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Myka's transition to Raw

Myka
January 28th, 2008, 12:20 AM
Hey all. I have had the Holistic Guide for a Healthy Dog book since it first came out in 2000. I'm looking to finally change my dog over to raw after humming and hawing about it since just before I bought that book. Really, I'm just scared to do it, that I won't do it right, and it will be more detrimental than feeding her kibble. :eek:

She's been on Nutro's Natural Choice Large Breed Adult for years. When she was a pup I tried lots of different foods from expensive (Ebo Innova, Solid Gold, etc) to semi-cheap (like Nutro/Nutrience). She seemed to do the best on Nutro's so that's what we stuck with. :shrug:

Anywho...I've searched on this forum looking for details on what people are feeding, and all I'm getting is info on raw meats. Surely you guys are feeding more than just meats...? I'd like to try the diet in the above mentioned book, but it is very detailed, and has a lot of different ingredients. I cook once a week for myself, and I cook enough to last all week. :o So in all honesty I just won't manage to do that intense diet in that book. I don't feel comfortable "just winging it", so I'd really like to find a diet recipe that is veterinary dietician recommended. Any recommendations?

Cheers! :dog:

TeriM
January 28th, 2008, 01:52 AM
A great book to read that is easy to understand and quite basic is "the ultimate diet" by kymythy schultze. I personally feed mostly ground meat/bones plus some veggies and supplement with glucosamine and coconut oil. This is also quite a good link http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/ and here are a few good threads on the subject:
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=27080&highlight=raw+food
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=36865

MerlinsHope
January 28th, 2008, 07:34 AM
I am a prey model feeder and only feed meats and fish and I have found that most successful. Many years ago when I hopped on the raw bandwagon I also did the ground food vegetable slurry stuff, and now many years later, we are far more educated about raw diets, and many of the pitfalls of pseudo raw diets, so I only practice prey model feeding, ( 80% meat /10% bone / 10% offal), meaning whole meats and carcass and fish and no supplements, roots or other non species specific foods, and certainly no fruits or vegetables other than green tripe. To date, hands down to me it is the ultimate way to correctly feed a dog or cat. You may want to visit www.rawmeatybones.com and read Dr. Tom Lonsdale's book.

I gave someone a sample menu just the other day

20 lb sharpei

2 chicken wings
1 tsp green tripe
1 sardine


100 lb chow chow

1/4 chicken or 1/2 chicken
1 tblsp green tripe
1 mackerel (approx 12 inches long)
1 chicken liver, 1 heart


Tuesday
20 lb sharpei

1 tsp green tripe
1 large salmon tail
1 sardine
raw egg


100 lb chow chow
2 or 3 salmon heads
4 or 5 sardines
1 tblsp green tripe
raw egg

Wednesday
20 lb sharpei

beef or pork or lamb short rib
small piece beef lung or esphogus
1 tsp green tripe
1 sardine


100 lb chow chow
beef or pork or lamb short ribs
medium piece beef lung
1 tblsp green tripe
4-5 sardines


Thursday
20 lb sharpei
2 small hunks mackerel( 1 cup)
1/4 cup chicken gizzards

100 lb chow chow
4 1/2 cups of mackerel hunks
1/2 cup chicken gizzards

Friday
FAST - recreational bones only, or pigs ears, tails or feet maybe a couple of eggs

Saturday
20 lb sharpei
1 chicken leg or rabbit haunch
1 tsp green tripe
1 sardine

100 lb chow chow

1/2 chicken or 1/2 rabbit
1 tblsp green tripe
3-4 sardines
1/4 cup chicken or pork gizzards


Nothing is ever written in stone with raw diets because too much depends on availability. It's just to try to give you an idea. The chicken could be pork or beef or lamb or beaver, or deer or rabbit, bison, moose, ... it all depends on what's on sale and on what we have access to that week or month. Also, please note that the above is geared to the age and activity level of those two specific dogs only. Menus can vary based on age, size and of course how active they are.

The one constant factor is the fatty fish. They get Omega fatty fish everyday.I also fast my dogs once a week. It's a big deal with sharpei because almost 100% of skin issues are caused by poor feeding practices which are easily remedied with RMB, so we have plenty of proof here at our rescue. All of our rescues now are raw fed. The advantages are just too great for us to ignore it now, and what we save in vet bills and skin ointments is very noticable. I've been feeding prey model raw for about 4 years now and I find it very successful.



If you found a good food that your dog is doing well on, why change? You can always supplement with some good , fresh, raw recreational bones to help your dog's teeth cleaning, and certainly add a sardine here and there or green tripe. There are now some very good commercial kibbles on the marketplace. To feed Raw properly, you have to be fairly committed to the diet, and to see results, you will have to stick with it for some time.

I was happy when you said: :"I don't feel comfortable "just winging it", - that's a very good approach, because you shouldn't 'dicker' with a raw diet or alternative diets without some sort of foundation or knowledge. In doing so, you could harm your dog instead of helping it. I'm a nutrition nut, study and work in that field, so raw makes perfect sense to me, and as I mentioned, given the breed we work with, raw diets and nutrional issues goes hand in hand, - BUT - I'll be the first to say, if you're doing ok now, don't change simply because it's a 'fad', or you're bored, or you simply 'think', you should be doing it. Frankly, there is nothing wrong with feeding a quality commercial kibble that your dog does well with. Why are you wanting to change? There is a saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Cheers

want4rain
January 28th, 2008, 02:21 PM
mostly just meats on this end. we also end up with about 10% of our 95lb lab mix's diet is.... whatever the kids throw on the floor. but to say, i make sure that what i feed him is enough to sustain him. at times thats barely (ie very little variety) due to finances but i believe what i give him is better than any of the hypoallergenic diets out there. ive posted a few times about my dogs and my cats weekly menu.

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=48655

(MerlinsHope, would you mind posting your 'raw philosophy' in there?? ive been meanign to IM you back!)

-ash

Myka
January 28th, 2008, 08:42 PM
Wow! Thanks everyone for all the links and information!! :highfive:

I'm not comfortable with a 100% meat diet. I know that coyotes and wolves eat quite a bit of "vegetarian" foods as well. I'm not really sure what they are eating, but simply by looking at coyote and wolf poop you can see that there is definately A LOT of non-meat foods in there. I would like to achieve as close to a "wild" diet as I can, as I'd like to believe this would be the best, but I would be very interested to know if domestic dogs' digestive systems have evolved differently than their wild counterparts...?

Now...to go read those links. :D

MerlinsHope
January 28th, 2008, 09:04 PM
I know that coyotes and wolves eat quite a bit of "vegetarian" foods as well.

I am curious to know how you arrive at your observation of wild canids eating vegetarian foods as a regular food item.

Are you familiar with the work of L. Robert Mec,(sp) the renowned biologist who studied wolves in the wild? He cites that fox, wolves, coyotes basically eat what is available. For them, meat is not always available. Given that they are not always successful in hunting down meat, hunger forces them to eat other types of food, not necessarily by choice, but by availability, and given the choice, they will always choose meat over any other type of food . Canids are not necessarily discerning eaters and when starving will eat almost anything including road kill and garbage not to mention their own feces. He also cites that just prior to consuming animal carcass, the stomach contents are shaken out and removed and not consumed at all. So to say that they eat 'quite a bit of vegetarian foods', is very questionable.

It has already been proven that there are no nutritional requirements of fruit and vegetables, or carbs in a diet for canines. You have to remember that the principal reason that people started to use vegetable matter in raw diets, was an attempt to ensure a more complete nutritional value in the diet, very much similar to how corn or soy is still used as a viable protein in commercial kibble. We all now know that many dogs react to corn very negatively and we also now know that vegetables can have a similar impact on a dog's digestive system and organs. There are now documented detrimental effects from some varieties of vegetables in a dog's diet ie: carrots cause bloody stools, greens carry too many oxylates or are too high in Vitamin A causing kidney and bladder crystals, fruits carry far to much sugar encouraging diabetes, candidae , rotten teeth, etc.

Nowadays it is possible to feed entire carcass so there is little need for supplementing with external foods.

Also, vegetables and fruits literally have to be 'juiced', not ground, or pureed, but "juiced", to have any nutritional effects as canines lack the enzymes necessary to break down cellulose.

As far as your question regarding a dog's digestive system, it is the very same system that existed 2000 years ago. It has not changed at all and is designed to process foods in approximately 4 hours. Kibble stays in the gut for up to 8 hours, however raw usually makes it through in 4 or less. Of course genetics plays a major role here too. Some dogs and breeds are far more sensitive to foreign foods than other breeds are.

Another thing to remember as well is that many of these books came out between 1999 and 2002. It's now 2008, almost 10 years later so many of the ideals in those books are very outdated. We know a lot more now then we did 8 years ago.

Thanks - food for thought.

MerlinsHope
January 28th, 2008, 09:35 PM
95lb lab mix's diet is.... whatever the kids throw on the floor. but to say,

Years ago we had a lab and she learned to sit right under the children's seats because she knew plenty of goodies would fall on the floor. Labs are the quintessential kitchen floor cleaners. That's for sure.

Myka
January 28th, 2008, 10:01 PM
Years ago we had a lab and she learned to sit right under the children's seats because she knew plenty of goodies would fall on the floor. Labs are the quintessential kitchen floor cleaners. That's for sure.

:laughing: I call my dog The Vacuum Cleaner. :D

Thanks for your post. Very informative. As I've been reading over the last hour I have learned a lot. Previously, my only knowledge of raw or homeprepared diets was from books......from 6-8 years ago! I have been wondering if that information is outdated.

I did say why I think that coyotes and wolves eat vegetarian foods well, but I will elaborate. I grew up on a hobby farm in a rural area with lost of bush/forest closeby. There were lots of coyotes, and the odd wolf (or six haha). The poop they left behind often had A LOT of vegetarian foods, in fact there were more vegetarian poops than carnivore poops. I suppose the theory that hunger drives them to eat vegetarian foods, but from the vegetarian coyote poop where I grew up you'd think that the coyotes were starving to death! :laughing:

I'm still reading more...and learning that meat should make up a larger portion of the diet than I thought, but I have yet to completely banish the idea of adding a small amount of greens/grains or something of the like. When I say a small amount, I'm thinking like a few tbsp per week.

Being a person who takes a handful of "daily" suppliments several times a week, I have a hard time NOT putting suppliments into my dog's diet. :o Currently my dog just gets 1000mg glucosamine. :dog:

want4rain
January 28th, 2008, 11:13 PM
the difference between a carnivorous coyotes poop and a vegetarian coyotes poop is the carnivorous one will be completely digested, the vegetarian poop will have obvious vegetables in it. :)

-ash

MerlinsHope
January 29th, 2008, 05:54 AM
I have to totally agree with WANT4RAIN. The reason you see the vegetables there in the stool is because they can't digest them.
Lucky you growing up on a farm. Not to many people can boast that these days. I'm jealous.

I have a hard time NOT putting suppliments into my dog's diet.

I think we have to constantly remind our selves that our dogs are not humans.
They are different, their digestive system is different and their emotional and nutritional needs are different from ours.

We as humans can do possible damage to them when we impose our human values on to them, whether it be through food or behaviour. It was human values that brought us 'cheap' dog food in the first place and look at what that has done.

I think when we can look at them for what they are, and accept these differences, then adjust ourselves accordingly, we do right by them.

:pawprint:

want4rain
January 29th, 2008, 08:36 AM
I have to totally agree with WANT4RAIN. The reason you see the vegetables there in the stool is because they can't digest them.
Lucky you growing up on a farm. Not to many people can boast that these days. I'm jealous.

I have a hard time NOT putting suppliments into my dog's diet.

I think we have to constantly remind our selves that our dogs are not humans.
They are different, their digestive system is different and their emotional and nutritional needs are different from ours.

We as humans can do possible damage to them when we impose our human values on to them, whether it be through food or behaviour. It was human values that brought us 'cheap' dog food in the first place and look at what that has done.

I think when we can look at them for what they are, and accept these differences, then adjust ourselves accordingly, we do right by them.

:pawprint:


i dont know MerlinsHope, i kinda have to disagree with that. i dont think a change needs to be made in imposing our human values other than what WE call nutrition, being omnivores versus dogs being opportunistic carnivores but rather a change of mentality on how WE, as people, view nutrition.

supplements are just that, supplements. if you are feeding or eating enough of the RIGHT foods, you should never need supplements, dog or person. eating right is far far far more healthy on so many different levels than getting enough of or the right supplements.

im still on the fence as to the benefits of feeding grains, dairy, fruit and veggies myself. in our house its just more convenient to feed him our 'left overs' instead of having a fasting day. with as little as we waste here its just about a fasting day!! i doubt we will ever reach a point in Misters lifetime where he wont be eating nonmeat items. :) maybe afterwards when the kkids arent throwing things on the floor?

