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My males dog are fighting too much! HELP!!!

lorenpad
June 11th, 2004, 04:08 PM
Help please! I have two beautiful shih tzu puppies that were doing fine, they were getting along well and lately they have been fighting fiercely. They have been together for over two months and they never used to fight like this. One is neutered and is 7 months old the other one is 5 months and will be neutered in two weeks, could it be that the young one's hormones are kicking in? he is also becoming a little aggressive and he has always been the sweetest puppy ever, what happened to my dogs? My fiance and I try to not leave them alone for too long, the longest they are alone is a couple of hours a day but we are home most of the time. We take them out on daily walks (if wheather allows it) we play with them all the time. We thought that we trained them well but now this is happening and it's getting hard to handle!! ANY IDEAS HOW TO DEAL WITH THEM
thanx
Lorenpad

Princesss04
June 11th, 2004, 04:49 PM
Is the one in heat?

chico2
June 11th, 2004, 05:04 PM
I believe they are two males,princess..

Princesss04
June 11th, 2004, 05:13 PM
Opps, I guess it would help if I read. I am so dumb sometimes. I admit it though unlike some people. That is so bad of me to say that. I am sorry! Scratch the whole heat thing. Thank you for pointing that out. ;)

heidiho
June 11th, 2004, 05:18 PM
Hmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!

Spoiled
June 11th, 2004, 06:28 PM
Leaving them alone when they're acting like that is not a good idea. Crate one - or both when you're away.

glasslass
June 11th, 2004, 06:58 PM
It sounds like they're trying to establish who's going to be top dog in the pecking order :o

Lucky Rescue
June 11th, 2004, 07:25 PM
I suggest you get the younger puppy neutered as well, and this may (or may not) resolve itself with time. Two males, or two females are often not the best combination.

Who starts the fights? One of them will probably emerge as dominant, and you must reinforce that by feeding, petting etc. the dominant one first.

Could you be accidentally causing conflict, by giving them high value toys or treats together? Letting one on your lap but not the other?

In the meantime, until the neutering, do not leave them alone together.

Bill & Bob
June 13th, 2004, 08:17 PM
Yup, two males can be a pain in the butt sometimes. The fellow I'm working with has a huge male dog that is very dominant. My Bob is starting to assert himself as a male too now. That's making it a big pain in the butt on the work sites. We have to keep them separate or else they start growling at each other and start fights. Not really fights, more just a very loud scuffle and lots of teeth baring and lots of heavy wrestling. It sounds pretty nasty though.
My friend basically said that if we just let them go at it someday if they start without breaking it up they will be fine afterwards. One of them has to be the dominant dog and they haven't "worked it out" yet. The problem with that is that during the working it out stage they could hurt each other. I don't want either dog to get hurt in any way, so we've found it's just easier to try and keep them apart or take turns bringing the dogs to the site.

When I first got Bob I took him over to another friends place. He has quite a big dog who is incredibly well behaved and a very good dog. Despite this, he and Bob growled at each other and started a minor scrap. The other pooch put Bob on the ground and held him there for a few seconds. Once he let Bob up, they were all happy with each other and there were never any problems after that. Very weird how these things work.

But yes, like LR said male dogs do get nervous when they are around unfixed dogs. If I'm at the park and someone brings an intact male to the park I just pack up and leave. One guy asked if I had a problem with him one time, and I had to explain that his over 100lb Rottie was constantly getting into trouble with other dogs even if he wasn't the one who started the problems. He didn't seem to understand, but he talks like one of those guys who gets a big dog to make up for some other 'short' comings.

Chany
June 13th, 2004, 08:22 PM
"short" coming!!! LMAO!!!! Nice one Bill! :D I've often wondered if that was true. :)

glasslass
June 13th, 2004, 10:04 PM
Hee hee hee! You have to check out the fingers! :D

LavenderRott
June 14th, 2004, 12:35 AM
I, personally, wouldn't own two dogs of the same age and sex. While bitches will fight to the death to decide who is dominant, two males can be equally nasty.

I have a friend with a pair of male rottweilers and her house like a house under seige. Both her and her SO must be aware of each dogs whereabouts at all times. And it is not just a matter of one dog inside and one dog outside, either. One of the boys went through a plate glass window trying to get to the other.

BTW, they are both neutered.

