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Dog food ingredients help

budboybudboy77
January 4th, 2008, 09:39 PM
Hi any comments on these ingredients for a puppy.
Thks

Chicken, ground oats, fish meal, brown rice protein, ground whole barley, chicken fat (naturally preserved), ground brown rice, pearled barley, ground whole flaxseed, inulin, whole dried eggs, yucca schidigera, salt, monosodium phosphate, potassium chloride, garlic, taurine, vitamin E, choline chloride, beta-carotene, chondroitin sulphate, glucosamine hydrochloride, spinach, kelp, broccoli, sweet potato, apples, blueberries, pears, bananas, vitamin A acetate, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, ferrous sulphate, zinc oxide, niacin supplement, calcium pantothenate, copper sulphate, manganous oxide, riboflavin supplement, thiamine hydrochloride, calcium iodate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, sodium selenite, natural flavor.

(This product may contain tracé amounts of peanuts)


Thks again

rainbow
January 5th, 2008, 12:11 AM
Without getting too technical it is much too grainy imo.

StumpsMom
January 5th, 2008, 12:33 AM
I second Rainbow's opinion...too grainy. But I'm a huge Orijen fan (human grade meat is the base with veg and fruit but no grains). I made this choice because I'm not comfortable feeding Stump RAW, and in my research, the risk of bloat is lessened when a Mastiff is not eating grains.

JMO :)

Winston
January 5th, 2008, 07:00 AM
Hey Budboy! I have Winston who is choc lab/shp cross...He has had issues since I got in as a puppy from my neighbour! I used every food the vet recomended for 7 years...I honestly knew nothing about food...but I listened and discussed it here in the food forum...He used to get the itchies all the time, red sores on his belly, the runs all the time and his tummy was always very noisy....I tried gastro vet food, allergy vet food..etc etc...Only to sit down look at the ingrediants and go OMG! The meat in the vet food was the 6th ingrediant in the list....Anyway long story short someone suggested Orijen and I went for it..It is 75% meat 25% fruit and veggies...NO GRAIN, NO GLUTEN, and NO BY PRODUCTS...it has been almost a year now and Winston has none of the symptoms I listed!! not kidding it is true! I think he either had an allergy to grain or he just needed more meat in his diet. (not to mention the fact that the vet food is crap) I was concerned because he is a very large dog and the protein is high, but I have not had any problems. (oh! forgot to mention his poops are perfect and he has not had any problems since the change over!)

They have a white paper and a ingrediant analysis ..just google Orijen Dog Food. Now Shaker is a pup still so you will be able to look at the puppy food....This site also has some great discussions about food but get ready for what I called INFORMATION OVERLOAD!!

Good Luck

Cindy

budboybudboy77
January 5th, 2008, 11:41 AM
Ok thks all, too grainy from all the first set of ingredients i guess?

Orijen is good but it says not to be given to puppies because of the high protein. even though it says puppy on package ?:confused:


Thks again

want4rain
January 5th, 2008, 12:35 PM
i dont think its too terribly bad of a food if you supplement with fresh food or even go with two or three different dog foods, alternating. maybe that food along WITH a grain free dog food?? grains are not unhealthy for your dog, just huge amounts of it arent. whole grains are better than parts of them. i suspect that a fair amount of the protein in this food is derived from the brown rice protein... and that far more of this food is grain than meat (although meat is listed first) because you would have to split the top 8 ingredients equally making less than(to accommodate all of the lesser ingredients listed next) 3/8ths actual animal product.

-ashley

budboybudboy77
January 5th, 2008, 12:50 PM
Ok makes sense but is the Orijen puppy food at high protein any good for a large breed dog ,as suggested above?


Thks

rainbow
January 5th, 2008, 05:30 PM
Ok thks all, too grainy from all the first set of ingredients i guess?

Orijen is good but it says not to be given to puppies because of the high protein. even though it says puppy on package ?:confused:

Thks again

I'm confused....where does it say that? :confused:



Ok makes sense but is the Orijen puppy food at high protein any good for a large breed dog ,as suggested above?

Thks

Yes...Orijen makes a formula for large breed puppies...

http://www.championpetfoods.com/orijen/products/puppyLarge.aspx

budboybudboy77
January 5th, 2008, 08:16 PM
It says that on the review sites and dog food reviews.
I was told by the seller that the Orijen is good but is also missing taste that some dogs love ,taste meaning easy to eat and smell.
The seller I was talking to has a eskimo type pure bred and he has to mix the Orijen with either holistic can or dry.