-ashley

want4rain
January 29th, 2008, 08:39 AM
It was human values that brought us 'cheap' dog food in the first place and look at what that has done.

to also say it was human values that brought us Fast Food. :)

-ash

MerlinsHope
January 29th, 2008, 09:03 AM
supplements are just that, supplements. if you are feeding or eating enough of the RIGHT foods, you should never need supplements, dog or person.

Absolutely correct. Please re-read what I said. You're essentially saying the same thing that I'm saying.

At the same time though, if we fail to recognize that dogs have different needs then we do, and insist that 'they', modify their health based on our needs as humans, and not on their needs, then, yes, of course we are imposing human values on our dogs.

A good example of this is the policy of feeding a dog once a day. Someone came up with that because they realized in doing so, the dog would only poop once a day. And of course, that makes perfect sense to some humans, primarily those who have an aversion to cleaning up after their dogs. The reality is that a dog would never force itself to only eat once a day in the wild or left to it's own devices. That is a classic example of imposing a human value on a dog. I can give you plenty more examples too.


! i doubt we will ever reach a point in Misters lifetime where he wont be eating nonmeat items. maybe afterwards when the kkids arent throwing things on the floor?
Ultimately you may have grandkids who will gladly keep up the wonderful tradition of accidentally dropping goodies on the floor.
Gawd knows I'm looking forward to it!

Have a great day!

MerlinsHope
January 29th, 2008, 09:05 AM
to also say it was human values that brought us Fast Food.

Ahhhh yes! But many of us are smart enough not to eat fast foods or junk foods or at least can make the choice not to eat it. Our dogs don't have a choice. They rely on us to make their choices for them. You agree with that?

want4rain
January 29th, 2008, 09:15 AM
:offtopic: warning!!!! SORRY!!!!

oh right, i wasnt exactly disagreeing!! especially not the last post!! sometimes others need a different perspective or something to compare kibble to. you can even take that whole Fast Food idea a little farther and point out soooooo many of our foods are over processed. im a girl who loves her Mac&Cheese but i know its not GOOD for me. look at all of the preservatives and dyes and sugars in a huge portion of KIDS cereal? wow!

also, in the lengthier post i was only really addressing that first paragraph of mine at you (in the vague way it was addressed to you anyway!!) the rest of it was also sort of a tangent to the OP about her supplements. :) and then an actual ON TOPIC post from me on nonmeaty stuff.

sorry to be so unclear!! i expect everyone to be psychic! :D didnt you know you are suppose to be psychic?? especially before ive finished my second cup of coffee for the morning. ;)

-ash

Myka
January 29th, 2008, 09:20 AM
I'm definately leaning more towards feeding 100% carnivore diet. I think I'll start off with no suppliments, and she how it goes with her. Although I understand it is a good idea to use probiotics in the changeover to prevent diarrhea and gas. Here's my plan:

~ Feed probiotics twice daily (with each feeding) for one week with her kibble.
~ Change the morning (7am) feeding to raw chicken. Keep feeding probiotics.
~ After one week, if all is well, change evening (6pm) feeding to raw chicken as well. Keep feeding probiotics.
~ After one week, if all is well, add a second protein source. Keep feeding probiotics for a total of one month.

Does this sound like a good plan? Do you guys just use capsules of acidophilus? If not, what do you use? I'm told to avoid dairy (yogurt etc) during the changeover period. How much acidophilus? I can't seem to find a definitive answer...

Thanks!

want4rain
January 29th, 2008, 09:39 AM
your start up plan sounds great. if you want to skip the probotics (of which i dont know a danged thing about!!!) you can start lightly cooking the chicken until it is totally raw. thats how we did it anyway!

-ash

MerlinsHope
January 29th, 2008, 09:44 AM
sorry to be so unclear!! i expect everyone to be psychic! didnt you know you are suppose to be psychic?? especially before ive finished my second cup of coffee for the morning.

*Whew* for a moment there I thought I accidentally put too much gin in my morning tea!

MerlinsHope
January 29th, 2008, 09:52 AM
ff with no suppliments, and she how it goes with her. Although I understand it is a good idea to use probiotics in the changeover to prevent diarrhea and gas .

I have sad news for you. You can pro-biotic until the cows come home and you'll still get gas and you'll still experience the "hershey squirts" once in a while. That's perfectly normal. Be prepared! Get your Haz-mat gear together because ultimately, you'll eventually need it one day. (to expect perfectly formed poop is one of those human value things I was talking about) What regulates stool consistency is the type of meat you are serving and your actual meat/to bone ratio and not pro-biotics. (and of course the general health condition of the colon and intestines)


~ Feed probiotics twice daily (with each feeding) for one week with her kibble.
~ Change the morning (7am) feeding to raw chicken. Keep feeding probiotics.
~ After one week, if all is well, change evening (6pm) feeding to raw chicken as well. Keep feeding probiotics.
~ After one week, if all is well, add a second protein source. Keep feeding probiotics for a total of one month.


HINT: You may want to switch things around. Raw chicken will be processed in 4 hours or less, so unless you are there to let your loved one out, be prepared to come home wearing your Haz-mat suit.

Your Diet Plan
Unfortunately, feeding raw chicken daily is not a raw diet of merit, nor an introduction to raw dieting in an appropriate fashion.

That's kind of like you saying, "ok, I'm going to become a vegetarian". Now, I'll start off by only having carrots all this week and if all goes well, next week I'll add stringbeans, and the week after I'll add eggplant. Do you see the analogy?

You have to serve a variety of meats on a daily basis to ensure quality nutrition of merit.
You will find with your method, the moment you add a second , then 3rd or 4th protein source you'll be back to the Haz-mat suit before you can spell "poop" backwards. The better way to ensure proper digestion is to secure a healthy pH in the stomach and intestines. Serve fresh meaty bones and if you stick to the 80% meat/10& bone /10% offal rule you will never, if ever go wrong. (unless your dog has specific illnesses)


One day chicken, next day, something else, next day something else. Most importantly, what I don't see you mention, is the all encompassing, all important Omega 3+6. These TWO elements that should never , ever be left out of any raw diet for any reason, and that is EFA (Essential Fatty Acids), available from fatty fish. You need to toss in the sardines, or herring or mackeral on a daily basis somewhere in there. Even if it's canned. That's ok. It's far better than no Omega. No Omega, puts your dog into very dangerous un-sound nutritional territory. The first thing you should purchase when shopping for raw, is your Omega source. first and fore most, always, always, always.


Do you guys just use capsules of acidophilus? If not, what do you use? I'm told to avoid dairy (yogurt etc) during the changeover period. How much acidophilus? I can't seem to find a definitive answer...


If you are seriously leaning towards a natural raw diet, then your pro-biotics should come from green tripe. Not from pills, yogurts or cheeses, but from green tripe. It's all you'll need. The reason is pH. (Acidity level in stomach and intestines). Green tripe has a naturally LOW pH - which is desirable. Dairy products don't, (which is undesirable) - they actually serve to buffer acid.

Low pH is what your dog needs to break down foods. While the addition of pro-biotics absolutely do help, the culprit that truly aids actual digestion is acid. By encouraging proper acidity in the intestines, you are encouraging good digestion, so that's why I say if you are serious in your endeavour then the better solution is green tripe.

NB: It is when the intestines become alkaline that people start to experience all these digestive problems, hot spots, skin problems, ear infections, and gum disease. Your dog's gut needs to be acidic.
Alkalinity occurs when too many carbs and sugars are continually processed, so that is why many people are telling you to stay away from dairy, farines, soy/ corn and fruits especially.

All of the above is JMHO of course. Take it or leave it!
Happy Tuesday

Myka
January 29th, 2008, 09:17 PM
Dang! Here I thought I had it figured out!! :wall: :laughing:

Hmmm, maybe you do have a point that the diarrhea (if any) may be recurring when new protein sources are added. But a lot of what I have read say start slow, and don't add too many protein sources too quickly. So when I said I wanted to start her on chicken, I was going to buy (nearly) every kind of chicken I can find, and vary it up, but stick to just the chicken. You really think that is a bad idea though...so now I'm not sure what to do. :laughing:

I understand the importance of Omegas as I take suppliments for Omegas as I do not like fish. :yuck: Although I didn't know she should have fish every single day. So that's good to know. I also understand the importance of green tripe as I hear it mentioned as a MUST HAVE all over the place, although I have no idea what it is, but apparently it smells like cow dung. Right on!!! The hound better not roll in it then! :laughing: I'm going to go search green tripe now to figure out dosing and just what it is that is so good about it.

MerlinsHope
January 30th, 2008, 06:47 AM
Hi Myka

I think the only reason people say to "start slow". are those that do not feed raw appropriately and add all kinds of things to their raw diet, instead of just adding meats.

Mkya, (stay with me here), close your eyes and just imagine...........
Just imagine for one minute that there was no more food in your fridge...
Just imagine that the stores were empty, everything gone,
All that was left was you, the hobby farm... the woods... the fields.

Just imagine.... your dog is hungry... and see a rabbit !
(are you still with me?)

Your dog, so hungry.... chases the rabbit and catches it.
Just imagine! Wow... his old instincts have kicked in and once again he's
the proud hunter his ancestors were........
(still with me? so far so good?)

Just imagine him eating that fresh, warm, succulent rabbit.
He will eat everything. The fur, chunky meats, a few small, tiny orgrans, and a bone here or there , he'll gorge himself, it tastes so good.

OK MYKA!!! WAKE UP NOW... OPEN YOUR EYES NOW


Each day you wake up, try to imagine, what your dog "caught today".
Was it a squirrel? A muskrat? Rabbit? did he bring down an elk? raid the chicken coop? steal some eggs? find a dead fish along the riverbank?

That is how you have to look at your raw feeding. Just like your dog does.
If you start thinking in those dimensions, next time you are in a store you'll have no problem choosing appropriate meats for your canine companion, and certainly you'll have no problem feeding him either. Natural raw feeding is just like all or any of the recipes at http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes


I didn't know she needs fish everyday
No, she doesn't need fish everyday, but she does a good and abundant source of Omegas and a natural source is fatty fish. You could also use krill oil, wild salmon oil, 3-fish oil, NEVER COD liver oil, but it's simply easier to toss your dog a fresh herring. It's a double bonus. It's health and acts like part of the meal where as a pill won't.


