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Natural Balance Organics

Noles1984
January 16th, 2008, 12:08 PM
I've researched hundreds and listed their ingredients at my site *********** and I cannot find anything better than.....
Natural Balance Organic
Free range Natural Chicken, Organic Brown Rice, Chicken Meal, Organic Oats, Organic Millet, Organic Barley, Organic Sorghum, Organic Potato, Organic Peas, Organic Canola Oil, Organic Flaxseed, Chicken Fat (Naturally stabilized with Mixed Tocopherols), Dicalcium Phosphate, Organic Carrots, Natural Flavor, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Phosphate, Sea Salt, Mixed Tocopherols, Organic Spinach, Organic Cranberry, Organic Tomato, Yucca Schidigera, , Dried Kelp, Organic Parsley, Organic Rosemary, Choline Chloride, Zinc Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Taurine, Manganese Sulfate, Niacin, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Copper Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Inositol, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Thiamin Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Vitamin D-2, Biotin, Potassium Iodate, Cobalt Sulfate, Vitamin K1 Supplement, Sodium Selenite. Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein (min) 22%, Crude Fat (min) 13%, Moisture (max) 10%, Crude Fiber (max) 4.5%

Purpledomino
January 17th, 2008, 05:54 PM
I've researched hundreds and listed their ingredients at my site ********** and I cannot find anything better than.....
Natural Balance Organic
Free range Natural Chicken, Organic Brown Rice, Chicken Meal, Organic Oats, Organic Millet, Organic Barley, Organic Sorghum, Organic Potato, Organic Peas, Organic Canola Oil, Organic Flaxseed, Chicken Fat (Naturally stabilized with Mixed Tocopherols), Dicalcium Phosphate, Organic Carrots, Natural Flavor, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Phosphate, Sea Salt, Mixed Tocopherols, Organic Spinach, Organic Cranberry, Organic Tomato, Yucca Schidigera, , Dried Kelp, Organic Parsley, Organic Rosemary, Choline Chloride, Zinc Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Taurine, Manganese Sulfate, Niacin, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Copper Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Inositol, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Thiamin Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Vitamin D-2, Biotin, Potassium Iodate, Cobalt Sulfate, Vitamin K1 Supplement, Sodium Selenite. Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein (min) 22%, Crude Fat (min) 13%, Moisture (max) 10%, Crude Fiber (max) 4.5%

Organic is all well and good, but in my opinion there are too many grain ingredients in this food, all being in the top six. What is millet anyway....I thought it was bird seed? :shrug: It's not a bad food, but I'll stick with my Orijen or Innova Evo, I think there is better stuff in there IMO. :o

Noles1984
January 18th, 2008, 01:35 PM
Let's try and help you out about grains. Forget about the too many grains thing. That's not even scientifically viable. OK, hang on, we're going on a science ride....
Brown Rice:: Brown rice has a high level of the Amino acid of Glutamic acid. Protein value is 2.3 grams and carbohydrate value is 23.5 grams per 100 grams.
Oats: Oats are rich in Magnesium, Manganese, Phosphorus, Iron, Pantothenic acid, and carbohydrates. Oats are rich in the Amino acids of Leucine, Arginine, Aspartic acid, and Glutamic acid. Oats have 17 grams of protein and 66 grams of carbohydrates per 100 grams.
Millet: Millet is a cereal crop used world-wide. Millet is rich in B vitamins, especially niacin, B6 and folacin, calcium, iron, potassium, magnesium, and zinc. It contains 11 grams of protein and and 73 grams of carbohydrates per 100 grams.
Barley: Barley is high in Vitamin B6, Iron, Magnesium, Phosphorus. It has 2.3 grams of protein and 28.3 grams of carbohydrates per 100 grams
Sorghum: Sorghum is a flowering grain/grass that is rich in dietary fiber, carbohydrates and protein. It's particulary rich in the amino acids of Leucine, Phenylalanine, Valine, Alanine, Aspartic, Glutamic, and Proline. Protein value is 11.3 grams and carbohydrates are 74.6 grams per 100.

All of the above grains are high in fiber needed for digestion.
Organic: = guaranteed to be free of pesticides, growth hormones, and genetically modified ingredients.

luckypenny
January 18th, 2008, 01:44 PM
Um, I'm thinking all of the above is available in just plain meat, bones, & organs :shrug:? Unless this is something new, I wasn't aware that dogs needed so much grain? Orijen, for example, provides all of the same nutrients if I'm not mistaken, without all the grains. Why feed all the extras when they're not necessary?

