Pets.ca - Pet forum for dogs cats and humans 

-->

Shock Collars

TinaMcq
January 13th, 2008, 11:35 AM
I don't know what to do skipper is scaring alot of people with his barking he looks like he is going to attack but I have his leash very tight yet they still get scared make a reaction which makes skipper go even worse. I have a muzzle for him right now but he still does the barking and attacking. I am wondering if the shock collar will help and if they hurt the dog alot. I don't know much about the product yet hearing good and bad about it. I don't know what to do.

Lukka'sma
January 13th, 2008, 11:39 AM
Oh-oh........covers head with hands in preparation for the bombardment and quickly tip-toes back out of this thread.......closes door gently as to not rock the boat

TinaMcq
January 13th, 2008, 12:00 PM
It's not that I want to use one of those. I wanted to know if they are effective to stop the jumping and looking like I am going to attack you look. I would probably break down and use that as my very very last resort. We live in an apartment I want to be able to bring him out without people going omg is he going to bite me. He is a big baby is what I tell them yet I have him in my arms in the elevator and that is where he is scaring them. I don't want to put him down in case another dog comes in cause people are stupid here my dog is going nuts growling barking and they still get in the elevator there dog and they look at me like I am crazy, but what can you do they live there to.

Winston
January 13th, 2008, 12:05 PM
I cant back out of this one! I dont think anyone shold use a shock collar!! Just my opinion!

Have you thought aboout spending the money on Obediance Training or a dog behaviourist!

Cindy

TinaMcq
January 13th, 2008, 12:36 PM
Yes signing him up soon. The shock collar is something I don't want to use, just wondering about it cause somebody uses it for there dog and they said it worked, so I don't know if I had to use it for a last resort.

CyberKitten
January 13th, 2008, 01:04 PM
No, no and no. A shock collar is the worst form of negative reinforcement and might teach the dog not to engage in the behaviors but may have lasting ill effects as well. For a pet, it is not unlike being tasered (sp?) and do you really want to do that to your dog? is his behaviour THAT bad? Surely to God there are better ways.

Good luck

otter
January 13th, 2008, 01:13 PM
Be sure to explain to people you meet that you are working on his behavior, sometimes it makes people more understanding. I think training and socialization will get this behavior changed, be patient, it will probably take a bit of time and work but be well worth it.

In the mean time, read what you can about not reinforcing the behavior (you'll find some good training links on this site) and maybe try taking the stairs :D

:goodvibes::goodvibes: for you for looking for solutions without just jumping into such drastic measures as a shock collar.

CearaQC
January 13th, 2008, 01:27 PM
Test drive a shock collar on yourself first.

Here's a demonstration

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Sq996M-zgvU

And another

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Lk3YcuzUVqc

aslan
January 13th, 2008, 01:45 PM
Quick and easy way of explaining this. Would you electrocute your child everytime they did something innappropriate or would you teach them how to behave. The name of the collar is self explanatory (shock collar) everytime your animal makes a noise (a noise not neccessarily a bark) he is electrocuted. Explain to me what pro's you have heard about them.

want4rain
January 13th, 2008, 02:12 PM
Test drive a shock collar on yourself first.

Here's a demonstration

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Sq996M-zgvU

And another

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Lk3YcuzUVqc

ROFLMAO!!!


thank you so much for such a good laugh!!! no please, dont use a shock collar. get into training and also really look into a behaviorist who can explain WHY your dog is doing what he is doing and what you can do to teach him other ways of being. the kind of relationship you can develop with your dog with some patience and understanding of how dogs brains work is quite rewarding. :) a good behaviorist is usually worth their weight in chocolate.

also look into Lissa's (i think thats her name!!) posts in relation to just about ANY subject. her along with Tenderfoot, have very 'doggy brained' explanations as to how dogs think, react and learn. what you learn from their posts can be applied to your situation.

-ash

-ashley

CyberKitten
January 13th, 2008, 02:34 PM
Wow- that's a better explanation than any of us could explain!! Thx for that! I am against shock collars bec I have seen a little dog shocked with one and the poor puppy was in pain and I felt like strangling the woman who did it but this woman - a teenager and sometimes they don't think, sigh - shows us in a much better way because she can explain how it feels. Awful and painful!

hazelrunpack
January 13th, 2008, 03:09 PM
Tina, your situation is definitely not one that a shock collar would be useful for. Likely, it would intensify the situation, not remedy it. (And we do have them, to insure recall in dangerous situations--like wolf encounters--so I have some experience with them.)

