank, it could have escaped almost any cage if it really wanted to. They are not supposed to try and escape like that, it was a freak accident. How many animals have escaped from Zoo's? I have heard a few story's about it at the Toronto zoo, What do you got to say about that? They should shut down all zoo's maybe? all your comments are stupid, it was a accident. period. Only info you people know is he said she said BS you dont know any of it first hand in person, you dont know what truly happend and why it happend.

Degree
February 15th, 2008, 04:14 PM
Degree - I find you slightly over zealous in your responses to the members of this forum. They are very much entitled to their opinions as you are. It almost feels like you are yelling. Regardless of how much care and love these animals receive, there is absolutely no question that Roadside Zoos are in very dire need of some governance. That is not my opinion, it is a fact.

It wasnt a roadside zoo, thats just what the news is making it out to be. Not one person here actually knows Nanda or has actually been to that zoo to see what its been like over the years, so there opinion is nothing but a guess of what has happend and how it is actually like, and thats nonsense.

Stacer
February 15th, 2008, 04:31 PM
Degree, your comments are immature and unintelligent. Please read the report of the investigation conducted by zoocheck. It's all the proof I need to decide whether or not Guha's is a place I'd want to spend my money.

Ford Girl
February 15th, 2008, 04:39 PM
Degree - I'm sorry, but you do come across as yelling and angry, not at all logical in your responses, what comes across is anger, confusion, and a desperate need to change the views of your friend to the general public. But I guess that's understandable since you know these people and take part in the animal care and have fist hand knowledge of the operations of this place. Is that correct? Calling us stupid and idiots becuase of our feeling towards the news clip and general care for the animals doesn't make you any better.

Remember...Persuasion is better then force. My mind shut down after your first insult, why would I bother reading what you had to say. If you want to get positive word out there, and support and understanding of the general public and animal lovers alike please change your approach, it's not working, and back it with the true facts rather then say...'if you believe what you read, your an idiot".

To me, your anger doesn't make me believe you, it makes me think you are hiding something, back tracking, covering up what the media presented.

Ok, so it was a freak accident as you say. Since you have inside information, please tell us what is being done to prevent a simular freak accident. I am interested to know what's being done to prevent this from happening again, accidents happen we all get that, but they are preventable.

If you have first hand knowledge and feel as passionate as you do about this person and his animals, then please share some of the positive info with us...

Ford Girl
February 15th, 2008, 04:54 PM
I just read the report. :sad:

I still back what I said above in regards to your approach.

But now I have to ask, how can anyone think that is a better life for an animal? This is an offical report, not gossip, not rumors, how can this be disputed.

Oh, and the report was 2006...why was this place kept open?? I feel bad for all the animals, but especially the lone wolf. :sad: Wolves shouldn't be alone. :sad:

Even tho his intentions were to help save these animals, as with animal horders, and the chinese companies that cage the moon bears. :sad: Doesn't make it right.

chico2
February 15th, 2008, 05:22 PM
I am sorry,but I think it is an absolute outrage that roadside Zoos even exists in this country,makes me sick,to be honest.
This man Nandu might have taken good care of his animals and loved them,by taking good care,it probably means feed them and keep their cages clean.
However these beautiful animals should never,ever have to live in cages,it's horrible way for an animal to excist and should never be allowed.IMO

We can hardly compare,a housecat or a dog getting out,with a Panther escaping his prison,for whatever reason.
No,I do not symphatize with Mr Nandu,my sympathy lies with the animals,including the poor dog.