Noles1984
January 18th, 2008, 02:17 PM
Um, I'm thinking all of the above is available in just plain meat, bones, & organs :shrug:? Unless this is something new, I wasn't aware that dogs needed so much grain? Orijen, for example, provides all of the same nutrients if I'm not mistaken, without all the grains. Why feed all the extras when they're not necessary?
Not so fast. It's science! Meat does not provide any carbohydrates or dietary fiber. Vitamin A = 0, Vitamin C = 0, Vitamin D = 0, Manganese = 0

It's not that dogs need grains, it's that good grains provide the protein and carbohydrates. Protein is not just protein but a combination of amino acids of Tryptophan, Threonine, Isoleucine, Leucine, Lysine, Methionine, Cystine, Phenylalanine, Tyrosine, Valine, Arginine, Histidine, Alanine, Aspartic acid, Glutamic acid, Glycine, Proline, Serine, and Hydroxyproline.

Organs... I would not give my dog organs. Liver, for one, cleanses the blood of toxins. So when a dog gets a formula with liver he/she is receiving concentrated amounts of toxins from the cattle or whatever. Organs, in and of themselves, are cheap sources of protein. Protein in meat concentrates itself in muscle meat.
__________
CQ + PQ + IQ = CKB

rainbow
January 18th, 2008, 03:01 PM
It's not that dogs need grains, it's that good grains provide the protein and carbohydrates.

......Organs, in and of themselves, are cheap sources of protein.

And, proteins in carbohydrates are even cheaper sources of protein. All dog kibble should have high quality protein mainly from meat sources. And Natural Balance Organic has more grains than meat.

luckypenny
January 18th, 2008, 03:13 PM
I'd suspect the soluble and insoluble fiber found in vegetables to be of more nutritional value than just the insoluble fiber found in grains. I don't think dogs have evolved that much since the invention of commercially available dry foods to need such a high content of grains :shrug: .

Protein is derived from many other sources than grains, as are complex vitamins and minerals.

A healthy liver helps to detoxify the body. Toxins are then expelled from the body in a healthy animal, not stored in liver. There are a lot more nutritional benefits to liver than just protein. Vitamins A, B2-3-5-6, biotin, folacin, B12, choline, inositol, C, E, D, K and the minerals zinc, manganese, selenium, and iron. It's also a source of the essential fatty acids Omega 3 and 6.

You stated that Natural Balance is in your opinion, the better choice. Why, for example, as opposed to Orijen?

Noles1984
January 18th, 2008, 03:23 PM
Wait a minute. (1) There are no proteins in carbohydrates. I believe you are confused. There are ingredients within foods which have both carbohydrates and proteins. (2) You are comparing protein to protein via meat vs. grain. Right now I'm looking at 100 grams of roast beef which has 29 grams. Flaxseed has 17 grams. Not as vast a gap as you'd expect. How can you quantify that NB has more grain than meat? Are you using grams or by reading labels?

Noles1984
January 18th, 2008, 04:00 PM
You stated that Natural Balance is in your opinion, the better choice. Why, for example, as opposed to Orijen?
I have nothing against Orijen. I based my opinion on (1) the nutritional value of the food. Orijen has good ingredients. It is twice as high in protein than many other brands. I had correspondence with a sled dog breeder who was apprehensive of protein over 30%. (2) NB is the only manufacturer that will openly state what safety measures and analysis are done on their foods. (3) NB has a known track record with several zoos and animal parks with respect to specialized formulas that no other food manufacturer can match. (They know nutrition). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_R._Dinnes

I'd suspect the soluble and insoluble fiber found in vegetables to be of more nutritional value than just the insoluble fiber found in grains.
When fiber is shown on a label its insoluble fiber for intestinal movement, not soluble.

Protein is derived from many other sources than grains, as are complex vitamins and minerals..
I think most people are already aware of this.

Toxins are then expelled from the body in a healthy animal, not stored in liver.
Exactly how long before slaughter are cattle and other animals not eating as to detoxify?

Did I miss something?

Kinguni
January 18th, 2008, 06:04 PM
I've researched hundreds and listed their ingredients at my site ************* and I cannot find anything better than.....
Natural Balance Organic
Free range Natural Chicken, Organic Brown Rice, Chicken Meal, Organic Oats, Organic Millet, Organic Barley, Organic Sorghum, Organic Potato, Organic Peas, Organic Canola Oil, Organic Flaxseed, Chicken Fat (Naturally stabilized with Mixed Tocopherols), Dicalcium Phosphate, Organic Carrots, Natural Flavor, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Phosphate, Sea Salt, Mixed Tocopherols, Organic Spinach, Organic Cranberry, Organic Tomato, Yucca Schidigera, , Dried Kelp, Organic Parsley, Organic Rosemary, Choline Chloride, Zinc Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Taurine, Manganese Sulfate, Niacin, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Copper Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Inositol, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Thiamin Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Vitamin D-2, Biotin, Potassium Iodate, Cobalt Sulfate, Vitamin K1 Supplement, Sodium Selenite. Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein (min) 22%, Crude Fat (min) 13%, Moisture (max) 10%, Crude Fiber (max) 4.5%

I'm new here, but have done a lot of research and would not consider feeding that food to my dog. First listed ingredient is chicken, inclusive of water content (about 80%) and with water removed it would probably be farther down the list. There just isn't enough meat content in the food.