Skipper needs to discover that strangers are not a threat--throwing a shock into the mix would only convince him that strangers hurt him. So please abandon the shock collar idea. You need to work on getting him socialized. You'll likely need a good behaviorist's help--if you tense up when someone approaches, Skipper will pick up on that and react as if there is a threat. And if the person approaching sees the muzzle and picks up on your tension, and gets nervous, Skipper will pick up on that, too. A good behaviorist can help you defuse both your and Skipper's reactions.

TinaMcq
January 13th, 2008, 03:50 PM
Thank you to everyone for there opinion I didn't realize that shock collars were really that bad I will never put one on skipper!!!!!! I do want to take him to doggie parks to help him with his socializing, and I am putting him into training classes. Please don't get me wrong skipper is a big baby he tries to protect me when we go out and his bark is very scary now he is starting to lunge at people which makes it worse since we live in an apartment. I am trying my best to work with him. He wears a muzzle (not to happy with that) he can bark alittle not as much as before maybe that is why he is jumping towards people hummmm...... Anyways as I said before I will never put the shock collar on him!!!!!!!!!!

TinaMcq
January 13th, 2008, 03:56 PM
Hazelrunpack you are so right. I have seen his reaction and now I am nervouse and I never thought that I could be the start of it. Thank you so much for opening my eyes!!!!!!!!!

Luba
January 13th, 2008, 05:51 PM
Positive reinforcement is what you want to encourage not negative. :thumbs up


Some dogs well they just will never be good with other dogs. I'm not sure of your dog age or history but obedience is the way to go. Some dogs like people are socially lacking, not usually of their own fault but 'everything' is a learned behaviour.:thumbs up Good luck and no way to shock collars for sure they're cruel and can be quite dangerous.

Lukka'sma
January 13th, 2008, 05:58 PM
You're a quick learner TinaMcq, and you can take constructive criticism and know it's not a personal attack on you:thumbs up
You're gonna do fine with this obedience stuff
Good luck to you and let us know how it goes

TinaMcq
January 13th, 2008, 06:06 PM
his attacks are not on other dogs its on people he choose to do it to not everyone it could be fine with one person one day and the next day he will go nuts on that same person. Any ideas?

Lukka'sma
January 13th, 2008, 06:09 PM
Where are you in relation to the dog during the troublesome times. Are you holding him, (don't take this wrong) making him think he is the king of the castle.

TinaMcq
January 13th, 2008, 07:03 PM
At first I was just walking into the elevator after having a few problems a lady at work said try to carry him out if its okay put him down to walk out so that is what I do so now its either when he's walking or in my arms that he goes after people but remember he has a muzzle on but people still get scared and jump back which is already set off on our way down from someone else. I see when I am walking him all he wants to do is go and see the other dogs but people probably won't let him near there dog in fear that he will do something even though he has a muzzle on. I will give you an example skipper is 16lbs a small dog we were in the elevator this big man came in must have been 300 lbs or more over 6 feet skipper went nuts when he saw him and the man flew up against the wall saying omg he is scaring me? skipper didn't have the muzzle then I got it the next day but he was in my arms no way for him to get out.

Lukka'sma
January 13th, 2008, 07:26 PM
TinaMcq read this and see if it applies to your situation


Some families encourage their dogs to take over the "pack" without realizing it. They treat their dogs as equals, not as subordinates. They give them special privileges like being allowed to sleep on the bed or couch. They don't train their dogs and let them get away with disobeying commands. In a real dog pack, no one but the alpha dog would get this kind of treatment. Alpha doesn't have anything to do with size. The tiniest Chihuahua can be a canine Hitler. In fact, the smaller the dog, the more people tend to baby them and cater to them - making the dog feel even more dominant and in control of his humans.


