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What would you do if your 12 year old refused to go to school

marko
January 30th, 2008, 12:58 PM
Dear members,

Just curious on this one. Some very good friends of ours have a 12 year old that is REFUSING to go to school.

Long story short is that this child has always been way too spoiled and the parents a bit too slack in discipline. Now she is getting older and way more defiant. She will constantly whine, won't do chores, swear vicious profanity at her parents and have huge fights and throw tantrums and even start hitting her parents if she doesn't get her way.

Oh and this behaviour is pretty much reserved for her parents and members of her family. She knows FULL WELL how to behave in the world and in school (when she goes) and is quite charming with everyone else.

So what should these parents do now? They are trying to get professional counselling, but so far it's NOT helping much.

Are they allowed (or should they - they do have jobs as well) to physically drag their kid to school?

When she hits her parents, can her parent's call the police? should they? If they did would the police say - not my problem?

Are there schools in Montreal that LOCK UP kids that defy their parents and skip school in a forced learning environment?

I'd LOVE to get some opinions here. many thanks in advance :grouphug:
Marko

Melinda
January 30th, 2008, 01:17 PM
sounds like a pampered Princess gone wild. Not sure about in Montreal, but where I live we have truancy officers, have the parents call the school to find out what the case is there, have them speak to a school councellor, this serves two purposes, one, it should get them help having someone "escort" her to classes and two , it will help them get in to speak to a family councellor that much faster.

They need help and they need it now, I would start taking away privileges, dvd players, computer, tv etc that she has in her room. in fact, I think I'd strip the room bare. Only allowing her things back when she earns them, have a list of ways she could earn them, for example, chores, dishes, setting the table, dusting etc...for the larger items like her tv, I'd suggest a week of school attendance...she will hold off at first and as long as the parents can stand fast then she may come around, but she definately needs councelling.

Ford Girl
January 30th, 2008, 01:18 PM
I am not a mom but I do have a teaching degree and have studied behavior so I will put my :2cents: in. :)

My first thought was to say "ok, if you are done with school then you need to work"...it could be around the house and yard, family or relatives...to earn what she has. Take away all her belongings and as payment for her job, she gets them back. In the real world you either go to school or you work. You work to provide shelter, food, clothes, etc...make her earn it. You don't just get a cushy room, new clothes and 3 meals a day. I mean clean out her room, all of it, leave a matress on the floor. Stop cooking for her. (within reason obviously - no saying starve the kid, but her parents work for the food right?) But mean what you say and do. That's real life. She didn't buy any of it, it's not her, plates of food don't fall from the sky, if her parents really want to take control - they need to take control of the things they DO control. It may sound harsh but hitting, cursing and plain out disrespecting your parents is unacceptable. :shrug:

BUT...

By the sounds of things, the parents are/were at the root of the problem? Are they getting councelling for themselves as well as the daughter? They were slack and now they have threatened one too many times without an actual concequence, she no longer takes them seriously.

Other options - are there family/kid boot camp type places in your city? I know they have it here, programs that teach the parents skills, the kids proper social skills and responsibilities, and enforce consequences. As for calling the police, I would start there if the whole get a job doesn't work. Not to call and report an assult, but to see if they have preventive programs or if they can come scare the kid...I bet they have something that helps troubled youth.

What is the school's policy on truentcy? They must have consequences?

She needs a real dose of reality. 12 is young, and if it was just a refusal to get out of bed on time for school - that's one thing, but hitting and cursing and fighting...at 12, you don't have a choice when you are 12. Just my thoughts. :shrug:

Ford Girl
January 30th, 2008, 01:21 PM
sounds like a pampered Princess gone wild. Not sure about in Montreal, but where I live we have truancy officers, have the parents call the school to find out what the case is there, have them speak to a school councellor, this serves two purposes, one, it should get them help having someone "escort" her to classes and two , it will help them get in to speak to a family councellor that much faster.

They need help and they need it now, I would start taking away privileges, dvd players, computer, tv etc that she has in her room. in fact, I think I'd strip the room bare. Only allowing her things back when she earns them, have a list of ways she could earn them, for example, chores, dishes, setting the table, dusting etc...for the larger items like her tv, I'd suggest a week of school attendance...she will hold off at first and as long as the parents can stand fast then she may come around, but she definately needs councelling.

:laughing: That's what I said too! My mom use to take laundry baskets of clothes away from us if we didn't put the clean clothes away in a certain time frame...big deal at first - until my sister got all my clothes. :sad: :laughing:

BusterBoo
January 30th, 2008, 01:34 PM
That is a tough situation and no easy/quick answer for sure! If this little girl is a pampered princess, then definitely take away ALL of her worldly possessions and make her earn them back.

IMO, I would try not calling the police until it is completely necessary (no hope left!). I would be worried that Social Services would become involved and depending where you live, they could "suggest" that the girl be removed from the home and placed in a Foster home. OK...maybe that's extreme but :shrug:

Definitely counselling, school meetings, more counselling, they have to find out WHY she doesn't want to go to school. Is she being bullied and is afraid to go but doesn't want to show it? Did something happen at school to make her skip classes? Does she hang out with other 12 yr olds who are doing the same thing?