On topic, our dog (Shabba) was fed Nutro Large Breed Puppy (bought the largest bag from the shelter) when we brought her home, as she was at the Shelter. After a lot of research we switched to Orijen Large Breed Puppy, but found that she was very smelly (gas and poo) so we almost completely moved her to Go Natural! A little more research though and she's back on Orijen, and with some poor quality treats (PEDIGREE MARROBONE® Snacks) removed from her diet the nasty gas is pretty much gone.

Our obedience trainer, who feeds her dogs and recommends a raw diet, would only recommend Innova EVO, Go Natural! and Orijen as suitable kibble for dogs. We're actually going to give Orijen a try with our cats too.

Noles1984
January 18th, 2008, 06:51 PM
I'm new here, but have done a lot of research and would not consider feeding that food to my dog. First listed ingredient is chicken, inclusive of water content (about 80%) and with water removed it would probably be farther down the list. There just isn't enough meat content in the food.
Exactly how much meat is required in a formula? Do you have a percentage you'd like to share? I'm interested. However this is just your opinion on NB and you are entitled to it. While Orijen (http://www.championpetfoods.com/orijen/orijen/) does not present any accolades or accreditation. NB is a company that actually does scientific testing in-house and out (http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/NB_testing.html) and is involved in specilized diets (http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/zoological/home.html) in many professional areas. If the San Diego Zoo and Sea World animal nutritionists and vets trust them, I surely do.

On topic, our dog (Shabba) was fed Nutro Large Breed Puppy (bought the largest bag from the shelter) when we brought her home, as she was at the Shelter. After a lot of research we switched to Orijen Large Breed Puppy, but found that she was very smelly (gas and poo) so we almost completely moved her to Go Natural! A little more research though and she's back on Orijen, and with some poor quality treats (PEDIGREE MARROBONE® Snacks) removed from her diet the nasty gas is pretty much gone.
I'm glad you discovered the truth with Nutro and Pedigree.
Our obedience trainer, who feeds her dogs and recommends a raw diet, would only recommend Innova EVO, Go Natural! and Orijen as suitable kibble for dogs. We're actually going to give Orijen a try with our cats too.
Unfortunately obedience trainers are just that. Trainers. I've run into breeders that use Purina and Eukanuba. It takes an animal nutritionist to evaluate a food.

rainbow
January 18th, 2008, 07:13 PM
I have nothing against Orijen. I based my opinion on (1) the nutritional value of the food. Orijen has good ingredients. It is twice as high in protein than many other brands. I had correspondence with a sled dog breeder who was apprehensive of protein over 30%. (2) NB is the only manufacturer that will openly state what safety measures and analysis are done on their foods. (3) NB has a known track record with several zoos and animal parks with respect to specialized formulas that no other food manufacturer can match. (They know nutrition). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_R._Dinnes

1. You base your opinion on one dog sled breeder's apprehension? :rolleyes:
2. I haven't read Orijen's website completely for a long time but I would think they would have no problem doing the same. They have their OWN manufacturing plant which makes a big difference imo. Natural Balance has their food made at the Diamond plant in Sacramento, California where many other brands are made as well which could lead to cross contamination. :eek:
3. What does making formulas for lions and elephants got to do with dog and cat nutrition? :rolleyes:
4. WHY do you keep trying to promote YOUR website on this forum? :rolleyes:

rainbow
January 18th, 2008, 07:19 PM
I'm new here, but have done a lot of research and would not consider feeding that food to my dog. First listed ingredient is chicken, inclusive of water content (about 80%) and with water removed it would probably be farther down the list. There just isn't enough meat content in the food.


I agree with you 100% :thumbs up It's only the ingredients before the first fat content that make up most of the food. Natural Balance Organic has two meat sources and seven grain sources. That makes it pretty darn grainy in my books.