Maybe you should read a few sites that discuss being alpha and how to get back in the lead role.
This paragraph was taken from this link http://www.sonic.net/~cdlcruz/GPCC/library/alpha.htm

Byrd
January 13th, 2008, 07:43 PM
One trick my obedience trainer taught us for control and 'dominance' is the 30 minute down. What you do is simple. You sit on the floor and tell your dog to lay down beside you, any time he tries to get up you put him back down, without saying a word. This is perfect to do during your favourite half hour program. After the half hour is up you release him. Eventually he will understand any simply lay down for a half hour. As time goes by you move further from the dog until eventually you should be able to sit across the room and have him lay quietly for half an hour. It really worked with our "alpha dog" issues.

Lukka'sma
January 13th, 2008, 07:47 PM
Good advice Byrd
Down stays are something I do with Lukka daily

TinaMcq
January 13th, 2008, 08:11 PM
Yes he has full run of the apartment any couch any bed when I sleep he sleeps with me, when I get up he gets up and is right under my feet it was like this since I brought him home. I will read the advice on how to get control back but I never had it cause he's always been like this we got him from the shelter. I will admit I do baby him cause of his size my fault I have to stop doing that but it will be hard he puts both his paws on my shoulders and sometime puts his head down he comes and sits on laps.

Lukka'sma
January 13th, 2008, 08:22 PM
Yes he has full run of the apartment any couch any bed when I sleep he sleeps with me, when I get up he gets up and is right under my feet it was like this since I brought him home. I will read the advice on how to get control back but I never had it cause he's always been like this we got him from the shelter. I will admit I do baby him cause of his size my fault I have to stop doing that but it will be hard he puts both his paws on my shoulders and sometime puts his head down he comes and sits on laps.

Of course he does:laughing: he's manipulating you, and he's gotten to where he gets attention when he decides he needs it, right? He's ALPHA
Gotta get him back down a few pegs

Also try and impliment NILIF, google it and read the info on those sites. It will all help you reverse the unwanted behaviors

Byrd
January 13th, 2008, 08:31 PM
Willow sleeps on my bed and sits beside me one the couch, we cuddle lots, but that doesn't mean I still can't be alpha. You have to prove that you're dominant.


Question, is he your first dog?

t.pettet
January 13th, 2008, 08:56 PM
Whether some people agree with his methods or not try watching The Dog Whisperer and you'll get an idea of how he handles out of control, barking, lunging dogs and his uses of positive energy.

Lukka'sma
January 13th, 2008, 09:09 PM
Willow sleeps on my bed and sits beside me one the couch, we cuddle lots, but that doesn't mean I still can't be alpha. You have to prove that you're dominant.


Question, is he your first dog?

I agree Byrd. Although Lukka does not sleep on the bed or get up on the couch I don't strictly follow each and every rule of NILIF or being alpha, but she knows where she stands in the pack, as does Willow.
TinaMcq, nobody is suggesting that you stick to those programs like they are etched in stone, we all allow certain rules to be broken, but you will come to know which ones you can alter without making your dog the king of the castle again:)

Byrd
January 13th, 2008, 09:28 PM
:laughing: Lukka's too big to get on the bed or couch.

The first step you can do is not to baby him. Don't talk baby talk to him, that's probably the worse thing you could do. Talking in a high pitched voice to a dog makes you lower on the totem. In nature puppies talk in high pitched voices, and who's higher on the pole, the adult or the puppy. Remember you are 'mom' and you have to do what mom would do in nature.

Luba
January 14th, 2008, 01:19 AM
http://www.sonic.net/~cdlcruz/GPCC/library/alpha.htm


A good article above for you to read on Alpha issues.

Also if your dog is lunging and growling at people I would be very careful. Don't even consider anything off leash or off muzzle, as the behaviour sounds unpredictable.

Do you notice if it is specific to men vs women? I bet there was some type of abuse involved.

As a start, when you are coming near someone make sure you greet the person with a high pitched 'hello there' voice, a happy voice. Then the dog will recognize this high pitch as something 'good'. If you notice any tensing of the neck or legs or any growling, you give the dog direction and instruction right away in a low tone firm voice. His name is Skipper?
So you say in a low growly type voice 'SKIPPER SIT' (hopefully he knows some basic commands? If not that's a big get a move on to learn in the obedience. It's all gonna take time but hey you and he both got time so good luck and keep us posted! :thumbs up

les
January 14th, 2008, 04:01 PM
I agree with "dominance" training and needing to show the dog that you're above him in the family. One of the things I found really helpful with my newest shelter dog is doors .... I always make sure I go in or out first and he waits until I tell him to come out or in.