Chany
June 14th, 2004, 08:19 PM
That would be terrifying. At least little shihtzus you could manhandle but 2 big rotties?
Glasslass :eek: I'm shocked!! Naw I've heard that one too!! LOL :D

Bill & Bob
June 15th, 2004, 07:32 PM
You are absolutely right LavenderRott. Bob and this other dog are both neutered and they still grumble at each other all the time. I just find it happens more frequently and predictably with intact males.

kellsbells
June 16th, 2004, 01:39 AM
That is so strange I also have 2 male Shih-Tzu's( Father and Son) and they have been fighting alot lately too and they are both neutered. I wonder if eventually they will resign themselves to getting along but it has been 19 months here and things have only gotten worse :eek:

lorenpad
June 16th, 2004, 10:29 AM
I thought that my older puppy (chili) had already established dominance, but that was when he was bigger than pepper, now it is getting to be a pain in the butt.. they used to get along quite well but now we have to separate them when we are not home. Pepper is going to be neutered in a week and I hope that helps, most of the time they do well together, they play and eat together i try to pay attention to both of them but I have noticed that they fight sometimes to be close to me. I let my babies sleep in the bed with me and lately chili is getting closer and pepper is also trying to sleep on top of my legs.. it's very cute but I am starting to get tired. I hope that getting the other puppy fixed is going to help. I love them both and I don't want them to be separated all the time..

Bill & Bob
June 16th, 2004, 11:39 AM
Hmm, now that's interesting. Perhaps they are jealous of each other for your attention. You might consider not letting them both sleep in your bed with you for a while. That might help them both understand that they are lower on the alpha pecking order and you are the boss who gets the bed. It might put them both back on the same level again? Just a thought.

Karin
June 16th, 2004, 12:48 PM
18 months is roughly the age of social maturity for dogs. Differs slightly with the breed. From this age on is usually when the fight's start...it will either get worse or they will work out their place in the household. I would recommend behavior training.

lorenpad
June 16th, 2004, 02:09 PM
Thanx for all of the info. I have actually had two males in the past and I never had a problem before. I guess I will try behavior training if after pepper's neutering the aggression does not calm down. They are the sweetest puppies, I love them sooooooo much.. The oldest used to be bigger than the youngest and now since the oldest doe not eat very much the youngest is bigger and maybe a little stronger. The oldest (chili) loves to pick on pepper and that is how they end up fighting so much.. I really do hope that it will pass after pepper gets neutered.. Wish me luck!!

mastifflover
June 16th, 2004, 02:13 PM
I happen to agree with the post about letting them have it out most of the time it is mostly just noise and sounds a lot worse than it is. I had this problem with my 2 previous dogs. One was new to the house so they had to work out their pecking order I would break up any fights for the first 2 weeks and then decided to let them sort it out themselves. Well they went at it in the back yard one day and I stood and watched to make sure it was not getting vicious and they made a lot of noise and within a minute they had it settled. We did not have one fight after that and it got to the point where they became best friends by the way it was 2 males. I have found that if you break it up all the time it tends to make them want to go at each other more than deterring it. I understand that you do not want your kids to get hurt but you are right there and can break it up if it gets too intense. Neutering will probably help a bit.

funpets
June 20th, 2004, 02:21 PM
I have an article posted on my website that includes some info on dogs who act out.
My instinct on your puppies is that they are both alpha dogs and they are doing
what comes naturally in pack behavior - fighting it out to see who will be the
final alpha in the family. If they start to draw blood, you might need to separate
them for a spell. Be sure not to show any favoritism to one over the other -
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sungirl1213
July 12th, 2004, 01:27 AM
I have two large, unneutered pit bulls and luckily have had no problem. We adopted them from a shelter at eight weeks old but one is 3 months older than the other. In order to keep them from being aggressive towards one another they have slept in the same cage from day one, they still do even though they are 2 and 2 1/2 y.o., eat side by side and get the exact same everything (treatment, toys, etc). It's tough with two boys because one always wants to be the "top dog" so to speak so any aggressive behavior must be dealt with right away. A quick scolding or punishment and positive re-enforcement for good behavior seemed to do the trick for mine. In order to stay on top of it make sure you set firm boundaries of what is acceptable and that you stick to your guns, give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile.

glasslass
July 12th, 2004, 02:35 AM
Sungirl, do you show your dogs or is there a reason they are not neutered?

sammiec
July 12th, 2004, 01:22 PM
I have two large, unneutered pit bulls and luckily have had no problem. We adopted them from a shelter at eight weeks old but one is 3 months older than the other. In order to keep them from being aggressive towards one another they have slept in the same cage from day one, they still do even though they are 2 and 2 1/2 y.o., eat side by side and get the exact same everything (treatment, toys, etc). It's tough with two boys because one always wants to be the "top dog" so to speak so any aggressive behavior must be dealt with right away. A quick scolding or punishment and positive re-enforcement for good behavior seemed to do the trick for mine. In order to stay on top of it make sure you set firm boundaries of what is acceptable and that you stick to your guns, give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile.