I'll pass on the Orijen for now ,way too much protein, bad for the liver and digestion- I was told this by a vet.
I am trying the food above with these ingredients from another brand:

Chicken meal, brewer’s rice, chicken, barley, beet pulp, chicken fat naturally preserved with mixed tocopherols, oats, dehydrated whole eggs, sundried tomato pomace, whole flax seeds, lecithin, natural flavor, canola oil, calcium propionate, choline chloride, mannan-oligosaccharides, glucosamine sulphate, Yucca schidigera extracts, chondroitin sulphate, vitamins and minerals.


Any comments pls

rainbow
January 6th, 2008, 04:01 AM
It says that on the review sites and dog food reviews.

Could you please post these websites.


I was told by the seller that the Orijen is good but is also missing taste that some dogs love ,taste meaning easy to eat and smell.

There are alot of people on this forum that will disagree with your "seller".


I'll pass on the Orijen for now ,way too much protein, bad for the liver and digestion- I was told this by a vet.

Most vets don't know much about dog nutrition.


I am trying the food above with these ingredients from another brand:

Chicken meal, brewer’s rice, chicken, barley, beet pulp, chicken fat naturally preserved with mixed tocopherols, oats, dehydrated whole eggs, sundried tomato pomace, whole flax seeds, lecithin, natural flavor, canola oil, calcium propionate, choline chloride, mannan-oligosaccharides, glucosamine sulphate, Yucca schidigera extracts, chondroitin sulphate, vitamins and minerals.


Any comments pls

Good luck. :fingerscr

budboybudboy77
January 6th, 2008, 12:13 PM
Hi rainbow and others what did you think of the other ingredients?

Here is one site i seen that warning for the pups.

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=913&cat=8
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=914&cat=8

I don't disagree with you on the Orijen food , it is great food but I am just a little scared of the high protein.
I agree with you also on the vets, they don't really know food - vets around here sell Hills products - real garbage in my eyes.


Oh I bought a little bag of puppy Orijen for 2 $ to try for Shaker - he actually loved the food.I don't know where to go from here.:confused:

Thks for the feedback

want4rain
January 6th, 2008, 12:38 PM
I'll pass on the Orijen for now ,way too much protein, bad for the liver and digestion- I was told this by a vet.

protein isnt a problem, its where the protein comes from. please read this article and even cross reference it with other articles on the same subject-

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=protein_myth

-ashley

rainbow
January 6th, 2008, 07:42 PM
I agree it is not the protein that is the problem. Most of the information people are mentioning is referring to protein from carb sources as that's what most kibbles used to be based on. The better quality premium/holistic kibbles are meat based protein which is alot easier for dogs to digest.

With large breed dogs the only thing you need to be concerned about is the calcium and phosphorous content.

Here is some information on identifying better kibbles. Also click on the "Ingredients to Avoid" link on the left hand side of the page.

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=betterproducts

rainbow
January 6th, 2008, 07:55 PM
Hi rainbow and others what did you think of the other ingredients?


They're so so but I would like to see the exact vitamin ingredient list. I am willing to bet that menadione sodium bisulphite complex also known as Vitamin K3 is included. :yuck: :eek:

bendyfoot
January 7th, 2008, 10:35 AM
I was told by the seller that the Orijen is good but is also missing taste that some dogs love ,taste meaning easy to eat and smell.
Any comments pls

Wow, seriously??? This is the smelliest stuff I've ever fed my dogs, hands-down!!! Granted, we use the fish formula, but they LOVE the taste. They're excited about every meal, even the last little less-fresh crumbs on the bottom of the container, which used to get turned down when we used other foods.

Both my dogs love this food, so do my cats. Everyone is the healthiest they've ever been. Some benefits I've seen so far: increased muscle mass, fat loss, great energy, amazing soft thick shiny coats, cleaner teeth, no digestive issues (Boo used to throw up, now doesn't, Jaida used to have soft stool and terrible flatulence, now doesn't), Boo (the sr. kitty) is looking better now than she did 3 years ago, Riley doesn't get UTIs anymore (used to be chronic), cats don't get dandruff anymore (even in winter), poos are always well-formed...I could go on and on. It's more expensive than some foods for sure, but I'm a total convert...you'd have to be awfully convincing to get me to get these animals off Orijen...and we've seen all these benefits in only a few months.