Amy P
February 15th, 2008, 05:45 PM
I would just like to say...maybe this was an accident. But it was one that seemed to be inevitable. I'm sure Nanda cared for these animals, however, I went to the zoo check website and saw the pictures of how these animals were living and I was appalled at their living conditions! The living areas were small and they had nothing for them to play with. They didn't seem to have any indoor private areas to escape weather. And their water!!!!:yell::yell: Green and dirty. So green in one of the pictures you would have thought the bucket was green...but it wasn't. The students said they wouldn't drink fresh water...are you kidding? I'm sure the love was there from Nanda and I really don't want to judge him but if your finances don't allow you to have adequate housing for your animals your love for them should be strong enough to find them a better home.

erykah1310
February 15th, 2008, 06:56 PM
OH MY:rolleyes:
This is just insane
Im not on any side here, BUT
I do agree however that roadside zoo's or "sanctuaries" or what ever should be governed in some way. But not that they should be illegal. I just think perhaps more education or strict policies on how the animals are contained should be in place.

Now, this escape and tragedy isnt very far from me either, thankfully nothing worse happened, it is very sad that the dog and Jaguar were both killed, very sad.
But whats with the attacks on the guy who had the animals?
Im sorry but I have had many "accidents" in my house with my domesticated pets. For example:
Kita breaking Larrys leg accidently while they were running in the house,
Karma puncturing Kitas trachea accidently while wrestling
My Rottie Kiera attacking Meiko over a milk bone and puncturing his face
Meiko biting Kitas leg accidently while both of them were playing frisbee

trust me the list goes on and on....
Does this all of a sudden make me a bad person too? I mean, sure everything turned out fine, and all of the animals in question were given medical attention and so on, also granted my domestic pets are not animals that were born wild either, but still, sometimes wild animals can not be wild anymore.

Accidents happen, S*** happens. Its just the way things go.

Now we can all sit here and attack this person for owning this cat that should not be in Ontario, that is suffering in a cage with others ect ect...
And we can all jump to conclusions on how he isnt taking proper care of the animals, he is careless and wreakless and so on. Which lets face it we all have our moments of jumping to such conclusions.
However what gets me is, if he is doing such an evil or horrible thing by having these cats... why did the OPP do the report on the news calmly, seriously and relieved that nothing worse happened due to the owners quick descision to call them as fast as he did. And now that he is in the "spotlight" with animal activists and pet lovers, why does he still have the animals???

Maybe, just maybe, he is doing a decent job with them:shrug:

Funny how we havent heard anything from him before no? Maybe if he had been brought to our attention a few months ago about this most of you would have been saying how wonderful it is that he is doing what he is doing for the animals, but sadly now that a fellow pet lover had an incident, the people who perhaps should be more interested in helping in some way are now attacking him.
I find it sad that when someone does try to do something to help there is an angry mob who is quick to attack as soon as something isnt done exactly how they would like to see it done, or as soon as something goes wrong.

I think instead of everyone focusing all their anger and attention on the man who owned these animals, perhaps we all should be focusing on preventing these wild animals from ending up in places like this in the first place, maybe these things wouldnt happen. So, I am far more intersted in where these cats came from, and why he has them in the first place, and I would far more like to attack the people who had the animals previously.

Perhaps this is just me though:shrug:

sugarcatmom
February 15th, 2008, 07:11 PM
Maybe, just maybe, he is doing a decent job with them:shrug:


You really should read the report that Stacer linked to.

CONCLUSIONS

This investigation concluded that Guha's Lions and Tigers is problematic in many respects. The cages and enclosures tend to be simplistic, poorly designed and barren. Six exhibits at the facility were reviewed using a modified version of the Zoo Exhibit Quick Audit Process (ZEQAP) described earlier in this report. Five of those exhibits received failing grades.

Some of the key problems identified during this investigation include:

1. Poorly constructed cages and enclosures.
2. Undersized cages and enclosures.
3. Barren hardpan floor surfaces.
4. Lack of adequate shelter and privacy from public viewing.
5. Lack of structural enhancements, furnishings and/or enrichment programming to encourage species-typical movements and behaviours.
6. Lack of potable water.
7. Lack of standard safety features, such as double-door entry gates and shift areas.
8. Volunteers entering cages housing potentially dangerous animals.

