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Great Pyrenees Aggression

murraylatham
February 1st, 2008, 08:12 PM
I have a 6 month old female Great Pyrenees that isn't spayed. Since we got her we've kept her in the mud room off our garage/kitchen and have always fed her there. Since I got home 2 weeks ago from being away at work for 3 months she has started to show her teeth and growl at my 1 year old daughter and our cat whenever they go near the mud room, whether she's in there or not, and regardless of if there is food there or not. And if I go up to her to get in between the dog and baby she really starts to growl at me and will bite if I try to grab her and take her outside to calm down. She is not like this anywhere else in the house, but I'm afraid that she soon will. Right now, my wife and have decided to get rid of the dog. Does anyone have any ideas for correcting her (besides recommending we get a trainer, obedience training, or a behaviourist)? Thanks

clm
February 1st, 2008, 08:21 PM
Is she always in the mud room or does she just sleep out there? Does she spend most of her time inside with your family?

Cindy

luckypenny
February 1st, 2008, 08:23 PM
If you're unwilling to work with a behaviorist and have already made up your minds about re-homing her, please contact the closest Pyranees/Giant Breed rescue. As a result of being confined to, and fed in a small area away from the family, perhaps she hasn't learned family rules. It's only natural that she has learned to guard her place. Please, please get her to a rescue that will work with her issues and give her a second chance at life.

murraylatham
February 1st, 2008, 10:38 PM
She only goes into the mud room to eat and sleep (either by herself or at night when it's bed time), or when we leave the house to go somewhere. We were going to try Bark Busters (www.barkbusters.com) but cancelled our appointment when we decided to remove the dog from our family. Right now I'm thinking about contacting Birch Haven Rescue and Rehab (www.birchhaven.org) to see if they will take her and find her a good home. I have contacted all the local sheep farms and they say she is too old to go back to a farm to become a working dog (3 months is the limit they say).

rainbow
February 1st, 2008, 11:19 PM
I wish you had researched the breed before you fell in love with the cute puppy. Please find a rescue that will take her. :fingerscr

clm
February 2nd, 2008, 06:12 AM
The pyr is a wonderful breed and if socialized properly can be real gentle giants. She's still very young, so please get her into a rescue as soon as possible so they can work with her and get her into a loving forever home.

Cindy

mona_b
February 2nd, 2008, 08:54 AM
I have to agree with the comments that were made.

The ONLY way of correction this is to seek a trainer/behaviorist.

She has become very territorial to the mud room.And this is a guardian breed.Seems like she thinks the mud room is HER room.

How long have you had her?

Also,does she act this way with your wife?You did mention you were away for some time.


clm is so right.This is a wonderful breed.I know a couple and they are the sweetest dogs.:)

Did you get this pup from a breeder?If so,have you contacted them to let them know what's happening?

Frenchy
February 2nd, 2008, 09:08 AM
Right now I'm thinking about contacting Birch Haven Rescue and Rehab (www.birchhaven.org)

This is a mighty good rescue ! :thumbs up And if they can't take her , please contact other rescues in the area. Since your dog isn't spayed , she could end up in a puppy mill if you don't put her into a good rescue.

CearaQC
February 2nd, 2008, 09:18 AM
Not trying to be rude, but I sense that maybe you don't want to put in the work to make your dog a better companion and would rather give up and rehome the dog without trying? *sigh*

Western society... wants everything yesterday and with minimal effort...thinks that animals come cleanly packaged to live out the "normal" life with a "normal" family.

But usually what is really going on is the human family is not stable, then the dog becomes unstable. Then dog gets blamed, and is given away hopefully to a good home, but more times than not, ends up in shelters and euthanized.

It's not that difficult in most instances to "cure" the aggression, but you need to practice and maintain leadership 100%. You should set the rules and boundaries of your household and what is allowed and what behavior is not allowed. Yes this takes work and isn't a quick fix that goes away in 10 minutes. It may take weeks. Not hard, but time consuming.

If you show fear, then the dog will think she can walk all over you and dominate your household.