Kinguni
January 18th, 2008, 08:10 PM
4. WHY do you keep trying to promote YOUR website on this forum? :rolleyes:

Ad revenue no doubt. Here's a decent dog food review site - http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/

Purpledomino
January 18th, 2008, 08:40 PM
According to the www.dogfoodanalysis.com website, this food is ranked four out of six stars, mainly because it contains minimum meat content. Also the Sorghum is not a high quality grain, not easily digested like the other inclusive grains which are stated as good quality grains. I still think if I want to spend my money on good quality grains...I'll buy a bag of oats and feed it to my horses. :D

Tommysmom
January 18th, 2008, 09:17 PM
I don't have a lot of science backing up my opinion. I don't have a lot of testing. I don't have a website. What I DO have is a $350 vet bill from when the Natural Balance allergy formula I was feeding my dog got recalled, which Natural Balance repeatedly said they would cover and then wouldn't. I DO have a dog who was ill most of his life and is now healthy, bright eyed, shiny-coated and, for the first real time in his life, LOVES his food - Orijen. I don't care what zoos use to feed their animals, or who's done what kind of studies or received what kind of accolades - lots of places feed Pedigree because they sponsor stuff, that doesn't make Pedigree the greatest food on the planet either.

A good food is one that both you and your pet are happy with, that your pet eats and enjoys, and that keeps him/her healthy. Do the reading, investigate the ingredients AND how/where the food is made, what the company's track record is in terms of how honest they are about their ingredients and processing, then decide for yourself. Good food now often means lower vet bills later. Dogfoodanalysis.com is a fantastic place to start reading, as is the food forum here. Once you gain some knowledge, you can make your own informed decision about what is best for your pet.

Noles1984
January 19th, 2008, 11:01 AM
1. You base your opinion on one dog sled breeder's apprehension? :rolleyes:
2. I haven't read Orijen's website completely for a long time but [.....] 4. WHY do you keep trying to promote YOUR website on this forum? :rolleyes:
Disregard this post for the next. It somehow got sent before corrections were made.

Noles1984
January 19th, 2008, 11:51 AM
1. You base your opinion on one dog sled breeder's apprehension? :rolleyes:
2. I haven't read Orijen's website completely for a long time but I would think they would have no problem doing the same. They have their OWN manufacturing plant which makes a big difference imo. Natural Balance has their food made at the Diamond plant in Sacramento, California where many other brands are made as well which could lead to cross contamination. :eek:
3. What does making formulas for lions and elephants got to do with dog and cat nutrition? :rolleyes:
4. WHY do you keep trying to promote YOUR website on this forum? :rolleyes:
You are very much due an explanation of statements and I hope this exchanges are not in anger nor creating anger for any of you.
Answer to 1: It was not the major point to begin with. I'm not basing my opinion on the sled dog breeder at all. I just mentioned that as a point I once ran across. It's certainly debatable and we both had points we disagreed on.
Answer to 2: Fact: The formula was Natural Balance Venison and Brown Rice recalled on April 17, 2007. That particular dry formula was manufactured by Diamond for Natural Balance. Since, NB has ceased that formula. It was the only product outsourced to Diamond. Natural Balance does not obtain their foods from Diamond. That's something you pieced together from news bits. At least tell the truth. [1] (http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/press_release.html)
Answer to 3: Do not roll your eyes, Rainbow. That's condescending. Attempt to understand and learn. In Natural Balance's case, they created dog and cat formulas to a standard that zoo/animal park vets and animal nutritionists felt comfortable in choosing NB to create formulas for other animals. I realize it's confusing for you that expertise in nutrition leads to creating other formulas for exotic and endangered animals. (Unlike certain foods created for animals destined for slaughter).
Answer to 4: I'm not promoting. It just gives quick access to hundreds of formulas in one place. I cannot find another site that does so. You'll notice that Orijen is listed there as a great food with no bias against it. That's all. That's it. No hidden agenda.

Noles1984
January 19th, 2008, 11:59 AM
Ad revenue no doubt. Here's a decent dog food review site - http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/
Yet another degrading remark based on no information and ignorance. You'll notice that the site is hosted by Bravehost - ads that appear are of Bravehost's choosing, not mine. I derive no monies from that site what-so-ever. Oh, I might add that the above site is a sponsored website and leads to Nutro Ultra (http://www.ultraholistic.com/?gclid=COy4q5rmgpECFR8Ulgodn1D_GQ).

Tommysmom
January 19th, 2008, 12:11 PM
[/B]Do not roll your eyes, Rainbow. That's condescending. Attempt to understand and learn.

I realize it's confusing for you that expertise in nutrition leads to creating other formulas for exotic and endangered animals. (Unlike certain foods created for animals destined for slaughter).

Answer to 4: I'm not promoting. It just gives quick access to hundreds of formulas in one place. I cannot find another site that does so.

What you said here is much more condescending than Rainbow was. We are all here in an 'attempt to understand and learn' from each other. You are not any more of an authority than other members that are here. Everybody here is trying to provide information so that the OP can make an informed choice for his/her pet. There is no one right or wrong answer. That's why everybody has made recommendations and advised the OP to read, research, and then decide.