Some of these problems were identified in an earlier report prepared for the Ruby Edwardh law firm by Rob Laidlaw in May 2003.

While a few of the more substantive problems (e.g., undersized cages) at Guha's might require a significant amount of time, effort and resources to address, other problems (e.g., potable water, furnishings) could be resolved with rather minimal effort and funds. However, given that obvious, easily rectified problems remain unaddressed, there is little reason to believe that the more substantive problems will be resolved at any point in the near future.


Honestly, this doesn't sound like a man who loves his animals and is doing everything he can for them.

erykah1310
February 15th, 2008, 07:27 PM
Alright then...
Seeing as though from that link, they have investigated in August 2006 and May 2003 by a Rob Laidlaw for Ruby Edward law firm, why did he still have the animals?
If it was as bad as these people say it is, why were they still there? I dont get it.
Forgive me, but it just seems that too many things dont add up.
If it were indeed that unsafe, who allowed him to keep the animals?

Writing4Fun
February 15th, 2008, 08:33 PM
...why did he still have the animals?...
Because the municipality doesn't have any existing laws to cover this situation. What he is doing is probably perfectly legal. That's part of the problem. We all know it. Animals in this province, in this country, have the same rights as a toaster. :sad: We don't have to love our dogs and cats, as long as we give them enough food and water to survive and bring them to the vet when they are obviously sick (or, at least, if we don't get caught doing otherwise), that's all they need, right? :frustrated:

glitterless
February 15th, 2008, 08:46 PM
I'm confused. I thought that a "lack of potable water" was grounds for fines, charges, or removal of the animal by the OSPCA? Are exotic animals exempt from this law? Does it only apply to livestock and domesticated pets?

I'm also wondering why this guy was in business if Zoo Check AND the MNR had reasons to believe that his animals were not being properly cared for.

Writing4Fun
February 15th, 2008, 08:47 PM
And, Degree, I'm very sorry if I was over-zealous in my initial reaction to this news story. It was a little too close for comfort. I still don't like the situation, though. I firmly believe that the enclosures are too small and poorly constructed, from what I saw on the news reports. I also believe that these animals shouldn't be kept in this climate. They weren't built for it. I feel this is true for any zoo or sanctuary that cannot provide heated indoor areas for non-native animals, not just this particular sanctuary. As for the rest of that report ... if it's true, then I pray that the deaths of these two wonderful creatures will at least lend some impetus to local governments to draft up regulations to change things for the better for the other animals currently in similar situations across the province. :pray:

Stacer
February 15th, 2008, 09:17 PM
Now we can all sit here and attack this person for owning this cat that should not be in Ontario, that is suffering in a cage with others ect ect...
And we can all jump to conclusions on how he isnt taking proper care of the animals, he is careless and wreakless and so on. Which lets face it we all have our moments of jumping to such conclusions.
However what gets me is, if he is doing such an evil or horrible thing by having these cats... why did the OPP do the report on the news calmly, seriously and relieved that nothing worse happened due to the owners quick descision to call them as fast as he did. And now that he is in the "spotlight" with animal activists and pet lovers, why does he still have the animals???

Maybe, just maybe, he is doing a decent job with them:shrug:

Funny how we havent heard anything from him before no? Maybe if he had been brought to our attention a few months ago about this most of you would have been saying how wonderful it is that he is doing what he is doing for the animals, but sadly now that a fellow pet lover had an incident, the people who perhaps should be more interested in helping in some way are now attacking him.
I find it sad that when someone does try to do something to help there is an angry mob who is quick to attack as soon as something isnt done exactly how they would like to see it done, or as soon as something goes wrong.

I think instead of everyone focusing all their anger and attention on the man who owned these animals, perhaps we all should be focusing on preventing these wild animals from ending up in places like this in the first place, maybe these things wouldnt happen. So, I am far more intersted in where these cats came from, and why he has them in the first place, and I would far more like to attack the people who had the animals previously.