Sungirl. I have posted to another thread that you discussed these dogs, but now that I read this.... 3 months is not older, in the eyes of a dog. They will try and establish dominance, weither it's today or a month from now, there is no way around it. Unaltered males are very unpredictable (well, so are altered I guess..) They must be neutured. I would suggest NOT letting them sleep in the same crate, there CANNOT be enought room for these two dogs unless the crate is like 30ft x 30ft. They require their own space. Would you be able to get the door open and pull a dog out in time if a start was to break out? Nope, don't think so...Once these dogs begin to fight, do you have the strength or plan for seperation. Will you be able to get them apart? The answer is no. These dogs can do ALOT of damage in a very short amount of time.

:( Please keep them safe.

Lucky Rescue
July 12th, 2004, 01:32 PM
sammiec, did you read the fight thread on the other board? Particularly "apbtnyc"'s post about how his bitch nearly killed his girlfriend's dog just in the time it took him to race across the room?

He is someone who is incredibly knowledgeable and experienced with this breed, and he is a trainer as well, yet this happened to him in the blink of an eye.

I GUARANTEE that sungirl WILL come home to dead or dying dogs if she refuses to educate herself, and more damage will be done to the breed.:(

This is going to be VERY ugly.

sammiec
July 12th, 2004, 01:39 PM
Yeah Lucky I read that post, VERY scary!! Were they not in the same room as the dogs? By the time that they had pulled to dogs apart the pit bull had SEVERLY injured the other dog. AND THEY WERE RIGHT THERE, AND EXPERIENCED!!! They had planned for the day that it might happen and both were waiting for it, but when it happens, you MUST react in a blink of an eye, and that's still not quick enough!!!

HUGH LAWSON
July 21st, 2004, 08:47 PM
i have grown up with pit bulls and have seen both sides. i have scene 5 apbt live and die without a fight breaking out. and i have seen 3 apbt's who just couldn't stand each other. it all depends on the dog and how much time you put into them. my opinion

sammiec
July 22nd, 2004, 03:11 PM
i have grown up with pit bulls and have seen both sides. i have scene 5 apbt live and die without a fight breaking out. and i have seen 3 apbt's who just couldn't stand each other. it all depends on the dog and how much time you put into them. my opinion

It's a fact of the breed. They were bred to fight. They can love each other, there's no question about that! It's the fact that they should NEVER be left alone unsupervised. There's too much risk involved, if you're willing to gamble with your dog's life then fine, leave them alone together. But I don't think I would be willing to chance that. Weither it's two pits left together or a pit and another breed, a fight can break out and ONE dog will win. That's the sad truth my friend. :(

Lucky Rescue
July 22nd, 2004, 08:02 PM
Two pit bulls might live happily together for 5, 6 or even 10 years, then one day a car backfires, or a cat jumps up to the window and one dog may kill the other.

I just don't understand why people would take this chance, even after they are informed of the possible (and likely) consequences, but then I'm not a fan of Russian Roulette either. :rolleyes:

EVERY person who has had this happen has said, "I never thought they would do that!"

Cactus Flower
July 22nd, 2004, 08:12 PM
Ok I already threw in my two cents on the other pit bull thread that sungirl was on, and on about. No need for me to rehash the pit bull arguments here.

Back to the topic at hand- until the pit bulls came up, this thread seemed to be going in the direction of leaving same-sex dogs alone........and that same sex dogs won't get along as well.
I really raised my eyebrows at this. I don't doubt it's validity, or the validity of any of your experiences. But I've gotta say I only get female dogs. ONLY. FEMALE. I always have two girls at home. Yes, there is some snarling and snittiness when I bring a new girl home, and no I don't let them hash it out. I scold for any snapping, each and every time, and then everything eventually is fine. This was also the case when I was fostering.
My girls are great friends now, no snarling or arguments of any kind.