ETA: Oh, and as for the protein thing, I know everyone gets concerned about it all the time, but I never understood how CARNIVORES (at least for cats) could possibly eat too much protein???
FWIW, we started Jaida (GSD) on adult Orijen when she was about 8 months old.

budboybudboy77
January 7th, 2008, 11:59 AM
Ok I read all the info now and a little while back, now those 2 different ingredients are from 2 different brand names, one is 1st Choice , the other is Oven-baked Tradition.So anyone can check these out on these 2 websites if you're interested in more info for the bad and good of it.

http://www.ovenbakedtradition.com/
http://www.1stchoice.ca/en/index.php?int=1

Ok so why those reviews on the links for the review site?

I also subscribe to a yahoo dog nutrition group ,here is one person looking for the right kibble:

. Re: kibble recommendations please
Posted by: "Kathy" momto1k9
Thu Jan 3, 2008 9:58 am (PST)
I am hoping this will work. I can't do raw, just the thought of me touching raw food makes me feel ill, I applaud those who can. I love Innova food but it doesn't love her. I had two saint bernards who did wonderful on Innova mixed with a little home cooked. They never had a problem on it and looked wonderful. I might try grain free when she gets older, she is only 7 months old now and I have been told that the grain free is too high in protein for her. This is from other boxer owners. They say to wait until she is about 18 months old to try it. I like the thought of Orijen but will wait. I called their customer service and they suggested I wait also which kind of contradicts what they say on their website but anyhoo for right now it is trial and error. I am finding this group very helpful to read and learn.

Kathy
----- Original Message -----
From: Joy Cenicola
To: K9Nutrition@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: [K9Nutrition] kibble recommendations please


I am still confused, I know it is good food but why is Orijen telling her to wait to feed her puppy this high protein food?

Thks

Love4himies
January 7th, 2008, 12:47 PM
I am very confused on this issue, which is not hard because I am not nearly as educated on pet nutrition as other members, but here goes:

If a dog is in the wild, momma dog would bring back prey (protein, calcium, and all) for her dogs to eat, meaning their main diet is protein, calcium and all the nutrients found in meat and bones. In humans, unless a child is severly under/over fed, then it is growth hormones that determine bone growth is it not? Not whether the child receives 2 or 8 glasses of milk per day, vs the 4 recommended, or whether the child is fed meat twice a day or not at all (I know we humans can easily go without meat, but my point is the amount of protein and growth rate) does not really play a roll in how much the bones grow. Is it not also true that the growth hormone controls bone growth in puppies as well, not necessarily whether they dog received 25% or 35% protein?

Love4himies
January 7th, 2008, 12:50 PM
Also, I fed my foster kittens raw, cooked meat along with canned Wellness, Felidae, Go Natural, and Orijen kibble and they did not turn out to be large kitties, but did have fantastic muscle tone.

H.P.
January 7th, 2008, 07:52 PM
If a dog is in the wild, momma dog would bring back prey

Exactly what I was thinking, grains are not part of the original dog diet, I am not sure of the purpose grains serve. Obviously they do not provide any needed nutrients. (while I have tried going raw, I have reverted to Canidae kibble, grain and all)

budboybudboy77
January 7th, 2008, 08:00 PM
Thks for the advice and comments ,anyone else pls look over my above thread with the yahoo stuff on it and the links.

Thks

rainbow
January 7th, 2008, 08:18 PM
Ok I read all the info now and a little while back, now those 2 different ingredients are from 2 different brand names, one is 1st Choice , the other is Oven-baked Tradition.So anyone can check these out on these 2 websites if you're interested in more info for the bad and good of it.

http://www.ovenbakedtradition.com/
http://www.1stchoice.ca/en/index.php?int=1



1. Oven Baked Tradition I already said I thought it was too grainy imo. It also says at the bottom of the page "may contain trace amounts of peanuts". I wonder why? What else are they manufacturing at the same plant?

2. 1st Choice Large Breed Puppy

Ingredients:
Chicken meal, brewer’s rice, ground yellow corn, corn gluten meal, beet pulp, chicken fat naturally preserved with mixed tocopherols, dehydrated whole eggs, sundried tomato pomace, whole flax seeds, lecithin, natural flavor, canola oil, monosodium phosphate, calcium propionate, choline chloride, mannan-oligosaccharides, glucosamine sulphate, Yucca schidigera extracts, chondroitin sulphate, vitamins and minerals.