Unfortunately it often takes a tragedy for the public to take notice (humans are reactive, not proactive). And most animal lovers avoid places like those, so questions aren't raised about the conditions in the general population. This place is in a very touristy area, people from all over visit that place then go home to wherever they're from.
Many people go quietly unnoticed in their neglect of pets. I don't think it's funny how we haven't heard anything about him until now. That's how things work, you don't hear about someone until they do something wrong. Anyway, some people have heard of him and have investigated him. Like another member said, there're no municipal laws to govern his activities and the OSPCA has asked for greater power in these types of situations and is getting no where with the government.

I think this man MUST answer for what happened. It IS his fault. Sure animals will be animals, but large exotic predators that should be kept in secure compounds should not be able to get loose under any circumstances.

Perhaps this is just me though:shrug:

I think so.

Frenchy
February 15th, 2008, 09:22 PM
Animals in this province, in this country, have the same rights as a toaster. :sad:

Actually , in Quebec , I think my toaster has more rights. :wall:

Degree
February 15th, 2008, 09:28 PM
You really should read the report that Stacer linked to.



Honestly, this doesn't sound like a man who loves his animals and is doing everything he can for them.


All the big cages had double door entry's, pretty much everyone did cept the one couger cage. Most the cages were pretty big, I wouldnt say they were huge but they were all pretty decent sizes, there was the 1 couger cage that was small but since 2006 there was 6 bigger cages built. I wouldnt say there was any problems with the construction of the cages, Bino was the first problem with any escape in all of Guha's history. He was only one man who had a few helpers who would help from time to time. All the animals were fed great and always had attention from nanda, he treated them like his own children. There was always construction building bigger cages and what not, was always working on making it bigger and better for the animals. Nanda isnt a super rich person so he did the best he could do, he is also older so its hard for him to do so much by him self. He is a 9th generation lion and tiger handler, he has been around these kind of animals all his life, he talks to them, even lays down with them in the cages and keep them company. It is very sad what happend. Animals have escaped from zoo's, crazy things happen. Obviously the cages could have been bigger, stronger, but I think any animal cage should be bigger, in zoo's or anywhere. He did the best he can do, he has had these kind of animals his whole life, this first problem. I see all these comments from people who have seen" pics " on the net, or news articles. Those people who did the report and gave nanda guha's a bad report wanted to take all the aniamls, and they would have killed them all. The reason they didnt is because many people protested to keep them alive, so now that you people know that. I never seen anyone come to Guha's and say OMG poor animals, they all thought it was great that he was doing this. Now somehting bad happens and everyone wants to say bad things. Nanda Guha is the nicest person I have ever met in my life, and very interesting, I have never seen anyone care so much about animals my whole life. He works 24/7 for them and does all he can. I didnt mean to come off angry, but the truth is i am because everysingle person who has posted doesnt know him in person and hasnt actually seen what it was like, I love all the animals there and they all seem very happy, when you go there as much as me you really get to know the animals, and they get to know you. It isnt a horible place like some people make it out to be, its actually a pretty happy place. I just hope if they take the aniamls away they dont kill them all, they are all beautiful.
http://multimedia.simcoe.com/images/1a/f2/55263c6a4176855e9723da1508dd.jpeg

sugarcatmom
February 15th, 2008, 11:14 PM
I'm confused. I thought that a "lack of potable water" was grounds for fines, charges, or removal of the animal by the OSPCA? Are exotic animals exempt from this law? Does it only apply to livestock and domesticated pets?

From this website: http://www.ontariozoos.ca/norules.html

The sad reality is that, in Ontario, zoos are given free reign to operate regardless of how they treat their animals or the danger they pose to their community. There is no legal requirement in Ontario for zoo operators to have any practical experience in zoo management or animal husbandry. It is astonishing but true: roadside zoos can operate not only with substandard conditions, but also with untrained and inexperienced staff, and without proper funding or appropriate safety practices.