Green Tripe FAQs (http://www.clubequestre.com/health/YaBB.pl?num=1196290964)
~~~~~~~~~~



Much to the chagrin of many people who won't like to hear this , I can pretty much tell you that it's been my experience, that most people who have trouble with raw diets are the ones who feed psuedo raw diets, or contorted raw diets, and generally speaking they don't last long with the diet, the dog never really does exactly well, and later on down the road you'll often hear them say;
"Oh, I tried raw and it didn't work for me, so I'm doing this and that now".
or better still,
"My dog didn't like it"
"My dog actually got sick on it".

If you stick to just serving an abundance and variety of fresh, raw meaty bone, you should be successful, and that means not hamberger meat, not chicken necks, and backs raw, it means quarter and half chickens, turkeys, hunks of cod/salmon/whitefish , sides of ribs, entire carcass when available, meaty shanks and quarters and hinds, some tripe, a bit of organs here and there and some bone - it's that easy.

I will go to my grave saying that is it far better for your and your dog, to serve an ultra premium commercial dog food, than it is for you to try to implement a low quality raw diet of little or no merit. If you can't afford a premium bag of dog food, then you also won't be able to afford raw either.
Both costs are similar.

Best of luck - have fun though - and get a clothespin for your nose. The aroma in your kitchen is about to change.
Happy Humpday

Myka
January 30th, 2008, 09:17 AM
I will go to my grave saying that is it far better for your and your dog, to serve an ultra premium commercial dog food, than it is for you to try to implement a low quality raw diet of little or no merit. If you can't afford a premium bag of dog food, then you also won't be able to afford raw either.
Both costs are similar.

Best of luck - have fun though - and get a clothespin for your nose. The aroma in your kitchen is about to change.
Happy Humpday

Holy wowzers! Thanks for all your help!!

:laughing: about the kitchen aroma.

When Myka was a pup the only "ultra premium" dog food available was Solid Gold. I had her on the puppy version, and she developed dry itchy skin. I talked to my vet about it, and she said that she had seen quite a few dogs come in with dry itchy skin, hot spots, etc feeding Solid Gold. Albeit that was about 8 1/2-9 years ago, so maybe they have improved since then...? I tried her on Ebo Innova for 2-40lb bags and still thought she did better on her Nutro, so that's what we've stuck to. I keep hearing people say, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", but should I wait until it's broke before I switch to raw or what? :laughing: That's a pretty silly idea I think.

Anywho, here's my shopping list:

Probiotics (for the first month)
Green tripe
Sardines
Mackerel
Herring
Salmon heads (small)/tails/chunks
Beef and chicken kidney/liver/heart
Chicken/rabbit legs
Chicken gizzards (even I like these!)
Eggs
beef/pork/lamb short ribs (whatever those are)
beef lung/esophagus/tongue
chicken/turkey necks (not fed often)
chicken/pig feet (for "chewies")
plain yogurt w/ live cultures

Am I missing any prime pieces?? What are classified as "fatty" fish?

want4rain
January 30th, 2008, 09:31 AM
you can probably toss pork kidneys on there too. i cant remember all the different pork organs but if i recall there were a few. eggs! throw eggs on there! also bird backs have a handful of small organs still attached that tend to fall apart when cooked. i havent the faintest what they are but i make sure i feed that also.

-ashley

MerlinsHope
January 30th, 2008, 09:33 AM
You're list is looking better and better.
chicken/turkey necks (not fed often) - they should only be fed if attached to a carcasse (especially to a large dog) Your dog can choke on this. This is not a food item.

From what I see you don't have a miniature poodle so you don't want small , itty, bitty pieces of meat. If you have a big dog, you need big pieces of meat.

It would be nice larger pieces of meat like:
whole stewing chickens (usually very in-expensive)
pork / lamb shoulders
whole turkey or wings/ legs and breast.
lamb/beef shanks (usually in expensive)

Example:
On a good day you can buy a turkey leg for about $2.85. That would feed your big dog for an entire day. (just toss on two organs/some tripe and a mackerel)
Two turkey wings would feed him for a whole day (just toss on two organs/some tripe and a herring)

Don't make it complicated. You have too many organs on you list. Buy less organs and more meat.
Organs are only a supplement not a meal.

If you dog caught ANY animal, not matter what size, there would still only be one heart, two kidneys and one liver. If your dog caught a buffalo, he would eat meat, and only a small percentage of organs.


Save your money:

Green tripe = Yogurt
Green tripe = probiotics

So why are you considering over supplementing already??. If you feed GT you do not need probiotics you do not need yogurt. If you have money to burn, fine, but if not, you're doubling up for no necessarily good reason.

If it was me, I would stick with "species" appropriate supplements, and that is not dairy and not pills.


What are classified as "fatty" fish?
sardines.... salmon.... herring.... mackerel

Happy Humpday

MerlinsHope
January 30th, 2008, 09:45 AM
Holy wowzers! Thanks for all your help!!

When Myka was a pup the only "ultra premium" dog food available was Solid Gold. I had her on the puppy version, and she developed dry itchy skin. I talked to my vet about it, and she said that she had seen quite a few dogs come in with dry itchy skin, hot spots, etc feeding Solid Gold. A

Myrka, 8 or 9 years ago premium food was still made with junk, (just less junk), and the primary source of protein was still corn or soy, that is why your dog developed hot spots.

There are excellent, excellent foods out there now.
You can easily find grainless and chemical free. If you haven't explored them, perhaps you should. and by the very same token, if you feed an ultra premium food you don't need additional supplements.


:highfive::goodvibes:

Myka
February 2nd, 2008, 11:42 AM
Hi Merlin's Hope! Sorry I'm late with my reply. I've been very busy during the week. Thanks so much for your replies. :D

As far as my grocery list containing a lot of organ meats...I was just listing all the meats that I have come across other people feeding. I definately won't buy equal parts of organ/meat! I know it's supposed to only be 10% organ meat.

So the update...

I'm taking the probiotics instead of the dog. :laughing:

Myka had her first raw meal about 30 minutes ago! :thumbs up I haven't gone shopping for her yet, so I just fed her what I had in the freezer. So the lucky hound got scallops!!! :laughing: I fed her two x-large bone-in chicken thighs and one scallop. She thought she died and went to doggy heaven.

She's now attacking her Nylabone for some heavy duty chewing. This is odd...in the last couple years she's gone off her once favourite Nylabones, and now has a Gumabone instead prefering the softer chew. Maybe after the bones in the chicken thighs she's renewed her insterest in the hard chew of the Nylabone!! :laughing:

So I'm going shopping for her today, and will buy some different meats. Unfortunately I don't have a deep freezer, so I won't be able to buy huge amounts at a time, but I think I can fit 20lbs in my freezer.

A new question...she gets breakfast at about 7am, then goes out around anywhere from 10-2, but usually around noon. She gets dinner around 6pm then goes out around 9-10pm. If I'm only feeding one meal raw, and one meal kibble, which one should be which?

want4rain
February 2nd, 2008, 02:35 PM
haha i doubt it will matter in a week or two. when you realize (really really in your heart realize) your dog loves her new raw diet, she wont die from it, there are no more hang ups, you will probably quit the kibble all together. :)

but for now, feed kibble at night and raw in the morning. Mister eats right before bed (we have kids so giving him the night to clean himself up before he hangs out with the kids in the mornign) and takes a dump right as he wakes up.

-ash

Myka
February 2nd, 2008, 03:31 PM
Oh she will probably go onto a full raw diet within a month. :laughing: I just have to "test" the waters first. It's a worrisome thing doing something to your dog that is "different". I don't know anyone in person feeding a raw diet...

MerlinsHope
February 3rd, 2008, 06:35 AM
A new question...she gets breakfast at about 7am, then goes out around anywhere from 10-2, but usually around noon. She gets dinner around 6pm then goes out around 9-10pm. If I'm only feeding one meal raw, and one meal kibble, which one should be which?

I guess that depends on you. Myself I'd feed the raw meal at night because she'd be able to make it to the morning before having to go out, but if you fed the raw meal during the day, there's a good chance that she'll have to 'go', during the day. So depends on your schedule and availablily I suppose.

Are you living in the North? Often in the Winter here if I run out of freezer space I store things outside in a large storage bin. That works for me in the Winter.

Glad to know that your first experiences have gone so well.
That's most encouraging for the both of you.

Myka
February 3rd, 2008, 01:23 PM
We are in southern BC, and I don't think I could rely on a bin outside to stay frozen, but that's a good idea! I'll have to buy a small deep freezer. I've been meaning to anyway, so this is a good excuse. The only problem is finding somewhere to put it.

So this is what Myka had this morning , plus I added a whole egg to it:

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k43/Myka82/Feb32008-1.jpg

Does it look like I'm feeding about the right amount? I'm trying to make it about the same volume as her kibble would have been, but I think that may be overfeeding her a bit. It is one chicken thigh (bone-in), 2 scallops, 1/3 can of green tripe, and a whole egg. She didn't eat the shell of the egg though, so I saved it. I will dry it and I can crush it up, and mix it in with the tripe or something. This is as good as I can do until I find some more meat...hopefully today because she is definately low!

I must say that watching her eat the bone-in chicken thighs yesterday for the first time was very stressful! :eek: She bolts her food, so I was SO worried she'd gulp big chunks, but she did chew it fairly well. Whew!

I was really expecting the tripe to stink, but you guys must be wusses! :laughing: I grew up on a farm, and that tripe did not stink!!! I'm thinking the fresh stuff may be a little stanky though...?

Her poops yesterday were normal, so I'm :crossfingers: that it will stay that way!

want4rain
February 3rd, 2008, 02:10 PM
ROFLMAO i just read your signature! and you are *quite* right about selling their babies LOL!!!

i havent been able to feed canned tripe but there was a whole load of deer stomach (emptied but not rinsed) that went down well. he had a bit of that for a week. my poor blender is now 'not for human consumption' haha!!

if you are worried about her bolting her food, try freezing the ones with bones in them. i would think the bone in the chicken would be enough calcium for today. :)

we feed about 2% of his body weight a day. if he looks chubby we skip a meal, if he (which it hasnt happened yet) gets really chubby we would cut back on portions. he has never really looked too thin. healthy chub yeah but never 'too' thin.

-ashley

Myka
February 3rd, 2008, 09:08 PM
Got some children to sell want4rain? :laughing:

So, I'm wondering about this whole bone issue... aren't chicken and fish the only meats that have bones small enough for them to digest?

I had a bit of success shopping today, and have accumulated a few contacts for butchers who work with the farmers locally. So that should help bring costs down I think...I hope. :pray:

I bought a whole "picnic pork shoulder" for $1/lb, but once I removed the bone and all the seriously excess fat I bet it was more like $2-2.25/lb. The clostest thing to whole fish I could find were Smelts (no heads, no guts), and they were $8/lb. Not a good buy, but I had to get some sort of fish for her, and it was the only fish I could find that had the bones in and tail still on... :frustrated: I bought some Beef Liver for $2.50/lb, and some whole fryer chickens for $1/lb, but once I removed the skin, and threw away the back it was probably more like $1.25/lb.

I'm hearing that I can buy a 1/2 side of beef cut and wrapped for about $1.40/lb from "naturally" fed farmers. So that might be a good choice. But holy wowzers that's a LOT of beef!!

I'm REALLY hoping I can find cheaper prices in the very near future!!! :eek:

I don't eat vey much meat, and really dislike touching raw meats, so by the time I was done cutting everything up and putting it in the freezer for her I was feeling ill. :o

Still no diarrhea, although the beginning of her morning poo started off a bit goo-ey. :yuck:

MerlinsHope
February 4th, 2008, 08:20 AM
It's hard to say about the portion because it depends on the size and activity level of your dog. Anywhere between 2-4% of their body weight can be considered acceptable.

Again, if she bolts her food serve large pieces, always go larger. What you have in the bowl is small.

A kibble dog usually walks up to it's bowl , leans over, and eats.

On the other paw, a raw dog walks up to it's food, stands on it, jumps on it, lays on it, and starts pulling and tearing, or holds it between it's paws and hunkers down for a, 'paws-on', eating session. You want them to eat that way so that they re-learn how to properly masticate their foods. Think BIG pieces. You will never go wrong that way. Raw feeding does not mean they should walk up to their bowl, lean over and eat it like kibble.

Good luck!:thumbs up

MerlinsHope
February 4th, 2008, 08:25 AM
aren't chicken and fish the only meats that have bones small enough for them to digest

No. any bone that they can pulverize is good bone.
There are nutritional bones and there are recreational type bones, w hich are usually the large 'weight bearing', bones in large animals, but all smaller bones including ribs are very consumable.

If you are squeamish in touching raw meat, all the more reason to serve large pieces, it's less handling for you and better for your baby.

Myka
February 4th, 2008, 09:14 AM
If I give her larger pieces though, she won't be getting a variety, and she's only getting raw for one feeding a day.

I went to get her a last little bag of kibble and all three stores were out, so maybe that's a sign... :laughing:

pitgrrl
February 4th, 2008, 10:00 AM
I don't eat vey much meat, and really dislike touching raw meats, so by the time I was done cutting everything up and putting it in the freezer for her I was feeling ill. :o


Don't worry, you'll get over that. I've been a vegetarian for 26 of my 28 years and I spent yesterday afternoon cutting up a huge cow liver, dividing up a kidney, and packaging chicken into manageable portions. It was fun!:D

want4rain
February 4th, 2008, 11:24 AM