This is also grainy imo and brewers rice and corn gluten meal are two ingredients that you should avoid. They do not list their vitamins individually but I'm pretty sure it would contain menadione sodium bisulfite complex like I already stated.

Have you read any of the information on the dog food project website? Here is the list of ingredients to avoid and click on all the other links on the left hand side of the page for lots of excellent information....

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=badingredients

rainbow
January 7th, 2008, 08:22 PM
I also subscribe to a yahoo dog nutrition group ,here is one person looking for the right kibble:

. Re: kibble recommendations please
Posted by:
Thu Jan 3, 2008 9:58 am (PST)
I am hoping this will work. I can't do raw, just the thought of me touching raw food makes me feel ill, I applaud those who can. I love Innova food but it doesn't love her. I had two saint bernards who did wonderful on Innova mixed with a little home cooked. They never had a problem on it and looked wonderful. I might try grain free when she gets older, she is only 7 months old now and I have been told that the grain free is too high in protein for her. This is from other boxer owners. They say to wait until she is about 18 months old to try it. I like the thought of Orijen but will wait. I called their customer service and they suggested I wait also which kind of contradicts what they say on their website but anyhoo for right now it is trial and error. I am finding this group very helpful to read and learn.

Kathy
----- Original Message -----
From: Joy Cenicola
To: K9Nutrition@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: [K9Nutrition] kibble recommendations please


I am still confused, I know it is good food but why is Orijen telling her to wait to feed her puppy this high protein food?

Thks

I am thinking there must have been a misunderstanding somewhere. :shrug: I have emailed Peter at Champion Pet Foods (Orijen) telling him about this incident and asked him for clarification. I will post his reply when I receive it.

budboybudboy77
January 8th, 2008, 08:10 PM
Ok thks ,I did read all the info and I'll wait for an answer.In the meantime i'll look for more info also

budboybudboy77
January 10th, 2008, 12:23 PM
Any news at all , thks.

sizzledog
January 10th, 2008, 03:12 PM
I believe many people (myself included) balk at feeding a completely grain-free diet to puppies is that there is evidence that a food high in protein may cause bones to grow too fast in medium to large breed puppies, which can eventually lead to damage to the bones and joints of the dog.

The idea of high protein kibble is fairly new, and I for one do not want to risk it. I would much rather feed a high quality grained kibble to a puppy and then switch over to grain free when the dog is mature. There are plenty of great kibbles out there that contain grain, and I'd feel uncomfortable "tempting the fates" by feeding any puppy a food that may harm them structurally.

To my knowledge, there has been no in-depth research into high protein diets in puppies. Until there is a definitive answer on the effects of high protein kibble on med- to large breed puppies, I won't risk it... if I wanted a guinea pig, I would have gotten one. ;)

rainbow
January 10th, 2008, 06:22 PM
Any news at all , thks.

Haven't heard from Peter @ Champion Pet Foods yet. Here is some more information from Mary Straus @ dogaware .....

I cover this topic on my web site, where I discuss the benefits of
high-protein diets and the fact that they are not dangerous:

http://www.dogaware.com/dogfeeding.html#protein

Mary Straus
www.dogaware.com

rainbow
January 10th, 2008, 07:14 PM
I believe many people (myself included) balk at feeding a completely grain-free diet to puppies is that there is evidence that a food high in protein may cause bones to grow too fast in medium to large breed puppies, which can eventually lead to damage to the bones and joints of the dog.

The idea of high protein kibble is fairly new, and I for one do not want to risk it. I would much rather feed a high quality grained kibble to a puppy and then switch over to grain free when the dog is mature. There are plenty of great kibbles out there that contain grain, and I'd feel uncomfortable "tempting the fates" by feeding any puppy a food that may harm them structurally.

To my knowledge, there has been no in-depth research into high protein diets in puppies. Until there is a definitive answer on the effects of high protein kibble on med- to large breed puppies, I won't risk it... if I wanted a guinea pig, I would have gotten one. ;)

It's not the high protein that is the problem. It is the calcium and particularily the phosphorous content that you need to be concerned about. And, there have been studies done by Purina and in the Netherlands...

http://www.b-naturals.com/Jan2004.php

budboybudboy77
January 11th, 2008, 08:30 PM
Ok thks I appreciate all the advice and feedback , I'll also check out those links rainbow.
I also do not want to make my dog a guinea pig ,I just want the truth and the facts.No offense to anyone , just doing my best to give a good life to a new puppy.