My other dog had a problem with barking randomly at people when he was younger. I got him a citronella spray collar with a remote control - so I can control when it sprays. That worked very well and it doesn't hurt the dog - -they just don't like the smell.

Once you establish leadership your dog might not even need a citronella collar! =)

TinaMcq
January 15th, 2008, 05:10 AM
Skipper is my first dog we have had dogs when we grew up but this is my first. Skipper knows his commands when we are in the elevator he continues to barks even though he is sitting I always ask the person in there if its okay if we come in he has a muzzle on and I have full control, most of the time they say yes. I have noticed its alot of men that he does it to but some women to. I don't know the history of him but as the days go on I am pretty much guessing he was probably abused.

He is a sweet loveable loyal dog, and one day one day I say he will be fine to walk.

I have given up caring him out if someone set him off on our way down like walked into to the elavator and walked off, and I try to calm him down and its not working and we get to the bottum people will move from one side to the other ussually to the side I have skipper on and they notice he's already upset, they look at me and I say now why did you move go back to the other side so I can get him out. If that is making sense.

I don't know if you crate a dog that is not used to being crated?

LavenderRott
January 15th, 2008, 10:03 AM
First off - let me start by saying that an electronic collar is a tool, that, in the right hands, on the right dog can be very effective. In 30 years with dogs, the only tool that I think has no reason to ever be on any dog is a choker.

Having said that - it sounds like Skipper is in need of that training class you are already getting ready to take and some socialization.

amatazes
January 15th, 2008, 10:10 AM
to each is own as far as training your doggie. I don't respond well to negative reinforcement so i don't think my dog would either. I have a few friends that use and interesting alternative. it's a dog collar that sprays water in the dogs face if it barks. It's also a bit inconvenient for the dog but i've seen it work.

they get annoyed and then stop barking. that covers the barking however, you dog needs training.

If he looks like he will attack then he might some day attack. Please go to a trainer immediately.

Longblades
January 16th, 2008, 10:10 AM
http://www.cappdt.ca/public/jpage/1/p/Article2RewardSystem/content.do

The link above is to an article on the "Two Reward System" designed to help with dogs who act aggressively on leash. It's from the Canadian Association of Professional Pet Dog Trainers where you will find articles on several different training problems.

TinaMcq
January 18th, 2008, 05:04 AM
Skipper is signed up for beginner puppy starts next thursday. I went to pet smart and the manager came up and watched skipper he only goes after men and people wearing dark clothing. After some time he put his hand in a fist for skipper to sniff as it turns out (skipper was still barking at him like crazy) he just wanted to be petted. I said I need to stop the barking and acting crazy cause if thats all he wants people won't go near a dog looking crazy if all he wants to be played with. I asked about the spray collars and he said said they work in the beginning but after some time the dog learns to turn its head so it won't work then anymore. The water spray bottle tried that but then he attacked me my fingers along with the water bottle ended up in his mouth he never bite me just enough for me to feel his teeth so I ditched that idea, and I didn't just do it once I did for awhile and it was the same reaction.

Jim Hall
January 18th, 2008, 09:58 AM
there ya go so before he gets a pet make him sit and be still

Use the pettting as a reward

Lukka'sma
January 18th, 2008, 10:00 AM
I know you're going to get this resolved TinaMcq. Keep us updated to the progress:)

AMYAPC
January 21st, 2008, 01:23 PM
I use a shock coller! I have a very bad little coon hound, I mostly only use the "beeper" on the remote, in two years I have used the "shocker" only twice. It helped her control herself from repeated bad behavior. Sometimes the alert button is all you'd need, she has been to training and still has her moments, just helps me keep my sanity!