your variety doesnt have to come in a day, look at weeks instead. switch food up daily or by meal to keep 'variety'. try to get a 'complete' diet in a week (meaning organ to bone to meat ratio). Mister should only eat half a chicken in a day, sometimes we give him the entire chicken, let him eat what he will and then bury the rest for the next day. he usually eats 3/4 of the chicken the first day and the the other 1/4 the next morning, we skip giving him more those days because he busted a gut the day before.

-ash

Myka
February 4th, 2008, 09:12 PM
Don't worry, you'll get over that. I've been a vegetarian for 26 of my 28 years and I spent yesterday afternoon cutting up a huge cow liver, dividing up a kidney, and packaging chicken into manageable portions. It was fun!:D

The chicken bothers me more than anything because you can easily see all the muscles. It feels like I am mutilating a body...oh wait, I AM! :yuck:

your variety doesnt have to come in a day, look at weeks instead. switch food up daily or by meal to keep 'variety'. try to get a 'complete' diet in a week (meaning organ to bone to meat ratio). Mister should only eat half a chicken in a day, sometimes we give him the entire chicken, let him eat what he will and then bury the rest for the next day. he usually eats 3/4 of the chicken the first day and the the other 1/4 the next morning, we skip giving him more those days because he busted a gut the day before.

That's a good idea. I'm not sure if I'm feeding her too much or too little yet. I'll be watching her weight...

want4rain
February 4th, 2008, 09:22 PM
chicken gets easier when you find the right places to chop it up quickly. :) with a little practice, i can hack the breast into 4 pieces, cut off the wings, legs and then cut the back into 3 pieces in under 3 minutes now... well if my knife is sharp! when i first started hacking up chicken.... it was messy. i was worried about chewing bones so i would.... smash them. with a big sledge hammer. in my kitchen... under a towel. it was really really icky until one day i was bring it home and had a bit of road rage to vent. those next few chickens were a bloody smear on my beach towel. :o

-ashley

Myka
February 4th, 2008, 11:52 PM
chicken gets easier when you find the right places to chop it up quickly. :) with a little practice, i can hack the breast into 4 pieces, cut off the wings, legs and then cut the back into 3 pieces in under 3 minutes now... well if my knife is sharp! when i first started hacking up chicken.... it was messy. i was worried about chewing bones so i would.... smash them. with a big sledge hammer. in my kitchen... under a towel. it was really really icky until one day i was bring it home and had a bit of road rage to vent. those next few chickens were a bloody smear on my beach towel. :o

-ashley

OMG!! :laughing: Well I didn't do that...it probably takes me a good 5-6 minutes to get the legs and wings off, break the backend of the back off, cut the breasts off the frontend of the back (toss the frontend of the back), and de-skin it all. And about 1 1/2 minutes to feel queasy...the first "crunch" gets me. :yuck:

It took me about 30 minutes to hack all the meat off the bone of the picnic pork shoulder or rump, not sure which end it was. That was pretty gross too...I didn't like the tendons. Boy was there A LOT of fat on the pork! I think I kept probably only 50% of the weight of it in meat.

I didn't save the bone for her to chew on...too much fat, and I heard that big bones can chip their teeth...? Both of her canine teeth have been dead for years, plus a little tooth in the front, so hard aggressive chewing is not the greatest idea for her. Also, no where for her to chew on a messy bone like that.

Love4himies
February 5th, 2008, 10:02 AM
chicken gets easier when you find the right places to chop it up quickly. :) with a little practice, i can hack the breast into 4 pieces, cut off the wings, legs and then cut the back into 3 pieces in under 3 minutes now... well if my knife is sharp! when i first started hacking up chicken.... it was messy. i was worried about chewing bones so i would.... smash them. with a big sledge hammer. in my kitchen... under a towel. it was really really icky until one day i was bring it home and had a bit of road rage to vent. those next few chickens were a bloody smear on my beach towel. :o

-ashley

Ashley, you crack me up :laughing:

Myka
February 6th, 2008, 11:40 PM
So on Sunday I went to get Myka a small bag of kibble to carry on feeding her the one cup of kibble in the evenings. Well, I went to three stores and they ALL were out of her kibble. So I figured that was an omen... :laughing: She had the last of her kibble lastnight, and today was her first day off 100% raw. :thumbs up

She's doing very well...no digestive issues what so ever. Her nasty gas seems to have minimized or maybe even gone away completely. :D She isn't even gobbling her food anymore now that she can't! :laughing: One thing though is that she doesn't seem to understand that she's been fed. She still follows me around looking to be fed after she's had her raw meal. I think I'm feeding her enough... :shrug:

want4rain
February 7th, 2008, 07:08 AM
:laughing: One thing though is that she doesn't seem to understand that she's been fed. She still follows me around looking to be fed after she's had her raw meal. I think I'm feeding her enough... :shrug:

thats so funny!! im sure she will catch on eventually!! i went meat shopping on tuesday and thought of you. picked up pigs feet(1pkg of 6 halves), kidney(1), turkey legs(2)/wings(2), beef liver(slices?), beef tongue(1 whole), heart(1 whole), and cheek meat(3lbs), chicken liver(1 bucket), gizzards/heart(2 packages mix).

i like the beef heart, tongue and cheek meat because its still in the same $2 price range as most of the other cheap steaks but its ALL meat. they are also high use muscles so they have a high taurine content. i probably spent $44 on all of it? which i use to supplement his whole chicken. for each whole chicken (every 3rd day) he gets one of these packages of 2 or more meats/organs.

-ashley

Myka
February 7th, 2008, 09:13 AM
Good ideas on the meats. I'm going to go haunt the meat markets this weekend again. I gotta try the Asian market...I just have to figure out where it is! :laughing:

I think Myka thinks the raw food is a treat, and she should still get the kibble! Funny doggie! There is no kibble in the house right now, so she's out of luck! :D

I've noticed she's only pooping once a day now. Just one small turd in the evening. Is this normal?

want4rain
February 7th, 2008, 10:44 AM
Mister only poops once a day and its 1/3 the size of his kibble poops. after about a day it turns white, 2 days its crumbled back into the ground. i try to get out there to pick poop up daily but i know i dont find most of them, they just fall apart so quickly and we leave the leaves on the ground here. :shrug: thankfully its once a month we add fresh leaves back into his fence.

-ashley

geisha
February 7th, 2008, 05:12 PM
I've been feeding my sams raw in the am and kibble in the pm and can't believe how formed and little their poops are. I wish my gals had rock hard stomachs like your's. White fur and splarts yuck!!! Oh yes and I've stopped giving the older gal digestive enzymes & probiotics. Thanks for that.:thumbs up

Myka
February 7th, 2008, 08:01 PM
Awesome! It does make sense that the poops would be smaller and less often considering there should be much less waste with raw meats than with kibble.

I've found now that she's getting used to her raw diet that she is getting a bit pickier...she doesn't care for the Smelts, but will eat them. Maybe a different fish will be tastier for her. I think I'm going to start feeding less variety in each feeding so that she only has one option each meal...hoping that might nip any pickiness in the bud...?

Myka
February 7th, 2008, 10:57 PM
OMG she has the worst gas tonight!!! :yuck:

Myka
February 9th, 2008, 12:18 AM
Myka didn't finish her breakfast this morning. She only ate the small slice of beef liver, about 1/5th can of Tripett, and an egg. She left the chicken leg, chicken breast, and the Smelt. So I gave her the chicken pieces, and the smelt for dinner. She chewed on them, but didn't eat much at all. She also didn't poop at all today, although she is peeing fine, and is drinking fine. Her not eating is VERY odd...she's a little pig.

Should I be worried about something or is she just being picky? :confused:

want4rain
February 9th, 2008, 01:22 PM
i wouldnt worry about it if she is eating SOMETHING and not acting funny. she will get around to accepting dinners as jsut that.... not some weird treat moms giving her. you could try lightly cooking a little piece of it to bring out the flavor?? turn your frying pan on high, add a touch of olive oil and just touch a small portion of the meat to the pan for a few seconds. let it cool before she eats it.

-ashley

Myka
February 9th, 2008, 09:04 PM
Ok, so this morning I gave her the "leftovers" again, and she ate ONE of the pieces of chicken, but not the other piece or the smelt. She pooped this afternoon though, just a tiny little turd. So I again fed her the leftovers tonight, and AGAIN she just chewed on them a bit, and then begged for different food. :frustrated: I tossed them out this time since they're a couple days old, and she'd chewed on them several times.

I found some whole (not even gutted!) Mackerel at the Asian market for $2/lb, so I'll try that instead tomorrow along with some new pieces of chicken.

If she's still not eating tomorrow I'll try cooking it a little...but I'd rather not. I don't think she'd starve herself to death...? :laughing:

MerlinsHope
February 10th, 2008, 05:53 AM
Myka didn't finish her breakfast this morning. She only ate the small slice of beef liver, about 1/5th can of Tripett, and an egg. She left the chicken leg, chicken breast, and the Smelt. So I gave her the chicken pieces, and the smelt for dinner. She chewed on them, but didn't eat much at all. She also didn't poop at all today, although she is peeing fine, and is drinking fine. Her not eating is VERY odd...she's a little pig.

Should I be worried about something or is she just being picky? :confused:

Myka
Glad to know you're getting the diet going. You don't have to worry. Raw dogs eat a lot less... a lot less. I don't think she's being picky, she's probably just full. Also buy now, I'm sure her jaw is probably sore from all the exercise she's getting. I have noticed there seems to be a 10 days process where by the muscles around the jaw are swollen and sore sometimes from this mastication exercise. This is normal. Dogs won't starve themselves on purpose. That's where fasting comes in. Let her fast, give her a recreational bone and the next day, try to feed her. There is nothing wrong with what you are describing.

Please don't coat or cook raw foods attempting to change flavours. This isn't a good practice and defeats the purpose of a good raw diet. Your dog will eat when she's hungry again.

want4rain
February 10th, 2008, 09:31 AM
I'm sure her jaw is probably sore from all the exercise she's getting. I have noticed there seems to be a 10 days process where by the muscles around the jaw are swollen and sore sometimes from this mastication exercise.

huh, i hadnt thoguht of that.

-ash

Myka
February 10th, 2008, 11:47 AM
Myka
Glad to know you're getting the diet going. You don't have to worry. Raw dogs eat a lot less... a lot less. I don't think she's being picky, she's probably just full. Also buy now, I'm sure her jaw is probably sore from all the exercise she's getting. I have noticed there seems to be a 10 days process where by the muscles around the jaw are swollen and sore sometimes from this mastication exercise. This is normal. Dogs won't starve themselves on purpose. That's where fasting comes in. Let her fast, give her a recreational bone and the next day, try to feed her. There is nothing wrong with what you are describing.

Please don't coat or cook raw foods attempting to change flavours. This isn't a good practice and defeats the purpose of a good raw diet. Your dog will eat when she's hungry again.


Awesome, thanks! :thumbs up

I never thought of her possibly being sore in her jaw. She does chew her toys/rubber bones a lot though. Ya, I don't really want to cook the foods at all, that's a pain in the butt, and I don't want her to really get used to that. You might be right that she's just not that hungry...she isn't acting overly hungry during the day. She really likes the pork chunks (although they gave her gas, probably because pork is so fatty), so I'm wondering if it's the bone in the meat that's putting her off...?

This morning I fed her a whole Mackerel (about 8" including tail), a chicken leg (thigh & drumstick), and a small slice of beef liver. She loves the liver. She ate that first. She chewed on the drumstick end of the chicken leg, but didn't actually eat much of it. She chewed on the Mackerel's tail for quite a while, but didn't eat much more than just the tail. She definately likes the Mackerel more than the smelts, so that's good because they are better fish for her AND cheaper!!! :D

Myka
February 10th, 2008, 10:28 PM
Ok, now I'm starting to get worried...I gave her the leftovers from this morning (a chicken leg, and a Mackerel, both slightly chewed on), and all she did was sniff them and walk away. She's seeming a bit on the mellow/depressed side today. I felt her belly and she doesn't seem to mind. She took two tiny turds today which were fairly soft, but not diarrhea.

I added a couple pieces of Beef liver, and she ate that.

Maybe I should give up and put her on an Ultra grade kibble instead...? At what point do you give up?

Any thoughts?

MerlinsHope
February 11th, 2008, 05:42 AM
She's either NOT hungry - or - she's decided to become picky. She will let you know when she is hungry. Be consistent. A meal time, give her a meal. If she doesn't eat it, take it away, but don't give her anything else... no cookies, no goodies, no nothing. With raw one doesn't give up because their dog isn't eating. When she's hungry she'll eat. Dogs don't starve themselves on purpose. What she's doing right now is making decisions and if you buy into them you will spoil her permanently.
Best
Kathy

want4rain
February 11th, 2008, 07:35 AM
are you weighing what you feed her?? can you give a guess as to how much it is relative to how much she weighs?? it sure sounds like you are feeding her a lot!

Mister weighs 95lbs, last night he got two chicken wings, 1/4 cow tongue, and a 1/4 cup of beef liver. he ate the liver, the wings but buried the tongue for this morning.

he use to eat roughly 2-3% of his body weight daily but lately here its closer to 1%. he's a little chunky. :)

also, keep in mind that dogs are safely able to fast for 4-5 days, possibly longer. if she is eating SOMETHING, she is fine, you know its food related.

also(-correct me if im wrong!), she has been fed processed kibble all her life. i woudlnt be surprised if she doesnt have a mild case food poisoning. dogs are fully capable of digesting raw meat but from kibble, it takes some time for pH adjustment, intestinal adjustment.... etc. some dogs adjust quicker than others, some just take a while. :) have some patience. she will get over it.