Thks

rainbow
January 11th, 2008, 10:34 PM
Here is the reply I received from Peter at Orijen. If you click on the websites he refers to you will get additional information....


Hello again ***** and thanks for writing on this subject.


We agree with your position regarding the affect of protein on large breed puppies and the kidneys: In both cases, calcium and in particular phosphorus are the key indicators – not protein. Given that we are producers, I can certainly understand that dog owners would be skeptical of our position, so the best way to present our protein-based argument might be to offer you research and opinion independent of our own.

I’ll start by confirming that AAFCO does not publish a maximum protein amount for dogs and neither do they have a minimum for carbohydrate. As protein in the diet increases, carbohydrate decreases which mimics the natural diet for which dogs and cats are evolved (in nature, dogs eat very few carbohydrates and are evolved to metabolize proteins and fats from meat). AAFCO however does set maximum levels for calcium and phosphorus (these can be substantiated by googling “AAFCO nutrient levels for dogs”). When present in excess, phosphorus in particular is known to have a negative effect on the kidneys (see research cited below) and, when combined with excess calcium, phosphorus also affect the rate of skeletal development (a concern for large breeds). Now we’re not saying that AAFCO is the “be all, end all” – they’re not, but AAFCO does set a minimum and maximum nutrient inclusions, which provides a useful start point (interestingly enough, you’ll also see brands like ROYAL CANIN and EUKANUBA SIZE now feature large breed puppy diets above 30% in protein – which was unheard of 3 or 4 years ago…

Although I can’t comment specifically on the information your member received from our customer service, I can apologize as the response was likely a result of misunderstanding or miscommunication. On large breed puppies (taken from the “b natural site” (An excellent information resource) http://b-naturals.com):


www.eukanuba-eu.com
This article reiterates that high protein does not cause OCD or HD, in either the hips or elbows:

Research into the growth of Great Danes (Nap RC, The Netherlands,) has shown that the protein level of a diet has no significant influence on skeletal development. High protein intake does not result in increased risk for OCD or HD, and there is no effect on the development in the longitudinal growth of the bone."

Additionally, while protein does not cause orthopedic problems, other nutrients can.

www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu
"In addition to excessive calcium intake, researchers have shown that over nutrition can also initiate these disturbances in skeletal maturation and growth. An excess protein intake, without an excess of other nutrients revealed NOT to influence skeletal maturation and growth in growing Great Danes (Ref. 2)."

This would include supplementation of calcium to processed diets, or could occur when feeding raw diets to puppies that are more than 50% raw meaty bones. Calcium amounts are adequate in commercial pet foods, and a diet of no more than 40% to 50% raw meaty bones is an appropriate amount for a growing puppy. This article also concludes that certain breeds may require less calcium than others for proper growth:

Further, the above article goes on to state:

"Therefore it is advised not to feed young dogs ad libitum or excessively, to prevent the development of (causative factors for) osteoartrosis. It is also common practice to advise a weight loosing programme to those dogs which suffer from osteoarthrosis as an aspect of conservative treatment or as an aid in surgical treatment of dogs with ED."

It is not excess protein that causes joint problems, but over feeding dogs can contribute to arthritis and orthopedic problems. Please note that most orthopedic and joint problems are inherited, but puppies and dogs that are over weight have a greater chance of an increase in pain and discomfort, and the potential of developing orthopedic problems as younger animals and arthritis later on in their life.

And while some nutritionists recommend feeding more fiber than meat and protein for weight gain, this can also have consequences, as it can block absorption:

www4.nas.edu
"The most obvious way to help a dog trim down is to feed it smaller amounts of food on its regular feeding schedule, and to make sure the dog is not being fed table scraps or getting into the food bowls of other dogs in the neighborhood. Owners may also choose a low-calorie "diet" dog food or food high in fiber, which may help the dog feel full without consuming too many calories. Too much fiber, however, can reduce the absorption of important nutrients."

In conclusion, a logical response to feeding puppies would include:

- Use high quality proteins:

These include using premium brands of dog food, or if feeding a raw or home cooked diet, use as much variety in animal proteins as possible. Don't skimp on the amount of proteins fed as these contribute to healthy growth, organ health and strong immune systems.