Sorry, no real answers.....but it is a serious problem. :2cents:

CearaQC
January 30th, 2008, 01:42 PM
Take her away from the city in the summer for a couple of months where there is no TV, no phone, no video games, no electronic music, no mp3 players, no cell phones... yadda yadda yadda Heck, how about no electricity - period.

Ideally, have her go to a place where she has to work and earn her way, or she gets nothing. Sort of a boot camp, but back to nature.

Help garden to have food to eat, cook and clean up in the kitchen, do her own laundry.

Many times people have simply lost their contact with nature and live in a bubble. Not literally of course. :laughing: But sort of an information bubble, where they only think about the latest fashion, DVD, movie at the theatre, and gossip about what everyone else is doing.

They've lost the ability to be human, and as a result they are clueless who they are, why they exist, and uncertain about their place and purpose in the world. So getting away from civilization and the hustle and bustle of this electronic world forces a person to reflect and do some soul searching where lots of emotional healing can finally take place. It's easy to hide from those nagging feelings inside when we have so much to distract us and ultimately it's like sweeping dirt under the rug. After a while, the rug gets lumpy and the problems will spill out and can no longer remain hidden. That is when people usually act out.

Ultimately it's a spiritual problem, not a behavioral one - in my opinion. (Not to be confused with "religion," for it's nothing more than indoctrination.)

I sense she's just feeling a bit lost, and misbehaving is her way of letting off some steam. She seems to be crying out for some quiet time but doesn't really know it yet. It would be a shame to invite the government into her life at this point - or worse, introduce medication. Maybe school is too hard, or maybe it's boring her to tears because she's intelligent and not allowed to show it. Because public schooling is in a way also indoctrination and a cookie cutter system of learning that they want all kids to adhere to.

I would advise the parents to not treat the symptoms, but to dive in together with love and support to find the causes of her troubles.

krdahmer
January 30th, 2008, 01:44 PM
Wow that sounds like an episode of Dr. Phil! Ford and Melinda have great suggestions.... regardless of whether they started it by spoiling the girl or not, it falls also on them to remedy the situation. And because the behaviour is extreme, the solution must also be (within reason of course). I think that matress on the floor is a good place to start. No allowance, 0 priveledges (like phones/computer/tv). If she has to earn them back she may learn to appreciate how easy she does have it. They could also look into someone who speaks to teens about education etc ('living in a van down by the river' just popped into my head there... :rip: Mr. Farley)... maybe seeing someone who regrets and lived through the consequences of dropping out may open her eyes a bit.

And I would add that once the current behaviour is curbed (the violence and swearing and not going to school)... that they keep up with the strict environment to ensure it doesn't happen again. And then... work on the sensitive issues that lead to the situation.

Seriously... at 12... must be a girl thing.... I challenged my mom once...once... at 12... and then never again! :rolleyes::laughing: Took her all of 10 minutes to scare me straight. (I love my mommy... she always had the tricks! and the 'look' of course.:lovestruck:)

marko
January 30th, 2008, 01:49 PM
Thanks for the replies thus far! :grouphug:

Please keep em coming and I'll reply again here shortly! Already my own opinions on the matter are very similar to what has been suggested.

anyone know the laws on spanking here in Quebec. I have no kids but if one of my kids tried to hit or punch me..i think I would put them over my knee and whack their butt till it was good and red...EVEN if they were 12.

Best!
Marko

jessi76
January 30th, 2008, 01:52 PM
sounds to me like not going to school is the least of the problems. she had to LEARN that behavior from somewhere/someone. cursing, hitting, disrespecting, whining, etc... it's things like this that need to be addressed when the child is young and is learning how to interact with others & the world around them. only now, now that she's refusing to go to school, the parents are seeking help? they should of gotten help LONG ago. I find it hard to believe there were not any red flags along the way.

yes, I'd drag her spoiled arse to school. and when she got home, her room would be stripped to bare essentials.. bed, basic clothes, shoes. no computer, no phone, no cell, no tv, etc... no afterschool activites, no rides to ANYWHERE (except to/from school), nothing.

choices have consequences and it's about time she learned that.

tonkamcd
January 30th, 2008, 01:58 PM
ummmm Call Super Nanny ?? actually i would just take some pages out of her book, (not sure if everyone else is familiar with the show or not) but most of the times (as far as that show goes) it has been issues with the parents that have resulted in inappropriate and extreme behaviour in their children. Same as when you "raise" a dog, you have to insist on respect from your child (whether its two or four legged) and at that age I wonder how many parents actually have good communication skills with their children, not just telling their kids what to do, do your home work etc, but spending quality time with the child. Sometimes parents need to revamp their lifestyle, especially if both of them are working, to properly raise a child/children.

CearaQC
January 30th, 2008, 02:04 PM
I remember being 12 and acting out.