A very good site that 'provides quick access to hundreds of formulas in one place' has also been mentioned several times here - www.dogfoodanalysis.com. It's been a fantastic resource to me when researching foods, ingredients, etc. Given time, if your site proves to be reliable, trustworthy and unbiased, it will probably be mentioned here a lot too, as we're fairly passionate about good nutrition for our pets. But credibility takes time, and a good site like that really does need to be and appear to be unbiased... if people think that you are supporting or being supported by one brand over others, it really does undermine any credibility you are trying to build.

I hope we haven't lost Amatazes in all of this? Have you found a food to try? And can we have more pictures of the little guy?:D

Noles1984
January 19th, 2008, 12:43 PM
What you said here is much more condescending than Rainbow was. We are all here in an 'attempt to understand and learn' from each other. [...] I disagree with the assessment on condescending. Agreed on understanding and learning.

Given time, if your site proves to be reliable, trustworthy and unbiased, it will probably be mentioned here a lot too, as we're fairly passionate about good nutrition for our pets. But credibility takes time, and a good site like that really does need to be and appear to be unbiased... if people think that you are supporting or being supported by one brand over others, it really does undermine any credibility you are trying to build.
Thanks. It may be construed that I support "various" brands over The GoodLife, Purina, Kibbles 'n Bits, Pedigree, etc. True. I just place the formulas there with ingredients and indicators to less than great ingredients.

What gets me is the ganging up on me of Orijen people when I never said that Orijen was bad or questionable. However out comes a lot of misinformation on Natural Balance when I just said I thought it to be the best I've found. - Chuck Taylor

Kinguni
January 19th, 2008, 01:29 PM
I disagree with the assessment on condescending.
What gets me is the ganging up on me of Orijen people when I never said that Orijen was bad or questionable. However out comes a lot of misinformation on Natural Balance when I just said I thought it to be the best I've found. - Chuck Taylor

I don't consider myself an "Orijen people", and do apologize for the "ad revenue" suggestion (forgot you were on a free web host there - bad me since all the ads were blocked), but I didn't see any "misinformation on Natural Balance", only opinion. While I appreciate that you feel strongly about this particular food, you must appreciate that others will not share your opinion, and that by pushing it so hard you only decrease the value of your opinion in the eyes of other.

I and others believe in using a holistic and grain-free approach to feeding our digs and cats and simply stated Natural Balance does not fit either description. Period. If one believes that grains are an ideal source of proteins for their digs, then Natural Balance is likely to be a good choice of dog food, and I respect your opinion that it is the best.

Ron

Noles1984
January 19th, 2008, 01:37 PM
I don't consider myself an "Orijen people", [...] but I didn't see any "misinformation on Natural Balance" [....] Ron
I'll send you the quote as a private message. This back and forth back biting is too inflaming.

Noles1984
January 19th, 2008, 02:48 PM
I like viewing as many dry food brands as possible - obscure to well-known. Just found Wenaewe (http://www.wenaewe.com.uy/en_vegetarian.html). It's ingredients are unimportant since I'm on a quest to get as many brands as possible. If you know of a brand, just say so. I'd be interested. Thanks.

mika140
January 19th, 2008, 09:11 PM
So if the use of NB by zoo staff makes it of higher quality, what do you make of Science Diet? It's very well promoted by most veterinary offices and the manufacturer can support their product with testing and lots of paperwork. The vets also get special deals and SD makes the food affordable for them. Would you think SD is also high quality? I'm guessing you'll address the ingredients as the reason why it is lower....but the point I'm obviously trying to make is that there are many reasons why different groups use certain products. Cost is a major one; money into research, etc. is another. But the use of it by them (in and of itself) doesn't seem to be a reliable support for the food.

Don't know if you've checked out this site either. The site operator has had some bad experiences with NB. You'd have to check with them on specifics, but it's there for the looking if you're interested:

http://www.ourdogsonline.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/cfrm

Noles1984
January 20th, 2008, 10:44 AM
Mika140 wrote: "Would you think SD is also high quality?"
All I can say about Hill's is that they have ingredients most people in this forum and other forums disagree with in their dog's nutrition (brewers rice, corn meal, chicken by-product meal, soybean meal, animal fat, BHA, BHT, propyl gallate, etc.) It's just my personal preference not to give my dog brewers rice for instance when brown rice is available. I feel like I'm getting ripped off and my dog is getting an inferior ingredient.

Mika140 wrote: "But the use of it by them (in and of itself) doesn't seem to be a reliable support for the food."
I guess you mean my reasoning in liking NB because of the scientific testing and that they're able to create zoological formulas doesn't seem to be reliable for food. Am I understanding you correctly? If so, please reply and I'll be happy to address that.

Mika140 wrote: "The site operator has had some bad experiences with NB."
With so many brands out there, I'm sure there's an abundance of people who have had problems with every manufacturer. That's bound to happen. You'll also find testimonial pages on dog food sites which praise foods. So it comes down to what works for you.