- Keep puppies and growing dogs lean.

Overweight and obese dogs have a much higher chance of developing arthritis and orthopedic problems.

- Don't overdose the Calcium:

Do not supplement with calcium if you use a commercial diet. For raw diets, use 50% or less of raw meaty bones in growing dogs. For home cooked diets, supplement at no more than 800 milligrams per pound of food served.

- Don't use high fiber diets for weight reduction:

Fiber, starches and grains can actually block certain nutrient uptake from the food served.




As regards the concept of protein negatively affecting the kidneys this is simply not the case. We have not found a single study to confirm this position and have mounds to the contrary. I have taken the liberty of copying a few of the studies that are available on-line below. I should perhaps also point out that not all high-protein diets are equal. Some foods generate high-protein by using meals, which are typically high in ash, and therefore high in mineral content of which – you guessed it – elevated levels calcium and phosphorus would be a concern to large breed puppies, and phosphorus in general for kidney health in dogs of all breeds and life-stages. The information below is taken from www.dogaware.com – a great site for general information.

Please write again if I can be of further assistance and thanks for choosing ORIJEN.



Warm Regards,
Peter
www.championpetfoods.com





Is a Low Protein Diet Necessary or Desirable?
Following are links to a series of articles and studies on the roles of protein and phosphorus in the diet of dogs with kidney failure. I have provided excerpts from these articles, but I would encourage you to read them in their entirety if you are dealing with a dog with kidney disease, as many of them contain a great deal more information than I will show here.

Dogs with kidney problems by Dr. Lucy Pinkston, D.V.M.
"Because by-products of protein digestion are the main toxins that need to be excreted by the kidneys, an obvious assumption might be that all one needs to do is to cut out the protein and the kidneys wouldn't have any more hard work to do. . . . There is significant evidence, however, that the daily protein requirements actually increase slightly for dogs in chronic renal failure. Therefore, severely restricting the protein for such a dog is likely to result in protein malnutrition, in spite of the fact that the levels of blood urea nitrogen, or BUN (the primary by-product of protein metabolism) would be correspondingly lower." This article contains a great deal more useful information in easy to read format.

Are High Protein Diets Harmful to a Dog's Kidneys? from the Veterinary Services Department, Drs. Foster & Smith, Inc.
"The myth that high-protein diets are harmful to kidneys probably started because, in the past, patients with kidney disease were commonly placed on low-protein (and thus low-nitrogen) diets. Now we often put them on a diet that is not necessarily very low in protein but contains protein that is more digestible so there are fewer nitrogen by-products."

The Mythology of Protein Restriction for Dogs with Reduced Renal Function by Kenneth C. Bovee, DVM, MMedSc
"Morris subsequently developed, produced, and sold a low-protein diet, KD, for dogs with renal failure. He and others were influenced by the erroneous work hypertrophy concept for urea excretion advanced by Addis. While experimental or clinical data were never published to support the value of this or other diets, the concept was broadly accepted without challenge in the veterinary literature." This article talks about the history of protein restriction, and about 10 recent experimental studies that have failed to provide evidence of the benefit of reduced dietary protein to influence the course of renal failure. This article is no longer on line, but I have a copy of it that I could send to anyone who is interested in reading it (ask for Bovee.pdf).

Nutrition and Renal Function from the Purina Research Report
"Dietary Protein and Renal Function: Results of multiple studies indicated that there were no adverse effects of the high protein diets." This report also includes information on metabolic acidosis and on the beneficial effects of omega-3 essential fatty acids in patients with chronic renal failure. The complete reports on each of the three studies mentioned in this report are no longer available online, but I have copies of them that I could send to anyone who is interested in reading more, as follows: "Effects of Dietary Lipids on Renal Function in Dogs and Cats" (ask for Brown.pdf); "Effects of Dietary Protein Intake on Renal Functions" (ask for Finco.pdf); and "Acid-Base, Electrolytes, and Renal Failure" (ask for Polzin.pdf).

Feeding the Older Dog from the SpeedyVet Clinical Nutrition Library
"The assumption was that low-protein diets retarded the progression of renal degeneration. This assumption was disproved, using partially nephrectomised dogs, which showed no uraemic signs and had reduced but stable renal function for 48 months. These dogs did better on moderate-protein diets than on low-protein diets. There is no direct evidence that high protein intake damages canine kidneys or that reducing protein intake in dogs with renal dysfunction results in preservation of either renal structure or function."