Majority of the regular members on this board have come across one behavior issue or another and have had experience. However, in an internet setting, there's no "quick fix" anyone can provide you to help with immediate training.

In my opinion no one should get any pet without researching all about it, preparing the household for safety and making sure all members of the family know and understand the rules that will be there for the dog to follow.

No dog comes pre-programmed with knowing how to behave in a house, no matter how cute it is.

I don't think you should rehome the dog and I think you should take the time to read, learn and ask a million questions about dogs and training, AND get the advice of a good trainer, AND see this as a learning experience for you and your family. See this as an opportunity to make a difference and follow through with the commitment you began when you took that puppy home the first day. Don't just sigh and give up... step up to the plate and grow as a human with this experience and set a good example for others to follow!

You will have lots of support, but you gotta make an effort. Are you up for the challenge?

Myka
February 2nd, 2008, 12:35 PM
Although I agree with the above post, I also think that most people have no clue about training a dog. Knowing how to train a dog isn't human instinct, it's a learned tool. People have problems like this man is having with his Pyranees ALL THE TIME. Some people are willing to learn how to train their dog, others aren't. If this man isn't willing to learn how to train his dog (by use of hiring a trainer/behaviorist), then he should not have a dog. This does not make him a bad person, it just makes him an uneducated person. He may not even know that he doesn't know. Ignorance and naivety are two VERY different things. This man is doing the right thing.

murraylatham: I am glad that you are able to recognise that you unable to train your dog safely, and properly. I wish luck to you and your dog that she finds a good home. I am happy that you are willing to put the effort into finding her a good rescue. Thanks for doing that for your dog. :thumbs up It is VERY difficult to provide you with the information you would need to train this aggression out of your dog without being there to show you. I don't think you will be able to learn this from the internet, but thanks for trying! :)

mona_b
February 2nd, 2008, 11:27 PM
But Myka,it seems like he is not willing to even give a trainer a try.As he stated,he made an appt,but cancelled due to them deciding to give her up.Why not at least try to get to the root of the problem?

That's just my opinion.:)

Remember,he has been gone for 3 months,pup was 3 months and is now 6 months...I'm just waiting to hear how this pup has been with the wife while he was gone.

Myka
February 2nd, 2008, 11:48 PM
But Myka,it seems like he is not willing to even give a trainer a try.As he stated,he made an appt,but cancelled due to them deciding to give her up.Why not at least try to get to the root of the problem?

Some people either don't have the finances or the will, in which case the dog is better off re-homed. :shrug:

mona_b
February 3rd, 2008, 12:08 AM
True.

I hope he comes back on to fill us in some more.And answer our questions.

rainbow
February 3rd, 2008, 12:13 AM
Remember,he has been gone for 3 months,pup was 3 months and is now 6 months...I'm just waiting to hear how this pup has been with the wife while he was gone.

I was wondering that as well. Too bad we don't know his wife's side of the story.....maybe it has something to do with him as well. :shrug:

coppperbelle
February 3rd, 2008, 06:28 PM
There is a one year old child in this home so all precautions must be taken to protect her.
If you can't work with a trainer then it is best you contact a reputable rescue group about surrendering her.
Please do it soon so that your child is safe and that your dog has a chance at rehabilitation. Make sure you are honest with the rescue group about her aggression.

good Luck

BHRR
February 4th, 2008, 08:00 PM
Frenchy,

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. :)

BHRR has not been contacted by this person. We will be happy to offer assistance as needed be it through BHRR or my work/education/experience as a PMT and a PMB.