Speaking from personal experience, there are ways to get around that kind of treatment where parents take away everything except the bed and clothes. All my parents wanted to do was spank me and yell at me and never wanted to treat me like an individual. All my ideas were stupid and not worth my while, or so they kept telling me. I would take home report cards of five As and one B and was told, "you could have done better." HUH??? And still today I feel I can never do enough to please either of my parents. So I officially gave up a few years ago and don't even bother trying any more. But I have a nasty case of "fear of failure" that nags me still.

I was sooo sneaky and would plan and devise ways of getting around my strict parents who didn't let me do squat as a pre-teen or even as a teenager. I became very good at it and at one point spent the whole summer sneaking out every single night after I heard my parents begin to snore and would go out and have my fun anyway. It took a couple of months of well-planned moves before I got caught.

So if the girl's parents decide to use one of those methods, they should be prepared for the sneaky behavior and plan accordingly.

That's why the "back to nature" thing is best, because it's a whole new way of doing things totally away from the home environment and bound to do better than just taking stuff away and confining to the home which may only create resentment and solve nothing.

Just my opinion.

want4rain
January 30th, 2008, 02:44 PM
hmmm... here in the USA, 13 is a really magic number. its the 'almost adult' number, i believe we have even had cases where children have made the choice to divorce their parents by then. spanking may backfire. :) although im all for it when nothing else works. its not often in this house but when it does, its for a good reason.

im with the rest of them about taking away everything and the parents getting counseling also. love goes a long way and giving your child everything they want isnt love. they need to start at the bottom and work their way back up. all three of them.

-ashley

badger
January 30th, 2008, 03:05 PM
Has the daughter ever been assessed by a psychologist with experience treating children and adolescents? Unexplained anger in such a young person may be a sign of depression. The fact that they have been 'too lenient' with her would be irrelevant. I don't want to 'pathologize' her, but depression is now being seen in children as young as seven.

Luba
January 30th, 2008, 03:06 PM
I think just saying the child is spoiled and blame the parents may be too easy of a response. Many children that are spoiled still attend school, in fact I know most schools are full of them. :laughing:

There could be something else going on with the girl, she may be confused at school, could be afraid of someone, maybe someone is picking on her and she doesn't know how to cope, feels safer at home.

For girls (different then boys) at this age of 12/13 many girls are starting to change 'physically' and emotionally. Hormones 'do' play a big part in what happens with decisions at this age.

Even a one off incident of a girl getting her period at school or her pants getting soiled can turn into a big nightmare. The kid stops going to school for fear of being teased. They often won't tell the parents or share what happened , because kids keep a lot to themselves for various reasons.


Then there is the matter of diet and all the crap that is in our food today. How much is having an impact on mood and physiological changes. Hormones in the meat and dairy, sugar, preservatives, colourings, dyes, flavourings. If someone is sensitive to these it can produce any number of responses in the body. Often this is overlooked by parents and doctors, but there are various studies and patients (including myself) who will tell you for a fact that what you eat effects your mood. I'll give you an example, for someone that has a sensitivity to a certain preservative or flavouring, you can give that to them and within minutes (Especially children) you can see a personality change.

Instead of changing a diet and eating healthy organic foods it's easier to blame the kid or the parents for something else and then off to counselling, psychiatrists and of course DRUGS.

I say, look at all the alternatives first. The 'real' problem may be something that nobody has even thought of.


This dr is fantastic, maybe his staff will know of someone of his calibre in the Quebec area:

http://www.jaconello.com/doctor.html

Luba
January 30th, 2008, 03:10 PM
When she hits her parents, can her parent's call the police? should they? If they did would the police say - not my problem?


There is a reason she feels unable to control her anger and temperment and my guess like said above that there could be something hormonally wrong that is being triggered by diet.

She may have poor self control, could have a mild form of autism, who knows. Maybe she's now suffering from some vaccine reaction she was given. Lots of things here to think about Marko and I hope the family gets to the bottom of it.

I hope she doesn't end up in group/foster care. For sure she'll be drugged up there and more then likely face the possibilty of abuse. God bless the child....I'll pray for her. :pray:



Edited to add:
is it just me and my computer or is forum wanky acting up today? oh well.

BusterBoo
January 30th, 2008, 03:26 PM
Don't mean to threadjack but.......

what happened to children respecting their parents???? I am (gulp....) going to be 55 yrs old in March, I have two kids (ages 34 and 28) who never would have sworn at me, hit me or disrespected me! I pretty much brought them up alone and they have turned into fine successful adults!

I still to this day will not say Sh$t in front of my Dad! Dad never raised a hand to me, all he had to do was give me the "look" and say my name. That was enough to make me settle down and behave.

At what point did parents loose control??? :shrug:

:sorry: for going off on a rant....

Gibbons
January 30th, 2008, 04:23 PM
I'm not sure how useful this will be, but... here goes!

I know a kid- now 21- who has ADD, ADHD, Ausburgers, and dyslexia. School was a horror show for him, and he skipped class more than anything and ended up dropping out when he was 15, much to his parent's horror. They tried forcing, coercing, yelling, arguing, taking away everything he had, etc and he would go, act out, and get kicked out of class. He'd come home every day smirking about it- you made me go, and look what happened!