Dietary Management of Chronic Polyuric Renal Failure from the SpeedyVet Clinical Nutrition Library
"Dietary protein restriction improves the clinical signs and quality of life of uraemic animals with both naturally occurring and experimentally induced renal failure. . . . However it is highly questionable whether protein restriction is appropriate in the azotaemic, but non-uraemic patient. The main risk of protein restriction is protein deficiency. The protein and amino acid requirements of dogs and cats with chronic renal failure have not been established, but may well be increased. . . . The main justification for protein restriction early in the course of renal failure would be if it was proven to slow progression of disease. The data that are available do not support this case in dogs. Dietary protein has been shown to affect renal haemodynamics in the dog, however, moderate protein restriction does not alleviate glomerular hypertension, hyperfiltration and hypertrophy. . . . Thus there is no evidence that moderate protein restriction slows the progression of renal failure in dogs, and it is not recommended in dogs which are not uraemic."

Demystifying Myths About Protein from Today's Breeder Magazine
"In contrast, research over the past 10 years or so has shown that protein does not harm the kidney of dogs. In studies conducted at the University of Georgia in the early 1990s, both in dogs with chronic kidney failure and in older dogs with only one kidney, protein levels as high as 34 percent caused no ill effects. . . . In other studies, David S. Kronfeld, Ph.D., indicated that compared with high- or low-protein diets, moderate-protein diets, those with up to 34 percent protein, had no ill effects in dogs with chronic renal failure and were associated with general improvement."

Fortify The Food Bowl For The Aging Canine by Susan Thorpe-Vargas, Ph.D. and John C. Cargill, M.A., M.B.A., M.S.
"Because of certain biochemical requirements, the healthy geriatric dog requires about 50 percent more protein than the young adult, and depending on the quality of the protein, it should make up 20 percent to 30 percent of the total calories ingested. . . . Until recently, protein restriction was recommended in an effort to protect renal function. Limiting protein fails to prevent urinary filtration problems . . . Indeed, newer research shows dietary protein is not detrimental to kidney function. On the contrary, protein restriction can result in impaired wound healing, diminished immune function and lowered enzyme activities and cellular turnover. Those dogs with impaired renal function do better with dietary phosphorus restriction; however, limiting this mineral is unlikely to delay the onset of renal disease or to benefit healthy geriatric dogs."

Dietary Management for Clinical Disorders in Dogs from the Journal of Indian Veterinary Association, Kerala
"Recent research on dietary protein and the kidney has shown that
o dietary protein does not cause renal failure
o dietary protein does not appear to be involved in the progression of chronic renal failure
o inappropriate restriction of dietary protein may actually have an adverse effect on the normal or compromised kidney"

Kidney Failure from the Iams nutrition symposium
“'For years, physicians and veterinarians have treated renal failure by reducing protein levels in diets,' said Gregory Reinhart PhD, an Iams researcher. 'After working with leading universities, we have now found that restricting protein in a dog's diet may do more harm than good by potentially putting the companion animal at risk of protein malnutrition.'”

Managing a Renal Crisis by Martha S. Gearhart, DVM
". . . at least one study has taken several groups of dogs in kidney failure and fed them diets that varied in protein level and phosphorus level. The groups with severely restricted phosphorus lived longer than the groups with normal or high levels of phosphorus. The protein intake made no difference at all in longevity. . . .
"It is important to remember that phosphorus is more important than protein -- feeding vegetables or salt-free crackers to a dog in kidney failure will not add protein but it will add phosphorus."

Dietary Protein and the Kidney by Patricia Schenck, DVM, PhD, Veterinary Nutritionist
"High protein diets cause an increase in blood flow through the kidney (glomerular filtration rate). The myth has been that if the dietary protein is restricted, this will make the kidney work less, and will ‘spare' the kidney from damage. Thus in the past, many have recommended low protein diets to ‘protect' a dog from developing kidney disease. This has been the focus of considerable research over the last 10 years. There has been no scientific evidence to support this theory. The feeding of low levels of dietary protein are NOT protective against the development of kidney disease.
"Reducing dietary protein in the older pet will not protect them from the development of renal disease. In fact, reducing the protein in the older dog's diet may have adverse effects. As pets age, their ability to utilize nutrients decreases. The older pet actually requires a higher level of protein to maintain its body stores of protein than does the younger adult dog. . . .
"Dietary protein restriction is appropriate in renal failure when the disease has become severe. Restriction of protein is based on the appearance of clinical signs. It has been recommended to start protein restriction when the dog's BUN (blood urea nitrogen) is greater than 80 mg/dL [28.6 mmol/L], and the serum creatinine is greater than 2.5 mg/dL [221 µmol/L]. Both BUN and serum creatinine are good indicators of kidney function. Protein is restricted in an attempt to keep the BUN below 60 mg/dL [21.4 mmol/L]. Dietary protein may need to be gradually decreased over time as renal failure progresses."