Gwen

This is a mighty good rescue ! :thumbs up And if they can't take her , please contact other rescues in the area. Since your dog isn't spayed , she could end up in a puppy mill if you don't put her into a good rescue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by murraylatham
Right now I'm thinking about contacting Birch Haven Rescue and Rehab (www.birchhaven.org)

PennyC
February 13th, 2008, 06:41 PM
I also have a great pyrenees and he s now a big teddy bear. my fiance has a 3 year old daughetr and Teisan did the same thing to her for the longest time but i have fixed his problem. I did this by alot of socialization and dominace tricks. to start off, i would sudgest feeding her randomly about the house, but instead of just giving her the dish and walking away, feed her out of your hand, this allows the dog to acknowledge that the human hand will not take the food away but geve it to her. as for the dominance i would sudgest to get her spayed and/or change her state of mind. You can do this by throwing a set of keys across the floor. as she begins to growl throw your set of keys and this will distract her from the bad behaviour and get her mind into another era. Also if this does not work you can also get the gentle leader, this device is something i will recommend to everyone. It is a training tool, for aggressive dogs, for impossible to walk dogs, for barking dogs and for the simple things such as sit and lie down. the dog is still able to bite and eat with this on but it sends a message to the dog letting him know that you are the alpha dog because of the head set. It can purchased at any veterinary clinic for 30$ around and must be adjusted appropriately, the technicians at the clinic will aid you in this procedure.all of these things may work they may not,i know they worked for my dog, so if you are willing to keep your dog i would sudgest these things. But one thing you should know is your facts about dogs. Certain dogs are not good with children including the great pyrenees, so b4 you pruchase another dog know what you are getting yourself into plz instead of having the poor animal put into some kind of home like the spca. I know my dog is not good with children but i also know my training technics are very high quality and that they work. Because i have properly trained my dog i know that i do not have anything to worry about with the little one but i also know that he is still a dog and must be under my watch at all times, but one thing i guarantee you is that he would never EVER snap at me under any cercumstances. Just do your research

Lyndzey20
May 20th, 2009, 09:19 PM
I have a Male Great Pyrenees..He is almost 9 months now. He is an alpha male and we went through similar problems with him. It sounds to me like yours thinks she is Queen of the house. Since, the pyr is naturally an independant thinker, you must provide clear guidelines or they prefer to make their own rules. She is just a dominant dog and needs some guidance. This is what I would do: Make sure that you are always the leader..go through all doorways before her. Make sure she knows that you decide when to go not her. When you go for walks ..use obsticles like trees and poles..go around them quickly and you should catch her on some and make sure that when she pulls the other way that you stand your ground. Eventually she will come your way and then you win. This gets the dogs attention on you as a leader. I would also make her wait for her food. Put it in the bowl, hold it and tell her to wait. Then after she waits put it down. Alpha always eats first in the pack and this way she recognizes you as an alpha because you are deciding when she gets to eat not her. Another thing you could do is, grab her collar on both sides of her neck and apply about 3% more pressure then she is and pin her down..Do this 22 times in a row..repeat this twice a day for 2 weeks straight and guaranteed you will have a different dog by the end of it. Being consistent but gentle is critcal with pyrenees because they are stubborn. They are definetly not for first time owners. They also need alot of stimulation, especially when they are puppies and that could also be part of your problem. It is a lot of work but the Pyr is truly a wonderful breed!

MommaKat
May 20th, 2009, 09:47 PM
This thread was from a year ago, I'm sure the OP has either already got help for the dog or given her up .

kandy
May 21st, 2009, 12:15 PM
Another thing you could do is, grab her collar on both sides of her neck and apply about 3% more pressure then she is and pin her down..Do this 22 times in a row..

This type of technique could seriously backfire and cause even more problems.

jakhi
May 22nd, 2009, 10:29 AM
as for the dominance i would sudgest to get her spayed and/or change her state of mind.

I realize that this is basically a dead thread, but i had to comment on this.

There is now research to support not neutering giant breeds until they have matured more. Somewhere between 12-16 months is more appropriate. If you neuter early it may exacerbate an existing joint problem such as dysplasia. (sp)

In any case for a giant breed dog at 6 months they are not producing the hormones that a smaller dog would at that age. There is no dominance challenging that you would see in a 'teenage' dog, because she hasn't hit that developmental stage.

I'm not saying that aggression isn't a problem, I'm just saying that sometimes it's not as easy as just getting the dog neutered.