He also got into the acting out- yelling, swearing, hitting (not people, but walls), disappearing in the middle of the night, etc. They tried calling the police (he got a reputation as a tough guy- he loved it!), sent him to a group home (where he learned the joys of marijuana), and eventually brought him back and said "fine, you pay rent then!" and ignored all of his other behaviours.

Eventually the acting-out got boring and he was too exhausted from working (he did construction, GREAT for ADD kids- all that manual labour!)

Now at 21 he's working hard on his high school equivilancy. He's picked the college program he wants to go into. He is ridiculously helpful around the house, has great friends, is mature and responsible, etc. As an example, one of his close friends died recently. He organized a community "thing" to visit the parents, provide food, do all the chores around the farm, and helped to organize most of the funeral - the parents had totally disconnected from everything and were barely functioning.

So maybe this isn't too comforting now- but if the kid is at the point where they just do NOT CARE at all, no amount of "tough love" or forcing school will work. But in a lot of kids, if they know their parents love them and they always have a place to come home too, they sort themselves out eventually.

rainbow
January 30th, 2008, 04:52 PM
There could be something else going on with the girl, she may be confused at school, could be afraid of someone, maybe someone is picking on her and she doesn't know how to cope, feels safer at home.


I also thought of this as bullying at school is quite common. Have her parents asked her if this is happening?

Another possibility is that she has started using drugs and/or alcohol and this is affecting her behaviour.

Whatever the problem is, something needs to be done about it now, as it will only get worse.

happycats
January 30th, 2008, 05:19 PM
I would tell her either you go to school all on your own, or I will take you to school............And if I have to take you to school I will hold your hand and walk you to all your classes!!! :evil:


When I was a teen and I started skipping school, my mother threatened to come to my school and tap dance in her wooden shoes in the main entrance, if I didn't get my arse there:eek:!!! And I believed her because I knew she would, so I went to school.:o

Masha
January 30th, 2008, 08:20 PM
When I was a teen and I started skipping school, my mother threatened to come to my school and tap dance in her wooden shoes in the main entrance, if I didn't get my arse there:eek:!!! And I believed her because I knew she would, so I went to school.:o

:laughing::laughing::laughing: Now thats a clever way of getting your kids to go to school!! I will make a note of this one if me and hubby ever decide to have kids.....

happycats
January 30th, 2008, 08:29 PM
:laughing::laughing::laughing: Now thats a clever way of getting your kids to go to school!! I will make a note of this one if me and hubby ever decide to have kids.....

OMG I would have been mortified, could you picture this crazy little dutch women tap dancing in your school!!??

I believe the threat of embarassment is probably the most effective way to deal with these out of control teens:shrug::D

mona_b
January 30th, 2008, 08:39 PM
There is a reason she doesn't want to go.And the parents have to get to the root of it.

Have the parents talked to any one at her school.Have they tried to sit down and talk to HER?..She is lashing out for a reason.

I have a 20 year old daughter and I have raised her on my own.She does suffer from depression.But so do I and my sister.That was inheriteded from my Mother.I always said I would be the mother mine wasn't.I always let my daughter express her feelings to me.Doesn't matter what it is.

If she came home from school and went straight to her room,I waited a while.I wanted her to have her time.Then I went in to listen to what was on her mind.

I'm sorry to say,but there are parents out there who will not let their children"voice" what's on their mind.At times parents speak for them.Parents need to listen to what their kids have to say.They need to be reassured that they can tell you ANYTHING.The worse thing is for a child to bottle things up inside.Cause when they do,they WILL lash out.

Sorry for the long shpeal......LOL

growler~GateKeeper
January 31st, 2008, 12:30 AM
In addition to all the good suggestions for what to do to get the child back to respecting her parents..I think the parents need parental counciling they need to be shown what they have done wrong & not to blame everything on the child. Yes obviously the child is wrong in her actions regarding this but so are the parents.

My parents neighbours have 2 teenage sons - the youngest is 15 & one day decided he was not going to go to school anymore - his father told him if he's not in school he'll need to get a job, so he got a part time job @ a fast food joint. This teenage boy still sucks his thumb when he is upset, bored or any situtation regardless of who is around - he's a momma's boy & has always gotten what he wanted. His older brother couldn't fully read up to his age level until he was in grade 3 partially because his brother did it for him & his parents didn't get him the help he needed, another example of too lenient parenting. :rolleyes:

marko
January 31st, 2008, 07:12 AM
Thanks SO much for all this insight! :grouphug:
Out of respect to the family I'm not going to get too personal here but I just wanted to add the girl is choosing Not to go to school because on given days she has not done her homework or hasn't studied for a test. She will lie to her parent's face about finishing homework then refuse to go to school the following day after the parents find out there was a test.

There is no bullying going on in the school. This is a POPULAR girl in school and IMO there is no ADD or ANY learning disorder. This kid is smart and even has a witty sarcastic side. I know this family well there is NO abuse from parent to child, definitely no neglect. This girl is lazy! She is smart...but soooo lazy about school, chores - everything. She will choose to stay in her room ALL DAY instead of doing a 2 minute chore.