TinaMcq
January 21st, 2008, 06:21 PM
I really don't know know what to do about the barking I have grown men jumping and screaming when he is barking he's on a short leash with a muzzle he can't go anywhere and he can't bite anyone but people are complaining and if I can't get him to stop I will have to get rid of him and I don't want to do that. I am looking into a pronge collar but I don't think that will do anything about the barking and that is what is scaring everyone. We go to petsmart and walk around for him to get used to people and other dogs but nothing seems to work.

Luba
January 21st, 2008, 06:30 PM
Patience and time Tina, and you'll be rewarded and so will the dog.
Besides, you couldn't think about getting rid of him. After all you've fallen in love it's plain to see. And if he does get rehomed, odds are he won't have someone quite so understanding and ready to work with him. He'd probably end up being beaten.

I know it is frustrating and obedience is good :thumbs up consider behavioural training as well. After all we really have no clue what horrors this dog went through in the past.

It may take a male friend of yours coming over to the house several times dressed in dark clothing, to see him and giving him a treat each time.

I had a male rescue that was like this as well. Terribly afraid of black robes and coats both male and female. It can be worked on but you need to find out the best avenue to do that. :lightbulb:

TinaMcq
January 22nd, 2008, 05:19 AM
Thank you! You are right I had a moment of weakness there. I believe deep down that they can't tell me to get rid of him because I am doing everything right the muzzle and a short leash with full control, it doesn't help when those who are afraid of him jump around and scream and if push comes to shoove I will say that. I didn't realize that the training and behaviour are two different things. I will have to look into it.

TinaMcq
January 22nd, 2008, 05:34 PM
I've just had a wonderful time taking skipper out. We were waiting for the elevator and it came with a woman on (I knew her) she said it was fine skipper got in and right away jumped on her and stood there while she pet him not a peep. We got to the main floor and there was a man there in dark clothing to boot skipper did a little bark and continued walking we got to the main doors and a man was there holding the door for us I said are you sure? he said fine skipper jumped on him like a friendly jump like pet me jump not a peep again. I am so proud of him when we got up here he got a banana!!!!! Plus he sat for his banana....

Luba
January 22nd, 2008, 06:15 PM
When he goes to jump up, you give him the command 'OFF' in a stern voice and redirect him with the lead and give him the command "SIT" then of course reward him with 'GOOD BOY'

Be sure he's hearing you as well and make sure that there's no issue with hearing/deafness.

Obedience will teach your dog manners and basic commands but won't work on specific behavioural isssues.

The more I read, the more to me it jsut sounds like the dog is a big goofy lad that needs to learn and be given direction.

Barking sometimes is just being goofy and happy like 'hey I'm here do you see me, bark bark bark hey it's me it's me Skipper come play with me'.

What you need is someone who's going to be able to see him, have the barking situation 'recreated' so that a behaviouralist will tell you what type of barkign it is. Whether it's play, aggression, fear, uncertainty, protection.
In my opinion you need to find that out because I'm having second thoughts on whether this is aggression. It may well not be. That way if you find it's not aggression or he's not lunging to bite. Some dogs just are goofy loud mouths that jump up because they want to play. It can be intimidating if you don't know what's going on or what to do.

If he's not an aggressive dog and he's not under the new pit bull legislation or anything then you may be able to work towards getting the muzzle off.

Dont' give up, as frustrating as it is... and when he gets you frustrated give him a big hug and reward him 'immediately' when he's well behaved.

Even when you're just walking along nicely and he's not pulling/jumping and he's well behaved keep telling him 'good boy good boy' and give him hugs and pats. All will work out in time, I'm sure of it!!:thumbs up

mika140
January 22nd, 2008, 09:48 PM
Sounds like things are moving in a better direction now and you're on the way to more positive stuff with the pup. :thumbs up Even outside of obedience classes, it might not be a bad idea to teach him a "quiet" command. It's pretty easy to introduce. Just find a time when he barks (without it being too heavy a distraction), such as inside your home when he wants something, etc. Then say "quiet" and wait til he stops. You can even hold the reward where he can see it and say "no" in a soft voice (then repeat the "quiet" command) if he continues barking. As soon as he stops barking you can use a clicker or cue word (like "ok" or "yes") and give him a treat right away. It's helped me out a lot and then if I tell my dog to sit and he does, but continues to bark, I can give that second command and it makes more sense to him.