Lyndzey20
May 27th, 2009, 10:21 AM
Actually, I work with an extremely great trainer. He is a celebrity now. And pinning a dog doesn't back fire. I know what the Pyrenees are like because I have one. Because of all our training he is now an amazing dog. When you pin a dog it just asserts to them that you are the boss and it actually makes your dog less stressed in the end. Most dogs do not want to be the alpha but there always has to be an alpha so the dog will automatically take that role if you don't. Pinning is only to be used in extreme cases and it does work. With a Pyr, you have to be in control at a very young age because of their size. My pyr is just over 8 months now and he is over 100lbs. Dominance actually starts from the day a pup is born. It is like an instinct. The pups form their hierarchy right away between their litter mates. Dominance is just another word for being an alpha. Bigger breeds to recieve their hormones at around the same time as regular sized breeds. If you get them fixed way too young they may develop problems with their hips in the future but if you get them fixed way too late they have an increased chance of getting prostate cancer (for males).

Mat&Murph
May 27th, 2009, 10:34 AM
I have 2 giant breed dogs both males, They are not neutered yet as they are 14 months and I was told to wait till they were at least 18 months befor fixing them because of health problems due to their size.
Anyways, I have never had to pin my boys, I have always used distraction and or verbal commands to be "alpha" in my home. My guys are between 155 lbs to 165 lbs. They play fight but when they get serious they are separated and both made to do a sit stay till they calm down (generally a couple mins)

Chris21711
May 27th, 2009, 10:50 AM
Lyndzey20 - you are entitled to your opinion, as each one of us is, but I disagree with you entirely...

We had the pleasure of a Pyr living in our home for almost 11 years, full grown she weighed 150lbs (very large for a female) she was the boss of the other guys in our house, but never, never did we have to stoop to agressive training with her.

sugarcatmom
May 27th, 2009, 01:29 PM
Actually, I work with an extremely great trainer. He is a celebrity now.

Big whoop.

Here's a little tidbit for you to read: http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/alpha-roll-or-alpha-role

If you’re a dog owner, you might have seen television shows or read books that recommend a technique called the “alpha roll.” This old-fashioned method for “showing the dog who’s boss” or punishing a dog for bad behavior consists of forcing the dog onto his back. Once there, variations include standing over the dog, staring at him, growling at him, or simply pinning him until he “submits” and stops struggling.

Proponents of the alpha roll claim it helps dogs to understand who is the leader. The maneuver is based on what wolves do to each other, they explain. As it turns out, the original information about wolves “alpha rolling” each other was based on observational data gathered from a study of wolves that was later disproved. On a personal note, in addition to being a professional dog trainer, my background includes working with wolves and wolfdog mixes at a rescue sanctuary. In my fifteen-plus years spent with these animals, I never once saw one force another onto its back to prove dominance. What I have seen is one wolf look at another and curl a lip ever so slightly; that tiny, subtle signal was enough to start the other wolf angling his head and body away. If that lip curl turned into an agonistic pucker (that National Geographic “look at my pearly whites” expression), growl, snarl, or intensified in any other way, you can bet the wolf on the receiving end would eventually end up on his back—voluntarily. The key word in that explanation is “voluntarily.” If a wolf truly forces another wolf onto its back, it’s not a discussion about rank—it’s an aggressive act that may well result in injury or even death.

Some people believe that dogs view us as other dogs when we perform the alpha roll. Let’s get real. Dogs simply don’t view us as other dogs. (Thank goodness for small favors—that butt-sniffing greeting would get old fast!) But for the sake of argument, let’s say they did; would you really want your dog to be frightened of you, and think that your intention was to cause him harm?

Take it from me, a 5’2” petite woman whose dogs all outweigh her, and who has worked and lived with both dogs and wolves: you can absolutely establish leadership without using physical force. The majority of it is in your demeanor. Some people are natural leaders. They are calm and confident, and when they have something to say, the communication is clear and direct. Think Clint Eastwood. A strong leader does not need to prove a thing, and is certainly not a bully. In fact, the dogs or wolves you see squabbling for rank are the wanna-be alphas, the middle-rankers. With your own dog, be consistent in your rules and boundaries, and keep your verbal communications direct. Use hand signals if your dog has been taught what they mean, but keep other gestures to a minimum so as not to confuse him.