Effects of low phosphorus, medium protein diets in dogs with chronic renal failure
"In this study, 60 dogs with early CRF were fed either Medium Protein Diet, (CMP group) or a home-made diet (HMD group) which respectively contained 0.36% phosphorus, 27% protein, and 0.38% phosphorus, 21.5% protein on a dry matter basis, over a 28 week period. . . .
"From the results of this study, it can be concluded that many dogs with mild to moderate CRF can benefit from early diagnosis of the condition and dietary management using a diet with a low phosphorus and moderate protein content."

Dietary Protein by Dr. Jeff Vidt, specialist in Chinese Shar-Pei and Renal Amyloidosis

 "Increased levels of dietary protein do not seem to change rate of progression of kidney failure. Protein levels in the diet do not seem to affect mortality, rate of progression of uremia or the development of kidney lesions.

 Decreased protein levels in the diet may impair immune responses, decrease hemo-globin levels, cause anemia, decrease total protein levels and result in muscle wasting. . . .

 Dietary protein levels do not appear to be involved in the progression of renal disease or play a role in the prevention of kidney failure. . . .

 When the BUN is greater than 75mg/dl [26.8 mmol/L] and/or signs of uremia develop, moderate protein restriction is indicated to decrease the BUN and the clinical signs. Phosphorus restriction is also indicated at this time."

Protein Restriction and Kidney Disease Extracts from Kirk's Current Veterinary Therapy XII, with links to a number of abstracts:
"In perhaps the most noted clinical trial examining effects of high protein diet on progression of CRD, groups of dogs diagnosed with CRD were fed either high protein diets or low protein diets. No significant difference was observed in the rate of progression of CRD in the high-protein group compared to the low protein group. Therefore, excess protein in the diet did not appear to compromise renal function even in the presence of high endogenous levels of protein associated with the disease. In fact, on an individual basis some of the CRD dogs in the high protein diet group faired better. This finding was postulated to be associated with the fact that protein is required for cellular repair and function."

Note that the above sites are from very traditional sources, including Purina and Iams. I think Hills is the only company still toeing the "low protein" line. The thinking now is that low protein can actually be harmful, and that a moderate amount of high quality protein is desirable for dogs with kidney disease. In addition, feeding reduced protein to dogs with normal kidneys does not help prevent kidney failure.

See http://lpi.orst.edu/infocenter/minerals/phosphorus/ for (human oriented) information on phosphorus and what excess levels in the blood do.

otter
January 11th, 2008, 10:50 PM
Wow rainbow that is sure some answer! :thumbs up I have to commend Orjen for taking questions so seriously.

rainbow
January 11th, 2008, 11:27 PM
Wow rainbow that is sure some answer! :thumbs up I have to commend Orjen for taking questions so seriously.

I agree....Peter took a lot of time to put all that information together. That's great customer service, I would say. :thumbs up

luckypenny
January 11th, 2008, 11:39 PM
:eek: I am SO impressed. Even though we don't feed kibble, what a wealth of information all in one place. :pawprint: :pawprint: :pawprint: :pawprint: :pawprint: Five paws up for Orijen's customer service :thumbs up .

rainbow
January 12th, 2008, 01:56 AM
Yeah, I think I should repost his reply in the Food Forum. :thumbs up

budboybudboy77
January 13th, 2008, 01:06 PM
Many thks RAINBOW a good read i had.
I'll feed my pup about 1 cup a day of orijen puppy food with a mix of another for a month or 2 and see how it goes.

thks

rainbow
January 13th, 2008, 02:16 PM
Good luck....let us know how he does. :goodvibes:

budboybudboy77
January 14th, 2008, 07:34 PM
I sure will keep up to date , thks again