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Tabitha and her peeing!!

Winston
December 29th, 2007, 06:38 PM
So I have not really done too much since the last round of medicine from the vets for Tabitha's urine problem...I have heard nothing from my vet at all..Not even a follow up with how is she doing? Nothing! I guess I didnt expect it either! So I decided to see what happens with her and peeing on Winston's beds or blankies..Its has been probably close to 3 weeks since I left one on the floor (unless supervised) and no problem....Yesterday I put a blanket down for Winston and I turned my head for a second and she had done her deed! So I wash the blankie and today we are replacing the vinyl tiles at the side door..Cats are sleeping! I get the blankie for Winston..after awhile I look up and she is sitting there watching me! I immediately get up and go look on the blanket and sure as heck she pee'd on it today...

I am really believing it is behavoural now! Even thought she had blood in her urine....I think I am going to book her for another urine test and see what it shows now?

Cindy

krdahmer
December 29th, 2007, 06:50 PM
I hope the test shows it's nothing physical... they can be very persistent once they find a place they like to pee.... even now I can't leave the matress unattended unless it is covered with the matress cover and a sheet set... only a few minutes and Windy starts circling to pee on it. I have no idea why but she only does it on the bare matress. :shrug:

sugarcatmom
December 29th, 2007, 07:43 PM
I still wouldn't rule out idiopathic cystitis. The presence of blood is what makes me think it can't entirely be behavioural (although stress is a component of cystitis, so I guess in that sense it could be considered psychological). One treatment being tried (although there haven't been any studies on it's efficacy in cats) is amitriptyline (aka Elavil), an anti-depressant with anti-inflammatory properties. But the biggest remedy for cystitis is a wet food diet. Have you had any more luck getting Tabitha to eat canned? I really think it's important to keep trying. The biggest trick to success in making the switch is to pick up all dry food so that there's no more free-feeding. Cats that snack all day just aren't going to be hungry enough otherwise. Here's some more info from this site: http://www.newmanveterinary.com/flutd.html

Type II ("Idiopathic Interstitial Cystitis"):

This is the most common form of non-obstructive lower urinary tract disease! The cause(s) is unknown but in humans with this disease, it is thought that the immune system is "reacting" to (or "attacking") the lower urinary tract and this phenomenon causes painful inflammatory lesions to develop in the bladder wall (i.e.this is an "autoimmune" disease). The vast majority of cats are presented for inappropriate urination but usually there is no sign of urgency, increased frequency or any other indications of a medical problem. Indeed, urinalysis is usually normal and urine is sterile (occasionally one may see a small amount of blood). Unfortunately these animals are frequently misdiagnosed with behavioral urinary incontinence (they are thought to have a psychological "issue"). There is, however a medical problem! Clues that a medical problem exists, if present, are subtle and may include an area of the abdomen where hair has been chewed (perhaps a futile attempt to "relieve" discomfort in the area) or "verbal" or physical indication that the abdomen is painful when touched. Historically, most (>75%) of cats with this type of disease consume either exclusively or predominantly dry food! The composition of the dry diet does NOT matter. This means that even cats placed on prescription diets are suseptible.

Diagnosis ...These type II- affected cats have Idiopathic (Interstitial) Cystitis (this means the bladder is inflamed and the cause is unknown); this condition is an all too common occurence in humans..especially women. It is now being recognized with increasing frequency in our pet cats...male and female individuals. Diagnosis is extremely difficult without either special instruments (urethrascope/cystoscope) or surgical exploration and biopsy of the bladder. Simple and special (contrast) x-rays, though helpful can provide only a presumptive diagnosis. When bladder wall is viewed by either of the aforementioned special techniques, a unique inflammatory/hemorrhagic pattern is observered (called "glomerulations")..which is considered diagnostic of the syndrome.

Treatment.... Available data suggests that a moist diet should be fed to these cats. If a cat will only eat kibble then moistening this as well as encouraging additional water consumption may also be beneficial. In addition, some advocate use of the antidepressant, amitriptylline (Elavil®), though there is no scientific data authenticating its efficacy. It is postulated that (in theory) this drug relieves bladder inflammation and pain by acting as both a potent antihistamine and also as an antispasmodic and that, psychologically, it may diminish some anxiety associated with the condition (and reduce stress).