Regulations under the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act (FWCA) requires all those keeping, buying or selling game wildlife and specially protected wildlife in the province to obtain a licence from the Ministry of Natural Resources (MNR). The regulation also requires licence holders to comply with the following four general conditions attached to the licence:



Animal enclosures in which animals are on public display should be of a size which enables the animals to:


exercise natural behaviours to facilitate public education and interpretation
achieve a distance from the public and other specimens at which the animals are not psychologically or physically stressed
achieve a full range of body movements and physical movements normally performed



Veterinary services must be available for the animal collection


The licence holder must keep a log book that contains information respecting the buying, selling, acquisition, disposition, birth and death of the specimens kept under the authority of this licence. The log book shall be kept for the five years after the expiry of the licence.

All specially protected raptors or non-indigenous falconry birds must be marked with a clearly and uniquely numbered band of a type approved by the Minister.



Thatís it. There are no requirements for appropriate food or water, environmental enrichment or public safety. Though there are a few basic provisions related to the size of the enclosure, the conditions remain vague, undefined and are clearly not being enforced.

chico2
February 16th, 2008, 08:16 AM
Degree,you know this man and like this man,but this story is not really about him,it's about suffering exotic animals.
I look at tigers,lions and others exotics on display in cages in Third World Countries,pacing back and forth,with a dead look in their eyes,totally hopeless,it's enough to make you cry.

WE should do better than that,but as far as animals are concerned our laws are a disgrace,compared to many other civilized countries,that includes domestic and wild animals and our responsability to protect them from harm.

I have no idea where this man got his animals,but a sanctuary,should be a sanctuary,where animals can live as close to their natural habitat as possible.
A CAGE is not a sanctuary,it's a prison:yell:
Ideally they should all live where they belong,but since they are here to be displayed to us,they should be kept in the best possible safe way.
I did not look at any pics,do not want to ruin a sunny beautiful day.I would do so only if there was a happy ending to this story,but there is none:sad:

Renay
February 16th, 2008, 05:31 PM
Something was previously mentioned stating that people who want to have these road side zoos should keep only animals that are native to the climates in the area and I really agree with that. However, I think people should have proper permits and liscensing (very expensive permits and liscensing), be forced to have tranquilizer guns on hand, be evaluated every 3-4 months, and should also be forced to provide a proper habitat for these animals to live in. A snowy cage is no place for a jaguar. The words snow and cage should not even be in the same sentence as the word Jaguar EVER. Also, the guy who owned these animals could have been my mother for all I care, there are certain protocols and proceedures that need to be followed when caring for an animal of this size, and obviously something was missed here. I don't think how good of a person this guy was has anything to do with it, this accident was inevitable, and could have easily been prevented. I don't think it takes me or anyone else to go out there in person to see that, the video shows the cages, what more difference would it make if we all went there and saw the cages when we've already seen them on video... a picture is worth a thousand words is how the old saying goes... but a video has to be worth more right? Its high time that the laws in this country became stricter regarding animals... And Frenchy, your comment about your toaster having more rights in Quebec hits the nail right on the head...

erykah1310
February 16th, 2008, 06:23 PM
I think so.

Easy :rolleyes:

glitterless
February 16th, 2008, 06:41 PM
From this website: http://www.ontariozoos.ca/norules.html

Thanks so much for that link; that explains a lot.

chico2
February 17th, 2008, 08:50 AM
Yes ditto to that SCM and shame on Ontario and British Colombia:frustrated:
I was always under the impression,keeping exotics was NOT permitted anywhere in Canada.
OMG was I wrong:yell:
So,why then am I not allowed to keep chickens in my backyard for fresh eggs???

Degree
February 17th, 2008, 01:47 PM
Degree,you know this man and like this man,but this story is not really about him,it's about suffering exotic animals.
I look at tigers,lions and others exotics on display in cages in Third World Countries,pacing back and forth,with a dead look in their eyes,totally hopeless,it's enough to make you cry.