Thanks Mika140....
--Chuck Taylor

mika140
January 20th, 2008, 08:49 PM
I guess you mean my reasoning in liking NB because of the scientific testing and that they're able to create zoological formulas doesn't seem to be reliable for food. Am I understanding you correctly? If so, please reply and I'll be happy to address that.


That's pretty much what I was thinking. I guess I'd just stick to the ingredients or your personal experience with the product. I just don't see much difference b/w NB and SD when it comes to promoting their product. SD has specific veterinary formulas that veterinarians (some of them very popular) will tell you work wonders for pets. And there's lots of research behind their products. Personally I don't have any issues with NB. I don't think it is the best product out there, but if it works for someone, then that's what really counts.

rainbow
January 23rd, 2008, 04:20 AM
Answer to 2: Fact: The formula was Natural Balance Venison and Brown Rice recalled on April 17, 2007. That particular dry formula was manufactured by Diamond for Natural Balance. Since, NB has ceased that formula. It was the only product outsourced to Diamond. Natural Balance does not obtain their foods from Diamond. That's something you pieced together from news bits. At least tell the truth.

It took awhile for me to reply because I was waiting for an answer from Natural Balance. I know NB supplies the ingredients but all of the Natural Balance dry formulas are manufactured by Diamond....

Hello ****,

Please know that all our Dry Formulas are co-packed at Diamond in California, and our Canned Formulas are co-packed at American Nutrition in Utah. All of our Dog Rolls, Roll-a-Rounds, and frozen products are manufactured here at Natural Balance in California. Have a good day.



Sincerely,

Jennifer Freeman, B.S., R.V.T.

Animal Nutrition

Natural Balance Pet Foods, Inc

800-829-4493 x106

Love4himies
January 23rd, 2008, 08:17 AM
Our obedience trainer, who feeds her dogs and recommends a raw diet, would only recommend Innova EVO, Go Natural! and Orijen as suitable kibble for dogs. We're actually going to give Orijen a try with our cats too.

My cats eat Orijen (along with Wellness and Go Natural) and they love it. My daughter's very overweight cats changed from Iams weight control to Orijen (and Wellness) and they are now within normal weights.

Kinguni
January 24th, 2008, 01:59 AM
My cats eat Orijen (along with Wellness and Go Natural) and they love it. My daughter's very overweight cats changed from Iams weight control to Orijen (and Wellness) and they are now within normal weights.

Laurie had recently switched the cats from Purina ONE to ACANA ADULT LIGHT, with a dramatic difference in our older male's coat (less flakes) and much less smelly poop. They've been on Orijen since last weekend now so we'll see how it goes. No negatives yet (except for Meeko dragging his butt on the downstairs carpet once and then Shabba licking it up :eeew:). We'll have to see how the weights of our fatties goes now. They had been loosing weight after a couple of bags of ACANA.

Noles1984
January 24th, 2008, 11:28 AM
No negatives yet (except for Meeko dragging his butt on the downstairs carpet once and then Shabba licking it up :eeew:). Oh!...man that's gross but written with a twist of humor... I think. Man, I hope I can think pleasant thoughts as I head to lunch.

Noles1984
January 24th, 2008, 03:42 PM
It took awhile for me to reply because I was waiting for an answer from Natural Balance. I know NB supplies the ingredients but all of the Natural Balance dry formulas are manufactured by Diamond....
This is true. It turns out that many brands are "put together" at their plants... NB uses the Lathrop, California plant. Another obscure but good food, King __ something has a very good formula. It still pleases me that the ingredients are NB's and under quality control of NB labs and Midwest Labs.

As for your mention of cross contamination. The original problem with Diamond way back was Aflatoxin poisoning. Aflatoxin is a fungus that most commonly affects cereal grains prior to harvest. Apparently their Gaston, S.C. plant got some bad product. Aflatoxin never affected any other brands.

As said before, NB Venison & Brown Rice was contracted out for actual manufacture by Diamond. Diamond decided to get rice proteinate from Wilbur-Ellis which contained melamine.

I'm somewhat concerned that Timberwolf Organics doesn't make their own food. They used to have Diamond do it all. Now they state that the supplier is "proprietary" -- a catch word for "we won't tell"... that just bothers me.

rainbow
January 24th, 2008, 08:08 PM
Chenango Valley Pet Foods manufactures the Timberwolf Organics products. Timberwolf Organics supplies them with the ingredients just like Natural Balance supplies the ingredients to Diamond.

I thought that aflatoxin poisoning can happen anywhere grains are being used and not stored properly.