Control the resources—food, treats, toys, access to walks, and anything else your dog finds valuable—and ask him to do something to earn each one, even if it’s a simple sit. If your dog does something you don’t like, respond appropriately. That might mean he gets a time out for nipping at your child’s pants leg, or, if he’s vying for your attention by jumping up, you simply ignore him. What those responses have in common is they teach dogs that those tactics simply don’t work, which results in the unwanted behavior happening less often. They also don’t include a human scaring the dog by physically manhandling him.

By taking the alpha role rather than using the alpha roll and other strong-arm tactics, you will earn your dog’s trust and respect, and enhance the bond between you.

kandy
May 27th, 2009, 04:14 PM
I also have a giant breed - newfoundlands. I also grew up with St. Bernards, Rotti's, GSD's and Great Danes. Never have I had to pin down a dog to establish who the boss is. I prefer positive training methods that allow my dog the chance to do what I want because they want to, not because they fear the consequences if they don't.

Frenchy
May 27th, 2009, 07:13 PM
Actually, I work with an extremely great trainer. He is a celebrity now.

Big whoop.



:laughing: thank you for this comment sugarcatmom :laughing:

pining down a dog .... omg .... what's next ? shock collars ? :rolleyes:

lUvMyLaB<3
May 27th, 2009, 09:12 PM
grabbing the neck and pinning a dog that is a giant dog and already exhibiting agressive behavior? Does not sound like something that should be attempted.. i truly do not like forceful aggressive training, but this could be dangerous! i weigh less than most pyr's! Don't think it would be a smart move on my part! I also don't think it proves anything, and not something I would be proud of.

I think it can be avioded if people would just research the breed, and spend time training and socializing from the start, and treating a dog as part of the family they way it should be, not locking them in a room for 23 hours a day and expecting them to be the perfect companion for the other hour...

Big whoop! Hehee sugarcat! u funny! but ohhh sooo true!!!

Mat&Murph
May 27th, 2009, 09:25 PM
grabbing the neck and pinning a dog that is a giant dog and already exhibiting agressive behavior? Does not sound like something that should be attempted.. i truly do not like forceful aggressive training, but this could be dangerous! i weigh less than most pyr's! Don't think it would be a smart move on my part! I also don't think it proves anything, and not something I would be proud of.

I think it can be avioded if people would just research the breed, and spend time training and socializing from the start, and treating a dog as part of the family they way it should be, not locking them in a room for 23 hours a day and expecting them to be the perfect companion for the other hour...

Big whoop! Hehee sugarcat! u funny! but ohhh sooo true!!!
you said it!!!! The words right out of my mouth!!! WTG

JennieV
May 27th, 2009, 09:51 PM
I just want to respond to this and add my opinion on the whole pin-down thing.

I don't care who you are, I don't care who the trainer is. I will NOT recommend going to attempt to grab a growling, obviously distraught large-breed or small-breed dog and try to pin it down. If I do - I am inviting TROUBLE. most dogs will tolerate this behaviour and some dogs will snap or worse. Not only that, but by doing so, you leave your face open. And what if your child sees you and decides to try this technique on the next dog?

What I would like to understand is how people just go and trust one person. so he's a celebrity - WOOHOO.. Amazing. Lots of celebrities do drugs, will you follow suit? or make your child follow suit? Why would this be any different?

:shrug:

And in regards to the OP - we don't know the half of it, I suspect. I know my dog used to get defensive when my mom was screaming at my brother and me, and then she'd place herself in between my mom and us.. Who knows why the dog was growling. I think that if a person from the get-go didn't want to be involved in rectifying the situation - they probably didn't deserve the dog to begin with. Sad. I wish we could find out whatever happened to the poor puppy.

luckypenny
May 27th, 2009, 10:32 PM
I'm so relieved to see so many responses disagreeing with these abusive methods. I always wonder what could happen if a visitor, simply seeking ideas on dealing with aggressive dogs, follows such dangerous advice *shudders.*