Some are advocating glycoseaminoglycan ("gag") therapy as well. In human interstitial cystitis, these molecules appear to be deficient in the bladder lining, possibly allowing urine to seep into and irritate sensitive bladder tissue. The drug Elmiron ® has been approved for precisely this purpose in humans. Whether this is an important therapeutic option in veterinary medicine is unclear at this time, but several veterinarians are reporting, anecdotally, some positive effects of Elmiron ® .

In addition to these possible remedies, a few cats will benefit from some form of pain management. At a recent veterinary meeting (TNAVC 2004) data were presented showing that the use of oral butorphanol seemed to make some cats more comfortable (though it had no positive benefit on the intensity nor the progression of bladder inflammation).

Finally...and most importantly...most FLUTD-affected cats will go into (and out of) remission periodically whether we intervene or not!

rainbow
December 29th, 2007, 07:55 PM
Another very informative post, Sugarcatmom. :thumbs up

Winston
December 29th, 2007, 08:07 PM
Sugarcatmom! thanks again! But I am curious? Would the cystogram have not ruled that out? The vet pointed out the bladder as being perfect when she showed us the results. She said that the bladder wall appeared fine.

As for the dry food..I just cant do it..They are so small and finicky.I am worried they would be really hungry!! .The only wet food I get into them is the Merricks Chicken Pot Pie because it is mostly liquid. They both lick up all the juice and leave the chunks. Bomber seems to be enjoying the wet more than her.

Everything I have been reading has been leading me to believe that it is Cystitis as well??? She eats normal, uses the litterbox, one thing I have noticed is she is either really gasy lately or she has issues with her stool..I can hear her going from across the room while doing laundry and it doesnt sound too pleasant?? very soft.

Cindy

sugarcatmom
December 30th, 2007, 08:39 AM
Would the cystogram have not ruled that out? The vet pointed out the bladder as being perfect when she showed us the results. She said that the bladder wall appeared fine.

Well, this is where it gets fuzzy for me, but from what I've read, you need a cystoscope (bladder is filled with water and a small camera inserted to view bladder wall) in order to see the glomerulations that would diagnose cystitis. The cystogram is an xray of the bladder and would not necessarily show the glomerulations. I suppose that most vets probably don't have the capability to do a cystoscope and you'd have to see a specialist ($$$). This site has some good info: Diagnosis and Medical Treatment of Non-Obstructive Feline Lower Urinary Tract Disease (http://www.iamscompanybreeders.com/bronline/en_US/jhtmls/nutrition_library/BO_NutritionLibrary_Detail_Page.jhtml?li=en_US&pti=NL&sc=C&articleID=221)

Cystoscopy allows documentation of cystitis, evaluation of the region of the urachus, and detection of small urinary stones.The degree of vascularity, edema, and submucosal petecchiations (“glomerulations”;Figure 14) in the bladder can help assess the severity of cystitis. The observation of glomerulations at 80 cm water pressure is characteristic of interstitial cystitis in the absence of other diagnoses.

Cats with a true urinary behavior disorder have a history of inappropriate urinations without evidence of irritative voiding (no pollakiuria, gross hematuria, vocalizing during urinations, dysuria or stranguria). Urinalysis should not exhibit excess blood or protein, and no opaque calculi are seen on survey radiographs. Radiographic contrast procedures, ultrasonography, and cystoscopic evaluation of the bladder should be normal. Unfortunately, in the absence of cystoscopic evaluation, nearly half of normally appearing cats are diagnosed with a behavior disorder, when in reality, there is evidence of bladder inflammation when evaluated by cystoscopy. There appears to be a crossover between urinary behavior and inflammatory disorders of the lower urinary tract. One common connection is the ability of stress to incite or perpetuate either condition.


As for the dry food..I just cant do it..They are so small and finicky.I am worried they would be really hungry!! .The only wet food I get into them is the Merricks Chicken Pot Pie because it is mostly liquid. They both lick up all the juice and leave the chunks.

But hungry is good! You can use that to your advantage. You've tried pate type foods, right? If you add extra water so that it's a pudding texture, the cats can lap it up. Also, it's perfectly fine to leave the canned food out for them to come back to throughout the day. Crush some kibble and sprinkle on top if they're being picky. Obviously don't let them go without eating anything for more than 24 hours, but get creative in your enticements. Bonito flakes (aka Kitty Kaviar (http://www.kittykaviar.com/)) are irresistible to most cats. Powdered freeze-dried chicken or salmon makes a good top-dressing, as does crumbled liver treats. Some cats like parmesan cheese. Plain meat baby food (no onions) can be mixed with canned in slowly decreasing amounts. Trust me, I've had to pull out all the tricks at some point in converting my dry-food addict over to wet, but it was well worth the effort. If I can do it, so can you!