Natural Balance should have known where all their ingredients were sourced from imo. I hope they have learned their lesson. It would be nice if they would build their own manufacturing plant. It's a definite bonus the way I look at it.

rainbow
January 24th, 2008, 08:13 PM
This is true. It turns out that many brands are "put together" at their plants... NB uses the Lathrop, California plant. Another obscure but good food, King __ something has a very good formula. It still pleases me that the ingredients are NB's and under quality control of NB labs and Midwest Labs.


Do you mean that Natural Balance has a new formula that starts with "King____" or that there's another brand called "King___" that is made by Diamond at the same plant as Natural Balance?

Noles1984
January 25th, 2008, 09:21 AM
Natural Balance should have known where all their ingredients were sourced from imo.
In NB's case they did except for one formula. That's documented in previous posts.
It would be nice if they would build their own manufacturing plant. It's a definite bonus the way I look at it.
Since NB isn't owned by a huge concern like Proctor & Gamble and is relatively new (1989) so construction of a plant takes up a lot of capital.
Do you mean that Natural Balance has a new formula that starts with "King____" or that there's another brand called "King___" that is made by Diamond at the same plant as Natural Balance?
Ah ha! It's called Kirkland. I found it through my browser history rather than killing myself trying to find it in a prev. post.

rainbow
January 26th, 2008, 03:42 AM
Since NB isn't owned by a huge concern like Proctor & Gamble and is relatively new (1989) so construction of a plant takes up a lot of capital.


Naturapet and Champion Pet Foods aren't owned by a big corporation either and they have their own manufacturing plants.

And, I would think that Dick Van Patten would be able to afford to build his own plant too.

Noles1984
January 27th, 2008, 10:03 AM
Naturapet and Champion Pet Foods aren't owned by a big corporation either and they have their own manufacturing plants.
And this has to do with what?
And, I would think that Dick Van Patten would be able to afford to build his own plant too.
I didn't realize you had a degree in economics. I don't know how much money Dick Van Patten has nor do I know that capital outlay required to build a plant. Since you have a degree in economics, maybe you can enlighten me and others.

Lukka'sma
January 27th, 2008, 11:21 AM
If you have researched hundreds and cannot find anything better, what exactly is it you want from the members of this forum? It doesn't seem to be their opinions because you shoot down everyone who doesn't see things the way you do. If you are happy with your choice of pet food and feel you are making an informed decision then by all means use your preferred brand.
I didn't see anyone state here that they have a degree in economics, however you do seem to think you have (self proclaimed) superior knowledge when it comes to rating each and every ingredient found in pet foods.
I'm am at a loss as to figure out what you are looking for from the members of this forum if not their input

rainbow
January 27th, 2008, 07:26 PM
And this has to do with what?

I thought it was pretty obvious since you posted this:
"Originally Posted by Noles1984
Since NB isn't owned by a huge concern like Proctor & Gamble and is relatively new (1989) so construction of a plant takes up a lot of capital."


So I was just pointing out the fact that there are other pet food companies that are not owned by corporations that prefer to have their own facilities.


I didn't realize you had a degree in economics. I don't know how much money Dick Van Patten has nor do I know that capital outlay required to build a plant. Since you have a degree in economics, maybe you can enlighten me and others.

Tad bit sarcastic aren't we? :rolleyes:

Geeze, I don't know how much money DVP has either but since he's a well known celebrity he shouldn't have many problems finding it. Nor do I know the capital outlay required to build a plant but you did say in your previous remark that it would take alot so I don't know why you bothered to asked me. :shrug:

rainbow
January 29th, 2008, 05:19 PM
If you have researched hundreds and cannot find anything better, what exactly is it you want from the members of this forum? It doesn't seem to be their opinions because you shoot down everyone who doesn't see things the way you do. If you are happy with your choice of pet food and feel you are making an informed decision then by all means use your preferred brand.
I didn't see anyone state here that they have a degree in economics, however you do seem to think you have (self proclaimed) superior knowledge when it comes to rating each and every ingredient found in pet foods.
I'm am at a loss as to figure out what you are looking for from the members of this forum if not their input


Lukka'sma, I forgot to say that I agree with you 100%. :thumbs up

rainbow
January 29th, 2008, 07:38 PM
Noles1984, instead of rudely replying to my posts via personal messages please post them here for everyone to see. Thank you.

coppperbelle
January 29th, 2008, 08:48 PM
If you have researched hundreds and cannot find anything better, what exactly is it you want from the members of this forum? It doesn't seem to be their opinions because you shoot down everyone who doesn't see things the way you do. If you are happy with your choice of pet food and feel you are making an informed decision then by all means use your preferred brand.
I didn't see anyone state here that they have a degree in economics, however you do seem to think you have (self proclaimed) superior knowledge when it comes to rating each and every ingredient found in pet foods.
I'm am at a loss as to figure out what you are looking for from the members of this forum if not their input


I was thinking the same thing.