MommaKat
May 28th, 2009, 12:13 AM
I'm so relieved to see so many responses disagreeing with these abusive methods. I always wonder what could happen if a visitor, simply seeking ideas on dealing with aggressive dogs, follows such dangerous advice *shudders.*

I agree with you completely LP . Alpha rolling/Pinning a dog is so controversial and potentially dangerous . I'm sick of it being recommended so casually on dog forums. The adviser can always hide behind their computer screen with no consequence to them if dog or owner gets hurt.

kandy
May 28th, 2009, 10:15 AM
I agree with you completely LP . Alpha rolling/Pinning a dog is so controversial and potentially dangerous . I'm sick of it being recommended so casually on dog forums. The adviser can always hide behind their computer screen with no consequence to them if dog or owner gets hurt.

Exactly! To recommend this kind of thing to an inexperienced dog owner could spell disaster - both for the person and for the dog! :frustrated:

Lyndzey20
May 28th, 2009, 11:10 AM
Lol, ok I am not here to try and start an argument. I was just sharing a simple technique that has worked for me. You all are entitled to your opinion as well but please don't critisise me and say that I am low. You don't know me or my dogs. So it is very unfair of you to say that. I NEVER said grab the dog while it is growling. This is something to do when the dog is settled down. I have also NEVER thrown my dog on its back to pin him, it is a completely different approach then that. I would NEVER do anything to hurt either one of my dogs! They are like my children. My approach isn't at all negative, I know lots of people who have used it. It is not used to dominate a dog but to make a dog feel secure and able to trust you. My dogs are great. I have only pinned my pyr. I don't need to do it at all anymore. It is a very short term thing. Every dog is different and learns through different techniques. I tryed a lot of things before a found one that worked. My dogs are extremely well behaved. So, it does not promote agression at all if done right. I mentioned the celebrity thing because he is there from his training techniques, that work and celebs on drugs has nothing to do with what I am talking about. I don't have children yet and if I did I would never do that infront of them. I love my dogs and would never have a shock collar, I would never hurt them. They listen to me through non verbal commands because they have respect for me. They are both off leashed trained and I can take them anywhere like that. So, yes it does work and I have NEVER left my dogs on a negative note...always a positive. and yes I agree that probably leaving the dog in a room all day had a lot to do with that dogs agression.

sugarcatmom
May 28th, 2009, 11:25 AM
It is not used to dominate a dog but to make a dog feel secure and able to trust you. .

How does performing what is perceived by dogs as a hostile act (pinning IS dominating!), make them "feel secure and able to trust"? I'm glad things are good with you and your dog, but there are considerably better, more positive ways to go about this. Did you read the little tidbit I quoted for you?

Mat&Murph
May 28th, 2009, 12:12 PM
How does performing what is perceived by dogs as a hostile act (pinning IS dominating!), make them "feel secure and able to trust"? I'm glad things are good with you and your dog, but there are considerably better, more positive ways to go about this. Did you read the little tidbit I quoted for you?
I am with you sugarcatmomma, I am curious if you are not pinning them down for correction, then what are you pinning them for at all? I believe their are other methods of building trust between your large breed and you without pinning. IMO

lUvMyLaB<3
May 28th, 2009, 12:47 PM
so the dog is settled then you pin him? I don't get it.. If you did anything when a dog is calm you would get an improvement in behavior and a dog that respect you. You said that you did it 22 times I think I remember.. If anyone got their dog to 'sit' or 'down' 22 times the dog would begin to look at you as an authority.

It is good that you have well behaved dogs, But I don't think it has anything to do with the pinning theory. I have well trained dogs too,so do many many people that have never even thought of doing such a thing, and I have never ever done anything with force, and I refuse to, I don't have a lot of respect for people that do, I would not respect and listen to a trainer that suggested this technique.

I don't get it at all now... so the dog is sitting there calm and behaving and you go grab his neck and pin him to the ground? wha??? I cannot make the connection so I don't think a dog could. I think the dog would think that he just did something terribly bad, how could he connect it? He is sitting there and then the big mean pack leader comes over and shows him with force who the dominant one is? This is definitely not the training methods for me.