Before I had the spitz and the dane, I had a pitX and the spitz. Same thing. When I brought the spitz home, snarling snapping etc. Stopped them and scolded every time. Then, no problems. Great buds until the death of the pitX.

Sometimes letting them just fight it out can be dangerous. A Finnish Spitz is no match for a large pitX or a great dane. The big dog might think they are just settling an argument, not realizing the damage it is doing to the little one.
Just my opinion, and I admit it is somewhat uneducated because I have never let them just fight it out, assuming the aforementioned damage might incur.

Lucky Rescue
July 22nd, 2004, 08:20 PM
It also depends on breed. IN GENERAL, two spayed bitches will fight more fiercely than two males for dominance. The vets who see the gruesome results will concur on this.

Just read on another board that someone refused to separate her two Rottie bitches, even though they were fighting. Now her son has been bitten twice trying to separate them during HUGE fights, so the dog has to die.:(

The best combination, in GENERAL, is a male/female duo.

Cactus Flower
July 22nd, 2004, 08:36 PM
Again, I'm not disputing any of your experiences. But I've always had spayed females, and haven't had this problem. I should add that I live in a very remote area and the girls have never been "cooped up" together. Although they choose to stay right outside the house, they have miles and miles to roam if they wanted to (but they never do). They have seperate beds outside and seperate beds inside. Maybe not being penned up together makes a difference in the need to establish dominance? They do eat in the same room, but that's not been a problem after the first few snarling sessions.

Perhaps what you say about the female-on-female fighting being more vicious would be true, if they were to fight. I don't doubt your education on these matters one bit, LuckyRescue. You are my encyclopedia here!

eleyballel
July 28th, 2004, 11:22 PM
Fighting can get nasty. We have wonderful dogs that just can't get along. We have had a poodle schnauzer mix (about 10 pounds) for about 7 years. Recently we adopted a 10-12 month old wire haired tarrier mix (about 45 pounds). Both are female. The little dog believes itself to be dominant despite the fact that she has been shown otherwise by the bigger dog three times.

Now that's enough--because when she is shown by the bigger dog, the bigger dog has every intention of ending her life beyond a doubt. If I do not pull her off--she has no intention of stopping. It's quite nerve racking. This stuff about them fighting it out is not what I have noticed. This little dog has not only been shown by our recent (still puppy) but by two other dogs that attacked her, whom had been dropped off on our land. (We live in the country--it happens regularly.) Also, an earlier much bigger dog (about 65 lbs) we sent to the pound after she too became determined to kill our small but determined to be dominant long time pet.

We have decided that a large dog is simple out of the question here. If someone has a good idea other than that, please let me know, as the young but bigger dog is one of the most expressive and sweet dogs I have ever known, and I hate to give her up, but otherwise if you know of someone that would love her and provide for her near the Lubbock, Texas area also let me know. We need to find her a new home soon. It's almost impossible for us to keep them seperate all day long. :(

Cactus Flower
July 29th, 2004, 01:29 AM
Texas? Well helllllooooo neighbor!

Eley, if you are serious about finding a home for your dog, please email me at desertsoul@cptnet.com
We are close enough that I might be able to put you in contact with at least a foster/rescue group- if you really feel that the dog's life is in danger and there are no other alternatives.
But first I would encourage you to post your problem in the training or general forum here, and consider the responses you will get from the helpful and knowledgable people on this site.

mastifflover
July 29th, 2004, 10:46 AM
Two females together can be a recipie for disaster. Females are much more dominant then males when they are living together. The better situation is male and female or two males. This is so sad for you but I really dont think that it will get a much better since they both seem to want to be the dominate ones. Females will fight to the death unfortunately.

eleyballel
July 29th, 2004, 09:26 PM
Thanks for the responses Cactus flower and Mastifflover. I will post it to the behavior forum. I am aware of an adoption/foster group here and have got in touch with them. Their foster homes are currently full, but we will be taking the bigger dog down to PetsMart Saturday where they adopt out the pets they have in their custody.

I too have had female dogs togather--several at one time, and all were spayed. But before, never had this problem. I think it's going to happen with an older small female dog and a younger but bigger female. Our dogs for their entire lives have gotten along fine. And, now that I think about it we did have an original small female and introduced two dogs that were eventually larger than her. But, she was not quite an adult when we introduced the two dogs that became bigger than her. Well anyway it is as it is. :(