- and again she only acts out with her parents and has always acted out with her parents. Yesterday she refused to go again and had another tantrum where she whipped kitten litter all over the kitchen and deliberately tried to let a newly adopted feral kitten that the family is trying to bring indoors - back outdoors. She loves the kitten too - but she opened the door to let the kitten back out deliberately to anger her parents. (Feral kitten is safe inside - didn't want to go back out, Phew)

She is truly charming with others.

Thanks again everyone - any further comments are so appreciated but I'm not sure I'll add any additional information to this thread.

One question though - should I point the parents to this thread?

Thx again!
:grouphug:

luckypenny
January 31st, 2008, 07:23 AM
Marko, a swat or two on the butt is not illegal here in Quebec but, IMO, certainly would not be effective with a 12 year old. Her focus would be on what her parents did wrong and not on her own behavior.

FordGirls idea of removing everything of value often works with many children but the parents have to be consistent at all times.

There is a program at the JGHospital that is geared for children and families with similar problems; families being the operative word here. It is a multi-disciplinary approach where psychiatrists, social workers, therapists (incl. art), teachers, etc, work together to evaluate and treat the child and family. It requires a team effort from the child, family, and the school the child attends and is very intensive. Treatment options are designed for the specific needs of the individual child and his or her family.

The MCH, as well as the Douglas Hospital, also have a multi-disciplinary approach to treating children with various behavioral problems. If the parents of this girl feel as if they have lost all control, I think they ought to look into getting some professional support.

Writing4Fun
January 31st, 2008, 07:43 AM
Marko, a friend of mine was having issues with her son at school a couple of years ago (he's 10 now, so he must have been 7 or 8 at the time). Lashing out at the teacher, not wanting to go, not doing the work, foul language, lashing out at his parents, etc... After trying punishments and bribery, they finally decided to have their son tested, with the thought that he had a hidden learning disability. Turns out that not only does he not have a learning disability, he is in fact extremely gifted. The reason for the trouble was because he was bored with school and the work he was being given. They were given the option to advance him a couple of grades, but decided not to because of the social issues involved. So, after many discussions with the teacher, principal and therapist, they kept him in his current grade but adjusted his particular curriculum. They also enrolled him in a few different sports until he found one or two that he actually enjoyed, which got him off the sofa and away from the video games for a few hours a week. :rolleyes: He's certainly not perfect, but at least he's going to school and isn't shouting obscenities at anyone. ;)

badger
January 31st, 2008, 08:09 AM
She desperately needs to win and even when she wins, it has a bitter taste (all day in her room). She's failing at school (or getting by on her native intelligence) and she's failing at home. Why? When you think about it, this is completely self-destructive behaviour, notwithstanding the collateral damage to the family. She hates herself. Why?
I agree with Luckypenny, please have her assessed. Her age suggests this is not ordinary teenage rebellion. If she is not yet self-medicating with cigarettes, alcohol or marijuana, she will.
I feel very sorry for her family, but they should not beat themselves up. Maybe they missed a signal somewhere or could not accept in their own minds that there was something wrong, could only see her defiance. By this time, they are probably a little afraid of her.
They should take every opportunity (but not so much that it loses meaning) to tell her they love her, just those words, no contingent phrases or Oprah-speak.
But they should seize the day.

jessi76
January 31st, 2008, 08:11 AM
but I just wanted to add the girl is choosing Not to go to school because on given days she has not done her homework or hasn't studied for a test. She will lie to her parent's face about finishing homework then refuse to go to school the following day after the parents find out there was a test.

well, common sense should tell the parents to PHYSICALLY CHECK that she has completed her assignments. The parents can get a list of homework from the teacher if need be, and they should take an active part in this girl's schoolwork. reviewing assignments, reviewing completed work, checking the work, and yes, actively studying WITH the child for a test. my parents never just said "go do your homework", instead, they said "lets see what you have for homework tonight" and they took an active part in it. I studied with my mom for all tests, my dad reviewed my reports, and they both checked I wrote out my process for all math, etc... so i don't fully buy the "well she lies" thing. the parents need to step up and not allow the opportunity for lying. I'm sure this girl's teacher's would be more than happy to provide a syllabus or curriculum outline for the parents to follow along with.

This girl is lazy! She is smart...but soooo lazy about school, chores - everything. She will choose to stay in her room ALL DAY instead of doing a 2 minute chore.

sounds like a typical 12 yr old to me, but have they considered a reward program? i.e. I had to do the dishes, vacuum, and dust the house weekly, BUT as a reward my mom took me shopping for "mother/daughter time" almost every saturday morning. I didn't enjoy doing chores, but I always looked forward to shopping time w/ mom, so I did them.