And just a note on the e-collars.....that utube video was hilarious :laughing: I have shocked myself with an e-collar and I can tell you it was nothing like that. Anyone who has used or uses one for a dog absolutely should have tested it on themselves first....only fair. With the one I have, you start at 0 and you cannot feel a thing. Eventually when you do feel it, it's like a little tingle. Obviously you can go up from there, but there's no need to really. I'll link to a very good site about ecollar training below. The site shows how the correct level to work a dog is the level at which the dog first feels the collar. The dog usually reacts as if a raindrop or a bug landed on him. None of this crazy painful stuff.

I'm not saying that the ecollar should be used for this specific dog....it sounds like some positive reward based training would make more sense to start. But I'm not opposed to ecollars and think that if used right, they are actually much more humane than choke or pinch collars for dogs that require a hard correction occasionally.

http://www.loucastle.com/

TinaMcq
January 30th, 2008, 07:19 PM
Hi, Well skipper is doing amazing getting better and better as the days goes on. We were supposed to start our puppy training last thursday but were offered private lessons to start then in to a smaller class later so we agreed, so now they start this coming saturday.

As far as the going out and barking at people yes he still does that but he is not doing it as much as before what I mean we were coming up and in the elevator there ended up being 4 of us not including skipper he jumped on everyone and the only time he barked is when the person got off the elevator before he did lol. Now I have to teach him not to jump on them but hey I will take this over the barking anytime.

He is afraid of the hallways I am assuming because it is dark but baby steps and we are getting there.

Byrd
January 30th, 2008, 08:17 PM
That's great! I'm glad you're making progress. :thumbs up

TinaMcq
February 4th, 2008, 08:26 PM
Well we had our first class and the trainer said she is very impressed in the difference in skipper since the first time I brought him in. We learned alot in our first class and she said also said that I should keep him away from the other dogs even though the bark he lets out is not I am going to attack you but lets play but he can be rough, she had her dog with her and skipper well just a totally different doggie. We have one more private lesson then we are in a small class after that. Hope he keeps it up. We practice every day I make him earn his dinner, and the walking well when he pulls I turn in the other direction lol but now he thinks its a game it will come but its cute one thing at a time. Glad the barking is coming along great.

hazelrunpack
February 4th, 2008, 08:33 PM
The updates just keep getting better and better, TinaMcQ! Congratulations on the good work you're doing with Skipper! :highfive:

Kelly C
February 5th, 2008, 09:08 AM
I only read some of the replies so I apologise if i repeat anything. Shock collars cannot be used for aggressive behavior as they will trigger an attack. I have one and have used it on my hand. Even on low setting the sensation is unbelievably unpleasant -though I can't call it pain exactly.

I spent $500 on it seven yrs ago to stop one of my dogs from eating horse and other poo. It was so effective it's been in the closet ever since.

It is a very drastic measure and has the potential to make a neurotic basket case out of a dog if used inappropriately. It is a last resort for one behavior only that isn't aggression related and could harm your dog if it isn't stopped.

Kelly

PennyC
February 13th, 2008, 07:21 PM
I would say a definat NO to the shock colar but i can tell you of a device that not very many ppl know about but it works magic!! It is called the Gentle Leader. This device is great for training, it works for a dog that is impossible to walk it works on barking dogs and just simple training like sit and lie down. it can be purchased at any veterinary clinic for about 30 $ and must be used appropriatly, the clinic technicians will gove you allt he information on how it must be used. Also if you are not interested in this mecanism, they also made a collar that is similar to the shock colar but it sprays the dog with a myst and stops the dog from barking it is much gentler then the shock colar.

Kinguni
February 14th, 2008, 04:48 AM
I'm not a fan of the Gentle Leader. We were recommended one for Shabba at our first obedience training session, which we bought and used, but she hated it so much that when walk time came she'd run away. That said, I also believe that a shock collar can only be for extreme circumstances.

TinaMcq
February 14th, 2008, 04:23 PM
The gentle leader is the one that goes around the mouth and some attach to the collar and some don't right..... If it is I already had that he bit right threw the mouth piece now I have the one that goes around both front legs and up around the back where the leash gets attached..... it seems to be okay alot easier to walk him and I don't feel like I am chocking him tring to hold him back......