-ashley

Myka
February 11th, 2008, 09:18 AM
Ok, ok... I won't give up yet. She hasn't properly eaten since Thursday, so I thought that was need for concern. All she's eaten in that time is a few small slices of beef liver, an egg, and 1/5th can of Tripett. She HAS to be hungry.

Oh, and this morning I confirmed that it IS in fact her being picky about not wanting meat with bones in it as I fed her a chunk of pork and she gobbled it all up. :o She still turned her nose up at the Mackerel and chicken, but back to the fish and chicken until she eats it I guess. :(

I would guess that she's being fed somewhere between 1.5-2 lbs between two meals, and she weighs 75lbs. She doesn't have all day to chew on her meals either. She has to eat when she's fed.

How long can meats be refridgerated before it goes bad? I thawed that chicken last Tuesday I think...

want4rain
February 11th, 2008, 09:30 AM
How long can meats be refridgerated before it goes bad? I thawed that chicken last Tuesday I think...

*coughs* well..... um..... thats debatable. Mister, often times, prefers his old and stinky. if its not old and stinky enough he buries it for the night and eats it old and stinky in the morning. we have developed a nose for whats too old. while he likes eating it like that... he throws it up. *sigh* his beef has to be old, his chicken fresh (still frozen preferably) most of the time... sometimes he buries that and eats it the next day. fish, eggs, pork, lamb, turkey all have to still be human consumable. a deer head hung around for 2 days this fall (night time temp of 35F, day time of 50F) before he dug into it and then it was with relish for 2 days. ew!!

-ash

Myka
February 11th, 2008, 08:31 PM
OMG!!! *barf*

My 3 yo niece was visiting for the last week, and even though Myka likes pets and hugs from her, she doesn't like that my niece steals attention. So, now that my niece is gone Myka is back to her old self (not depressed seeming), BUT she still didn't eat her Mackerel & chicken dinner. :rolleyes: I'm just going to keep feeding it to her morning and night until she eats it. :frustrated:

MerlinsHope
February 12th, 2008, 05:04 AM
Stay strong Myrka.... stay strong.... don't give in... fight hard and don't let her win... she's trying to teach you what she likes... and what she doesn't like. Be diligent.


Want4rain, one of mine really loves her meat aged. She often buries it somewhere in the garden and a few days later when it's crawling with creepy crawlies, she sits down to a nice meal.

My neighbour is a butcher and told if that if the bone is removed, meat can last up to 10 days and longer when refrigerated. It's the bone that starts to rot - then causes the meat to sour. As a matter of fact he told me that if meat lasts a shorter time in the fridge, it wasn't fresh to begin with, it may have already been sitting at the butcher shop for almost 10 days.

ANyways... don't quit yet Myrka... you've come too far and have studied too long and are trying tooo hard... don't let her winnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!:cry:

Myka
February 12th, 2008, 09:03 AM
LOL!!! Well, Myka got the Mackerel and chicken leg again this morning...and hardly even sniffed it. Looked at me like I was stupid. :laughing:

Myka
February 13th, 2008, 08:11 PM
SHE ATE!!!! :thumbs up

I won! :laughing: I came home and realised she has lost noticable weight. I called her a silly skinny dog. Then I fed her a bone in chicken breast, and SHE ATE IT!!! :eek: Holy wowzers. So I gave her a bone in chicken (lower) back, and she ate that too! :eek::eek::eek:

:lightbulb: I have decided to only feed her one meat each day. I figure this is a good idea because she won't be able to choose which she likes and which she doesn't, plus that makes it so that every day is different for her. If she chooses not to eat something, then she gets it at the next meal, and then the next until she eats it. She'll learn that she doesn't have a choice. I guess I could always give her one piece of meat, let her eat it, then add one more meat, let her eat it, and continue for as long as she's hungry...?

So tomorrow morning is Mackerel day. :D This hound WILL eat Mackerel!!!!!!!!!! .........at some point.

And here I was going to go on Saturday to look at the different ultra grade kibble to put her on... :o

MerlinsHope
February 14th, 2008, 06:18 AM
:thumbs up:loser:
.......... together............. we did it!!!! *whew* :grouphug:

*clap* *clap* *clap*

Myka
February 14th, 2008, 09:00 AM
:laughing: Merlin's Hope!!!

Well, today she looks totally dejected, miserable. She's still a bit sore from pulling a tendon a few weeks back, so I think she's feeling pretty sorry for herself right now. When I fed her she didn't even look interested...didn't even pick her head up from the couch. I hate it when she's like this...makes me feel SO bad for her. So we'll try the Mackerel tonight again...hopefully she'll actually look!!

Myka
February 14th, 2008, 09:08 PM
So apparently she has reason to be miserable acting...she now has this very large soft, overly warm, lump on the one side of her jowl/neck. She's acting like she has a fever (panting), and her ears feel hot. Her gums look good. So she's off to the vet tomorrow... :sick:

On the flip side, she ate most of the Mackerel (she left the guts and the head), so I gave her several chunks of boneless pork amounting to a little over 1 lb. Good doggie... :lovestruck:

MerlinsHope
February 16th, 2008, 09:36 AM
Oh boy... hope she's ok.
Does she play with other dogs?

I have one here who was fine and then all of a sudden one day, just like yours, she had a huge clump of pus under her chin. It was from playing with another dog about a week earlier!!!!

Let us know.
Keeping paws crossed that all is ok.

Myka
February 16th, 2008, 01:31 PM
Oh boy... hope she's ok.
Does she play with other dogs?

I have one here who was fine and then all of a sudden one day, just like yours, she had a huge clump of pus under her chin. It was from playing with another dog about a week earlier!!!!

Let us know.
Keeping paws crossed that all is ok.

I made a thread about her lump here: http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=547834&posted=1#post547834

She doesn't play with other dogs. She doesn't like dogs, but thanks for the thought!

She's been getting boneless pork and beef liver this week and eating well because she likes these ones. She was weighed at the vet 3 weeks ago, and then again on Friday, and she lost 5 lbs in that 3 weeks from being picky and not eating!! :frustrated:

Myka
February 17th, 2008, 12:43 PM
I don't know if any of you guys are familiar with the high-end dog & cat food & supply chain store called Bone Apetit? www.boneapetit.ca :dog:

There are two of them here, and I went to go check them out yesterday. One is obviously much nicer than the other. They have these "logs" of ground bone-in chicken. I bought one for Myka to try out as it would eliminate me having to cut up the chicken carcasses which makes me feel ill. I should have asked them more questions though, like what percentage of skin/bone/meat. The logs work out to about $1.50/lb.

I also bought Dog Nip! Catch of the Day wild Salmon oil. "Only one ingredient." It stinks! :yuck: Since Myka has really put up a fuss about eating Mackerel I figured I could supplement with a bit of this oil. I'm also going to try gutting the Mackerels to see if she'll eat them then. :shrug:

Myka also got spoiled with a pink camo harness by Ezy Dog www.ezydog.com with a matching pink bone dog tag since I got a new phone number. She looks good in pink... :lovestruck:

rainbow
February 17th, 2008, 01:28 PM
There are two of them here, and I went to go check them out yesterday. One is obviously much nicer than the other.

Did the "not so nice one" have a sign on the door that said something like "I'm only nice to one customer a day...today is not your day". If so, I was at that one and have never met such an unpleasant woman in my life.

I also bought Dog Nip! Catch of the Day wild Salmon oil. "Only one ingredient."

If it doesn't contain Vitamin E with the salmon oil then you are going to have to supplement vit e several days a week as well. Salmon oil depletes a dogs body of it.

Myka also got spoiled with a pink camo harness by Ezy Dog www.ezydog.com with a matching pink bone dog tag since I got a new phone number. She looks good in pink...:lovestruck:

Ahem....could we have pics please. :D I don't think you've ever posted pics in the Photo Forum here and we would love to see pics of Myka. :thumbs up

MerlinsHope
February 18th, 2008, 01:12 PM
Did the "not so nice one" have a

If it doesn't contain Vitamin E with the salmon oil then you are going to have to supplement vit e several days a week as well. Salmon oil depletes a dogs body of it.


Just for clarification fish oils (not necessarily salmon oils), and especially vegetable oils are the oils to be avoided, and essentially what you're saying is only profound in true working or performance dogs that exceed normal activity levels.
Most premium dog foods contain many times the recommended 20 IU of vitamin E per kilogram of diet. However, most commercially available dry foods are supplemented with fresh meat and fats prior to feeding and this dilutes the vitamin E that comes in the commercially prepared dog food. The practice of adding vegetable and fish oils, which contain polyunsaturated fatty acids, to these commercially prepared dog foods also results in dietary vitamin E being used up at a faster rate. Vitamin E is used by the body to keep theses polyunsaturated fatty acids from becoming rancid. This is not a problem as long as the total diet (dry food, fresh meats and added fats) has adequate vitamin E.

People are often too quick to jump into supplementations. The addition of a capsule a day of salmon oil will not deplete the body of vitamin E.

Best
merlin

MerlinsHope
February 18th, 2008, 01:19 PM
They have these "logs" of ground bone-in chicken. I bought one for Myka to try out as it would eliminate me having to cut up the chicken carcasses which makes me feel ill. I should have asked them more questions though, like what percentage of skin/bone/meat. The logs work out to about $1.50/lb.

Myrka, if you can, please avoid the logs. Ground food does not substitute for solid food, certainly not in the long term. Also, chances are good that this product contains additives. You may want to really examine the contents.

If you really find that you are having issues with raw, there is nothing wrong with premium dog food, that doesn't stop you from giving your dog a bone once in a while. Actually it is much better to subscribe to premium kibble, than hokey raw. Perhaps you are just not ready to take the plunge yet, and there is nothing to be ashamed of about that.

Cheers
Merlin

pitgrrl
February 18th, 2008, 02:27 PM
Myrka, if you can, please avoid the logs. Ground food does not substitute for solid food, certainly not in the long term. Also, chances are good that this product contains additives. You may want to really examine the contents.

If you really find that you are having issues with raw, there is nothing wrong with premium dog food, that doesn't stop you from giving your dog a bone once in a while. Actually it is much better to subscribe to premium kibble, than hokey raw. Perhaps you are just not ready to take the plunge yet, and there is nothing to be ashamed of about that.

Cheers
Merlin

Merlin, would you be able to perhaps expand on the idea that a good kibble is preferable to a diet consisting of good quality meat, bone, organs from a variety of sources, but that may include ground meats, some supplementation, etc?

It would seem that, although one might miss out on certain benefits from using, ground meat say, or be getting something from an imperfect whole source, with fish oil rather than whole fish as an example, would the very fact that it is less highly processed than kibble and uses far more whole sources of nutrients as compared to any kibble I've seen not still make it a better choice?

The criticisms you seem to have of what people include in their raw feeding seem equally true of pretty well all kibbles (and add to that the processing, lack of safety which seems inherent to feeding kibble these days, etc.)? Why then go on to suggest going back to kibble?

luckypenny
February 18th, 2008, 09:07 PM
Are these frozen logs? And the name of the company that produces them?

Myka
February 18th, 2008, 09:20 PM
The Salmon oil doesn't have any Vitamin E added to it. It's just pure Salmon oil. I'll have to check into this Vitamin E issue more...

When I was at the two Bone Apetit stores, the women from both stores were VERY concerned that Myka isn't getting any veggies or fruit other than what's in the Tripett. They were also VERY concerned that I was feeding Myka pork. They said that pork is like feeding candy because it's so high in fat. I cut ALL the solid chunks of fat off the pork. Is any of this true???

Did the "not so nice one" have a sign on the door that said something like "I'm only nice to one customer a day...today is not your day". If so, I was at that one and have never met such an unpleasant woman in my life.

I didn't notice actually. The better one was down on Pandosy near KLO. Very nice lady there. :)

Ahem....could we have pics please. :D I don't think you've ever posted pics in the Photo Forum here and we would love to see pics of Myka. :thumbs up

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=49123

I took some pics of her new harness, but she's sick and looks horrid. I'll check my camera and see if they're any good! :)

Myrka, if you can, please avoid the logs. Ground food does not substitute for solid food, certainly not in the long term. Also, chances are good that this product contains additives. You may want to really examine the contents.

If you really find that you are having issues with raw, there is nothing wrong with premium dog food, that doesn't stop you from giving your dog a bone once in a while. Actually it is much better to subscribe to premium kibble, than hokey raw. Perhaps you are just not ready to take the plunge yet, and there is nothing to be ashamed of about that.

I did check to make sure the logs are 100% chicken. There are no preservatives, no additives. There is a version you can buy with some veggies (peas and carrots), but I bought the plain chicken one. I do have a few concerns about the logs...one being exactly what parts of the chicken go into it (I'm worried about a high concentration of necks and backs which are mostly bone), and the fact that ground meats are more susceptible to bacterias.

Myka isn't being fed these logs exclusively...don't think that. She gets quite a variety. I'm also going to try gutting the Mackerel to see if she'll eat more than just the back half that way. With her being sick (infection of some sort), it's important that she's getting food in her as she's lost a little over 5 lbs in the last week and a half. Her appetite is real good now that she's feeling better though! :D