Yesterday she refused to go again and had another tantrum where she whipped kitten litter all over the kitchen

I'd make her clean up every speck of litter, then wash the kitchen top to bottom.

want4rain
January 31st, 2008, 11:57 AM
Originally Posted by marko-
Yesterday she refused to go again and had another tantrum where she whipped kitten litter all over the kitchen

Originally Posted by jessi76
I'd make her clean up every speck of litter, then wash the kitchen top to bottom.

i have to totally agree on the rest of what jessi76 said but with the last bit. in our house only outright dangerous actions that they KNOW are a NO NO get spankings such as the last time Cailyn ran through the house with scissors, gts spankings but had my child slung kitty litter all over the kitchen i wouldnt have hesitated to make sitting painful.

i can honestly say ive probably spanked (with the exclusion of this last week- pencil impaling dangers) Cailyn a total of 6 times in her life. but i can also say she has never, ever disrespected me in such a horrific way.

i think parents get this idea/ideal on how they want to raise their children based off of how they were raised, how they see other children raised and the product of that when a flexibility and understanding of how your kid ticks is far far more important than your ideals. there are so many children and so many different ways children are and soooooo many more ways a parent should respond to those things.

direct the parents here?? i dont know. id think they might develop a complex from the stuff here. :) maybe they should get a squirt bottle?? squirt her right in the face every time she acts up. works for the cats! :laughing: i also totally agree with having her health checked(thyroid, diabetes, hormonal imbalance etc), cutting out any sort of negative foods (talk to a holistic Dr about those) and working with a very intense therapist as a WHOLE family.

-ashley

crochetdiva
January 31st, 2008, 02:43 PM
OMGosh! Been there, lived that...survived it! My daughter was 13 when all hell broke loose. She ran away a few times (just about put me in the psych ward over that) and wouldn't go to school....or would go and then take off.
Our counsellor told us that the front lobe of the brain of a 13 year old is just under developed and no matter how you want to reason with them they just don't get it.
I wanted to send her to a discipline school but couldn't afford it. It just took time and tough love. She eventually outgrew it and went on to have a baby, finish highschool, get married, get divorced, and is about to graduate college as a nurse. But I tell you there were many a night that I didn't think I would see this day.

I don't think there is enough help out there....or we just didn't find it. My daughter had been sexually abused after one episode of running away to live with her father. The person was charged and only then did we find out. The sexual abuse counselling helped so much. But it still took time to work it out, and at severe costs to the rest of the family.

My daughter watched the movie "thirteen" a few years ago and then phoned me and told me she was "so sorry" for what she put me through.

I wish the family well, and my heart goes out to them.

jessi76
January 31st, 2008, 02:47 PM
maybe they should get a squirt bottle?? squirt her right in the face every time she acts up. works for the cats! :laughing:

LOL!!! omg, I'm going to remember that one! best advice, ever.

Stacer
January 31st, 2008, 03:37 PM
I'm not qualified to give any advice as I don't have any children, but I had to chuckle at the squirt bottle suggestion! It might just work! :laughing:

Reading this makes me wonder about having kids, there's no guarantee that they'll turn out to be nice, well adjusted people.

Good luck to the parents.

jesse's mommy
January 31st, 2008, 08:15 PM
I too am not qualified to give any advice because I don't have children either, but I was wondering if this would be one of the few cases where a shock collar would be beneficial?

joeysmama
January 31st, 2008, 11:32 PM
I don't want to say that I'm the perfect parent. (Well I DO want to say it but that wouldn't sound very humble would it?;)) But I do have two children who are now responsible, self sufficient, young adults and I'm as proud as can be of them. My opinion is this.

The parents need to grow a set !!

For Pete's sake the kid is 12. You lay down the law. I'll bet she gets all kinds of priveleges. Take them away.

When my daughter was 12 she decided to get dramatic one day and storm off to her room and slam the door. I yelled and threatened. Ha ! That's not effective. A few days later she tried the prim dona routine again. I waited a few minutes and then I said firmly, "If you ever slam this door again we will take it off the hinges."

You guessed it. A week or so went by and she got in a snit over something and slammed the door. I stayed calm, said nothing and when she came home from school that day she had no door. For 10 days after she had no door. If she wanted privacy she had to change in the bathroom. The bathroom her brother leaves all dirty and smelly.

Another time she was disrespectful in public. Man, that one went down in family history. She was made to go straight home, not out with her friends as planned and came very close to losing her week at church camp. She put in many hours of manual labor that weekend since she wasn't going anywhere. Not only did the child sweeten up but my house was shiny and clean.:laughing:


It's not always fun to do the right thing. I remember not letting my son go to a party that all the "cool kids" were attending but I didn't approve of the underage drinking or the crowd or whatever. It's easier to let your kid go and hope for the best while you enjoy a quiet night without the pouting and complaining.

You can't be afraid of your kids. They need parenting and, in my opinion, your friends are not doing what's best for their child by letting her run the show. They have to stand up to her for her own good !!

FlynnMB
February 1st, 2008, 03:25 PM
I have two teenage boys & the work was put in at a young age, it was hard work, but, anybody who says that bringing up children is easy isn't doing it right. It will be harder at the age of 12, but it is not impossible. Bringing her to a psychologist is only feeding her attention craving, ignoring is the biggest punishment a parent can dish out (without it having long lasting psych. effects).

Calling the police etc. is more attention giving (which gives the child an excuse to throw something in their parent's face in the future - fuel for the teenager is a big no-no).

I remember being 16 (a very long time ago - sadly) & the present day 12 year old goes through the same as I did at 16, (these things are happening earlier & a 16 year old in Ireland - in my time - was like a 12 year old in Great Britian & vice versa).

Having rules & sticking to them is hard work, the parents have to be on board 100% (it will pull every bit of strength out of them, it will be worse than running a marathon) but if they fully put a lot of work in, by listening, negotiating, sticking to rules, sticking to (realistic) punishments, it will work.

They will have to listen to constant whinging, moaning, curses etc. so it will be hard (the usual thing is to start before they have the vocabularly to answer back). I promise it can be done, but with a lot of work & support from friends.

One little story, many years ago my lads were fighting over a toy in the back of the car, I said that if I heard one more word about the toy I would throw it out the window, the row continued & I snatched it from them and threw it out of the moving car (Hubby was driving). Two years later their cousin was staying & the high jinks in the bedroom got unbearable, I went up & said that if it didn't stop their cousin would be sent home first thing, I left the room & the cousin (my sister thinks bringing up her children is someone else's job) started the shenannigans again & I heard my youngest saying "No Daniel shut-up, she means it, she threw our toy out of the car".

If you say it, mean it.

kiara
February 1st, 2008, 04:17 PM
It is very difficult to give this type of advise when you don't know the family. Only professionals can help. We live in a world where everyone loves material things too much and their children's welfare is not their priority. This is not an attack on your friends but a general view of our ways today. Your first two sentences say it all. That her parents spoiled her wrotten and now they don't know what to do! Unless they are short of money, the mother should quit her job now and become a full time parent. This child seems to have very serious problems and this age is very crucial for their daughter. Some children get bored quickly (because they are gifted) and others have to be pushed. Is she hanging around with the wrong type of friends? Maybe she is bullied at school and her parents don't know about it. A lot of children don't open up to their parents. If she wears expensive clothes to school she could be the subject of jealousy? Does she have any hobbies, do they have pets at home that she could be in charge of looking after? They should take her to a pediatrician for a full check-up. She could be undiagnosed with a certain disease. Maybe the child needs psychological help or the whole family needs therapy? I know adults that always want things their way and they must have been this way since childhood. They surely don't have many friends. I don't believe in being a friend to my child, I am their mother and an authority figure. I stayed home and raised my kids. Money was tight, but they always came first. A lot of their school friends were hanging around and lying to their parents. Two got caught stealing money from us, right under our noses. Their parents were working and did not know what they were up to. This happened when they became older teenagers, I was shocked to see that mothers of girls allowed their daughter's boyfriends stay in their house overnight and in their daughter's beds. Females don't learn to respect themselves in their own homes, because their mothers are enablers. Both my husband and I are oldfasioned and none of that would go on in our house. I hope that some of these ideas will help and let us know what happened.

marko
February 3rd, 2008, 05:07 PM
Thanks again for all this great advice, much appreciated and VERY insightful :highfive:

coppperbelle
February 3rd, 2008, 07:02 PM
I'm not sure if I would point the parent to this thread. They need help but from professionals and not from people on a message board. Not that we don't have great advice but I think they will need follow ups etc.. I work in an elementary school and have for many, many years. I have seen all kinds of things and continue to see them daily. The first thing your friends need to know is that they are not alone and should not feel ashamed. Their daughter's problems could be a result of her upbringing, being spoiled or she could have some sort of psychological disorder that makes her the way she is.
Have your friends contacted the child's school? If not, I would suggest that this be their first course of action. The school administration can put them in touch with services either offered through the school board or agencies like the CLSC or local hospitals. They may put them into contact with a social worker who will work with them to get services like family therapy or individual therapy for the daughter if they think it is necessary. The administration could also talk to the daughter and give her a consequence for playing this kind of game.

I have seen it many times before where a child doesn't do the work and then fakes being ill the next day. What works in our school is that the teachers do not allow the child to get away with it and will make them write the exam on their lunch hour or stay in until the assignment is done when they eventually do come back. Unfortunately I know it isn't this way with all schools.

Love4himies
February 6th, 2008, 08:23 AM
I had a daughter like this so I know what the parents are going through. I agree with Joeysmama, they need to teach their daughter self control and respect, and this can be done by 1. taking away privledges and making her earn them back, and

2. follow through with the set consequences 100% of the time.

All three need to be in counselling but it must be with a counsellor that clicks with the whole family. We went through many.

I would also follow up with her doctor, hormones can play huge factors in mood swings.

14+kitties
February 6th, 2008, 10:02 AM
OMG! It disappeared!!! I had all these wise words of wisdom and they aren't here. It said it posted. Wonder what happened. Guess they are somewhere in cyberspace floating around. :(

julieV
February 6th, 2008, 11:18 AM
Hitting is assault period. I think the parents should call the police. Not to charge her but maybe it would scare her enough if she knew her parents weren't going to tolerate that behavior.This kid needs some pretty tough limits set which is probably harder than it sounds with a 12yr old. Good luck to the parents:shrug:

want4rain
February 6th, 2008, 11:52 AM
:sorry: 14+kitties.... not real sure where you were going with your last post???? :o want to clarify??

-ash

14+kitties
February 6th, 2008, 01:16 PM
Ok, let's see if it sticks around this time.
First off Marko - I wouldn't point the parents toward this thread. They may take offense to all of this free advice.
Next - Once all of the possibilities of bullying, abuse, mental issues, and everything else kids face in today's society have been ruled out (and it sounds from what you said it has been) it comes down to the fact that she is a spoiled little lady who needs a kick in the rear to get her going. That said -

It is sometimes easier in these days to show our kids we love them by giving them things instead of making them earn them. "Oh, your friends all have a computer in their room? No problem honey, you can have one too...." that kind of thing. Not saying that this is what the parents do but ....

I would sit down with her, make a list of rules for everyone that she helps with, and post them somewhere where they are seen on a daily basis.
The rules can include consequences for backtalking, hitting, unexceptable behaviour. If a rule is broken then she gets something taken from her. She needs to be aware that will be the consequence before it happens and the parents need to stick to their guns. The kittylitter episode in my house would have meant no phone or computer for a week and she would have been cleaning it up.

As far as the school goes...... Teachers really appreciate parents who get involved with the school and their children. It makes their job so much easier. I would not hesitate to get in touch with her teachers, ask them for homework assignments, ask them to keep in touch with them, and give them permission to keep the little angel in during lunch breaks and recesses to finish uncompleted assignments or missed tests. From what you have said she is a smart cookie and popular. It won't take long for her to figure out that if she wants to stay popular she needs to buckle down. If she is spending her free time in school doing assignments or missed tests she won't be able to be with her friends. If she doesn't want to go to school - take her, make sure she is in her classroom, and then leave. Believe me, she won't miss school too often if her parents did that and they are perfectly within their right to do that.

I am and have always been a no nonsense mom. If I make a rule you don't break it. If you do, you know your consequences before hand. It takes being consistent, consistent, consistent. Kids NEED rules. I have 3 grown children -one who is bipolar and is now working at a stable job for 5 years, one is a qualified teacher although she works for a bank, and one who is going for his chef papers. I have 2 teenage stepsons who are with us 75% of the time. I ran a childcare for 17 years and also did an afterschool program for 4 years. I am not professing to know everything. I have just had scads of experience.

Hopefully this time this will go through. How's that for clarification W4R? :o :D

joeysmama
February 6th, 2008, 04:55 PM
I agree 14+ !!!

Walk her right into school. A little embarassment can go a long way towards smoothing out those rough edges. She needs to suffer some consequences before she'll change her actions.

GSDog
February 6th, 2008, 08:56 PM
Ok, I work for a school board in Montreal and its all the same rules. First talk to the principal and get counselling from the school. Every school has a special ed or counsellor or they will send you one from the school board to that school and will help out the child. I presum this child has just started High School or grade 7 or just finish grade 6. Some kids find school boring but heh, they got no choice to go. In a High School (Montreal maybe elsewhere too) the student has the right of I think like 50ish days per year to take off before a school can do anything. BUT, if you as a parent insist and tells the school you need help and you want them to do something to help you out, they will Im pretty sure. if the school comes up with this crappy story they cant, write a letter to the school and CC it to the Student Services Dept. and CC it also very important to the Director of the school board! Trust me they will move their butts faster. And if you see its too slow, call Youth Protection. Ask then what can you do. One good trick and it always works, CC your letter (but dont send it) to Todd van der Heyder on CTV on Your Side. Man they will move their butts cause they think your ready to go on TV to do something and no one or no school board wants to go on tv for a problem like that especially a school. I would double check also for ADD...just incase..:thumbs up

pitgrrl
February 10th, 2008, 08:01 AM
There are also schools in Montreal which work with kids who are not, living up to their potential lets say. Venture is the one that comes to mind as it's where my brother went, but I believe there are others.

It might be worth looking into schools which are small enough and set up to be able to keep the students on a tighter leash.

FlynnMB
February 11th, 2008, 01:24 PM
14+ has hit the nail on the head here, no-one said it better:thumbs up.

I once said to my eldest that I had called the Gardi, he had thrown a chair down the stairs at me & if I had met him face to face I could have gone over the top. I let on I called the Gardi, I rang the doorbell myself & talked to no-one outside the door (passers by thought I was mad), he hid in his room. For years later he thought that I 'phoned the Gardi, he's 18 now & the best chap you could meet in the world.

14+kitties
February 12th, 2008, 12:32 PM
I once said to my eldest that I had called the Gardi, he had thrown a chair down the stairs at me & if I had met him face to face I could have gone over the top. I let on I called the Gardi, I rang the doorbell myself & talked to no-one outside the door (passers by thought I was mad), he hid in his room. For years later he thought that I 'phoned the Gardi, he's 18 now & the best chap you could meet in the world.

thanks FlynnMB :o

That Gardi (I am assuming Gardi is equivalent to our police) story is too cute! I have done the same thing though too. It works amazingly well. At least until they get too old to buy it.

want4rain
February 12th, 2008, 12:52 PM
hey Marko, how are things going with them anyway? are things lookingn up??

-ash