WE should do better than that,but as far as animals are concerned our laws are a disgrace,compared to many other civilized countries,that includes domestic and wild animals and our responsability to protect them from harm.

I have no idea where this man got his animals,but a sanctuary,should be a sanctuary,where animals can live as close to their natural habitat as possible.
A CAGE is not a sanctuary,it's a prison:yell:
Ideally they should all live where they belong,but since they are here to be displayed to us,they should be kept in the best possible safe way.
I did not look at any pics,do not want to ruin a sunny beautiful day.I would do so only if there was a happy ending to this story,but there is none:sad:

Actually the story is all about him, and it was about people judging him and his farm, its about people comparing third world country roadside zoo's where I am sure there is many cases of animals being treated like crap. This is not the case, All the animals were happy, they didnt have a " dead " look in there eyes, not at all. When I first met nanda and his animals, I was suprised at how much he cared for them, and how much attention and work was put into them, how much food they got to eat everyday. He took damn good care of all his animals, so its wrong for anyone to compare him to other roadside zoo's by all means this was not the same at all. If anyone cares about animals its me, I hate seeing sad caged animals, I hate seeing people trying to make money off them aswell, its sick. This was not the case at all, so to assume that his animals were " dead " inside, or really sad, your wrong. I have seen times when these animals were really sad, when there mates died. Other then that they are sooo happy and you really can tell, how they prance arround all happy to get food, jumpin around, rolling around, playing with there mates. Its a beautiful site. Please dont assume that these animals were all sad, treated bad, or are anything compaed to zoo's in other countrys. These animals love Nanda as much as he loves them, and they have damn good lifes, Sure them being free in the wild would be amazing too see, I would love to see mogly " the young lion " prancing around in the wild, but sometimes fate just wont allow such a thing. I fully agree things need to be changed for many roadside zoo's, but dont compare them all because they are all differnt. You say its not about nanda, then how about this, its all about the animals at Nanda's zoo. I have not seen one person comment here who knows these animals, knows how they live each day by day, how happy they were, whats happend through there life. Once again I only see people assume things, and compare to other zoo's who I am sure are horible places. It pains me to see people think they have such horrible lifes, cus they really dont. BTW there is usually no happy ending to any story, same for us humans all have a bad ending, we die. Stop making it out to be such a depressing thing when you dont even know how this place was made, as I said before these animals would have all been put down, I am so happy they are given this chance to live a good life, they are happy, i know first hand. Stop comparing to other horible zoo's, you didnt even look at the pics, either way pics are nothing, how about see how they are in real life, then cmoe comment? thanks.

clm
February 17th, 2008, 04:31 PM
We're all entitled to our own opinions on this roadside zoo whether you like it or not. :shrug:
Your friend may love these animals a great deal. You obviously think a great deal of your friend. Bottom line is the welfare of these animals. Big cats need exercise and big cages to be able to do that. That's not what your friend is able to provide. My entire house is just barely big enough for my 3 domestic cats to get the exercise they need and the toys and trees and other things I provide to keep their bodies fit and their minds active. All the love and food in the world isn't enough if the exercise and the mental stimulas can't be provided as well. Fine for the short term, but no life for any animal long term.

Cindy

chico2
February 17th, 2008, 04:44 PM
Degree,I am not going to argue with you about this,the fact remains,this beautiful Jaguar is dead,as well as the poor dog:sad:
I would assume most "zoo-keepers"would be equipped to handle situations like this,on their own,with tranquiliser-guns or a real gun,should he need it.
Also,most animals are happy when they see food coming,a distraction in their otherwise uneventful life.
I think we have said it all on this subject,I am hoping all his animals will be moved,to a place where they'll have shelter from the cold and a proper area to play and exersize,seeing they can never be put back in the wild:sad: