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California debating mandatory spay/neuter

BobbyGirl
January 31st, 2008, 03:44 PM
http://dogtime.com/spay-neuter-bill-end-to-homeless-pets.html

chico2
January 31st, 2008, 03:58 PM
Bobby-Girl,I think that is a great idea,long over-due...maybe if the vets spay/neuter all animals,they could keep the prices lower.
No shelter should ever adopt out an animal in tact.
If nobody bred any animals for a few years,I am sure the shelters would be empty:cat::dog:
But of course it's not as simple as that,there are legit breeders,show-animals etc..

LavenderRott
January 31st, 2008, 04:36 PM
Bobby-Girl,I think that is a great idea,long over-due...maybe if the vets spay/neuter all animals,they could keep the prices lower.
No shelter should ever adopt out an animal in tact.
If nobody bred any animals for a few years,I am sure the shelters would be empty:cat::dog:
But of course it's not as simple as that,there are legit breeders,show-animals etc..

Like sooooo many other knee jerk reaction laws - this sounds ok in theory but won't work like it is intended to. FYI - this bill is supported by PETA and the HSUS. Personally, I think that about says it all.

If memory serves, this bill requires that all animals be altered by the age of 4 months. A dog can not be shown in an AKC or UKC event until the age of 6 months. I know several people in Ca. who enjoy showing their dogs with no desired to breed them. They enjoy the "sport" of it and are very, very careful to assure that their unaltered show dogs DO NOT breed. If this bill passes - they will be unable to enjoy doing this with their dogs.

Again - the onus of this law will fall on the shoulders of already responsible owners. People who keep their dogs in the house, go to classes, make sure their dogs are good canine citizens, vet their dogs every year and make sure their dogs are registered with the city. Irresponsible owners will ignore this law just as they ignore everything else about responsible dog ownership.

Here is a thought - how about passing a law that says every animal that is adopted from a shelter or rescue group or bought from a pet shop must be spayed or neutered before going to their new home? Want to by a petshop puppy? Great! As soon as you provide the pet shop with a reciept for non refundable alteration cost you may take your pet home.

happycats
January 31st, 2008, 05:19 PM
I think it's a great idea, and long overdue, I wish Canada would adopt this law!!
As for not being able, to show a dog, I understand what your saying LR, but it's about time the AKC, UKC CKC all do their part in controling the pet overpopulation and allow altered dog's to show??!! For an institution that professes to love dogs , it's about time they do something for all dogs!

LavenderRott
January 31st, 2008, 05:40 PM
I think it's a great idea, and long overdue, I wish Canada would adopt this law!!
As for not being able, to show a dog, I understand what your saying LR, but it's about time the AKC, UKC CKC all do their part in controling the pet overpopulation and allow altered dog's to show??!! For an institution that professes to love dogs , it's about time they do something for all dogs!

ETHICAL BREEDERS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM! Until people begin to understand that backyard breeders and puppymillers are the problem and take steps to eliminate those issues, there is no solution that will work. Add to that irresponsible people who let their unvetted, untrained dogs running loose who really don't give a fat darn about any animal laws and you have your problem.

The only venue that AKC, UKC and the CKC require that the dog be unaltered is conformation. The reason for this is such - the purpose of conformation is to compare dogs to see how they meet the standard, the very first step in making sure that a dog could be used to breed and continue the breed as it is. Putting a Championship on a dog does not mean that you HAVE to breed it.

Answer me this though - if mandatory spay neuter laws are passed from coast to coast in North America, and every single dog is actually spayed/neutered, where would my now ten year old child go to get a dog for his family as an adult?

happycats
January 31st, 2008, 06:14 PM
Once the pet population is finally in check and there are no longer any in pounds and rescues, then I think the next step would be to require people who want to breed to apply for a license to breed. Or before the ban have repetuable breeders apply for a license.
The license should require certain things, like what breed, what is your purpose for breeding, and have these breeders inspected on a regular basis.
Also limit the amount of certain breeds in certain areas. for instance I live in Oshawa. If for example 100 people apply for a breeding license to breed Lab's they will only allow 5, and so on for each specific breed, to uensure there is no abundance of any one breed.

LavenderRott
January 31st, 2008, 06:35 PM
Once the pet population is finally in check and there are no longer any in pounds and rescues, then I think the next step would be to require people who want to breed to apply for a license to breed. Or before the ban have repetuable breeders apply for a license.
The license should require certain things, like what breed, what is your purpose for breeding, and have these breeders inspected on a regular basis.
Also limit the amount of certain breeds in certain areas. for instance I live in Oshawa. If for example 100 people apply for a breeding license to breed Lab's they will only allow 5, and so on for each specific breed, to uensure there is no abundance of any one breed.

Ok.

Let's look at this.

If you wait until the pet population is finally in check to "allow" breeding again - what do you do about those large breed dogs with a life expectancy of about 10 years. By the time you are willing to "allow" breeding again - you are talking about breeding senior bitches!

Or if you allow "reputable (I prefer the term ethical - the meaning in my mind is VASTLY different) who gets to decide what an ethical breeder is? While you and I have a very specific idea of what that is (probably the only thing we have agreed on in a while :D) I can promise you that the puppymill industry is VERY well funded and has a hell of a lot more lobbyists then ethical breeders do.

What is really so wrong with the suggestion that I had in my earlier post? Require that all dogs adopted from shelters and "rescues" be spayed/neutered before leaving the shelter or foster home. Require that all puppies purchased at pet shops be altered before leaving the pet shop. THIS WILL put a serious decline in the pet over population problem. And if you think that all shelters and rescues require this already - I can promise you, you are mistaken. I am sure that if I looked (and I have a headache and really don't want to right this second) I could find a dozen shelters in the State of Michigan alone that will not only adopt out an intact dog - but they will do it for about $20.

I agree 100% that there is a pet overpopulation problem. I agree that something needs to be done. But I don't believe that passing a law that will only be obeyed by responsible people who either show their dogs (and alter those that will not be used for breeding to better the breed) or have already altered pets.

happycats
January 31st, 2008, 06:53 PM
Ok.

who gets to decide what an ethical breeder is? While you and I have a very specific idea of what that is (probably the only thing we have agreed on in a while :D) What do you mean we don't agree on things:D

I also suggested people "ethical breeders" get a license "before" the ban.

I do agree that all dogs from rescues and shelters be altered,that is definately a great start. But many unfortunately are not funded by government, and depend on donations.

But how do you solve the problem of, for instance if there are 100 ethical Lab breeders in Oshawa? We certainly don't need that many, and you know the more puppies that flood the "market" the more chances are that they end up in shelters and rescues:sad:

I also believe that government should invest in the long term solutions instead of the short term fix, by providing free/ low cost spay and neuter clinics. I'm sure in the long run it would cost far less then what they are paying right now to collect, house, vet, destroy, dispose of unwanted pets:shrug:

Doesn't New Mexico already have this law?, I wonder how it's working for them?

LavenderRott
January 31st, 2008, 07:32 PM
What do you mean we don't agree on things:D

I also suggested people "ethical breeders" get a license "before" the ban.



But again - who gets to decide what is ethical? I am sure that the commercial breeders will tell you that THEY are ethical - after all, they are USDA licensed!

I don't want the government to decide what is ethical when it comes to most things - let alone breeding dogs.

As for limiting the number of breeders of a particular breeder in an area - if you start out with 100 lab breeders in say, a hundred mile radius, how do you decide which 5 people get to breed? And if you eliminate some of the breeders in the less common breeds (and face it - there are twice as many lab puppies registered every year then the number 2 breed, literally!) then you start removing some very important lines from these breeds.

Since we are using Labs as an example - as the number one breed in North America getting a hold of a registered lab pup is soo not a problem. Anybody and everybody with a pair of registered labs thinks that they need to share puppies with all of their uneducated neighbors with a wad of cash burning a hole in their pocket. Add to that registered lab puppies sold every day in pet shops - to people who will also think they should share the lovely temperment of their wonderful dog with their neighbors. Your average backyard breeder will breed their bitch every single time she comes into heat so long as there is a market for those puppies (or she drops dead!). An ethical breeder breeds a bitch twice, maybe three times between the ages of 2 (when OFA's can be done) and 4 or 5.

If you remove Labs that are rescued from shelters and pet shops from the mix - you are making a huge dent in the puppy factory.

The only true solution (besides getting rid of puppymills) to the overpopulation is EDUCATION. People need to be educated about the importance of spaying. You have to convince them to believe as you do. Passing laws that take away rights aren't the answer. We already have a ton of them with consequences that are so inadequate that the laws are ignored.

happycats
January 31st, 2008, 08:13 PM
you have many valid points, and between us I am sure there are ways to stop the overpopulation problem. I think, as my last post sates, that government can end it, if they so chose, y offering free/low cost clinics.

I really don't think education is working, Bob Barker has been telling people for 30+ years to have their pets spayed or nurtered, and I know many others, as well as the many infomercials by HS have also been telling the public to do this, but until people are forced to, they won't IMO.
I believe many people really don't care, and pets are disposable, and wouldn't "waste their money to have their pet fixed, as any believe it is a waste of money. And so what if their dog has pups, becuase they are just
merchandise that they can get $$$ for:sad:

happycats
January 31st, 2008, 08:17 PM
No hard feeling LR, I actually enjoyed trying to solve the pet overpopulation problem with you :) I feel we both have good points and ideas (now if only we could get elected into office to make these changes :D) :highfive:

I must :sleepy: now as 5am comes quick.

Good night, and happy posting :)

sugarcatmom
February 1st, 2008, 01:37 PM
Anyone interested in reading the latest version of this proposed bill can find it here: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/07-08/bill/asm/ab_1601-1650/ab_1634_bill_20070703_amended_sen_v92.html

This bill would prohibit any person from owning or possessing any
cat or dog over the age of 6 months that has not been spayed or
neutered, unless that person possesses an intact permit, as defined.

Doesn't sound like the end of dogs as a species to me.

happycats
February 1st, 2008, 02:23 PM
Anyone interested in reading the latest version of this proposed bill can find it here: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/07-08/bill/asm/ab_1601-1650/ab_1634_bill_20070703_amended_sen_v92.html



Doesn't sound like the end of dogs as a species to me.

I still believe it's a great idea.:thumbs up

Thanks for the update sugarcatmom:)

chico2
February 1st, 2008, 03:30 PM
I agree!
Something HAS to be done to save thousands of healthy animals from getting a deathsentence every year and spay/neuter laws would be a step forward.
Now,we just need someone in our government to have the guts to do something,which won't happen:sad:

Mom_Of_Two_Dogs
February 2nd, 2008, 11:06 PM
In addition to making the average everyday pet owner spay/neuter, I think pet stores and fleamarkets should be prohibited from selling animals (adoption in PetsMart, etc, excluded).

Love4himies
February 4th, 2008, 07:02 AM
Ok.

Let's look at this.

If you wait until the pet population is finally in check to "allow" breeding again - what do you do about those large breed dogs with a life expectancy of about 10 years. By the time you are willing to "allow" breeding again - you are talking about breeding senior bitches!

Or if you allow "reputable (I prefer the term ethical - the meaning in my mind is VASTLY different) who gets to decide what an ethical breeder is? While you and I have a very specific idea of what that is (probably the only thing we have agreed on in a while :D) I can promise you that the puppymill industry is VERY well funded and has a hell of a lot more lobbyists then ethical breeders do.

What is really so wrong with the suggestion that I had in my earlier post? Require that all dogs adopted from shelters and "rescues" be spayed/neutered before leaving the shelter or foster home. Require that all puppies purchased at pet shops be altered before leaving the pet shop. THIS WILL put a serious decline in the pet over population problem. And if you think that all shelters and rescues require this already - I can promise you, you are mistaken. I am sure that if I looked (and I have a headache and really don't want to right this second) I could find a dozen shelters in the State of Michigan alone that will not only adopt out an intact dog - but they will do it for about $20.



You are right, Kingston Humane Society does not have mandatory altering before adoption, Gananoque tries and about 90% are. Cornwall SPCA has mandatory altering

I would be a little worried about the price of pets if this happens through out US/Canada. Cost of items depends on supply and demand and breeders could charge thousands for a dog/cat.

Shelters will never go out of business though, there are always those people who believe animals are disposable, owners get sick/pass away, etc.

Road Runner
February 7th, 2008, 08:11 AM
I think many of you are missing a big point which is missing from the proposed legislation.

I read through the Bill, and I didn't see anything in there which exempts the breeding of dogs or cats as pets. This is an obvious huge mistake as the vast majority of dogs and cats owned in the U.S. are pets.

While I don't have a problem with legislation encouraging mandatory spay and neuter for most individuals, I don't believe everyone who wants to own a pet is going to start taking their dogs to show and competitions.

If someone else who's read that Bill has seen some details which are counter to what I've just stated, please post that information (e.g. section of the Bill).

Otherwise, I'd have to strongly disagree with the Bill in its current wording as it does not address this obvious category (pet ownership). The alternative is we're going to have thousands of "law breakers" breeding pets. That would keep animal control agencies very busy and cause a lot of unnecessary consternation, not to mention drive up the cost of a pet by 2 or 3 times (or more). Imagine paying $10,000 for a purebreed pet.

Most of the Bill is (IMHO) well worded, but this is a glaring exception. Again, if I've missed something please point it out. Thanks. :)

RR

kiara
February 7th, 2008, 11:15 PM
I don't know why people are ready to fight a bill that makes sense to me? If you think you will find vets that will be spaying and neutering your cats and dogs at a low cost, you are dreaming. (No matter where you live!) Vets have studied for 5 years and have to make a living. Many of them do help rescues with that, therefore the more money we save, the more animals can be rescued and adopted. Being a responsible pet owner means that we have to get them spayed/neutered no matter what the cost. If people can't afford veterinary care, they should not have pets. Most of us don't need any laws passed to do this. It is the "other type" of people who break the law and it isn't even in regard to cats or dogs, because that's the type of people they are. Breeders and puppy mills are another story, where does all this end? I really feel sorry for the poor females that are always pregnant, and God only knows really how often? THINK ABOUT IT NEXT TIME YOU BUY A PUREBRED CAT OR DOG?????? And it all has to do with money!!!!! I am excluding good, registered breeders.