I'm not going to go into all the scientifics of the food. The fact is I fed NB for a while to my dogs. It was in between the time I fed Solid Gold and they did the ingredient change and the food I am presently feeding which is Canidae. NB wasn't a bad food but it certainly wasn't the best on the market which I think you are trying to convince us that it is. I didn't like how my dogs were doing on NB. I switched them to Canidae and the changes were noticeable within a month. If your dog is doing well on it then I am happy for you but why you are trying to convince people that they are wrong is beyond me.

Frenchy
January 29th, 2008, 09:00 PM
Noles1984, instead of rudely replying to my posts via personal messages

No way !

Lighten up Noles1984 , this is only a food forum on the internet. No need to pm members here this way ! :mad:

luckypenny
January 29th, 2008, 09:06 PM
If you have researched hundreds and cannot find anything better, what exactly is it you want from the members of this forum? It doesn't seem to be their opinions because you shoot down everyone who doesn't see things the way you do. If you are happy with your choice of pet food and feel you are making an informed decision then by all means use your preferred brand.
I didn't see anyone state here that they have a degree in economics, however you do seem to think you have (self proclaimed) superior knowledge when it comes to rating each and every ingredient found in pet foods.
I'm am at a loss as to figure out what you are looking for from the members of this forum if not their input

Well stated, Lukka'sma.

Noles1984, instead of rudely replying to my posts via personal messages please post them here for everyone to see. Thank you.

Never mind your equation, you ought to be working on your Respect Quotient :frustrated:!

Mamakicia
January 30th, 2008, 09:48 PM
... It's not that dogs need grains...

You've hit the nail on the head :wall:

... it's that good grains provide the protein and carbohydrates...

IMO, Noles has not really made a case for why dogs need so many carbohydrates. Looking at the analysis for the NB Organic dog food, it would seem that carbohydrates make up about 50% of the food, which is way too much. So, regardless of whether this is organic, or where the proteins are from, there are still too many carbs in this food.

Crude Protein 22.0% minimum
Crude Fat 13.0% minimum
Crude Fiber 4.5% maximum
Moisture 10.0% maximum
Omega 3 Fatty Acids* 0.4% minimum
Omega 6 Fatty Acids* 2.6% minimum

Noles1984
January 31st, 2008, 12:18 PM
Hi Mamakicia... Academically, are you pointing to, for instance, grains as carbs? If so, each of these contain proteins plus other essential nutrients and are not exclusively carbohydrates. Unfortunately the term carbohydrate gets used to describe grains, potatoes, rice, beans, etc. Carbohydrates are just simple organic compounds and are the largest group of biomolecules which also include proteins, lipids and nucleic acids.

The below are facts, not my opinion.

Flaxseed: 16.9 g protein per 100 g. also has Magnesium, Phosphorus, Vitamin B1, Pantothenic acid, extremely high in Vitamin B3. It's high in the amino acids of Leucine, Arginine, Valine, Aspartic, Lysine, and Glutamic acid and dietary fiber.

Barley: 2.3 grams protein per 100 g. also has Vitamin B6, Iron, Magnesium, Phosphorus, and dietary fiber.

Oats: 16.9 grams protein per 100 g. also contains high amounts of Magnesium, Manganese, Phosphorus, Iron, Pantothenic acid. Oats are rich in the Amino acids of Leucine, Arginine, Aspartic acid, and Glutamic acid.

Millet: 11 g of protein per 100 g. also high in B vitamins, especially Niacin, B6 and Folacin, Calcium, Iron, Potassium, Magnesium, and Zinc.

Brown Rice: 2.3 grams protein per 100 g. High in the amino acid of Glutamic acid.

Carbohydrates require less water to digest than proteins or fats and are the most common source of energy.

Canines have the ability to consume large quantities of protein and then convert that protein into energy in addition to muscle. They also have the ability to convert many carbohydrate sources into the same kind of energy. This ability to utilize both carbohydrates and proteins as an energy source explains how we are able to feed our pets a high carbohydrate diet, particularly when we feed processed carbohydrates that are easily digested by canines.

However, while carbohydrates are an important part of dry commercial pet foods, they can occasionally cause medical problems in dogs including obesity and maldigestion. Obesity occurs when an animal's energy needs are exceeded and the extra glucose created by the digestion of the carbohydrates is stored as fat. An excess of carbohydrates, fats, or proteins can all lead to obesity, but carbohydrates are often the most common energy source and are easily converted to glucose. (Hand; Thatcher; Remillard; Roudebush; Small Animal Clinical Nutrition, Walsworth Publishing, 2000)

I just strive for a good balanced diet for my dog. I'm not out to fight with anyone. I'm particularly interested in the nutrients within ingredients. I'm not saying you're feeding your dog incorrectly and I'm not saying feed your dog what I feed mine. Do the best you can do.