I am considering putting her on Ebo Innova and supplimenting with Tripett. I forgot to check what the bag of Ebo costs though...

Myka
February 18th, 2008, 09:33 PM
Are these frozen logs? And the name of the company that produces them?

They're frozen...I'm not sure who makes them. I understood it was local butchers...? The logs don't have any writing or stickers on them....which concerns me as you don't know the date they were packaged on. I'm going to look into it A LOT more before I buy another one. Myka does LOVE the logs though...

luckypenny
February 18th, 2008, 09:47 PM
It would be a good idea to get in writing the exact ingredients in these logs including percentage of bone, meat, fat, organs, etc.

I've been feeding pork to our three dogs (approx. 2x per week) and sometimes the fat is as high as 15-20%. We've never had a problem with pork. If Myka is med-high energy and gets plenty of exercise, I wouldn't worry about the extra fat. It's natural afterall, not processed. It may help her put back on the extra weight she has lost. Just increase the amounts slowly to give her digestive system time to adjust.

As for the mackeral...have you tried feeding it to her frozen? One of our dogs refuses to eat fresh or thawed fish. But he'll eat frozen sardines (he'll only leave the tail and head behaind to share with our girls :rolleyes:).

MerlinsHope
February 19th, 2008, 05:55 AM
I do have a few concerns about the logs.

and so you should.


Ironically, if they are 100% chicken with no additives, I personally don't see the rational in purchasing this over purchasing an actual piece of chicken at a much better value, and again, your dog needs to chew food.

LP suggested freezing the mackerel which really does help sometimes. Please bear in mind that you are not limited to mackerel> You can try salmon, trout, sardines, anchovies, herring or smelt. Why not try canned????

Merlin

want4rain
February 19th, 2008, 07:53 AM
on the note of fruits and veggies, most folks feed them because it makes us feel better. in no way, shape or form do you NEED it in their diet. which doesnt mean there isnt soemthing good in them either. your dog just doesnt NEED it. if you decide to feed fruit/veggie/dairy, make sure its less than 10% of her total diet and pureed or juiced. Mister likes V8. :) i use it in one of my soups.

also be aware that canned anythign has salt in it so drain out the juice (as much as im tempted to use it!!) and feed sparingly. ours get canned fish once a week because i have to hide liver in it but im uncomfortable with it.

i dont feel feeding a hodge podge is bad as long as your concept is the same, variety of cuts, variety of meats, organs in variety, bone. of course feeding organically raised whole prey, species appropriate etc etc.... but lets face it, WE dont even eat as well as we should. to say that feeding kibble, with as processed as it is, is healthier than a raw meat chimera is a little silly in my mind.

on the subject of ground meats, one of the lines touted by raw feeders is that our dogs can handle the bacteria present on raw meats. im not entirely sure wht the difference in bacteria present on ground meats are any different than unground other than quantity and if they ahve the ability differentiate the difference in numbers between ground raw or unground raw.... it sounds to me like the difference between 100 rice grains and 110 rice grains.

there are MANY points in raw feeding that are very important, from the need to chew and rend the food apart for bile production and dental hygiene to the general idea of whole prey model (ie ratio of bone/meat/organ) but there isnt a vast difference between the PERFECT (ie feeding only a 2lb rabbit/squirrel/bird whole, unaltered to a 95lb dog daily) whole prey model and the kind of chimera feeding most current raw feeders do. there IS a vast difference between feeding raw meat and kibble. as long as you keep in mind variety variety VARIETY!! you should be just fine.

Merlin'sHope, i hope you dont take this criticism the wrong way. regardless of how tight ANY of the members are here, no one holds anythign against each other unless its outright abuse. our philosophies may not be exactly the same but they are close enough and i greatly respect your advice, point of view and experience on raw feeding. if i had the money, resources and time to feed the way you do i would, unquestionably, but its just not an option right now.

-ashley

MerlinsHope
February 19th, 2008, 08:02 AM
Ashley! no offense taken at all! I'm old enough to realize not everyone has the same available budget, and you seem savvy enough to realize that variety makes up for many evils! and yes, there are plenty of ways to feed a raw diet. I totally agree.

Kudoes

FYI - to explain the ground meat issue, the caveat is that ground meat sits on the table and in the grinder longer so it is suseptible to growing bacteria. This all has to do with the amount of time it actually sits in the grinder.

This is not the same as if you went to a butcher, ordered some meat and had it ground. It would be ground, then immediately removed and packaged. Apparently this is not the case in large abbatoirs.

Cheers
Merlin

MerlinsHope
February 19th, 2008, 08:06 AM
I took some pics of her new harness, but she's sick and looks horrid. I'll check my camera and see if they're any good!

Boy she's very beautiful!!!!
Thanks for sharing the nice pictures.
MM

Myka
February 19th, 2008, 09:04 PM
luckypenny: Yes, I'm going to check out the logs MUCH closer when I go back next time. Myka is very high energy. I'm out of Mackerel right now, but I'll try feeding it frozen next time.

want4rain: Thanks for all that info! Myka does get quite a variety. Although I haven't been able to find beef at a reasonable price, so she hasn't had any beef other than beef liver. :shrug:

MerlinsHope: I've tried smelt as well, and she didn't like smelt either. She's a bit more interested in the Mackerel. I haven't tried any canned fish since the cans cost $2-4 and are tiny!!!

The point in purchasing the log is because Myka will eat it. She hasn't eaten all day because she refuses to eat the bone-in chicken leg I gave her at each feeding. She needs to get her to eat bone. She won't eat fish with bone or chicken with bone, so I figure this is a passable way to do it, albeit not the best.

The chicken log was $1.50/lb which is pretty darn cheap if you ask me. Although I can buy whole chickens for $1/lb (skinny little buggers though), and I could ask the butcher to grind them...there's a :lightbulb:. I suppose I could ask him to grind the fish too...

MerlinsHope
February 20th, 2008, 12:35 PM
The point in purchasing the log is because Myka will eat it. She hasn't eaten all day because she refuses to eat the bone-in chicken leg I gave her at each feeding. She needs to get her to eat bone. She won't eat fish with bone or chicken with bone, so I figure this is a passable way to do it, albeit not the best.

Myrka will also eat alpo, roadkill and many other things that may present themself to her. Dogs are not discerning eaters. I'm sorry to hear that you feel you've reached a point that you have to succumb to commercial raw. It's very much like commercial kibble. Not everything has to be marked on the label and if she prefers it over a simple piece of chicken, well, the chances are excellent that there is more in that package than just chicken. Those sausages in no way can replicate an appropriate raw diet.

On one hand though, you're kind of saying that cutting up chicken is making you ill.

You haven't really given yourself or your dog much time to adjust to this new diet, and it does take time. Raw feeding is so different. Like we've been trying to tell you, a hungry dog won't starve itself. I hope you'll find a way of getting over the humps that works out for both of you.


Merlin

Myka
February 20th, 2008, 09:51 PM
On one hand though, you're kind of saying that cutting up chicken is making you ill.

You haven't really given yourself or your dog much time to adjust to this new diet, and it does take time. Raw feeding is so different. Like we've been trying to tell you, a hungry dog won't starve itself. I hope you'll find a way of getting over the humps that works out for both of you.


Merlin

Yep, cutting up chicken makes me feel ill. I can handle the pork and beef, but chicken looks too human with all the muscles intact. :yuck:

Well it's day two of her doing no more than chewing on the chicken leg a bit. She went 5 days no eating last time I tried to feed her a chicken leg, and I threw the leg away...

rainbow
February 21st, 2008, 01:36 AM
Thanks for posting the link to Myka's pics.....she is gorgeous. :lovestruck:

I think that five days is much too long for a dog to go without food. :eek: I would feed her anything that she will eat especially since she is sick. :sad:

Myka
February 21st, 2008, 09:11 PM
Yay!! I found beef at a (kind of) decent price! $3/lb. I bought a 2.1 kg sirloin tip roast "chunk". Ooooooooo she likes it!!! :D I cut some steaks off it for me too! :laughing: I also found Pork sirloin roasts for $1.49/lb. I figure that is probably a better price than the $1/lb bone-in picnic pork shoulder since I ended up throwing away at LEAST 1/2 of it as fat and bone.

I find out Myka will eat "whole" chicken if it's deboned. I fed Myka her "recycled" piece of chicken leg this evening, and she barely sniffed it, and went and layed down. So I cut the meat off the bone for her, and she ate it without hesitation. :frustrated:

So maybe what I should do, is buy roaster chickens and get them ground by the butcher. I'll see if she'll eat that. I'm worried about the amount of skin and fat though...is that a concern?

I gave her some of those sample packs of Ebo Innova today as well... :o

Thanks for posting the link to Myka's pics.....she is gorgeous. :lovestruck:

I think that five days is much too long for a dog to go without food. :eek: I would feed her anything that she will eat especially since she is sick. :sad:

Thanks! I think she's awfully perdy too! :lovestruck:

Ya, so what do I do if she will starve herself for 5 days instead of eating something I offer?

MerlinsHope
February 22nd, 2008, 05:50 AM
buy roaster chickens and get them ground by the butcher.

Myrka, Raw feeding isn't about ground meat... you have to pull away from that concept. Try other meats instead. You have to serve a variety of meat and fish in order to offer valuable nutrition to your dog. there's pork, lamb, beef, plenty of other meats you can offer.

Yesterday at Metro/Provigo large pork roasts were on sale for 99c/lb.
I bought two dozen roasts that averaged 3.00 each. that's a lot of quality meat and bone.

If you go into china town you'll probably find the large cans of herring and mackeral. These are easily only $1.29 a can and have up to 4 large mackerels in them. There is so much fish in there, the can would make an entire meal for Myrka.

IGA had whole chickens for 89c/lb so I bought 10 of those. I had to go in and out of the store 3 times because there was a 3-chicken limit per customer.

Follow the specials in your area, you'll find some sweet deals on other meats.
I'm trying to attach a picture here, don't know if it will show up. If it doesn't you can see it at:
http://sharpeihealth.niceboards.net/raw-pei-f7/why-no-to-vegetables-t35.htm

Just so that you can see the proportional size of meat. It isn't broken or cut down into small cubes.
She has to work at eating it.
http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/11/97/71/93/wwwimg13.jpg

Best
Merlin

luckypenny
February 22nd, 2008, 07:13 AM
You're going to get a different opinion here. If Myka is not well and she's lost a considerable amount of weight in the past week or so because of her illness, I'd feed her whatever raw she will eat.

For example, a chunk of beef (if there's a little fat on it, that's fine), with a small amount of liver and/or kidney. If she likes to chew on bones, then you can offer her a long beef rib with the meat on.

Chicken, obviously boneless if she refuses to touch it with the bone. Add giblets, heart and liver in small amounts (not more than 10%).

A chunk of pork.

Don't forget to try frozen or semi-frozen fish again. Frozen sardines and mackerel are fairly inexpensive, especially if you can get to a Chinatown in your area.

Will she eat whole eggs with the shell? If not, once or twice a week, you can cut up into cubes whatever meat she likes best, blend on high speed 2-3 whole eggs until shell is a powdery texture and mix in well with her meal.

Don't worry about feeding her the same variety a few days in a row. Variety over a period of 1 to 2 weeks is what you'll want to aim for.

As for bones, does she like to gnaw on bones at all? You can offer her a beef rib, some chicken necks, or perhaps a chicken breast bone to start. Give her these separate from her meals and see if she'll get used to chewing on little bits at a time (just remember, usually not more than 10%).

I forgot if you've mentionned how much she weighs :o . Do you have an idea as to how much in terms of weight you're feeding her?

MerlinsHope
February 22nd, 2008, 03:01 PM
Lucky Penny, I agree with you whole heartedly.
I must have missed somewhere that Myrka is sick. Sorry I didn't realize that.

Yes, of course,..... she should abosolutely feed her anything at this time, and get the malady under control.

What is she sick with?? Sorry Myrka, I didn't realize that she was ill. This takes on a whole new meaning. If I were you I wouldn't switch anything until she is well. Feed her what you used to feed her. She may not be eating because of her illness and with this new diet you'd have no way of telling.

Thanks LP!!!!!

Merlin

Myka
February 22nd, 2008, 08:26 PM
Myrka, Raw feeding isn't about ground meat... you have to pull away from that concept. Try other meats instead. You have to serve a variety of meat and fish in order to offer valuable nutrition to your dog. there's pork, lamb, beef, plenty of other meats you can offer.

Yesterday at Metro/Provigo large pork roasts were on sale for 99c/lb.
I bought two dozen roasts that averaged 3.00 each. that's a lot of quality meat and bone.

If you go into china town you'll probably find the large cans of herring and mackeral. These are easily only $1.29 a can and have up to 4 large mackerels in them. There is so much fish in there, the can would make an entire meal for Myrka.

IGA had whole chickens for 89c/lb so I bought 10 of those. I had to go in and out of the store 3 times because there was a 3-chicken limit per customer.

Follow the specials in your area, you'll find some sweet deals on other meats.
I'm trying to attach a picture here, don't know if it will show up. If it doesn't you can see it at:
http://sharpeihealth.niceboards.net/raw-pei-f7/why-no-to-vegetables-t35.htm

Just so that you can see the proportional size of meat. It isn't broken or cut down into small cubes.
She has to work at eating it.

Best
Merlin


Hi Merlin, thanks for posting that photo! Myka's chunks are definately smaller than that, and she doesn't eat that much in a day...or is there a bone in there?