Because the underlying cause(s) of this disorder are unknown, a combination of recommendations is usually offered including a discussion of litter box management, how to clean soiled areas, and what normal cat behaviors and activities might benefit this cat. Changes in diet, increased water intake, provision of pain relief, and drug therapy are also considered. Increasing water intake to dilute urine and increase frequency of urination is an important part of treatment. One mechanism for this benefit may be the dilution of the noxious components of urine that gain access to the bladder wall as a result of increased bladder permeability.

chico2
December 30th, 2007, 08:54 AM
Winston,my cats also will not eat any chunky or sliced canned food,they only eat the pate type and it has to be softish,I usually add a little warm water if it's not.
Having cats that spray and mostly in the same area,I understand how you feel:wall:
I bought a Feli-Way diffuser from Pet-Smart for one room and another from Pet-Value made by Nutri-Vet for the room they spend most time in and it works,but only if it is a behaviour problem,not physical.

badger
December 30th, 2007, 09:46 AM
When I serve my cats chunks, I mash them into the gravy, otherwise they lick off the gravy and leave the rest. Have you thought of giving your girl some cranberries for her bladder? I believe it comes in a powder. There are also homeopathic meds. Plus the Feliway spray, would that deter her? I find vets quite hopeless with chronic ailments, as are most doctors. Obviously, if there is still blood, meds will be needed, but don't let yourself be strong-armed into endless antibiotics, it will only make things worse.

Plastic bags are the killer in my house. Leave one down, someone's gonna mistake it for a plant and water it :laughing::laughing:

TeriM
December 31st, 2007, 03:09 AM
I would definately try a raw diet with her. My cat Fred had an ongoing "ideopathic cystitis" and if memory serves correctly (not entirely sure) he was on amyltriptoline as discussed by sugar-car mom. It did help him but greatly affected his personality, he was far less social. The only thing that completely cured the issue (over 3 years now) was when we switched him back to raw food :shrug:.

chico2
December 31st, 2007, 08:53 AM
I've read soo much here about feeding raw,it almost make me feel guilty for taking the easy way out,feeding canned:sad:
As if I am doing something bad to my boys.:yell:
I've tried raw in bits and pieces,Vinnie and Rocky will eat some,but Chico absolutely not..he does not even eat Tuna.

Winston
December 31st, 2007, 09:03 AM
I know I feel the same way Chico! Its funny because I never thought I would ever hear of a cat that doesn't eat canned food, let alone raw? But you know my vet told me 11 years ago that kibble was the only way to go because soft rots their teeth and thats what I did since they were 3 months old? now thats all they eat!! and I have tried but no way! I have tried to fatten them up as well over the years but for a little over 10 years now they have always been the same weight each year Tabitha weighs in at 6.2 lbs and Bomber has always been 8.4 lbs..they never have gone up or down??

Yesterday I gave them quite a bit of canned and they lick up the juice...but I think its affecting their poop now as it is really runny..:yell:

Cindy

TeriM
January 2nd, 2008, 01:22 AM
I've read soo much here about feeding raw,it almost make me feel guilty for taking the easy way out,feeding canned:sad:
As if I am doing something bad to my boys.:yell:
I've tried raw in bits and pieces,Vinnie and Rocky will eat some,but Chico absolutely not..he does not even eat Tuna.

I'm sorry that wasn't my intention :sad:. Desi did fine on kibble/canned but Fred was a nightmare! If it works well then stick with what you have but Tabitha seems to really have an ongoing issue so trying a raw diet would definately be a good idea IMO :).

chico2
January 2nd, 2008, 07:56 AM
Oh no Teri,don't be sorry,it was not meant as critic:sorry:
If we have a food issue,I would definetly go the extra mile and try raw,but so far so good in the Chico household:cat:

14+kitties
January 2nd, 2008, 08:05 AM
I have used the baby food (chicken and broth, no onions or garlic) to get Squeak to eat. Not just canned food, any food in her case. She was so tiny for a long time. She still only weighs 3 lbs at 5 months. She loved the baby food and then I started mixing it with more and more canned. Not easy to do with 13 other kitties at the time being curious and saying "where's mine". But now she scarfs down her food along with everyone else. :D