Myka will chew on a large weight bearing bone until there is no meat left, but she doesn't actually eat the bone. I am under the understanding that these large bones shouldn't be fed to dogs because dogs can chip their teeth on them...? Also, both of Myka's canine teeth are damaged and partially dead. So they aren't as strong as they would be if they were fully alive. They are the pinkish brown that a dead tooth goes, although the vet tells me that they are still a bit alive...? Either way they don't bother her, and I hope there is never a day when I have to get them root canalled $$$$$$$$.

Your market in Montreal is much better than the one here. I can't find lamb or veal for les than $6/lb period. So neither of those is an option. I have found the large whole "picnic" pork shoulders for 99 cents per pound, but I think that bone is too big for her to chew on, plus they have LOTS of fat and skin that I trim off, so in the end it is about 50% fat, skin, and bone. The boneless pork roasts that I just bought for $1.50/lb are a way better deal. I cut them into 3x3" chunks, but now I know I should cut them into bigger chunks. I bought the sirloin roasts for $3/lb, and cut them into 1" steaks. Next time I'll cut them into chunks, but I wanted steaks out of it as well!!! :laughing: Every time I go grocery shopping I check the meat section for specials.

We don't have a Chinatown here, but I went to the ONLY Asian market in town, and that's where I found the whole mackerel for $1/lb. But Myka will only eat the back half. Once she gets to the guts she stops eating. They didn't have any cans of fish that I found...I'll looks closer next time.

I don't think you understand that Myka WILL NOT eat bone-in chicken. Except she will eat bone-in chicken thighs...but I'm not paying the price of those!!!! This is why I figure that grinding the chicken may be the only way to get that full 10% bone into her. She will STILL be getting chunks of beef, pork, and Mackerel.

You're going to get a different opinion here. If Myka is not well and she's lost a considerable amount of weight in the past week or so because of her illness, I'd feed her whatever raw she will eat.

For example, a chunk of beef (if there's a little fat on it, that's fine), with a small amount of liver and/or kidney. If she likes to chew on bones, then you can offer her a long beef rib with the meat on.

Chicken, obviously boneless if she refuses to touch it with the bone. Add giblets, heart and liver in small amounts (not more than 10%).

A chunk of pork.

Don't forget to try frozen or semi-frozen fish again. Frozen sardines and mackerel are fairly inexpensive, especially if you can get to a Chinatown in your area.

Will she eat whole eggs with the shell? If not, once or twice a week, you can cut up into cubes whatever meat she likes best, blend on high speed 2-3 whole eggs until shell is a powdery texture and mix in well with her meal.

Don't worry about feeding her the same variety a few days in a row. Variety over a period of 1 to 2 weeks is what you'll want to aim for.

As for bones, does she like to gnaw on bones at all? You can offer her a beef rib, some chicken necks, or perhaps a chicken breast bone to start. Give her these separate from her meals and see if she'll get used to chewing on little bits at a time (just remember, usually not more than 10%).

I forgot if you've mentionned how much she weighs . Do you have an idea as to how much in terms of weight you're feeding her?

Yes, Myka is definately getting what she will eat so the weight can get back on. I think she's regained about 4-5 of the 6 pounds she lost. She's almost back to good weight now. :thumbs up

Long beef rib? GOOD IDEA!!!! I'll try to find some! Will she be able to actually eat and digest it?

I don't have a blender. That sounds REALLY gross! :yuck: LOL! She won't eat the eggshell. If I whip the egg up and pulverize the egg, then she won't eat the egg. :frustrated: Hmmm...maybe if I feed her eggs, and save the shells, then pulverize them and mix them in with her Tripett??? I bet she'd go for that! To give me an idea...how many eggshells should she eat in a week if it was her only source or calcium (just for arguments' sake)??

She won't eat chicken breast bones. She did eat chicken bone-on thighs in the first week of raw, but she's gotten a lot pickier since then. I'll try to feed her some thighs again.

I'm not sure how many lbs I am feeding her. I was trying to figure it out from the weight of the meat packages. I don't think I've been feeding her enough in the beginning...partly from not knowing, and partly from her being picky.

This morning I fed her a deboned chicken breast, a pork steak about 1" thick and about 3" round, and the tail half of a Mackerel. This evening I fed her a beef steak about 1" thick 3" wide and 5" long, a pork steak about 1" thick 3" round, and half a can of Tripett with a pulverised egg in it. Does that sound like enough?

Lucky Penny, I agree with you whole heartedly.
I must have missed somewhere that Myrka is sick. Sorry I didn't realize that.

Yes, of course,..... she should abosolutely feed her anything at this time, and get the malady under control.

What is she sick with?? Sorry Myrka, I didn't realize that she was ill. This takes on a whole new meaning. If I were you I wouldn't switch anything until she is well. Feed her what you used to feed her. She may not be eating because of her illness and with this new diet you'd have no way of telling.

Myka being sick was mentioned a couple times in this thread, but there wasn't a lot of emphasis put on it. There is a whole separate thread dedicated to that in the Health forum.

We're not totally sure what is wrong with her. Her lymph nodes on her neck swelled up. Here's a link: http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=49521

I don't want to go back to kibble at this point, since she hasn't had that kibble in 3 weeks now. I think that would cause upset for sure. She had some Ebo Innova yesterday. I'm up in the air whether I want to do 100% raw, or 50/50 raw/Ebo Innova, or 100% Ebo Innova. We'll see how this goes...it's really nice that Myka doesn't have stinky farts anymore!!! :laughing:

OxyMK
February 24th, 2008, 12:31 PM
Hi Everyone-

I've been following this thread for a few weeks have learned a lot. I've been feeding my two dogs raw since August of 2007. I decided to go raw after reading what actually went into dog food. Until I started reading this, I was giving them ground turkey, beef, chicken, etc... as well as a variety of vegetables, which I would take through the food processor. I fed them this based on research i did, but again, I didnt realize the information I was getting this from would be considered outdated (circa 2002 maybe?) until I read this thread.
Now, I have decided to cut out the vegetables and been giving them bone-in meat. Unfortunately, I have not been getting the best results, mainly from my younger dog. My older bulldog, Oxford, takes her time when she eats the bone-in chicken leg, thigh, beef ribs, etc... but my younger dog, Ten Bears, scarfs it all down. The other night, he scarfed down the beef rib and started to choke! :sad: My fiance and I were in total panic! We put Ten Bears on his side and stuck our finger down his throat. He was breathing, but still making gagging sounds. After what seemed like eternity, he must have swallowed the bone, but his tongue and mouth was blue for a little bit! He's fine now though
I decided to pound the bones next time I feed him. So this morning, I fed Oxford (the older one) with the bone in meat, since she eats them well. For Ten Bears, I pounded the bones and fed him. Ten Bears scarfed his food down (again!!) and must have eaten about 12 ozs of raw meat in 1 minute! Oxford on the other hand took about 7 minutes to eat all her food. After about 1 hour, I took them both for a long walk and when got home, I noticed Ten Bears was acting strange. He laid down to nap and a couple minutes later, he threw up all his food. It was all still intact and completely undigested.
So now my dilemma... I want to continue giving Ten Bears bone-in raw food, but how can I do this when he doesnt take the time to eat it. Should I give him larger types of meat such as turkey thighs? or should I just go back to giving him ground meat? Any advice would be great!

Myka
February 24th, 2008, 04:29 PM
I'm obviously no expert :laughing: but I was worried about this with Myka at first too. I only give her bones that are too small to choke on, or too big for her to swallow whole. I think the larger chunks of meat should slow him down too. Myka is quite a gobbler as well, but she can't gobble a 3/4 lb chunk of raw beef!! It takes some chewing to get it down!

MerlinsHope
February 25th, 2008, 05:59 AM
The other night, he scarfed down the beef rib and started to choke!

OxyMK... choking is a scary position and thank goodness you were there to save the day. Always go bigger... never smaller... bigger. Your dog will never choke on a side of beef.

You have to look to the wild. In the wild if your dog felled or came upon a wonderful carcass, your dog would know that he only has a few minutes to gorge before some competition might come along. He's pull off an much meat as possible, gulp it down, then take off when the larger pack of wolves show up.

That is why I'm always telling people to serve large pieces so that they have to pull off mouthfuls.

It doesn't matter if they swallow large pieces. Digestion for canines begins in the stomach and not in the mouth really. If one dog chokes on a quarter chicken, then give it a half chicken, (etc).

It is interesting that you mention the problem is only with the younger one. If you continue to feed large pieces ,in about 10-20 days or so, he'll re-learn how to eat, and chances are good that you will be able to go back down to smaller pieces once he learns to take his time.

he threw up all his food. It was all still intact and completely undigested.
As gross as this sounds, throwing up IS part of canine digestion. WHen they ingest something that requires further pre-digestion, they toss up their cookies, re-chew it, and try again. This is a very normal, common eating process for any dog.

Personally I feel bad for all these people who have developed this crazy concept of grinding meat with vegetables. I don't know where they are getting the information from, but I'll be glad when it's been pushed into the ground and replaced with pertinent information.

Best of luck
Merlin

MerlinsHope
February 25th, 2008, 08:19 AM
both of Myka's canine teeth are damaged and partially dead

Myrka... again, I'm sorry for notremembering the your dog was ill - and, yes, now I do remember the pus thing, but hat was some time ago. It should be healed no????. It's hard to keep up with everyone's issues all the time. Well it is for me anyways. So... sorry!!!! Hope it all heals really soon.

Listen, we have dogs here somtimes with only two teeth, sometimes 4 teeth. Naturally, it takes them longer to eat , but they very , very well managed to eat raw food. The only difference I've noticed is that the absence of fangs makes it difficult for them to puncture and grab prey, but we've also noticed if they have only 1 or 2 molars, they are quite capable of eating raw meat most sufficiently.

The only time we've fed ground food to our rescues is if they have missing jaw parts, damaged tracheas or throats from "polling", or no teeth, then, yes, of course we feed them ground food, we have no choice, and neither do they.

The piece of meat that Peanut has in her mouth does have a rib. It's from a pork rib roast that I found on sale for 99c/lb last week. That's all she got for her supper. In the moring she had one tiny sardine with a teaspoon of green tripe. SHe weights 28 lbs., so the food is more than appropriate for her size. (1/2 lb of food).

Merlin

OxyMK
February 25th, 2008, 08:49 AM
your dog would know that he only has a few minutes to gorge before some competition might come along. He's pull off an much meat as possible, gulp it down, then take off when the larger pack of wolves show up.

I think the reason he does eat so fast is becuase he's worried the older one will take it. I notice this when I give them recreational bones (the ones for stew) and he'll eat it and when he hears the older one coming he shoves it in his mouth and tries to go into an area that the older one can't. Its kind of funny, but at the same time, I see what it is doing to him. Oxford won't take Ten Bears's food if I tell her to back down, but if I start doing something and dont pay attention, Oxford will take his bone and run away. Poor Ten Bears! :headslap: So that probably explains why he eats so fast. Since I started feeding bone-in meat, Oxford runs upstairs and eats it in the hallway there, so they dont even eat together anymore, but that doesnt stop the younger one from munching away like its his last meal ever! Okay, so when I go to the store, I will look for larger pieces of meat for Ten Bears. Thanks Merlin!

OxyMK
February 25th, 2008, 09:06 AM
uh-oh! I just took the dogs for a walk and I noticed that Oxford had really really loose stool and there seemed to be a drop of blood in there too. Is this normal? Are the bones causing the little bit of blood? im a little worried here! plus, im about to leave for work so I wont be able to monitor her. YIKES!

MerlinsHope
February 25th, 2008, 12:10 PM
It's rather normal, especially if it's bright red.
It usually signifies an irritated bowel. Up the meat and reduce the bone.

Cheers
Merlin

MerlinsHope
February 25th, 2008, 12:12 PM
I think the reason he does eat so fast is becuase he's worried the older one will take it.

My point exactly... the larger wolf pack may turn up, and he's out of lunch.

You can control that though. If you assume a very alpha role that lets them both know there will be no stealing or giving up of food, then both will calm down and leave each other alone.

Merlin

OxyMK
February 25th, 2008, 01:23 PM
Whew! Okay, i'll make sure to give her more meat. Im sure she wont mind that! :D

Thanks, Merlin!

MerlinsHope
February 25th, 2008, 01:30 PM
Up the meat just a little.
Raw feeders have to become avid poop watchers.


If your dog gets too much meat, things could turn to, 'runny', and that's not good either. Sometimes the irritated bowel is just a short lived phase that occurs are the internal digestive systems gets used to this new food. Everything in small steps.

Conversely if the poop is too hard and dry, that's a good sign of too much bone. In either case, (too hard or runny) bloody stools can occur if the bowels are irritated.

Merlin

Myka
February 25th, 2008, 08:12 PM
Myrka... again, I'm sorry for notremembering the your dog was ill - and, yes, now I do remember the pus thing, but hat was some time ago. It should be healed no????. It's hard to keep up with everyone's issues all the time. Well it is for me anyways. So... sorry!!!! Hope it all heals really soon.

Listen, we have dogs here somtimes with only two teeth, sometimes 4 teeth. Naturally, it takes them longer to eat , but they very , very well managed to eat raw food. The only difference I've noticed is that the absence of fangs makes it difficult for them to puncture and grab prey, but we've also noticed if they have only 1 or 2 molars, they are quite capable of eating raw meat most sufficiently.

The only time we've fed ground food to our rescues is if they have missing jaw parts, damaged tracheas or throats from "polling", or no teeth, then, yes, of course we feed them ground food, we have no choice, and neither do they.

The piece of meat that Peanut has in her mouth does have a rib. It's from a pork rib roast that I found on sale for 99c/lb last week. That's all she got for her supper. In the moring she had one tiny sardine with a teaspoon of green tripe. SHe weights 28 lbs., so the food is more than appropriate for her size. (1/2 lb of food).

Merlin


As far as the tooth issue goes, I'm just worried that she may be more prone to breaking her canine teeth on large bones than a dog with good canines, which my vet suggested. It's not a reason to give her ground meat at all.

THEE reason I am feeding her the ground chicken is because she WILL NOT eat bone-in chicken. Not breast bone, not legs, not anything. She won't even chew the meat off. I can feed her nothing but the bone in chicken for FIVE DAYS straight and she will starve for FIVE DAYS instead of eating the bone in chicken. If it is ground she will eat it with no hesitation.

I got some more Mackerel yesterday, and I gave her a partially frozen one. She did the usual...ate the tail half of it, and stopped as soon as she got to the guts. So I deboned the fish, and gutted it. She still wouldn't eat it. So I put a squirt of Salmon oil on it and she ate it without hesitation. Put Salmon oil on fish and suddenly it's different...?? :rolleyes:

Honestly, I don't think I'm going to stick out this raw diet. It's costing me about $4-6 per day depending what she eats. :wall: I can't find any cheaper meat. That's an average of $150/month. That's too expensive for my budget! Unless I find some meat pricing breakthrough I'm going to put her on Ebo Innova.

want4rain
February 25th, 2008, 08:26 PM
our first few months were pretty rough on the pocket too but we were REALLY lucky to have a dog who will eat anything (including but not limited to paper, cardboard, sticks and other woody products!!! baby boogers on the pants :yuck:) we put in front of him AND that we were able to ferret out some hot deals on meat (to admit it wasnt that hard either for our area!) we have managed to keep the price down but i can totally understand, if we had to continue to feed at our initial price, we would have called it quits too.

there is NOTHING wrong with Innova, nor is there anythign wrong with supplementing (as your pocket allows you) with fresh meat (or tails as it may be in your case!!!) and perhaps while you arent stressing, she isnt stressing, you guys might find yourselves with some good inexpensive meat sources that she hasnt felt stressed into eating.

i wouldnt sweat it too much. dogs are dogs are dogs and frankly, im convinced they could live off of love and sunshine alone. they seem to be able to eat most anythign and still thrive. much like children... speaking of which... Jeffrey gets plenty of love, as much sunshine as we can find and lo!! he grew out of his 18mo old clothes right after eating a purple plastic bead. :rolleyes:

-ashley

MerlinsHope
February 25th, 2008, 09:20 PM
Honestly, I don't think I'm going to stick out this raw diet.

I have to say that Want4rain gave you very good advice.
:thumbs up

Myka
February 25th, 2008, 09:56 PM
our first few months were pretty rough on the pocket too but we were REALLY lucky to have a dog who will eat anything (including but not limited to paper, cardboard, sticks and other woody products!!! baby boogers on the pants :yuck:) we put in front of him AND that we were able to ferret out some hot deals on meat (to admit it wasnt that hard either for our area!) we have managed to keep the price down but i can totally understand, if we had to continue to feed at our initial price, we would have called it quits too.

there is NOTHING wrong with Innova, nor is there anythign wrong with supplementing (as your pocket allows you) with fresh meat (or tails as it may be in your case!!!) and perhaps while you arent stressing, she isnt stressing, you guys might find yourselves with some good inexpensive meat sources that she hasnt felt stressed into eating.

i wouldnt sweat it too much. dogs are dogs are dogs and frankly, im convinced they could live off of love and sunshine alone. they seem to be able to eat most anythign and still thrive. much like children... speaking of which... Jeffrey gets plenty of love, as much sunshine as we can find and lo!! he grew out of his 18mo old clothes right after eating a purple plastic bead. :rolleyes:

-ashley

:laughing: Ya, right now I'm thinking that I'll do Innova and supplement with Tripett and some raw. I have no idea what a bag of Innova costs though... :eek: It gives me some time to find some cheaper meat sources. I was even thinking of putting an ad up in the paper asking for someone to split a side of beef with me, and they can take the prime cuts, and I'll take the lesser cuts. Obviously they'd pay more, and I'd pay less. I'd assume there would be people out there who would like that deal. :shrug:

rainbow
February 25th, 2008, 10:20 PM
Innova EVO (http://www.naturapet.com/brands/evo.asp) costs about $59 for the large bag which should easily last you a month. I feed my dogs Orijen (http://championpetfoods.com/orijen/products/) which costs $56 for the large bag. I have a 92 lb. lab and a 58 lb. siberian husky and the bag lasts me almost 3 weeks. :pawprint:

Myka
February 25th, 2008, 10:26 PM
Innova EVO (http://www.naturapet.com/brands/evo.asp) costs about $59 for the large bag which should easily last you a month. I feed my dogs Orijen (http://championpetfoods.com/orijen/products/) which costs $56 for the large bag. I have a 92 lb. lab and a 58 lb. siberian husky and the bag lasts me almost 3 weeks. :pawprint:

That's it? Is the large bag 40lbs?

I was feeding Myka Nutro Natural Choice Large Breed Adult (for years n years). The bags were 40lbs or sometimes the BONUS bag of 44lbs :laughing: for $45. So if it's the same weight for $59, then I'm stoked!!! :thumbs up I thought it was gonna be like $80...

rainbow
February 25th, 2008, 10:46 PM
EVO's large bag is 28.6lb. and Orijen's is 29.7lb. I'm pretty sure you feed less with them though. Also, they are much better than Nutro imo. Nutro was bought out by the Mars Corp. awhile ago. That's the same company that makes Pedigree and Ol Roy and alot of other grocery store brands so I would be watching very carefully for ingredient cheapening in Nutro products.

OxyMK
February 26th, 2008, 11:38 AM
Myka-

Iím totally there with you with the cost of a raw diet and we have two mouths to feed! At first we were concerned about the price and still are, but we noticed such a huge difference, mainly in our older dog. Our younger dog started eating raw only after one week after we got him, but Oxford was eating Nutro, like Myka was, for about a year (Oxy will be 2 in May). Then we found out she had Hip Dysplasia and I was searching for anything that will make her healthy, not only in weight, but her overall well being. Thatís how I came across raw diet. It made total sense to me, so we tried it. I know a raw diet cant help cure something like HD, but after a little over a week of feeding her raw, she was no longer nipping at her hips. Before she would nip at them all day long, especially when we would walk her. Now, I donít know if it was the diet, the vitamins I started giving her, getting our other dog, Ten Bears, or a combination of all, but she is so much healthier. Her coat is shinier, she doesnít have as much of a hard time getting up from a seated position, her body is toned, she has great energy and so much more. To us, the extra money it costs is so worth it when we look at her and how much she has changed just from last August.

We've learned how to shop for them too. We always look in ads for sales on meat, when our friends are the store, we tell them to always check out the meat section for us to see if they have good deals and to tell us asap, we make sure to get those little store rewards cards. We've been able to handle it so far. But what the others are saying in this forum, there is nothing wrong with a high quality dog food either. I am certainly no expert, but could you mix some raw into the dog food as well so that they can get some of the benefits of a raw diet?

My experience with a raw diet has been great, but it is only my opinion. Good luck to you and whatever you chose will the right the choice for you and Myka.

luckypenny
February 26th, 2008, 12:24 PM
but could you mix some raw into the dog food as well so that they can get some of the benefits of a raw diet?

Mixing raw in the same meal as kibble is not recommended. Kibble can take somewhere around 12 hours to digest while raw only takes about 4 hours.
Feeding both at the same time can cause digestive upset. One can feed kibble at breakfast and raw at dinnertime (allow at least 12 hours I'd say between the two), or feed raw one day and kibble the next.

OxyMK
February 26th, 2008, 12:48 PM
Makes total sense. Thanks! How can you do this if the dog is used to raw though? Won't it mess up their system, similiar to changing from one kibble to another? I know when you do that, you have to do it gradually.

MerlinsHope
February 26th, 2008, 01:11 PM
yes, I also think it's not a good practice to mix foods this way, but then, there are those who believe that some raw is better than no raw.

The jury is still out on that one amongst many.

Mind you, there are some very high quality kibbles available (not that kibble will ever replace raw), now that are distinctly less harmful than the low end types.
:)

Myka
February 27th, 2008, 10:33 PM
I bought a bag of the Innova for Myka today. :o

She's had MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD diarrhea for 48 hours now. She's been waking me up twice a night to go out, and I have to walk her a block to go to the bathroom! :wall:

She just barfed an hour ago as well. It had some of her breakfast in there (chicken gizzards) that she ate about 12 1/2 hours before barfing. How could that happen?

I'm starting to wonder what the heck is going on with her...I know it's very likely coincidence, but she's been sick this whole time she's been on raw! :wall: :frustrated:

I'm gonna start her on the Innova tomorrow morning (she's not getting her PM feeding with this diarrhea), and I will supplement with Tripett, and feed at least 3-4 raw feedings per week. We'll try that out. :)

I'm thinking if I feed her a total of two large cans of Tripett per week that would be a good amount for her...?

OxyMK
February 28th, 2008, 01:07 PM
Sorry to hear about Myka. Throwing up never seems fun.

When I was first starting to research about raw diet, I remember coming across something that stated that when you first put your dog on raw, they will seem to get worse before they get better, simply becuase their bodies are trying to adjust to the new food, their stomach acids have to change, etc... I also remember reading that you will see them clean out their system by going through the weakest part of their body. I dont know how much of this is true for other people, but that is exactly what happened to Oxford which is why I wasnt so freaked out when it began to happen. She never had a problem eating the food, fortunately. In the beginning, she would have really bad bowel movements. Massive diarrhea the first few days and for like 2weeks, she was making snorting sounds, like she had a cold or reverse sneezing. In a bulldog, one of their weaker parts are their repiratory system. Everything that I read was happening. Then after a couple of weeks, she was back to normal. Regular poops, no more snorting and some other things.

Maybe Myka just has to go through a similiar process to clean her system out? Can anyone verify if what I read/experienced is even true?

want4rain
February 28th, 2008, 02:03 PM
have you had any blood work done on her??

-ash

Myka
February 28th, 2008, 08:02 PM
OxyMK: I have heard about that "cleansing" type thing as well. Although most people seem to think that it is not true and doesn't happen. I'm not sure what to believe, but it doesn't matter anyway since the raw diet is just too expensive for me. $150/month on dog food is just not in the budget. :o I thought it would be doable since most people told me to expect $1/lb for raw meats, and that my dog would eat 1.5 to 2 lbs per day. That is doable, but I'm averaging about $2.50-3 per lb. That is not doable.

I would find it odd if cleansing was the case as Myka didn't show any digestive upsets for the first 2 1/2 weeks. She seemed to take to it quite well, aside from becoming picky. Then getting ill. Now she's eating well again, but she's eating me out of house and home!!! :laughing:

have you had any blood work done on her??

-ash

Not yet. In order to get her teeth done she needs pre-anesthesia bloodwork. I plan to do the Geriatric blood planel for her which covers all the stuff needed for the pre-anesthetia bloodwork. So, I may as well get the Geriatric panel done just before she gets her teeth done so that I don't have to pay for bloodwork twice for no reason. My vet says not to do the Geriatric panel until she's been on a consistent diet for awhile so I can get some good "base" readings off the Geriatric panel to base annual Geriatric blood panels off of. The teeth cleaning is $450 ($100 for IV fluids during the anesthesia), plus $150 for the Geriatric panel, and that's a $600 bill provided there are no complications or extractions during the teeth cleaning.

SO...I'm saving up right now. These trips to the vet and the super expensive raw diet aren't helping out the teeth cleaning fund. :o

MerlinsHope
February 28th, 2008, 08:48 PM
have heard about that "cleansing"

I don't think there is any 'cleansing', or as some people put it 'detox', not in the sense of the word that we seem to understand it. With the switch from kibble to raw, there is only 'wellness'.

It's possible there could be sugar withdrawl in cases where dogs were fed with high sugar foods, but I doubt very much there is a detox period. "Detox", has never been substantiated at all. Personally I would not interpret the 'runs', as some sort of detox.

Yes, it's most likely food related, but it could as easily be from snurfing some some cheerio off the floor or munching on a piece of found wood somewhere. It could also be a reaction to any taken medication, or a symptom of illness.

You should not feel bad about not wanting to continue on a raw regime, you certainly don't have to justify yourself to anyone here. If it's not for you.. .it's not for you, that's all.

If teeth cleaning is part of your objective, you can still feed chew bones regularly to help the teeth and gums.

Best
Merlin

Myka
February 28th, 2008, 09:03 PM
You should not feel bad about not wanting to continue on a raw regime, you certainly don't have to justify yourself to anyone here. If it's not for you.. .it's not for you, that's all.

The only thing that keeps me away from raw is the cost. If I can find meat for much cheaper from a regular source, I'll hop back on the bandwagon.